Transcript
Speaker: Worm is a web serial by J .C. McCray, also known as Wildbo. You can read Worm in its original format by visiting parahumans ah .wordpress dot .com or donate to Wildbo's Patreon at patreon dot .com slash wildbo. This story isn't intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass. For a complete list, check the description for all of Worm's trigger warnings.
Speaker: And welcome back to Dissecting Worm. Yeah, yeah. Myself, Jacob joined by Alan as always. Hello, hello. And Michael. Yeah. Are they going to sound good? Here we are. How you fellas doing? Good, Jacob. Good. Are we supposed to? Are we supposed to say take that, you worms? Or like, I forgot how to say we're finished with that. We were going to put that at the end. Honestly, and say it whenever you want. take that you worms, take sometimes i just throw that out there and welcome the dissecting worm. You were, there we go. It's a work in progress. We'll, we'll figure it out by the end of the whole podcast. We'll have a, we'll have a good saying. That's really the point of the podcast is to figure out yeah a good catch phrase. Yeah. And then we have we've, we've BSed the rest of this yeah just to get to that point.
Speaker: We are in arc 17, which is crazy. We are the back half, the back nine, the back nine of this, of the serial, a fun arc, a full interlude arc. i Yeah. I got, I got a lot of thoughts about this arc on its own and so few notes about how to rewrite it. Oh, yeah, no, it's it's funny. there's I mean, I don't want to say this is going to be a ah shorter episode because we've got plenty to talk about. But in terms of this arc specifically and how it would adapt, it would it's would adapt very well. like There's not a lot to change, if anything. It's mostly just placing and maybe some minor tweaks. But overall, like
Speaker: it it good It's kind of, it's like a one -one adaptation. Yeah. You mentioned before, I was like, yeah, like let's maybe we break it up and spread it out throughout the season. You were like, no, I think just have it as its own episode. And you know what? You're right. I read this and I was like, I think this just, this just goes. This is its own episode. I think the big issue It's just where the heck do you put this? Yeah, I think that's where' ah what we'll talk most for tonight is sort of structuring season three, which you've we've already talked about the issues with that and how to rearrange things and then where where this episode would fall.
Speaker: But no, this, this, it feels very much like one of those, uh, bottle episodes, the wrong term, but sort of those standalone episodes in a series that focuses on a minor character in recent television. The one that comes to mind is the episode of the last of us following, uh, uh, what's the same bill and Oh gosh, drawn a blank. Not Ted, yeah but yeah, and I know episode three. Episode, yeah, but were yeah the on the on the two guys. And ah that, how that is separate pretty much from the rest of the series, but it works very well. Everybody loves it for many people. It's their favorite episode. Like it's just, it kind of has that same feel to me.
Speaker: Yeah. I like it. Where it worked well splitting up the could be talked about, and we're like, we could split it up. And we talked about the ah the assault and battery interlude. But the the advantage that interlude had was ah it had jumps in time within the interlude. So it had these really natural sort of splitting points. And this art doesn't have that. Like it kind of just flows. At least not until the end. There's the one at the end. Yeah. I will. I would think there's like, I don't know. What is it? Like, yeah, I guess it is just one shoot. Yeah. Um, there's one at the end and I know later on we'll get, I'm pretty sure we get the, uh, an interlude.
Speaker: I'm pretty sure from coat for, for like Cody, we do like what happened to him. And so I think maybe having like maybe if you want to throw in like what happened to him earlier. Yeah, that's true. We could maybe tie that in now, like specifically trickster fucking them over somehow. You know, I just, yeah, just have that earlier. Yeah. That's something we can, we can revisit when we, when we went in by we, I mean, when I remind myself more of Cody's story. Yeah. Cause it also made me think like, do I, okay. Just in Farsight, do we even want to reintroduce Cody later on? Cause I think that's like.
Speaker: i like I don't care. I really don't. I would try to remember of he how big of an impact on the story he has. In terms of like in the universe, it's a weirdly big impact for something that I don't think really deserves to like be there. um Remind me, it's a spoiler podcast. Remind me. Yeah. It's a spoiler podcast. guess You know, he gets basically so tortured and sold off to the young bod, you know, the Chinese superhero. i remembered that And he breaks away from his group and then kills or attempts to kill everybody in the like command headquarters during the behemoth fight.
Speaker: And it's like attacking like oh the Chevalier and all that right right gets, if I were already gets a few people, um, obviously not Chevalier and others. And I think. Yeah. Yeah. But, but it's just like a weirdly like, Oh, like all of a sudden we're back at Cody and he's like, yeah, man, I've been, I'm really pissed off and a lot of brainwashing and other stuff. And I'm going crazy. And now I just attack all the people in here. Like, okay. Like, man, that was, that was weird. Like in my mind you shipped his ass off and I am okay. Never seeing him again. Like I don't really feel like he adds to the story.
Speaker: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I'd have to reread that part again, but that sounds like one of those scenes where in a television adaptation, you would replace him with another relevant member of some group at that point. I just think you don't have the whole Yangban, like him, whoever character breaking off and attacking the headquarters thing, like behemoths enough of an issue on its own. Like we don't have to have, uh -huh. And unless the point and you know, Granted, it's been a while, maybe the point of him breaking off is that much like the Simerg, you know, it's a demonstration of the Simerg's power. Right. Are we talking them about? Fine. Perdition? But I think, what? Are we talking about Cody as perdition? Perdition, okay. Yeah, as in perdition. Yeah. Yeah. um Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, well, yeah, we'll, we'll it's certainly obviously going to revisit that. I mean, I think you could basically replace that. And granted that's better at showing like, ah, yes, the simmer plays the long game, which is fine. But I think you just go, okay, like man, all of this Noel business, it's almost as if they've, you know, lucked out and got away. Cause the simmer like, you know, allowed it or, you know, planned it, you know, you, you could just. shock that ah up to like, oh, they were exposed to the simmer. You know, that's, that's kind of why they're way crazier than they probably should have been, you know, stuff like that. Yeah. right The only thing to interject, which probably may not matter that much, but, uh, he gets kicked out of the travelers because he like touches Noel three times and makes three clones of himself. Yes. He gets kicked out, but they never show how.
Speaker: in that chapter. Right. Right. word Yeah. Spoilers, obviously. But if we kick out his character completely, are we going to have someone else who does that or does that matter? Because that I don't think we kicked out the character completely. I think we just like when it's time to like, oh, give him the coil. Like coil wants somebody to answer for it. Trickster just, you know, does something Does a little trickeration and shoves him into a box or something like that. Okay. Yeah. but You know, some way that his looping power doesn't get him in there. Like, like even if he can rewind three to five seconds, he's already been in, you know, the transparent box the whole time and he didn't realize mission impossible style. So he can rewind three to five seconds, but he's still in the goddamn box. Sure.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, you're just talking about just just ending Cody's story within the episode, essentially. Yeah. you know Or, you know, trickster fucking kills him and just goes, ah like, I never liked you. I wish I could say this was tough for me. But this is the easiest. ah This is the easiest decision I've ever made. And then she shoots him. Right. but Just, you know, does a little trickster moment where he replaces a part of Cody's brain matter with a bullet and doesn't even need to use his power. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: No, I mean, i I think that makes sense. I'll obviously probably want to reread the whole Cody arc, make sure we're not missing anything. But, um, yeah, obviously if he has such a minor role later on, then it's, that's, that's just on the chopping block. Unfortunately, like cool power. I like all that kind of stuff. But when you're talking about already an overload of characters, yeah got you gotta, you gotta start cutting out those small scenes that that don't add anything. I think he serves a great purpose. in this arc. Yeah. And nowhere else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. But aside, I don't know of too many other changes to the story. Uh, I'm looking through, uh,
Speaker: Uh, I have one note all the way at the end. Great intro to a cord who we will be dealing with later. Yes. And, uh, maybe adding damsel in there. Um, here's why I say that. Uh, I know, you know, big spoiler for some people, but damsel is a character that shows up in ward. Um, so, and, and a relatively important one. So given that, I think there should be a little bit of extra attention paid to damsel. Even if it's just, we've mentioned her once that she got picked up. I want to say by ah the slaughterhouse nine during one of the interlude chapters with a dragon and defiant. Um, she gets picked up by the slaughterhouse nine to pad their roster. We could have an introduced introduction, you know, just another name dropped here.
Speaker: Um, I think, you know, the fight against her probably during the slaughterhouse 9 ,000 arc, uh, like, yeah, just having her be a little bit more, um, and mentioned every now and then so that when we get to, it was like, Oh yeah, she's been mentioned before we've talked about her. We've shown her like, yeah so here, let let's do this because. I don't think we disagree enough, you and I, on this podcast. And ah oh it's probably it's probably good to play some devil's advocate here and there. um I disagree with that for a couple of reasons.
Speaker: one Ward is a different story. Yes, it's a sequel, but it nothing in Ward has an impact on the worm. It's only the other way around. Yes. So the only time we'd want to entertain anything that has to do with Ward is if the plan from the beginning is to adapt Ward. Yes. We're not so it's hard for me to justify decisions yet. It's fair. um fair and i'm not asking just more I'm not asking for more, uh, like more than is already kind of within the bounds of the story. So in this case, a court is talking about Brockton Bay, uh, their post the, uh, or sorry, uh, Boston. So they're post Boston games. Um, we're dealing with blasto.
Speaker: you know there could just be mentioned hey ah dasel is also here somehow like I mean, yeah if you want to keep it to a to mention allah an in the scene in Civil War before the Doctor Strange film is announced and what's his name? The one the one little nerdy rat is being ratted out. He's like, we've got eyes all over the place, you know, Tony Stark, Stephen Strange, we've got eyes on everybody. And this was like four years for the, you know, sure. If you want to keep it to like a mention like that so that there's like a clever name drop for fans and then down the line, yeah you know, yeah, that's, I don't have an issue with that. Yeah. Literally that. And when they fight in the slaughterhouse 9 ,000, maybe she gets more attention paid than
Speaker: spawner or whatever the other, like, you know, just a little bit more like, Oh, there, there she is. We know what she looks like at least, you know, and generally speaking. Um, cause I don't, I don't think she actually gets, if I remember it, she gets like almost no attention in this story, despite being part of the slaughterhouse 9 ,000 thing, you know, cause there were so many X, uh, X 9 ,000 people that cloned and brought out and combined. in ways so Yeah. Um, no, my larger issue is I don't want the, the thought of, and this isn't really so much applicable here, but the, I i don't want to constrain any of our changes we make for worm because of the implications it may have for ward. So I wouldn't want to impact our
Speaker: ah adaptation of worm negatively, it just in order to preserve something in a different story, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah i that that that makes sense. i'm I'm proposing that we just do something that's already existing and it is just you know literally taking a word and putting it in bowls instead of leaving it just there. Yeah, no, and I think that's i think that's fine. this is more more ah broad strokes here. Yeah. Yeah. um Especially just because we're worm is bloated as it is. And we already have trouble cutting characters because we love them all so much. So it's just, it's hard to sort of trim down. ah Something I was thinking about and and why I like ward, ah you know, it is a difference between ward and worm as long as we're on this topic.
Speaker: Um, and, and, you know, it will have to do with the arc. So I will bring this in, but, uh, ward has, uh, uh, in each of his stories, there is very. And while both stories, there are very few times that you get to rest and enjoy time with the characters without there being conflict or just outright, you know, physical violent conflict, like, and ward, I feels like. the first time, I mean, he did a better job in Twig, which was his third one of some, but Ward was the first one where it really did feel like here's us doing something for an arc, here's us resting for an arc. And like literally, you know, going out shopping and, end and, and, and living life, you know? And I enjoyed that so much because like,
Speaker: living the day to day works in a really long form cereal. Uh, you know, it may not be exciting. It's not what draws you in and goes, Oh, let me really turn to the next page to see what tops they bought. Like, but in terms of consistency of, you know, you're putting out this, you know, so many times a week, uh, I enjoy reading that and getting time to breathe and enjoy that downtime with the characters. Worm does not have that really at all. like we We got some of it and occasionally they'll throw in a chapter, but then like you know the barbecue gets interrupted. Or in this case, the characters don't even get to play their video game because they get everything interrupted all at once. and
Speaker: um you know i I appreciate seeing them interact, figure out this this friend dynamic where they're like, we've got to vote this person off the team, basically. like yeah And that is a little more conflict -based, but I enjoy looking at the the mundane in a supernatural world. um And you know might be just pur that that is just personal preference. Of course, what worm does, I think, better than
Speaker: So far, all of Wild Bo's other works is worm. It has a, uh, uh, uh, a story, a plot that is like, I think ah very well done and apparent and has like a, even if you can't see the ending, like there is a trajectory to it as opposed to his other works, which is like packed is the equivalent of shit rolling downhill. Um, and picking up speed. Um, and twig is a meandering path to something that you were like, Oh, that's what we're going for. Okay. Like, I mean, ah sure. I guess. Um, and even ward as much as I love ward has, you know, it's, it's odd, but you know, a worm is the best one that just,
Speaker: The problem it is that it it feels, you said bloated. I think it feels rushed for the amount of stuff that is packed in there. In terms of reading, that's great. um but you know And and you know the amount that he is able to fit in there is dense. It's lots of characters, lots of world building, lots of this, lots of that. um But it doesn't allow time to breathe in the world that he's created. um which can sometimes be good ah because then you don't have to explain stuff. And he is good at explaining, but like, it gives you enough time to like sit there, say it, and then like move on. Like we've explained this, we can move past this and not have characters interact with it enough to break it or to bring, you know, bring things into questions by interacting with it. And I think all of that to say, you know, as we're moving through arcs, like,
Speaker: That lack of downtime really irritates me. And I think having this constant upkeep of just moving to the next combat, you know, just moving to the next cell, we got to do this. We got to do that is really rough on viewers and people talk about a plots and B plots to break tension. But the problem is if everything that's happening is tense all at the same time, like you don't get a break. And I think the viewers need a break in a lot of these seasons. Um, and I, no idea where that's going to happen in this one. I think we've been, I think we've been subtly throwing that in, even though we haven't been focusing on it a lot, but we've talked about how in season two, for example, we need a really strong B plot of the wards doing detective work, you know, mostly by, uh, I do like the words and then, uh, the Amy's family.
Speaker: that family that Yeah, right. And and the that's the thing with um you you don't have to necessarily cut or break tension to just just slow the pace down. You can just switch to a different plot line that's still moving forward. you know You don't have to have a ah ah slice of life episode or scene you know every now and then. Those are nice, don't get me wrong. But like you don't have to do that. as I see what you're saying, but you can achieve that you know with ah switching between your plot points or or your plot lines. Just making sure that the show this just all comes down to pacing, making sure the show is all paced.
Speaker: No, no. and And I get that you can, you know, you can do that with plotlines, but it does feel like almost all the characters are on their toes all the time because of the events that are happening. And so, you know, giving you know more breathing room through arcs or through interludes and stuff, I think is a smart idea. I think this arc, as we adapt it to an episode, stays generally the same. However, the breathing room comes from the later time jump, kind of, you get a breathing room as they finally, you know, get it out and they, they, uh, you know, they're traveling and then they're at, you know, dealing with a cord and all that, like the openers to those takes the tension off because you're in a new setting. You're not having to deal with whatever that
Speaker: Conflict was at the time you're spending the time figuring out what this new one is basically so there's a little breathing room at the end But I think this episode for its purpose like needs to have that Lots of pressure because that's you know, literally what the simmerg is doing. Mm -hmm You know, so Yeah, worm yeah warm is unique because the the lack of breathing room for worms specifically feels ah really, what's sort of thinking of um intentional.
Speaker: because of the underlying, uh, conflict that the entities, the entities are, are focused on, right? And so it's kind of creating conflict and, and sewing all of that, uh, all of that uncertainty and, and all of that plays into worm as a story. So you almost would expect after the fact, looking back on it, less, you know, periods of calm, uh, the downtime, that kind of stuff doesn't, doesn't fit naturally into the story anyway. So it it's hard to, it's hard to, to put that in. Yeah, I don't know. I think if we had a little bit more, uh, managing team dynamics and the undersiders, uh, even with their, you know, their territories, um,
Speaker: managing, uh, the territory with, with Taylor, her relationship with her dad. Um, I think those are all easy things where you could be having conversations, sit down, just going to do something that, you know, what still has tense moments. So, you know, discussions and, uh, situations that they're in, but I think it could have had those if while you know if this conflict does really well as a seller, because you can always have the cliffhanger. um And it's hard to have those quiet moments when you're trying to have it every chapter be a cliffhanger. Bobo's really good at that. That's a really good four serials. And once he has established himself, you can get to stuff like Ward where not every chapter needs to be exciting and have a cliffhanger because
Speaker: All those people, like your audience is already pre -built. Like all those people are gonna listen to the, are gonna watch the next day episode, listen, read the next chapter. Right. oh You know, cause cause you're committed. Like you're, you know, and he'd been writing for six years at that point. Right. So. Yeah, no, I mean, I think i think you're ah saying you're saying a lot of those ah those are great ideas um in terms of in terms of keeping audiences engaged. I think that's really important. It just all comes down to how you're going to pace the show.
Speaker: And again, you know we're we're thinking long -term, we're thinking probably four to five seasons minimum. the Six seasons in a movie. Six seasons in a movie, right? like You can pull examples from from other shows that that do it poorly and or don't do it well or or do it great. um you know so it's kind of just you got eat It's probably the most challenging aspect of adapting a story or writing a story in the first places is pacing it effectively so that the audience is engaged the entire time. It's not too jarring. ah you know it's You've got a good balance of action, of of character building, of relationships and all this kind of stuff. so it's
Speaker: That is that is the struggle. so and And if this was a set of movies, you know, we were adapting it for movies. yeah I think you would be fine. Just full bore nonstop. I would actually suggest cutting out a lot of the quieter moments because you, I mean, these are essentially super action movies. We want the, like, they start a little bit quiet or maybe they start with the fight and then get quiet. And then, you know, you just continue to rising action, you know, just continuously fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. And then you're done. And movie like.
Speaker: new you You just assume there's been the the the rest period is the time you leave the theater and wait for the next movie to come out. That's when you get to rest. like Otherwise in an action movie, you don't get to pause. like e yeah um So if this were movies, i'd I'd have very different feelings about this. I would think that the rushing through everything is is appropriate and great for it. um But as a TV show, I think, It needs breaks. Yeah. And again, I do think a lot of those breaks will come from ours, from our other, our B and C plots. I think the spread out yeah interludes and stuff. Exactly. We've got our cold opens, you know, all of season two is going to have our assault and battery moments. Those are pretty, uh,
Speaker: not as, not as stressful as the other moments. Um, you know, so I, I, I think we're actually putting in more of those than we think we might be too. Um, we haven't even talked about like all of the, uh, cauldron, which is probably more of a, uh, uh, C D plot at this point, but any sort of those conversations, the, um, uh, outline, I am really struggling with names today. My goodness. Anyway, but you got fault lines crew and you know, all of that's a bit of a mystery element, which is a bit ah slower paced in general. So I think naturally as you, as you break down scenes and and space out episodes, my feeling is that a lot of those moments might fall into place kind of naturally.
Speaker: That would be that would be the the ideal, is that those those moments are already there. They just sort of fall into place as you as you set everything. ye But yeah, no it's ah it's a tricky balance. We interrupt our scheduled program to bring you a word from our sponsor, Zencaster, a one -stop shop for all your podcasting needs. When we first started this podcast, we knew we needed a service that would let us record remotely. After doing some research, Zencaster was the obvious choice. We started using Zencaster and never looked back.
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Speaker: I want you to have the same easy experiences I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story. That's zencaster .com slash pricing and use our code rockton bay BC. And now back to our scheduled programming. We'll see. and It's always helpful at the end of ah one of our pretend seasons when we do like a recap to kind of get a good perspective. yeah I mean, We can kind of start doing that. We are at like kind of the midway point of this season. Um, and I don't really have notes for this episode just because I think it works as is. Um, do we just want to talk trajectory? Like, yeah I think this is such a weird season.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, we already talked about the struggles of like, we both really don't like the idea of killing coil in the second episode of season three you know um or third episode, right? Like it just, it feels too important. He's been too, too big of a deal throughout the story. It feels like a season finale or penultimate episode of the season, right? Something like that yeah um towards the end, yeah just It just doesn't feel right. and I don't know you know. Hey, let us know if we're wrong. Come at us. Give us a call. Yeah. Love to hear it. um um But of course with that comes a bit of of needing rearranging to be done because if you're going to do that, then we can't really leave all of Noel until after that. So yeah, we get kind of an issue. ah So, okay. So I have an idea with that because we've talked about, we like to we'd like to,
Speaker: not end coil now, but we don't want to, ah you know, he is the big, he is sort of this big, bad, um obviously not as bad, big and as bad as Noel, but you know, potentially keeping him around ah in some fashion and then deal with him, i kill him later. And I think the way to still get the the win and, uh, like basically destroy, um, Noelle like, or get Noelle to break and, you know, breakout and everything is you coil basically assuming that he's about to die and acts, you know, the Noelle plan as his last maneuver and confesses
Speaker: in front of Taylor and tattletale that he was never going to be able to help Noel. He tried, but like they thwarted the plans and there's like, there's no way that she'll ever be fixed. And he says this, you know, full well knowing that he's got like, you know, a cell phone on and that they can hear everything. And tattletale is basically like confirming like, Yeah, like, ah you know, you dragged me into this, you made me lie to her. So Noelle is still hearing all this, still gets super pissed, and is going after the Undersiders. And the way that it's phrased, I think it would get as clever of Coyle as he's using his powers to obfuscate the truth when it comes to Tattletale's power so she can't detect it. um he The way he says it,
Speaker: essentially implies that the undersiders through tattletale, maybe we're supposed to do this. Uh, we're supposed to help out and have ruined everything. who Um, whether it's through capturing him and dismantling his leadership or just it was tattletale's faults and Taylor's fault for like lying to her somehow. She goes crazy. They lock him up in Dinah's old room because, uh, you know, fuck coil. Um, and then free, uh, free Dinah. I still think, um, you get that moment where she gets to see here's, here's, I like it. Potentially Taylor keeping Dinah around for two reasons. Number one.
Speaker: She realizes that Dinah is incredibly useful in fighting this S class threat. And two, she can have these moments where she is talking to Dinah and basically acting like coil, which I think is the whole reason we keep like coil around. And then on the flip side, maybe like asking, like occasionally talking to coil and him pointing out more or less that she's the same as him. Like you're literally doing the same things that I would have done. And Taylor being like, fuck you. I'm nothing like you. You're not my real dad. At which point we go kind of through the whole Noel arc. And we get at the end of beating Noel and all of this.
Speaker: Coyle says, so like, what are you going to do? Like you're a bad enough person that you've already kept Dinah around for this whole time. Like she could have gone home. I mean, granted the Noel fight, I think gets wrapped up in like, we'll say two days, you know, I forget exactly the timeframe, but pretty quickly, but you know, you've already held on to this girl when she could have gone home, you know, anytime this week and you've held on to her just like I did. Like, why not go ahead and keep her? And she's like, I'm nothing like you. Eventually she just kills him. Like just shoots him in the cage, cold blooded, which just goes to show that, you know, she is very monstrous. And then at the end of the season, she walks Dinah home and is like, I'm never doing this. Like,
Speaker: I can't like, I'm, you know, I'm a terrible person and she's like just flooded with guilt and regret for keeping Dinah there for killing coil kind of in cold blood. And I think that leads perfectly into the next season in which, you know, you can have Dinah literally as she ends the season hand or two notes and then Taylor having to come to terms with all of that in the next season in which she begins her turn because she's like, Oh my God, I am that terrible. And I would, I don't want to be. Yeah, those are, that's, I think I, I think I liked most of that. I would, I would probably wouldn't, I probably wouldn't change
Speaker: I mean, obviously you've got to, you've got to keep coil alive initially after that capture. I think you just lock them up. I think, I think they just choose not to kill him at that point. Just like like I said, he just goes in the Dinah closet. Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. um I really, really like the visual of how he's killed later. And and so I wouldn't, I don't, I wouldn't want to change that too much. Um, and I don't think you have to, I think you can keep a lot of that the same. It's just they deal with him after, uh, after they deal with the well, and he just maybe stages a breakout or something like that. He's smart. e He, he breaks free and they catch him again, you know, you whatever you can work it out if you want. It's still kind of to your same.
Speaker: your same ending. um yeah I like the idea. we've We've talked before about having both Taylor and Lisa kill him, and I really like that. I probably wouldn't want to change that. I like that a lot too. um I do like the idea of Taylor flirting with keeping ah Dinah around. She mentions it in in the serial. Dinah kind of mentions that, and Taylor's like, oh, she'd be pretty useful. Uh, doesn't she say it's like a 50 % chance that she seeps her? Yeah. I mean, which you want in whole honesty what if this is the other 50%, you know? ah Right. Yeah. I want to tone it down a little bit just because
Speaker: I really love, I don't, I don't want to tamper too much with Taylor's ah slow build towards self -destruction because it's, it's paced so well in the story. um In my opinion, I think, I think her rise and fall is really, really well paced. And I don't think we need to rush any of that. Because, I mean, killing Coyle is close to enough. I mean, it's the first life she's ever intentionally taken. um Like, that's a big moment for her as a character already. So I think that kind of, that moment is enough for her as a character to already have her be like, am I doing the right thing? Is, you know, have her start doubting everything.
Speaker: I mean, I think she could still absolutely be like, you know, defrotto in the ring or, or her salmon, you know, give me the ring. Sam and Sam wise is, Oh, I don't know. It's, it's kind of pretty cool ring. Um, that's a movie thing that didn't happen in the books, but anyway, yeah, nerd section over. Um, but you know, I think she can, she can kind of, Play with that for a minute, but I wouldn't want to go too far down that road only because I don't want to diminish later moments in the story where where she has similar similar moments but I Think everything else there. I think
Speaker: just kidner just ah locking coil up for the time being, him releasing Noel. I like your idea of him because the the issue we run into is of course that Noel's pissed at the undersiders because she thinks that they're killing of coil. is going to stop her from getting fixed because she's convinced the coil can fix her. So if we're going to keep coil alive for this point, then he's got to ah throw the undersiders under the bus at this point so that Noelle's still mad at them. So I think you're right there. um And there's a few ways you can do that. Of course, it's kind of just how you want to word that bit of deception. And then um obviously once Noelle's too far gone, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker: but ah Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky. And then of course we get back to this episode or arc 17 and this episode for arc 17 and where the place that ah gets tricky too. I don't know. I don't know where I'd want to place it. I think it could work in a few places. I don't know if you had any thoughts. Uh, I mean, my thought is, Hmm. I mean, I think you just, you know, they, you know, the catch up with coil, like you have it as is catch up with coil. He does this little confession thing where he's like, yeah, like I was all on board. Let's help Noel. And I asked tattletale and tattletale's like, there's no helping that bitch. And she didn't say anything.
Speaker: you know, thus just completely ignoring the fact of like, well, yeah but you also could have said like, ah, we can't help you. You know, but just because he's, you know, gets away with that shit like he does. Uh, you know, just says, and tattletale never told you, unbelievable. Like, man, uh, I believe she'd do that. Um, And then, you know, moving on from there, uh, where the, you know, they find her that the place she's broken out, like they're throwing, they're like, they're dragging him back and they throw him the cell. Like what the hell did you do? And they get back there and he's like, man, you know, what, what does a girl with no hope do? Like, they gotta have mercy on your souls. Mm -hmm.
Speaker: I mean, and if you want to do it that way, you can keep the episode almost where it's placed. ah Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's like you have that and then just same spot. Yeah. And then and just instead of the end of, you know, cutting back to, uh, coil's death, you just have it cut back to Noel's empty cage or something like that. Um, yeah and you've done the same thing. Yeah. I mean, i that's honestly probably the easiest place to put it. That would make the most sense. and like Yeah, I was going to say you could put it at the end too, but that gets a little tricky. Yeah, I'd probably do that. I think it, I think that works well. I think it works as a nice, uh, cause also this, this would split the, the season into, you know, the first couple of episodes deal with a coil and all of that and taking them down. They've got them. And then you get this episode sort of resets everything. And then after this is everything dealing with Noel.
Speaker: And then you get through that and then you, you know, wrap up the, wrap up the season with, with coil again. Yeah. Yeah. Cause, uh, I mean, they, you know, they deal with Noel and then, uh, and then then you just, you just transfer. I, like I said, I think, I think keeping Dinah around to assist with this. And I think just, you know, racking that up on Taylor using people, you know, Oh man, I'd really like to take you home, but we don't know if you're going to, like, if they'll, she'll attack you. Cause she knows you're sent and you were nearby, like all these justifications, which are, could absolutely be true. Um, you know, and she says like, well, if anybody could figure out the percentages of helping her, like, and even though there's basically a 0 % chance of helping her, you know, which she might've even asked Dinah, like, uh, she still won't take that as an answer. So there's a very good chance that like,
Speaker: You know, even Noel could be like, ah, I'm going to kill you in your little pretty precog too. Like, yeah. And then, you know, finally turns her in and then that's the, that's the happy season ending for me is Taylor limping home after all this stupid stuff, delivering Dinah to her house and then walking away. I think that's literally how you end the season is that. you know, the thank me, don't, you know, thank you, don't thank me. You know, this is all my fault. Yeah, I do like that. I do, I do like ending the season with her, um, bringing Diana back home. I think that works very well. Cause, uh, yeah, cause I would say this is another thing that I just don't, and I get that, uh, there, you know, there's sort of a vibe in here for like,
Speaker: And no good deed goes unpunished. And, uh, but in terms of if you're writing this for a book, for instance, I don't think you have any of the like weirder, happier, like success moments in the middle, like you would in a lot of these, there there's some other moments I'm trying to remember off the top of my head that kind of upset me that like, Oh yay, this victory is in the middle of an arc. And I get that that's just flow of time chronologically. That makes sense. Um, but flow of narrative, you know, as something that is fictional and created and the flow of events is controlled. Um, you put that at the end. Um, and it feels a lot better because you get to have that and then you close the book and take a deep satisfied breath that
Speaker: We like it was with everything else about that chapter sucked, but we got the little girl home, which was the goal and the next, you know, arc can suck all the way to. Uh, but if you were reading this book to book, we'll say instead of, you know, half week to half week, um, her dropping off, uh, uh, her mid book would just be weird.
Speaker: Right. I mean, you yeah, exactly. Assuming that the end of the book ends, you know, I see what you're saying. I agree with what you're saying. um Yeah, you want it to be, want you you want those beats to to make sense. when they hit, especially for something like this, which even though we've toned down the significance that Dinah has on Taylor's story is still an aspect of her story. So you still want, you want to make sure that that, that all lands smoothly, you know? Um, yeah, I also, uh, with, uh, one thing, it's, it's shoot.
Speaker: It's not in here, but it's something we'll talk about next time that I will make an addendum to, which is we talked about having the travelers be the ones that abducted Dinah in the first place. Right. We did talk. We talked about that a while ago. And since I've actually, I may have read, I may have read ahead to arc 18, um, which I have a lot more notes on, uh, just a pad time on this one. Um, they, ah ah unended Undetermined whether or not they were recruited right after the bank heist in arc in arc three. Like immediately following Dinah's capture, they were they werere grabbed or if they were brought in
Speaker: without knowing that, uh, Dinah hadn't been captured yet, but Quill was like, basically like, I'll capture her. I'll say that I've already got the precog. Um, and, and we'll get them on board and then I'll do that. And it'll be like, you know, you know, he was just bluffing about the time. Like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally have her already. Yeah. I don't have to go get her. Um, I think we just say in this case, We still have that scene of like, oh, a trickster swaps her out. And that's how they get her is, they were like, yeah, that little girl right there knows how to fix Noelle. And that little girl, Taylor, later on, that little girl doesn't want you to have Dinah. That's a pretty simple buy right there. And that could be even, another reason to keep Dinah around is, yeah, Noelle knows that Dinah
Speaker: If you asked her the right questions, could probably figure out how to fix her. But Taylor doesn't want her to use Dinah. I'm sorry, Taylor doesn't want them to use Dinah. She wants to get Dinah home, but at the same time, Taylor is using Dinah to fight Noel who wants to use her. So it's this weird, like everybody wants Dinah. And you know, Taylor's the only one that's kind of lying about why. Yeah. I think one thing I should say is is less selfish than everybody else about it. Right. Right. We kind of glossed over this, but it also, I'll be honest, this is part of the problem of being, of having fans like hardcore fans like you and I working on trying to adapt the story is cause we really don't think well in terms of like how to replace moments and characters and, and condense and all these kinds of things. Cause
Speaker: We love all the characters. We like all the moments. We want everything that to copy over. But it totally makes sense as you were kind of talking there. That final scene in the arc where Trickster talks with the court and has that whole thing. It makes way more sense to replace that scene with Trickster talking to Coyle and being recruited by Coyle at that point. And it wait makes way more sense at that point for Coyle to you end that with Coyle being like, I've got an assignment for you to test everything, you know to test you guys out.
Speaker: It's a kidnapping and it's where you just kind of cut it there. Like that makes it, it eliminates the need for a new face. You'd never met before, even though accord does play a role later on. There's plenty of other places you can introduce him too. It better establishes the link between the travelers and coil, which I think is way more important here than just accord being like, I have a contact that, uh, you might want to reach out to, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Also like a cord feels like just.
Speaker: No wonder cord and a coil, ah like a cord and coil are like, are like, are buds, are buds. Like, of course they are. Right. Two perfectionists. yeah Yeah. But, um, yeah, I think, I think that makes way more sense. I think, uh, implying heavily, even if, especially if you don't show it earlier, that the travelers specifically trickster are the ones who kidnapped Dinah, uh, you know, all that kind of stuff can be made. ah a lot more clear in this episode, in this episode and this interlude. I like it. Those are just ah some ramblings that we have there.
Speaker: No, that's good. there this is This is day one in the writing room folks. This is, this is the giant whiteboard waiting to lie down the middle on one side. It says good ideas. And then the other side says, there's no such thing as bad ideas. And there's just ideas listed on both. You know, it's just one of those yeah throw it up, see what sticks go from there. I always love, I don't even remember what it's from, which is just a, All right, guys, come on there. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's a I think it's Bernie Burns doing like, all right, guys, there's no bad ideas. What about this? I just said no bad ideas. Why would you go ahead and say a bad idea? me Get out.
Speaker: Anybody else have bad ideas? Yeah, I like it. Exactly. No, I think that's one thing. ah I've been, I've enjoyed reading all the comments and and people ah giving us their thoughts and ideas. Obviously we got a lot of people that strongly disagree. We love that. We expect it, but, uh, you know, just understand of course that we haven't, we haven't pretty written any of this. This is all off the cuff. We're having a casual conversation. to Disagree and give me a better alternative. And don't you dare say, ah, just keep it the way it is.
Speaker: because then like that defeats the exercise. Now, doesn't it? I like, I think you, I don't know if you said this on the podcast, Alan, or just we were chatting separately where you were like, you know, the truth is worm is going to, any adaptation of worm is going to suffer a bit and it's just not going to be as good as serialization. And it's like, welcome to any adaptation. How many adaptations have you, have you washed where you're like, Oh, the movie was way better than the book like. um yeah Hold on I can think of a few. oh sure I'm sure there's a couple. Actually I think Stephen Kingham said he's liked a couple of of the film adaptations better than his books which is funny. Yeah. um yeah
Speaker: But you know what I like, but it's not, it's not often. The book is the better story, which I think worm fans would probably agree. So, uh, this is fun. We're having a fun time. yeah It makes me wonder genuinely if drastically straying from the worm series would be better than say staying so close. Uh, but changing, um, you know, events and timelines. Oh, I mean, I've, I've, I've thought for a long time that I think I, I love worm story, but I think it would be, I think your best bet at adapting anything in worm would be a full series on one of the background groups, right? A full series following fault lines crew, a full series following some unknown capes in a city we have barely touched on.
Speaker: um, the ambassadors or saints crew, you know, these small character groups that just cause like worm as a setting is so cool and it's fascinating. That's more interesting to me. and I think like you would have a much easier time adapting a new story in the world than trying to adapt the existing world, the existing story. I already have an idea. Because I think for most of this, you run with the same timeline, no matter what the story is.
Speaker: I mean, which was kind of the general idea. It's like, wow, Beau, if I remember right, wrote this backwards. Like he had the ending, he plotted out, you know, everything, and then just was like, pick a character and that's who we're going to follow through it. Um, you know, but the timeline stays the same no matter which character you're following. Hence, like all the interludes and stuff. right Um, the beauty of that is like, what if we did just pick the fault line team and then just operated like arc by arc, but like we could literally plot out, all right, here's the chronology. What are they doing? during arc one, what are they doing during arc two? And you know you could go chapter by chapter, you know you know what are they doing? Even if it's in Las Vegas, what are they doing? And write a whole thing like that. And if you wanted to to make it the end fault line centric, I have a perfect idea. It's just you do the whole capri thing, except with, and and granted this would blow ward out of possibility basically, but
Speaker: You have the whole capri thing, except you have labyrinth be the character at the very end that does a power thing. Um, and instead of us driving the whole, like the, the, the, the scion so madness thing, we essentially have labyrinth unfold. and introduce Eden, I think was yeah was his um or basically unfold Eden out using her power and reunite them. And instead of gaining, like instead of it being like this weird thing where everybody has the stuff, ah they just take everybody's powers and leave, you know, the original intention. right just And that's, that's the end. That's the end of the series. It's just, nobody has powers anymore.
Speaker: I do. and it's it's One thing that makes Worm so great is that the only reason we're following Taylor is because of the end, because she's Keppri in the end. But like, yeah, you could replace her with any other character, and they would immediately feel like the main character. This isn't like, you know, we've talked about this before, but it's it's like, you're watching Batman or you're a Superman or something like that. And it's like, okay, well, obviously the character named Superman who's stronger than everyone in the world is going to be the main character of the story. But like worm doesn't have that intrinsically. You're, you're just following the protagonist because they're the protagonists. they They're the ones that have at at the end of the story, you're going to do the thing. So like, that's why you're following them.
Speaker: it's It's such a natural feeling that that ah can be replaced with anybody. So yeah, it's a great world. Great world. But we're ah diverting a bit. Getting back to 17, I think we've said all that that I think I've said, all but I'll be honest. We've, because they're so, ah you know, as I, as I ranted earlier about like, yeah, just don't say, just keep it the exact same. And then immediately go like, ah, I really got nothing for this. Um, yeah, i like this is a short episode. You know, we hit our, our Mark, uh, pretty, pretty good. And I like, I think and ah obviously next episodes I've already got more notes for those. Uh, but this one's such a straightforward narrative. I feel like it's.
Speaker: yeah think Doesn't really need to be adapted that much. Yeah, I think focusing more on the season and and structuring that is makes more sense anyway right now because as we get into the Noelle fight and all of that, there's going to be some more work that needs to be done. So ah yeah, i think I think we're done here. I think i think Arc 17 is pretty cut and dry. Great characters, great arc. It'll be a lot of fun. This will be a fun episode to see. I'm very visual. And, you know, first episode, first live action episode, you'd see with the Simerg and all that. So be a fun one. Well, with that being said, Alan, thanks for joining me, as always, Michael. Thank you, Jacob. Thanks for sticking around.
Speaker: And thanks to everybody for listening. we We really do appreciate all of the feedback, all of the comments, all of the all of the critiques, everything like that. We really do. It's it's a whole lot of fun recording and and interacting with warm fans. We're all so passionate about the story. We all love it. And we hope you'll stick with us. Also, of course, don't forget to reach out at 980 -999 -0438. Leave us a voicemail and you might get featured on our next episode.
Speaker: Arc 18 is next, that's a fun one. Big long arc, lots of interludes, I think another four interlude arc as well, so lots of other world building to talk about. That's gonna be probably a longer episode. But yeah, stick around for that one, it's gonna be a blast. And until next time, as always, take that, it works.
Speaker: Thank you so much for listening. Read along with us at parahumans .wordpress dot .com. We'd love to hear your thoughts. What did you love? What did you hate? Anything you think we missed, etc. as long as it's kind. If you'd like to get in touch, you can find us on Twitter, threads, Instagram, TikTok, and Reddit at Brockton Bay, B .C. or click the link in the description.
