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Building Bridges in Grand Rapids
2 Plays7 days ago
Ethan Daly is joined by Ryan Waalkes and Christy Carlin Knetsch to share about how God is moving in their city of Grand Rapids. They reflect on the history of Grand Rapids, what it means to pursue peace and belonging instead of mere civility or niceness, and the power of reconciliation in action.
Learn more about the CCDA Conference and make plans to join us in Grand Rapids this November at ccda.org/conference. And discover ways to connect with like-minded people through CCDA’s local and affinity networks at ccda.org/connect.
With over two decades of experience as a social entrepreneur, Ethan Daly has dedicated his career to empowering community leaders and building ecosystems of opportunity. As co-founder of Sunshine Enterprises in Chicago, he helped grow an entrepreneur support organization that equips hundreds of emerging entrepreneurs each year with the tools to launch and scale businesses. He also served as U.S. Regional Director for Partners Worldwide, a global NGO focused on ending poverty through business. In 2022, Ethan joined Stand Together Foundation, where he currently serves as Senior Director of Bridging Divides. In this role, Ethan leads collaborative initiatives that bring together ideologically diverse leaders to solve community challenges, reduce toxic polarization, and promote a shared American identity. His work reflects a deep commitment to inclusive economic development, civic dialogue, and the transformative power of local leadership.
Ryan is the founder and executive director of Bridge Street Ministries, a Christ-centered, urban youth development organization in Grand Rapids, MI. He and his wife have five beautiful children and have been living out CCD principles for over 20 years. Ryan is a part of the CCDA national leadership cohort 8, serves on the Local Advisory Team for the 2025 CCDA national conference, and serves as one of the Grand Rapids local network connectors.
Inspiring others to know that in Christ, the past does not have to determine the future is the mission statement that has guided the career of Christy Carlin Knetsch (Kah-Net-Ch). Originally from the Pittsburgh area, where she was raised to cheer like a maniac for the Steelers, Christy started her career as a social worker and then spent 18 years as a youth pastor and community organizer at Madison Church, where one of her favorite things was driving a 12-passenger van filled with teenagers. After wrapping up six years of service as an Executive Director at New City Kids, she now serves in Philanthropy as a Program Officer at a local foundation. She is passionate about empowering leaders of all ages, promoting equity, and shaping the systems that influence the trajectory of a young person’s life. She lives in Grand Rapids with her husband Brad and their wild and wonderful kiddos, Isaiah, Solomon, and Simone. A graduate of Calvin University with a BA in Psychology/English/Gender Studies, she also holds a Masters Degree in Organizational Leadership from Cornerstone Seminary’s Urban Cohort Program.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Excitement
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CCDA podcast.
00:00:12
Speaker
My name is Ethan Daly, a longtime CCDA member and community practitioner, and I get to be the host for this episode.
00:00:21
Speaker
And today is really special because I'm joined by two very special guests.
00:00:26
Speaker
We're going to share about the ways God is moving in our city of Grand Rapids.
00:00:30
Speaker
Of course, Grand Rapids is where we call home.
00:00:33
Speaker
We are here in West Michigan.
00:00:34
Speaker
So this just so happens to be a beautiful time of year with the changing of the seasons, the fall foliage coming out, all the beautiful colors.
00:00:43
Speaker
West Michigan is really beautiful this time of year.
00:00:45
Speaker
And so, Martha, I want both of the guests to introduce themselves.
00:00:50
Speaker
I want you to give your name.
00:00:51
Speaker
how long you have lived in Grand Rapids, and then one thing that you're currently excited about, whether that be with the changing of the seasons here in West Michigan or with your current work.
00:01:02
Speaker
So you can share about either of those.
Grand Rapids Weather and Youth Programs
00:01:04
Speaker
But Ryan, I'll kick it off to you to go ahead and start first.
00:01:08
Speaker
Thanks, Ethan.
00:01:09
Speaker
Ryan Walkus, executive director of a youth development organization called Bridge Street Ministries.
00:01:16
Speaker
I've been living here in Grand Rapids my whole life.
00:01:19
Speaker
I've been doing this work for about 20 years.
00:01:22
Speaker
And, you know, in Grand Rapids here, it is beautiful weather.
00:01:27
Speaker
And we get about three of these weeks a year.
00:01:30
Speaker
And so I am, you know, I'm really excited for one of the three great weather weeks that we have this year.
00:01:37
Speaker
And, you know, I apologize for everybody coming into Grand Rapids in November when it may be snowing or who knows what it's going to be.
00:01:46
Speaker
I just, we don't ever apologize for Grand Rapids for the weather here.
00:01:49
Speaker
It is what it is.
00:01:50
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I'm excited.
00:01:52
Speaker
We, you know, we love this time of year.
00:01:54
Speaker
Um, uh, excited.
00:01:56
Speaker
We've got program launch happening in just a couple of weeks with young people.
00:01:59
Speaker
And, you know, this, this space, our team's been just spending some time refreshing the summer and planning and, you know, the space will be buzzing with, with young people in, uh, in just a week or two.
00:02:09
Speaker
And so just excited to be back with young people.
00:02:12
Speaker
And
NFL Season and School Year Anticipation
00:02:13
Speaker
my name is Christy Carlin-Kanich.
00:02:15
Speaker
I have been in Grand Rapids for the last 28 beautiful years.
00:02:21
Speaker
And one thing that I am just over the moon excited about is that I can cheer for my Pittsburgh Steelers.
00:02:28
Speaker
I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
00:02:29
Speaker
And so NFL season is upon us.
00:02:33
Speaker
I got a draft tomorrow night for my fantasy league.
00:02:36
Speaker
And my children and I are eager to participate again this year.
00:02:41
Speaker
And I'm also really thrilled that today was the first day of school.
00:02:44
Speaker
Although this recording will come out a little later, I'm very excited that the season of school is upon us.
00:02:52
Speaker
Yes, we are all excited about that.
00:02:55
Speaker
I sent my kids off this morning.
00:02:57
Speaker
Wonderful time.
00:02:58
Speaker
We have a nice quiet house.
00:03:00
Speaker
We get our house back.
00:03:01
Speaker
It's wonderful.
00:03:02
Speaker
And so, Christy, it sounds like you're also not a Detroit Lions fan, just so we're clear on the record.
00:03:07
Speaker
Is that correct?
00:03:08
Speaker
To be clear, for the record, I am of the opinion that everyone should cheer for the Lions.
00:03:13
Speaker
They need a Super Bowl.
00:03:16
Speaker
We should all be behind them in that endeavor.
00:03:19
Speaker
And we'll see how the Lord loves the righteous this year.
00:03:26
Speaker
Perfectly diplomatic answer of you, Christy.
00:03:28
Speaker
That's wonderful.
00:03:30
Speaker
Very much appreciate representing Michigan there.
Building Bridges in Grand Rapids
00:03:33
Speaker
Love it.
00:03:33
Speaker
So each episode, there's a theme.
00:03:36
Speaker
And the theme for today's discussion is about building bridges, building bridges in the city.
00:03:43
Speaker
So we explore that from many perspectives between neighborhoods, between communities, across generations, across ideologies,
Historical Context of Grand Rapids
00:03:53
Speaker
right?
00:03:53
Speaker
Across lines of difference.
00:03:55
Speaker
But to understand the city today, we want to look back at the history.
00:03:59
Speaker
We want to explore the history alongside the central idea of reconciliation.
00:04:06
Speaker
So as we understand that, reconciliation comes through this biblical concept that we often talk about at CCDA of shalom.
00:04:14
Speaker
That is a position in where we're storing relationships and where nothing is missing and nothing is broken.
00:04:22
Speaker
So here's a backdrop of the city of Grand Rapids as we enter into this conversation.
00:04:28
Speaker
The history reflects kind of two different realities.
00:04:31
Speaker
As recently as 2012, Todd Robinson wrote a book, City Within a City.
00:04:36
Speaker
It was released and a lot of people read it about the city of Grand
Struggles with Equity and Justice
00:04:39
Speaker
Rapids.
00:04:39
Speaker
Really two different realities at work, right?
00:04:42
Speaker
So you have one where, you know, you've got sort of mid-20th century, the manufacturing base is up.
00:04:47
Speaker
There's some urban renewal happening, but there's also school desegregation that's happening, right?
00:04:53
Speaker
Then the manufacturing base starts to decline over some time.
00:04:56
Speaker
But at the same time, you had a lot of CCD groups, faith-based groups, grassroots leaders responding with different models, centering on presence, centering on reconciliation.
00:05:08
Speaker
And then more recently, there was some unrest after the killing of George Floyd.
00:05:13
Speaker
in 2020, and then followed up by the police shooting of Patrick Loyola in 2022.
00:05:21
Speaker
These sort of inflection points highlighted the city's ongoing struggle with equity and justice and the work of building bridges.
00:05:31
Speaker
So alongside that history of division, there's another narrative that often pops up.
00:05:37
Speaker
This cultural emphasis on civility, often described as West Michigan Knights,
00:05:43
Speaker
Or Midwest nice, depending on where you're from.
00:05:45
Speaker
But this mindset tends to value politeness, order, perhaps a little bit of conflict avoidance.
00:05:52
Speaker
Many see it as maybe that's a key to helping to keep the peace between different groups and preserve the city's otherwise reputation as being unbearable.
00:06:02
Speaker
family friendly and a welcoming place.
Civility vs. Injustice in the Culture
00:06:04
Speaker
Right.
00:06:04
Speaker
So folks support that view that it falters cooperation and stability.
00:06:08
Speaker
But other folks argue that it can mask deeper injustices and silence the hard conversations about race, about poverty, about inequity.
00:06:19
Speaker
So it feels like harmony sometimes can feel like dismissal to others, raising the question as to whether peace is found in avoiding conflict or pursuing it in honest, open conversations.
00:06:33
Speaker
So with that as the backdrop, Ryan, Christie, I'm really excited to have this conversation about building bridges in the city.
00:06:41
Speaker
So given that we have these two realities, these two stories of Grand Rapids, right, how do you see these narratives overlapping or colliding with one another?
00:06:51
Speaker
Chrissy,
Housing and Racial Division Issues
00:06:52
Speaker
I want to start with you.
00:06:52
Speaker
You've been here a long time.
00:06:54
Speaker
You came from Pittsburgh here, but describe how those realities play out.
00:07:00
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:07:01
Speaker
I look at equity and I think about housing.
00:07:04
Speaker
I think about racial division when it comes to experience with our local police departments.
00:07:12
Speaker
I think about the desire that this West Michigan NICE often contaminates a lot of our ability to see funding go into the appropriate places and really
00:07:27
Speaker
causing folks to think that they have to fight over the crumbs instead of an entire pie.
00:07:32
Speaker
And where we have neighborhoods in Grand Rapids where I think about the most disinvested neighborhoods that we see, where we see the highest amount of rental properties without homeownership to have a neighborhood where people can be housed by choice.
00:07:50
Speaker
Spaces where you have 10,000 nonprofits in one location, but you don't have businesses that are owned by people in the community or not one sit-down restaurant that you can go to or lacking a bank that is in an entire neighborhood.
00:08:12
Speaker
There's not equitable access.
00:08:16
Speaker
And that's signs of disinvestment.
00:08:17
Speaker
That's signs that we've placed
00:08:20
Speaker
resources in certain spaces and we've decided not to put resources in other places for whatever the reason is, right?
00:08:28
Speaker
We begin to look at communities in Grand Rapids as these are the places where we need to go and help.
00:08:36
Speaker
And these are the places where we go to shop or eat or spend time.
00:08:41
Speaker
And that type of division, I think, is where we see these two stories begin to really emerge of where do people want to spend time?
00:08:50
Speaker
Does everybody in our city see those places of investment as for all or just for certain folks?
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:00
Speaker
And when we think about how to dismantle these narratives around our city, the idea that we want to just keep the peace, we just want to try to have harmony in our city.
00:09:12
Speaker
So then it often will end up where people of goodwill are.
00:09:18
Speaker
really begin to own this narrative of this is where we go to help and this is where we go to do life.
00:09:25
Speaker
And so how can we begin to break down those divisions?
00:09:31
Speaker
And I think that's something that CCDA has done a great job of beginning to help us have language for how to begin to address these things.
00:09:39
Speaker
But that's how I see some of those narratives that
00:09:43
Speaker
overlapping and colliding because we don't want to say the thing.
00:09:46
Speaker
We don't often name the thing, but until you name it, you can't address it.
00:09:50
Speaker
And so one of the reasons that I take the most joy in being a CCDA practitioner is that CCDA gives us language with which to begin to name things.
00:10:02
Speaker
the things that West Michigan Knives will often encourage us to just look the other way, pretend it doesn't happen, or not name it because we don't want to offend the helpers.
00:10:17
Speaker
And so how can we begin to change that narrative and get everybody at the table so that we can begin to say, this is the thing we want to see change and we want to make sure that the people who get to shift the narrative
00:10:31
Speaker
also are the people most affected by the narrative.
00:10:34
Speaker
You touched on several important things that are really interesting to me, Christy, because, you know, the idea that Grand Rapids is a city that values philanthropy and giving back and helping.
00:10:46
Speaker
And as a reflection of that, we have a pretty robust nonprofit sector.
00:10:52
Speaker
I mean, you threw out the number of something like 10,000 nonprofits.
00:10:55
Speaker
That might actually be close to the reality, I feel, at some times that we have a robust social sector that you could argue in many ways.
00:11:04
Speaker
But distinct from that is this other aspect of, you know, we help here, but this is where we go and otherwise go about our life and enjoying the city in these other ways.
00:11:16
Speaker
Ryan, you lead a nonprofit that's proximate to right there downtown on Bridge Street.
00:11:23
Speaker
You spend a lot of time in the community.
00:11:25
Speaker
How are you seeing these realities play out as a nonprofit?
Ryan's Personal Journey Toward Diversity
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah, I'm one of the 10,000.
00:11:32
Speaker
To be fair, it's not quite 10 Batson.
00:11:35
Speaker
I think I've heard something like 700, something like that.
00:11:37
Speaker
But we do have a lot of nonprofits and a lot of great nonprofits in a very philanthropic community here.
00:11:42
Speaker
Christy said something that's really a really important distinction of how we view different neighborhoods and different neighborhoods are objects of charity.
00:11:52
Speaker
Others are where we go to spend our money.
00:11:55
Speaker
Even when we look at it from a financial standpoint, some are neighborhoods where we go to give charity.
00:12:01
Speaker
Some is where we go to patronize business.
00:12:04
Speaker
But those often aren't the same neighborhoods.
00:12:07
Speaker
When you listen to the language about the investment in different communities, even the end goal is often different.
00:12:14
Speaker
We've got different neighborhoods who the investment is for crime reduction, which is a great starting point.
00:12:21
Speaker
But is that really the end goal is crime reduction?
00:12:25
Speaker
But that's all you hear about in that neighborhood is crime reduction.
00:12:27
Speaker
You don't hear about neighborhood thriving.
00:12:29
Speaker
And what does it look like for that neighborhood to thrive?
00:12:33
Speaker
And so I think that was a really important point.
00:12:36
Speaker
And again, we work, you know, our organization, our quote unquote target, I don't even like that language.
00:12:41
Speaker
I just haven't come up with better language than target neighborhoods.
00:12:45
Speaker
But the neighborhoods that we work in are disinvested neighborhoods that are the objects of charity and don't have the eye of investment, the amount of investment that's necessary to thrive.
00:12:57
Speaker
And even when you look at just dollars and cents, and again, we have a very charitable, very generous,
00:13:03
Speaker
philanthropic community.
00:13:04
Speaker
So I've got nothing bad to say about that.
00:13:06
Speaker
Well, when you look at dollars and cents and where, you know, the money's going for charitable contributions versus economic investment, they're not proportionate.
00:13:16
Speaker
And if we want thriving neighborhoods up where we're putting economic development investment, the numbers just don't quite match up.
00:13:25
Speaker
You know, people are giving enough money to help neighborhoods survive.
00:13:28
Speaker
Is it the same investment that we're giving to neighborhoods that we want to thrive?
00:13:31
Speaker
And I, you know, I think it's worth even sharing.
00:13:33
Speaker
I've got an interesting personal perspective.
00:13:36
Speaker
I grew up in West Michigan my whole life.
00:13:40
Speaker
And, you know, I grew up in a very monolithic, conservative Christian environment where everyone looked the same, thought the same.
00:13:49
Speaker
We were taught to be polite.
00:13:50
Speaker
And that was not malicious.
00:13:52
Speaker
There was no malicious intent in that.
00:13:53
Speaker
That was the culture.
00:13:54
Speaker
That was the air that we breathed.
00:13:56
Speaker
We were taught to be polite to people.
00:13:58
Speaker
The last 30 years I've lived in the city, and the last 20 years I've lived in one of the most disinvested neighborhoods in the city.
00:14:06
Speaker
Now, what's interesting about the neighborhood I've grown up in is it's one of the most disinvested, but it's also experienced an isolation that's unique to the rest of the city.
00:14:16
Speaker
It's a neighborhood that has experienced political isolation, physical isolation, geographic isolation, and has endured all of the marks and the struggles of poverty.
00:14:27
Speaker
When you look at crime rates, when you look at poverty levels, when you look at educational achievement and opportunities, and yet the neighborhood I live in is predominantly European descent.
00:14:38
Speaker
And so that creates a whole different narrative and a whole different struggle.
00:14:42
Speaker
And it's a neighborhood where it's not West Michigan nice.
00:14:45
Speaker
And I had to learn that language early on where the neighborhood I live in is much more direct and much more frank.
00:14:51
Speaker
And so just even learning that language and now this neighborhood has also in the last 10 years seen a lot of that nasty G word that we don't like to talk about, gentrification, right?
00:15:02
Speaker
And immense gentrification.
00:15:04
Speaker
economic investment that now is also causing other.
00:15:07
Speaker
And so I've kind of lived through it all.
00:15:09
Speaker
I've, I've, I grew up just breathing the air of what we call Michigan nice.
00:15:14
Speaker
And that's just the air that we breathed.
00:15:16
Speaker
And then seeing the impact of that on disinvested communities.
00:15:21
Speaker
But now seeing the investment that's coming in and the other challenges that that creates for those that are caught in the struggle of poverty in our community.
00:15:29
Speaker
So it's a kind of seen the full gamut of this, the implications of this.
00:15:34
Speaker
I do want to touch on the point about investment, but I don't want to go there just yet because I think that it's easy to get there pretty quickly as we talk about like economic disparities, for sure.
00:15:44
Speaker
There's a lot of conversation around things like gentrification and the lack of investment.
00:15:48
Speaker
in a lot of the neighborhoods that we're talking about.
00:15:50
Speaker
But I want to go back to a certain point before we go there, and that's the idea of the faith culture, the church culture in West Michigan, and how that looks from one community to the next.
00:16:04
Speaker
So we're talking about reconciliation across neighborhoods, but what about across faith communities?
00:16:11
Speaker
What does that look like?
00:16:13
Speaker
What does that look like right
Christy's Faith and Multicultural Experiences
00:16:14
Speaker
now?
00:16:14
Speaker
Ryan, I'm going to go back to you for a second because you talked about how you grew up in one place.
00:16:19
Speaker
You're now working and serving in another.
00:16:21
Speaker
How has that journey been for you from a faith perspective?
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a difficult one, to be honest with you.
00:16:28
Speaker
Growing up in a certain Christian tradition, which I value and I love and I'm so grateful for foundations that were laid in my life at a young age that carry through today.
00:16:38
Speaker
I'm grateful for the faith foundations that were laid in my life.
00:16:41
Speaker
Inherently, what it also did was gave me a suspicion against anyone that thought differently.
00:16:47
Speaker
Because when we worshiped together with everyone that thought the same, that looked the same, that sang the same, that smelled the same, that dressed the same, that anyone that didn't fit that mold was suspect.
00:16:59
Speaker
Their faith was suspect.
00:17:01
Speaker
And...
00:17:02
Speaker
So a couple of decades now, just living in a very diverse community and worshiping at diverse, different diverse churches.
00:17:10
Speaker
And, you know, our kids go to a very diverse school.
00:17:13
Speaker
I think it's done a couple of things.
00:17:15
Speaker
Um, it, it, it was for a while hard to kind of find that, where do we fit when we, when, when we want to experience the kingdom in, in the, uh, a fuller expression, where do we fit in that?
00:17:31
Speaker
Um, so that was challenging.
00:17:33
Speaker
But it also just gave me just a beautiful appreciation for the different expressions of the Christian faith that exist and just found such beauty in that.
00:17:42
Speaker
And when we are able to find that, it just, it feels like the kingdom when it's not just one single expression or one single color or one single smell, but it is a truly diverse, and I don't mean just ethnically, I mean, in a variety of areas, it just
00:18:01
Speaker
When you find those moments, it just feels like the kingdom.
00:18:03
Speaker
Christy, where do you experience the kingdom?
00:18:05
Speaker
And did you grow up in the church, by the way?
00:18:07
Speaker
I want to ask that as well.
00:18:08
Speaker
Just what has your journey been of that experience?
00:18:11
Speaker
I did not grow up in the church.
00:18:12
Speaker
I didn't become a Christian until late in high school.
00:18:16
Speaker
And so it's very interesting to me because in West Michigan in particular, a lot of my peers, I would say, have gone through a very intense deconstruction of their faith.
00:18:29
Speaker
especially those who grew up in a West Michigan nice culture.
00:18:34
Speaker
When I got to Grand Rapids, I had been a Christian for maybe two years-ish in two very formative years in high school.
00:18:44
Speaker
I grew up with teen parents and I really didn't know how to like look for a church.
00:18:52
Speaker
Like we would say we were Catholic, but that really meant we were culturally Catholic because we were from Pittsburgh and everybody was Catholic in Pittsburgh.
00:18:57
Speaker
And that's kind of,
00:18:58
Speaker
That's who we are.
00:19:00
Speaker
So West Michigan, if you're not familiar, is made up of a lot of Dutch folks.
00:19:05
Speaker
And this was a large space where Dutch immigrants came and established themselves pretty.
00:19:12
Speaker
They're very rooted in West Michigan.
00:19:14
Speaker
The CRC.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:17
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
Or other expressions of reformed nest.
00:19:22
Speaker
And so I came to West Michigan and I'd never met a Dutch person before.
00:19:28
Speaker
And I'd never heard, like not even heard of the Christian Reformed Church.
00:19:33
Speaker
So for me, that was a big culture shock.
00:19:36
Speaker
I went to a university here that had Reformed roots.
00:19:41
Speaker
It was like walking into a space where
00:19:45
Speaker
Like you mentioned the air we breathe, Ryan.
00:19:48
Speaker
I didn't breathe that air.
00:19:49
Speaker
So it was a very, like I sneezed a lot when I was first coming to West Michigan as I began to acclimate to what was life like here.
00:20:01
Speaker
After university, I finished and became a social worker and worked in a large social work setting with young people here in West Michigan who were involved in the systems in different ways.
00:20:14
Speaker
And so I began to see the systems and how they were operating, but they weren't the systems that I had breathed the air of growing up.
00:20:23
Speaker
They weren't the
00:20:24
Speaker
This wasn't the city that shaped me as a young person growing up, but more it shaped my young adult life.
00:20:31
Speaker
And so when I was looking for a church here, I ended up in a space where diversity was celebrated.
00:20:39
Speaker
There was a director of multicultural living.
00:20:42
Speaker
I didn't know church any different than that.
00:20:44
Speaker
And eventually I would go on to become a youth pastor in that same church years later.
00:20:52
Speaker
That is actually when I began to really experience the headbutting that would happen across cultures in the church.
00:21:03
Speaker
when we would show up to an event and we would be, you know, a wide multi-ethnic group of young people and we would be the only ones or we would be one of two out of one, out of a hundred different youth ministries, so to speak.
00:21:20
Speaker
And so what,
00:21:22
Speaker
I really felt like when I came here and I began to do, and I began to be introduced to Christian community development and practices and what it meant to be a CCD practitioner, I was able to have CCDA shape so much of the early formations of who I was.
00:21:43
Speaker
And then when I walked into a room and I had blonde hair and I had blue eyes, but I didn't speak,
00:21:51
Speaker
what everybody thought that I spoke, the inherent understandings.
00:21:56
Speaker
And so that's why I always felt far more at home in the multi-ethnic settings that I was in, because I felt like I came here as an outsider.
00:22:05
Speaker
So we're in this interesting time, 2025, right?
00:22:09
Speaker
This post-election, there is a ton of backlash around the idea of diversity, equity, inclusion, right?
Defining Diversity Beyond Race and Gender
00:22:19
Speaker
That
00:22:20
Speaker
Those three things together are now somewhat anathema to many people.
00:22:26
Speaker
So from your experience, what is diversity?
00:22:31
Speaker
How do we define it right now?
00:22:33
Speaker
Christy, what's your thought?
00:22:34
Speaker
How do we define diversity now?
00:22:39
Speaker
Wow.
00:22:39
Speaker
Defining diversity in 2025, I think, is important.
00:22:45
Speaker
Still a pretty difficult thing to do, depending on the room that you walk in, because it describes all of your personal experiences, your values, the worldviews that arise from the differences in fill-in-the-blank things, whether it's race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, age, ability, religion, denomination, language, food preference, right?
00:23:11
Speaker
Like, then we add politics on top of that.
00:23:15
Speaker
The amount of division that is caused when someone simply wants to be able to be in a room where I'm not going to be around everybody who sees, thinks, or experiences the world the same way I do ends up being diversity to me these days where it's not just all the things I can see, it's all the things I can't see too.
00:23:40
Speaker
And I feel like as a believer, I
00:23:44
Speaker
One of the tests of do I really follow Jesus is often can I show up into a room and love the person sitting across the table from me without exception?
00:24:01
Speaker
Ryan, it seems like Christy is helping us to perhaps broaden the definition a bit.
00:24:08
Speaker
Would you agree with that?
00:24:09
Speaker
Is that what needs to happen now?
00:24:11
Speaker
I think diversity has to be looked at more than just a single metric.
00:24:17
Speaker
Diversity isn't just race, ethnicity.
00:24:20
Speaker
It's not just gender.
00:24:21
Speaker
But it also has to be more than just statistics.
00:24:24
Speaker
I think diversity often is reduced to statistics.
00:24:27
Speaker
As a nonprofit leader, I fill out grant applications and every one of them, I've got to fill out this diversity statistics.
00:24:36
Speaker
And very rarely do people care about, do we love each other?
00:24:40
Speaker
Do we get along?
00:24:41
Speaker
Do we understand each other?
00:24:43
Speaker
You know, what is the actual function and heart of a team?
00:24:47
Speaker
I think diversity often becomes a numbers game and a statistics game, which I think can be equally damaging to
00:24:54
Speaker
If that's all it is.
00:24:55
Speaker
So diversity is welcoming everybody as they are and believing the best in people and wanting to know people's stories, wanting to know that when people are different than you, allowing that to elicit curiosity and interest rather than fear and suspicion.
00:25:12
Speaker
You know, imagine if when we met somebody that looked different than us, then talked different than us or sounded different or had different experiences.
00:25:20
Speaker
And our initial response was curiosity and inquiry rather than suspicion.
00:25:26
Speaker
And I think that then invites conversation and relationship.
00:25:30
Speaker
So I don't know if that answers your question.
00:25:31
Speaker
I do get a little bit tired of diversity just being reduced to statistics.
00:25:35
Speaker
which often, at least in my world, it often is reduced to statistics and people aren't statistics and they're not numbers.
00:25:41
Speaker
They have stories.
00:25:42
Speaker
And I think if we believe the best in each other and actually are curious about people's stories and journeys and value people as image bearers of God and recognize that people that are different than me actually have something to teach me about the character of God that I might not know.
00:25:59
Speaker
That if all I know are people that look like me and sound like me and have the same experiences as me, I really have a very limited understanding of who God is.
00:26:08
Speaker
If we all bear the image of God together as a people, then I should be excited about learning and being in relationship with people that are different than me because that teaches me more about who God is.
00:26:20
Speaker
That sounds incredibly hopeful.
00:26:23
Speaker
And I certainly hope, right?
00:26:25
Speaker
I mean, it's a beautiful vision.
00:26:27
Speaker
So what's an example of that?
00:26:30
Speaker
from your life or from your work, Ryan?
00:26:32
Speaker
How have you seen that?
00:26:34
Speaker
I see that in my team.
00:26:36
Speaker
We have an incredibly diverse team, ethnically, experientially, life story, age, gender.
00:26:43
Speaker
Having a diverse team sounds romantic on paper.
00:26:46
Speaker
It is incredibly hard work to have a healthy, diverse team.
00:26:51
Speaker
Because it takes an immense amount of time and relationship and communication, listening to one another, wrestling with one another, disagreeing with one another.
00:27:00
Speaker
I think that is something that we've lost is this understanding that we can disagree with one another and still love one another.
00:27:08
Speaker
It's actually okay to disagree with one another and still love one another.
00:27:12
Speaker
And our team is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
00:27:15
Speaker
And we have our own struggles along the way, but I can say it's a team that loves one another.
00:27:20
Speaker
And so we get to see that.
00:27:22
Speaker
I just have the benefit of seeing that every day.
00:27:24
Speaker
And again, it's hard, it's hard work.
00:27:27
Speaker
It is hard work to love one another well.
00:27:29
Speaker
I see at a church, people who come together and worship together.
00:27:32
Speaker
And there's all kinds of different diversity, age, race, gender, socioeconomic.
00:27:40
Speaker
And yet there's a common space in worship that looks different each week and sounds different each week.
00:27:46
Speaker
And, but it's a beautiful, beautiful space where there's a common connecting point in the Christian faith and we can rally around that.
00:27:53
Speaker
Chris, can we disagree and still love each other?
00:27:57
Speaker
Is that, is that possible for me?
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's impossible today.
00:28:00
Speaker
That's a million dollar question right there.
00:28:03
Speaker
Right.
00:28:03
Speaker
Thinking back about diversity and just as I'm reflecting a little bit more and listening to what Ryan's saying, diversity isn't often just who's present in the room or at the table.
00:28:15
Speaker
It's often, do people feel valued?
00:28:17
Speaker
Can they engage?
00:28:19
Speaker
Can they have ownership in the life of a community?
00:28:23
Speaker
Can we practice respect and cultural humility in the midst of theological conversation?
00:28:31
Speaker
Can there be mutuality?
00:28:33
Speaker
I think that these types of questions are what are going to, do we even value that or want that anymore?
00:28:42
Speaker
Do we want to feel like we can value and engage people in the life of whatever community, whether it's our team that we work on, whether it's the people at the grocery store, whether it's the community organizing that we're doing, right?
00:28:57
Speaker
It's not just about who shows up.
00:29:00
Speaker
It's really far more about do the people who show up, do they have a voice?
00:29:05
Speaker
Are people who show up engaged?
00:29:08
Speaker
And do the people who aren't showing up for some reason, is that why they're not showing up?
00:29:15
Speaker
And as we think about diversity, I really appreciate what you said, Ryan, around it's not about numbers.
00:29:23
Speaker
And I think that one of the things that has often happened too in neighborhoods in Grand Rapids is we've been counting like, who's person of color, who's white?
00:29:33
Speaker
And that just eliminates so much of the diversity that we actually see present in Grand Rapids.
00:29:42
Speaker
It's not
00:29:43
Speaker
It's not just white and non-white.
00:29:46
Speaker
And I think that that is oftentimes what has been a big driver of conversations because there's so much nuance that diversity welcomes or can welcome if you want to see it at the table.
00:30:00
Speaker
Well, that's the good news, right?
00:30:02
Speaker
I mean, the good news is that we do seek belonging with one another.
00:30:09
Speaker
Despite the division that we see, the good news is that we still, inherently to us as people, we still want to belong.
00:30:16
Speaker
We want to be known by others.
00:30:17
Speaker
That's something that we value.
00:30:19
Speaker
What does that look like in each of your faith communities right now?
00:30:24
Speaker
What does belonging look like right now?
00:30:26
Speaker
I think this will partly answer your question, but it's also a carryover from the diversity piece.
00:30:31
Speaker
I think sometimes in our effort toward diversity, it still is getting people that may look different to all sound the same and act the same rather than actually celebrating who we are.
00:30:44
Speaker
And this can show up in so many different ways.
00:30:47
Speaker
I can tell you a lot of spaces I show up where diversity simply means not a white Christian male.
00:30:53
Speaker
That's like, if you're not a white Christian male, then you're welcome here.
00:30:56
Speaker
That's a real thing in some spaces.
00:30:58
Speaker
There's other spaces where we want to have, again, a lot of different color here, but it's all going to sound the same.
00:31:04
Speaker
We need you all to sound the same.
00:31:05
Speaker
We all need you to dress the same.
00:31:07
Speaker
We all need you to look the same.
00:31:09
Speaker
And man, again, it's hard.
00:31:10
Speaker
It's just hard work.
00:31:11
Speaker
It's hard work to truly celebrate differences and not be afraid of differences, to enter into hard conversations and not be afraid of hard conversations.
00:31:20
Speaker
Again, I'll say to believe the best in one another and not assume the worst in one another.
00:31:24
Speaker
I think if we can just show up and believe the best in one another and not assume the worst based on any circumstances, I think that just, I think that goes a long way.
00:31:33
Speaker
If we can show up and believe the best in people,
00:31:35
Speaker
That goes a long way in creating a healthy environment.
00:31:39
Speaker
I'll piggyback on that and say relationships move at the speed of trust.
00:31:44
Speaker
And one of the things I appreciate about the faith community that I'm a part of is that we don't make quick decisions on huge things.
00:31:53
Speaker
Now, it doesn't mean that we don't speak out or speak truth to power or tell the truth or seek justice, right?
00:32:01
Speaker
We want to pursue healing even when it's messy.
00:32:06
Speaker
But I really have appreciated our church has taken on this form of listening circles where when we're wrestling with something as a body, we will ask people and we'll host a wide variety of listening circles and then look over everything that people have shared so that we can understand the nuance around us and try not to paintbrush something in one giant stroke when it really is
00:32:34
Speaker
a wide variety of small strokes and that make the painting beautiful, so to speak.
00:32:40
Speaker
But that's something that I've seen that in our faith community where it's really shown up is to do just intentional listening with one another.
00:32:49
Speaker
And then recognizing when we do that listening, who didn't show up
00:32:54
Speaker
and then intentionally invite them to the table or say, can we actually sit down with you because we want to hear your voice.
00:33:02
Speaker
We noticed that you didn't show up for any of these listening circles and we want to make sure we didn't miss what you had to share or give you that space.
00:33:11
Speaker
So if you're interested, we'd really like to sit down and hear from you about whatever we're wrestling with in that season.
00:33:18
Speaker
And so that's something that I've been, I've really valued and
00:33:23
Speaker
Even if the church makes decisions that maybe not everyone agrees with, no one can walk away and say we didn't have an opportunity to share where we were at.
00:33:32
Speaker
So that's a way I've seen it shaped in our first community.
00:33:36
Speaker
Something that somebody shared with me
The Role of Diverse Perspectives in Community Discussions
00:33:39
Speaker
years ago that's really impacted me as well is just this idea of inviting people to the table, taking a step back from that.
00:33:46
Speaker
are they welcome to help set the table?
00:33:48
Speaker
I've been to India quite a number of times and the way they eat at a table is very different than the way we eat at a table.
00:33:55
Speaker
And if you eat, you know, invite an Indian person who has never ate at an American table to your table, they're not going to know what to do because they eat with their hands.
00:34:04
Speaker
Do we welcome people to help set the table?
00:34:06
Speaker
Now, I say this is one, we don't always do this perfectly.
00:34:09
Speaker
I don't do this perfectly.
00:34:11
Speaker
But that's sat with me over the years is are we inviting people to help set the table?
00:34:15
Speaker
Often we invite people to a table that's already set, but it's set differently than the way they're accustomed to engaging.
00:34:22
Speaker
I want to talk about having hard discussions, truth-telling, discussing hard truths, creating space for that in our churches, in our communities.
00:34:34
Speaker
How do community leaders start to model a different kind of civility that's rooted in honesty, listening, and repair?
00:34:46
Speaker
I would love to shout out, actually, one of the things that I have seen is a number of our local Black churches have had a number of leaders who have invited a wide variety of other faith leaders from other cultures to come together.
00:35:05
Speaker
and host joint services to worship, and then to also speak out about how do we prioritize justice and dignity over prioritizing comfort.
00:35:16
Speaker
And I have been very, I would say encouraged might be the right word, to see who's showing up and how the invitations are being received.
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:29
Speaker
And that for leaders who are being bold and courageous to say, we're going to lead this effort and invite you to the table.
00:35:40
Speaker
And oftentimes, I think in Grand Rapids in particular, folks are accustomed to white leaders being the first ones to, you know, think about them setting the table.
00:35:51
Speaker
But
00:35:53
Speaker
I've been seeing a new movement rising up where actually we're seeing Black pastors, Hispanic pastors, the refugee community has been rising up and inviting folks to the table.
00:36:07
Speaker
And you had mentioned the killing of Patrick Leoya.
00:36:11
Speaker
And that really was...
00:36:15
Speaker
a catalyst in our community where Grand Rapids is still grappling with the truth and the realities of what is killing revealed about who we are as a community.
00:36:32
Speaker
And who showed up and began to ask questions and say, what does it mean to have a community that is truly multi-ethnic here in Grand Rapids?
00:36:46
Speaker
And knowing that one leader can't be the only representation for an entire group of people who live in Grand Rapids.
00:36:57
Speaker
And I've been very blown away by who's engaged and who hasn't, and also encouraged by who's engaged and who hasn't.
00:37:07
Speaker
And the new questions that can now be asked are,
00:37:11
Speaker
around a wide variety of tables to say the idea of a politeness culture, a West Michigan nice culture where you silence everybody's voice to just keep the peace and equating the idea of peace with quiet and instead defining peace as the presence of justice, that peace is what begins to amplify marginalized voices.
Embracing Conflict for Peace and Justice
00:37:33
Speaker
And that's actually what's going to lead to peace when we're hearing one another and embracing conflict as a catalyst for healing.
00:37:43
Speaker
Ryan, we talk about embracing conflict as a way of achieving peace and shalom.
00:37:50
Speaker
How do we see that playing out over these next few months as we lead up to the conference?
00:37:56
Speaker
I think embracing conflict, it requires trust and relationship.
00:38:02
Speaker
And that takes time.
00:38:04
Speaker
It takes an immense amount of time.
00:38:06
Speaker
I think, you know, this idea of truth-telling was so valuable.
00:38:10
Speaker
But truth-telling without relationship is just shouting.
00:38:13
Speaker
Come on.
00:38:14
Speaker
Say that again.
00:38:15
Speaker
Okay.
00:38:16
Speaker
Say it.
00:38:17
Speaker
Rewind.
00:38:18
Speaker
Take that back.
00:38:19
Speaker
Truth-telling without relationship is just shouting.
00:38:23
Speaker
And without trust, it brings condemnation, not conviction.
00:38:28
Speaker
Right.
00:38:29
Speaker
And and so I think the hard conversations, again, it requires trust and it requires relationship.
00:38:36
Speaker
And when you trust somebody, you believe the best in them.
00:38:40
Speaker
And then you can have hard conversations.
00:38:42
Speaker
And even even when they say something that might be offensive to you, you still believe the best in them.
00:38:49
Speaker
And you believe, you know, this person means well.
00:38:51
Speaker
They just said something that is sitting wrong.
00:38:53
Speaker
So I'm going to ask some questions about that.
00:38:55
Speaker
Rather than making judgments about what this person just said or didn't say, we have a relationship.
00:39:00
Speaker
And I believe the best in this person.
00:39:01
Speaker
I know this person means well.
00:39:03
Speaker
And so when there's trust in a relationship, it invites more conversation and more trust.
00:39:11
Speaker
And without that, I don't know where we go, to be honest with you.
00:39:17
Speaker
I do, you know, I think some of the pastors that Christy mentioned are setting a great example.
00:39:23
Speaker
And the way our city, I mentioned our neighborhood is, you know, we've endured a century of political, social, and geographic divide.
00:39:33
Speaker
And so unfortunately, my neighborhood isn't involved in a lot of those conversations because we don't have a strong church presence here in the west side of Grand Rapids, and we don't have a diverse church presence here in the west side.
00:39:48
Speaker
And so it's a little bit harder, but I've watched from a distance and seen some of those conversations.
00:39:53
Speaker
And I think they are setting a great example.
00:39:55
Speaker
There are a lot of pastors that are setting a great example of standing together.
00:39:59
Speaker
Across denominations, across social boundaries, and showing relationship that's rooted in trust and being able to say, you know what, we're speaking here based on with relationship that's rooted in trust.
00:40:14
Speaker
And we're not just shouting.
00:40:16
Speaker
And I think, too, just recognizing where you have relationship and where you don't have relationship.
00:40:23
Speaker
And I think the Lord gives certain people a platform to be able to reach masses with their voice.
00:40:29
Speaker
But I think those are very few.
00:40:32
Speaker
And I think people are trying to grasp that platform and use a megaphone that has not been granted to them.
00:40:39
Speaker
And that's just causing more division and more confusion and more condemnation.
00:40:42
Speaker
And unless the Lord has granted you that platform where your voice can influence the masses, and there are a few people that have that influence.
00:40:52
Speaker
then where are the relationships that you can work in and build those relationships and build those relationships with trust?
00:41:00
Speaker
So we just so happen to have a platform through CCDA.
Anticipation for the CCDA Conference
00:41:04
Speaker
And what's more exciting is that we get to host the conference here in November.
00:41:08
Speaker
So we know that's coming up.
00:41:10
Speaker
As we move towards that, this is a question that gets asked for every episode.
00:41:14
Speaker
So I want to make sure that I ask it.
00:41:15
Speaker
How do you see the CCD philosophy at work in Grand Rapids?
00:41:21
Speaker
And what do you hope for as the conference approaches that that platform gets leveraged in the right way to model Shalom for the many, many people across different divides that will be converging here in the city of Grand Rapids?
00:41:39
Speaker
So two-parter.
00:41:40
Speaker
How do you see it at work currently?
00:41:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:43
Speaker
And then what do you look forward to in November?
00:41:46
Speaker
There's a couple of levels of that to me.
00:41:48
Speaker
I'll try to keep it brief.
00:41:49
Speaker
I'm excited for what it can mean for the church in Grand Rapids.
00:41:53
Speaker
You know, I've been on the leadership advisory team here and I've been connected with CCDA for many years.
00:42:00
Speaker
And I'm excited for what it means for Grand Rapids.
00:42:04
Speaker
You know, CCDA gave me language when I moved into my neighborhood 20 years ago.
00:42:09
Speaker
I didn't know CCDA existed.
00:42:12
Speaker
I didn't know anything about the principles of CCDA.
00:42:15
Speaker
But I moved into a neighborhood to live in an intentional Christian community and was just trying to be obedient to what God was doing in my life.
00:42:22
Speaker
And CCDA gave language to that.
00:42:25
Speaker
And I hope that it can give language to some other people that feel these stirrings of God.
00:42:30
Speaker
And how do we do that?
00:42:31
Speaker
And I think CCDA does a great job of giving language to that.
00:42:35
Speaker
As Coach Gordon always says, CCDA is not the only way, but it is a way, and it's a good way.
00:42:44
Speaker
And I found it to be a good way.
00:42:45
Speaker
And I love that it's a way of life.
00:42:48
Speaker
And the thing that I so appreciate that I think is so valuable to people is that the principles of CCDA are an interconnected way of life.
00:42:58
Speaker
You can't truly practice Christian community development and say, you know what?
00:43:03
Speaker
I want to do relocation and that's what I want to do, therefore I'm going to do… Or the work of reconciliation.
00:43:10
Speaker
You can't do that outside of the church.
00:43:13
Speaker
Jesus made a way for reconciliation.
00:43:16
Speaker
Without the gospel of Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in us as followers of Jesus…
00:43:22
Speaker
civility is our own.
00:43:23
Speaker
That's the best we can hope for.
00:43:24
Speaker
That honestly is the best we can hope for.
00:43:27
Speaker
We can't hope for actual reconciliation without the gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit in us.
00:43:32
Speaker
And so this idea of church-based
00:43:35
Speaker
We want to do reconciliation.
00:43:36
Speaker
Well, I don't think there's actual reconciliation outside of the church.
00:43:41
Speaker
Listening to the community.
00:43:43
Speaker
If you're going to relocate and you're not going to listen to the community, you're going to do all kinds of damage and harm.
00:43:48
Speaker
So it's just given, I know for me, it's given language.
00:43:50
Speaker
And I think for so many other people, it can just help give some language and some guidelines.
00:43:55
Speaker
Again, as Coach says, it's not the only way, but it's a way and it's a good way.
00:43:59
Speaker
And when you really look into the principles of Christian community development,
00:44:04
Speaker
It's so biblically grounded.
00:44:05
Speaker
It's so biblically rooted and so practical.
00:44:08
Speaker
It's a way of life that you can actually live out.
00:44:12
Speaker
It's also a proven model.
00:44:13
Speaker
You can look at and say, when people have put this into practice for a long time, there's proven fruit that comes out of it.
00:44:21
Speaker
One of the things that I love so much about CCDA is that it is holistic.
00:44:27
Speaker
It's not about a quick fix.
00:44:30
Speaker
It's about long obedience in the same direction.
00:44:34
Speaker
I think that God's vision for Grand Rapids and for cities and communities is exactly that, shalom.
00:44:41
Speaker
Nothing missing, nothing broken.
00:44:44
Speaker
And I'm grateful for the folks who have come before us in Grand Rapids who were practicing CCD long before.
00:44:56
Speaker
It was an acronym or a conference.
00:44:59
Speaker
And it was folks who were truly wanting and desiring to live out a biblical call.
00:45:06
Speaker
to love their neighbor.
00:45:08
Speaker
And when I think about how it's at work in Grand Rapids, like what's already happening, I love when I meet a new organization or I look at the worker, I introduce somebody, I say, hey, this conference is coming.
00:45:19
Speaker
Y'all should be a part of it.
00:45:21
Speaker
And the realities are like, wow, we've been doing CCDA for forever.
00:45:25
Speaker
Like we've already, this is why we were founded.
00:45:27
Speaker
And they don't even realize that there's a whole greater movement that's happening around the country.
00:45:32
Speaker
And so I am thrilled to see practitioners and people who have been
00:45:37
Speaker
demonstrating this idea of a long obedience in the same direction, coming together and realizing they're not alone.
00:45:45
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Another thing I appreciate is it's not one size fits all.
00:45:48
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And so it's a lot more about let's be collective and share what we know so that we can grow the swear inch that God has entrusted to us.
00:46:01
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And when I can learn what you're doing in your square inch and we can visit another person's square inch that they have been tasked with trauma-informed care, youth empowerment, or housing, or...
00:46:16
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all the different ways that they're catalyzing Christian community development in each unique space and place, we realize that we are part of just a greater story that God is writing in our communities.
00:46:29
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And so I am really hopeful that as a result of CCDA being in Grand Rapids, that it's going to A, help folks to see that they're on a journey that is, it's a long journey.
00:46:43
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But it is one that we're not alone in and that not only is the Lord with us, but there are lots of folks who are doing the good work that you're not the only one who is supposed to be expected to get it all done.
00:46:55
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In fact, the expectation is that you can't do it all.
00:46:58
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And actually we need one another.
00:47:00
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And so I'm thrilled to see what networking is going to happen, what best practices, A, that the amazing practitioners in Grand Rapids can share with those who are coming to visit, but also that those who are here will see, look at all the folks who are coming from all over and all over the country.
00:47:19
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There are movements and catalyzers who are practicing relational presence and who are doing life together.
00:47:28
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And no one is alone in this.
00:47:31
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And that we can have frameworks and some shared language that can help us to do the things that God has called us to do to see shalom happen, not just in Grand Rapids, but beyond.
00:47:43
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Christy, Ryan, want to thank both of you for this time.
00:47:48
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And I want to echo that sentiment that as we approach November and as we get ready to host so many other folks here to come to the city of Grand Rapids to share in this longstanding movement, that we are privileged to be among a great cloud of witnesses who have a legacy.
00:48:08
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and a longstanding tradition of obedience in the same direction.
00:48:11
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I love that language.
00:48:13
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And so we have this calling upon us to live out these biblically gospel-centered, rooted principles that we hold dearly.
00:48:22
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And so we hope we welcome folks, and we welcome that time of gathering together to celebrate that legacy and those principles that
00:48:33
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As we look forward to the future and the next generation of leaders that will keep this movement going long after all of us have passed on.
00:48:42
Speaker
So again, I want to say thank you to both Ryan and Christy for being here today.
00:48:46
Speaker
And for those of you that are going to be listening, thank you for listening to this podcast.
00:48:50
Speaker
If you want to learn more about the conference in November, you can check out the show notes for this particular episode.
00:48:55
Speaker
Also, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast everywhere you go, Apple, Spotify, anywhere on the web where you can get your podcasts.
00:49:03
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This episode happens to be produced by our wonderful friend, Sarah Callen.
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in association with Christina Fore from CCDA.
00:49:10
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We will be back with another episode featuring some practitioners who are committed to seeing people and communities experience God's Rome.
00:49:19
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We'll see you then.
00:49:20
Speaker
Stay in Grand Rapids.