Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to GoodPing. And I told thousands of students, yes, I'm colorblind. Look at what I've been able to do. My art teacher told me that, remember when I told you that one day if you stay true to who you are, because everybody is unique in the world, so there are some things that only you can do. And if you stay true to the inspiration, you will get to do those things. More than anything else, I've heard thousands say, I was watching the sun go down and I saw one of your paintings.
Speaker: Welcome back to Good Pain. Today we sit down with First Nations Elder Master Carver and author Roy Henry Vickers. With over five decades of artistic mastery behind him, Roy carries a lifetime of earned wisdom, ancestral reclamation, and profound healing.
Speaker: Roy's life is a powerful testament to what it means to live artfully through the fire of human struggle. Having survived childhood trauma, colonial disconnection, and severe alcoholism, he reached rock bottom moment that transformed his life into a journey of unconditional self-love and forgiveness. Despite living with daily physical pain, Roy refuses to treat art as a commercial product or something to retire from.
Speaker: For Roy, retirement comes only when he stops breathing because inspiration is a divine, spiritual happening, a pure energy that moves straight down the spine and out to the tips of the fingers.
Speaker: In our conversation today, Roy walks us through the quiet wisdom of his elders, the healing medicine of the land and what it means to stay true to your calling, like painting iconic sunsets while partially colorblind.
Speaker: He reminds us that we are all inherent makers, that true art is priceless, and that sometimes the most profound human connection happens in complete silence. It was an honor to sit with Roy.
Speaker: I'm looking forward to you also sharing in this conversation and the quiet wisdom that he offers.
Speaker: I'm a very emotional person, and as you spoke, there's this feeling in the in the center of my chest. And it's like, it's that feeling when you're inspired, the energy comes through the top of my head, and it moves to the back and then down straight down my spine. and right to this area of my chest where my heart is, and then it flows out to the tips of my finger. And as you're speaking, that it was like that feeling is right there. and' I'm reminded that inspiration is a spiritual happening. It's actually divine, whether we believe in God or whether we're...
Speaker: I'm not a religious person. I grew up with religion and came to detest it. And yet I have this spiritual guide and it's pure. And when it's moving in me, my whole body is alive. And I'm 80 years old and it feels like the older I get, the more inspiration comes. And I am not able to do as much with it as I used to be able to do as a young man.
Speaker: And so it stays strong all of the time. And there are people that come across my path and this feeling reminds me that It's not going to end. It's going to keep going as long as you can breathe. So people ask me, when are you going to retire? And I smile and say, well, I was 27 years old when I left my last steady job as a fireman in Victoria. So I retired a long time ago. And when I retire, it will be when I stop breathing.
Speaker: I'll retire from this life. And until then, I will be following my path and being the creative person I'm meant to be. And good pain and joy are what keeps me together. So a guy with seven fractures, a broken neck, a fused left ankle, and physical pain every day of my life, getting out of bed in the morning, everything, it doesn't stop me from enjoying life.
Speaker: and being creative and speaking. And I realize more than ever now that those ah old people who took the time to invite me to their place for a cup of tea and sit down and talk, they knew something about me that I didn't know. And now I realize that they knew because it was inside them and they could see something different ah in that young man and that many people couldn't see. but They could see it because that's the way they were, following the inspiration and being aware of people and how they walk and how they look, how they talk.
Speaker: And so much of what they taught me was how to listen and how to feel the stories. And so as creative people, and we are all artists we all have this creativity inherent. It's in our genes. So we find the greatest joy by processing all of our emotions and then being, then doing. And the more we stay tuned to that, the the happier we are, no matter what happens in this world. i I hurt because my mom's gone, my dad's gone. And yet when I walk in the land, I realize, well, they are part of the land We become part of the earth, especially if we're not buried in plastic coffins.
Speaker: Just put it in a wooden box that decomposes and then we de decompose and we feed the plants. And so i enjoy them more when I'm out in nature or even just sitting here and seeing myself standing where they were buried. It's like they're still with me.
Speaker: And yes, I miss them. However, they are part of me. I'm not just this man. I'm part of the woman that gave me life and her mother and her mother's mother's mother.
Speaker: And so this all keeps me in this place of creativity and open to whatever's coming. heard two things that um you spoke of sitting with elders who saw something in you that you didn't see, and they didn't jump in and start telling you what that was.
Speaker: that that and and and foreshortening the period of time to to somehow get you there and that they had the wisdom to see it and to know that you would see it yourself and then i heard you say something similar regarding your ancestors who have who have left as well that they haven't actually left even though we oftentimes believe And in the Western world, the Western mind is is that there is an end. It is that they, in their almost re reunification with the land, with you, also wait quietly watching for you to rediscover them, that they are still alive as well. It's it's strong. And it was like the grandfather who was school. He wasn't trained by government teachers in the government school. He escaped residential school. He escaped all school.
Speaker: But he spoke eight languages and he raised nine children. hu And I'm fortunate to be the son of one of his sons and to spend a lot of time with him. And I never heard a cuss word come from him, no matter how angry he was. I heard more laughing and joking. And he had this way of being that I hope I much like. And one day, as you were speaking, two things happened.
Speaker: went through my mind. And the first was, i wound up with a ah with dermatitis, and I didn't know what it was. And it came from a little cut or something on my foot, and it started coming up my legs. And I was doing this with 300 kids, I had a zoom and I was standing talking to these children and for 45 minutes and the last 15 minutes were excruciatingly painful and when it was over i turned everything off and went and got in my zero gravity chair which i'm in now and uh i fell asleep and i was going down this long hallway feet first and i looked down and i could see a light at the end of this
Speaker: like a tunnel. And I woke up saying, wake up, wake up, wake up, Roy. And I woke up and got to the hospital it just in time.
Speaker: and And I know what that's, I don't know what the light is at the end, but I know that I was going there and it wasn't my time. And how I knew that, i it's in a spiritual world somewhere. And the other thing was, um I was with my grandfather in a rowboat And we were towing two logs down the Kekatala Inlet towards the village. It was summertime. It was a big tide. And I heard the church bells coming across the water. I had this big smile on my face. And yeah, that's what we called Grandpa. Yeah, I says, well why are you so happy? And I said, well, I just heard the church bells and I don't have to be there.
Speaker: I don't have to be in Sunday school this morning. And he just smiled. And then I was left thinking about this. And I was like 12, 13 years old. And finally, i realized he never ghost inside that building. He's never been in there. I've never seen him in there. Granny's in there all the time, like three times a week. And so very carefully, i said,
Speaker: Yeah, and you don't go to church. See, he goes to church all the time, but I've never seen you go to church, not even to a funeral. Why? And he just did this. He looked up at the sky, looked at the water, looked all around, and then he looked at me and he said, this is my church. And it took me decades to understand what he meant. So that's my church. And religion, i don't have one.
Speaker: Spirituality, yes. I am part of all my ancestors and they are part of the land. And as a person living today in this world, as an artist who reaches hundreds of thousands of people, it's my responsibility to tell stories, to give insights that I've had, and hopefully other people will see them. And that's my life.
Speaker: That's my creativity. And it's why at 80 years of age, I'm still here enjoying what I do. Pain's still there, but it's good. The joy is there and it's joyful.
Speaker: Yeah. Oh, thank you. You mentioned two separate dichotomies. One is a grandfather who didn't have a use for school, but there's the difference between school and education or wisdom. I heard you also talk about the difference between religion and spirituality. And that oftentimes we can confuse that in the in the defined institution of school that education is happening there or or wisdom is being transferred there or alternatively that in the in the physical building of the church where religion is being practiced that spirituality is there. I think you and i both agree that that is a myth oftentimes. ah
Speaker: Oftentimes a useful myth in the context of power and control. And yet you found a wellspring, a flowing water in the embracing of spirituality, wisdom, and education that was never confined to a building.
Speaker: What does that bring up for you? um Winds from all the four directions, rain. There's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing. um The world is full of knowledge. And if we are open to the knowledge to receive what is there for us, it will come. And it isn't something you push or struggle for. It's something you are open to receive. And when you are, it just comes pouring in like a big picture of education.
Speaker: And the water just flows into Yeah. The other is that my experience in traveling to different places in the world is that all countries have experienced the oppression and ungodliness of religion. And it's always there to make money. It's always there to control and manipulate people. And how wonderful it is to be able to step away from it and let it have that armor of truth.
Speaker: like a knight's armor. And what you're doing is being protected from lies and deceit and control and manipulation. And you're able to be who you're meant to be. And sometimes you might not realize that you are being who you're meant to be. And then someone comes along and your conversation with them helps you to realize that it's all yeah you are doing what you should be doing. It's it's so it's okay, right?
Speaker: you just described in terms of becoming a vessel for receiving and channeling that education knowledge expression inspiration that oftentimes even within the realm of art We turn art into a static religion that is based on does it sell?
Speaker: Does the audience receive it? Does it? And that we do that to ourselves, forgetting that we want to channel. We want to create that flow. yeah What is that experience like for you in a way that that you know is not subject to the scrutiny of anything outside of yourself? Oof.
Speaker: That takes me, all sorts of things happened as you spoke. And one was this religious woman, Mother Teresa. And one of her lines was, I just want to be a pencil in the hands of God. She was speaking about more than art For me, it was, as you said, being a vessel, having the inspiration come into you and fill you up so much that you have to let it come out. And in that desire and the need to let it flow through you to the tips of your fingers to create whatever it is that you're inspired to, that's what's important. It's not, is somebody going to like this? Am I going to be able to sell this? And I learned that at a very young age.
Speaker: I learned that when I first got money and it felt not right. And yet I realized, well, you're a father.
Speaker: You have family to look after. And that's what that money's for. So what do I do with this? Okay, I know what I'm going to I am going to make a promise. I'm going to make a pact.
Speaker: with myself, never to sell out. And to me, selling out is creating art to make money. I'm going to stay true to the inspiration and not care about what somebody else thinks about what I do. How do I think? How do I feel? Did it did i did I create what it was that I was inspired to create. And there are times when I finished a painting and got up and left. I don't want to look at it. I don't want to think about it. One of them was when I first painted color, and I'm partially colorblind. And I was afraid to do this piece. And it's a long story, but I created a piece called West Coast Sunset. And it was a canoe with people in the canoe, and they were raising their paddles and saluting the beauty of the sun going down.
Speaker: And they were almost home to their village. And when I created that piece, I went inside and I thought, okay you have a disability. and yet you're doing all of this work So what do what do I have to do? Well, you took that camera. when When you went fishing and you quit the art world because all they wanted was money. They wanted your art so they could sell it and make money. And they didn't want to hear the stories anymore.
Speaker: They just wanted Mr. Moneymaker to bring his art in and gave me my money and said, goodbye, come back next month when you get your next piece done. And quit. 19...
Speaker: In 1979, I walked away and I stopped, but I took a camera with me. And it was an artist friend of mine who said, well, Roy, that's it's good that you're doing that, but ah you should take a camera and and take pictures of everything that moves you. When you see something beautiful, take pictures. now Okay, Ron. Ron Hamilton was his name is his name. I said, okay, Ron, thanks.
Speaker: And so I fished for two years and I carried a Pentax Spotmatic toot. And I took pictures, and many of them were of sunsets. And so that young artist who was wondering, okay, you did spring and you did fall and you did winter. Now you have to do a sunset in the summer.
Speaker: Why? Well, because it's the most beautiful thing that I could think of for summer on the ocean. sun going down what do i do Go and get those slides, put them in a tray and put them on the screen and just look at them one after the other.
Speaker: And so click, click, click. And I'm looking one after the other, one after the other. And gradually this understanding came to me and I stopped everything and I started drawing. And I always draw the painting. I draw the, I do a paint by number.
Speaker: And then I mix the colors and I put them in these little black 35 millimeter containers for the film and mix them. And I put numbers on the tops of the the little gray top. And then I put numbers on the painting and I paint my number so i did this with this piece and when I finished I went away and came back two days later and walked in and it was still sitting there and I looked at it and went wow you did it and it was like goosebumps everything just exciting and exciting as could be and I realized, yeah, dude you did it. And so I created a limited edition silkscreen print of it, and it was the favorite of everyone. And when I told people that I was colorblind, they couldn't believe it.
Speaker: And I would say, well, look at the colors. There's red and orange and yellow. I can see those colors. And besides, I have these paint tubes that have the colors written on the And so, and then light blue and darker blue and then dark blue and created this image called West Coast Sunset. And so you just stay true to inspiration and what you create will be greater than the sum of its parts. All your teachers, all your ancestors, all the knowledge you carry, it'll allow you to do something even though you're colourful. So that was another, that creation of that piece was another reminder that you just stay true.
Speaker: to the inspiration, and everything else will take care of itself. And it's happened for 52 years. Still does. And I've told thousands of students, yes, I'm colorblind, but look at what I've been able to do. and And I wouldn't have been able to do that, probably, if I wasn't colorblind.
Speaker: And so what my art teacher told me that, remember when I told you, roy that one day if you stay true to who you are, because everybody is unique in the world, so there are some things that only you can do. And if you stay true to the inspiration, you will get to do those things. And someone might come up to you one day and say, oh, I was oh fishing the other day and I saw your water.
Speaker: Oh, it's pouring rain and I saw your rain. And more than anything else, I've heard thousands say, I was watching the sun go down and I saw one of your paintings.
Speaker: So, and he asked me if I remembered what I, what he told me. I said, Mr. West, thousands. I've said, saw your rain. I've seen your ocean. I've seen your sunsets. And he said, so you know what's happening there? They're feeling the inspiration behind what I did. And he said, not only that,
Speaker: They're appreciating seeing something that they've never seen before because only you could do it. So that's been my guide for 52 years as an artist to stay true to the calling.
Speaker: Stay true to the inspiration. Within you sharing that, I hear the message and that you deliver to kids of these rules that in order for me to express, I need to see color. and And I also hear a playfulness with the fact that what you create, the inspiration that you channel, there are aspects of what you create that you cannot even see the way other people can see them.
Speaker: which reaches for you being a part of creating something that is touching on the inspiration that exists inside of others You know, in in a very real way of colorblindness. But yeah like um yeah what is that? What is that like? It's overwhelming.
Speaker: Yeah. It's very pleasing. It's more than anything humbling. Yeah. And I hear different spiritual teachers say, well, God is within you.
Speaker: Whoever, whatever that God is, you are, because it's part of you That force, that truth, that calling to be who you're meant to be comes from someplace that we don't really understand.
Speaker: But we know when it's happening because we feel it. It's not like money. It's not like making a living. It's living, just just living. and enjoying life and creating from that place of loneliness, pain, joy, allowing those emotions to help you be the person you're meant to be and create whatever it is that's going to come from inside you. And it always comes through the fingers. It always comes through the fingers. As I'm speaking, it comes through the fingers. amazing Yeah, that is a so much of the colonization of of me and and my peers in the United States is around this belief that that um right thinking, um thinking real hard about things is sufficient to drive that connection um with that inspiration with that.
Speaker: read enough books, gather enough knowledge, and there's something about that that even feels um like a stoppage. Like create a dam within your mind to gather all of the resources and then you can control those.
Speaker: And there's something about what I hear you saying about actually saying, yeah, but it's the fingers. It's the movement. It's the undamming of this block up here and letting it start to flow. And we in the Western world want to almost even take that process and say, oh yeah, I hear that. So now sell me the book on how to do that.
Speaker: ah yeah but you It's so so for us what i I hear a little bit aspect of there's a surrender there There's a surrender to being you to I am insufficient as a tool To use this or to believe in my own hubris that I can be the director that there is something more directing me like you said whether there is a True self or a soul a divine spark or got whatever that may be how do I surrender to being made a vessel and? This is where, in my experience, the trauma, pain, suffering has been the most effective way at removing that hubris, bringing me to almost like to my knees and saying, teach me. And I i hear the same for you.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah. And I, my uncle Roy, so I'm the eldest of my family. And traditionally, the eldest is named after the father. And that's ah European thinking, because traditionally, ancient people the world over are all maternal. So your life comes through your mother and her mother and her mother and her mother. And so what it was it I was trying to get to?
Speaker: My uncle Roy, I was named after him, and my grandfather Henry. And when I first realized how much this man, Roy, in his crippledness, he was he got kicked in the in the leg and it damaged his ankle and they took him to an Indian hospital called Miller Bay.
Speaker: That's where Indians went. there They weren't allowed to go to the Prince Rupert General Hospital. Only white people could go there. Well, they took him to this Miller Bay Hospital and they sent him home and said he'd be fine. Well, the damage in the leg, in the nerves, went up his leg and pretty soon he couldn't work his leg. And then it went into his right arm and he couldn't hit his right arm. Fist was like this and it was always behind his back.
Speaker: And so he walked with a limp. And when he smiled, only half of his face smiled. Oh, I see so many things in this. But if you needed something done, Uncle Roy was the one to do it. If the boat couldn't start, Grandpa would, Henry would take him down to the boat. He'd take the motor apart and find out what wasn't working. And he could see it and fix it and put it back together and it worked. And I remember asking him, how did Uncle Roy know that? And he said, well, he didn't. know until he saw
Speaker: what it was it didn't look right, and then he fixed it, and then it worked. And one time we were fishing, and these killer whale came through, and we were gillnet fishermen, and they scared it all the fish away. And everybody was taking their fish that they had on their boat and going and delivering it to this fish camp. And Uncle Roy said to Grandpa, and I'm on the boat with Grandpa and my Uncle Roy, never thought of this either.
Speaker: Roy Henry was with Roy and Henry. And Uncle Roy said, ein. no And he pointed over to this big kelp bed. He said, may make a set over there. And Grandpa, in his wisdom, just went over there and made the set.
Speaker: And I'm looking at this all going, oh, why did he say that? And why did Grandpa just do it? you didn't ask why or anything you just did it And when the sockeye came out of the kelp beds where they're hiding, they sunk. All of the corks started shimmering and they started going under. And Grandpa got on the phone and he called other boats to come and help because the net was, he's never caught so many sockeye at once in his life. Never did after that.
Speaker: And I just looked at him when it was all over. Five other gill netters came and they all filled up with sockeye. I said, well, how did how did't Uncle Roy know that? And yeah, i just said, he knows.
Speaker: He thinks like a fish. That's it. And so I got named after this man. who dealt with pain his whole life, but it didn't stop him from being this incredible person who helped everybody.
Speaker: He could row a boat with one hand. Mind you, his hands were massive, and I've tried to do this and can't do it, but he could row this rowboat and take us little kids for a ride in the skiff. and i I was thinking about it as an older person, wondering, how did he ever do that?
Speaker: And gradually, as the question is answered, the ask, the question is answered when you think. And realized that he had really, really, really long oars.
Speaker: So they weren't short. So you you went way up high like this and like that. Now his were just... He knew things. he His disability, his pain helped him to learn to do things that he could do to help people. And that's the way it was. And Grandpa, who never went to school, Uncle Roy, who never went to school, they were the two wisest men that I've ever known in my life in 80 years.
Speaker: I keep hearing with your stories, with the people that poured themselves into you, they saw the world differently. They saw the world differently, even in ways that the world would say, unless you see the way that we see, you have no value here. Right.
Speaker: It's It is crazy. It is crazy. i It's... The horror is true. yeah sorry No, go ahead. I want to hear you say it. It's ah priceless. Yeah. so So this is what I learned as a young artist. People are going to put a price on what you do, and they're going to put it up on the wall. And that price isn't what it's worth.
Speaker: because it's priceless. It's a story. It's who knows how many how many lives and truths come into you to create something that is inspired. And so what's important is that somebody sees it and somebody reads the story.
Speaker: Whether they buy it or whether they don't, doesn't matter. But if it touches someone, that's that's what it's about. And so, right, it has no value because it's priceless. Even that notion of, you talked earlier about selling out and and money. Now you've just mentioned priceless. And there's something about...
Speaker: Those terms for me being a mirror up to us about all the ways that we are asked to compromise our wholeness. That what you just described is this was priceless until we assign a price to it. And what we don't oftentimes recognize is is that we are assigning a price it.
Speaker: to our soul and and that the soul is actually priceless and we sell out when we assign a fixed amount that we can be bought for forgetting that I am not for sale. okay yeah That's a hard thing to remember, though. it's And many people never learn it.
Speaker: And they go through their whole lives working at a job that makes the money that they were taught to make. And then they come to the end of the job and they retire and hope that in retirement, the money that keeps coming in takes care of whatever needs take care And yet, There are people who lived in this village for 5,000 years before schools and government came to the west coast of Canada. 5,000 years. And they lived successfully and enjoyed life with no money.
Speaker: Yeah. How did they do that without a stock market? Oh, my goodness. yeah So no, the knowledge, that knowledge that we, that I've always been after has been beyond the actual piece of artwork because it goes into this spirit world were ah in spirits where inspiration comes from. And as long as we stay there and create from there and be as much as we possibly can from there, then we will be happy with
Speaker: our lives. and Do we have pain? Yeah. we have emotional pain? Yeah. What's it for? Well, it's to help me realize that everyone does. And what joy you can find in all of that pain and what inspiration you can allow to flow through you.
Speaker: Through all of that is what you're meant to do and to share with the world around you. And others will see it. Those that are ready, will they'll see it. They'll find it So I've been happy to come back and move into the country where I grew up. And today, after speaking with you, I'll take this this body full of pain and drive to my boat on the water, and I'm going back to my village. And I'll be there tomorrow.
Speaker: Last week, I was where my grandfather came from. Moving from where your grandfather was to your village, how does that call to you now in terms of when it's time to move, when it's time to move on?
Speaker: always wondering if i'm if I'm doing what it is I'm meant to do. Not the right thing or the wrong thing, but what I'm meant to do. At 80 years of age, Am I doing what what I can do? Well, yes, I am. I'm actually doing more than what most people think I should be able to do.
Speaker: Can't believe I will go out on the ocean at 80 years of age by myself, but I do. And am I afraid? Well, of course. But what will keep me safe? And safe from what?
Speaker: excuse there boy Is that a dichotomy? What will keep me safe and safe from what? Well, the knowledge that I have, keep me where I'm supposed to be.
Speaker: And it will carry me over those waters that I traveled with my grandfather and my uncle. and And I will go back to my village and see some friends and walk on the dust and bones of my ancestors from that place. And when I leave there, I'll have tears.
Speaker: Why? Because i I'm happy. so If that makes sense to some people, it does to me. it's That's what it is for me.
Speaker: Do I fear? Yes. But I hear you recognizing that fear can be used as a means for keeping us from something, as opposed to fear being, in some respects, a spirit of pointing you toward something.
Speaker: but yeah Wow. Yes. Yes. i As you spoke those words, two things came to mind. It was this freckle-faced, red-haired woman who came walking out on this stage, and she tripped, and she got herself together and got to the little lectern to talk to us. It was in a place called The Meadows in Arizona, place where I went for healing. And she said, well, ah this is not a coincidence that i tripped there, and you you couldn't see the freckles on my face because I was so red.
Speaker: I was embarrassed. I was ashamed. But what was I ashamed of? Tripping over something? like Why would I be ashamed of that? I'm not perfect. We will trip often. No reason to feel ashamed.
Speaker: And as I thought of that, you could see my freckles again. And then she was talking about emotions. And she started walking to the edge of the stage. And she said, imagine that I'm walking to the edge of a 40-story building. And there's no railing.
Speaker: um there And I'm going to look over and see what the traffic looks like. And i almost peed myself. The fear was so massive. And I could feel this. And she said, i got close to the edge and I looked over and I stepped away from the edge very quickly because the fear was massive. Fear is where our wisdom comes from. Fear is where wisdom comes from. It doesn't come from a book. It doesn't come from anything but experience. And maybe someone else told us. And I've used that description that I just gave you over and over and over since 1992. So emotions meant
Speaker: so our emotions are meant for us to learn. And if we can be open to the knowledge, then we will be safe.
Speaker: Safe from what could hurt us. And so when I go out there by myself on the ocean, what's the wind doing? What's the tide doing? How far am I going? What's my fuel like? Am I going to be bucking the tide and so it's going to take longer? Maybe. But all of everything that I've learned from those who've helped me to be the ocean guy are there to keep me safe.
Speaker: The way you just described the ocean, the tides, paying attention to all these pieces, I recall what you what I heard you share about the elder looking at you and seeing the oceans and the tides of you and this great, intense, consuming listening of I am seeing. I could see even the things potentially in Roy that would get him into trouble.
Speaker: I could see those things. And I trust that I'm right where I'm supposed to be. I'm present. I'm listening. I'm watching. I am walking with my ancestors who are in the waves that are in the tide. Beautiful. I heard this old lady as you spoke. It was summertime and I was, i was six, five or six years old. Must have been five because I don't remember going to school those days. But I remember in the summer, everybody left Kit Katala except for my mom and me and Art and our baby sister, Margaret, and all of the old people who could not travel. And my mother wasn't only the school teacher there. She was the chief counselor of the council in the village.
Speaker: And she ran the dispensary. So she was the nurse in the building. And I was so lonely, so lonely because everybody was gone. And when I hear the west wind blow, sometimes I can feel that loneliness comes back. And then I remember walking up from our house, and it was probably 40 yards to this house on the corner. And the door was open, and the fire was on. And I could hear somebody, hmm.
Speaker: Don't know what she was humming, but i walked to the door and it was kind of dark in there because her windows were small because in the winter it let so much cold in. And she was sitting over by the fire and she was working with cedar bark. She was weaving cedar bark. And am just watching and I heard, seeing almost with a little anger behind it.
Speaker: Come in. Come And I jumped and i walked into this her little house and inside the door, but not very far because I'm a shy person.
Speaker: And i heard her say, Dan, Dan, sit. And there is one checker. It was right beside her. So I walked over very tentatively and sat down. She didn't speak a word after that. I don't know how long I was there, but I could hear her happy. I could see her hands just incredibly working with this. And I was totally engrossed in what she was doing.
Speaker: And then i heard my mother and I went, oh, thank you. tomo your needs And she just stopped and looked over at me and nodded her head. And laughed.
Speaker: I realized as an adult that you can visit someone without saying word. You can enjoy their presence, their doing, the warmth of the fire. And so i went running down to the house because I was going to be in trouble about with me for my whole life. And I've told that story thousands of times because we don't have to be talking all the time. We can communicate in yeah That being with each other, you talked about instead of doing with each other, is its own form of creative expression. It does not need to be justified with explaining what
Speaker: What's happening here? where' We are being together. um And i I hear that more and more of an appreciation or more of a spirituality of of that being that continues to grow within you in new ways. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Now that I'm that old guy. Yeah. Sometimes I'm the same with other people. and yeah And sometimes I have to calm when people just want to talk and talk and talk. And I don't want to talk. what And I'll just say, it it's okay. It's just the way they are. Just listen. And so I have two friends, two friends in my life that I've been like that with. I just saw a sign there about the internet or something.
Speaker: It did. I think we're good on on our side. Oh, yeah. Your sound is gone. Can you hear me now? I don't know if I'm... Oh, there you are. Good, good. um I can hear you. i just saw it change a little bit. So I'll make sure we edit that part out. But you were saying you have two friends who are like that.
Speaker: Yeah, two guys. One that I was friends with till his death. And were hunting or fishing together or out on the boat together. He was in the fire department. And he was the one guy from the fire department that we stayed friends with until he finally died. And there were times when we would talk and talk and talk back and forth like this. And then other times when 30 minutes, 40 minutes would go by with us not saying a word. And it was all comfortable. And he would actually say a few times, you don't mind it when it's quiet, when we're not talking. He said, no, I
Speaker: I like it. I like it when we're talking too. But I like it when we can just be comfortable with each other without saying anything. Because I know you're comfortable and you know I'm comfortable and we enjoy each other's presence. It's not like we're not learning anything.
Speaker: were experiencing. And so that woman, that old lady helped me to understand that you can experience someone without words. You can be happy with them without words. And sometimes you can learn more. Like her working with her hands. I was, all I did with my hands in those days was draw with a pencil. had trouble in school. But later, what I learned from her and her what her hands could do became part of my schooling.
Speaker: When i went to do things that no one was doing in those days, no one could teach me because no one knew the culture or the art. Knowing that if you're open to will.
Speaker: Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
Speaker: And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface-level advice, subscribe to our Kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
Speaker: And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.
