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Episode 88: How to Follow Up & Get a Response
217 Plays5 years ago
Today Vanessa Kynes and I are chatting about how to effectively follow up with people. Or in other words, how to follow up in a way that gets people to take action. We chat about some of the broader reasons that we all should be following up with leads and then we jump into some super practical strategies and discuss different scenarios, like what does a normal follow-up look like, how do we prevent people from ghosting even after they've committed to moving forward, and how often should we follow up.
This has been one of my favorite conversations to date. It's a little on the longer side, but I think we cover a lot of great stuff. If you're looking for a more condensed version of this content, be sure to check out the corresponding blog post that was released along with this episode. It even includes some templates that you can use as you follow up with people.
For the show notes, go to https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-episode-88
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Transcript
Providing Value and Education
00:00:05
Speaker
I like to provide value. So if someone's inquiring about my services or what I do, I'll go through their content and kind of see like, hey, these are some of the things I would maybe recommend. So I like to educate and kind of give value, even if it's going to be a no. I like to really develop that relationship in that first email.
Converting Leads into Clients
00:00:27
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative, service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
00:00:39
Speaker
Today, Vanessa Kynes and I are chatting about how to effectively follow up with people, or in other words, how to follow up in a way that gets people to take action. We chat about some of the broader reasons that we all should be following up with leads, and then we jump into some super practical strategies and discuss different scenarios, like what does a normal follow up look like? How do we prevent people from ghosting even after they've committed to moving forward? And how often should we follow up and more?
00:01:06
Speaker
This has been one of my favorite conversations to date. It's a little on the longer side, but I think we cover a lot of great stuff. If you're looking for a more condensed version of this content, be sure to check out the corresponding blog post that was released along with this episode. It even includes some templates that you can use as you follow up with people.
Requesting Listener Feedback
00:01:27
Speaker
Be sure to check out the show notes at DavyandChrista.com for the resources we mentioned during the episode. And I want to hear from you. Let me know what kind of content you'd like to see on the Brands That Book podcast as we move forward. To leave your feedback, head on over to the DavyandChrista Facebook page and send us a message or send us a message on Instagram at DavyandChrista.
Follow-up During the Pandemic
00:01:45
Speaker
Also, Vanessa and I have a conversation towards the end of the episode about following up with people in the context of the current pandemic and quarantine the season that we find ourselves in. So feel free to check that out as well. Anyways, now on to the episode.
00:02:10
Speaker
All right, Vanessa, it is Friday. I feel like we've hit a rhythm recording on Fridays. This is my last big task of the day, this podcast before we roll into the weekend. Welcome.
00:02:24
Speaker
I love it. That actually is good too because it gives us time if we go a little bit over and you're not feeling stressed by your next appointment. Which we always do go a little bit over. Yeah. I think we're scheduled to do this like 20 minutes ago, but we've been having these chats beforehand. So especially with everything going on and we actually just had a conversation about the pandemic. I don't even like really referring to it out loud. I may have said this on another episode, you know, it's kind of like
00:02:49
Speaker
you know, saying Voldemort's name or something like that. You just don't want to mention it. But the reality of the situation is that we're in it. And so, you know, we were just having a conversation about how does this impact the content that we share because the topic that we're talking about today is an important one just in business in general. I think it's, you know, evergreen content to a certain extent. But the point being is that this content should hopefully be relevant a year from now.
00:03:14
Speaker
So how much do we contextualize it in terms of the current pandemic reality? So that was kind of a question that we were tossing around even before we jumped on the podcast episode. And I think we settled on really like, I mean, it's an important thing to address, right? Like, how do you follow up with leads, especially during this season? Does that differ a little bit if we weren't going through this?
00:03:38
Speaker
So, you know, hopefully, even if you're listening to this, hopefully you're listening to this a year after we recorded it and you're like, you can barely remember the season. Although I don't think anybody's going to barely remember the season. I have a feeling it's going to be like one of those things you just remember for the rest of your life, right? But hopefully we are well out of this season. But for those of you listening closer to our recording date, hopefully you find this
Using Downtime for Preparation
00:04:02
Speaker
content just as helpful now as you do in the future.
00:04:06
Speaker
You know, one good opportunity as we're talking about how to use our time as we're home more is this episode could be really helpful for you to develop templates on your follow-ups and different systems and processes that you'll be able to use when times are busier, which we know will come. Even thinking about service providers who might be taking on extra double header weekends or extra projects in the fall and next spring.
00:04:31
Speaker
so they can utilize some of these templates now and save time. So it could be a good time to make adjustments there. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really excited about this content. There's a corresponding blog post and I include some templates in that blog post, just some samples that you could copy and paste and just maybe add a little bit of your personality and voice to it and then they're ready to go and use.
Preventing Ghosting by Clients
00:04:50
Speaker
So be sure to check out that in the show notes.
00:04:53
Speaker
But really talking about the topic of following up with people and how to do that well so that hopefully it leads to a booking, but at the very least it leads to a response. Nobody likes getting ghosted, right? Nobody likes sending that email, sending information over and never hearing back. So we're going to talk about some tips and strategies to prevent that. So, you know, basically put your best foot forward and then also encourage people to continue communicating with you until you get them to the finish line. So where should we start?
00:05:23
Speaker
Why is following up important? I guess that's the biggest question, like what does it do and what does it communicate?
Reasons for Follow-up
00:05:30
Speaker
Absolutely. I think there are three primary reasons that following up with people is important. One, and we should just get this out of the way, people are busy, right? And I think sometimes we think we don't want to annoy people, but there are just so many, I mean, think in your own life, this is certainly true of me, I will inquire about something, I'll reach out about something, and then I just get busy and I forget to follow up on my own.
00:05:53
Speaker
And so a lot of times when I've inquired about something, when I've taken that first step, and even if that person has initially sent me information back, them following up a couple days later because they haven't heard anything is appreciated, right? It brings it back top of mind for me. So I think that we just need to get over that fear of quote unquote annoying, you know, somebody or pestering somebody. I mean, we have to remember that people reached out for a reason and just that people get busy.
00:06:20
Speaker
But really, I think three reasons come to mind. The first one is that it allows us to learn more about our customers. The second one is that it encourages people to make a decision. And then thirdly, it enables us to make informed adjustments in our business. So should we start at the top there? Yeah, let's start at the top. So you mentioned the first thing is you learn more when you follow up. So in your experience, what are some things you've learned from
00:06:48
Speaker
and replying to emails, maybe even people who've ghosted you in the past. Yeah, absolutely. Something that's going to make this a lot easier is having some sort of system for tracking inquiries, especially when we start talking about making informed adjustments. You want to be able to track the inquiries come in and then just have some sort of outlined workflow and some notes that you can take so that you remember where people are along the way and what came of that conversation.
00:07:15
Speaker
So, we have a simple inquiry tracker spreadsheet that you can download. It should be embedded in this post for anybody who wants to take a look. If you use a CRM like Dipsado, for instance, you can do this in more of an automated way and create workflows around all of this. I don't use Dipsado for this particular purpose, so I'm not sure if you can run reports and see the outcome of different inquiries. That would be pretty awesome if you could. That would be cool.
00:07:44
Speaker
At the very least, you can use a spreadsheet. That's what we use. It just makes it easy for us to know who we followed up with, when we need to follow up, if there's any interesting notes. The notes that we would take would be like, this person asked this specific question. It would be,
00:08:05
Speaker
you know, we were out of this person's price range, you know, stuff like that. So we kind of understand how the conversation is unfolding. And we can look back at all of our inquiries and we'd say we can look for patterns. So if you get 10 inquiries, and seven of them end up asking the same question, you know, after you follow up, then chances are that's a good question to answer with the initial materials that you send out.
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point. Or even templatizing that response because you know you're going to be asked it. Yeah, can you think of it actually? That's a good point. Can you think of a question that you've adjusted your informational client like client magazine or client inquiry page that you got asked a lot that you ended up adjusting?
00:08:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is why I love FAQs, especially in the initial guide that you respond with. So just to give some people insight into our workflow, somebody inquires, we will typically follow up with an email that asks somebody to get on a call, but then also gives them a guide that lays out our process, collections, FAQs. There's some testimonials and past work and sort of a portfolio embedded in there as well.
00:09:18
Speaker
So they have information at that point. They can, you know, from that point, if we are way out of their price range, you know, they can make the decision. They don't want to keep going and jump on a call. But that's the kind of information that we give. Now, one of the best examples that come to mind is actually when we were wedding photographers. So we shot film. And most people didn't care, you know, we actually thought it would be kind of a bigger deal than it was. But occasionally people would ask and we got the question enough like, Hey, I noticed you shoot film like
00:09:48
Speaker
kind of like why, you know, like, and are we going to run the risk of like the film not, you know, being processed correctly or, you know, whatever. And so we actually built some of that in the FAQs of our guide. And, you know, it really became a non issue after that, because we can explain like, Hey, film handles light really, really well. And
00:10:08
Speaker
You know, the way that we would edit our digital photos would be trying to chase after this aesthetic of film. And we try not to answer it in sort of a matter of fact way. Of course, we're trying to play to the benefits of film and answer it in a way that makes it sound like, you know, a plus or a bonus. Does that make sense? I have a
Incorporating FAQs in Client Guides
00:10:27
Speaker
question for you. You talk about a pricing guide. It sounds like that's a PDF, but can you think of some examples where it might be good to have like a place, like an actual website page you send them to for the follow-up?
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah. So our pricing guide is a website page. It is now at least back when we were shooting back when we were wedding photographers, we used a PDF because we, you know, we weren't, nobody was doing the whole, you know, add on page thing yet. It wasn't until towards the end of our photography career that we started using a page that we sent people to. So this page that we send people to with our design, you know, collections on it includes, you know, process, FAQ, sort of an investment guide, examples of past work, testimonials, that sort of thing.
00:11:08
Speaker
Okay. Very cool. I want to bring up an example. Actually, a mutual friend and I of ours is just Jordana and you were recently doing a call with her and I happened to look at her new website and it's beautiful. And one of the things I love about it, I mean, and she's a great copywriter, so she knows what to do.
00:11:23
Speaker
is that she has incorporated a lot of those FAQs on the actual services page, which she probably derived from getting all these questions to following up an email. So I love how she incorporated it there as well. So when someone's looking at reaching out, they can see maybe a question answered for them on the page.
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah and I mean I think FAQs and this is – have we done a podcast on FAQs yet? You've done a blog post on it for sure. Yeah and that's the reason I ask is because I have been doing a content audit which has taken me many, many moons to complete just because we have so much content on our website. But one of the posts I came across was that FAQ post and I was thinking to myself, I don't know if we've done a podcast episode on this but we should.
00:12:06
Speaker
Because I think FAQs are just a – I mean, it's one of the most effective, I think, tools in your toolkit to overcome objections. I mean, using FAQs, I think, is just one of the best ways to overcome objections that people might not ever vocalize to you.
00:12:25
Speaker
So, that's a topic in and of itself, but paying attention to questions is just going to allow you to understand more about the decision-making process that people are going through. And so, that's why I think the follow-up is so important, especially those initial follow-ups because maybe somebody has made the decision that they're not going to work with you for some reason. If they just ghost you, you never know why. And I think people are scared to like,
00:12:50
Speaker
Really ask. And I would encourage you like, you know, if somebody says, hey, we decided to go in another direction, you know, this is going to be, of course, personal preference, but I would encourage you to say, hey, totally understand. Thanks for your consideration. You know, just so I know, and maybe you can refine my processes or whatever, would you mind sharing what made you decide to go in another direction?
00:13:11
Speaker
And, you know, like, we've done that before. And we've gotten, you know, feedback on that. And some of it's just, it's as simple as price, right? It's like, hey, the person I'm going with, they're, they're less expensive, and whatever. But it might be something else. Maybe it's like, we haven't got this example, we've never got this response, because this is something we do. But what if somebody was like, Oh, well, Davey, we decided to go in a different direction, because this designer also included some search engine optimization.
00:13:39
Speaker
Now, of course, we haven't received that because search engine optimization is something that we do, but if we saw that over and over again, then maybe we start kind of brainstorming ways that we can overcome that objection or even maybe add that to our services early on in the process.
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah, this sounds like a very Enneagram 8 thing to do because it is scary to reach out to people who didn't book you and ask them why. You talked about learning, like if someone replies and says your prices are too high, I think what would be really cool in going back to that inquiry sheet is kind of lining up like, okay, where did those inquiries come from? Because I tend to find that people who are coming from referrals are ready to make an investment quicker, sooner than maybe someone who just discovered you on a
00:14:22
Speaker
search engine or something like that and doesn't know like and trust you. So I think there's a lot of information there too and you know which inquiries and which search terms however they found you lead to the most bookings. So that's another interesting way that you could use that data.
00:14:40
Speaker
100% and that inquiry tracker I'm talking about, and anybody who's listening to the podcast knows that something that we talk about often is that question of how did you hear about us. But there's a place for that on that inquiry tracker. And like you said, I think it's just one of the most informative elements of tracking because one, you can double down in areas where your best inquiries come from.
00:15:02
Speaker
And then you can, if you're investing in an area, like maybe you're investing in a publication to advertise and that publication never results in any inquiries or never any qualified inquiries, then you know, I'm not going to spend money on that next year. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. For me, a lot of times podcasts, like appearing on people's podcasts have turned out to be some of my greatest bookings. And I think it's because you get the opportunity to get to know someone through a podcast and also hear their knowledge and their expertise. So
00:15:32
Speaker
For me, I say yes to a lot of podcasts because I know that it can really move along that marketing relationship. Yeah, absolutely. The next reason that it's important to follow up is that it encourages people to make a decision and it's as simple as that. That's, I think, important. One, because people are going to make a decision at the end of the day. By following up, you're hopefully getting in front of them before they've made that decision.
00:15:57
Speaker
Right? And I think that occasionally, you know, I'll follow up a couple times. I won't hear anything for three months. That person will reach back out and say, Hey, I'm ready to go. But if they weren't with us, then they presumably are going to move forward with somebody else, you know,
00:16:13
Speaker
So, I don't think that you should just completely – I mean, you don't want to be overbearing or overwhelming to anybody for sure, but at the same time, you want to know or you want to move them in the direction of a decision. And so, following up allows you to do that.
00:16:29
Speaker
Yeah, and there's a lot of different personalities out there. Being a type one person, I typically always follow up with people or respond, but you have to remember there's a lot of people who maybe that isn't their strength. By sending in another email, you really are doing them a courtesy. They literally might have forgotten. Davey admitted that on the show. I think he forgot that today we were going to do this particular topic even in Slack.
Using Data for Business Decisions
00:16:53
Speaker
I did.
00:16:55
Speaker
If you feel like you're being too overbearing and I'm this type of personality, a lot of people really appreciate it and need it to be able to make that commitment. As we get into specific strategies here, we'll talk about ways that you can follow up in a gentle way and also my defense about forgetting about this topic in particular. Like I said, I've been doing a content audit and so my mind has been reviewing all of the content on our website.
00:17:22
Speaker
Lots of different. I'm having trouble remembering what's a blog post, what's a podcast episode, what's a YouTube video. I love it. I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Oh, I know. The third reason, it enables informed adjustments. And we already talked about this a little bit, so no reason to go on and on about this particular point. But once you're tracking your inquiries, once you're understanding how they're behaving and what decisions they're making at the end of the day, then you can make informed adjustments about your business.
00:17:50
Speaker
And this, I think, is particularly important if you're thinking about raising your prices. Instead of saying, well, if you raise your prices and then you get two leads and none of them book, and then you get scared and you're like, okay, I got to lower them. I think we get so sensitive about that kind of stuff when we make that decision that we act too soon without the data. But if you've been recording your inquiries, you can look at what your typical conversion rate is.
00:18:17
Speaker
And then you can compare that to, okay, what has it been since I've raised my prices after you have an accurate sample size and actually make a decision as to should I lower my prices again? Are they actually okay right now?
00:18:33
Speaker
And this sounds like it involves a lot of math, but it really doesn't. It's crazy how by just looking at things down on paper, we're on the screen, that things become more clear. And you're doing less of the, well, I feel like I haven't had as many inquiries this time of year as I did last year. I have a question for you. You mentioned that you like to get people pretty quickly on the first follow-up onto a call.
00:19:01
Speaker
Can you kind of comment a little bit about like maybe you have experiences of kind of pushing out that call later in an email or pushing it earlier and how much it has increased your bookings?
00:19:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question because I don't think that there's any sort of 100% right way to do this in terms of how much information or how many steps that people have to go through before they get on a call. I think that just being able to hear somebody's voice and talk to them and hear what they have to say and being able to answer some of those questions in real time is just better than having to do it over email.
00:19:33
Speaker
I think it's more convenient on some level. On another level, I think if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on something, that actually hearing that person's voice and interacting with a person and getting a sense for who they are is important in just that trust-building level. Kind of like what you were saying earlier, how podcasts build no like and trust more quickly.
00:19:54
Speaker
So that's why I like doing calls early on. Obviously, some people don't like to get on a phone call. They have other stuff going on. They have kids at home or whatever it might be and that's okay too. So it's never – I always give people an out and say, hey, if you'd rather me answer your questions over email, that's fine too. I would say though that 95% of people will jump on a phone call.
00:20:17
Speaker
That's not saying that 95% of inquiries lead to that second step of phone call, but like of the people who respond, right? Most of them will schedule a call and then a handful here and there will respond with questions via email. Yeah. And I bet that your call to booking ratio is probably pretty high. It's probably in the 80 to 90%.
00:20:39
Speaker
Because I mean, if people are gonna make the commitment to get on a phone call with you, you have the opportunity to answer questions live, get to know them, warm up, be friendly and personal. So even if it's hard for you, I do think that call is super important that they can trust you with their brand.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not as scary as people think, you know, and you can automate a lot of this instead of like, we don't go back and forth about appointment times because, you know, I use acuity and people use the link and they schedule something when I'm, you know, when I'm available and they're available, it sends like automated follow-ups. So all of that stuff. Yeah. All of that stuff is automated because going back and forth about, you know, times and things like that would be a pain. People can even cancel a call and reschedule it just using the
Building Relationships via Calls
00:21:20
Speaker
link.
00:21:20
Speaker
So we don't usually have any problems on that front. I really appreciate the fact that you think I have a high booking rate. All right. I think that is all that stuff comes through practice though too. And there's a lot of things that I've learned, you know, in terms of qualifying people before they jump on a phone call because I definitely had a season where everybody was scheduling a call, even when they knew they couldn't afford to book.
00:21:45
Speaker
you know, because they want to get on the call with a professional who can talk through kind of their website, right? Or kind of like how you would even approach it. So there's definitely a learning process in there. And I will, you know, I think if you talk to Emily, my assistant, she'll tell you that I'm always, you know, thinking through things and tweaking things on that front, just because, again, I mean, you have limited time and yeah, you can't spend all day every day on the phone, right?
00:22:13
Speaker
It's funny. I think I pulled that stat from your partner, Jesse Marchecho at Till, because I think he said that if you can land people on a call, he is a really high booking rate. Yeah, but he's another guy who he's had a lot of practice jumping on the phone with people.
00:22:28
Speaker
You know it sounds I think you know selling has all sorts of weird connotations to it. I just find that if you treat it like a relationship like you would any other relationship when you're jumping on the phone and with somebody you don't know and how would you act just if you're building a relationship with that person and then typically that's a great place to start.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah. So next, I guess kind of shifting into some of these more practical steps for following up. All right. So talking through the first email, and I think the first email is key. And so this is the true first follow-up. Somebody has inquired and you are going to respond to them with whatever it is. The details are going to vary here, but I think that there's some things that should be true regardless of what the specifics of your workflow look like.
00:23:15
Speaker
All right, I have to point something out that Davey couldn't go an episode without mentioning that he does not love auto responders
00:23:23
Speaker
I don't. I don't. Autoresponders are the worst. So I just despise them. I despise long autoresponders. I know, you know, if you're sitting at home, you're like, oh, well, I have a long autoresponder. I mean, like, okay, like I get I'm probably I might even be in the minority on this. So, you know, I don't mean any offense. I just think like, one, if I get an autoresponder and it's more than a sentence, I guarantee you I have not read the whole thing. That's funny.
00:23:51
Speaker
I mean, I just don't, you know, and especially the whole like, if you fall into this category, if you fall into this category and you list like five of them, I'm like, oh, you know, I don't have time to go through all of this. Yeah. I love that. I just trust that that person is going to get back to me in a timely manner. What drives me a little bit even more crazy is like the autoresponders that go, I've got your email and I'll respond within like something like three business days.
00:24:17
Speaker
And I'm like, really, 72? I mean, that's like, I get it. People's businesses are set up differently, right? And how much time they're devoting to it. But I'm like, that's three days, okay. Okay, I'm willing to pay you maybe a significant amount of money for whatever it is that you do. And it's gonna be three days until I hear from you. And I just think it's a wasted opportunity because one of the things about following up that we're gonna talk about is being able to get back to people
00:24:45
Speaker
really as quickly as possible. If a auto responder allows you to do that in an effective way, like in a truly effective way, like maybe I could automate my very first email and then people could schedule a call right from there. That might be possible, right? That's not how I do it, but maybe that's possible. Maybe that helps me get people on the phone more quickly and serve them right when they need to be served. But in general, just trying to get back to people
00:25:14
Speaker
in a timely manner before they've reached out to three to five other planners or florists or whatever it is that you're offering.
00:25:23
Speaker
I think, first of all, I think other responders are more common with women. I don't have one, but I do feel like they're more common with women, which we could probably have a whole new competition. Anecdotally, I'd agree. I'd agree. They're more like women. But I feel like if I got a reply back that said, hey, set up a call, I would kind of feel, and maybe there are really good ways to do this, I would feel like you don't have time for me.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, too busy for me. I can see that to even work with me one on one, which is what people are doing investing a lot of money to have that one on one relationship and your eyes on it. You know, it's not like an order at Chick-fil-a. So that's how I feel about auto responders in general. Okay.
00:26:04
Speaker
And I feel like I've gotten kind of razzed up about this topic. So I apologize to people listening and like, just tell me how to follow up. But to me, I mean, that's how I feel auto responders are. It's like, hey, I'm a really, you know, look at me. I'm a really busy person. I'll get back to you sometime in the next year. And if you follow into what here are the directions specific to you, if you fall into one of these categories, you know, so, but again, if you have an auto responder, hopefully I didn't just like, yeah, exactly. You know, this is not anything personal, just a little pet peeve.
00:26:33
Speaker
Anyways, first email. First email. You respond to this person. One clear call to action. Lines like this just shouldn't be an email. Lines that go something like, hey, if you're willing to jump on a call, just let me know. We'll set something up. If the call to action, if what you want people to do is get on a call, you should just ask, do you have any time to get on a call in the next few days?
00:26:56
Speaker
All right, you can schedule a call using this link, you know, something along those lines, but make them make a decision. Don't just kind of float it up there like, hey, it would be, you know, it'd be nice to chat some more if you want to. No pressure, right? It's okay just to ask.
Building Trust with Initial Emails
00:27:13
Speaker
Okay, so I really like this particular part of the podcast because here's just my perspective on it. I like to always use people's names multiple times within the email, because that feels more connecting. Make sure you spell it correctly.
00:27:26
Speaker
Okay, guys, because sometimes people's names don't have traditional spellings. And then also, I like to provide value. So if someone's inquiring about my services or what I do, I'll go through and this is a little bit easier for Pinterest marketing, I'll go through their content and kind of go through their profile and kind of see like, hey, these are some of the things I would maybe recommend. So I'll say
00:27:46
Speaker
I'll educate and say, hey, that's a great question about your profile. I think it'd be great if you did video content with this or if you expanded upon this. So I like to educate and kind of give value, even if it's going to be a no. And I do that because I want the trust of that person for a future referral, or maybe that person is going to buy a digital product from me if they can't work on one-on-one. So I like to really develop that relationship in that first email.
00:28:13
Speaker
That's a great thing to do. And I think something that I encourage everybody to do is to include some element of social proof like that. And that can be establishing that people should trust you through giving them a helpful tip or some advice. Or it can be something like if you're in the wedding industry, you can say, hey, oh, that's so exciting. You're getting married at, you know, Greenwood's venue. I just worked a wedding there that was published in this publication you can take a look at here and then going on with the rest of your email. But right there you've established like, hey,
00:28:42
Speaker
I've done work that's very relevant to what you're interested in right now. And there's a number of different ways to go about that, even if it's not, oh, you haven't been published there, but here's a gallery that shows off my work there in particular. So I think that's a great way to go. I wouldn't go on and on about that because you want to get to the call to action, but I think including some sort of value or social proof like that is key in that first email.
00:29:08
Speaker
And it might actually be the difference between like going back to that example of the published editorial at that particular venue, like that might be the difference between someone on the fence or even feeling a bunch of inquiries to booking. And so look for ways, like Davie mentioned, I think that's a good example to show trust, but like do it in a genuine way. Also in a way where you acknowledge who they are and what their business is too, that you didn't just feel the complete template, use templates, but then like personalize them as well.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah, and they're small other things too in your email signature. I got an email from a photographer recently and their email signature included all the places they've been published, which is like, I mean, it was everywhere. It was everywhere, you know? And even me, that's obviously relevant to me. That's there for people who are booking her photography services.
00:29:59
Speaker
But even I noticed it, right? And so there's just that layer of social proof. I think like you were saying, the more you can make it relevant to that person, the better, you know, in your email. So having something like that in your email footer is great, your signature is great. I wouldn't rely totally on that, though. So the only other thing that I would mention is having some sort of qualifying information, the level of qualifying information that you have in this email is going to vary depending on how qualified you want somebody to be before they take up any more your time.
00:30:29
Speaker
If you were early on in your business and you don't have a ton of work right now, I would not really do a ton of qualifying really at all. I would be trying to get on the phone with as many people as I can. I'd be wanting to have conversations with as many people as I can just so I can learn more. If you've established your business a bit and you have maybe more work than you can keep up with,
00:30:52
Speaker
Then all of a sudden, you can ask some more qualifying questions to make sure that you're not spending your entire afternoon every day on sales calls or responding to inquiries. So I know for our wedding photography business back in the day, we'd ask just a couple questions about
00:31:08
Speaker
the couple and have them answer those. And if they weren't willing to answer those, we knew probably wasn't a good fit. For even branding design, we typically send our collection guide upfront so that people have seen our prices before they jump on the call. Like I said, something that we learned is people will see your prices, know you're out of their budget,
00:31:30
Speaker
still jump on a call with you and i don't know if this is specific to the brand or website design world i don't think it is because i've actually experienced this a little bit with on the facebook ads in that agency as well so one other thing that you know will typically ask when people schedule their call is what's your budget you know because if somebody says
00:31:49
Speaker
I have a budget of $200 for custom website design. We will email back and we'll just say, hey, listen, we'd love to answer any questions you have about website design and get you pointed in the right direction. Unfortunately, we don't have any custom services that fall within the $200 budget. You have to make a decision on your own what level of qualifying questions you want to include on the front end.
00:32:15
Speaker
It sounds like pricing, though, of all those examples, is pretty important because at the end of the day, if someone cannot make the investment, it would be hard to have a full hour call and know that that's true. But one other thing that you could do is, in that case of the $200 budget, I mean, you do have the opportunity in the email to point someone towards some of the DIY options that you might have on the branding side or, of course, if you had a Facebook ads course, that kind of thing.
00:32:42
Speaker
That's why I think it's important to follow up with people even if you know it's likely not going to go into a one-on-one working relationship, but that you can still point them in different ways.
00:32:53
Speaker
Absolutely.
Frequency of Follow-ups
00:32:54
Speaker
And even along those lines, there's just so many ways to handle that kind of follow-up. But we've had people reach out and say, oh, maybe they're just a couple hundred dollars off, which in that case, we'd usually jump on the phone and move forward with them and then change their budget to work with you. And that's why I don't love including full pricing on the front public facing on your website. I think it's too early in the process. Just recorded a podcast episode with Erin Younger that will be going live on her podcast where I get into that a little bit more.
00:33:21
Speaker
That might be a topic we need to revisit as well. But moving on to tips for an effective follow up, just in general. So you have your first follow up, but what do you do from there? When should you follow up? How often should you follow up? And for most of us who don't like following up, I would say you need to follow up a few times and then whatever you feel comfortable doing, follow up twice more beyond that.
00:33:48
Speaker
Wow. That's so bad. I don't think I've ever gone that far before.
00:33:52
Speaker
Sure. I would say that typically, I'd say if you're following, you need to follow up at least three times. That'd be my minimum. There are of course exceptions and there always are. You might get an inquiry and you follow up once and maybe it's based on the risk. I don't know, maybe it just is, there's just certain red flags where you're like, well, I'll send my information over, but if they don't respond, it's all right. There's always situations like that. But I think for a standard, just normal inquiry, following up at least three times.
00:34:23
Speaker
Now, one thing I feel like we haven't talked about, which you've kind of alluded to, is what do you think a good, standard amount of time to follow up is? Is it 24 hours, 48 hours? Clearly 72 is a little long for you, comfort-wise. So what's your recommendation there?
00:34:37
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that when you get the initial inquiry and you follow up with the details that the person is asking for, that follow-up should hopefully happen within one business day. That initial follow-up within one business day, that's what I would say. I know that there's people out there that are like,
00:34:55
Speaker
They just maybe have different boundaries or different – they set different expectations, but one business day. From there, after you send that initial follow-up, I would say following up the next day to say, hey, have you had a chance to review the information I sent over? It's fine. But within two days, I would say. So I wouldn't let 48 hours go by without having followed up at least once.
00:35:19
Speaker
Is this different for like a wedding, like a photography client because you know that they're going to be making a decision then versus like a branding client who may or may not brand in the next several months?
00:35:29
Speaker
No, having run both those businesses and then also having till agency, I would treat all of those the exact same way. Send initial response to inquiry, follow up either the next day or no later than the day after. Just asking people, hey, have you reviewed the information that I sent over? Do you have any questions about this? And then I would follow that. I wouldn't let anything more than two
00:35:55
Speaker
maybe three days go by before sending your next follow-up. And as far as follow-ups go, I've heard advice as high as seven. I don't think I've ever gone seven emails in, but I would say three to four times before, and we'll talk about this in a minute, before going negative and giving up. So I definitely think it's worth following up quite a few times.
00:36:20
Speaker
All right. This is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, especially as you feel like we're in people's face, which could be a good number of your audience for sure. And let's talk about the consequences though. You know, we don't want to be annoying, right? Yeah. I would say that in most situations of responses I've received,
00:36:40
Speaker
If people do mention how many times I followed up or I followed up, it's almost always positive. Hey, Davey, thanks for following up. I've been meaning to get to it and I just whatever, forgot, got busy, yada, yada, yada. I cannot think of a single example where somebody emailed me back and was like, dude, enough, enough with these emails, right? I mean, maybe somebody feels that way, but the email would say something like, hey, I've decided to go in a different direction.
00:37:05
Speaker
Alright and that's totally okay if they include a reason that's even better you know but I cannot think of a single situation where somebody's been like I want you to know how annoying you are. I think it makes you look professional. I think someone like me I would think that after three follow-ups
00:37:24
Speaker
you would just assume they're not interested, which is possible, or maybe they didn't like the price, or they just got something else and it kind of got to the bottom of their pile. So I would think about it that way. But maybe I should be following up more.
00:37:40
Speaker
Before we get into going negative in the magic email, I want to talk about just a few tips here for an effective follow-up.
Crafting Effective Follow-up Emails
00:37:46
Speaker
In general, I try to keep all of my emails short. Even that first response that I send, I want to be short and to the point. If there's more information I want to go into, that comes in the form of the PDF I attach or the page that I send them to get more information.
00:38:01
Speaker
I'm trying to keep it short. I want to ask one very clear question that requires a response. Do you have time to jump on a call tomorrow? That's not the softball, hey, if you have time to chat tomorrow, that would be great.
00:38:16
Speaker
Ask one clear question and when you ask a question like that, it typically requires a response. If you want to chat, that'd be great. That doesn't require a response. Asking one question, I think, improves your response rate greatly. Don't ask a bajillion questions. The more questions you ask, the more likely it is somebody won't respond just because, again, that's a lot of work for them.
00:38:44
Speaker
Timely response, we've already talked about that. Follow up often, I would say no less than three times. Over seven spreads, probably a bit overkill, but you know, if you're comfortable with that. Remind people why you're following up. This is more important in the initial response. Like, hey, thanks for reaching out and requesting more information about this, yada, yada, yada. I wouldn't say that this is like
00:39:07
Speaker
For most of us, the types of business that we're running don't require us to spell out why we're responding. People just know, they inquired about our services. But depending on the type of business you're running, that might be necessary. Also, if you're following up with pricing information or trying to get somebody on a call after they've downloaded a lead magnet on your website, then it's way more important to include why you're following up.
00:39:29
Speaker
Okay. Again, that won't apply to most of the businesses, I think, listening to this podcast. But I think if some bigger companies out there, we've all downloaded something and then all of a sudden we have a salesperson in our inbox and we don't know why. Or they're calling you because they asked for your phone number. When you're just curious about the interest rate on a loan, I hit enter and I'm not joking within seconds. I had a call and I felt obligated to answer it. I probably should have ignored it. But don't quit.
00:39:57
Speaker
But if you ignored it, they would have been the kind of people who followed up every day twice a day for the next three years of your life. So creating urgency, you know, I mean, I think that if you give people some sort of deadline, and we always think about deadline in terms of do this action or this will expire, you know, or something like that, that's not necessarily what I'm saying. But telling people like, Hey, do you have time to chat before the end of the week?
00:40:21
Speaker
you know not do you have time to chat sometime the next few months it's do you have time to chat before the end of the week you know and again it required like yes or no right um but i think it will get it typically gets people on the phone or to that next step earlier i agree
00:40:39
Speaker
And then I wouldn't say it's necessarily a tip for the follow-up, but using something like MailTrack. I love MailTrack.io, I think it's called. It's an extension for Gmail, and it just allows me to track my email. So basically, I know when somebody's opened it, and I know if they've clicked a link in it. And this is really helpful, all
Tracking Email Engagement
00:40:57
Speaker
right? And this is not like a way to spy on anybody, right? But if I send a response to an inquiry and the email's not even opened,
00:41:05
Speaker
then I might think to myself, it might have gone to spam. And so I've reached out to people via DM on Instagram that have inquired because they haven't opened my emails. And because I can see, and sure enough, if that happens more times than not, it went to spam.
00:41:22
Speaker
That's super interesting because it did sound creepy initially. But on the reverse side, that happens to me. I mean, I was looking at my I have started to check my spam recently because I've started to miss emails from different students and I always apologize profusely once I finally discovered it. But I realized things are slipping into spam more recently than
00:41:42
Speaker
I've ever noticed in the past. So that's really interesting. And I totally have heard that much more. But yeah, I mean, again, it's not like, it's not really actionable, like Intel outside of kind of the use case I just mentioned, you know, it's not, there's no like,
00:41:58
Speaker
I guess there's no real creepy thing to do with that information, right? It's simply just now you know, you know, whether they're taking action or not. I mean, but if you want to start talking about like what kind of some mail track features like mail track has a feature called a I forget what they call it's like hot item or something like that. And so basically like if a person opens an email repeatedly in a short amount of time, it will give you a notification like
00:42:21
Speaker
this person's opened your email like 10 times in the last hour, you know? So it does give you an idea, I think, of, you know, how interested somebody is in kind of the information that you sent over. So mailtrack.io, it's for Gmail. There's other stuff out there for other tools. I highly recommend it. And I can't tell you how many times it really has saved me from the spam mailbox. So that's been helpful.
00:42:44
Speaker
I guess there's two things to talk about. We are... This is a great episode though. I feel like this has a lot of great information in it. Yeah, and y'all have all the time in the world right now to listen to these long podcasts, so you shouldn't feel bad about it. I mean, as far as the time in the world thing, I feel like I have less time recently. Okay, I should be joking. I have three kids, but I am jealous of all the people who are super productive right now because I don't feel that way, so I was actually just being funny.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah, our nanny is obviously not coming over right now. And so, or, you know, like we don't have childcare and which is fine. Again, it's there's a lot of silver linings to that and all. I do feel like my workday has been cut in half to a certain extent. But two things I want to talk about going negative and the magic email. So I want to talk about that real quick. And then I want to talk about some tips specifically for sending the contract and invoice over and following up based on that.
Eliciting Responses with Negative Phrasing
00:43:38
Speaker
Because I do think that occasionally people get people to commit
00:43:42
Speaker
And then they send in the contract invoice and then that's where it falls apart for some reason. So I think both those things are important to talk about. Going negative, this is a tip I've learned. I can't remember from what book. If you have the blog post pulled up, I mention it in there, but it was a sales book. It is called The Sales Acceleration Formula by Mark Roberg.
00:44:01
Speaker
Yep, he's a guy from HubSpot, I think. He built the sales team over at HubSpot. And I thought this was super interesting when I heard it, and I'm pretty skeptical of it too. But the idea is your final email that you're going to send to follow up with somebody, you go negative. And what he means by that is you say, hey, so-and-so, is my example in there? Yeah, do you want me to read it? Yeah, it'd be great. Okay. Hi, Ann. I haven't heard back from you, so I'm assuming you're no longer interested in family photography sessions at this time. If something changes in the future, please let us know.
00:44:31
Speaker
And so that first sentence, so his example of going negative is really just that first sentence. So I added that if something changes in the future, because I do think it softens it a little bit. But just saying, hey, you know, I followed up with you a couple of times, basically, I haven't heard from you. So you're obviously not interested in this anymore, for whatever reason.
00:44:50
Speaker
that email magically results in responses. And I didn't believe it, but I started to use it and it does. Are they booking or are they just apologizing that they didn't respond? Both, both I would say. But even that is I think valuable. So I'm thinking about on the Facebook ad side and sending that email to somebody who expressed a lot of interest early on, things just kind of went cold.
00:45:15
Speaker
He responded and said, hey, we are dealing with and they're dealing with a certain, you know, internal thing. But, you know, he explained basically what they're dealing with. And so that's why they haven't followed up and then said, come and he gave me sort of a tentative date on, you know, when he'd be ready to pick this up again.
00:45:33
Speaker
And so that's valuable information for me. Yeah. If I never heard back from him, I probably would never reached out or reach out ever again. Now I know, you know, I can't remember what it was. It's like a month in the future. So it's all my calendar, like reach back out to this person, because they've expressed interest and they said, whatever they're going through right now, that would be resolved by then. Yeah. So it's also really professional to super professional way that you
00:46:00
Speaker
have handled the whole thing professionally, even if it doesn't land a booking. And I think that's really valuable because people want to remember they had a good experience with you.
00:46:08
Speaker
Yeah, but this whole concept of going negative in the magic email and the magic email is a email that was, you know, if you Google the magic email, it will appear, you know, but it uses the same principles, this principle of going negative. And for whatever reason, it just seems to work. All right. Now, obviously, it's not really magic and people might not respond and people haven't responded to it before. So it is what it is. But I do think it increases the likelihood of a response.
00:46:35
Speaker
Okay, well, we're on our final tip. So this is definitely before. So I want to hear what you have to say. All right, so contract invoice, everything is going great. You've had a conversation with somebody, maybe a couple emails back and forth, they're excited to work with you, send the contract and invoice, I'll take a look and I'll get to it tomorrow or whatever. And then they get it. And then you don't hear anything. I think all of us have had this happen at least once.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Maybe not all of us, but it's not out of the normal occurrence. So a few things about this, all right? To prevent this and then just in terms of the follow-up here.
Securing Commitments Quickly
00:47:14
Speaker
One, when somebody requests a contract invoice, you want to get that contract invoice as soon as possible. If I get off the phone with somebody and they say they want a contract invoice, we send it right away.
00:47:27
Speaker
All right? If you were doing in-person consultations, I would bring the contract and invoice to the consultation, or at least the contract, right? To the consultation and fill it out with the person right there and have them sign it. I know it's not digital. You can still, you know, even in like Debsado or whatever CRM you use, you can usually upload a PDF. All right? So not as clean, but you get them to make that decision and commit in that moment. All right?
00:47:53
Speaker
Anytime you have to wait, you know, I joke around with my assistant Emily that if I have to send a contract on let's say a Thursday and that goes into the weekend without having been signed, you know, I just think the weekend is this like, I don't know. The weekend is where contracts and invoices go to die. That's what the weekend is, right? And obviously I'm just kidding.
00:48:15
Speaker
because the vast majority of people who request the contract and invoice do book. But I do think that the more time you let pass, the more of the likelihood there is for that lead to get away. So especially if we send something on a Thursday, we always follow up on Friday about that before we head into the weekend. We always follow up on it on the earlier side Friday too, not like Friday at five o'clock.
00:48:45
Speaker
Just speed, I think, makes a big difference there. Talking with the decision makers early on in the process also makes a big difference. A lot of people, just because how their business is set up, they'll ask their spouse about it before making the decision to move forward. Even if the spouse isn't involved in the business formally,
00:49:09
Speaker
So if you can get everybody there, if you can kind of bring everybody to the table early in the process, it eliminates that chance that at the 11th hour, the spouse is going to or whoever it is is going to come in and say, nah, I don't think so. I mean, the same is true, again, wedding industry. If you are talking to maybe just the bride or just the groom or whoever, just one half of that couple,
00:49:32
Speaker
there's always the chance that the other half has some questions that all of a sudden throw everything up in the air. So if you can talk to all the decision makers early on, I think that's better. All right. The exception would be parents of the
00:49:45
Speaker
the couple. Even if they're paying for it, I think if you get both the couple on board that typically they can handle their parents. Trying to get decision makers there, including some sort of fast action bonus like, hey, if you take action in the next 24 hours, you'll also get this.
00:50:05
Speaker
that might not be on brand for people. So it's obviously a personal decision for your business. But if you can work something in like that, expiring contracts, I'm just rattling things off here. Those are all sorts of stuff that you can do. Expiring contracts, saying that a contract is going to expire within 72 hours. And I think that's a fair time period. That doesn't rush anybody into the decision making process.
00:50:29
Speaker
But it does say like, hey, after this, especially if you are an event-based business and you're holding a date. So telling people, I can only hold your date. Now that I've sent you a contract, I am only holding your date for the next 48 hours. After that, I can't commit to holding your date. That is more than fair enough, I think, but also puts a little bit of a burden on them to actually make a decision and either sign the contract and pay you or move on.
00:50:59
Speaker
One thing I want to add is I feel like there was one time and maybe remembering this long is that someone followed up like let's say months later and I felt like I had to honor the contract. So what I went back and did was on the proposal I gave a certain amount of time that this proposal was valid for so that if I chose to raise my prices in the future they couldn't come back and book me at my older prices and I felt good about having that phrase on the proposal so they knew.
00:51:26
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I mean, even for branding and website design projects, we give people a tentative start date, you know, because typically, if someone hires us, we can't get started the next day, you know, so if I tell somebody that they can start in two weeks, so somebody said, I want to move forward, when can I get started? And I say, well,
00:51:42
Speaker
I think about two weeks and then I have another discovery call afterwards, right? If they say, you know, if that person also wants to commit, I'm making decisions based on this other person who also told me that, right? So I think it's totally fair to have a contract or, you know, a deal that expires in a certain amount of time. You can communicate all this I think in a classy way, you know, that's not
00:52:03
Speaker
you know, a marketer like, make this decision in the next 10 minutes, you know, with a countdown timer. Like, of course, you know, yeah, like, of course, that doesn't work. That would just not be on brand, certainly for people who are doing high end stuff, right? So I think that there's a way to include all of these elements in a professional, classy way that doesn't make people feel rushed.
00:52:24
Speaker
but also makes them realize they need to make a decision. You're serving your business well by doing that too. All of that to keep in mind when it comes to the contract invoice. I'd follow up the next day to see if people have questions about it after sending it.
00:52:39
Speaker
And then if you set a deadline of 72 hours on that third day, following up again and saying, hey, just so you know, like we need a response because we can't hold your date after this, right? Or your date might be subject to move or whatever it might be.
00:52:56
Speaker
Hopefully that helps when it comes to that specific issue. I really do love this topic. I don't know what it is about this topic, but I think just even when it comes to website design, one thing I'm interested in is people's behavior and how to get people to take action, right? I mean, that's the grand question that we're all asking ourselves all the time is how do we get people to take action? We're all dealing with conversions, both big and small on a daily basis.
00:53:22
Speaker
I think that's maybe why this has been such an interesting topic and just something that I'm constantly tweaking within my own workflow as well. So definitely have a lot of anecdotal evidence to share. So you mentioned at the beginning of the episode that there are templates and where can we find those?
00:53:41
Speaker
Yeah, so those are in the blog post. So I've just included some sample responses that you could copy. And then you could pretty much, you know, plug in that person's name. Maybe if there's a certain element of your personality, you need to... Lots of exclamation points, lots of abilities.
00:53:57
Speaker
Yeah, exclamation points. But yeah, that's true. I have to be really careful. I'm like, I can edit a little bit. I'm excited to work with you, but I don't know if I'm that excited. So there's templates there. We didn't talk a ton about this in the context of the pandemic. I think maybe that's worth just mentioning here at the end, in part because if you've listened this far and we're no longer in this season, which God willing, we won't be for long,
00:54:24
Speaker
then you can just turn it off here. Be sure to check out the show notes though. If we are, you know, since we're as we record this, right, certainly in this season, things get a little bit trickier just because, you know, people who were like truly enthusiastically ready to commit to whatever it is that you were doing, you know, things really changed overnight, right?
00:54:43
Speaker
So we have to have, I think it's just very important to demonstrate empathy in this season for people. Also, just an opportunity to get more creative in how we can get people to take action. This is not meant to be manipulative, but simply to think through ways like why wouldn't somebody put a deposit down for a date right now? Well, maybe they're concerned that come July,
00:55:08
Speaker
their date's going to have to be moved because we're still within the season, right? So what can you do to demonstrate some flexibility and ensure that person that, well, we'll just find another date then. And again, this is a very business by business decision, right? But I think both those things are important. Of course, the most important of those two things leading with empathy.
00:55:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think from my perspective, like you mentioned, empathy being really personal. Maybe they reply, they're ready to work with you and they reply saying, hey, I can't make this commitment right now financially. And you record a loom video or desktop and just and maybe respond in a more personal way or hop on a call with them if they want to work with you. Another idea is maybe even if it works like payment plans like taking like smaller micro commitments as well. I've seen a lot of course providers really introduce payment plans on their large courses to get people
00:56:00
Speaker
you know, into the door without having to put a large lump sum. And so I think, again, like,
00:56:06
Speaker
how you make people feel really matters for your business. So that's priority for sure. Yeah. And the payment plans, that's a good call. I mean, that's something that we've done for our custom work right now just in this season is we've restructured our payment plans just so that they're just a little bit easier for people who want to tackle website design in the season, but also understand that there's sort of an indefinite nature to this season as well. So I think that's something that's really worth mentioning.
00:56:31
Speaker
But the last thing I want to say about following up in the season is I think it's still important to do it. And we've seen people over the course of the last month who have, after having followed up with them, still committed to hiring us for a project, even in the midst of everything going on. So I think we shouldn't make the assumption that just because we're in this season that nobody's interested in what we're doing. I mean, I think especially if you're in the wedding industry and events industry right now,
00:57:01
Speaker
Obviously, things were shaking up in a big way. One of the effects of that, I think, is people who had to reschedule weddings, let's say, not being able to use their original vendors because maybe that vendor is already booked on their new date or whatever it might be. They're looking to hire new vendors for that event. By just saying, oh, well, nobody's really interested right now. I'm not going to follow up, yada, yada, yada. I think that'd be a mistake.
00:57:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And keep the conversation going. Even if they say, you know, not wedding industry, obviously, but like for services, if they say, you know, something in three months from now or in the fall, maybe you put a little note on your calendar to reach out to that person then when things are calmer, even if you are just saying hello and seeing if they're still interested. So I think that there's some cool things you could do there without being manipulative and being caring and top of mind.
00:57:52
Speaker
I think that's a good way to end. Vanessa, thank you. It's a great Friday. I'm wrapping stuff up here. Big plans tonight at home. Yeah, big plans tonight at home. Yes, tonight will look like I'm assuming every other night for the last month.
00:58:09
Speaker
That's funny because Easter totally crept up on me and my husband's a little bit more like, he's not crazy, but he's a little bit more concerned about me going to the grocery store regularly. He's like, just get what you need. And I'm like, I don't have anything to serve on Sunday. Like we have nothing. I think we have candy we can hide around the house. And he's like, don't worry about it. The kids will understand. So I feel like even the holiday really crept up on me and I'm just not really prepared. But it'll be the same it was the last two weeks.
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of Easter, too, I'm just I'm sort of grieving the loss of how do you put this because we're because Easter is happening like Easter is happening. Easter is not canceled, of course, but I am grieving the loss of the in-person community around Easter. So I listened to a really great podcast on this a few days ago that I'll have to post in the show notes, maybe for anybody who's interested in a conversation around that. But Vanessa, thank you again so much for joining me. I hope you have a great weekend.
00:59:08
Speaker
Thanks, you too.
00:59:31
Speaker
you