Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome GoodPing. If you grew up in a monoculture, it's hard to imagine a different life structure if you haven't seen it. And so the more I've seen, the more i realize that all of this is for us to make ourselves. The more I've seen, the more I've been able to imagine different possibilities. We're committed to creating the life that we want instead of falling into a script because we know the scripts are all man-made and arbitrary. We get to choose because we have that perspective of having left certain monocultures.
Speaker: Today, we're having a conversation with the host of another podcast that was a part of our 2026 Amplify Fellowship. Her name is Jess Lin. And if you love how we explore storytelling and making sense of our lives here on Good Pain, you should check it out.
Speaker: It's an award-winning podcast about global identity and intergenerational stories hosted by Taiwanese American community builder Jess Lin. who we're going to cover her entire story today in our episode. The name is Culture Plus Full, like Beautiful.
Speaker: And what makes Culture Full a special show is that instead of focusing on a single group, It uniquely bridges cultures, inviting us into an intimate and empathetic space where we build a global village. Season four launched on September 15th with incredible news stories where everyday people make meaning from their lives. Like an Indo-Guyanese Canadian exploring her family's migration, a black writer sharing how basketball was a sanctuary in Philly, and a Japanese-American Korean adoptee navigating his identity. Plus, there's an evergreen backing of three full seasons ready for you to binge right now.
Speaker: The link to check out Cultureful is in our show notes. But at this point, we're going to talk directly with Jess. We invite you to stick around for that conversation, hear her story, and then head on over to her show and check out her episodes.
Speaker: I have very unconventional Asian parents. So it's interesting because, you know, on my show, sometimes I have Asian guests on and then they'll try to relate to me like, oh, you know, because you're Asian. I'm like, well, actually, my mom and her mom are extremely progressive and just kind of like out of the box thinkers. i have an older brother. He was born with a chronic condition. It's a rare immune condition. And I think because like my mom had already kind of been raised progressively by her mother,
Speaker: So my mom, when she was raising us, her perspective on everything kind of went even more unconventional because she she had my brother and she kind of saw life with a different perspective. You know, she was like, i don't care about your grades. I don't care where you go to college. I don't care what you, you know, become when grow up. I only care that you make the most of this life in the sense of find a way to be happy, do what you want, because she didn't get to chase her dreams. She ended up having to be a caretaker. Yeah. And so she was very much like, you know, find what you want to do in life and go do it. And throughout like middle school, high school, college, like every time I wanted to be like, okay, can someone give me some guidance here? Can someone tell me which classes to choose? Because I had a lot of decision anxiety. i had a lot of like anxiety around like choosing classes or whatever.
Speaker: And she was just like, well, I can't decide for you. It's your choice. So I think like, I have like vivid memories of like anxiety breakdowns, like anxious breakdowns, like during high school where I would like crawl under like a table and just have a panic attack of like, I don't know how to choose which classes take this semester because I don't know what's like the most strategic. And my mom is not going to tell me what to do. And my dad definitely isn't going to me what to do. So I had to figure it out. So I think that, I think that was the seed that was planted really early of like, you got to make your own choices. It's your life.
Speaker: If I make your choices for you, you're going to maybe resent me for it later. So I'm not going to do that. It's on you. i think like most of my like early childhood, I was very nonconformist. And so like, even in middle school, i remember like people were reading um Harry Potter and I couldn't read Harry Potter because everyone was reading Harry Potter. Even though that's like, now I know that's like the stupidest reason not to do something because a lot of times things are popular because they are amazing.
Speaker: There's a reason that they have blown up. But anyway, so so during the time of like choosing where to go to college, I had good grades, all this stuff, good resume, whatever, school resume. But I was like, I don't want to go to any of the Ivies.
Speaker: I didn't apply to a single Ivy, even though that's where a lot of my peers were going. um I also was like, well, I don't want to go to Berkeley. I don't want to go to UCLA. That's too close. That's where another half of my class are going. So I'm going to go Where is the most unpredictable place for this SoCal girl to go? I'm going to go the Midwest. So I'm the first student, I think, from my under from my high school to go to WashU in St. Louis.
Speaker: And people will be like, in Washington state? and like, no, in Missouri. And they're like, excuse me? and I'm like, yes, I'm i'm going the Midwest by choice. And I loved it. hiding under the desk because you need to make a choice and you're trying to make the right choice.
Speaker: And at the same time, this non-conformity of whatever choice everybody else is making, I'm going to go against those. That's an interesting dance here, is that this one time you are terrified and anxious about how do I make this choice? At the same time, you've got this rebel spirit that's coming out. What's the dance between those two for you?
Speaker: I intrinsically felt like there was a right or wrong that I was trying to figure out what was right or wrong. But then to me, right was never what everyone else was doing. And that's also interesting because i always thought, oh, I was never rebellious against my parents because there's nothing to rebel against because they had they didn't give me any strict anything, whatever. And like, I think this comes out more like later on in my life where I, i like, so I think also it's, it has to do with having a brother with like a very different experience of life and, you know, kind of going through day to day. Like my idea of success was never, i want to go make X amount of money and some X,
Speaker: really prestigious place, like that would never impress me. Even as like i think like when I was in middle school, i kind of kept thinking like, oh, I'm going to be Superman, not Supergirl, because that's never, you know, the the thing that gets the main headline. I'm going to be Superman someday, somehow. and um And I'm going to like save the world. I had some like kind of, I had some kind of a social justice bend to me early on. um And also a very critical lens of like everything that I saw living in the suburbs of LA. Like, I don't know. I was just like this like annoyed teenage girl, just like going around and be like, and then whisper, like one one of my best friends, I would just like whisper her in her ear. Like every time we drive anywhere, i'd be like, oh my gosh, like this is just, what are we doing here? Nobody cares about anything else. There's all this apathy. And I think that's kind of just my teenage brain thinking when I think, you know, there's a lot of very engaged, you know, active folks in the suburbs.
Speaker: But I think it was kind of like a lot of what I had seen, i didn't want to emulate. Yeah, a lot of what i had been surrounded with, like I didn't want this or that or whatever. And I knew I had to go figure out something else. What was that something else? Where do you start to recognize that I'm making choices of about my classes, about where I'm going to go, where I'm going to move? Because there's something pulling me that I want to experience, that I want to express about myself.
Speaker: This is interesting because I think i I've been having to practice making my own choices for a long time. And side note, like as you as you were kind of framing the question, I think i realized back back then, i think what I thought was the right choice was, well, I also grew up in um a heavily Asian suburb. with a lot of Taiwanese, Chinese, Korean um immigrants and children of immigrants. While I was getting, you know, you got to figure it out, you know, ah this is your life. You got to figure out like all of my friends and all my classmates, like their parents were like, here, here's the roadmap, do this. So I was like, well, but there, so there must be a right way that everyone else is getting told what is this, you know?
Speaker: What the heck? um I also want the cheat sheet. um And not getting that, I think, was... and And having my parents speak. And my mom being like, well, that's not really what you need. And so I'm like, I can't even just like copy that from someone else, right? So I think that was kind of like part of the struggle and like why I thought there was the right um decision to be made around that time. And then i think like you know the i think I've like always... i think I've been struggling with certain choices, um for, and like big choices or even small choices um for like a lot of my life. But I think, I think the way I make choices, it has evolved over time because I've had to make so many and I've had so many, so much practice. When I was in high school, like trying to figure out like what to major in kind of you know factored into um where I wanted to go to school.
Speaker: ah Because I still wanted to go to a school that would offer that and offer that, um you know, to a high level. I took a lot of different art classes and I ended up doing an architecture camp that summer. And then realizing, oh, I really like design. I can like just lose myself in studio designing, you know, these like really abstract pieces of crazy furniture or whatever for many hours. And I really enjoyed that. And so it was trying to gather data from the sources that, you know, were available to me.
Speaker: I get to college, I'm an architecture student, and then the options that are available to me to explore kind of blow wide open. And then I'm realizing, oh my gosh, I don't actually care where we put the bathroom. Like once it gets down to like the nitty gritty of like, you know, creating a building like, oh, oops, all of my designs are like sculptural as shit.
Speaker: And I, you know, I actually did well in architecture. People are like, oh, you quit architecture because it was hard. No, I quit architecture because I lost interest in where things were going. i also had a professor. He took us on these field trips from St. Louis to East St. Louis, where it kind of was my social justice awakening.
Speaker: I had that seed before and it was like, you know, It's a very immature, very simplified, you know, kid view of things. And then kind of developing that through, you know, these like conversations and these eye-opening experiences of interacting with, you know, different folks from the projects and stuff like that. And kind of seeing community and having these these discussions about social issues at a higher level. And I was like, okay, yeah. Actually, then there was another crisis of, you know, oh my gosh, I need to switch majors. What do I switch to? yeah A lot of soul searching, a lot of talking to different people, a lot of, you know, trying to gather information again. But I think when it comes down to it, it was like, I think as i kind of move forward in life, um I got better at listening to my gut instead of just my head.
Speaker: think that's part of it for sure. And then I think I got better at asking the questions. For a long time, you know, after I switched majors from architecture to international studies um and kind of was gearing up for a career in international development. For a long time, I was really interested in, you know, like dedicating my life to missions and work that, you know, I believed in. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And then the more I worked in that, I realized, oh my gosh, the day-to-day experiences of that work really matter because I am also a human being. I need to like kind of, you know, be fed and not be burnt out and and kind of believe in how things are being implemented in addition to the big picture mission. And so it kind of became more fleshed out.
Speaker: The decision-making became like, well, how is this path going to be for me as a three-dimensional human-human? It's almost as if the social justice discovers you. It's been there the whole time. There's other people who have done this.
Speaker: You just didn't know how to expose yourself to those until it's there. Until it's staring you in the face and saying, hey, I exist, this thing called social justice. What was that feeling like when of discovery that this could be ah this could be a career? This could be something i actually lose myself in.
Speaker: it's kind of quintessential of the immigrant experience, even though my family, we don't have like the quintessential immigrant experience in certain ways, but you know, in certain ways we definitely do. um You know, like in my community that I grew up in, yeah, like careers where people work in nonprofits even at all. That's just not on, that's, I don't know anyone, like any auntie or uncle that I grew up with that worked in a nonprofit, you know, it's like, They'd be like, what do you mean you work in a nonprofit? In undergrad, I i started volunteering. I started, you know, finding a lot of different outlets that I didn't realize could be careers. um
Speaker: And it was it was like a holy shit moment of like and like a what the fuck moment. of like, so, okay, this all, these are all possibilities.
Speaker: um People do work in these fields and build careers and all this stuff. um And so like internally, it was like, okay, well, great. i It was like, okay, well, i'm I'm glad I'm not, you know, like that late in my career to have found this, but also it was like frustrating to not have found it earlier. um And it was also a relief. So it was a lot of mixed emotions. And then, you know, what was interesting was like, you know, back when I would go home to visit my parents for holidays or whatever, when I'd be back in, you know, this like Asian community where I grew up in, and which side note in and of itself is a privilege to grow up around so many other Asian Americans. um
Speaker: And I've been realizing this is a privilege as I've been doing interviews with folks that kind of grow up where they're the only one, they're the only two. um But yes, I grew up, you know, and in like a very like predominantly Asian community. And my dentist, my childhood dentist up to actually now sometimes when I go home, um he is my mother's ah classmate's older brother from Taiwan. You know, so so he's from Taiwan. And my whole life when I go see him, he like wants to have a 30 minute chat update about my life. When I was going to be an architect, he was very approving of that. When I switched away from that, oh my gosh, he was the person that I had to defend this decision to the most.
Speaker: And he was just like, no, no, no, go be a professional. And then you can volunteer on the side. And was like, no, no, no. I want to dedicate my life to these causes. And I don't want that to be the stuff I only do on the weekends or whatever, whatever.
Speaker: But then I never had to defend that to my mother or my my own family. But my mom, a lot of times, she would have to defend my decisions to her friends and relatives. Everyone would always be like, why are you letting Jessica do this? Why are you letting Jessica do that? And then her classic response would be like, well, well, the legs are grown on her own body. You know, she gets to decide where she wants to go. I think that was kind of the experience of kind of finding like, well, this, these are paths that I can walk. um And then like some of the friction that, you know, came with that. um I think the big friction actually was not having network and connections of mentors that I could tap into their experience and wisdom about how to walk those paths.
Speaker: So I feel like my my international development and public health, my global health career ended up being a very kind of winding path, um partially because of that. What was it like first walking that winding path or building your winding path without people who have tried it before being able to give you and point out like, don't step here, don't step there. You have to make your path without that degree of guidance.
Speaker: So after I had decided to leave architecture and I was like, oh, shit, what am I going to do now? But, you know, I had some candidates. knew wanted to work in something related to social justice. I didn't know what it was. And I had some candidates. Maybe I would major in poli sci. Maybe I'd major in anthropology. Maybe I'd major education. you know, international development, um, or, um, you know, economics, cause it's practical if you want to work in international development. So I kind of, you know, had these candidates and then I also started taking these cultural anthropology classes that really, really drew me in.
Speaker: I was very addicted to classes, you know, on different regions, on different cultures. And, um, And I was taking this African studies course and I vividly remember walking out of that course, like onto like, so Wash U is like really, it has really beautiful old buildings. and And, you know, there's like this, like red brick, like courtyard outside of this, this hall, this anthropology hall. And there was, you know, this um other student there, she was handing out flyers about a trip to Tanzania that summer.
Speaker: She was trying to organize a group to go and work on um some rural development projects. And I kid you not, the moment that the the paper touched my hands, I knew I had to go.
Speaker: And, um, and actually that was, um, that was the semester after I had already spent, uh, I had already spent a summer in ah Montana on the Northern Cheyenne reservation, which was another, there was like, I was, you know, in some architecture program after hours, like presentation and someone, you know, was showing some video ad about like, well, there's this nonprofit and they're looking for volunteers to go to Montana to build a sustainable straw, belt straw, sustainable straw bale houses for a summer. And it was another moment like that where like, I saw the video and I knew i had to go.
Speaker: um So, and then I had like a very formative experience there um that summer camping and just really loving kind of learning about local culture and the other volunteers and stuff like that. So then, okay. So then, you know, this Tanzania trip, this happened and it was just like, I i had such clear gut moments.
Speaker: um You know, in college that kind of led me to have this knowing of like, well, even though I'm scared shitless that I don't actually know how to, as you're talking about, like make the pragmatic piece of this work if I'm trying to walk this other path that I don't know.
Speaker: I don't know anyone who did global health. I didn't know anyone who did international development as a career. And and I was searching so hard for guidance. I would like talk to all these professors just to find out these professors are academics. You know, like they they' are excellent in their field, but they that this is not their field. So they could only tell me in theory um and they didn't have any networks in that field. So, so I'm really grateful that, ah you know, because i did lack guidance from um mentors that my gut was really kind of um picking up the slack. Yeah. And then pointing me to like, just go here. and then i And then I would listen to it because it was so strong that I didn't feel like I had to, you know, I couldn't go against it. It was like the current was pushing me. The internal current was pushing me so strongly in that direction. um
Speaker: And then the more and and that summer. So I spent three months in Tanzania in a very rural area outside of Arusha in 2007. This is like before a lot of um electrification and you know connection in East Africa with like cell phones and stuff like that. So we had like a satellite phone and six students who were through were this nonprofit, but the nonprofit kind of let us.
Speaker: They like introduced us to that community and the contacts. And then they left. We stayed for another three months. um And I realized I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't want to leave. Yeah.
Speaker: At the end of it, I didn't want to leave. um And so, and I had to leave because, you know, school and all this stuff. But I think the memory of not wanting to leave, that was another kind of piece of that knowing from that gut. That kind of, then, you know, I, after that trip, I remember being like fully committed. Okay.
Speaker: I'm going to try to figure out how to make this career in international development a thing. The immigrant experience that I heard you summarize was this nature of stepping into some degree of the unknown. Moving from a position of origin where you've been given what you've been given. You've inherited what you have inherited. You didn't have a choice necessarily on where you started. But now you're making the choice to step into some version of the unknown.
Speaker: and to figure it out much more as you go along. And you don't have the luxury of falling back on the same safety net. That's across an ocean. Now you have to figure it out and you have to build that and rebuild whatever that net is for yourself.
Speaker: You've routinely stepped into this unknown based on the gut. calling you and just knowing I, this is where I need to go. That sounds to me like continuing to enhance on that immigrant experience and finding a sense of place wherever it is that you go based on whether it resonates with your inherent mission, your gut for what you feel you need to bring to life in this world.
Speaker: So I think your your summation of the immigrant experience, I think, you know, you hit the nail on the head in some ways. Like what you're describing is a common immigrant experience. What I'm also realizing now, as I'm doing interviews with a lot of immigrants, is it so depends on if you're first generation, if you're second generation, if you are first generation, but you have a community of cousins and relatives that are already gone before you, You know, and so the immigrant experience, it's it's so varied. And so I feel like there's actually a lot of folks that come and they're not reinventing the wheel because they have, you know, aunties and uncles and cousins that, you know, have been there for decades and kind of tell them, hey, do this, do that, whatever.
Speaker: My family didn't have that, um you know. And so so I think I would push back to say, like, I think the immigrant experience is is not necessarily always reinventing the wheel or. But at the same time, it is common also to have the first generation kind of reinventing some kind of wheel for themselves. And then the second generation having to reinvent a different wheel for themselves because they're You know, there's different challenges. And then there's a lot of like interdirect intergenerational challenges. um
Speaker: i think for my parents and for me, I think, and and also like the, I think I would push back on the assumption that people usually want to come and that it's a choice.
Speaker: Um, cause often, you know, people come for different reasons. Sometimes it's not a choice or sometimes it's the choice they least want, you know? So, um, and you know, what's, what's interesting about my family is my, my parents, like both did not really want to come to the U S. Um, my, so my grandfather, um, my mom's father had a lot of political trauma from growing up in Taiwan,
Speaker: having been imprisoned during the Japanese occupation. And so he had a lot of political anxiety about at some point, China is going to take over Taiwan and we don't know what's going to happen. So we need um people, we need relatives in the U.S. or in Japan or in other countries that will help us seek asylum. um At which point, you know, if we become political refugees.
Speaker: So that, so my mother and my father, because he wanted to marry my mom, um actually, they were sent basically to the U.S. s by my grandfather. And he told them, go and learn English and make friends and assimilate and don't ever come back. Come back to visit, but don't ever come back. um Which, you know.
Speaker: was challenging for them, right? It was very challenging for them, especially because Taiwan saw a big economic boom around that time. And, you know, a lot of like my aunts and cousins and, you know, they like, you know, we're not necessarily living a more comfortable life here than they are over there in terms of, um you know, quality of life and a lot of other factors of community and all that stuff. So, okay. So anyway, so, so, so premise wise, I think like, you know, for my family, yes, it wasn't always a choice, but then they came because my mom and she's, you know, her dad helps her do something. things She'll do it. Right. No matter how hard it is.
Speaker: And for me, you know, it's, I think, I think there's, there's this aspect of like, you're reinventing something that doesn't have to reinvent it. You know, if you only were plugged into the networks, if you were, you know, how to see at the right tables and stuff like that.
Speaker: um And so sometimes, you know, it it would feel very frustrating to see peers kind of like kind of jump ahead um when, you know, I know academically i am competitive with them or, you know, in other ways I'm competitive with them, but then not knowing how to kind of jump through the stepping stones like the the most linear way. For you, you're getting to experience a lot of that these are the choices that I'm making because they resonate with me. And and so you're going to Tanzania, you're working in the space you want to, and then you start making choices that
Speaker: start restricting some of those and moving you more into, well, I will eventually get to moving to Atlanta where similar to what you talked about with your mom coming to, I didn't, just didn't want to go to Atlanta. She did like all of those pieces.
Speaker: Where do you start to experience the pull towards more of, I i have to choose some things that are in competition with that sense of individual freedom and expression that you want to be, that you want that you imagine your life to be. Where does that shift start to come in? So, okay. Fast forward. I'm in my thirties. I'm, um, living in Bangkok, working a job. I, you know, in some ways really enjoy, in some ways I find very flawed as, um, is true for a lot of, you know, Yeah. A lot of work in international development. I had recently gotten out of an engagement. So, so I, in between, i had also served in the Peace Corps in Zambia with my, um my fiance at the time. and And he's a New Yorker. He's from Long Island. I know everyone's going to hate me for trying to make that long. long Island accent. That was very bad. But, um, so, you know, from a lovely family and I just, I had seen this whole life ahead with him. um and then gradually realized, you know, that we were not a good fit, um, to nobody's fault.
Speaker: He's a great human. I still respect him a lot. We finally started to realize we are not a good fit for each other. And then this kind of whole, um, this whole picture of a life I had with him, especially in New York, This life I saw for myself started to unravel. um And looking at my biological clock, we broke up, I think around on Valentine's Day, but right before I turned 30. And I had this negative like spiral thinking of like, oh my gosh, I'm 30. I'm going to be jobless soon because the program was ending. i'm going to be apartmentless. I don't know why that was a big deal, but I just really loved his apartment.
Speaker: I'm going to be single. And I had planned for myself because I'm a planner. I had planned for myself that I was supposed to get married at 27 and by 31, be pregnant or have a kid or something. And i was like, oh no, I don't think I'm going to make that timeline for having a kid.
Speaker: um Now I have to start over. This sucks. um And, and so I think from then on, I was like, so hyper-focused on, okay, i wasn't hyper-focused. I was, from then on, I was very focused on, I got to get this baby making train on the road, the show on the road. I got to find a new person that I think I can at least have a kid with. um If I want to have a biological kid, which, you know, at that point I was like, yes, I think I do. i want to try for it. So then, you know, I finished the Peace Corps in Zambia. I ended up working in Zambia for another job. Then after that, I, um
Speaker: was in Morocco studying French, got headhunted to go work in Bangkok. Then live in Thailand for a year, working for that job and like flying all around the world for this organization, realizing there is no way i was dating. i was on the dating apps, dating my butt off. I was like, there is no way for me to find someone that I can have a kid with living this lifestyle where I was literally traveling. I was literally traveling 50% of the time internationally. It's like that there is no way. um So then that was it was it was challenging to decide to move back to the US s around that time because I didn't want to give up my, you know, chasing work in life abroad that I loved.
Speaker: Um, but at the same time, i was like, okay, maybe I can go back to the U S have a job somewhere where live for a few years, find a person to have a kid with, and then make him promise me he will go abroad with me to live again, because I don't think I can live in the U S indefinitely. At that point, I just had like too much culture class. Every time I came back to the U S I had been abroad too much. And so it was kind of like, well,
Speaker: Let me put some of this life that I loved a little bit on hold. But at the same time, like it wasn't that hard because this like fear of like the biological clock ticking out of time was so visceral.
Speaker: but was like, okay, well, I'm going to prioritize this for a while. and um And then eventually I'll go back to that. Because by that point, I knew a lot of families who lived abroad and worked, you know, in different things. And so like that was like I'll make it work. I'll find someone who can work remotely. It'll be fine. But yeah, that was kind of, you know, the calculus at the time. you're starting to confront the nature of trade-offs. your Your biological clock at this point sounds like has the same gravity to it that your gut did in making some of the decisions before. Now your gut is saying, clock is ticking. This is the priority. But it comes with these trade-offs. And you start crafting some of the conditions of those trade-offs, which says, okay, we're going to focus on this here, but then later we'll get back to redeeming
Speaker: the trade-offs. we're just We're just putting these on hold for a little bit. And I think like now that I'm like kind of reflecting and remembering more about that time, I think there was also a part of me that, well, there was a part of me that was resentful about the trade-offs. And I was like very annoyed that like men didn't have to deal with some of this stuff or didn't have as tight of a timeline um for, you know, finding a partner to have a biological kid with. but um But I think there was also a part of me that was not done with living abroad, but I had already done a lot by that point.
Speaker: Um, and i also, you know, to some degree craved a little bit more rootedness, especially that last job was so much flying around. I was like, I craved a little bit of rootedness, even though, you know, I still saw myself kind of spending at least another couple years in Southeast Asia at some point in my life, or South Asia. Um, but then, right. Something else that I thought about earlier in the conversation about the immigrant experience, There was something, there was a layer of, I knew i never wanted to live abroad indefinitely. I didn't want to be an expat indefinitely or an immigrant somewhere else. Partially because i had seen my parents struggle in that. And partially because I didn't want to do, I didn't want to undo all their hard work. I was like, it is very challenging to become, you know, an American. um And with all its flaws, it comes a lot of privileges.
Speaker: And I didn't want to undo that. Not that I think it would be like, not that I think it wouldn't be as good to be a citizen somewhere else. But I think like, to me, it kind of feels ah a little bit like part of my parents' legacy. What is it like to start saying goodbye to some of these pieces that you thought were going to continue to be in your orbit? And...
Speaker: What happens when life starts telling you you're going to say goodbye to some of these things? You don't have a choice on whether you continue to pursue them or not because of a chronic condition or unanticipated challenges with with pursuing having a child.
Speaker: How does that start to shape your experience of much of what you experienced was this broad, I'm going to pursue whatever my gut tells me. Now I'm pursuing what my gut tells me. And at times it feels like certain doors are just being slammed in your face.
Speaker: I don't think I actually ever thought that that was done at that point. It was just on hold because it was so deeply ingrained as my identity. Like I always thought of myself as a quote unquote field cat. Like i I really love, you know, spending time in different communities, um mostly under-resourced in different different countries and kind of really off a beaten path, having, you know, going into homestays and like interviewing folks and stuff like that, having a lot of community and FaceTime with folks.
Speaker: um I never thought of that as fully done. And I still don't. Partially because um I, you know, for my podcast, like it's kind of the, it's kind of where i would like to build it towards to be able to go and do interviews in different countries, you know, in remote areas, especially um where we don't usually hear folks firsthand stories.
Speaker: um that are not news related. So, so I think if I fully had to let that go, i think it would just cause too much grief. So I'm like, I'm not doing it. yeah ah And I still, I think I'm still very much, you know, that girl that's like gonna fight for what I want.
Speaker: And that's what I want. I'm still fighting for it. um And for, you know, the the piece of having to having to come to terms with, um you know, disability and other things, getting in the way of choosing what I most want to do. man.
Speaker: oh man that was ah That was a time. So basically, this was starting 2020. I'm in Sacramento. I'm dating my husband. We're about to get married. Actually, we get married, you know, during this time.
Speaker: um and And my body is just like dealing with more and more inflammation, more and more pain, pain all day, like inescapable levels of pain, it felt like. And...
Speaker: And then also on top of that, this layer of grief upon grief upon grief. um It was, it just felt like, you know, getting like emotionally winded while you're physically winded all the time. um And I, and then I don't know what happened to my brain around that time. I don't know what chronic pain did to rewire my brain, but then I basically could not stop like thinking and talking in terms of analogies. My husband is so tired of analogies.
Speaker: And so like the analogy at the time was, it was so tragic. I mean, there were a lot of tragic and analogies that came up with that time, but it was like, I had spent, you know, a decade building a Lego house or whatever. That was my favorite dream house. um And it had everything I wanted and it was flawed in some ways, but it was really the stuff of my dreams. And I had built that into my career. I loved my job back in Sacramento too. And um and then it was like someone came and like knocked over my Legos. And then they didn't let me play with any of my favorite pieces that I had used to make the Legos. I had to use all these other pieces i had never looked at that were there all along, but I never looked at them because I was uninterested. but I had to kind of look through them and play around with them and try to see if I can create something that I feel decently about.
Speaker: And that was so hard because i was I was grieving my dream house for a long, long time. And then as you're kind of recovering, and it was a very non-linear recovery, people kept asking, what are you going do What are going to next? And I was so angry. I was like, well, I don't know yet because I need to see how much I can recover because how much I can recover determines my options and determines which Legos I get to play with. And so, you know, I think, I think now I think I have somehow built something that I do enjoy. But for a long time, it was, it was that grief. So it was very challenging. I think the worst period of that time was when I was so physically messed up that my husband had to help me drink water. would have to bring the water bottle and the straw to my face and like, you know, like feed me stuff like spoon or fork, whatever, because my arms, my shoulders, my neck, you know, everything was just so flared up that like existing hurt and then moving hurt even more. Um, and, It was this like, yeah, I, I, I did have some, I did have a lot of depression around that time. And, um, during part of that, I remember thinking like, oh, I don't know if I want to keep going.
Speaker: And then catching myself in that thought, I still remember like, you know, where I was sitting in that living room in that apartment with a green carpet when I had that thought and was like, oh shit, just don't go there. That's dangerous. But uh-oh, you had that thought. Uh-oh, we really need to get in with a good therapist. Because at that point, I hadn't like, it was also COVID. I hadn't like gone in with a good therapist. and I was like, okay, got to prioritize getting with that good getting in with a good therapist. um But also, um I was luckily seeing a doctor at the time. I had like kind of seen a whole bunch of other doctors that like kind of didn't know what the heck was up with me. And then finally got referred to this one doctor that was exactly who I needed to see.
Speaker: um And he, i think on the second or third visit was like, read this book. And the book was titled The Way Out. And I really need to remember what the author's name is because I talk about this book a lot.
Speaker: is's about It's about chronic pain and rewiring your neuroplasticity. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, like when I was in that like really scary, like, I don't know if I want to keep going moment. Like the the thought that kept coming up in my head was I need a way out. I need a way out. You know, like I can can't i can't keep living like this. This is like so painful um all day. Like, I don't think I can tolerate much more. And so that title, that book was like, oh my gosh, I need to read this. And it really did that book. And then the program that I went to through that doctor really um was the beginning of the recovery. um Yeah. So that was the hardest time.
Speaker: The and other analogy that was like at the forefront of my mind at that point was i felt like I was thrown into the middle of the forest, lost, naked, no clothes, no gear, no tools, no idea where i was supposed to run to finish a marathon.
Speaker: I didn't know where the marathon ending was. I had to, I had to figure it out, but I meanwhile knew nothing. And so the first couple years of the disability and the pain was fumbling around and lost, you know, and struggling and alone.
Speaker: Meanwhile, my husband's like, they're like, there's like a voice. He's there he's like cheering me on, but I'm like, but you don't know where we're going either. You know, only I can run the race and I have to run the race. And then finally with that program, with that doctor, with that book, you know, it was kind of like, okay, well, I'm collecting some of the shoes I need. I'm collecting some of the clothes, the tools I need. And then it was still very windy, but like eventually I start kind of knowing which direction I hear the crowd, you know, cheering me on to like go in a certain direction. And, and it was, it was still really challenging, but eventually you're just kind of working towards a certain direction. And that's when it became a lot easier psychologically. Where we started you saying hiding under the desk anxious of where do I go? How do I make the decision? What do i do
Speaker: At that age the world being very wide and open. The possibilities almost being overwhelming of how do I make a choice? But the inverse of what I'm hearing now is is that even with your analogy is now it feels constraining. How do I make a choice?
Speaker: based on certain paths almost being cut off. and And now it's a different type of winding path where it feels, will I ever get out of this forest again? How does that experience of being kind of the difference between that expansive overwhelm versus the almost suffocating overwhelm, and now you're solving for, can i reclaim some of the expansion, some of the possibility, the imagination to reimagine the world? So I had an an architecture professor, the same one who kind of brought us on all these field trips and um was very influential to me, Bob Hansman.
Speaker: um Rest in peace. He had this one thing he would kind of repeat to us whenever we would feel frustrated by his assignments. um He would say the most, um he would say the more constraints I give you, the more creative you have to be. And I think that's been really true. um I think, you know, when you have the wide open um set of choices when you're younger, you you kind of have to look at a lot of things, but you don't have to be creative. um I think, you know, as I've dealt with disability, as I've dealt with, you know, different um different constraints with like wanting to move back and stuff like that. especially after disability, i think I actually had to be more creative because i had so many more constraints. And, um and I think the way I ended up coming to kind of, you know, build another house that I like, right, is like, I had to kind of re meet myself like I had, it was this um shedding of this, like, this main identity, which came with a lot of grief came with a lot of, um a lot of sadness, and a lot of attachment and clinging.
Speaker: um But, you know, I think it's like, um Okay. So I'm from, I'm from SoCal, right? This is going somewhere. So I'm i'm from SoCal and you know, when you drive two hours East, you get to Joshua tree, which is my favorite national park, Joshua tree. a lot of people visit if deserts, you know, are not their thing or whatever they'll think, oh, it's gray. Oh, it's kind of Sandy. There's not that much color here. Um, but you know, for me, when my eyes adjust to Joshua tree, to the, to the desert, to the, to the landscape there, like out of the grays, out of the, the, the sandy colors, I see a lot of purple. I see pinks, I see, you know, rich hues. And I feel like that's kind of what happened with me seeing myself after the disability, you kind of remove like the big
Speaker: elephant or the big thing in the room, the big shiny thing. And then you kind of start to see what else is there. And, um and I think I started to see myself more three dimensionally, which is also related to like kind of what um my podcast project is. It's like, It's kind of when you see someone really close up, you see them in their messy, human, beautiful nuance. Right. And then so I'm realizing now I'm starting to see that for myself. um Who am I without my career that has always been? Because when you've lived in all these different places, whenever you meet anybody, they're like, whoa, what's Morocco like? whoa, what's, you know, living in Thailand, like whatever. but when you don't have that and you're, you know, a person and you're in a community and you strip all the shiny things away, you kind of see these other stuff. And so I think, you know, i really leaned on some friends that really knew me to kind of reflect back to me. Who is the dress that you see when I am not
Speaker: working. um I also was a part of this Buddhist meditation community and I joined the board in Sacramento. And and then i started hearing myself, you know, in conversations about different things, you know, advocating for anti-racism and pushing back and, um you know, speaking truth to power sometimes, even with like Buddhist teachers that were unent were were ignorant in their own ways. um And then having having, you know, new friends reflect back to me what they saw, who didn't Never knew that I lived here or there or wherever and didn't care. Right. Because I was, you know, who is like the just that they're seeing to them and how can I see her myself too? And then, you know, what, what can she contribute to the world that she still wants to do or what would feed her? um
Speaker: What would, what's whatever the analogy is, right? What would fill her cup? um So I think it's been a process of that, of like kind of learning to see myself beyond the shiny thing and then realizing, oh, there's all these other things that I have to offer that I am, that i that are kind of intrinsic to me and kind of learning more about myself along the way. And then being creative with what I'm seeing from there. You've had to reinvent the wheel multiple times based on what's been thrown at you.
Speaker: There's something about that also that is resonant now with all the people you're starting to talk to. They are constantly having to confront their own limitations. They have their own story. they're You're celebrating this unique experience of...
Speaker: engaging with a life where you have to make choices based on what it is that's confronting you. And that's going to show up differently for different people. But there's a joy that I hear with you in hearing those stories of highlighting those and bringing them to the forefront. That's some aspect of what you're doing with Cultureful. So in these conversations with good friends, and trying to reflect back to me what they see in me, ah part of it was, man, i have some good ass friends. um They humored me for many months, I think over a year of like brainstorming, what do I do next? You know, and all this stuff. And then my best friend actually, it got so far where she was like, Jess, maybe she you should be a park ranger. I'm like,
Speaker: Dude, I am like quite physically disabled. I don't think I could do that right now, but I was, you know, I'm the most outdoorsy person that she knew. So anyway, um and I think like how it came to be was um to other people that know me very well, my mom and my brother, and really my husband, they they kept pushing that I should consider podcasting. And I was like, how is that a thing? How does one make that a sustainable thing? And also, i was like, oh, it feels ew to kind of record yourself and listen to your own voice and stuff like that. Like I just, I had an ick about it um And, you know, at the same time, my husband, he was so, he's so smart. He was like, well, but you can interview folks. And, and he also is a huge consumer of podcasts. He's like, you can interview folks. You can kind of make it, you know, whatever topics you're interested in And then we started thinking because I, I had always known whatever I was doing next in order for me to be motivated to keep doing it and to enjoy it, it needs to have some social justice, social impact bend to it, or else I really just have a hard time continuing to give a fuck, right?
Speaker: um And so, you know, so I also knew that um i wanted to draw from, you know, some of my experiences working in international development, working in global health for so long. I didn't want to feel like all of those experiences and lessons learned, wisdom gained. um I didn't want to feel like no one can benefit from that anymore. And so how do I how do i marry some different things? um And one of the things that I think was very unique about the way that I approached my work in global health compared to like my my grad school friends or my Peace Corps friends or whatever is um I really enjoy like just hanging out with people.
Speaker: Like while we're while we're like, we're doing projects and we're, you know, doing, you know, this and that education the community or whatever, we're organizing, we're mobilizing. But like in between, like I'm that person that will just like hang out and like go to someone's house for dinner or have them over or or whatever. um So I really enjoy hanging out in deep time.
Speaker: And I also am the most fieldy all my friends in terms of like, yeah, I just, I really enjoy like being off the beaten path and and with folks. And so I guess like what, I think what that changed for me in my perspective um is I had a whole bunch of moments That were kind of like the moments where um I just knew I had to go to Montana. I just knew I had to go to Tanzania. These like very visceral gut moments of like aha moments or whatever, where um there was one that happened in Morocco. I was taking French lessons with folks that were local, Moroccan folks.
Speaker: And one of my classmates invited me to go to her house to sleep over. And I love that shit. So i was like, of course, I'm down. And so then we go to her house, you know, a couple hours to a different town. And I meet her family. And we have pillow talk, which is my favorite, you know, like thing to do at a homestay, whatever. So I pillow talk with her. And like one of the things I asked her was, you know, like, what is it like to be Muslim?
Speaker: in Morocco as a woman. um And she said she she loved it. There are challenges, of course. um You know, laws are not equal and all this stuff. Given all of that, there are some things she thinks are perks that she really enjoys personally. And some of the perks were like, she's a homebody. So it really fits her very well because she doesn't really want to do some of the things that mostly men do out and about. And and she doesn't feel oppressed the way Westerners may think that she may feel.
Speaker: And, you know, and I was like, oh, okay. And it really kind of, it was really good for me to hear. It really challenged my own biases. And I had like a few other moments like that, um that kind of really made me realize like, okay, well, you know, i one of the privileges of having been able to live and work in so many different places is I've gotten to make, you know, friends like that by hanging out in deep time, you know, and getting to see and hear their internal lives and experiences. And so Cultureful, really, know, when I was kind of conceiving of it, I was like, well, how can I bring this to the forefront where we can see each other up close, human to human? um And how can that help us shed all of our memories? misconceptions because we usually see ah people in the news and it's very flat. um And yeah, and so that's kind of how Culturaful came to be as, um you know, a way of archiving up close, intimate family stories um from folks with roots, you know, all around the world.
Speaker: Where we started was your mom saying, i don't know what choice you have. I don't know what. And yet now she's seeing something within you and she's now encouraging you. And that is also very different to where you started. That arc of I'm i'm the one who's needing to read the tea leaves and make choices and go to school and try on architecture and find out, nope, this doesn't fit. um You submit yourself to certain constraints and then you find something else. And this time there's a crowd of others who have watched you for a period of time and are seeing something maybe that you're not. And they start encouraging you. And what has that been like to to get that as a gift from those who are watching you? Different than that feeling of I'm on my own. I've got to figure it out. I've got, you
Speaker: I've only got myself to rely on here. what What has that communicated to you even more about what you want to be a part of? Oh, man, I love it. I love getting feedback and people reflecting, you know, back to me what they see in me.
Speaker: um Because, you know, we all have blind spots, right? um and And I think there's a lot that you you can't see in yourself so until someone points it out. um And I think, you know, a lot of times, like, wise guidance.
Speaker: is focusing and reflecting back to you um what traits you're exhibiting. So i think that has been very helpful to me. um I think that it's important. Like I think, you know, now if I'm like so some of my friends, they have like teenage daughters or whatever, and they're like, well, how much do I tell her what to do or how much do I let her make her own choice and stuff like that? And I think like, I think it's useful to reflect back to, to young people, you know, some things that you see in them, but I think it is also still very important for them to make their own choices um and to practice that because i think the gift that my mom has given me in challenging me to make my own choices always is i have never regretted anything.
Speaker: in my life. Right. Um, you know, sometimes I'm like, Oh, okay, well maybe that wasn't, you know, but, but like everything I did, like I have to stand it on my own two feet about and, um, and it, it has, my life has been one of my own making, um, with, you know, the most beautiful memories. I'm grateful for having had that challenge.
Speaker: We don't need to be so deterministic in only this path, that it's a balance between the two of those, is that providing the reflection of what you see rather than the projection of what you think somebody should do, at the same time leaving open that space for exploration.
Speaker: and And that's very important to you, it sounds like. Definitely. And I think I'm realizing it's not so much foot in two worlds. I think um I'm, I have a very firmly progressive view of a lot of things. um But I think I'm, I'm very literate in a lot of different worlds. So I kind of can jump in and out of a lot of different cultural contexts. um And so like, you know, with that pragmatism that um like the advice that my mom's friends give and, you know, the dentists and and none of it ever felt like, oh, that's something i'm going to listen to because that makes sense. It's always been like, oh, wow, they really have a different perspective from our perspective. How interesting. And and my mom's always like, aren't you glad that I don't like make you do these things? And like, yes, thank you. You know, it's like, um and, you know, even with my cousins, like I have a couple of cousins that I'm very close to in Taiwan who are like similar ages to me. And one is one year older, one is one year younger. And the one that's a year older, she has like this big, big sister persona. Yeah. And which I love it because i have a big little sister persona. And, you know, remember when I was like doing all this international work um and like, you know, loving my life, like living, living, you know, um living hard. And, and she just, one time, you know, when I was visiting her in Taiwan, she was just like, Jess, you're so selfish. I was like, What? She's like, you're just doing everything you want to do.
Speaker: and I'm like, yeah. you And it's just this like this. I just had so many that like the choices that i had um growing up were so much broader than the choices that my cousins had growing up. And they had a lot of choices, too. But but the parameters were very different. They love and respect me, but they also are very confused about all the choices that I have made and have been given the latitude to make. I've been reflecting on this move to Atlanta.
Speaker: This move, which, you know, kind of began with a lot of resentment, with a lot of grief for having to leave Sacramento, because I i had moved back to the U.S. wanting to kind of have some more roots and some stability for some time somewhere, found that in Sacramento, um and also...
Speaker: Sacramento became like my safety blanket because i ended up making a lot of, you know, beautiful friends there that saw me through disability during COVID, which it's a really special kind of person who can be your friend through that kind of thing. And...
Speaker: um Yeah, shout out to my friends in Sacramento. And so I had them there. And then I also had finally built up a care team um that understood what was going on with me and was helping me get better. And then to have gotten a lot better, but still not be confident in my own life.
Speaker: ability to manage the new disability and my new body, my new relationship to my body, and like my new identity of not being someone who worked in global health or public health or international development. Having to move at that time was like the most terrifying thing. And I was confused. I was like, I've never been terrified to move um as an adult, but I was terrified. um And, you know, we get to Atlanta and, you know, whole...
Speaker: Mix of, you know, complicated negative emotions swirling around. And then now we've been here for coming up on two years. And i was kind of reflecting about it last night and talking to my husband. I'm just like, I'm realizing this move was exactly what I needed, even though it was not what I wanted. It was exactly what I needed.
Speaker: because it was another, it forced another layer of creativity in that i had to I had to figure out how to reassemble a care team, how to take care of myself, use all of the lessons that I learned, all the tools I'd been given in the forest in Sacramento and apply those to kind of figure out how to take care of myself, how to keep my recovery moving forward. um Meanwhile, as an extrovert,
Speaker: working from home, building a podcast, trying to figure out how to make new friends and community in new place that I never wanted, you know, never, it never crossed my mind to live here. And, um and also realizing like, you know, almost two years later, like, wow, Atlanta has been so good to me in that I have made some beautiful friendships here. through a cheat code of like getting plugged in really early with this yoga studio that has like a lot of the same values, you know, as I do in like training there to become a yoga teacher.
Speaker: um and my cohort is just like a lot of, yeah, a lot of heart friends I've been able to make here. um And then also like having to be comfortable for the first time introducing myself as a podcaster. What? the heck? I had spent 15 years introducing myself a certain way that was taken very seriously.
Speaker: and then now it's like, oh, I'm a podcaster. And that can be taken so many different ways. But then learning to like, let that go and not be defined by it. um And, you know, let the the folks that gravitate towards me gravitate towards me, you know, for other reasons or for that. Some of them actually think that I'm a brilliant, you know, storyteller and love, love me for that too, which kind of blows my mind. Um, but it's like, it's been, i unfortunately have to hit you with another analogy. Um, it's been like getting, you know, a coloring book, page and you didn't want that picture, but you still get to choose how you color it and make it something that you love. And I'm realizing like, well, yeah, I've within the bigger picture of not getting to choose moving here. There's been so many choices I've been able to make and I've made them in a way to build a life that I do love here.
Speaker: And yeah, now whenever we have to leave, I'm going to have a hard time leaving. Two years ago, your perspective was, I don't want to be here. Now, two years later, it's going to be hard to leave. and And part of what you're continually reinventing is your perspective, or or at least it's continuing to expand based on the constraints that are either wide open at times or very, very confined.
Speaker: And that that that's a part of what you're bringing into this world is is the embracing of new perspectives and the grief and everything that goes along with saying goodbye to some old perspectives. In an interesting way, it's reminding me of something that I've learned um from a lot of my my time with different communities is, you know, if you kind of grow up in a monoculture, it can be hard not to follow the script of life, when to get married, when to go to school, whatever, whatever. And um and that can make you happy or maybe doesn't, right? Right. But it it it's hard to imagine a different life um structure or a different way to go about life if you haven't seen it. And so the more I've seen, the more I realize that, you know, all of this is for us to make ourselves. um And the more I've seen, the more I've been able to imagine different possibilities.
Speaker: for myself. um And so I think that's kind of what, you know, what you're talking about is touching on that for me, just, you know, my husband is from Sri Lanka, but he's, he's also like, he's also like a very unconventional Sri Lankan Tamil. And like, I'm, you know, Taiwanese American, I'm a very unconventional Taiwanese American. And, you know, the life that we're creating together, we're committed to creating the life that we want instead of falling into a script. um because we know the scripts are all man-made and arbitrary and we get to choose um because we have that perspective of having left certain monocultures that we come from. I feel very privileged to getting to see folks the way I've gotten to see folks and I would love for other people to get to see them the way I see them.
Speaker: I think as I'm working on the storytelling podcast and collecting stories, oh, I love what you said, bouquet, collecting a bouquet of stories. Yes. It's so much more colorful and beautiful than archive. Archive just sounds dusty and like kind of stiff, right? Is bouquet of stories is, um you know, even though I like, I grieve my career in global health in some ways because I studied it. I loved it. I, you know, I worked in it. um there There was also always this, like, if i I, knew if I get promoted, which eventually will happen, if you keep, you know, doing decently in any field, I was like really uninterested in being promoted, because then you get more and more removed from community work.
Speaker: And I was like, don't promote me, don't promote me, don't promote me, but pay me more. Yeah. And, um but I think, you know, even though I and lament having to leave that sometimes, I think if I'm being truly honest with myself, I also am seeing more and more as I do this storytelling project and storytelling work that there are ways in which I'm gifted to, you know, to be trusted and to have the honor of being trusted with these stories. That is not something that a lot of folks can do. Right.
Speaker: you know, without trying to sound too like not humble, but it's like, like if that's, if that's me seeing myself accurately, right. It's like, okay, well, this is something that i have a unique ability to do. And therefore it can be a unique gift that I offer to the world. Um, and so even though sometimes I think, oh, if I get better, maybe I'll go back and work in this and that. and but then if I really think about it, because I did get reached out to, um to consider something like that. And I was like, actually, no, I want to be building this thing. that I'm, I think if I don't, if I'm not making this thing, I'm not sure this thing will exist. Whereas someone else will fill that job and do beautifully better than me. um So, so it's, it's kind of, it's seeing, um it's learning to see, you know, other people differently is learning to see options and like life stages and choices differently because I do, you know, see all my guests and their stories as like extremely beautiful. um And that's why we zoom in to this level because, you know, all this like beautiful human, messy, wonderful nuance. And um yeah. And so that's why like the show is called Culturful. It's culture plus F-U-L like beautiful. And that was very intentional.
Speaker: Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you wanna keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
Speaker: And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne Ancestral Alliance.
Speaker: And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.
