Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to GoodPing. I do see a lot of inspirational stories. And and I feel again, in in this moment, when we are in this world, in our life, we have kind of the opportunity to behave based on on the truth that we are connected.
Speaker: and my happiness is connected with yours and that my heart is bigger than just my own body. And we can live by that truth or we can live by the truth of selfishness.
Speaker: This week we're bringing part two of making a way back home. In both these parts, our goal was instead of talking about some of the more pragmatic, concrete ways of making art and expression, was really to remind us again that we are all makers, even within reaching for imagination to creatively explore the possibility of something different.
Speaker: That is what artful living is all about. Because the closed deterministic view that we revisit violence with violence or eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, offense for offense, that's what keeps us living in a contracted small.
Speaker: But our In being makers, we always have a choice. And last week when we talked with Dr. Prashisha Vickers, she talked about the choices that she had to forgive. And in this week, we're talking about the choices through the lens of Tarek. Tarek is a Canadian Egyptian entrepreneur, a healing practitioner and documentary producer. He originally trained as an engineer in the 90s, and his enduring interest in psychology, mysticism, and cross-cultural healing led him to earn a master's degree focused on Greco-Arab medicine and Sufi healing traditions.
Speaker: Since 2023, Tariq has pursued in-depth training in Saurigpa, a Tibetan medicine, and he now offers Saurigpa-informed treatments and accompanies clients on healing journeys.
Speaker: Tarek was also a producer and created the award-winning documentary Free Trip to Egypt, which we discuss in today's conversation. And it follows his initiative to invite Americans, amid our rising polarization, to visit Egypt and engage in person-to-person dialogue with Egyptians. The film has inspired the global pledge to listen movement.
Speaker: Welcome to our conversation. I feel like I'm going back to my geeking out roots right now. because I'm currently in a program where I'm studying and and I realized that I love studying. I love learning and I always have, but it's it's dangerous to have a love of learning when you're a child, right? As a child, you know, it's not cool to to like so learning, right? So so so i realize I didn't realize that until actually now, this phase of my life,
Speaker: And I would joke with people, but it's half joking. It's like, wow, I can actually just study things and learn about stuff and not fear I'm going to get beat up. You know what I mean? Like, so that that enthusiasm for learning, um it's always been there, but it's always been a bit dangerous because, you know, you want to dumb dumb yourself down a bit, fit in, not be so enthusiastic about stuff, right? That's kind of the way you survive grade school, right?
Speaker: I think the aspect you just mentioned was this rediscovery that it's almost it's discovering you. And what has that been like?
Speaker: How did it find you? How did you have this wake up moment where you found I really love this? Yeah, think for me, I've never had like ah ah maybe there are a few kind of big moments, but I think in general, for me, I've i've experienced life as as as gradual and gentle in terms of change, almost to the point that you don't notice the change until all of a sudden something triggers in you where you remember, oh actually, i am a little bit different. Right. So I think it's it's kind of just being ah a graduate. Like, I think my transition has been to live childhood based on kind of survival, pleasing people, making sure you you kind of did what was needed to be done. And and then I realized that, yeah, maybe in my early 20s that I didn't know what I liked.
Speaker: You know, and I think a lot of people have that. they they're They're just living to to survive or to be safe. and And then it's like an aha moment when someone tells you, well, just do what you want to do. And I'm like, I don't know what I want to do. Right. and so I think that was like the first thing. And then it took me a long time to realize actually singing brings me joy, right? That's when I feel happy, right? And that was like the first thing I remember loving is i love to sing. And i'm I'm not a musician, I'm not a great singer, but I love it, right? then that kind of developed and a few more other things I started to learn that I loved, etc. Until it got me to this point that I can admit i love learning, Right. I love like that. I'm not doing this to be a a straight A student or stuff, but but to learn. And also, I think there's a stigma in our society if you want to be good or be kind to others.
Speaker: That's something also dangerous. You don't want to look like that. Or at least that's what I felt, that that's dangerous. right so so to either because you know you're you're a goody two shoes you're not brave you're not this or you're the other way you're a show off right that you want to you know you're doing this just to show off so i think now it's like you know what i i love learning and i love learning things that are going to help other people that's why i'm i'm loving what i'm doing because i'm learning about tibetan medicine craniosacral therapy And I use it really on practical clients that how it's going to make their life better. And that's just something I'm i'm passionate about. So it took a it was a long curve to get to finally, OK, it's OK to do things you love. And to the point where actually that's the best thing you can do for others is to have that spark of joy um because then you're you're just you're you're just in it. You're doing it. There's no such thing as compassion fatigue.
Speaker: I think compassion fatigue sets in if you're doing something because you feel you have to or it's important or you want to, you want to live to a certain ideal. But if you're doing it because it's bringing you this spark of joy, it's it's almost like an infinite amount of energy that comes through you. And the reciprocity is in itself, right? You don't need recognition from that, right? So I think it's kind of coming back to really doing what I really want to do. And I really also believe like if you're truly selfish, um it's actually a good thing. The problem is that we are are we're selfish, but we're ignorant. So we do things thinking it's going to bring us happiness.
Speaker: But ultimately, when you serve others and you bring compassion to the world, cetera, that's what nourishes you. So so it's coming in to what I feel is ah a healthy selfishness.
Speaker: where i'm i'm just nourished from this and and who cares yeah you know so that's kind of where i'm at right now and how is your compassion fatigue tied to i'm tired of simply trying to survive even in venues that on their surface look like you're doing the right thing ah that's a very good question actually and and and i think i think there is So did to to to answer that, i a I think there is no, I think there is a right thing for each individual, which might be very different for for every individual, right? right so so So if I'm helping somebody, um that might be right for me, depending on the intention it's coming from. And if the same person, a different person does the exact same action of helping that person, that might be the wrong thing. Right. So I think it depends really where your intention is and where it's coming from. And for sure, it's it's exactly what you're saying. I think if you're coming and and and I'm not saying, oh, I used to be in fear and now I'm in love. And then no, I think I think life is is every moment presents fear and love. And sometimes we're there and sometimes we're in another place. So I feel if
Speaker: if If you approach it, um i think a lot of a lot of the layers for me of of of gaining contentment and peace have not been learning things as much as it's been unlearning things. So it's it's realizing, so this this compassion fatigue occurs if I'm doing it out of a sense of obligation.
Speaker: if I'm doing it out of a sense of fear, if I'm doing it out of a sense that I should be compassionate, right? So I think that's where the intention is. So if the intention is to be a good person or to appear as a good person, but you're not you're not feeling it, then I think that's where the the stress comes in. And then that's where the fatigue comes in. I feel the fatigue comes in when when you're kind of suppressing something or you're trying to be something you're not. right? So I think authenticity is is really key to really finding that.
Speaker: And that's why it goes back to personal joy, is what should be, or for me, that that joy, that creativity is the fuel. And if it comes from there, then the action, whatever action it is, I think feels well. And this contrary, if you don't have that, whatever action, if you're behaving just like Mother Teresa, but you're not Having that that joy and that lightheartedness, that is where I feel, yeah, you'll be just absorbed or I would be absorbed by by compassion fatigue.
Speaker: You've gone through various iterations of trying on different things. What are some of the things from your story that contributed to this recognition of who it is that you want it to be? What it is you want to express and what you want to bring into the world?
Speaker: It's a really hard question to answer because it it kind of presupposes there's a way of doing things and I haven't figured that out. There's something like i feel there's a grace.
Speaker: I like the word grace, you know, by the grace of God or or just simply it wasn't something like that that I've achieved. There's a lovely story we grew up with as children, Solomon and the ant. This ant is walking along and gets separated from its pack. And then all of a sudden, the stone lands in its path. And the ant's trying to push the stone, which, of course, it can't do, but it's doing its best to trying so hard to move this stone and it just won't stop until finally Solomon walks by and smiles with compassion at this poor little ant and then moves the stone.
Speaker: It wasn't the ant's effort that moved the stone, but it was the ant's effort that moved the stone. Without the the effort, that the stone wouldn't have been moved, but it wasn't like a causal connection. I feel that's kind of what life is for me. a lot of times there's all this trying or going down this path or even failing and then just picking up the pieces. um And you it's not through success or kind of an aha moment. It's through just losing a layer of pride.
Speaker: right? that That just makes you feel so vulnerable and so lost. And then it somehow shifts you into a softer being and a less judgmental way. And somehow this whole, you didn't have any new insights, you didn't achieve anything, and just the opposite, you failed, you stumbled. But all of a sudden, you feel ah a sweetness in the universe, some something, some sort of compassion. And right, so that that's why it's kind of hard to to to bring the words to it. You know, one thing i bring up frequently in episodes because it's such a moment, monumental event in my life is when my daughter was injured and eventually getting nine years forward of that event. It was like pushing against the stone of my own trauma.
Speaker: my own synthesizing of what had happened and eventually reaching a point of futility where recognizing this stone, it's not going to move. And even that recognition though, doesn't mean I stop trying. It's like maybe this time, if I push it this way, I'm being brought to this point of finally asking for help. And I don't know how.
Speaker: And so that picture that you paint, it's really stark for me. How about for you? You have moments when that stone is alive for you and you look back over some of the things you've done.
Speaker: My life hasn't been this kind of big things happen, like it's been so subtle and gradual, but I was raised as a Muslim and I was really practicing quite hard as a practicing Muslim from the ages is of 17 to early twenty s And i was like, Like, you know, here in Ottawa, I was raised in Ottawa, Canada, and I was part of them at the mosque um and and and I was quite the activist.
Speaker: So and this gave me a lot of sense of community. Also, you know, I'm giving presentations and this and that. And I'm like so young. Right. But it got to a point where practicing certain things in Islam, I couldn't do.
Speaker: And i wanted so bad to do them. And then I didn't do them. And then I failed. And then i begged for God for forgiveness. And then i failed again. Right. And it was this this cycle of of trying so hard to the point, got it got to the point where I had my most Like I was actually visiting Mecca one time and then had this most, the most amazing spiritual moment for me where I felt God's love really from an Islamic perspective and felt everything. and I'm like, I'm going to be the best Muslim ever now and da da da and never. and
Speaker: And it was like within less than two weeks. I messed up again. Right. But this time the guilt was so overwhelming, I couldn't handle it anymore. And my whole faith collapsed. I just became angry. I'm not going to ask for forgiveness. This is bullshit and all that stuff. Right. And I became an atheist. Right. for a period of time. And it it was a really dark moment where I lost my community. I lost myself. I felt like it ah complete failure and ridden with guilt, no friends. And so it was just horrifying, horrible, right? and And then I slowly kind of found my way. And that's what what led me to do my master's in the study of mysticism and religious experience.
Speaker: And then I rediscovered, um A, I discovered other religions and other wisdom, which was profoundly moving. And through this understanding, I rediscovered a different version of Islam that moved my heart. Right. So so this this whole kind of despair and failure and all this stuff. So it wasn't like, oh, I became broader and wiser and all that. No, it was like a crash, a horrible, you know, dark night of the soul, like feeling cut off, feeling shit, feeling depressed. And then that was a catalyst for for searching and finding. And then I found something where where I feel like
Speaker: I feel closer to Islam than I did in that way. But I also feel closer to other religions. And I feel more this respect, like understanding. Like for me, I really feel religion is is the language of symbols. and and And we use symbols because we're we're talking about the infinite that's that's beyond words, right? But it is a language, right?
Speaker: and And you and I, we speak English and English is my easiest language, but it doesn't mean German is wrong. Right. Right. So I feel i've I've developed different symbolic languages and I don't know why they have to be against each other. Right. So that's the thing. But again, it was that through that failure, that sense of giving up that through the grace of of God and the universe, that somehow it was a positive thing in the end. This incredible effort that you put forth under this inherent belief that effort was sufficient to make you a quote unquote good Muslim.
Speaker: That bridge then from effort fails and it switches and you you cross over into atheism. Maybe we start first with for you.
Speaker: what What did atheism mean for you? Right, right. and And there's a broad spectrum of of atheism. The more proper word would be like a materialistic worldview.
Speaker: Like nothing exists except what I see in front of me and my senses. It's more that. That's what I felt. Because it was too painful to think, because the other world that was beyond the senses, that was symbolic or the world of the heart, I associated with this path that I had failed. So I just had to shut down. there was no other way for me to do it because I didn't have another...
Speaker: another inlet into it. the The inlet into it was just the pain of of guilt and suffering and and and and this. So that's why i felt it was like a psychological protection. Okay, you can't go there.
Speaker: so So it was this just materialistic worldview that this is all that exists. Just focus on on on what you can see, feel, smell, you know, that's it, right? And yes, I am using kind of language that that that was positive, this is negative, which is which is fair enough. But i I feel anything that is limiting our senses, including our heart and and and the and the depth,
Speaker: is negative. That's what I consider negative is when we limit ourselves and and don't, yeah, the the more we constrain ourselves through through through our our minds, limiting like limiting ourselves.
Speaker: That's a negative thing. And when, and I think it's the, that that is the illusion and and fear, fear and, and hate and all these things that kind of limit us into thinking, okay, we are these kind of wooden entities that just end here.
Speaker: Right. So that's kind of the feeling I had like this, this, I'm this one little entity with my little senses and nothing else exists and there's no connection. Right.
Speaker: and And I feel religion and spirituality and even compassion in atheism, like there's there's very compassionate people who don't believe in a deity, etc. And even religions, certain types of Buddhism, they are not constrained by that, right? So the languaging is a bit challenging.
Speaker: at this moment after you've tried so hard to bring and materialize your belief with whether we want to say evidence or or the or the things we hope are going to happen is that the next move that you made was toward this space of really limiting to only what you can sense and perceive. That must be the only thing therefore that is real. And yet by doing that and actually giving yourself the world is this, what I can perceive, at least for now, it became the catalyst for other things to start coming forward. And you didn't do that intentionally.
Speaker: This is why it's it's very hard, you know, when people ask, oh, what what should I do? or Right? because Because it's not such a linear linear path, linear progression of if you do this. It's not a causal. We're going beyond the causal relationships. That's but that's that whole point. There's this softness.
Speaker: There's something that wants to unfold. And I think we're kind of part of that in in a very... magical way. There's this something else and we we sense that. And then we ask this question of oh what is that?
Speaker: We have a choice then to either indulge trying to really say, well, let's discover or define and categorize what that is And I heard you earlier even talk about there aren't words, there isn't a name for this sufficient to contain it. And yet so much of what we try to do is to contain it so that we can convince ourselves that we know it or even we can control it.
Speaker: That can be limiting. And paradoxically, at the same time, it's it's almost like the I like the you know the the digital world. Remember when we had these big pixels, right? And and and the pixels kind of...
Speaker: made a little image, but right, and we've gotten so we keep trying to refine it until you know, we've had these amazing images that that are are mirrors of of reality now, right? I feel our words are the same. It's the same journey, our words are so clumsy. So yeah, sometimes people use words to control, etc. But sometimes, It can also be an act of of worship or an act of awe that we're trying to use these words and refine them. and And we won't get the image. We won't get that reality.
Speaker: But just the action of of celebrating it can also be an act of devotion. So there was a time where I thought, okay, my mind is always just getting in the way of my spirituality, etc. But then I realized, no, it's again, it depends on the intention and how you're doing it is So there's also that aspect to it, I feel.
Speaker: You chose as part of your journey to shine a light on one of those pixels within your documentaries. within the documentary you produced. What was your aim to show um that part or that aspect or perspective?
Speaker: And what was your relationship at the time? And now, what is your relationship with that? And how has has it evolved? The documentary basically was, again, that was a clear example of a spark of creativity. First, feeling a sense of helplessness. This was when um Trump got elected the first time and in 2017. And regardless of him, that was the beginning of ah ah a lot of demonization and vitriol and polarization in politics. And and it was really horrifying to to see that, especially especially I was living in Switzerland at the time and to see America, a country that I really also loved as a as a Canadian, we never felt we were different. We always grew up on American television, et cetera.
Speaker: So then I had that feeling of powerlessness. And then I had this image one time when I was on a tram in Zurich of wouldn't it be amazing if I actually went to America and searched out those people who were afraid of me and Muslims and stuff like that.
Speaker: and and found those type of people and had a conversation with them and maybe did something kind for them instead of running away from them, right? That was kind of the the thing. And that idea just just, it was crazy enough to kind of bring me a lot of lot of joy and excitement. And i then I knew I had to do it, right?
Speaker: And then that's when I went. I did come to the United States. I went to all sorts of places. And I remember going to a Trump rally and and talking to people, right? And I would joke, half joking, because it's half true that my faith in humanity was restored at that Trump rally. Because I realize there are there definitely there are bigoted people, right, for sure. And and and I think the way i I spot a bigoted person is there's absolutely no connection.
Speaker: They're not in the conversation with you. right? But those people, there's there's there's hardly any of them. There's not a lot of those people in the world. the the The other people, they might use bigoted language, but they're doing it from a different place. They're doing it from a place of fear, a place of misunderstanding, a place of just, I just want to protect my family from these these threats and this crazy world we're living in, right? So it's not that they're bad people, right? And and that's what was a real gift for me, right? And then I met different people and I brought people from the Trump rally to Egypt. I paired them up with Egyptians and and it wasn't me educating anybody. It was me learning. It broke down my stereotypes of what I thought a Trump voter would be.
Speaker: And it broke down their stereotypes. And it was just the cliche of what happens when we meet at a human level. Right. So it was, again, that that that that spark, that something that that that wanting to connect that bigger thing. So, yeah, it was it's it's the continuation ah of of that path.
Speaker: this spark within you that has been alive whether it manifests in different ways for you learning is about exploring what it means to be human together and if if i learn about myself or i even learn about the world around me and i learned how to protect myself to do these things that would make me feel like a safe pixel in that broader picture and And while safety is important, that learning itself can start to become this this belief that I'm only a pixel. I'm not a part of the bigger picture.
Speaker: With your documentary, you're reclaiming that spirit of learning. Yes, we can use learning to learn separateness and division, but we can also learn community together. And that's something you demonstrated with that project was we can do this. We can imagine a different world.
Speaker: possibility. We can remember that we can learn to see each other's humanity. That was a very profound learning for me is that on that trip we had the most diverse community of people that I've ever been with.
Speaker: terms of religious views, political views, age, you know, all sorts of different, like, people. um And yet we managed to survive. So I was, it just left me with the question, well, why not?
Speaker: Why not the rest of the world, right? and And I don't have big dreams in my lifetime, at least, of us, you know, holding hands, singing Kumbaya or something like that. But I do feel there should be a way that we can get to a point that we can avoid war because the mass majority and majority of people do not want it. Right. So so, yeah. And and and i well it's not the political. It's not the religious. It's not all these divisions. It's not the racist. It's not these divisions. Right.
Speaker: right? there's there's There's, I think, a greed and power element of certain individuals that just bring on a whole other set of people to support them, right? So, yeah. So, it just inspired me to because, you know, moving in towards people, you you you connect and you learn. And I think also it's that place of going inside of you. You said, yeah, learning about yourself, learning about others.
Speaker: There's a very fine line. I think when you go deep in yourself, you're you're you're going to places of others and people were like, well, why aren't you reacting to what they're saying, cetera? Because you only react because you ah you don't want to go to that place in where you feel afraid and you feel vulnerable, et cetera. But if you're if if you're okay going there, the person's not going to trigger you, right? And and I feel that's also the, we were talking about, like when I was all constrained, it was, i couldn't go to places inside myself, right? And I feel there's this fear in us that we don't want to go to certain places inside ourselves, right? they were triggered in childhood or whatever that feel unsafe.
Speaker: And I feel there's a profound learning in just being able to feel weak, vulnerable, inadequate, and being okay and going in these places. It's almost like there's there's no more reason to be afraid anymore because we're afraid to be discovered in our weakness.
Speaker: And that I think is the fear, right? That I've gone through and I think... sometimes still do go through and and other people go through, right? And I think it's when we're able to just go to that parts and let ourselves feel everything, then there's a whole new connection and softness that that arises. and And I know Like I always remember, you know, walking down the street, this tough guy coming. In the end, I was always, well, why um why is that why was I afraid of this guy And in the end, I realized I was not afraid of him. i was afraid of the feeling that he might make me feel.
Speaker: right? That I'm weak and that he's more powerful. And that was a real turning point for me because I realized, yeah, it's the fears are what you're afraid someone's going to trigger inside you. It's never about that other person. You're afraid of feeling humiliated. You're not afraid of the words. You're afraid of feeling humiliated, feeling second class, feeling like you're not sticking up for yourself, right? Those are all internal feelings. Right. So I feel like when when we're able to go to these places inside of ourselves, we're able to kind of go further out outside of ourselves.
Speaker: Right. And an external person can only trigger you when what they're saying is triggering an internal voice inside you. Right. If someone calls me weak and I don't think I'm weak at all, it's not going to trigger me.
Speaker: But if someone calls me weak and I do feel I'm weak, yeah I'm going to explode. Right. So, yeah, these are all it's it's it's the same theme just in different manifestations. Now, for individuals that just heard that portion of the conversation and are saying, yeah, I i get that. But there's very real consequences of being.
Speaker: Physical harm, loss of life, families being ripped apart. We can talk about togetherness and community, but how does the pragmatic concrete reality of pain and violence, how does that start to reveal within us our relationship to the material world in in in light of the fact that people are being put into detention centers and are being killed?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a so really good question. And it brings me back to actually, are you familiar with Viktor Frankl? Yes. It's just beautiful, like, like he took, you know, the stories of Holocaust survivors, and how people survived such a horrible situation. And also, it's happening in Palestine, right? And and so it's it's not this's just the US, it's everywhere.
Speaker: and and And I feel there's like I'm in no position to tell anybody who's being ripped apart from their family or watch their their their children killed to give any type of advice. Like, I don't know. I really don't know what I would be doing in that situation. um But I do see a lot of inspirational stories. And and I feel again in in this moment.
Speaker: When we are in this world, in our life, we have kind of the opportunity to behave based on on the truth that we are connected. And my happiness is connected with yours and that my heart is bigger than just my own body. And we can live by that truth or we can live by the truth of of selfishness.
Speaker: Right. and i And I feel that. And that was the thing, like like ah examples of from Viktor Frankl's book where where he was talking about, you know, they got like whatever bread and and that person would share their bread. And that person who shared his only loaf of bread with his wife.
Speaker: that's where the inspiration comes. That's where, that's the only thing we have is is to help each other and to do our best to protect the less privileged, to stand up against genocide for whatever people, to to protect the safety of all people, you know, to to do that, right? I feel that. And it's always interesting because there's a difference between the people who talk about the people who are suffering and those that are suffering.
Speaker: right And the people who talk about those that are suffering almost use it as an excuse to look at the world as being bad, while there's so many stories of those people who are actually suffering that are just so inspirational. So so yeah I'm not in a position to say anything or judge anything, but I do believe that that it's all about opening up to what is real. And what I believe to be real is that we are all connected. And and if we live from a place of that reality, then things become more, you know, a lot easier and fluid and, know,
Speaker: And there's a connection. And I believe that continues until we die. Like the more we identify with just the materialistic aspect and the physical aspect and the greed, et cetera, those things are going to end when we die.
Speaker: but I feel if we're connected with the more subtle aspects of our heart and connection, death will be softer and gentler because we're that part does not die because we are...
Speaker: you know, connected, right? So yeah, that's that's how I see all that. But again, here I am from my ivory tower, right? The image is whole until the individual pixels start to believe not only that they're not a part of the whole, but also believe that in order for them to convince themselves of their own pixelness, they must kill other pixels or or or subjugate them and then forgetting that to kill other pixels is for the whole picture to suffer to lose aspects of the beauty that we may never see a whole picture again we we almost forget to remember that we need to remember that and and you've just described cancer
Speaker: That's literally what cancer is, it's right? Whether we use a pixel analogy, that that is the reality of of cancer, right? so So I feel health, the the health of something, the the universe replicates itself, right? So whatever principle, it's the same principles everywhere.
Speaker: So so a physical health is replicable in mental health and economic health, et cetera. so So as soon as we just lose... put our ourselves like ah the individual pixel first, independent from the whole.
Speaker: We isolate the cells. We destroy everything around us, including ourselves, because then the cancer also dies, right? So so this is absolutely, and that's what, it it works at the physical level, the emotional level, like all levels, political level.
Speaker: right so it's very profound we have this response that inherently believes sometimes that if that set of pixels though the wrong set of pixels over there they're the cancerous pixels let's separate from those cancerous ones we'll just go over here and forget that if we do that if we don't address the suffering that is those that may be inflicting violence for whatever reasons they may carry if if If they inherently believe and we inherently believe that the only way we're going to survive is to propagate and take over, then we we need to be reminded then because the whole will suffer. The whole will not survive. When the whole when when when one side or one group, one cancer takes over, the whole suffers.
Speaker: and And we have these pernicious beliefs that says that I don't owe anybody anything. We have these ways of propagating that kind of thinking of separation that is full of things like don't owe anything to anybody. And we forget that I cannot extract myself from all the ways that I am kept alive by things that were built before me, legacies that I inherited, sacrifices other people made. And yet...
Speaker: and yet Even though I know those things, there's still this siren call towards that individual separation simplicity that I can, if if somehow I can make myself all that matters, then the world will be right with that. And and i I was raised, and you mentioned earlier this idea of selfishness as a virtue, and I think we also consider selfishness as a vice in terms of when it tips to greed and gluttony. And now that we're using this allegory of cancer pixels, we we have to remember that if we show up as pixels that are full of gluttony and greed, that we we need to reach for that other flavor of selfishness and as as a reminder. that I'm part of something bigger.
Speaker: it's It's something i thought I think about a lot because it happens it happens to me, of course. And and and this is why I'm, i'm A, i don't I don't hold judgment towards anybody. Like, I really don't. like Like, the people committing acts that I think are really horrible, I feel I could be that too, right? it's It's only because I have an open heart that...
Speaker: I feel empathy. i see other people as people, right, regardless. So, you know, i pray for the ones that are murdering because I feel, you know, that that's the best thing you can do for the victims.
Speaker: i still want justice for them. You know, we we feel like if if you're wishing well for the murderer, you can't wish justice for them. You know you can wish everything, right? and And I feel it's only because i have the grace that my heart is open, right? And I know when my heart's closed, then the greed and the materialism, etc. They're very comforting.
Speaker: They're very comforting. um So so there there are phases in my life where I'm like, okay, just, you know, it's fine, you know, go in that comfort and just remember your heart's closed.
Speaker: So there was at least I was conscious of that and saying, you know, it's fine when your heart's open, you'll you'll realize. And then and when your heart's open, and it's like, oh my God, this is such cheap. like It's nothing. it's not like It doesn't have any substance, right? So so for me, like like I see a lot of clients these days and and everybody is going through their own conflicts. But I realize everybody that I've met at least has a way back home, has their framework, has their, whether it's, you know, Jesus or Judaism or something, they they have an innate thing. Like yesterday, i was asking this woman, because she had mentioned she has guides. I go and she was going through such a struggle. And I'm like, well, have you called your guides lately? And she's like, oh, my God, I haven't even thought about them. do You know, so it's kind of that sense where I think each of us has our way back home. And it's through reminding each other, hey what's what's your way back home? whats What's happening? Are you okay? Are you, you know, having compassion for each other, but my way back home might be completely different than yours. And
Speaker: you know, and it's this, this, just this feeling of knowing I'm no better than you, you, your heart just happens to be closed right now, my heart might be closed tomorrow, and you'll be reminding me, etc. But I think it's, it's, it's offering each other those reminders. But again, I think each person does have their way back home. And it's just encouraging them. For some people, it's walking in the lake, along the lake, in nature, dance, meditation, like, Some people want to meditate, but they're happier dancing, you know, like just accept who you are. Right. But everybody has that thing that just brings them back. I feel right. And some people might be so down a path and so in pain that it might take them longer.
Speaker: But but I think everybody has a way back home. For this season, one of the things for understanding more effectively how we explore expression, art, and making is this conceit we've been using of the titles of our episodes as making fill in the blank.
Speaker: and i heard you making a way back home whether we're talking about even your affinity for learning early on and how that manifested in different ways the ways you sensed to reach out and come into the united states and do this documentary have conversations that all this expresses some understanding and acknowledgement that we're all trying to make a way back home.
Speaker: That as an individual, I have a very finite view of the overall picture of what home even is. i have a very unique spark within myself that points me towards a specific type of language, whether that is a resonance with types of wisdom traditions, or whether that is a spoken language or the languages of art, dance, music, and we're all trying to make our way back home. And that to me sounds like a calling within you. to enjoin people in very specific ways on this path of let's do this together thank you for seeing that absolutely but so my next question then what is home yeah that i don't know but but you know when you're there i think it's that feeling of of complete safety it's that feeling of there's safety is no longer a concept right because you're you're you realize it's it's you're you're
Speaker: There's something your essence is safe and and you're connected. There's that feeling. And yeah, so so that's what I've I feel for my personal self that when my heart is open, I feel safe. I feel connected. There's no strangers. There's just somehow people you recognize.
Speaker: That's how I sense it. And I feel there's a real joy when when people like clients get to that place as well. And it's really interesting because when if I do table work and and someone goes where you feel them and you you feel their home before they even say anything, there's just this pristine feeling.
Speaker: silence, the still point, just this, this, everything is good. And I think, i think that's it. And, and, and, and like in Tibetan medicine, there's the, the medicine Buddha mantra, and there's the, the one word, the Bikhanse. And I don't know if this is true, but this is how i always understood it is Bikhanse means everything is good.
Speaker: So you're not healing somebody. You're bringing them back to the consciousness, to to that still point, to the very essence that everything is good. And then the body remembers that. Why am why am I in such a distress?
Speaker: Because everything's good and the whole system kind of calms down. And if there's things out of whack, they heal, et cetera. it's That's home. It's going back to that place of innocence where everything is good.
Speaker: What I didn't hear you say was everything is good and rosy except for this and except for this thing over here. And that seems a little bit oftentimes where we want to edit or pick and choose the things that are included in the everything. I keep hearing from you. It's almost like profaning the idea of trying to define what home is based on what is excluded. We're missing the opportunity that it's a complete statement. Everything is good. Right. And it's it's levels. It's like you you brought up you know, someone suffering in the United States or or or being murdered or or whatever. that they
Speaker: It's not good there. there... but there I do believe there's an essence beyond the physical world. that There is no physicality. It's all a memory.
Speaker: Like we we just have the memory of of the past. There's nothing tangible. so so So at a certain level, there is nothing dangerous or bad or et cetera. And I think that's one of the big gifts of Christianity that, you know, that's the whole point that that was a real physical wounding the guy got there, right? Yeah.
Speaker: But there's a point that, yes, there is pain, there is suffering. But beyond that, there is something beyond, right? So at this level, of course, there's pain and suffering.
Speaker: But there is another level where our essence is absolutely safe, that's beyond all this. And when we're connected to that, and we bring that, I think that's part of our lives, all of us is bringing that to this imperfect material world.
Speaker: And we want that world to mirror that, that that expansive essence. And the more we bridge that, the more we connect to that, everything is good, we can make everything better here. Right?
Speaker: yeah you you just named what my upbringing was and i i think that picture of the religious leaders of that day routinely wanting to anchor to that everything is good except you have to do it this way and when you do at least you will not suffer at the hands of your religion which is why it was subversive to say there is a place for acknowledging there is suffering at this level. There is pain at this level. So let's not forget in the face of rules and spiritual dogma that pain or suffering is what allows everything is good to emerge.
Speaker: And forgetting includes that choosing the legalism of believing that the laws and the rules are going to rescue us from ourselves instead of relationships and active choosing be what unites and pulls us together. is what we need to remember and what i hear for you is that part of the making a way back home is remembering that we need to invert that safety of rules that the trust and the faith even in this idea that everything is good that that all things are permissible it doesn't mean that we become passive in standing for certain types or against certain types of suffering that is being inflicted on others and that making sure that one person and isn't abusing another.
Speaker: We do fight for those things. We do advocate for those things. We also don't forget that we can find, just like what you did within your documentary, we can find a sense of reminding ourselves that we can be human right here and right now, even in the midst of suffering. And that that might be the way we get to be home with each other for a brief moment. And if we did that more and pass that on more, maybe we do get to what you talked about, less war. You really highlighted the essence of of what i what I yearn for is is this kind of collaboration of humans, all of us, to to help us to respect each other
Speaker: and And in a way, just just respect that your home is different than my home. But I want to you know, I want to bring that out in you and and have you remind me. And and yeah. And when when you look at the world today, you just, it's it's just such a, it's it's so hard to understand, to make sense of all the people I meet And I'm sure it's the same with you. You know, you meet so many people and and and reconcile that with what's happening in the world, right? So I feel there's there's a disconnect. There's something we're not understanding or I'm not understanding. um And I don't think it's because I'm naive. Like, that could be one reason. But I don't think that's it. I really think most people, you know, not everybody wants to, you know, be completely kind and... But most people are happy not killing others and and and not being you know mean and and cruel. And and it it just there's I'd love to crack that nut, understand why why. Because I really feel it's just, if we if we did like a personality survey of the seven, eight billion people, I really wonder if it's like a thousand people causing this type of mischief.
Speaker: Or if it's a billion or a million, like I would really like, I just somehow feel it's, it's just unfathomable still to me how much, right So that's kind of, that's the question that's still lurking in my mind.
Speaker: You just named some of the most difficult aspects of that everything is good. And is that we can hold that we believe that we hold that to be true.
Speaker: And yet it's really hard sometimes when when we look out and we're the only... we're only able to perceive all the evidence to the opposite of that and that there is this invitation I feel like oftentimes that comes in that all I see is the evidence that right now there seems to be so much collateral damage and pain or evil there's so much and so much of it is unnecessary and I i I'm I almost Asterisk that because I think that's where my perceptions start to say, oh, I just made a judgment call.
Speaker: I just made the judgment call of, quote, um of unnecessary. And this is one of the most difficult things for me to reconcile because going back to my family story, i want to believe that everything that the places to where my family has been brought, the home that we have found, I want to believe that what What a three-year-old girl who fell into a pool, who by all perception of of my perception says her life was stolen from her.
Speaker: Can't we have a world where that's not necessary? And part of the struggle I have is that so much... of the people, so many of the people I admire, so much of the people I look up to that I think have found some semblance of home.
Speaker: It's hard for me to find people that have not experienced some of what I have determined to be unnecessary. And therefore, in order to get there, um was it necessary?
Speaker: And when I look at this collective aspect and say that My God, this is so difficult to watch and I wish it wasn't necessary. and And what if it is required? You just mentioned the mischief and the trickster archetype. A master of mischief is is one for me that shows up everywhere.
Speaker: And that trickster and mischief is the catalyst for bringing us back to human values. And those human values are ones that we create.
Speaker: And we create them collectively and they become shared beliefs that help us to remember and remind each other that we are a whole picture. And yet sometimes over time when we forget that very fact, when we forget this thing and the things we've created can no longer remind us of that connection, of why we held those values in the first place, why we chose them in the first place,
Speaker: There's got to be something that cracks us open again. And the means for being cracked open, they are sometimes really horrible to watch.
Speaker: And that's what I feel. And that's the paradox for me. And I don't have an answer for it. Yeah. yeah and And maybe it's just about asking the question. Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together.
Speaker: If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations. And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface-level advice, subscribe to our Kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com.
Speaker: Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands. And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame.
Speaker: Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.
