Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the CCDA podcast.
Speaker: My name is Sharon Fong Mo.
Speaker: I am a member of the CCDA and have had the honor of facilitating conversations for the CCDA's network groups, which include the ones for the Women of Color Network and the Asian American Pacific Islander Network for several years.
Speaker: I also serve as a strategic communication consultant with Global Service Associates.
Speaker: So welcome to the show.
Speaker: I am the host for this episode and I'm joined by a very special guest, Dr. Foizwa Booker-Drew, and she wears many hats.
Speaker: She's an author, speaker, consultant, and so much more.
Speaker: She's also a facilitator for CCDA's Women of Color Network's Leadership Circle.
Speaker: So Dr. Foizwa, thank you for being here.
Speaker: Oh, Sharon, I'm excited to be here with you.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So what we're going to do is learn a lot more about you because you have a new book called Front Porch Wisdom, Navigating Leadership Pressures and Barriers as Women of Color, which was just released in June of 2005.
Speaker: It was so recent.
Speaker: So congratulations on that.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: I feel like this book is about you.
Speaker: This is like so personal.
Speaker: You have so many anecdotes, your challenges and your ups and downs.
Speaker: And so I'm really excited about sharing this opportunity with the CCDA network and all these people who are interested in your book.
Speaker: Because first of all, the book is so intriguing in terms of the name, the title itself, front porch wisdom.
Speaker: Can you tell us why you wrote this book and why you selected that title?
Speaker: Yeah, great question.
Speaker: You know, when I was growing up in Shreveport, Louisiana,
Speaker: People in my neighborhood had front porches and people in my grandmother's neighborhood, especially, I spent a lot of time with them.
Speaker: And it was a place where elders gathered and they shared information.
Speaker: You saw girls getting their hair braided.
Speaker: You saw people screaming across the street and waving at each other.
Speaker: It was a convenient and community gathering place.
Speaker: And I wanted a book that figuratively created the front porch.
Speaker: I wanted it to be intergenerational where younger women could come and sit at my feet figuratively, reading the book, learning from my experiences.
Speaker: But I also had case studies in the book of seasoned women who,
Speaker: Some were a little younger, but had all this amazing experience.
Speaker: And I wanted folks to be able to sit at the front porch and to get this wisdom.
Speaker: But I also hope that women will then think about how do they create their own front porches?
Speaker: What does it mean for us to create these spaces, these safety nets of support and of security where we feel safe and heard?
Speaker: And so that's really what I wanted to do with this book.
Speaker: Yeah, I know you did that with the CCDA because you actually ran through the series and then the book was launched.
Speaker: And isn't there some sort of story about how you were approached about writing the book because they heard about that?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I wanted to work with InterVarsity Press forever.
Speaker: My last book, Empowering Charity, I had approached them and they said no.
Speaker: And so Baylor University Press did the book.
Speaker: And I kind of went, I'm not writing again.
Speaker: I'm done.
Speaker: I want to break.
Speaker: I want to see another book.
Speaker: And I was doing the leadership circles for CCDA.
Speaker: And Al with InterVarsity Press, you know, was like, let's talk.
Speaker: And so he says, why don't you write a book about, you know, women of color and leadership?
Speaker: And I was thinking at the time, I don't want to write another book.
Speaker: But it was who I've always wanted to work with.
Speaker: InterVarsity Press is amazing.
Speaker: And the titles that they produce and publish, they're amazing.
Speaker: And I thought, how could I miss out on this opportunity?
Speaker: God, obviously you're doing something.
Speaker: And so I'm not going to say no.
Speaker: And so started the process and it was difficult because it was one of those things where I didn't initially come up with it and I knew it had to be very personal.
Speaker: And anytime you write, you're being vulnerable because you're putting out your experiences and hoping that people will accept it.
Speaker: And so to talk about a topic that's so personal for my journey and also in a climate that's very interesting right now for women of color and what's happening politically.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And at the time when I was writing it, we weren't in the situation that we find ourselves in now.
Speaker: But you still don't know how it's going to be received and what was going to happen.
Speaker: And so it was one of those things that I didn't initially, you know, go, yeah, but...
Speaker: God has a way of creating opportunities in the midst of you're going, I want to go this way.
Speaker: And God goes, we're going to redirect it.
Speaker: I'm so glad I allowed redirection because I see how this book has been a blessing to so many.
Speaker: Well, so many questions pop in my head when you say that, because partly it's like, well, my next question was why now?
Speaker: And I think that the times, even this post-pandemic times where, you know,
Speaker: People have been isolated.
Speaker: They haven't had community.
Speaker: They've kind of probably yearned for the childhood days of a front porch or a kitchen table.
Speaker: Or, you know, for a lot of people of color, that is something that is part, you know, the family and friends in that network to be able to let down your hair and cook some good food and eat and just relax.
Speaker: Um a lot of people have been missing that and like you said with race relations and politics and hateful rhetoric It's almost like feeling so stressed out about that But you're calling us back to not only this idea of the front porch But wisdom um, and so your wisdom
Speaker: I guess that's why I thought that your this books felt so much like being with you and and just like if we could put dr. Fosba Booker drew in a book Okay, this makes as much curious about all the things she does and like, you know Booker for the the conference or the workshop or let's do a series a book series and So here's mine.
Speaker: I'm showing a little fangirling here.
Speaker: I don't mean to
Speaker: But this idea of like, hey, the wisdom part, I mean, we can have knowledge.
Speaker: We can put our hands on the keyboard.
Speaker: We have AI.
Speaker: We have all these technological advances to get information and knowledge and learning.
Speaker: But like wisdom is a little bit different.
Speaker: I mean, is that just with people or how do you think that gets developed?
Speaker: Excellent question.
Speaker: You're on a run.
Speaker: I'm like, ooh, there's so much there.
Speaker: Wisdom is from God.
Speaker: You know, I don't think we recognize that in the Word, especially in Proverbs, it talks about how wisdom was there from the beginning, that I, wisdom, was there with creation, and that Jesus Christ is the embodiment of wisdom walking, and that we still get to tap into that wisdom through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker: And so I don't think that we recognize the value of spiritual wisdom and discernment.
Speaker: The wisdom of the Holy Spirit is so important and impactful on our journey.
Speaker: So I think there is the wisdom that we get from God through our relationship with God, but there's wisdom that we get from living.
Speaker: And so there are certain experiences that come from our life
Speaker: And it's important to denote the difference, you said it earlier, of wisdom and knowledge.
Speaker: So knowledge, yes, you pick up reading books.
Speaker: But the wisdom to me is reflecting on knowledge and what you've learned from it and then applying it.
Speaker: And so I've been blessed.
Speaker: And I tell my daughter this because she's almost 25.
Speaker: And she'll talk about, well, how do you know these things?
Speaker: And I tell her, keep living.
Speaker: Some experiences don't happen because you read it in a book.
Speaker: A lot of things happen because you live and you learn and it has nothing to do with intelligence.
Speaker: It's just the amount of time you have to be on the planet to be able to start going, oh, that's why that happens.
Speaker: And so I wanted to be able to, in this book, be able to provide some of my experiences.
Speaker: I'm a nerd, so I wanted to use a lot of data.
Speaker: And I'm like, let's make sure that I'm validating it with also this worldly knowledge.
Speaker: But to combine the worldly and the spiritual and my own personal experience, I think that's what makes the book unique, is to be able to bring in Scripture and bring in God's Word and what God has said and imparted to me through my life experiences, but to also bring in this knowledge.
Speaker: What does the world say?
Speaker: What does data say?
Speaker: And then how do we use that to then chart a course?
Speaker: Definitely, I can see that the book is multifaceted.
Speaker: It's like a gem or diamond where you can look at it from one way, from the case studies and the data that you use.
Speaker: Then you also talk about the anecdotes with your friends and your network and you yourself talking about your vulnerability.
Speaker: And so that's why I find it very accessible.
Speaker: But then the other side is the faith component.
Speaker: The fact that, you know, your faith in God as a Christian, as a Christ follower, like how does that inform you?
Speaker: And so that is very different from other leadership books.
Speaker: They're usually written by white men and women.
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: So your book is very innovative because it focuses on women of color and their journey in learning to navigate these leadership opportunities.
Speaker: I wanted to write something that was so different because even when you see leadership books,
Speaker: they often don't have the faith component.
Speaker: And if they do, they're typically by a white man.
Speaker: Nothing wrong with that.
Speaker: I've learned a lot from John Maxwell and others, but I didn't see our voices represented in this very niche space.
Speaker: And I just felt like we're here.
Speaker: How do we support each other?
Speaker: And that's what I hope the book does is affirm people and their experiences, but also for them to see that your uniqueness is a superpower.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And this idea of just the dynamic of like these voices not being included in the publishing, these publishing houses and getting, hearing those voices.
Speaker: And like, I think about what you're talking about, experiential learning, experiential teaching, much of what
Speaker: CCDA does, the Christian Community Development Association, like moving into the neighborhood, being in community, being amongst the people, all those things.
Speaker: It will not be necessarily easy to find a book that you're saying, tell me what it's like to be in the streets.
Speaker: with the people and then working on these like strategic ideas and like all the different facets and so I'm very encouraged by the fact that you you were able to publish this work because it does showcase like who you are and the people that you're engaging with and we don't see that in published works but I think we're starting to see perspectives of women of color people of color
Speaker: So I'm just so encouraged by that.
Speaker: Me too.
Speaker: It's about time.
Speaker: Yes, about time.
Speaker: And so one of the things that you talk about, like changing this conventional leadership narrative, you provide the revolutionary argument that women of color don't need to strive to prove they belong in leadership.
Speaker: But you take a different approach.
Speaker: And I think it comes from the faith component as well.
Speaker: So can you kind of elaborate a little bit about how you kind of say, well, there's a lot of different factors in this idea of like fitting into this structure that has been created?
Speaker: It's interesting because I remember when I read the Harvard Business Review article that said, stop telling women they have imposter syndrome.
Speaker: Because I remember even in my own leadership journey trying to fit.
Speaker: And one, God has made me an oddity.
Speaker: I think all of us have to recognize that we are odd.
Speaker: He says that we are a royal priesthood.
Speaker: We're peculiar people.
Speaker: So I think in owning that, it's like, well, I'm not going to fit.
Speaker: Then add all of these other identities that come with that, with being female and from the South and Black and all these other identities that define me.
Speaker: I realized that there weren't a lot of spaces that I was going to be a perfect fit in anyway.
Speaker: And so one of the things that I wanted women to own is their uniqueness in God and recognizing that these spaces don't fit.
Speaker: And that's what the article basically said was, you know, as women, you keep thinking there's something wrong with you, but could it be the spaces that you're in that weren't designed with you in mind that make you feel like you're an imposter?
Speaker: So it's time that we stop saying that to women and going, you need to change this.
Speaker: You need to be more like this.
Speaker: And so when you are assertive, then you're called a name and, you know, and it's not favorable.
Speaker: And you you're talked about if you don't speak up, then, oh, my God, you don't use your voice and you're too demure.
Speaker: And, you know, and so what do you want?
Speaker: I don't fit.
Speaker: And so I'm challenging women to do is it's not to say that you don't work in those spaces.
Speaker: I think you have to recognize if those spaces aren't conducive to you and they're causing more conflict and challenge, is there opportunity for you to go, there's something else instead of trying to be the circle that's fit in the square?
Speaker: Is there an opportunity to begin to say, this isn't worth it?
Speaker: It doesn't serve me.
Speaker: And it's not a win for me.
Speaker: You're getting all my talent and exploiting all the gifts that I bring and the brilliance.
Speaker: And I'm not benefiting because I'm told I'm less than, but I'm doing more than you're paying me for.
Speaker: Something's wrong with that paradigm.
Speaker: And so I am hoping that women will begin to, one, see how God sees them.
Speaker: And I use a lot of examples out of the Bible.
Speaker: Like we talked about in the leadership group, I use a lot of examples out of the Bible to say, these women were odd too and peculiar and dismissed.
Speaker: And God used them.
Speaker: And so is it possible that in the midst of, you know, people not seeing you and othering you, that God is using you for something greater and you don't have to tolerate anything that's not serving you and serving your purpose that God has called you to do?
Speaker: Yes, that is so right on.
Speaker: This idea that you have a sense, maybe it is like Holy Spirit, maybe discernment that something's wrong, something doesn't match up, and then to be able to put words to it.
Speaker: So reading the book and having language for it and seeing models in the Bible, as you shared, that's very helpful.
Speaker: Can you tell us a little bit about the Azer, Kenneth,
Speaker: dough.
Speaker: I'm probably not pronouncing that correctly.
Speaker: No, I'm still figuring it out.
Speaker: It's this idea of your reinterpretation of this idea of women being
Speaker: kind of the helper, the help servant of the man, helpmate.
Speaker: And you change it, you reinterpret it with other people who back you up in terms of theology of this.
Speaker: But it's talking about the warrior, talking about a powerful, like, complement rather than dominance and power.
Speaker: You're promoting inclusivity and collaboration because you're saying women are not made
Speaker: to just be helpers.
Speaker: No, we're powerful.
Speaker: We're very powerful.
Speaker: You know, when I started learning about that and doing the research and finding the Hebrew translation of what this means, one, God calls himself that in other places in the Bible.
Speaker: But when Eve is referenced in Genesis, Eve is mentioned as this Ezerkenadu.
Speaker: And the translation is warrior, it's aid.
Speaker: And so God uses it in other parts of the Bible to show military aid and power.
Speaker: And so I think women don't recognize that you're not just a helper, you're a complement, but your complement has power.
Speaker: And I don't think you recognize that your warrior doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to fight and it's to attack.
Speaker: You have power as a warrior and understanding you can pray in ways that can move mountains.
Speaker: I mean, you are a warrior for your family and protecting your family.
Speaker: You're a warrior even with your mate and being in partnership because of the gifting that God has given you.
Speaker: So mine is not to diminish the role and value of men.
Speaker: I think they're amazing.
Speaker: I also recognize that we have value and are amazing.
Speaker: And God created these two amazing resources to channel blessings through for the earth and for each other and for what they produce.
Speaker: And so I challenge women to think about if you were younger and you knew that about yourself, that you weren't made as secondary.
Speaker: As we've been told that you're an afterthought, but you were made with intentionality to have power.
Speaker: how would that change the way that you show up in the world and see yourself and how you see each other?
Speaker: Because I think patriarchy is,
Speaker: forces us to not only look at ourselves as less than, I think we then look at each other as less than and go, yep, you're not valuable.
Speaker: And you see examples of this throughout the Bible of how, you know, these systems create women to attack each other.
Speaker: And we go, yeah, look at them.
Speaker: They don't ever get along.
Speaker: Not again, analyzing, well, what are the structures that have been put in place that create this kind of tension where they feel they have to compete against each other
Speaker: instead of co-create together.
Speaker: Look at Hagar and Sarah, and it's like, you gave me to your husband and now you're mad at me?
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: What is going on with that girl?
Speaker: And so it's interesting to see how that plays out.
Speaker: What would have happened if those women really understood how God saw them
Speaker: Could it have changed their whole journey?
Speaker: And yet we get to benefit from their experiences and use that as wisdom.
Speaker: I think it's so amazing to hear women speak about perspectives that are very unlike the ones that you may have traditionally heard.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: people can say, I've heard that story, but then they realize, oh, if we focus more as these people being the protagonists in the story of their lives, we'll realize that they're not just the minor characters that are in the background to support these heroic figures that do amazing things, but to say that all of the people in the Bible have served a certain role, but they were important and loved in their own right by the Lord.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: This is a kind of a cornerstone concept of that you are worthy.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: You are worthy.
Speaker: You're not trying to earn favor, earn the right for that promotion or other things.
Speaker: It's like you're doing good work.
Speaker: But your statistics that you cited in your book even said that even if they have more qualifications than some of them, then they will be passed over.
Speaker: Women of color will be passed over for promotions.
Speaker: And you do share some very practical insights on how to develop this.
Speaker: I mean, you talk about
Speaker: almost like creating your own strategic ecosystem of support, your mentors, your sponsors, and your coaches.
Speaker: Let's talk about that because some people think about that as kind of the same.
Speaker: It's like, what's the difference between a mentor and a sponsor or a coach?
Speaker: I mean, aren't they all the same?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Could you kind of share more about the differences on that and why these are important people for us to have as women of color to have in our lives?
Speaker: Yeah, I push women to have their own personal board of directors.
Speaker: Because I think our organizations do that very well, but I don't think we do them for ourselves.
Speaker: I don't think I would have ever gone back to school in my 40s to get a PhD had it not been for my personal board of directors who said, get up off your butt, you can do this.
Speaker: And I was like, yeah, no, I haven't studied in decades.
Speaker: I don't want to do that again.
Speaker: And if it had not been for them seeing in me what I couldn't see in myself, I wouldn't have done it.
Speaker: And to your point, people can serve in those multiple roles.
Speaker: It doesn't always show up as you have a coach, you have a mentor, you have a sponsor.
Speaker: Sometimes they're all...
Speaker: three in one.
Speaker: But that's not always the case.
Speaker: That usually is a unicorn and they exist.
Speaker: But a mentor is someone that you glean from their wisdom.
Speaker: I had a young lady who would come in.
Speaker: She was like, you're my mentor.
Speaker: And she would have an agenda.
Speaker: And she's like, I want to know this.
Speaker: I want to know this.
Speaker: I was like blown away.
Speaker: She's like, I want to maximize our time.
Speaker: And I had other people just came in and wanted to talk and listen to me tell stories.
Speaker: But in each of those experiences, they were getting something from me to help them on their journey.
Speaker: All of us need mentors, no matter how old.
Speaker: I still have people do that who are older and younger, that there are things that they impart to me that help me be a better person.
Speaker: A sponsor is a little bit different because a sponsor is really someone that is saying your name in rooms that you're not in.
Speaker: So they're the people that are saying, hey, you need to be on this board.
Speaker: I've already talked to this person about you.
Speaker: So much of my journey has been sponsorship and mentoring.
Speaker: There have been these amazing people that are destiny helpers that God has really sent into my path and said, you need to do this.
Speaker: And I'm thinking, no, that's not me.
Speaker: Go get somebody else.
Speaker: But
Speaker: You know, God has a way of going, no, you're going.
Speaker: And these people really said my name in rooms that I didn't even know existed.
Speaker: And that was the beautiful thing was to be able to have people speaking my name and saying, I believe in you.
Speaker: And they were opening doors.
Speaker: So that's what sponsorship does.
Speaker: And research shows that typically in the workplace, men are the ones who are giving sponsorship.
Speaker: It's legitimacy because women aren't often positions to open those kinds of doors.
Speaker: And so it's a level of validation and legitimacy to move up because we can't always do that for each other.
Speaker: And so thinking about diverse sponsors are really important for women of color.
Speaker: The other thing with the coach, the coach is the person who not only is the cheerleader and says, great job, they often are helping you reflect.
Speaker: And they're going, well, think about this.
Speaker: What about this?
Speaker: And they are serving as a mirror to help you really begin to start seeing yourself in a different way.
Speaker: I think as individuals, we have to have all three of those.
Speaker: We've got to have those people that are cheering us on, but who serve as a mirror and reflect and challenge us and encourage us.
Speaker: But we got to have those people who are also saying, here's wisdom.
Speaker: Don't make the mistakes that I made.
Speaker: Learn from them.
Speaker: And the folks who are going, you need to be at this table.
Speaker: I'm going to make sure that you get in.
Speaker: And I think for women, we can't just expect people to do that for us.
Speaker: We have to also do that for each other and begin to start seeing how do we open doors for one another?
Speaker: Because I think it's reciprocal.
Speaker: Just as we desire and need that in our lives, we have to be there for other people too.
Speaker: Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker: I remember in your book you wrote, senior roles are frequently held by men who may be unconsciously tend to mentor those most like them.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I think it's some paraphrase maybe saying that basically they're going to pick people who look like them and that's why a lot of women of color
Speaker: don't get mentors and aren't considered and so I found in my own life is like I feel more encouraged when I encourage other people I love this idea of focusing more on the relationships and like you talk about circles of influence people that you are coming together with I think for women of color this is part of the culture it's this idea that we are much more powerful and
Speaker: When we are spending time with one another and being able to reflect and share some of the heartaches or the venting or other things.
Speaker: And then the ideas and the resources and the nurturing.
Speaker: I mean, this goes in the territory of your network weaving, but it's the sense of the social capital.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Talk to us more about that power of community, that front porch, the wisdom that comes out of those circles, whether it's like a knitting circle or people cooking at the kitchen table.
Speaker: Or I guess even when people have Zoom calls and they had coffee.
Speaker: I mean, they were yearning for that front porch.
Speaker: They were yearning for a sense of place and space.
Speaker: And it looks like we have to create those, right?
Speaker: Yeah, it's interesting, too, because I don't think we realize how much that's connected to our longevity.
Speaker: You know, when you look at Blue Zones research, all these people live to be over 100.
Speaker: And you really only have one community here in the U.S. in Loma Linda, California, from their research that has a lot of folks over 100 years old.
Speaker: Typically, it's in Greece and Japan.
Speaker: quite a bit as diet, you know, just because of how we, but what was interesting is they found that these people typically had a faith community.
Speaker: So they felt like it was important to be connected to something bigger than themselves.
Speaker: But the other thing that they found was that they had these social groups.
Speaker: that these folks were connecting to people through bridge.
Speaker: So there are over 100 still playing bridge and having games.
Speaker: You know, they said they have a plant-based diet, you know, quite a few of them, and they have a glass of wine.
Speaker: And so, you know, they're enjoying their lives.
Speaker: But a lot of that is because of relationships with people.
Speaker: And so much research is demonstrating that, you know, our health, sickness, illness, all of that, when we're isolated, it also has an adverse effect on us, too.
Speaker: And so I think for women, we've always been community-centered and desire relationship.
Speaker: I think sometimes what's missing for us is the intentionality behind it.
Speaker: So I think we do it organically and we enjoy being around each other.
Speaker: But you see, you know, quite often men are looking at how can I get to know this person because it's going to open this door.
Speaker: And there's a bit more intentionality and strategy there.
Speaker: I caution people to be careful about that because you don't want to also begin to have these transactional relationships that I'm only hanging out with you because I think you can do something for me.
Speaker: And that's dangerous.
Speaker: That doesn't build community.
Speaker: It's using resources.
Speaker: And quite often we aren't going to have these transactional relationships.
Speaker: But what does it mean for us to be strategic and intentional about building relationships with people that
Speaker: to not only help us, but to also help whatever they're trying to do in community.
Speaker: I think it's important for women to be mindful of relationships.
Speaker: It impacts our health.
Speaker: It impacts our ability to move in the workplace.
Speaker: It impacts us on so many levels, and we can't negate the power of social capital and relationship building.
Speaker: I totally agree with what you're saying.
Speaker: And even this idea of transactional engagements rather than authentic, just genuine relationships is so important.
Speaker: And I find it interesting, too, when you're talking about, I think, social capital, wielding some social capital.
Speaker: Could you explain that a little bit more?
Speaker: Because that is intentional in the sense of
Speaker: You're trying to develop this network and, I guess, reputation.
Speaker: And I don't know.
Speaker: You can put words to it better than I. Well, you've done a great job.
Speaker: But social capital is really about networks, associations, its relationships.
Speaker: At the core, social capital is trust.
Speaker: So like in the early 1900s, how the term got coined was there's this man named Hannafin who saw parents talking and they were sharing resources.
Speaker: And he said they're sharing social capital.
Speaker: And the most modern day, you know, researcher around it in 2000 was the book Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam.
Speaker: And he did probably the most comprehensive study on social capital.
Speaker: And what he noticed was several things that communities that have high social capital, people vote.
Speaker: Communities with high social capital, higher educational outcomes are a result.
Speaker: Communities with high social capital, crime is lower.
Speaker: And so there is something to be said about relationships.
Speaker: And I think we focus on financial capital so much and we don't think about the currency of relationships.
Speaker: And I tell most of nonprofits that I'm blessed to be in community with, you don't have a money problem.
Speaker: You have a relationship problem.
Speaker: You get the right relationships.
Speaker: You'll be able to get the resources that you need.
Speaker: And it's not that you're going after people for that.
Speaker: It's to be able to be there, be in community, be kind, just show up.
Speaker: And that begins to start conversations.
Speaker: And so it's helping people understand that they have a form of currency that they don't use very well and they're not intentional.
Speaker: They're very strategic about how they spend their financial capital and even about their human capital, their education and, you know, the stuff that you have to help you, you know, with laptops and phones.
Speaker: Those things are important, but all of those things are connected to people.
Speaker: And so your social capital is a form of currency.
Speaker: How are you using it to really get you closer to what God has for you?
Speaker: Because, you know, I often say this to people, and it's in the book, that when we think about the cross, the cross reaches up to God, but out to man.
Speaker: God was very intentional about relationships.
Speaker: And I remember one day I was in the car with my daughter and I was telling her this.
Speaker: I was like, God loves partnerships.
Speaker: And she says to me, she said, he did it from the beginning because he said, let us create heaven and earth.
Speaker: He chose to do that in partnership with the Holy Spirit and with Jesus from the beginning when he could have said, I'm God, I got this.
Speaker: I don't need you all to be a part of it.
Speaker: God has always been about relationships.
Speaker: Even our salvation is rooted in the relationship with Christ.
Speaker: So if God is so intentional about even working through us, he doesn't need to do anything with us, but he chooses to be in relationship with us.
Speaker: That says relationship is very powerful and has purpose because God knows the value of it and we have to value it in the same way as well.
Speaker: That's so good.
Speaker: Yeah, just this idea also of intergenerational relationships.
Speaker: So one would say, okay, you know, folks who have grandparents around or multigenerational households, they have more of that integration and that involvement.
Speaker: But like over time, you know, we've had nuclear families, we've had people who eat separately or do Uber Eats or like you just don't have that time.
Speaker: So we're not getting that sort of wisdom taught to us.
Speaker: in terms of how valuable it is to have relationships, not just for transactional purposes.
Speaker: We could look at all the people who are working, it's like, what, four or five generations are working at the same time.
Speaker: So if you wanted someone to help you with some new social media thing or technology or something like that, it's this idea of they can teach you, younger folks can teach you.
Speaker: And this idea of when you need a job, it's like, who do you know?
Speaker: who's in that area and field.
Speaker: And so we know this intuitively.
Speaker: I think this is why people go on LinkedIn, they go, oh, I need a job.
Speaker: But other people navigate it differently.
Speaker: They actually know that this is how they can keep in touch and read articles and be engaged.
Speaker: I'm not so great on LinkedIn.
Speaker: I'm trying to get back on that.
Speaker: I live on it.
Speaker: I live on it.
Speaker: I don't like Facebook and Instagram as much as LinkedIn.
Speaker: And that says a lot about my personality.
Speaker: I love LinkedIn.
Speaker: I think it's one of the greatest creations around because of the relationships and the sharing of information.
Speaker: Facebook has become, to me, so much more performative.
Speaker: And Instagram, too.
Speaker: I love the cat videos.
Speaker: That makes me happy watching those.
Speaker: But in terms of the actual interaction, even though it can be very transactional on LinkedIn, it, for me, has been a great way of meeting people and deepening relationships.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And so, you know, I challenge folks even with that as a tool as you may have people in your first level of relationship.
Speaker: Doesn't mean you know them.
Speaker: So how do you use LinkedIn as a tool to be able to go deeper?
Speaker: And we know just through research, you can only manage so many relationships well at a certain point of time.
Speaker: So when people, you know, have 8,000 friends and stuff, it's like you don't know half of those people.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: It's a popularity contest at that point.
Speaker: But the goal is how do we, you know, not only expand it, but go deep where we really are building these transformative relationships that not only change the people we're working with and connecting to, but it's changing us.
Speaker: I think we've gotten so busy that we've lost the art of building those relationships with each other.
Speaker: We see people as a
Speaker: upon in the greater of our lives.
Speaker: And I don't think we see the power of God uses people.
Speaker: And could this person be connected to my destiny?
Speaker: So how do I become much more intentional about how I care for their hearts and how I treat them?
Speaker: Because, you know, when you think about even trauma, trauma is also connected to people.
Speaker: You talk about trauma in your book.
Speaker: I mean, you talk about this aspect of maybe people not recognizing that or I don't know if you use the word self-sabotage, but it's that sense that things are not going well.
Speaker: And it's really like, how can you learn from one another and how can you see different patterns?
Speaker: I think the thing that's so interesting is a lot of us have been traumatized by our jobs.
Speaker: I mean, I have.
Speaker: I've had some experiences in the workplace that have been very traumatic and maybe questioned my value and worth.
Speaker: But I also have to recognize that people who are traumatized and who haven't dealt with their trauma then create more trauma.
Speaker: And so how do we, as people who've been traumatized, unpack it so that we're not recreating those situations for people that come apart of our paths?
Speaker: And too often we are harmed and then we just dismiss it.
Speaker: And then we repeat those same things to people that God has given us to store.
Speaker: So as leaders, you got to be very careful and aware of your pain.
Speaker: and your triggers, because if you're not, you will then recreate those environments for other people to experience.
Speaker: And that's not fair.
Speaker: You know, I'm reading this book called Black Woman Grief.
Speaker: And one of the things she talks about in the book, which just blew me away, is she talks about how Eve was really like the first person that experienced trauma.
Speaker: You know, when you think about this woman who you get expelled out of the garden, you're like, listen, I just asked this man a question.
Speaker: We talked about it in the group.
Speaker: You know, she gets demonized.
Speaker: She's like, listen, you know, hey, he didn't give me the directions he gave it to him, but y'all are blaming me for it.
Speaker: And the fact that she goes through pregnancy,
Speaker: She goes through having sex, having no point of reference of what that's like, because all of us get to talk to relatives and read magazines and we get all this information that informs our decision making.
Speaker: She had no one to be a point of reference for her.
Speaker: You get expelled out of the garden.
Speaker: You have children.
Speaker: You have no point of reference of what's happening to your body.
Speaker: And the book made me think about God knew that was going to happen.
Speaker: And God, even in the midst of trauma occurring, walked with her.
Speaker: He was there in the garden.
Speaker: He was there in childbirth.
Speaker: He's there through all of it.
Speaker: And he's the point of reference.
Speaker: And so it got me to thinking about
Speaker: even in our own traumas and the experiences that we have.
Speaker: How do we make sure that we're allowing God to walk with us, that we're not trying to hold it all and figure it out ourselves, but we're in community with people who can be healing and our testimonies become the source of healing and the balm for what we go through, but also that we recognize God is there throughout it all and he's not surprised or stunned by our trauma because he knew it from the beginning.
Speaker: And he made a path for us to be able to deal with it so we don't have to carry it.
Speaker: And I think a lot of times in the workplace, because we don't recognize that, we perpetuate it on other people.
Speaker: And then we have generations of people who are harmed.
Speaker: The church does it too.
Speaker: And we got to do better.
Speaker: Generational trauma.
Speaker: I think that is an issue for a lot of
Speaker: of women of color who maybe they don't talk to their parents because they don't want to talk about some of the traumas that they have endured in their life.
Speaker: So I do think that when you talk about trauma and you talk about triggers, I once heard it was called like emotional allergy, where someone just reaction is so strong.
Speaker: You're like, what?
Speaker: That doesn't require that
Speaker: anger or that level of upset, but it reminded them of something and they just broke out in more emotional ways.
Speaker: And so how can we navigate these hurts and just be able to say, this may be at play in the workplace, in ministry, and people will have worldviews that are different from us as well.
Speaker: And that's okay.
Speaker: And I think it's one of the things that we have to acknowledge it.
Speaker: When you said the allergy, I thought about it because I have very severe allergies where I have anaphylaxis.
Speaker: And you gotta find the remedy and the antidote for it.
Speaker: And as much as we always tell people to pray about it, and that's important, I think it's also important to have people seek help in dealing with it and unpacking it because we have blind spots.
Speaker: And so you can come up with your formula for healing because I believe God calls us to this abundant life.
Speaker: And if our trauma is preventing us from experiencing that abundant life, we're not getting all that God has for us.
Speaker: And yes, we know that he says you're going to have trouble in this world.
Speaker: Yes, that's a piece of it.
Speaker: But I honestly believe that we don't just pray.
Speaker: We pray and pray.
Speaker: We talk about it.
Speaker: We get support.
Speaker: We get the help we need.
Speaker: We unpack it.
Speaker: We don't place ourselves in those positions.
Speaker: And when we do, we have how do we handle it?
Speaker: So it's about creating the life that God has for us, even in the midst of the brokenness and pain that other people have.
Speaker: And if they're not safe, and that's one of the things I talk about in the book, is that if you're in workplaces that are not safe for you,
Speaker: then you have to question, do you really need to be in that environment?
Speaker: You don't have to make yourself fit.
Speaker: That's not healthy.
Speaker: And I encourage people to do what you need to do to care for yourself.
Speaker: And if that's unhealthy and it's toxic, walk away.
Speaker: Good word.
Speaker: That's really good.
Speaker: I really want to mention this idea of engaging the book because in every chapter you have an interesting ending, which kudos to you and InterVarsity Press for doing this.
Speaker: You share scripture that could be pertinent to that particular chapter.
Speaker: You have a prayer and you have reflection questions.
Speaker: things that people can look at and journal or talk to other people.
Speaker: So whether you did this individually or with a group, what sort of reaction have you received about this aspect of your book requiring this nightland book you read and you put on the shelf?
Speaker: It's really one that you go, wait, I got homework here.
Speaker: Oh, it's been amazing.
Speaker: I had a young lady send me a book and she said, I cried.
Speaker: She said, because I saw myself.
Speaker: And one of the things I've learned is that part of good leadership is reflection.
Speaker: And I don't think we create spaces to reflect.
Speaker: Even in our staff meetings, I'm on a lot of leaders that I coach up.
Speaker: Why do you just go to status?
Speaker: How do you begin to start checking in with people and finding out what's going on?
Speaker: Because people bring all of who they are to work.
Speaker: You can't expect them to compartmentalize.
Speaker: I just had an argument with my partner coming to work or my kid or the dog bit me.
Speaker: And now I'm supposed to show up and be like, everything's great.
Speaker: And it's not that the workplace becomes a therapist, but it understands people bring all of that with them.
Speaker: And so what does it mean to be a leader who's deliberate about reflection for your team?
Speaker: Not when it's a problem or a survey comes in, but you're creating feedback loops constantly so you can learn and change.
Speaker: But also in your individual life, how do you make sure that when you end your day,
Speaker: You end your day with reflection and that's time in prayer.
Speaker: That's time writing.
Speaker: That's time reviewing your day.
Speaker: I remember early in my career, I was dreaming the craziest stuff.
Speaker: And it was my workday was like all of this stuff and monsters were in.
Speaker: And I'm like, what is going on?
Speaker: You know, I won't talk about that boss, but I remember, you know, just going, why am I having that?
Speaker: Because I hadn't taken time to process it.
Speaker: And I think what I'm trying to do in the book is create a habit of reflection and processing so that you're not reading something and then you don't analyze and synthesize the material for your situation.
Speaker: Because everything's not going to apply to you, but I want you to make it personal so that you take whatever you get and whatever God deposits from the book
Speaker: You take that and make it applicable for your situation.
Speaker: That's even the experience that I had being involved in the circles, the leadership circles.
Speaker: You're actually learning from other people in the group and being able to bring that up.
Speaker: And so this idea that this book could be used, that you would be so interested in saying, what does anyone else think about this?
Speaker: That you would invite your friends.
Speaker: You would invite some of your co-labors to come alongside you and learn about this.
Speaker: So it's not just for women, too.
Speaker: I think men could learn a lot from this.
Speaker: Isn't that true?
Speaker: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker: That's who's reading it.
Speaker: It's been so interesting because although the book was written for women of color, it really has an appeal for women.
Speaker: Women who are white who go, this is, so I'm learning how to be a better ally, but I'm also learning, I see my experience in some of this.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I've had men who've read the book and who've said, it's helping me to be a better ally and supporter.
Speaker: I'm seeing things I haven't seen, but Francois, it speaks to me too.
Speaker: I didn't think about some of the topics you bring up.
Speaker: So I wanted it to be a book that even though it's targeted for an audience, it still had a universal appeal.
Speaker: And that everybody could walk away with something and go, aha.
Speaker: Even people who are non-Christian have read the book and have said, they've said, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker: You know, I've had friends who are Jewish and, you know, and people who are non-believers who have said, I got something out of this.
Speaker: This is really good.
Speaker: And so that's what I'm hoping is that people walk away from this book with information that helps them be a better leader and they treat people better.
Speaker: I just hope people are kinder to themselves and each other.
Speaker: After someone finishes the book, what's the sense that you want them to have?
Speaker: Are there any takeaway ones that you really want to say, this is the front porch wisdom that I want to put out into the world?
Speaker: I want women, this is going to sound strange, I want women and anyone who reads the book to go, I have a front porch.
Speaker: I've got wisdom that I can share.
Speaker: I want you to see that you've got stories, that God has not just made me the mouthpiece of wisdom in the front porch, that you too have narratives and stories that you need to share.
Speaker: So you may not have a literal front porch because you're probably driving into your garage and going home, but
Speaker: What does it mean for you to think very creatively about how do I create space for other women to be a part of it?
Speaker: Is it in the break room at work that I'm creating that as a front porch?
Speaker: Is it having this as a book read and I'm bringing a group of women in and we're talking?
Speaker: I want people to start thinking about their own front porches intentionally.
Speaker: And what does that look like to build community?
Speaker: That's what I hope happens and that they share their own wisdom.
Speaker: Doesn't have to be mine.
Speaker: Share your own wisdom so we can pass down this legacy for younger women and even to affirm those of us who are more seasoned that we're not crazy.
Speaker: We have something to offer.
Speaker: Well, you are certainly an inspiration.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: I was also going to ask this question.
Speaker: This is the question we ask every episode.
Speaker: How do you see the CCD philosophy at work in your community?
Speaker: It's everywhere for me because I'm so involved in my local community.
Speaker: So I see Cornerstone Baptist Church where I go to church.
Speaker: I see the work that they are doing and building partnerships.
Speaker: centering biblical-based relationships and making sure that community has resources and they're listening to community.
Speaker: They're not just creating stuff in isolation.
Speaker: It's co-creation with the community.
Speaker: I see.
Speaker: I'm going to give a shout out.
Speaker: So that's my pastor, Chris Simmons.
Speaker: Amazing work.
Speaker: But I also get a chance to see Will McCall, who runs Dallas Leadership Foundation, who's heavily been involved in CCDA.
Speaker: And I see how he's building leaders and neighborhoods and beautifying neighborhoods and the work that he does.
Speaker: I am so blessed because I actually see all the CCD principals at work in so many organizations, even folks who aren't CCD practitioners.
Speaker: They're doing it.
Speaker: And it's like, yes, yes.
Speaker: Yes, you don't know the name.
Speaker: It's kind of like I remember learning about asset-based community development.
Speaker: I was doing it.
Speaker: I didn't have the language for it.
Speaker: It's the same thing I see happening in Dallas, and I'm so proud of this work that's blessing people's lives.
Speaker: Well, thank you.
Speaker: I think that having the language and being able to read about these things and
Speaker: having an anchor and being able to talk about it with other people is so important.
Speaker: And so I truly thank you for your book and sharing your life and your vulnerabilities.
Speaker: And I do highly recommend this book to everyone who's listening to this.
Speaker: It is something that can change your life in terms of your perspective or someone you love, someone you care for, someone you co-labor.
Speaker: So buy the book and give it to them as a gift.
Speaker: I actually have the audiobook version and the e-book version.
Speaker: The ebook version is great because it has all the links and everything and the audio one's good to listen to and reflect on and journal through.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: Any last starting words that you want to say that we didn't cover?
Speaker: No, I just want folks to get the book and be blessed by it.
Speaker: I thank you all for this opportunity to share.
Speaker: Wonderful.
Speaker: Well, thank you for listening to the CCDA podcast.
Speaker: And thank you, Dr. Foswell, for joining us today.
Speaker: If you want to learn more about Frontport's wisdom or CCDA's Women of Color Network, check out the show notes of this episode.
Speaker: And don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker: This episode is produced by Sarah Kallen in association with Christina Ford.
Speaker: We'll be back soon with another episode featuring CCDA practitioners who are committed to seeing people and communities experience God's Shalom.
Speaker: We'll see you then.
