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Cool Careers in Accounting Ep. 26 - Fraud Part 2: Inside the Whistleblower’s Dilemma with Kelly Richmond Pope
62 Plays2 hours ago
Dr. Kelly Richmond Pope joins host Mike Potenza to unpack whistleblowers—their stigma, motives, and impact. Pope outlines the “whistleblower triangle” and three archetypes: accidental, noble, and vigilante. Real-world cases span Dixon, Wells Fargo, Boeing, Hyundai, and more, revealing the risks, retaliation, and long legal roads many face, even with rewards under False Claims and Dodd Frank. Join us as Dr. Pope shares guidance for leaders on building safe reporting channels and for professionals weighing when—and how—to speak up.
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Transcript
Introduction and Welcome
00:00:09
Speaker
everyone. Mike Potenza back for Becker Accounting Podcast, and I'm with my guest, Dr. Kelly Richmond-Pope. And Kelly and I were together not long ago to discuss fraud. And in the first part of our fraud discussion, we really focused in on fraud.
00:00:25
Speaker
perpetrators and prey, the victims. But we did not discuss whistleblowers, the people that shed light on the fraudulent activity. So Kelly was so gracious to come back and wrap this up with us to discuss whistleblowers.
Are Whistleblowers Heroes?
00:00:39
Speaker
So Kelly, thanks again for coming back.
00:00:41
Speaker
Thank you for having me back. All right. Well, it's our pleasure. And I know our audience are happy that you're back to ah finish this conversation. So as I mentioned, we discussed perpetrators, we discussed prey, but we have this term, a person who is a whistleblower. Now, some people might call them heroes. Other people use more derogatory terms like a rat or or a snitch, and whistleblowers can really lead towards heated debate. So, Kelly, what's your take on a whistleblower? Are they heroes or are they villains?
00:01:18
Speaker
I think whistleblowers are heroes. And i I sometimes think that we might be calling them the wrong name because um the word whistleblower has had such a negative connotation in society forever. And I think that that's part of the problem.
00:01:36
Speaker
And um so, yeah, I think they're I think they're heroes. Now, you can have some troublemaker whistleblowers, too. said You can have them. But I think overall, they're heroes. And I think when you you think about the information that we've gained from whistleblowers, I think they're heroes. What do you think?
00:01:55
Speaker
I do. I do think they're heroes. And again, it it there's never one right answer or wrong answer. It's not just black or white. There could be areas of gray depending on the context.
Why Do We Distrust Whistleblowers?
00:02:05
Speaker
But I love the quote that you put in your book from Albert Einstein, where you quoted um Albert and he said, the world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything. right? And that's what the whistleblowers are trying to do. They're trying to bring justice in areas where they feel people are not being treated fairly. And the problem is, like you said, some people look at them as rats or snitches, and these whistleblowers are harassed. They might lose their jobs. They're vilified. So that's why i want to have this conversation with you to really add some light to who they are and how we think they should be treated.
00:02:48
Speaker
You know, it's and it's interesting. This whole idea of whistleblowers is really what um sparked my original talk, my TED talk. So it started out as a TEDx talk.
00:02:59
Speaker
And the first name, when I um first introduced it and was accepted into the TEDx event at DePaul University. It was entitled, Why Do We Hate Whistleblowers? And I want to just let that sit there because we really do. We really do dislike the person that speaks out against The voice, the bigger voice. And the question you have to ask yourself is why?
00:03:25
Speaker
Do we hate them because they're doing something that we can't do? or what is it that makes us so distrustful of somebody that is sharing information, valuable information often?
00:03:37
Speaker
that um we need to know. And so um that was the basis of my TEDx talk years ago.
Impact of TED Talk on Whistleblowers
00:03:44
Speaker
And because of the topic and just because of the um landscape that we've lived in over the past three to seven years, um during that time period, um because my talk was about whistleblowing, it got elevated to become a an official TED talk.
00:04:02
Speaker
So when it became official and official TED talk, um it It garnered around 1.8 million views. And at the time, um it had been translated into 22 languages.
00:04:14
Speaker
And what was really interesting that was happening is whistleblowers from all over the world were reaching out to me with their stories. And i'm ah I'm an accountant, I'm a CPA, I'm not a lawyer. So I didn't know like what to do with the people. But as they were sharing what happened um to them, there was one conclusion that they always made is, as hard as my life is now because I came forward, I would do the same thing again in the spirit of justice for those that don't know.
00:04:45
Speaker
And so um so like we talked about in our first conversation, just as I categorized um perpetrators, I categorized whistleblowers. And I say that all whistleblowers are not created equal.
00:05:00
Speaker
You can be an accidental whistleblower. You can be a noble whistleblower or a vigilante whistleblower. And I know we'll talk about each. But um I think these classifications are important in understanding our interaction with them.
Financial Incentives for Whistleblowers
00:05:14
Speaker
Sure. And what's interesting to me, and I don't know if a lot of people are aware of this, there are certain federal laws out there where the person who whistleblows, so to speak, can actually collect on the lawsuit, such as the Federal False Claims Act, where a person can bring an action on behalf of the government against someone committing fraud, and they can take part in that settlement.
00:05:39
Speaker
Or more recently, financial regulation, right? The Dodd-Frank Act, where whistleblowers could receive 10% to 30% of government recoveries. So it gives a whistleblower some financial incentive to do this. Now, let me ask you this, Kelly. Do you think that that is a good thing that people should be able to whistleblow and collect for doing so?
Challenges Faced by Whistleblowers
00:06:00
Speaker
I think you should reward bravery. um I do. So I don't think it's a bad thing. I do want to ah highlight how difficult it is.
00:06:11
Speaker
You know, some of the whistleblowers that I've interviewed have waited to decades to receive their money and have been in legal battles um during those entire times. And um so it's it's not an easy journey.
00:06:26
Speaker
And it's it's interesting because as as sensationalized as the perpetrator stories are, it's the whistleblower stories that really should make us aunt sit down and listen and really do some self-reflection. Because I've never been a corporate whistleblower. I've never been in that situation.
00:06:47
Speaker
And I hope that if I'm ever presented with that situation, I would respond in the way that some of the people that I've had the privilege of interviewing have. But it is not an easy road. And I think that um I would be not being truthful with myself if I've said, everybody should go out and do this and do it now because it's not easy. I mean, it has...
00:07:12
Speaker
um psychological impact on you. It can have familial impact on you. And so you really have to make sure that you understand the war that you're entering when you become one of these, because you are a hero.
00:07:24
Speaker
But think about what, when we say hero, typically that person has gone through something to be a hero. You don't get that star, that purple heart by just sitting down. You've done something heroic and something physical and something dangerous to have that that name on you. So I just want to say as we get into these stories that we should honor these these folks because it's not easy.
00:07:50
Speaker
but When we first discussed in our previous podcast, we talked about fraud. We talked about the fraud triangle. You know, what gives an opportunity,
Introducing the Whistleblower Triangle
00:07:58
Speaker
right? we have We talked about there's pressure to do things, there's opportunities to do things, there's rationalization to do it. And that's how these perpetrators go about committing the fraud. But you also mentioned in your book something known as the whistleblowing triangle. So what exactly is that?
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah, that was some research that was that I um discovered when I was writing the book. And the whistleblower triangle is very similar. It is the fraud triangle. It's that opportunity rationalization and pressure that a whistleblower experiences. So the same paradigm that you use to analyze a fraud case you can use to analyze a whistleblower case and so a whistleblower is going through a similar thought process and that is what is the pressure what's the personal pressure that i face by not saying anything what's my rationalization why i should say something is it because it's against the law is it because you know i'm going through all of these things and then what opportunities do i have to whistleblow what what if you're within an organization
00:08:54
Speaker
What types of procedures have been put in place for you to share? And are do you feel safe and protected by those procedures? So, The whistleblower triangle is the same as the fraud triangle. And that is trying to help us understand the cognitive processing that that individual is employing to decide to whistleblower because it is a very challenging situation. It really, really is. I don't know if you've ever talked to a whistleblower, but what they face makes you wonder, um do you have the same strength that they have?
00:09:32
Speaker
Okay, so thinking about that first discussion we had with the perpetrators and the prey, you were able to break down into classifications. Perpetrators could be intentional, accidental, righteous.
00:09:46
Speaker
You broke down that victims could be innocent bystanders. They can be organizational targets. But now we're changing gears and we're talking about whistleblowers. And in your book, I noticed you also had three classifications for whistleblowers.
Types of Whistleblowers
00:10:00
Speaker
You had accidental,
00:10:01
Speaker
Noble. And this one sounds interesting. Vigilante. Right. I think like Batman, like Vigilante or the Punisher from Marvel Comics. Right. So maybe we can walk through each of these three different types of whistleblowers, starting first with one that has the same name as a perpetrator. Accidental. Yeah. What's an accidental whistleblower?
00:10:21
Speaker
I argue that the accidental whistleblower is the largest category of whistleblowers. And those are people that just sort of stumble upon and and see something and they say something. But it that wasn't their intention.
00:10:35
Speaker
You know, they are they say they're an auditor. um say they're a CPA, they're working on a client engagement and they notice something that it seems irregular and they share it with their senior or they share it with their director or their partner.
00:10:48
Speaker
And it it ends up being something fraudulent. They were just doing their job. And so they don't necessarily organically agree with now I'm a whistleblower because I was just doing my job. Some people's job dictates them to be whistleblowers. If you think about the role of an auditor, um You know, an auditor is is a compliance officer, so they are making sure that procedures have been followed.
00:11:11
Speaker
So when they see something that has not been followed, are they now a whistleblower? So The um accidental whistleblower category was really inspired by Kathy Swanson for my documentary.
00:11:23
Speaker
um She was the person that noticed that Rita was defrauding the city of Dixon of $53.7 million. dollars So that category was really um in celebration of her and her heroism and saying, hey, something seems off, something seems wrong. I don't know what this is and I'm going to speak up.
00:11:45
Speaker
So that's that accidental whistleblower. She didn't go to work one day and say, hmm, who around here looks suspicious? It's you. She didn't do that. She was just doing her job and noticed a discrepancy and then spoke up.
00:12:00
Speaker
The um noble whistleblower category is slightly different because that is a person that is a group of a is a member of ah a team. and notices a person, notices that the whole team is doing something wrong or turning a turning an eye to um not following the rules and they decide to speak up. So think about, um for example, the Boeing whistleblower who noticed that safety protocols weren't being followed And notice that everybody around that person, notice you guys aren't following this and you know the rules and raises their hand and speaks up. So decides not to engage in the um unethical act that everybody else is seeing. That is the nobles glory because it takes a level of, um um of, of, of um
00:12:50
Speaker
lack of fear to come forward, to come outside of the group and say something. So the net the last category is funny because the vigilante whistleblower is to me the quintessential person that is sitting on their porch watching the neighborhood every day.
00:13:07
Speaker
And the first person that steps out of line, they are calling the authorities. and and And so they will enter into a situation that may not have nothing to do with them, but they notice because they know the rules. And so you can see the benefits of all three archetypes. Now, do you want a full team of vigilante whistleblowers?
00:13:26
Speaker
Probably not. Nobody's getting anything done. But having one in the midst is helpful. And you can probably sit here and think of the times that you have had work relationships. And you know that one person that knows all the rules. They know every rule in the book. There's always one.
00:13:44
Speaker
And if anybody steps out of line, they're going to say something. And so that's not a bad person. um But i I think at this point in my life, at the age I'm i'm at, I feel like from a vigilante whistleblower. I'm telling. If I see it, I'm going like, mm-mm, you know that is not right and it anything to do with me, but I'm going to say something. So those are the three categories. They're slightly different, but all should be celebrated in different ways.
00:14:09
Speaker
OK, so let's just walk through each one of those for a few minutes. So we have the accidental whistleblower, right? It's somebody that sees something and they stumbled across it, like you said, and they just can't ignore it. Great example you brought up, Kath Swanson from Dixon, Illinois. And and I'm going to go through a list here, and I'm going to ask you to comment on a couple of these, not all of them, but these are ones that I think people should be aware of, right? Harry Markopoulos on the Bernie Madoff case, he tried to replicate Madoff's returns and said, wait,
00:14:38
Speaker
I'm a smart guy. This is my business. I can't do what this guy is doing. And he raises a red flag to the SEC or Francis Hogan at ah Facebook and Meta when he comes across internal research about Facebook's harmful impacts and then leaks documents and testifies in front of Congress. You know, these are all whistleblowers that found something, they reported on it. But one that I'd love to hear your insight on is someone you mentioned in your book,
00:15:03
Speaker
Nathan from ING Insurance, and he was manipulating currency rates to steal money.
Accidental Whistleblowers
00:15:09
Speaker
And it was just because of a simple conversation between a coworker and his ex-wife, and all of a sudden, red flags go up everywhere. So how was that discovered?
00:15:21
Speaker
Well, um so Nathan is um what's interesting because Nathan is in the in the book and he's an intentional perpetrator. The reason why his story is mentioned in the whistleblower chapter is because his fraud was discovered by an accidental whistleblower. So he had a friend at work who was actually friends with his wife.
00:15:41
Speaker
And the two of them got together for lunch one day. And the wife commented on how Nathan's behavior just seemed so erratic and he just was acting out of character. He was all of a sudden had all this money that he said that was coming from gambling winnings, but the wife didn't believe, believe him.
00:15:58
Speaker
So the work friend had a gut feeling that there was something off. And so she knew within their department that they all shared passwords. Now that should make the hairs on the back of your neck raised because you know that that's an internal control um weakness. However,
00:16:17
Speaker
If you're in a small team of five people and one person goes on vacation or one person is sick, wouldn't it be so much easier to be able to log in as Sue and get Sue's information that you need to to finish your month your year in your month month in close?
00:16:33
Speaker
Probably. I mean, it's a process issue. I'm never going to do anything with Sue's login besides get what I need. But she knew that they had that process in place. And so something told her.
00:16:45
Speaker
let me go into this system and see if Nathan has ever used my password to go in and do anything. And so when she went into the system, She noticed that Nathan had logged in as her and approved a check and then log um signed off on the check. And then Nathan um then received the proceeds from that check. And so you could see all this within the system of who the payment was made to.
00:17:12
Speaker
And she became alarmed. And what she immediately did was alert their internal forensic team as to what was happening. And, you know, we have this debate my class because sometimes the students are just like, oh, my goodness, I can't believe that one friend would turn in another friend.
00:17:32
Speaker
And so when that conversation started happening in the class. I asked the students, I said, okay we're going to stop time out. I need everybody to take out a piece of paper. And on this paper, I want you to write down who are you willing to go to prison for?
00:17:45
Speaker
And they were like, they sort of paused and everybody drops their pen because they're like, OK, I'm not going to go to prison for anybody. And I said, well, that's the situation that the friend was placed in because she wasn't going to be implicated, didn't want to be implicated. And actually, it took her a process to clear her name, to not be implicated in what he was doing.
00:18:05
Speaker
So his fraud was discovered by a friend. And, um you know, you really have to ask yourself, you know, what would you have done if you had been that work colleague and noticed that had you not spoken up, you would have been perceived as being involved in this? What would you do?
00:18:24
Speaker
Okay, so yeah i just found that example very interesting because you never know where you're gonna stumble across something, right? It's one thing to stumble across records at work, but it's another thing to figure out, oh my God, just two people were having coffee over a lunch and then you stumble across something, right? So you never know where the whistleblower is going to get their information. And if you think about cases like ah Enron and WorldCom, they had their whistleblowers, right? Enron had Sharon Watkins, who discovered the accounting fraud, and WorldCom had Cynthia Cooper. But the one case that, again, struck my interest as I was reading your book was the Wells far Fargo fake account scandals back around 2016,
Case Study: Wells Fargo Scandal
00:19:05
Speaker
right? Wells Fargo was putting a great deal of pressure on their employees to
00:19:10
Speaker
issue new credit cards to customers, open up new bank accounts. So finally, the employees were like, all right, this is just too much pressure. We're going to just kind of make stuff up. And they falsified all this information. And then you talk about whistleblower Lynn that had been working for the company and discovers all of this fake information and has to blow the whistle. And I was amazed on how Wells Fargo treated her. So did you interview her or what did you discover when you were doing the research on that case?
00:19:42
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I did interview her. And I think one of the things um that we talked about in the first segment of this, um this these fraud talks is sort of the book writing process. And I think what made the writing process really fulfilling for me is everybody I have a personal relationship with. So I did, there's not a lot of stories in there that I didn't or people I didn't talk to. And Lynn's story was shocking to me because it spoke to what can actually happen to a whistleblower.
00:20:11
Speaker
You would think if you followed the Wells Fargo scandal and you did a great review of it. If you followed that though, you would think that Wells Fargo was in the wrong.
00:20:22
Speaker
And you have this employee, Lynn, and other employees who spoke up that actually got fired. And so when when Wells Fargo was going on, i was teaching in my graduate forensic accounting class. And I remember being nervous about walking into the classroom talking about whistleblowing because I knew my students were going to be like, see, this is why you don't say anything. Because if you do say something, you're going to get attacked. And so That is what happened to Lynn. I mean, the company was not um on her side.
00:20:53
Speaker
And it really goes to show you what can happen when you are embedded in a corrupt environment. So you know it'ss it's a piece of advice, I think, for our younger listeners, our younger professionals.
00:21:05
Speaker
And that is you really need to make sure you live your life, work your career in the in a way that if you had to leave in two weeks, you could. So you want to always sort of set yourself up that way, because if you don't and you find yourself where you have to leave, it could be a little bit personally tough.
00:21:21
Speaker
And so that's really what Lynn found. She found that when she noticed, she saw firsthand that these falsehoods existed within the Wells Fargo ecosystem. And she was like, oh no, no, no, no. no I'm not signing off on these things. I don't want to be associated with it. And I'm going to report it. Well, when she reported it, she reported it to her like her district manager. And her district manager first response was, I didn't hire you to bring all these problems to me.
00:21:50
Speaker
Who would have ever thought that that would have been the response? But it was. And so she realized then You know, am I going to sink or swim? Let me swim myself out of here because I don't want to ever be blamed in this.
00:22:03
Speaker
And so I think that from an organizational perspective, Wells Fargo is a prime example of how not to handle a scandal. Because when you talk about the amount of fumbles, my goodness.
00:22:16
Speaker
Yeah. And to think about how high that corruption went in the organization, right?
Career Impact on Whistleblowers
00:22:22
Speaker
Because i remember, you know, the story was that, you know people at her level for opening these accounts maybe get a $5,000 bonus, but then the manager gets a $20,000 bonus. The senior manager director gets a $50,000 bonus. So now they're all saying, all right, this Lynn is trouble. And they try to make her look bad. She's got to take the blame. She's a scapegoat. She gets fired. She's vilified. all for trying to do the right thing. and And that's what a lot of these whistleblowers, like you said, have to live through. And that's that's a scary thought.
00:22:51
Speaker
It is, it is, Mike. And and then I think, you know, this is a really real conversation we're having because you have to really assess where you are in your career to see if this is even something that you can withstand. and And so when I think about the whistleblowers that I've had the privilege of interviewing, a lot of them have been a little more senior in their careers so they could take the hit.
00:23:16
Speaker
And for those that are listening, Two whistleblowers that I think you should follow that are a little bit younger are Tyler Schultz from Theranos and Erica Chung, former Theranos too. Erica Chung has a really good TED talk that I think it's worth everybody to listen to that 18 minute talk because even she talks about what she noticed, the data that supported what she noticed and how she was really bullied into not speaking and and why she decided to leave.
00:23:48
Speaker
And I think what we see with Tyler and Erica is the impact of whistleblowing at an earlier stage in your career. There are other whistleblowers like um Kathy Swanson or Mary Willingham we might talk about. She's a story out of my book.
00:24:05
Speaker
But she they they've they faced whistleblowing at a little bit later in their career. So they could withstand the hits, the demotions, the death threats. that They could to withstand that in a different way. So I really think it's something that you have to be very strategic strategic about when you decide if you're going to speak up.
00:24:26
Speaker
All right. So that was the accidental whistleblower, right? They kind of just stumbled across certain information and then they felt that they could not turn a blind eye. They had to speak up. So next on your list is the noble whistleblower. So talk to me about the difference between a noble whistleblower versus an accidental whistleblower. Yeah, the accidental doesn't realize they're speaking up, well, the noble does. So the noble's intention is to be like, I'm raising my hand. This is a problem.
00:24:58
Speaker
You know, that is their point to really to really bring recognition to and to. Something that's unethical that's happening and they're ready for it. The accidental might not be ready for it. So, you know, um Sometimes I think the noble whistleblower faces um a lot of stress and not everybody can deal with the stress. And I think if if you read anything about the blowing whistleblower, unfortunately,
00:25:27
Speaker
he ended up taking
The Noble Whistleblower
00:25:28
Speaker
his own life. I mean, and the pressure of this large multinational company coming after you um can be too much for some people. So again, I think I've had the fortune of um one of my friends and colleagues is Mary Inman, who um is one of the partners. um She just launched ah an agency called the Whistleblower Attorneys. dude That's the name of their law firm now.
00:25:55
Speaker
And they support and they support and litigate on behalf of whistleblowers. And it's interesting because Mary's a lawyer, but she's more of a psychologist than anything because of the pressures that they face. And so I think that the nobles are going into these battles and they know they're going into the battles, whereas the accidentals might not know that the battle is coming.
00:26:22
Speaker
So with respect to these noble whistleblowers, there was a story in your book that really struck a chord with me because it was about your college class. And I you know i have kids who are college age right now and probably in class is very similar to yours. But I think back to when I was growing up, I grew up in the Bronx, good old New York City in the Bronx. And when I went to kindergarten, like five years old, they taught you three things. They taught you your ABCs. They taught you your one, two, threes.
00:26:47
Speaker
And they taught you snitches get stitches. basically is really one of the first things that you learn when you're going to some of these schools. And then I'm listening, yeah listening, I'm reading your book and you talked about in your class, you were giving a test and you know you needed to use the restroom and you came back and afterwards everyone turns in their test. And then a few days later, a student in your class reaches out to you and says, I just want to let you know when you went out of the room,
00:27:16
Speaker
a lot of students were cheating and sharing answers. So that's got to be very difficult for someone to stand up and say that. And it is noble. But, you know, again, it's always that question.
00:27:28
Speaker
Should they be saying that? Should they not be saying that? Are they a hero? Are they villain? This happened in your class. What was your take on that? And how did you handle that? ah First of all, was pissed. I was like, do you guys not know what I do?
00:27:42
Speaker
like So that was the first thing. Second thing, um i I had to really think strategically how I wanted to handle it. So what I did was I sent out an email and said, during that period that I went to the bathroom, hypothetically speaking, if I told you that there was a camera capturing everything that happened in the classroom when I left,
00:28:06
Speaker
I'm about to watch that footage. Is there anything you want to tell me before I watch the footage? That's what I said. I said, hypothetically speaking. And in come the emails and texts, I didn't do anything. I didn't see anything. I'm like, oh my goodness. Had I not triggered them to say something, they wouldn't have said a thing.
00:28:26
Speaker
And so I was disappointed because I had thought that I had created this culture where someone would come up and tell me more people will come up and tell me but that was for me a culture check to realize that what i thought i had in my classroom the vibe the environment actually wasn't the environment and so i probably needed to spend more time talking about the importance of honor and ethics and whistleblowing if need be and i hadn't done that enough so i was really surprised that student
00:28:59
Speaker
that ended up um coming forward. I had to keep um her identity um secret. so sure So, because it was just, um you know, who knows what he was, that student was gonna do when he found out who it was. And, um Somehow the perpetrator, student perpetrator found out who um who the person was and started bullying this person online and created, um a figured out where this person's LinkedIn profile was and started posting all these fake stories about her behavior on an internship. It got bad.
00:29:36
Speaker
But again, she What she did was noble. However, I think she probably she was part accidental and part noble because she did not realize what was actually going to happen as a result of coming forward.
00:29:50
Speaker
Okay, Kelly, let's do a little speed round on the noble whistleblowers. I'm gonna give some real world examples and tell me what you think about these. Now, this is going way back when, but um it's a point when both of us were alive, even though I'm 50 years older than you, we were both here. And you remember in 1986, spaceship- I wasn't born yet.
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Unfortunately, in 86, a space shuttle Challenger exploded and ah astronauts lost their lives. So there was an O-ring defect that was brought up by a whistleblower that was ignored. What happened there?
Historical Examples of Noble Whistleblowers
00:30:25
Speaker
So Roger B. Jollet is a noble whistleblower and I think a historical noble whistleblower because he was that person. He was that insider that noticed and said, hey, ahall if you do this, if if we launch the space shuttle Challenger and temperatures under a certain degree, that O-ring could split and it could be a disaster.
00:30:50
Speaker
No one listened. And when it happened, he was devastated. And so, you know, he had a choice. Am I going to stay quiet or am I going to say, hey, I i tried to prevent this.
00:31:05
Speaker
And so um Roger decided to speak out and he wasn't wrong. You know, he wasn't he wasn't wrong about saying I tried to help. I tried to help. I tried to help. But what ended up happening.
00:31:20
Speaker
And this is from talking to people in the town um that that lived in the community. um So the manufacturer of the O-rings had a manufacturing facility in the town where Roger B. Jolet lived.
00:31:34
Speaker
And when he spoke up, that um company lost their contracts with um with this with NASA. And when they lost their contracts, people lost their jobs.
00:31:48
Speaker
And when people started losing their jobs, they blamed Roger. even though what he was doing was very, very noble, trying to say, listen, this could have been prevented. We need to prevent future issues but by not doing these things.
00:32:03
Speaker
he was He was demonized. And so although he had a very successful relationship um public speaking um career, he faced a lot of backlash through his entire life um because he faced it from his, umm not only his community that he lived in, his faith community as well.
00:32:24
Speaker
And it was it was a very, very long road. So, you know, but um Mr. Beaujolais has since um passed away, but I wonder if if you he could talk to him, if if he looked if he could look back on his life, I wonder would he do the same thing? Because I would imagine that he would have thought he would have been supportive far more than he was. And so, you know, sometimes you need the support from the people closest to you, not the strangers that are around you. And so I think that that can be a little bit harder
00:32:55
Speaker
When you take the seat of the whistleblower. Yeah. Isn't it a similar story for Mr. Kim of the Korean car company Hyundai? And he reported engine defects that they did not want to, you know, um put in any of their reports. He he faced a similar situation, didn't he?
00:33:13
Speaker
He faced a similar situation um and his so did his family, you know, and and and this is what I think what we have to share, because it's important for you to understand all of the things that could go right and could go wrong. So I think, yes, focusing on the money is one thing to focus on. But just imagine that and it'll never happen. What would you do anyway?
00:33:37
Speaker
um Because he did face a very similar thing. Um, he ended up winning his lawsuit as the last time I talked to Mary Inman attorney Inman. I don't know. this was ah probably about a year or and a half ago when i asked her, had he received his money? And at that point in time, he had not received his payout yet.
00:33:55
Speaker
Um, but hopefully fingers crossed it comes, but it's, it's, it's tough. The ostracized, the, um, How we ostracize people that come forward to say something right and truthful is just shocking.
00:34:10
Speaker
and And that can't be like we have got to change that kind of dynamic because you don't want the people that know the truth to be silent. You never want that. You really, really don't. Yeah.
00:34:22
Speaker
Snitches get stitches. But we need to add something else to that. What what can we add to it? um Truth tellers get something. like We got to add something to it. We'll have to think about what that be. to think about that. But yeah, it's true. And I mean, he's supposed to get, I think it was some pretty large number, like $24 million. dollars or something, but right, I don't think he's rec received it yet. so So we had Mr. Bijolet trying to talk about the O-rings and save astronauts, Mr. Kim trying to avoid engines from having you know really severe defects where people could die. And and how about another one, Jeffrey Wigand in the tobacco industry, and what did he come forward with and blow the whistle
Jeffrey Wigand's Story
00:35:02
Speaker
on?
00:35:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you think about it now that one, you know, I remember when that 60 Minutes interview came on, like that was pretty, pretty big because he was the person that spoke out and said cigarettes are actually addictive. And there is um a chemical that we place in it that creates that addiction. He's the person that said that. I mean, the tobacco industry, like, could you imagine the coming, just just just saying that. But he was that person who did it and again, faced a ton of backlash. And so, you know, what we're talking about is sort of like how um how social media lives in our lives. We only see the good, you know, we only post the good. We don't know the backstory. And I think that there is a whistleblowing backstory that we have to talk about so that people are strong enough to get through that storm.
00:35:57
Speaker
Okay, so we have the accidental whistleblower. We went through the noble whistleblower. The last one we have is the vigilante whistleblower. So again, tell me what a vigilante whistleblower is, and then maybe we could talk about some examples of them.
00:36:13
Speaker
Yeah, you know, the vigilante whistleblower is that person that they're gonna tell it, you know, whether it has anything to do with them or not. And again, there is a value for that person too, because we need that, um let's call them the hall monitor that knows all the rules, that keeps the ship sailing straight. We need that person. And so they sometimes can be what we all think all whistleblowers are. We think that so many whistleblowers are just people that have a gripe, that want to just complain, that are just troublemakers, that are never satisfied. And that's not true. And I think that that was why I really wanted to focus on those other two categories, because everybody is not that. you know But all three components are necessary, I think, to make an organization run smoothly.
00:37:03
Speaker
Um, some examples of a vigilante whistleblower are probably a little bit more casual than they are, um, anything else. You know, it's the older, it's the older person in that community that knows every rule should be followed. Like, you know, who this person is, everyone has them, or you might have them in your family. You might have them in your sorority, your faith community. You know who this person is.
00:37:27
Speaker
um I'm trying to think of a good, yeah how How about I give you some and you tell me if these qualify as vigilante. Let's do it that way. So when I think vigilante, I think of someone, like you said, they're taking personal risks because they want to bring certain situations to light.
Controversial Cases: Little League Incident
00:37:43
Speaker
So there's a story about the about Chris Jaynes and the JRW Little League right in Chicago, right? That one I found in your book. I thought that one was really interesting. Maybe you could give a little backstory on that.
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah. So Chris was um a coach of a little league team and his little league team lost to the team that ended up going to the, um, the, uh, world series for a little league.
00:38:10
Speaker
And, Chris was fine until he found out that the team that he lost to had older teammates and people from outside of the district.
00:38:21
Speaker
And so Chris wasn't wrong. Like the team composition rules weren't followed. But when Chris came forward and said, hey, hey, hey, this isn't right. And um this the kids that, you know, they went all the way to the White House. I think this is when President Obama was in office.
00:38:39
Speaker
You know, they went all the way to the White House. And ultimately, when Chris voiced his opinion, an investigation was launched. And if I remember correctly, these kids lost their title.
00:38:53
Speaker
there's a whole movie There's a whole movie about this. A friend of mine made the documentary about this. And um yeah, but Chris wasn't wrong. Like, that's the interesting thing. What he said wasn't wrong, but what people came, they attacked him. They said that he was a sore loser.
00:39:11
Speaker
They said he was a racist. They said everything under the sun about this guy. And He wasn't wrong. They did not follow the rules. But sometimes the person that is coming forward can be can present like this. You're just a sore loser.
00:39:28
Speaker
And you know what Chris said in his interview? I was a sore loser. Yeah, I didn't want to lose. If I'm a lose, I want to lose fairly. I don't want to lose because someone cheated me out. And and you can understand that. So it was at it was debatable.
00:39:42
Speaker
That was a big Chicago story. Yeah, hero or villain, right? You could definitely argue both sides. And you could see like the parents of these kids in the neighborhoods where they're coming from. They're so proud. And now all of a sudden someone's saying, uh-uh-uh, you cheated. We're taking this all away from you, right? You go from euphoria to total dejection. oh my goodness. like I can't imagine the emotional role.
00:40:03
Speaker
It's hard. They did cheat. Mm-hmm. Yeah. problem The problem is, too, the kids probably didn't even know they cheated, right? You know, it's really at a higher level. I mean, I don't know.
00:40:13
Speaker
Well, now, let maybe not. let Let's say, OK, let's fast forward to the Varsity Blues story where you had the USC kids, the ah how many schools were did we have some from Yale? Like those kids knew.
00:40:32
Speaker
Because you knew that you never have rowed before. You were never on a row team. And your parents, are you you knew that you didn't take the SAT on this day. You knew that that wasn't your school. So in some cases, yes, they do know.
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, on that same thought, what about ah back in 2012 with Mary Willingham and the UNC athletic academic scandal, right? We know that a lot of these athletes aren't going to class or they're getting straight A's, but they never even show up. And she brought this to light, right? And it really had a significant impact on the University of North Carolina. Is she someone else that you interviewed? Absolutely, Mary. Yeah, yeah. And that was a big scandal, too, because I think what was interesting with her story is everyone thought, well, yeah, of course that's the case.
00:41:23
Speaker
But folks, is it right? You know, like, well, you have to really think about the damage that you're doing to these kids. A lot of these kids are coming from communities um that might have be a lower socioeconomic status. So for you to say you do not care the value of the education that they that they earn is talking about their future earnings. For you to say you don't care about that and you just, are who cares? Of course, this is the case.
00:41:50
Speaker
Mary didn't like that. So, yes, she spoke up, spoke out, and people hated her because you don't say anything against UNC. You just don't do that. And so she faced a lot. So she will be a great example of a vigilante.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, i'm i'm one more vigilante, and this one, we could probably spend an entire podcast really just kind of going on back and forth. And it's it's not that old, but it's a while ago. It was Edward Snowden,
Edward Snowden: Righteous Perpetrator
00:42:19
Speaker
right? And the whole national security and Lincoln classified information about surveillance programs.
00:42:26
Speaker
Is he a vigilante whistleblower or is he something else? I put Snowden as a righteous perpetrator. And I say he's righteous. I say he's a perpetrator because he did break the law.
00:42:39
Speaker
But I think the reason why he did it was because he was trying to, quote, help people. So I put him, i can't call him truly a whistleblower because ah because he did break a law.
00:42:50
Speaker
And so that he's interested in. and And he also was part of the inspiration for um that will that um righteous perpetrator category because he felt like he was doing the right thing. But the way he did it was against the laws that were set around the role that he had.
00:43:09
Speaker
Yeah. And if I remember from your book, you correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he got like almost $2 million dollars in speaking fees, like another $4 million dollars in a book advance fee. So he's breaking the law, doing this information, reaping benefits monetarily.
00:43:25
Speaker
But is what he's saying coming forward for the good of the country, or for the good of himself? I don't know the answer to that. Capitalism at his finest, right? So, yeah, I mean, and and no, I don't think that he knew that would be the outcome. You know, I don't think that he never spoke to him, did not interview the him, but I would imagine that he didn't think, gosh, if I take this, if I take this information, if I publish this information, if I break the law, i probably will be able to earn a lot of money and fees one day. I doubt that he thought about that, but maybe, maybe. Okay, fair enough. So so wrapping this up, you know if we come full circle here, we have fraud, right? That's somebody doing some lying, stealing, or cheating, right? And there's a lot of different ways that they can do this. We have these perpetrators that do it, and then there are the victims, and they prey on these innocent victims. And the only way the perpetrators get in trouble
00:44:19
Speaker
if we have these whistleblowers. So if these whistleblowers never exist, if they never come forward, then the perpetrators can go on and on and on preying on these victims. So we don't want that. So to your first point, you said, hey, whistleblowers should be heroes. And we said that's true most of the time. So let me just ask you, you know you wrote this book, you did this documentary, you've interviewed so many people.
00:44:47
Speaker
What do you get out of it? are we Is there anything different we can do to help whistleblowers? Are there laws that should be changed? Or what's your overall feeling on this whole fraud cycle?
Supporting Whistleblowers: Organizational Role
00:44:58
Speaker
think we should make sure that we're establishing organizations where people have outlets, um where they can share if they need to, and they are protected and feel empowered to do such. Because I think if we if we silence those voices, we won't get anywhere. And I think we're at a moment in time where we need to find strength in those voices to share what they're saying so that we can move forward.
00:45:24
Speaker
All right. Well, that's well said. And that's really a great wrap to this. So Kelly, I learned so much reading your book and watching the documentary and just listening to all your answers. So again, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be here. And hopefully one day we're going to be able to talk about your next great big project.
00:45:43
Speaker
Okay. That sounds good. Thanks so much for having me. Well, thanks again, Kelly. I really appreciate you being part of this podcast. And I wanna make sure everyone out there is aware that you can earn CPE credit just for listening to this podcast. Just visit the link in the show notes to get your credit.
00:46:02
Speaker
And even better news, if you're already a Prime CPE subscriber, you can earn CPE at no extra cost. Just log in to finalize your credits. And that's a wrap today. Thanks, everyone. We hope to see you in a future Cool Careers in Accounting podcast.