Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to GoodPing. There is something about learning the language of navigating the world. And when we talk about the creativity, we sometimes fail to understand that we're entering a new world.
Speaker: a world that has its own language. And do we want to inhabit that world? and And more and more, when I talk to people, what i know for myself is the answer is yes. But in order to do that, I need to adopt some degree of humility.
Speaker: Any time that we do something or set forth to do something, yeah we have a picture of what it is that we want to do. yeah And then we have the reality of whether we're able to to bring that to life or not.
Speaker: A lot of the practice and craft and technique building is about closing that gap. Exactly. So i think that's what we're going to say that, what what is this gap? What is it? What's the experience like? Why, why does it hit us in the ways that it does? And and so, yeah, i I think this is a shared experience that we all at least understand. So it's interesting when you were just describing that a little bit, because in my life, um, starting, i was always a creative person, which we've talked about, but i think it started to become a little bit more real when I started getting into oil painting. Oil painting was this great experience of kind of a richness of materials, the process of understanding color theory and how to mix the things to do what you want, understanding the atmospheric gap that's created, things in the foreground or the background, same color, yes, but one's darker, one's lighter. And, you know, so all this is incredible. And I say this because as much as I love that, I was also frustrated every single day because because it was not easy for me.
Speaker: And I had a vision. it was so clear about what I wanted to do. And then I felt like I had these giant rock hands, blinders on, so I couldn't see how but unattractive the paint going onto the canvas was looking because it was nowhere near what I wanted to do. And so it got a little bit better. So I closed that gap, but oh my gosh, it was a struggle every small time to truncate this conversation. i think that's why I no longer paint is because I just didn't feel like the work was worth the benefit of the final piece because it was okay.
Speaker: But I would, just never been accused of being a great painter. And I'm okay with that. But I love the process and I love learning. I've loved gaining that humility about, oh yeah, this is a long ways from where we you need to be. Like, yeah, I know that. Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for that very helpful feedback. But I think a lot of artists go through this. A lot of creative people realize, oh, I want to do this thing. This is going to be so great. I'm just going to buy some stuff. I'm going to set the music that's going to get me creative. I'm going to have a creative space. And then they realize, what the heck is happening? Why is nothing coming together in the ways that I want it to? And then it it goes on and on. And I think everybody experiences this in some way.
Speaker: what we all do in our own inborn creativity. We build a story first. I've used ah a couple of examples, I think in the past, making traditional bricks was one, making forts. There's just been a number of things I have pre-visualized growing up.
Speaker: One of the things that my parents asked me to do at one point was to trim some juniper bushes in front of their house. When when they made this request, one, it's not something I really wanted to to do. Nobody wants to do this. Right. That's why you got the call. That's right.
Speaker: but But then I look at these and I had seen ways that people had made topiaries or or sculpted into things before. Were you thinking like you're putting yourself in a Edward Scissorhand dynamic where you yeah like I'll just carve these things up into something awesome. Yes. yeah I mean, that, that was, that was very much what now I said, like, okay, let's, let's, let's, let's have some fun. I imagine something like Edward Scissorhands of being able to do this. And so I start building a story in my mind. I can see it. I can see what I want to do. yeah
Speaker: And I start filling in the gaps for how I'm going to get from where I am right now. Yeah. Having never done this before. Sure. Why would that be a limitation? that Yes. to To where it is going to be.
Speaker: Can you give us context about how big a juniper d bush plants were? These ones were probably at the diameter, at the widest spot. Yeah. they were probably five to six feet. These were mature. yeah These were mature from a height perspective. They were probably between 12 and 14 feet. So these are, this makes for a better story. Cause in my mind you were presenting this with great grandeur, but I was thinking, oh, well it's, it's a 12 inches tall and four inches wide. And you're just going to town like, okay, yes. we're instant Polar bears. Here we come or whatever. I don't, I can't even remember what it was that I had visualized that would have compelled me.
Speaker: for the first cut to be lopping off the top of the first juniper. Yeah, sure. I don't... But it felt right, didn't it? When you did it, you're like, oh, this is great. More.
Speaker: My attempts after that were not... There were not a lot of of further attempts after that. Because of your own choosing or because of the authority saying? No, because of my own choosing is is that at that point, I got lost in what do I do next?
Speaker: Partially because the minute that I made that first cut, Whether that was due to lack of skill, not being able to understand what's the proper sequencing here, what my entire story fell apart.
Speaker: It unravels. Like i it's still now what I do, yes. Like it's because there's this, that that first cut reveals very quickly that um I have tackled something and i i have put myself on a path that does not get to where I thought we were going. And you knew it instantly. Yeah. That's immediate where, where do I go from here? How, w what do I do?
Speaker: Sure. And the answer was, i don't know. And when we left that house, I think there were four junipers, three of equal size, one half the size of the other. And that was, yeah that was the, the evidence that was my direct fingerprints that I had left on this, this house and the foliage that adorned its, its front yard. I just want to acknowledge the fact that I think the world may have appreciated the fact that you chose not to go into one of grooming or a barber of some kind. That's right. That's the mentality. Yes. It was a bold first cut. Like it was a very bold first cut. Why go subtle? Yeah. Especially when you start. I mean, in all honesty, right? I think if you are, like, you know nothing about process when you're starting any new experience, right? And so starting with being timid is something that doesn't usually go hand in hand. Usually it's yeah broad strokes right out of the gate.
Speaker: And then you realize, oh, one of two things happen. Oh, that feels great. Yeah. I want more of that. Or, not exactly what I was hoping for. And it sounds like you got the latter. I see two things that frequently happen. One is before that first cut is made, there's this picture of perfection where I'm going to read everything that I can about this. I'm going to play out every possible scenario.
Speaker: I'm going to acquire as much knowledge as possible. At some point, I will make the cut. But for others, there's something that happens where a degree of paralysis that comes in that says, I'm not confident yet that it's actually going to play out exactly as I am visualizing it. So so until I can be 100% confident, where that's insulting other people and asking them, like, is this the right thing? or Then I won't take that step. The analysis paralysis thing that everybody now says on a daily basis, I think is almost cliche now, almost right, be because of every reason. People start to recognize hesitation. this is not playing out the way I wanted it to.
Speaker: I better step back. I better pause. I better gather more information or skills and come back and address this. But I think that there's something interesting that happens in that, that fear dynamic in that the fear takes over, it creates the greater and greater separation. So that thing that was attainable within reach,
Speaker: now gets further and further and further away the more time passes and it's so hard to jump back in it's so easy to start projects no matter what but finishing them is the harder part by far and uh it's because you start getting in your head and you start realizing oh this is way harder than i was hoping it was going to be or it's not anywhere near my vision then you've got a real problem What do you think that frustration is like? Like what, what prompts that? What causes it? There's always a point where I am in the middle of a project. I'm struggling to see what I think it needs to look like from where the current state of it is.
Speaker: There's the skills gap. Can I do something? Can i I visualize a beautiful topiary and here's the raw material. I lack the skills for getting there. It's not that it's not possible. Even when I cut it in in in half it's still possible for shaping it into something else i i just i lack the skills for knowing how to get there there's i don't know how to build the road map i don't and and so i can be frustrated with the fact that i maybe built a story i did build a story that allowed me to make that first cut and that story got decimated it's it's that my story prior to making that first cut was i can do this
Speaker: My story then afterwards is at the very least could be, oh, I can't do this. Yeah. The, this no longer exists. That's, that's right. It's not changing to something else. That's right. So once you make that, that first step that commits to a specific path, Now I am also constrained within the bounds of whatever material was available prior to that, that that was a part of my what I was still visualizing this was going to look like, is no longer a part of that. Unless unless unless I have the ability to somehow graft the top of this tree back onto it yeah yeah confidently,
Speaker: Sure. Within ah which takes its own form of skills. That's the that's the skill gap for me. Where I started out with it is a frustration of having to hold on to the picture of where we're going without being able to see the progress towards that picture.
Speaker: There is an interesting element of visualization in that we come in with the picture in our mind of what should be so simple because we live with it. It's an intimate understanding. We understand what this would look like from the top, the side, the front, the back. ah All of those things are known. And then so easily that narrative changes and then you have to regroup quickly.
Speaker: And sometimes you don't have the ability to add more material back on. Right. And so it's now not your vision anymore. And and then you've lost all of that momentum because it's like, oh, well, now how do I save this thing? It changes from a creative process to a rescue process.
Speaker: I will argue that there's another problem with the ability to envision things though, in that without the skill set, you have no idea that what you're envisioning is actually possible with the material, with your skills, or even even what it feels like to make it once you're in the process of making it. I think it's very easy to understand theoretically something that you would like to do.
Speaker: And so with that, it's very clear. You live with this thing more, you ruminate, you dream about it. Then you wake up and you start the making and you realize, oh, this is not as cool as it was in my mind. So I think you're doing yourself a disservice by by not knowing what you don't know about allowing yourself to dream about it is just that, oh yeah, that wasn't really possible anyway, for whatever the reasons that we talked about already. But I think the more you do this, the two become closer together it's possible, but there's always this dynamic about a dynamic of a failure or or a lacking of the ability to do the thing that was so clear and pure and honest. And then you've created this whole other thing that's frustration.
Speaker: It's like, what am I doing with this? This is horrible. The relationship to whatever it is that I am pre-visualizing. If you own a house and you've taken on a housing project, sure we all know what this is. and And that's why we have certain kind of shorthand wisdom that says that's along the lines of, you know, the project is straightforward until you open up the walls. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's great. We we have this idea of, I have this one right now.
Speaker: We are, we're, we're sitting in our, we've had a long day, Tiffany and I have, and we're just looking forward to catching our breath and we've been outside working yeah and i come and I sit down and then I hear a dripping in the kitchen. Oh yeah. I'm like, what, what is that dripping coming from? sure So I get up and I look at the sink.
Speaker: Yeah. There's no dripping in the sink. yeah And then I, but I'm, I hear it and my eyes travel over to our Island and coming out of the light fixture. That's the center light fixture oh no over our Island. This is somewhere that nowhere water should be. No, no, it's not supposed to to come out of this. Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. There goes your, your decompression and yes your ah peaceful kingdom. I jump into motion immediately. Remembering a previous instance of something similar to this where in Texas, Tiffany was was traveling and in I'm running point.
Speaker: Very similar things where I'm laying on the couch and then I look up into the ceiling and there's a ah dripping coming from there. Very similar thing. Like where water is coming from spaces, particularly within walls. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: that are susceptible to moisture. Sure. um I immediately understand there is, we we need to arrest this situation. It's not going to take care of itself. yeah Yes. yeah and And the immediate story that jumps to mind for me that I imagine, one, first of all, I'm not happy about this. I don't think anybody's ever really I can confidently speak for the rest of the time and say, yes, nobody's happy about this moment. Something unplanned. Part of that is a knowing that what was I just enrolled into? What's the size of this? sure But my eternal optimism is that is is this story that says, we're going to open this up.
Speaker: We're going to patch it up immediately. And we're going to... there is a problem. yeah I can identify this. I also am pretty savvy, so I can fix it. So there's a cause and a solution. Yes. Yes. So immediately, I mean, going back to the junipers and topiaries is like the speed with which we craft this this arrival point, recognizing here's the departure point. I haven't done anything yet. there's There's something that needs to be done, whether that's a problem or whether that's a a challenge of saying I'm going to create something, um not be thrust into it. Like, but these examples are, I think I opened up the walls two months ago at this point um over our Island.
Speaker: They're still open. and Can I ask you more importantly, is the drip still present or is that no gone? That's the problem. oh Oh, so you did nothing to touch the plumbing. You just opened up the walls and the drip went away. I, um yes. And then no, I'm terrified of what the third option is. here the I made some adjustments and then you you go through the troubleshooting process of trying to figure out where is this coming from, what's happening. yeah And the problem won't replicate itself.
Speaker: it It won't cooperate. yeah yeah It will not do what it's supposed to do. yeah Because my story is that I've now created the optics into being able to see um I'm trying to minimize the amount of work that needs to be done. So right now I've removed the light fixture and there's a six inch hole that I'm sticking.
Speaker: Thank goodness for my phone. I'm sticking my phone up in there. I've got somehow got my hands in there where I've got a light that I'm illuminating. I can see where this is coming from. i I'm diagnosing the problem. So, so we've grabbed We've graduated from from some degree of being a novice. i I know how to diagnose. I know how to see where the problem is yeah emanating from. This brings up the skill sets that we were talking about previously. you have all the skills to be able to know, okay, I need to be able to do some exploration.
Speaker: The surgery is going to happen. I need to see what's going on specifically where so that now I can incorporate those skills so I can fix it. And this goes away and I can get back to relaxing with my wife or whatever. That's right. Yeah. That's right. But if it's not there to greet you, then what do you do? that That is so that that's a great question. Then what do you do? Well, it's not coming. I mean, I can now see the pipe. Okay.
Speaker: I can now trace it to the source, which is our master shower stall. yeah I can see that the drip is not coming from below the subflooring. So it's coming from above.
Speaker: okay So now I know that, okay, it's not it's not at this the level in the kitchen. It's not the hole you've already created. There's a second hole you'll now need to create. i will now So I go upstairs.
Speaker: i I now have a hole above, yeah right behind our shower. Right where the problem now that's right absolutely has to be. Yes. and And I look down and the pipe is that is going through this the subfloor, well, I can see it.
Speaker: Oh, except it doesn't go through straight down through the subfloor. sure It goes down and then 90 degree underneath the shower. Yeah. Yeah. Pan. Yeah. And then it goes down. Yeah. Perfect. And so I know there is something happening between what I can see and what above what I can see below. Yeah. And there's a portion now. Yeah. I'd have no optics on it. So sounds like a third hole is in your future. So, but before I do that, we should also stop. I'm sorry. Yeah. This may be incredibly stressful for the listening audience who maybe don't have the skill set here to like, really, just call a plumber. What they don't know, if I could speak for us, what they don't know is that that is hundreds of dollars just to make the phone call to get somebody out before they've done any hole making or diagnoses that you've done. And there's no guarantee that it's going to get done the fashion or the timeframe or the manner that you would like it done because they have their priorities as well. So to me and you as well, not an option.
Speaker: we're in this far it has now become personal this son of a gun this is gonna get done by your hands right yeah yeah at this so and and there are a couple of other things that have that have happened at this point also which is okay it's originating from our shower we had a soft water filter placed on the shower Just the shower, not the whole house. Exactly. So within each of the, we have we have three baths. We put one of these soft filters on each of those.
Speaker: Oh. So I'm also, to the benefit of of the internet, yeah searching, is there a history of these local soft filters on us a fixture causing some degree of pressure that causes- The pinhole leak. Yes, okay exactly. Okay, sure, whatever, yeah. So I removed that. um Now I'm in the business of changing multiple variables at a time.
Speaker: I remove that. I've got holes so I can observe what's happening. Necessary tactical holes have been created. And now I get a couple of days where there's no leak. It's not there. sure So I'm getting ready to wind things up. Did you really assume that things are just magically done?
Speaker: That's amazing. i'm at this and then I've always been impressed with your confidence, but never more so than that statement right there. And then day three, yeah the the the hope was that that I was hoping was remove the filter and and maybe there was some blowout from the filter ok ah that that was coming and tracing down the line. Yeah, and and makes sense. And then there's no leak. And then day three, here comes the leak again. I'm going fast forward now. i I said it's been two months. yeah We have now, so the leak showed up again. Okay, yeah. Two months later, it has not.
Speaker: there there's There's been no leak whatsoever. Wow. And I still have the holes in my wall. No, because I could assume that because the second that you patch the holes up. the The leak is going to come back. we We, that is, so I'm stuck in this Murphy's law space. You're in holding pattern. Yes. Yes. So, wow so my story for speed, pace, getting this done, getting the problem solved, getting it put to bed, all of that. provision for your family, a safe environment that is free of mold and other problems. Yeah. Like there's a lot of things that you're juggling now. I'm now stuck in this state of limbo and asking the question, like, what do i yeah what do I do now? sure And so ah that is the picture. Like when you say the frustration and and, and when we say like, when do we do things when we like, this is also where I feel I get stuck.
Speaker: yeah and and And there are points where, i mean, there are some furniture projects that I have done where there I need significant just sit and stare time. Yeah, yeah. i'm just where Where I'm playing through scenarios. where and And the thing is is that my ability to sit and stare at the problem, um as simple as that sounds for a lot of people who don't, that's not what's going on. There there is so much more that's going on. And...
Speaker: increasingly the further I get into a project like, like this, like what you just talked about with the audience of saying, why don't you just call a a plumber? Yeah. A professional that has experience and tools. Yeah. That's what realistically, that's what I'm paying someone to do sure is to, to foreshorten right the time of staring at the problem. I'm going to go ahead and throw that into a phrase of anxiety. or worry or frustration, right? Yeah. You want to pay someone to make all of those go away. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Okay.
Speaker: Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, i have the same genetic defect that you do, and I'm not able to call anybody to do those types of making my life better dynamics. Okay. So I don't want to gloss over this. There is great value. I feel of doing the least efficient thing from an outside of an objective standpoint and just sitting with the problem, contemplating it, really spending some time and working the angles. I'll give you an example of a home project that I'm currently doing. So putting in a bathroom in our basement and my my two oldest are going to be having rooms down there with a shared bathroom. So my son is very, very tall. He's over six feet and he's going into high school just now. So I was walking in there and I thought, okay, this is, this is okay. Hi, it's going to be a little cramped because there's a stock that goes fairly low into your living space. So I wasn't going to leave it exposed. It wasn't going be an industrial look. That was not what we're going for, but I was going to you know cover it up. And then I did it and I had a neighbor, he had done a similar renovation to his bathroom.
Speaker: ah Not in the basement, but he is a similar height to what my son is going to be. And I saw he was struggling with the height of this thing. And I was almost done to have everything wrapped up and started drywall and painting. Like I was close to just living with this thing.
Speaker: It wasn't until I saw him i like, oh, I've got to address this. But I had been working on this thing for months and months and months. yeah I've been dreaming about what going to do with this? It wasn't until I saw him, the neighbor, and just, oh, this is not going work. And then it became so clear to me what I had to do. I had to cut that out. i had to modify this. i had to reroute another thing. But now it's so spacious. And it was the obvious choice. And I should have known this months ago. Yeah. But it wasn't until I saw it and I had to live with it and just that new piece of information came forward to me and it's like, oh, I'm so grateful in that that moment happened because my poor son, if he had to duck down around these silly duct works, that would have been so frustrating. And it felt like a failure. I would have felt like a failure.
Speaker: when we talk about going forward and and tackling a challenge, yeah is that inherent narrative of this is a straight line. Oh, no. From yeah here to there. Yeah, it starts off that way. That's a naive statement, and I think. It is. Can I say that with respect? Yeah, it' because what you just there are situations also where we, you like you said, you could have gotten all the way to the finish line. Yeah.
Speaker: And then... Regret it every second of it. And and what is that regret? ah For me, it's two things. yeah it's It is, why didn't I see this before? Yep.
Speaker: Why didn't I, the one you outlined. That's right. There's also this projection of forward regret, which is, do I fix it? Do I actually now do you bet like, and, and so when we were in Texas, um, i I, in the house that we moved into, there was this blank that we had this front room where we had, um, autumn's piano.
Speaker: And it was a very underutilized space, but there's this blank wall. And I looked at this and I said, I want a wall of built-ins to display all of all of my books to to have. I want this to be a creative space. And I'm ah i'm building the story.
Speaker: i'm yeah i'm yeah I'm pre-visualizing what will happen in this space. What does it represent? Some people refer to this as potential, right? You can vision what this is going to be, how our lives are going to become better. Yeah. And there's also a dynamic of ego where it's like, yeah, people are going to ask, oh, who did this? And you're going to say, oh, I i did this yes or whatever, right? Yes. So yeah, I'm with you. Yeah. yeah it it And in that, i you know, to go back to that inherent nature of our an original making impulse is to make a story yeah that gets us to move towards action.
Speaker: yeah um And we do that almost in a cloud of naivete. That's fair. Right. Like it's. and And so whether I'm, you know, the the story of the the the juniper, the leak in the house or these are stories of my constant forgetting that ah ah until I'm in it, I really don't have a full appreciation for what is going to be required. And it's almost, you know, this brings to mind this idea of, you know, um Tiffany's had three kids. um She, you know, we we talk about the nature of forgetting that women have when the the pain and the endurance that's required yeah for going through this is is that there's also something about a benevolence of the forgetting um and remembering all of the highlights and those things. Yeah, So when I'm in this front room and I'm imagining all of these things and what they're going represent, I say, yes, it's a necessary evil. Yeah. It's the cost of doing business. Yes. Whatever. And it gets me to say yes.
Speaker: Yeah. Without that vision, there is no motivation for us to give up evenings and weekends, time with the kids. We just need to have that that driving force to realize, oh yeah, this is totally worth it. Yeah. i sketch out what it's going to look like. I take my measurements. I start laying everything out. Was I correct in assuming that you were in fact, were going to fashion these yourself? You're going to build these? Yeah. Okay. Yes. yes so So this was, I mean, prior to me getting to Red Rocks, yeah Most of my woodworking experience had been in the built-in space, had been in the um screws and fasteners and and substrate, right plywood, yeah um for yeah and and so and did a lot of that work and and loved it. yeah Loved the planning, loved the visualization. Yes, I'm right there with you
Speaker: um And conveniently forget all of the things that I did not love about this. And there was one part where I had i had moved down and conceptualized logistically from from a project management perspective, how I was going to do this. I actually hate that you have to add that into the process, but yes, that's you. I get it. Because my view at each stage of of before making a cut, before getting to a certain point, I have a sub story.
Speaker: And one of the sub stories here is, is that when I slide these, these independent units that are all going to look like a single unit yeah right right yeah into this wall, the tolerance is going to be somewhere in, in yeah a quarter of an inch because I'm going to end up putting, I'm using subst, plywood, but I'm going to put maple facings, sure um, on them. The styles and rails are all going to be real wood. Yeah. Um, also for, for very real pragmatic purposes is is that it doubles the strength of the, of, of this, of each shelf. So love that we're geeking out about yeah. Yes. We've lost about 99% our people, but okay, good.
Speaker: Um, it works so well. I slide the last, um, car case in and it is less than a quarter of an inch. It's perfect. Wow.
Speaker: Good. Yeah. Except for one thing. Yeah. Uh huh. Nothing's ever that perfect. There are four units that I had to assemble. Okay. Four of them are are great. And one of them has warped just enough. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: That the rise on, for me at the very least, I can see the slope on the shelves. sure Tiffany cannot. No, I get it. This is a problem with makers. Yeah. It's because we can never unsee the imperfections. That's right.
Speaker: Nobody else in the world cares and it gets worse because we have a proclivity. We are compelled to point it out to every beating heart that comes and see, oh, did you make that? Yeah, but just don't look here. Don't, yes. Yeah.
Speaker: This is mental. I don't know what is wrong with us, but we can't help ourselves from putting it out. It's yeah crazy. Yeah. It's ah it's almost the, um I need to point out the flaws before you do. um Do you think there's a dynamic of ownership? That's interesting. I do think there is something there. Okay. I did not sleep that night. Because of the imperfection. I i am at a point yeah where i I'm trying and to talk myself into, it's okay. Everything you just said, totally nobody else is going to notice this. It's not that, like there is the the difference between yeah the low point on this shelf and the high point yeah is...
Speaker: ah over a probably 36 inches, there's maybe a quarter to to sure so three sixteenths of an inch of difference. it It doesn't, to the naked eye, it flat. Nobody's going to care about this, yeah.
Speaker: I did not sleep. i I know this feeling intimately and I hate it. So please continue. There's something delightful in not being able to sleep when a solution finds you.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. And when that, when all of a sudden you're like, oh, that might work. Yeah. I have to have to tease this out. So there is something really magical about having a certain dynamic of exhaustion because I'm sure you grappled with this every second after you put it in and noticed it. And you didn't maybe notice it right away, but the second you did, that is your fixation. That is...
Speaker: That is the obsession that you cannot shake. And then you go through dinner and you go through playing the motions of being a family man and this is going to be great. We're fine. Oh, dad, it looks awesome. Whatever. But in the back of your mind, like son of a bitch. And then it keeps you up and you have to go through these things. and No, I can't do this because, and oh, what if I do this? And I'll just rebuild the thing. Like all all these varieties of of problem solving. After you exhaust yourself, there is a dynamic of clarity where the dust settles. You're like, oh yes. Why didn't I think of that earlier? Yes.
Speaker: ah immediately yeah when that happened, when all of a sudden the light bulb goes off, the light in the house has just started breaking through. So it is early in the morning. So you spent all night on this, not hyperbolic, but yeah. Yes. And immediately when that comes up, I am, it's it's almost like ah i'm I go from laying horizontally yeah to being immediately vertical. Shut up. I'm ready to go to and work. And it is, we're going to try this.
Speaker: Now, the interesting thing about all of this also is is that each of these stages, the planning, the project management, all of that, what is happening within me? i am I'm also a risk manager.
Speaker: I'm trying to assess how do i how do I mitigate the risk? Because once I make a decision and I commit to it, once I decide I'm going to to trim the juniper bush, when I make that cut, I am committed and And so am I willing to take on the risks? When I cut into the wall, am I willing to take on the risk that I don't find the leak, that I'm going to also, I'm committing myself to patching it up? if i i It's all of these elements of, these are not the things that are in consideration when we are a novice. These are not the things that we we understand we are signing ourselves up to.
Speaker: And the longer we do these things, we start to change our relationship less to be about the, what am i what's the outcome of this going to be? What's the point of arrival going to be?
Speaker: And much more about, am I committed to doing the things that are going to show up that I'm not aware of? And there's one that I'm very aware of with this. Because the solution here is is that I've got these three units in there. All of them are secured to c cleats against the wall. sure There's a certain level of permanence with that. That's right. yeah i have i can I can remove the cleats associated with this one right and free it up so that I can move it. But what has come to me is how do I get the warp out of this? like Without disassembling the entire thing, which when I assembled it in the garage yeah involved glue and a whole bunch of... There is no...
Speaker: The degree of to do this the right way is either almost I have to rebuild that entire unit. Either i leave it as is right or I attempt to get the warp out of it. Yeah, okay. How would I do that?
Speaker: Well, I also know that right, these are floor to ceiling with about a six inch gap on the on the top. ok So the first thing I do is I run out to my garage where I have a two and a half ton jack. i was going to say a car jack has got to be the solution. And I get out my tape measure.
Speaker: How, what is the starting point for this? It is a, it's like five inches. So it'll just i' barely going to. Yeah. So I run in there and I start putting the protective measure. First of all, can I put protective measures to protect the wall and not sign myself up for other damage? I'm going to have to repair. Not in the same state. yeah I get out the stud finder. Yeah.
Speaker: There's a stud. This all makes perfect sense to me and yeah And, I also know one thing when i do this, is there enough give in the structure to let it move in the material itself? Am I going to take the risk or is this thing going to shift? And I'm going to hear that cracking, the cracking. And, and so I decide I'm going to take the risk. It's worth It is worth Cause I cannot bear to live with the shame or whatever. That's right. Of the imperfection of it.
Speaker: That's right. So, um, I'm at that point, everything's set up yeah and I'm getting ready to use the hydraulic mechanism yeah to apply force. Yeah. I start doing it and there's movement, slow movement, slow movement, and then the pop. Oh, I was hoping that was not going to be part of the story. oh And you you know what happens when you hear the pop is everything falls into place.
Speaker: But now what you know yeah is is that there's a potential secondary problem yeah that I now have signed myself up to. If I could tease this out a little bit more for people that haven't experienced there, there's a moment of great, uh, elation and you see that it's moving in the right direction. And it's as though mountains are moving or you're advancing on a hill or something like there is a great victory.
Speaker: And then the sound comes and it is a dagger to your soul and it is failure. is defeat in that moment because there's this, oh no, what have I just done? And then yeah there's this just pregnant pause of just waiting, not moving.
Speaker: You're holding your breath. Is the roof going to fall down? Do we have to burn the building now? Do I have to get the kids out? Is there going to gas? Like you don't know where this is going to end. And then you're just hoping that it doesn't get any worse. That split second lasts for about four hours in your brain. Yeah. And it's terrifying. Yeah.
Speaker: It's, I mean, again, predicated all on this storytelling function within you yeah of of something has happened. I have enough evidence. Something has happened. I don't know what. And I can fill in all the various gaps sure of it. Like you just said, yeah it could be that that joist that was, I was using for leverage just decided this was my time to, to, to go. And, um, or it could, you know all of the different possibilities. And until I root cause it, until I investigate, until I figure it out, yeah um, it's a mystery. You bet. And, and,
Speaker: It's what am I doing? I'm I'm doing the same thing that I was doing the night before. Sure. I'm I'm I'm asking the question of of can I live with this? Right. Can I if if I can i through the evidence through is my family going to be safe? Have I done something? All of these different pieces. And in this case, the sound did emanate from the the the carcass. you love Yes. OK, good.
Speaker: Good. So it's localized. So there's a ah dynamic of, okay, I can fix this. That's right. It is in place now. I secure the cleats again, yeahp and then I get down to the investigation. And and this is one of those happy accidents where um there was in the dado, the groove that I had done for the shelves themselves, The space you've created for the shelf to fit into. fit in. yeah There was just one little hang up of that shelf itself, which might have actually been causing the entire warping itself. Just this small... There's a good chance that's what had popped.
Speaker: Amazing. And things fell into place. Oh, wow. I have a couple of... This is how chiropractors make their living, by the Yes, yes. I'm going to twist you in all manner of ways and things will just fall into place.
Speaker: Lots of popping. Don't worry about it. It'll be fine. Just drink lots of water. That's right. um But it's that is, for me, when I then take a step back, Similar to what you said, when you when when you actually did the work to make the space within the bathroom, yeah there is something about getting to observe the end product, but also knowing that the struggle was worth it.
Speaker: Oh, so true. I did not regret losing the sleep that night. I did not, nothing about that was front of mind. The victory of actually choosing, it was worth it to go through that. And the sleep you're going to get because of that piece is going to be so much better. Yes.
Speaker: Which just evokes so much for me. Half of the time when I'm doing the sitting and staring after I've hit some inherent roadblock is doing this mental calculus.
Speaker: What is the struggle worth? and we would never frame it in those words no but there's this drive like yeah that doesn't feel right i gotta do something i have no idea what it is but i've got to do i can't live with this so you do then start laying out well i could start over i could modify i could forget this crazy experience altogether and give up try something else but i think that's less common uh or what's the first option or what's the fourth option pardon me what is the last option with that i mean is it just giving it up you I think that's the part I feel this conversation going towards yeah is that part, the giving up and the surrender. The the giving up, there's there's something about when we, that's what I did with the the juniper.
Speaker: ah yeah Why did I do that? i There was no inherent path forward that I could see. right there's And yet that doesn't change the fact that there was something that could have been done. course. But it wasn't accessible to you at the moment. That's right. And that's huge. That's right. And so I think i think that's that's where the gap really starts to take on meaning for me. Where I don't have even the tools the the to abide the struggle. Yeah. Oftentimes what I see is so we steal from ourselves the opportunity for embracing the struggle of acquiring the tools. Yeah. It's so hard.
Speaker: I see this in my students a lot, especially in their first semester or two, where they're unwilling to give in to that. And they're, no, i've I've got to do it now. It's got to be done. There's a deadline. There's, you know, whatever. It's not to my vision.
Speaker: yeah there's a lot of meaningful reasons from that perspective but i think that they're missing the point altogether which is the reason this is hard is because it's supposed to be hard and embracing that difficulty is the toughest thing that you're to learn while we're together I heard this NPR thing a long time ago, with and I'm dating myself, but when there was ah a Wii console system where you would actually get up and do motions to play games and sports. Yes, we still have it.
Speaker: You do? Okay, great. I don't know if we've talked about it on this program, but we've had three and I loved it. Yeah. And i saw kids- Did you guys have the board also? We had two of those. Yes. Yeah. yeah um I loved it because I loved seeing my kids being active and the bowling and all that stuff. they were It was great. And then it was not a solid state system, so that disc is always spinning- yeah And so what they would do is we'll just pause the game.
Speaker: We'll go and eat, we'll go to bed. We'll come back three weeks from now. Yes. And then they, no surprise. They just burn out. Yeah. So anyway, I wish we'd get it back. Anyway, the point of this, there's this woman on NPR who's talking about her daughter who, uh, was crushing it on Wii tennis.
Speaker: Right. Okay. you know where go oh yeah And so she was talking about, oh my gosh, I'm exhausted. I've been playing this all the time. And then she said, I think I'm going to go play with my friend, whatever, outside with our rackets. And she thought that that success skill was going to translate into the real world.
Speaker: And it's just like, it the world doesn't work that way. But I think there's a dynamic of conditioning that we all receive that's just like, oh, it shouldn't be this hard. And I think there's a lot of technological advances and other things that would kind of prime us to believe that. But the reality is, is that you've got to put in the time. You've got to you've got to find in the frustration and you've got to sometimes realize when the struggle is not worth the effort and surrendering to the thing and pivoting. We have to develop a language. How I would equate this is, is that when a three-year-old wants a two-year or three-year-old wants a cookie yeah and they want it so bad.
Speaker: Sure. The only thing in their mind that will make them happy is having that thing. Sure. Singular focus. That's right. They are convinced of it. There is no talking them down from that. The rationale goes away. The only rationale and the only language that exists for conveying to this person who has the power is I'm going to throw a temper tantrum. Because it means so much to me. That's this thing that I desperately want. Why are you giving me such a hassle? I'm so convinced this is the only thing.
Speaker: I only have eyes for you, Cookie. and Yeah. And we do the same things to ourselves. Unless you understand the language of the tools, unless you understand the limits, the capabilities, the fullness of those, it is hard to learn a new language. yeah I mean, when we go back to this three-year-old, it says the language that they have is ah is a throwing a temper tantrum.
Speaker: What they have to learn is the struggle of how to convey things. How to build a case for why 30 minutes before dinner, I want that cookie and I only want that cookie and I'm going to convince you to it. like and And then learning the things within themselves that says, oh, there's actually values within myself that says maybe I can manage some impulse control. And and we can talk about all the ways that you know these external judgments or norms, ah etiquette, ways of doing things can also squelch creativity itself.
Speaker: But there is something about learning the language of navigating the world. And when we talk about the creativity yeah that oftentimes that we see, the the the pre-visualization of what we want to create and where what our point of departure is, what you're talking about with oils,
Speaker: We sometimes fail to understand that we're entering a new world. That's it. A world that has its own language, that has its own physics almost attached to it. and I like that a lot. Yeah. and And do we want to inhabit that world? and And more and more, when I talk to people, what I know for myself is the answer is yes. But in order to do that, I need to adopt some degree of humility. This is the hardest thing to learn and i mean and to accept. Yes. and The pictures we have, we have we we mentioned two things here and and this is going to be forced, but I have to force it because ah i love both these movies. Oh yeah, we got to do it. So picture number one for this is The Karate Kid, which I think we have talked about ah before, you or at least we've alluded to some aspect of it, but the relationship between Daniel-san and Mr. Miyagi and one being the master and one being the apprentice. Yeah. The phrases that are most referenced, wax on, wax off. yep
Speaker: yeah I mean, what is that picture demonstrating to us is someone who is fluent in a language and knows how to transfer that fluency to someone else without them knowing it.
Speaker: That is the real genius of the whole thing. There's that really cool scene where Daniel had had enough of the chores, which is the lens that he saw all these things is happening through. And then when Mr. Miyagi showed him through that last lesson about blocking this punch and all of the tools were just there for him.
Speaker: And yes, mostly this is music movie magic, but it was so fantastic. I wanted to buy into it as did every kid who saw that. But, uh, did you start doing a lot of chores for your mom after that? And she's like, and that's why karate kid was really popular with parents is like, it's really funny. We're, we're diluting our children into doing yeah these chores. I had done more chores than Daniel had ever done my entire life leading up to yes the original screening of that. Uh, I still could not block a punch to save my life. So no, i don't think there was any kind of value for for me. Super gluing stuff around the house as it breaks. Yeah. But the moment of just recognizing, oh my gosh, I learned all these things that i i knew I wanted to learn, but it wasn't presented directly. It was this whole narrative about...
Speaker: Oh, I could take care of this. I can help you first do these other things. Like that was huge. And it took all of the thing that i think most of us struggle with is no, I just need to learn this right now. Just give it to me right now. Eliminate the gap.
Speaker: yeah like like that that's Yeah. That is that. I think that's the addiction that oftentimes we have is is that we're like, well, here's my point of departure. I want to immediately be at the point of arrival. I want. Yes. I want to see the guitar. Yeah. yeah I want to imagine myself on stage to, yeah you know, Wembley stadium and thousands of roaring fans, whatever gets me excited.
Speaker: And then in a matrix style, you plug it into the back of my head and just download all the information. yeah And then i I'm able to to raise my hand and say, ah I got this. Yeah. I I'm ready to go. Yeah.
Speaker: Put me in coach. I'm ready to play. I knew nothing yesterday, but here I am. The desire for experiencing those things never goes away. The resolve, the reward. The being on there and experiencing that. What increasingly starts showing up is, man, do I actually love the struggle. Man, do I love staying up all night, yeah thinking through it, and then getting the experience of it working out. The satisfaction that we we have got to talk about, the satisfaction that you had in that moment when you saw the Jack not failing, like everything kind of came into place. That is so rewarding in ways that nobody else but you will experience.
Speaker: Right. You're telling me, I get it. I've had those experiences as well. I can sympathize and empathize for both of those points, but people that are like, yeah, why don't you just leave it? This conversation is lost on those good people of the world, but it's so powerful when you're able to correct that, that direction. thrash in the gap a little bit thrashing the gap yeah and and that thrashing in the gap, I can only attribute the satisfaction to the degree of thrashing, to the degree of like, just sitting there holding my temples saying like, what? am I going to do? I cannot find peace yeah in knowing that this thing is not correct. It's not right. I don't know how to get there. And then that build that like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And then the build, the relief that comes, the satisfaction that comes with that. yes But
Speaker: I think this is the part that that then what happens when gaps do actually start closing, where that happens and the next time, the very first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to break out to the hydraulic jack and I'm going to be like, okay, we know how to fix this.
Speaker: And now it's just a part of the routine of the of the playbook. A hundred percent. ah Granted, I would agree with this. I would also argue, however, there is a recognition of, oh, I had better check this because this other thing happened to me last time because I didn't check for this one area where it could come out of square or whatever. Right. So I think that there is this knowledge base that you've established that you've earned.
Speaker: Right. And then you go through these things it's like, yeah, this becomes much easier for me. Yeah. And there's no more mystery. Right. Yes. or Or the mysteries become minimized. you I mean, I just heard you say two things in tandem.
Speaker: Yeah. It becomes easy for me and the mystery is minimized. Yeah. And when when things become easy and the mystery is minimized, I think we start approximating it becoming a job. Oh, that's funny. Oh, interesting. and It's, there's something about now. Yeah, I can do this, but it stops being art.
Speaker: It's start. I kind of know the path now and I know how to maybe teach it to other people, but now teaching it to other people is a different challenge. Sure.
Speaker: yeah but But doing it for myself, um it doesn't hold the same sway. And what is that? i i I'm going to say it's it's the absence of the struggle. and And what we see and this is what in in our in our pre-planning, when we look at individuals like Picasso. This a perfect example. We start talking about his blue period and his red period and yeah the the different periods. I think it's for for me, the part that really gives me life and thinking through that is this idea of we're getting a glimpse at the periods of struggle. There's something there.
Speaker: inside of him that wants to come out and he's recognizing the gap and he sticks with it until that gap starts to close enough where the struggle disappears and he switches. And because because the work becomes known that's right somewhat boring and there's no mystery yes and so this is why artists have to reinvent and try other things and i brought this up with uh with moby before but every one of his albums is unique and it doesn't sound like any kind of through line at all you know it's all moby but yeah this album is dramatically different from the very next one because he's like yeah that's kind of out of my system now yeah i want to try this new thing that's hard it challenges me And Picasso is the exact same way. I mean, every artist that we've ever ventured to speak about as a society now has gone through the same problem. It's like, yeah, this is just boring now.
Speaker: I heard you say have gone through the same problem. Process. Process. Okay, good. Yeah. Because I think that's that's the question is, this is common. It should be. When somebody gets to a point where they figured it out, there's a very clear path on what you do with it now. And that is to commercialize it. It is, you've you've got this thing figured out. It's repeatable.
Speaker: It's predictable. yeah And so now we're going to repeat it and and and make it predictable If there's an audience for them If there's an audience, right? So the model for this that we oftentimes see is and and I, I, this comes to life to me in a way, a painter who, why is there such a difference between selling the original? Oh, yeah. And then Prince. Yeah. And, and i mean, when we talk about the the difference in pricing, it is multiple orders of magnitude different. You know, it's I have one artist that she does highly realistic paintings um that involve light in a way that I think would shame Thomas Kinkade. And, I mean, it's just... phenomenal work. The difference between her selling a similarly sized print of 20 by 30 versus what the original was, yeah you're talking the difference between $120 and $12,000.
Speaker: ah twelve thousand dollars yeah and And why do we have a market for that? Why is there something about the the original? sure Because it has the fingerprints of struggle embedded into it. Sure.
Speaker: We have a fascination with with our technological capabilities now of looking at Da Vinci paintings and that look beneath the yeah the sort of the oil. And you see all of the mistakes, the the strokes that that he had to find a way to remove from the canvas or to cover up. or like There's a messiness to it. That's right.
Speaker: and And there's something i think I think why this is so important for us in our humanity is because so much in this world that we talk about, that we highlight, that we look at is is as if a gap doesn't exist.
Speaker: It's we we highlight the the high points. We highlight even the abject failures, those people who dumped out. But all of the in between, the struggle, the living in the gap, we make it sound like, well, don't tell us any of those things. Just show us the end product. That betrays something about us that we've forgotten. That the reason we go through periods, the reasons things become a job, and that's not to denigrate those because there is something about being able to put food on the table. But what I think we all inherently also know is is that we spend so much time trying to get to the thing that is repeatable, to arrive.
Speaker: And for most people that I talk to, I ask them, oh, what are you going to do when you arrive? And that's when they start lighting up again. They start talking about all the things that if I could get this song, if I could make it, if I could, then I'll have some stability, some structure, some income, some resources.
Speaker: And here's what I would do next. And almost without fail, when you get past the the concept of how people would get relief by taking six months and going living on a beach for a while, you ask the question, what do you do after that?
Speaker: And almost without fail, it's some form of struggle. i would I would go and explore the hobbies that I never had the time for. I would go like i'd go repair those relationships. I'd go do all of the things that are indicative of leaning into struggle, leaning into gaps where things haven't arrived and wrestle with those.
Speaker: And i think what we have to ask ourselves is when we are getting excited about something, And when we are visualizing what it means to arrive, do we have the stomach for knowing that the bulk of the time is going to be spent in that gap and that we want to be there? Or do we forget by borrowing myths, lies that says that if I don't, if I try something and it's not going the right way, if I cut the the juniper and then it doesn't go that way, do I abandon it?
Speaker: or Or do I, in the process of making a bureau and I'm at the very end and I'm using the router yeah oh yeah and and I am literally at the last cut ye and that momentary lapse of not staying present And I let it run and and it cuts through. um and there's not a way, I'm not going to paste sawdust back onto this thing. good Am I going to be satisfied and say, I'll make it work and and I'll know that it's not
Speaker: sound or do I sit there and so and lean into the struggle of what do I do in that moment and finally decide I'm going to go back. I'm going to recut the entire thing.
Speaker: And and i'm i will be the I will be the only one who knows it, but it's worth it Because it's honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. It reflects me. Yeah. I have this conversation over my years with carpenters a lot of times, and I have all the respect in the world for carpenters. And there's all there's all variety of carpenters, right? Most of them are kind of shocked at the the level of detail and the efforts I will make to get everything so exact, so precise, And very sincere, very honest to you what my vision is.
Speaker: And in the carpentry world is, oh my gosh, it's taking so much time. Just throw this thing in there. We'll caulk it. We'll paint over it. it Call it done. Just nail another board in there. we got to move on. And... It's not that one way is right or wrong. I just couldn't live with it myself with that proposal because it just seems like I'm just great. I'm pushing the problem down the field a bit. I know it's going to resurface at some point. I'm going to have to account for that. But conversely, they couldn't live with what I would do, which is going to cost them so much more time. And time means that they can't go into the next job.
Speaker: to you know provide and do whatever like so there's there's validity in both ends but i think that this is the best example that i've found of where the comfort lies in both of these fields because there's different motivations and the fact that i'm making work that is my own my vision There's not a designer that I have to deal with. Right. That comes through in a very linear way because I've closed the gap, because I understand what it takes.
Speaker: Uh, the second I envision it, I know every step of the way. So I do the project management stuff that you're talking about. Uh, there are no spreadsheets involved for me though, by choice. Um, and so for me, I just, I can't do anything that would compromise the integrity of it. And so, um, so I think there's just trade-offs in these, these realms again, yeah because of what's motivating. you Yeah. The trade-offs are hard for for part of the reason I think you just said, which is one of the things we're talking about is the nature of our relationship to to the outcome, to what we want, and also our relationship to what do we do with that that experience of standing in the gap. In in one respect, carpenters have varying other... Their ranking of the priorities from a time and resource and energy
Speaker: is different because of the nature of what they're what they're doing, what they're trying to accomplish and how they're trying to accomplish. And it's very personal. um the But the trade-offs become problematic when we start assigning how people ought to be standing in the gap.
Speaker: Sometimes what we don't recognize is that that the reasons we want to do something is going back to our first episode. We want to do it because there's something inside that must come out. We want we want to challenge ourselves. We want we want to express.
Speaker: There's something also about us understanding that being in the gap is hard. And so we look for others who have navigated that gap. And we we look for going back to Miyagi. He's been in that gap. He's been there before. He knows how to apprentice. Then there's this group that, and there's something about us as humans that starts to dictate that how you ought to be when you are in the gap. Yeah, that never works.
Speaker: and And that the reason you should be in that gap in this specific way is has to do with the exclusivity of whether or not you are paying your dues or appreciating it in the right ways. And and for me, there's there's a half truth to that. There is something about earning your stripes, about surrendering and submitting to being in the gap. But there's also the extreme version of when we start policing that because our goal is to exclude, our goal is to feed our own egos or to thump our own chest. And and I think that that's something that regardless of whether that's something that's happening outside of ourselves, I do think there is something that when we enjoin in some activity
Speaker: Where we are saying we want to become a painter, we want to do woodworking, we want to make a project, we want is is that sometimes we are doing that or sometimes what sneaks up on us is we're doing that because we think it's going to deliver us validity, worthiness.
Speaker: and i And I talk to many people about this who who seek fame um and they use a tool like a personal expression. And then they they also talk about the ways that they get lost in pursuing the fame, pursuing the outcome. And the cost is is this thing that at some point did actually bring them joy.
Speaker: Being in the struggle actually did bring them some joy. And where did they lose that? And and i this is I think this is where what we're talking about with Picasso and the return. you know One of the things that I feel we are constantly asked is not how we're finding ways of being comfortable or or finding making things more convenient. It is how are we then turning towards seeking the next gap, the next struggle the and leaning into that. i think
Speaker: this was where you're going to go a little bit earlier, but I think that the important part of the inviting in that gap conversation, it only really happens with people that have pushed through the initial gap of whatever it is that you've done on your own. And i think that that's a really easy conversation for people to realize. And they've struggled, they've gone through, they've they've pursued an outcome that is acceptable to them for whatever reason that would entail. And then they seek going through it again in a different form.
Speaker: because they know that there's value on the other side of that. And I think the people that don't ever make it out of the gap would never want to go to another gap because it's like, yeah, this is hard work. I look at i haven't gotten through this last thing.
Speaker: And even if they don't have the language to express that, the feelings are there. The feelings are sincere and they're telling of where you're at with this. But I think this is all indicative of where people need to find. And for a bunch of reasons, recognition, fame is one of those tools and just success of getting past it. And so I think that that gap serves a much bigger purpose than people allow for and maybe don't have the recognition of of acknowledging, oh yeah, this thing was really hard, but oh my gosh, I got so good because I did that really hard thing. And I think that's a hard conversation for people to have. If you've already done it, there's no conversation because they just know that it's inevitable.
Speaker: when I think of a project that I want to do is is that I'm projecting onto the future what will make me happy, right? Like some some idea of this will make me happy.
Speaker: and And what I fail to understand is is that the version of myself that's projecting onto that that future version is not going to be there any longer. It's it's my by going through the struggle, by going through and sitting in the gap,
Speaker: I'm being changed. I'm being transformed to have different preferences. And that's what I heard you essentially say is, is that without the, without the surrendering to that process of being changed, of being molded into something new, you don't necessarily get the change in preferences, the change in knowledge that's necessary to now assess everything that you went through through a different lens.
Speaker: If you quit, if you abandon or dump out of in the middle of the gap, you are still subject to the preferences and knowledge of that previous version of yourself. And and that person is ill-equipped. to really even know what it means to express and everything that goes into that and everything.
Speaker: And that's, I mean, going back to the picture with the hydraulics and fixing the that version of me um is different. um And and there's there's an out there's this outstanding question that i I feel that we're confronting here on what it means to be human, right? Like this topic here of like, what does this tell us about what it means to be human?
Speaker: We're we are meant to struggle. What else have we been talking about? that's Yes, that's on the nose, but i don't I think so many of us don't appreciate that because we live in a world that has equated struggle to bad.
Speaker: A lot of us are indoctrinated with highlight reels all the time. And so, as you talked about, you see the people top of the mountain, you see people possibly from where they came from, but you're not with those people for the day-to-day and the sacrifice and the, yeah, today really sucked moments.
Speaker: And then you just see the the hands above the head and screaming, Adrian or whatever. Right. And, um, and it's, it's hard because it's not, it's not the full picture. Yeah. And it's, it's dishonest of us to expect for us to just live from one highlight to another. Yeah. And this is the way you avoid it. You have to go through these things and recognize there's going to be time between that highlight and this highlight Have you seen the preview for the ah Sylvester Stallone biopic? He just said Adrian. Yeah, of course. yes it's I think the title of it, and we'll check this in the show notes and make sure, but I think the title is I Am Rocky. And it and it is it is the story of Sylvester Stallone's struggle huh to convince studio executives that okay there's nobody else that can play. They wanted him.
Speaker: his screenplay. They want to make it. I'm very familiar with the story. Yeah. that's It's amazing. And he refused to compromise on it. And he has been so forthcoming with just such kind of grace and hindsight. He's just like, listen, I could have sold it and made a huge payday. Yeah. And that would have felt good in the moment, but I would have regretted it every day of my life after the fact. i'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker: And then finding a director was also a challenge. And he's fine, I'll just direct a thing. He wrote the whole script in a weekend. Yes. This is amazing. Yes. Okay. Yeah. All right. Cool. Is it all just about the Rocky narrative or does it get into his darker side of making other type of movies? No, I think it's all the Rocky. Okay. All right. So it is, yeah, it's interesting is again, we lionize those stories because of, of we have the, the marquee, the, the name and lights afterwards. I,
Speaker: I would encourage all of us, I would encourage myself to to remember that like that level of conviction, that level of knowing is like what he said, like it was worth it.
Speaker: that That there's something about that that is that is contrary to this, a lot of the very cliche things that we that we even wrap ourselves in that that is is still outcome driven, that is still...
Speaker: um trying to avoid the gap. It's it's it's almost like this, well, if i if i can prove, if I can somehow transport myself in the future and see that this will eventually be worth it, well, then I'll submit to the gap. And I think what we, the encouragement for myself and and for all of us is is the gap is is worth it because we are makers, because we want to express, because we want to challenge ourselves and learn about it because we want to become those people that see the world differently and we don't get there without submitting to the struggle in sometimes sometimes when we submit to the struggle like in in Sylvester Stallone's case his realization of getting to the other side and realizing of what he went through also comes with the rewards
Speaker: What we have to ask ourselves is remove the rewards, remove the out that those things. And is this a version of myself that i I still want to get a glimpse of? I still want to experience what it's like to be that person.
Speaker: My answer to that is on some things, yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's a good qualifier. On some things, no. When it comes to Juniper's, the answer is no. um Sure. When I experience something that's calling to me and saying, i i really want to participate in this activity or to do this thing.
Speaker: That the prevailing wisdom that this thing will make me happy is is not it. it is It is wrestling with it. And it is wrestling with it. It's finding me, myself, fully dejected and despairing when it's not going the way that I want it to. that happens. And staying up late at night. And so that I can experience the euphoria, the um wonder of a solution finding me, that the solution works. But I really enjoy the aha moment. I really enjoy making the connections that, oh, this could work and experimenting further and stepping into that new gap.
Speaker: That's where I want to live more and more frequently in in every area. in in In making relationships and in interacting with people is is is recognizing that, yeah, it's it's here. It's happening right now.
Speaker: and and And I can choose to be present with that. Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together.
Speaker: If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations. And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface-level advice, subscribe to our Kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com.
Speaker: Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands. And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame.
Speaker: Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.
