Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to GoodPing. They've been having this conversation for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years about the recognition of about cave dwellings and the fact that there is painting on caves, right? It didn't serve a purpose for a function that had to be made. It had to be documented and there was no stopping the artist that did that.
Speaker: It has never gone away. Mankind has not evolved to the point that, yeah, I don't need to be creative anymore. That doesn't work that way.
Speaker: We are back with season three and this is the premiere where Jeremy and i kick off this new season titled The Artful Life, A Season About Making. We are exploring the idea everyone is a maker by moving past this academic gatekeeping of who gets to be called an artist. The act of making art isn't restricted to traditional canvases. It is an inescapable compulsion to create.
Speaker: It's a form of artistic expression that has defined our humanity since the dawn of prehistoric cave paintings, which we talk about. This episode is an invitation into artful living, exploring what it looks like when we treat our ordinary days as raw material.
Speaker: The topics we're going to explore start off with the idea of bursting out of this frame, this compulsion to bring what's inside of us out. We talk about topics like form and function and we try to do so in a way that's not scholastic, but really explores what this split means and how it begins to convey intent and what is within us.
Speaker: We also talk about imitation as a start to finding our voice, not as a conclusion. Then we move into this idea that there's oftentimes within us a rise and fall of wanting stability and structure. Eventually that needs to give way to chaos and what's novel. We touch briefly on selling out, which we will be discussing in a full episode later on.
Speaker: And finally, we end with that compulsion that unites us across time that emerged early in human history. We're covering a lot of ground in this first session. And without wasting any more time, we're just going to jump right into it. Welcome to season three. We're glad you're here.
Speaker: So exciting season three. Yes. Wow. Here we are. It was it was ah a road to get here. We've gone through two seasons now. I feel, first of all, that those two seasons were absolutely necessary. They're good. I love i love those two seasons. yeah But each one has been a little bit more of an evolution.
Speaker: and And even in the eyes of what is good pain... of it more and more feeling like it has a point of view that is starting to teach us a little bit more of what does it need to be? What does it want to be?
Speaker: What is it? I think both of us have had this, uh, at times challenge of people asking us this question of what, what is your good, what is your podcast about? This is a hard question for me to answer. Yeah. Yeah. um Can I tell you what I tell them? Yeah. It's a great conversation, which sounds self-boasting now, which I just realized, but I tell them it's not like other podcasts that you might have heard and there's some heavy lifting at times.
Speaker: And as a listener, it's not about things that they would assume that I'm into. It's not about arts or woodworking or hockey or Tetris playing. Those are my three gifts. Yeah. Then that kind of leaves them a little bit flat like, oh, okay, you haven't told me what it is. You've told me what it's not. yes And so um I think now we're just throwing another curveball about what is good pain, but there is there is a vision. There is a a big picture idea about what it is. And yeah so we're going to pass more volume into that and um and show it in a different way. How do you describe what good pain is?
Speaker: Yeah, it's challenging to to explain and translate a little bit of what it it feels like is a knowingness within myself of this is what we're either trying to accomplish. And so sometimes it's it's metaphors. I think there's two predominant metaphors that we've used. But I'll use a phrase that it's it's about the experiments of truth that we all confront ourselves.
Speaker: Over the course of of living that that we want to move away from here's the answers. Here's what you should be doing and just practice this idea of speaking from heart to heart. And the metaphors that we use for that is the the first one that was the most predominant was the campfire scenario. where if you were to ask the question, when you gather around the campfire, what are you talking about? We're just talking about the things that come up and refusing to be conclusive about them, to say that, hey, this is what I experienced. Therefore, this is what I'm going to do next, or this is what I believe. or it's It's more...
Speaker: We're so tired and so exhausted from constantly trying to make sense of the world so that we can encapsulate an answer that allows us to move forward, to make decisions. There's a degree of just being starved for surrendering to the exhaustion of I've done a lot of work through the day. I went hiking. i went fishing. We've been under the sun. We've been doing all the things. Yeah. We just need to let go. yeah and surrender to sharing what's coming up in the moment, what are the stories, what's the things that are happening to us, and talk less about what the answer is and why and how we are where we are.
Speaker: That is the long definition. Most people turn off, depending on the situation, they're like, I was just asking you what the podcast was about. I didn't, it's funny. And that leads to, you know, after the campfire metaphor, the other metaphor is the excavation site.
Speaker: where we don't know, let's jump into the sandbox together. Let's define what this is and just start pulling things away. And you know when when you're starting a dig site and you're getting through the first layer of sediment, you move a little bit more fast. You're able to clear away the detritus and the things that are covering up whatever is deep. But as you so approach that, you slow down.
Speaker: You become a little bit more cautious, a little bit more careful. to see what is going to emerge as some nebulous shape is there. ah You don't know what it is yet, but we we're just doing the work of pulling apart and seeing what does come forward. Good pain as a picture of conversations that are excavations and experiments of some truth without needing to defend it, without needing to argue the pros and cons,
Speaker: And just letting it emerge and being charmed by what our stories are teaching us and what they can do to teach each other about what it means to listen, to hear each other. And that to be enough without needing to jump to, to, well, therefore. We don't want be constrained by needing to have a therefore. We want to trust each other that whatever the sharing of this, the vulnerability, the genuine nature of our stories brings up within you. Let's resist the urge to ask the question of, should it be bringing this up within me? How does this fit with my worldview? Is this something that is valid that our experience, even in sharing our stories with one another, is enough?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I think the tidy wrapping a bow of, or on something is a big ask and also not always helpful. So I've enjoyed listening to our conversations here, even before we had microphones and, I'm just super pleased and honored that we can do it again. Yeah. So with that, should jump into season three with is the creative creative experience?
Speaker: As always, I feel like the conversation we just had briefly. Yeah. Tease it up. That's perfect. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Well, this will be episode one. Episode two will probably be longer. And that's good. All right. Yeah.
Speaker: So ah you you approached me about this concept. and the creative of artwork and the creative expression. i'm like, yeah, I'm in. I don't need to hear anymore. This is a world that I feel like I understand I've had a lot of time in, but also it's so great to hear other perspectives, other examples of this. And we're planning on having a lot of guests that also can enlighten us as far as their processes as well. So this is going to be, I'm so excited for just having this talk in ways that I think a lot of other podcasts don't you And um yeah there's a lot to be learned about the hows and the whys.
Speaker: Yeah, I am equally excited. It's having that metaphorical, allegorical mind, the relationship that I have to expression itself, making to art has always felt very personal. And i in the minute that I say that, that makes it sound like like you that that it's unique.
Speaker: But the more I bump into people, yeah it's not unique. It's not. that everybody has this, this yearning longing deep within them to express what it is they're experiencing through, through ways. Yeah. That, that, and, and that words often fail and, and that even though why sometimes even in the structuring out of what, what this season was, we went through an aspect of, are we talking about art? Well, that,
Speaker: It has a connotation of kind of the medium centric aspect of art that it is that there's, there's a category of art that is itself defined only by the various media, paint, charcoal, moving pictures, audio, all these pieces that equals art. And those are the generally accepted categories. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's a tough conversation. and and And it is a tough conversation. It's also something that is it excludes really what we just started with is the nature of of like everybody has this compulsion. The availability of it for everybody the part, right? Especially when you get into things like sculpture and um casting and stonework, those things, you don't just stumble into that. That is a serious level of commitment and it doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker: Yeah, we we use it as this means to to almost say, you know, are you an artist? And and and we basically discard yeah the the limiting aspect of defining and saying, I i fit in the bucket of artists. And we're we're essentially saying, and this might be the first challenge,
Speaker: that we're inviting everyone into is is is that we're not going to defend this and we're not going to prove that. Yeah. We're just going to say we are all artists. and And that's what tipped it over into this idea of maybe we do need some language that that is more, ah undermines the exclusivity aspect of it and pulls for that more calling in, yeah which is why we went a little bit more towards the the idea of making. We are all makers. Yeah.
Speaker: We all make decisions. We all make art in some way. There is something that we produce that is far more reflective in and of itself of what our internal experience is navigating this world than then the explanation of whether it has utility, value, economic value, or or or outcome or impact that And yet there's something about putting this out into the world and it interacting in a way where it takes on a life of its own. That also is a part of the experience that we're we're having. Even if that's putting something out there that reflects something deeply held about myself. through whatever medium that may be that doesn't land the way that, that I intended it to be. And what does that, and these, that's a part of what I think we're going to be exploring through conversations with others, through, through conversations here, um, as, as we evolve.
Speaker: So we're sitting in your office once again, and I'm looking at a piece that was a a biographical piece. And you have done this over the series of several months or years. This has been a lengthy process. That one...
Speaker: that one was was a when i look at it i think it it it took about five months to produce it yeah it encapsulates one snapshot in time with where where that that reflects where i was at that time the accumulation of where i was was and but it is yeah pretty comprehensive of at that point very close to midlife like everything that led up to that point in time so it And it continues to evolve in what it means for me and my relationship to it as a piece of art. So i love that. It reads that way to somebody who knows you. And i I love unpacking it when I get the chance to. We also have a color wheel as well.
Speaker: So there's obviously a nod, a recognition to some of the traditional trappings of what creation of two-dimensional work especially is. Can you tell us about where that came from, where it started for you? The color wheel itself reflects a way of perceiving the world through a framework. That activity itself points to a contrast in my life that itself I have wrestled with for for the duration of my life is finding means of creating contrast. like that that That for me is one aspect that has always charmed me.
Speaker: Creating contrast, differentiation, subverting, doing the unexpected. When you look at certain points within my life where there's there's a degree of predictability is is that when things for me have started to feel more structured, more stable, I get some wild hair or I get something that says, i i need to pierce this veil of apparent stability. And why this all tracks with the color wheel or principles of contrast or sharpness or focus is,
Speaker: One of those was visual storytelling. For me, visual storytelling has been a big part of me, whether it's it's predominantly in photography, cinematography, so moving pictures, still steal pictures. And being able to actually convey the thing within me that I'm excited about, that I can feel in my body. That's an important point. Yeah. Like there's something inside that needs to come out and the structure of who I am at any present moment, my skills, my ability to bring that thing that's inside me and convey it in a way that now exists independent of me is going through that experience of saying, i know what it is. Then I go and I pick up the tools to try to produce it and it falls woefully short. it it's Yeah, that's a reality. It's like, am I proud of what I produced? Am I? Yeah, but this isn't it yet. is like yeah
Speaker: like it it This is not my voice yet. true But it is a reflection of my current present status as being able to convey that thing. And so the there's certain things around here. The color wheel is is one, which I've always liked in producing ah visual storytelling. Color is always one that I have a love-hate relationship with. Oh, tell me why, what's going on Because of the way color can distract.
Speaker: Oh, okay. Whether that's through the lack of balance or the the conflicting of certain tones. Learning over time that when I take a picture of a sunset, and this is the classic example, I think that yeah we all have seen so many pictures of individuals who have yeah been at a sunset. I've seen more images of sunsets yeah that if I was to take, if I didn't know that person, it's a it's just a bad picture. It's hard to harness the beauty and the splendor of that moment because the subject really should be the sun that's going around the earth one more time. That should be it. And then people throw themselves in the way and then they're all underexposed and the light balance of that situation just does not exist playfully unless you have all the right reflective lighting option. Like it just doesn't work, right? So you're hoping for the best, but execution of that is a hard, hard thing.
Speaker: The degree of starting to understand and use the fact that not only is my skillset trying to replicate what I have gotten to witness, what I've gotten to seen to capture the emotional aspect of that experience, the, That's also limited by the tools themselves in the same way that language may not be able to, we have the phrase, you know, a a picture is worth a thousand words. what What does that actually mean?
Speaker: it it means that the limitations, is is that about the power of the picture or is that also about the limitation of language to convey a subjective experience where you have to, through your senses, experience that in your own body? Yeah.
Speaker: And that, that words cannot do that. yeah There are some great artists with words that can do that. Yeah. But for many of us, we even say the phrase like, oh, you had to be there, right? Like that's the conveying of a story. It's also the worst possible way to tell a story. It is. is. And it, but all of these are, are calling us to the limitations of one of two things, the limitation of the medium itself, the limitation of the medium and the tools that are available to prop up that medium that, you or the limitations of my skills as a craftsman, as a technician, to be able to use the tools that are available effectively. And so part of the color wheel being on the wall is this reminder that the tools are there. It's also a reminder that the tools of that medium is about limited spectrum for what happens in the eyes. Okay, sure. We're getting technical now. Yeah. Only, yes, that color wheel only deals with the visual limitations of the human eye and that there's still so much more about the experience that cannot be reduced to that. And that to me, when I start talking about then contrast and when we look at the color wheel, complementary colors and different technical, the color theories, all of those pieces,
Speaker: are about equipping me with becoming a better craftsman, a better technician. Yeah. When limitations start increasing, this what I start to itself feel the rise of needing contrast within myself. Oh, wow. Okay.
Speaker: Okay. An example of this is Tiffany and i were talking this morning. I was, when I was 17 and in an art ah high school art class, yeah we were given a assignment. It was a negative space assignment. So for, or I want to try to throughout this season, make sure that we're not talking about the what's of these, but I, sure. But holding you know the negative space project, you're given construction paper, you're given a scene, or you have to come up with a scene that you're going to replicate by just seeing yeah the the landscape. Not the object. That's right. But through or past.
Speaker: I'm sorry. that's you No, yeah I think that's a great... And and that's ah it's an exercise in perception. yeah right Can you see the world not through the definition of the objects? Can you see it? That's right. yeah So there's a training of the eye that's going on and and a way of trying to expand that world. and And I see the utility of that. But I also start to feel I've always had this... I reach a certain threshold where I'm like, I'm done with the rules and I need to i need to break through the... I just...
Speaker: The exercise itself, I get it. I understand it. And that creates within myself a tension of one, continuing to submit to something to be learned. It's important to learn those skills because there's a limitation within myself and making sure that I understand the brief that is as it is given. But this one stands out to me because there was a point where I got it. I understood. i started to get really bored with the exercise itself. Which by its very nature, for those you haven't done it, is lengthy. You have to sit with that scene and pencil and paper for an extended period of time. And a lot of people, especially now, and I'm showing my age a little bit, have a really tough time, which is the pretense of that, right? Just sitting in silence, basically. yeah You could listen to music, but silence of your mind yeah and you have to be proactive. It's hard. It's ah it's a tough thing. Yeah, I don't, I can't define exactly when the alien with the bazooka showed up in the scene that was not there yeah before. Yeah. Um, but you started fabricate things just to entertain yourself. I, and, and I get the, I get the, the assignment back several weeks later, uh, with a grade that indicated that my instructor was not pleased with my reverence for the exercise. Didn't get the joke. No. And felt the degree of rebelling. Did it get personal at that point? It did. at that point, it was, i will not be put into a box. I i will. i couldn't even imagine a 17-year-old Tyler. yeah That's amazing. because
Speaker: But reflecting on that, it's a lot of my patterns yeah within the the being the ah author of my own life, of of finding that a ah lot of how I have expressed my is this need to understand the rules um to grasp them to understand the context in which they're operating yeah and then say no more i i've gotten it enough it is i think we've talked about this maybe before but i have i have our art on my arm tattoos and and there's an aspect
Speaker: of that There's a version of Tyler throughout the corporate world that presented as buttoned up, straight, straight laced, responsible.
Speaker: i assume, I'm sorry again, no yeah ah that was a requirement a necessity for you to survive in that space, at least to a point. Yeah. And it was a it was something that that I had relented to because I am a husband. I am a father. I have, this is the, by playing that role, learning the rules, playing it really well. Yeah.
Speaker: um accelerate yeah using all my powers of creativity and all of those and funneling them into ah an avenue of value for somebody else. I get to share in some of that value by by pulling down a paycheck that especially for for myself and the age that I was early on in my career, going and getting an MBA, the one of the the straightest things that you can do.
Speaker: um for for being beholden to that paradigm yeah that's going to raise my ceiling. It was halfway through my my MBA where I'm working, I'm spending time with my family, I'm checking all the boxes on this is what a good life starts adding up to. And I start feeling that sense of um this is too constraining. yeah And I know I cannot blow the whole thing up.
Speaker: So what do I do for myself? That is a reclamation of the fact that there are aspects of this that I'm participating in that produce the food on the table roof over my family's head. Sure. But this does not represent me. And and that's when I got my first tattoo. and And it was, I went big. It's a big piece. It's, and, and I knew that Was everybody surprised the battleship yeah theme that you went with? um it it's the The piece itself is is really interesting because it it is deeply personal. Yeah, as it should be, right? And yet also, so I knew there was this thing that said like, has this awareness that...
Speaker: I know what I want this to represent. I know what i the ah the structure of what I want to convey. At the same time, it the act itself was an act of rebellion. And in fact, the farther I've gotten away from it, the more I point to it really was, aside from the form and the the elements that i that I decided to include, it it could have been actually much different.
Speaker: yeah sure The predominance of of the act of getting a tattoo was really what drove me to make the decision is this is this is me giving the middle finger to, i can say the object of the corporate world, but to the demand of the world to tell me to fit a shape.
Speaker: would Would it be fair to say society who received the one of the middle finger to go to? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I will not. And it's not that they were doing it to me. It's that- The conformity though.
Speaker: It is the conformity. Because you felt like you had Okay. Yeah. And so there was something that for me was this outward expression going into work, wearing a button down shirt. And yes, it's business casual. And yes, on Fridays, we get to express with jeans. And I'll- And knowing that all of those even rules themselves, or I mean, just so comically prosaic and lip service to, Hey, we understand, you know, we need, we need the ability to cut loose a little bit. I'm like, I'm not going to cut loose in your sanctioned ways of doing that. The listening audience cannot recognize my disdain and displeasure in my face right now, but all of that just seems so forced and painful to hear. But I know this is the reality. It is. And many our listeners probably deal with that. And I can't be judgmental of that if that works, but the fact that somebody would tell me what to wear and what is appropriate for this environment, I'm just like, oh my gosh. Yeah. What have I gotten myself into? Yeah. Okay. There are some pieces that I have seen through some artists with access to a broader portfolio that's available through the web, through the internet, all that, that also capture this. I don't know if you've seen some of these artists, one in particular that goes to thrift shops and finds these very standard landscapes and then brings them back and predominantly- Anything that your grandparents would have had in their home that may or may not have been passed down to your parents. Yeah. It's these pastoral scenes. Yes.
Speaker: That, that. Lake, mountains. Yes. Green primarily. Yes. Sun blues. Yes. No flowers, no brightness. And, and then goes through the exercise. And there's two layers of this that I like. One, it says that there's, there's layer one, which is just.
Speaker: these individuals paint something into the scene yeah that is contrasting to the scene. It's almost like, um, the, the, the expected pastoral scene must be disrupted by r two d two yep or, or a, or a if for those, a lot of these that I've seen are Star Wars related. Those are the best ones.
Speaker: They are some chicken walker or walking through it. It's pop culture. Yes. It is very much in conflict, uh, thematically, but also there is this brightness of just like, yeah, this is just providing me not a blank canvas, but a starting point to create this thing that does not fit. And it works so well. My favorite is when they also mess with the frames. Yeah.
Speaker: but So that was level two. That is level two. Is the chicken walker blasting two bolts that are exploding out out of the frame. And there's something like that's the, there's something inside of me. Look,
Speaker: 10 years from now, I could look back on this and we can see the kitsch. We can see like the- Yeah, sure. Right. But it's a snapshot of a point in time that says the frame cannot hold. That is something that has been deeply consistent across my life. and And looking back over where did, what was the nature of the expression that resonated with me? And I have bounced from medium to medium and all over the place of forms of expression. That's right. Whereas some find reinvention within various degrees of medium. And I love all of it. and
Speaker: and it's But for me, the moment that I start to get comfortable with something and feel like, yeah, I know what it's about, is the moment I feel that that within my life, the... the the landscape of my pastoral life, I need to burst out of that frame. yeah And, and that has routinely come up over and over and over, even within where we kind of started here with, with good pain is, is that I'm very sensitive to when it starts to feel prosaic and, and
Speaker: And part of that, I think, you know, seasons one and two were about building the craft, building the techniques of understanding of of what is, and now feeling that's that and knowing that most likely at some point, even season three is going to start feeling prosaic to me. And, and, and I think that part of what I'm excited about is this knowingness that because we're defining making art creative expression in such a broad way, it's like, no, we, this could go on for a while, which is why we kind of ah have this plan that this season is most likely going to at least run for six months. Yeah. um Because there's so many different ways to find ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: But how about you? I've mentioned this before, only child. And so that created a lot of isolation. And that's not a bad thing that for me, that was exactly what I needed in and hindsight. And so i got bored easily and I found creative ways to deal with boredom and express and pull things apart and start banking with those things. I did a lot of the traditional stuff in elementary and junior high and high school where art classes and those things. And I had some promise with that, but I think it wasn't until I got into sculpture. I was primarily an oil painter in high school and I did a lot of that work and that was good, but it was always challenging in a way that is difficult to describe. But
Speaker: I was never able to enact that vision as clear as as clearly as it was in my mind. but I think a lot of makers and artists could relate to that. And so it wasn't until I got to college where um i had a very different path in mind. I was going to not study fine arts. And so I planned to do that. And I did it and realized, oh, yeah, this is horrible. I can't do this. And so I gravitated back into the art classes So that was fantastic for me. For me, when it really started to light ah light up is there was a really non-OSHA approved wood shop that everybody was terrified of. There's there's oily rags that are just in a bin somewhere getting ready to spontaneously combust. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. But the safety measure there is they would write flammable on top of it. So and so at least you know what's coming. Yes. Fortunately, being in a high school that had woodshop. And so I studied carpentry. And cabinet making other things and the hook was set, but I didn't realize it. So I loved all that, um, stepped away and study this non fine arts thing and quickly came back and gravitated, but I gravitated to this wood shop that nobody used because they were terrified of it. Uh, the painters would use it for making stretchers for the canvases. And that was pretty much it. So for me, I would just set up people knew where to find me on campus.
Speaker: It was, I was there all the time and it was fantastic. Uh, and I learned a lot as far as process there. So I was able to refine from the things I learned in high school. And, uh, you, you just said it was fantastic.
Speaker: It was fantastic. Yeah. Was it the ah isolation and the There's a part of it. Yeah. We've met before. What about that made it fantastic? um Yeah. So you have you have made this very clear to our listening audience that I may suffer from introversion and that is a fact.
Speaker: ah So yeah, I think I'm much more comfortable with my own thoughts and solitude and reverting back to my upbringing. I just got used to kind of that volume. And so became, felt very right, very comfortable. But also there was some recognition about my chops in this space. And so hanging out with other creative people that are working on these other things, the conversations were great, but really unlimited access to doing this thing. And the thing that I was crazy about was a gift from heaven. it was amazing. it was great. And I just realized that I wanted to do more in this for the rest of my life. And this was kind of the path I want to pursue. So I was very fortunate that way. um A lot of the time they didn't know what to do with me because I knew I wanted to go down a specific path that was more focused on utility and furniture kind of made sense working with this material. But ah painting, sculpture, ceramics, horses that I would take, none of that really fit. into that structure or format. So I remember it was our senior thesis exhibition. And so we had to go in front of all the fine art faculty. And there was a photography faculty member who saw my, what I thought to be the finest piece of plywood furniture ever created. he said, And I put so much energy into this. And anyway, so I just, I roll it in there and then they, so I do the setup in the gallery space and then they would all come in. And I was kind of in the shadows and and she said one thing. It was a question for the rest of of her peers, but she said, oh, not who made this. She said, where did this come from? Meaning which department would have this type of work? And like, oh, okay, great. All of the effort that I had made just totally lost on you, which again was a gift. I'm like, okay, you're not my audience. I don't have to worry about you.
Speaker: So in there, I realized that I love this and I loved it so much. And I wanted to get involved with this and do it more and more. And I knew being an educator in this space made sense so grad school and at this point i found a grad school that recognized the brilliance of why utility in a creative endeavor was beneficial so i studied this woodworking furniture design and so yeah it was it was a great fit it was fun and uh grad school was i've always equated it to being in basic training if you're if you're in the military with one major distinction
Speaker: So they will break you down in art school. ah There is no thought, concept, nor desire to build you back up. yeah So you are the punching bag every single day. And so that was the proving ground. And so long answer to your question about where this came from for me. But yeah, there's always this need to get involved with material, get involved in making things. ah The form has always been something that appeals to me, maybe much more than expression of concepts.
Speaker: okay And so that was very easy for me to start to play around with those. And then when expression starts to come into that, I think that's where worlds collide and explosions go off in my brain and my soul and the good kind of explosions. And so it's it's very magical. Yeah.
Speaker: the makers that are listening. It's just time totally evaporates. And, um, and it's just, you feel like you're in that flow state, um, which is again, ah super addict addictive drug that could not be replicated any other way. It's just so fantastic.
Speaker: So you mentioned this aspect of having an emphasis on the form. What do you mean by that? And how does it grab you? In traditional artwork, there is typically the concept in whatever the medium, the two-dimensional, three-dimensional work. And so there should be some type of theme or message that's trying to be conveyed. And I think there's validity to that. That's great.
Speaker: In my work, I've never made a commentary on political or social injustice things. None of those things are something that I could refine in a way that I can feel is beneficial. So for you, that, that those kinds of denotations of political, that that's the, there's a function, the concept part of it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, think so. I think conveying a message or a commentary- It has a purpose associated with it. Yeah. And I think it hits a different audience. And I think that that's huge and that's great. For me, that has always been too upsetting, too frustrating, too anger producing for me to then harness and express in this very safe place for myself, which is going to be being creative and making beautiful things. That's my goal at least. So I i separated those things pretty early on. And so so that's the form comes in into play pretty quickly as far as just looking at an object for its inherent beauty and the contrast that it may create in the space that it goes into. All of that is wildly appealing to me.
Speaker: I think this is a helpful framework for us oftentimes because on the conceptual level, like political messaging, those pieces, there is something that's being conveyed. There's a purpose. There's an agenda that's attached to that. That's right. And part of what we talk about in in differentiating between there's a function here that the artist artist has for that.
Speaker: that that can be very that can be close or far away from the some of the traditional forms that that might take. So oftentimes when we say we emphasize the form, it is that there's there's also this aspect of of the function and the form have a language within them that is immediately conveyed.
Speaker: um The immediacy of that. so So if I build a chair and I can recognize that as the chair, then immediately the construct in my head of chair yeah and the construct in the head of the artist of chair is like, we know what the function is. We we know what this is supposed to do. But then we get into these varying levels of ah abstraction where if I decide to make a artistic choice on that chair yeah that has a political component to it. Sure, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. Like like the the way that that we could even say, when we look at some things in terms of, I'm going to build a table that is is at a very specific height and the chairs are all going to be at that height. Sure.
Speaker: And then I'm going to say something along the lines of, you know, a table for disabled, right? Like like my choice of the title itself yeah immediately starts to convey that if I built that table or that we believe that society has built that table in a way that makes it inaccessible yeah to the very audience that we, there's something there yeah that is conveying a message that in the abstraction of that message, yeah we've We've now packaged it in a way that it's doing much more lifting than the very direct lifting of very functional, very utility focused with the the conforming to the form itself. And I think this is where we start getting into yeah the, there is some utility to conveying to the the the paradigm of what a chair is supposed to be. We should talk about it.
Speaker: And that that we start, that's where we start to play is we we start to to use this framework of form and function in a way that we emphasize things differently yeah to to be a more evocative.
Speaker: So I love this. Thank you. I think you hit on something really important, which was um the viewer's recognition for what the piece is. And that bores me into tears, right? So the example you gave earlier about finding these hand-painted things, not mass-produced paintings. And these are ubiquitous. Everybody kind of has seen these things and they're not great.
Speaker: In every bank lobby, you're going to find something akin to this, right? So great. It is what it is. But creating the contrast inside of that thing starts to open up where I get excited about the work is that I think just creating some visual energy, some excitement in that space to me is the thing that i I've locked into early on about what the object can do. But...
Speaker: In addition to that, and you said it yourself about the title, the title to me is the most playful part of the whole thing because that creates the framework for people to see the piece. And so if it is something like a table, everybody can recognize what that is. That's great. But if you give it a funny title, then people are thinking, And I would be bored to tears about making work that people get right away. i want them to really start to do some unpacking. And if it's a form that is somewhat familiar, there's nothing wrong with that. And I could dress it up with pretty materials and polished finishes and however one would approach that. But having a title to the piece can really throw a wrench in the viewer's perspective of what's happening. And to me, that's fantastic. And it's a nice little play of what can happen between the maker and the viewer.
Speaker: and So yeah, those two things are huge. The form and function in the realm of art. I like that framework to potentially even blast through the walls of what we're talking about is art. We're talking about for us on a day-to-day basis forms that we expect Even in terms, of we we have words for these, like it's the etiquette. It is the, it is the construction and structure and stability of what holds things together. And what I hear you saying is that, that when we, there is something to be said about, about saying the title of this is, is table.
Speaker: Sure. But the minute that you, you choose to be a little bit provocative with changing that, yeah. and and i And I find this even with things like sarcasm um or dry humor. I think yeah you and I both are appealed by dry humor. that's What is the nature of the dry humor is almost this this aspect of deciding that if my communication style is to pepper in yeah dry humor is is that there's actually...
Speaker: It's dry because you're not giving these broad signals. Humor is happening here. And what you end up identifying is those audience members that pick up on the dryness itself. And it resonates with them. Yeah.
Speaker: You find your people really quickly. That's right. It's similar things of of playing with the form in very subtle ways with the function we know is driving some connection, some humor.
Speaker: And for some, they can't even perceive that. there are There are individuals that cannot perceive that. And that some of when we talk about our form of what must come out is marrying up how direct, how denotative we're going to be in prescribing this is what you need to be thinking. yeah And that even within, like within the table and labeling it table that, that we're basically saying like, but whatever your first reaction to this is, is going to be, it's going to marry the intention. And what we start feeling is when it comes to certain types of environments, like commercial environments, yeah where people say, i need a table. I'm going to go to the artist or manufacturer or craftsman or producer, whatever that label may be.
Speaker: And I need someone who understands that their job, number one, is to provide a table. And then I'm going to transact with them. sure The more I start moving towards, I need a table that expresses some aspect of myself yeah That is a part of my identity, my personality. We start getting into this variety, this differentiation, and things start feeling like this is more than just a table. This has more nuance attached to it. right And the reason why I go to the the etiquette is...
Speaker: even within the field of of commerce is is that going in and saying, you know somebody holds the door open for me, that that you know my expected response to that is thank you.
Speaker: Sure. that There's ah there's a transaction there that's supposed to happen. If that doesn't happen, what do we jump to we start storytelling of what a jerk what didn't even have the wherewithal and and we get caught up in in the form of what this person is doing if i don't recognize it Then then the function of acknowledgement, of cohesiveness, of of even acknowledging that we're both humans crossing paths at this point, yeah if that's not delivered by the expected form of etiquette, sure we start crafting wild narratives around this. happens instantly.
Speaker: These are the things that I feel like, yeah, there is there is the breaking of the rules, but you have in order to break the rules, you have to have the rules in the first place. yeah and And there's such an enormous dance that's occurring all the time in confronting the nature of the choices that we are making.
Speaker: At any given moment that, that is this, I mean, for me going back to the, there's the utility and there's the importance of satisfying some of these things that, yeah that invites me into supporting and upholding the social norms. And, but there is a moment where sometimes the norms are there. Hmm.
Speaker: So that in the constriction of those, in the in the closing in and where they start to feel oppressive, that that I just have to burst through them. and And part of that for me is recognizing my own complicity in creating that that suffocation, that oppression on myself of saying that, yeah, I'm choosing right now the security and stability of the paycheck. sure So I have to listen to the audience. I have to listen to those people. i have to i they're They're giving me some sense of relief from the anxieties and the pressures of putting food on the table, just these very pragmatic aspects. Yeah. Yeah, you bet. At the same time, there's something about me that must come out regardless of of the outcome.
Speaker: That's amazing. and And that's that tension yeah between getting the relief from some aspects of myself and feeling that at the same time, not allowing the relief to undermine the very voice inside that is constantly evolving. That is is saying that the form must evolve. be broken yeah that i cannot reduce myself the function of why i exist the time that i have here i cannot subjugate that to the rigidness of the form following the fact that i'm i need to look the part i need to wear the mask i need to that there's something about me that is bigger than that there's something inside i know that i'm constantly trying to get to a closer approximation of what it is.
Speaker: At the same time that there are some things that along that journey, I i would like for to at least break even in terms of materials. I would like to maybe get a margin sure that allows me to feed my family. And yet there's also something else inside of me that even if it's not able to yield those things, yeah I want to get closer to the alignment of taking the ultimate risk of saying, I'm putting this out there and I know I know it's my voice yeah and I'm not going to change it at all. That's some serious confidence based on what the reaction is. That's huge.
Speaker: That's so huge. Hard place to get to. It really is. For you, what what's what what has that been? Particularly with what you're talking about is you've you've anchored towards the form side, but- sure I've seen your work. i've I've worked with you. I've been coached by you yeah yeah through elements of design and and how we get that. I've watched you talk to other students that are are fulfilling the brief, but pushing them yeah to to get into that risky space. Yeah, well, okay. So you're going to pull back the curtain of my educator role here a little bit. So I think part of this is um a recognition of the fact that, as you said a second ago, the safety of copying and what that presents. Because I think that there's real value to that. I think nobody comes out of the gates with an identity and a voice for their work. And so finding that is, is a journey and you have to navigate through this. And in addition to learning the craft and honing skills that are specific to get you to a place that excite you, there is also this thing about, well, I just, I'm not good at design. I can't design.
Speaker: i can, do this thing all day long and I'm very, very good at it or I'm getting better at it or whatever. But the design part is this elusive animal that there's, there's been writing about this. There's a lot of people, myself included, kind of fool themselves into thinking that i have experience of this. I can convey my experience with you and hopefully that will lead you in this journey, but you have to figure it out on your own. There's no other way of doing it. Right. And so the safe place is, oh, I'm really drawn to this person. I'm going to live in their shoes for a little while and then figure this out. And then that hopefully gets boring at some point.
Speaker: Some people make careers out of that. And that's, that's a space. That's great. If it lights you up and that's fulfilling, then great. Then they pull on the shoes of another maker and then they start to develop those things. You have to do that at enough times. I feel, to develop your own sense of what design and the work means to you. And so there's this interesting dance that happens about allowing that to happen, but also encouraging what, what about you is in the, what is it, what is happening in that almost trying on the shoes of somebody else? What, what is important about that, that we're trying to figure out within that imitation dance?
Speaker: Yeah, i love I love that phrase. um If we were to join a or start a band, that may have to be our band name. Imitation dance. Yes. That's very great. We've kind of touched on it already in a lot of ways. I think that the affirmation that this person has been recognized as for whatever reason, um if that's a larger on a larger scale, then there is safety in that.
Speaker: But from the individual, it doesn't matter how many people like the work. If you don't like the work, you're not going to imitate that person. So there's something that connects that you realize, oh man, they've got to figure it out. And I'm really drawn to the style or this maker or this movement.
Speaker: And this is true of every art form, I think, right? So I think there is acknowledgement about there's something kind of fantastic happening there. And I want to be a part of that. And my hope is as an educator, you'll get through that. You'll do everything. You'll explore everything with that. And then you'll evolve into your own identity or finding a way that will allow you to pull some of those pieces, but in a way that's now new and novel. Yeah. There's something about it for me. We've talked about this in previous seasons, the the legacy component um of of the standing on shoulders. Yeah, right. It also comes with this is that sometimes we we define this idea of originality that that almost is this mythical view that that in order for me to find my voice,
Speaker: That means coming up with something that is that that is almost creating the the molecular building blocks of of what must, and unless I own that thing. A new element of kind. That's right. and and and And so the interesting thing about that model, however, is that for most of us, what we end up using to define the the these new components They're only new yeah because there's something to compare to.
Speaker: And so this, you know, when we start talking about experimental music, like, look, there have been people that have banged on pots and pans before and and the cacophony and the, that comes from that. Right. us believing that we're going to then turn on a digital audio recording utility and collect that and this equals new is based on the fact that right now in the mainstream, it this is not what's accepted. this is not And so even within that realm of bumping up against something that already is, we get to inherit
Speaker: the legacy of what has been working for a while and maybe it has become tired and maybe it's something that that the presence of that tradition, that ritual, the all of those pieces that feel so codified itself starts to feel suffocating. Yeah.
Speaker: And so anything that that we reach for that maybe is you know two or three paradigms before that yeah feels new, feels, but we we need to remember that individual expression also has this balancing aspect of contrasting to the collective expression and that sometimes we need to bring forth things that were that we forgot um and bring them forward into the present time. Sometimes we need to go out and through some alchemy, grabbing various elements from other things and throwing them together and seeing that something new emerges from that. right There is this reminder of the compulsion within to express something that is inside me. Yeah.
Speaker: Also, that very compulsion is what is shared and is the same with many others. But that individual expression is relying on on some of that inherited capabilities or tools, techniques, craft. Even if we're deciding to refuse to do any of those things, their very presence is what's giving voice and meaning to why we're bringing forth what must come forth now. Right.
Speaker: It's this dance that that it is important for us to remember that there is no perfect, that the minute that we strive for perfect, even that the the minute that I strive for perfect within myself, going back to what we were even talking about, is is that there's something now I've created within myself that i am rebelling against.
Speaker: And it was by within myself building that up and building that persona, building that identity, saying and holding onto it so tightly like this is who I am. This is how I define myself that now creates this new thing for destroying and pulling apart and unbundling and unpacking that yields this new form of expression. It is the, it is, it that for me starts to get at that constant compulsion to allow structure and stability to rise and then use that to fall and to deconstruct and for for the new to almost resurrect from that itself. And and I don't ever see that kind of, there's ah there's a part of me that just says, i don't see where that form of expression starts to go away.
Speaker: um and And I'm very sensitive to, alluded to it with with good pain as well, is being very sensitive to this thing becoming a monolith.
Speaker: And that that the very aspect of my humanity, and I think for a lot of people that I've talked to, is askewing the idea that we are something that we are a monolith, that we are this one singular thing. um And embracing the fact that the minute we start to feel that in any direction, something dies.
Speaker: Is it an abandonment of exploration or self-discovery? Is that the death you're describing or what what do you think is given? What is the cost of becoming, I'm going to paraphrase a bit. You said monolith, you said this more global recognition from a society, but it seems like that's more of a sedentary comfort dynamic that is created.
Speaker: what is happening within me when when I must bring this thing out is there is a period of time and the death that occurs. There's a period of time where I'm surrendering to the process of doing my best to take this thing that I feel that I embody within me. Mm-hmm. and to produce it and create it outside of me. And then to bump up against for this period of time, did I honor the process? Did I honor what was inside of me with how I approached it, with what the end result is? The realization of that. thing That's right. and Or or did i um did I dishonor it? And there's an aspect that says, if I discover that I produced a a chair that that has a piece of who I am, yeah and and then I have produced this and the very first one has fulfilled its role, this holds my full expression. yeah
Speaker: and then And then also someone else says, oh, I want that chair. ah Somebody else, I want that. I want, now I'm being beckoned into, well, I could produce this one thing, but it is no longer my expression.
Speaker: What it holds as a function is feeding my family, which I think we see this oftentimes with artists who sell the original painting and then they sell prints of that. yeahp it's the It's the commercialization of the idea into something. now Now it's solving something else. Yeah. And I think we could, like you said earlier, we could build an entire business around just reproducing that same thing. You bet. Many people do. And they do. yeah They do.
Speaker: But we we must remember that this thing and this mechanism is now serving a purpose that is different than the thing that is now the new thing that is emerging within me that must come out as well. Exactly right. And an anti-chair or whatever that might be. Sure.
Speaker: and And I think that's the part that that what what I increasingly find with us as individuals is is that we forget that once we have produced something and it has served its purpose and we've put it out into the world, what's next? What is the next thing that we are to be surrendering to that's calling deep from within? That we continue to listen to that.
Speaker: And I think that that never, in my experience with people, it never goes away. The loudness of what has been produced in the past and the commercialization and and finding a way to put from, sometimes that becomes so loud that we forget that the compulsion never went away for whatever is next, whatever now must come forward. becomes very easy to quiet that beast. Yeah. If the needs are met, right? So if the money's coming in and mortgage is being paid and food on the table, et cetera, you can quiet that need in a hurry. What a lot of makers do, a lot of artists who are names that we would all know, ah they have to hire assistants.
Speaker: The assistants are the ones that do the output of that known entity. And then they have freedom now to start working on their thing that drives them again. yeah And that's great. It's a different process. You've reached a different level of professionalism, but that's the way that people can preserve that for themselves, if that's a value. Yeah, we have certain constructs within the way we talk about these moments in time that I think point us back to that continued wrestling with what it means to have that compulsion that that I will just say without, it never goes away. Yeah, that's exactly right. It never goes away. That compulsion to, and and some of the language that we use where we're trying to distinguish what How is our relationship to that compulsion changing?
Speaker: One of the biggest ones is selling out. this We can't talk about a creative life without this. Yeah. This is fundamental and front and center yeah to what every artist is challenged with. Even before they have to worry about becoming a professional artist is that dynamic of selling out and where's the line going to be for you. It is so huge. Yeah, we are going to have an episode on that.
Speaker: We have to. I think we're going to have that. I think that those conversations are going to come up naturally. They're already coming up with artists that that found that compulsion, went and did it, found that voice, went through what they felt like ah was a desert of being divorced from that for a period of time, and then rediscovering that compulsion never left them. All of those...
Speaker: and And that is all ah sticking within still the frame of this episode. yeah I think it is that that that aspect of of can we acknowledge the compulsion is there. Yeah.
Speaker: It is, i think you laid it out really beautifully there of there's things that will quiet it, tamp it down. Oh my gosh. Take the edges off it. It won't be as loud. And those are reaching for and using other things that are within ourselves. Sure. That can sometimes feel in direct conflict that if we allow those things to take over the, the need for safety, security, stability, and we all understand those. Sure. Of course. And we understand that if, if we were confronted with the offers for providing some of that, we're going to say the things that say like, this is, well, I had to take this because this will allow me to do all these other things that. are Exactly. then we don't do it. And then we, and the, the, the thing swallows us up. Yeah.
Speaker: The compulsion never goes away. i want to raise your call with that and also recognize my art historian friends that are possibly listening, but I've known in the past. They've had this conversation, we hope. ah They've been having this conversation for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years about the recognition of about cave dwellings and the fact that there is painting on caves.
Speaker: right? Doesn't serve a purpose for a function for a, um, a society that is in survival mode all the time. Right. Uh, but there is a dynamic about, I want to do something that does not directly impact my personal safety, food in the belly, a hunting gathering, like all of those things. And, why is it there? And non-creative people ask this question over and over again, cause they can't, it doesn't compute. They can't make sense of it. Yeah.
Speaker: Creative people are like, oh yeah, of course there's art in caves where the lighting was poor. Possibly there's a threat outside, so you're inside and this is an escape of some kind. I don't know. ah But it's just like, yeah, that had to be made. It had to be documented and there was no stopping the artist that did that. yeah It was just part of it. So this is the evidence to give the historical context. It has never gone away. Mankind has not evolved to the point that, yeah, I don't need to be creative anymore.
Speaker: Yeah. That doesn't, it doesn't work that way. Yeah. Um, one of the delusions of grandeur names on the list, um, I'm gonna, her name, her first name is Ella. Okay. Um, I'm not gonna even begin to try to pronounce her last name. Oh, okay. Good. Uh, Persian by ancestry. She was raised in Islam. Um,
Speaker: through her path in school she started asking bigger questions that could not be satisfied and fell in love with just the exploration of human condition as well and then ended up being a part and she's a presenter for a series on pbs nova series called human oh um and her first episode she talks about just the nature in the human record. This need to, this compulsion to express, even to the level of of recognizing that when we find early jewelry,
Speaker: That in of itself, how we adorn ourselves, how the fact that we we we choose and prize certain colors sure that express aspects of ourselves. yeah And and and we we have this compulsion. Yeah.
Speaker: And, and it's, it's in, like you just said, is some artistic individuals may not understand the form that it it it takes. And we, we, we put these off and yet we all find ways of expressing, even in, even those that decide,
Speaker: i'll I'll anchor to some of the things, whether it's it's some of the um small tribes that we have that we even will sometimes say like, whether it's the Amish, whether it's Quakers and like yeah these different groups, they make a conscious decision.
Speaker: to minimize the expression that they say that we're going to be a little bit more on the unexpressive. That in of itself is a decision to convey something about yourself in the choices that we make. And that's the that's the part here is is that it's easy for us to to segregate out this idea that there's a group of people, artists, that do these things that, well, that's art. That's the... All do it. Yeah, this is this is the reality. This is the thing that it's hard for people that have not gone through self-discovery or any type of experience that was creative is that, yeah, we're all suffering from the same master, the same thing that we've got to address. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's easy to rattle off a million examples of this, but people that enjoy going fishing, right? Fly fishing, especially, especially if you tie your own flies, yes you're hooked in, you're locked in, this is it. And, um, yeah, but everybody experiences this in ways. And, uh, I think it's really disheartening for people that minimize it.
Speaker: Yes. It's like, oh no, not for me. I'm not an artist. That's right. I'm not artsy fartsy. Yes. This is my least expression on the planet. Yes. And so yeah yeah, you got to own it. Yeah. Anything else for you?
Speaker: I'm super excited about the rest of the season. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks man. Yeah. Same. All Until next time. Until next time. Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation for bringing your own story, your own questions and your own hard one wisdom to what we're building together.
Speaker: If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations. And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com.
Speaker: Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands. And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame.
Speaker: Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.
