Transcript
Speaker: I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome GoodPing. This whole thing is uncertain. Making is reminding ourselves we don't control anything about the future. We want to develop some dance with crazy. And that's not to say that stability and structure isn't good. We need that too. But in the balance, when that starts taking over, I keep the ukulele, I keep the drums, I keep the pottery, I keep the workshop. All of these pieces, they are my totems to remembering. I'm a little crazy and I want to be crazy more often.
Speaker: I'm reminded of people that are would never call themselves artists, but you go to their home and you have a meal and oh my gosh, the pageantry here, the discipline to study, to experiment, to explore, and also wanting to make sure that people are enjoying themselves in that moment is pretty fantastic. And why on earth isn't that?
Speaker: creative why is that not an expression of their gifts and sharing that with people and so and you see this you could fill in the blank at every walk i think there are mechanics that are also very artfully skilled and they are the people that other mechanics call when there's a problem like hey i can't what do you do about this like oh have you tried the thing like okay what what's the thing i don't know what you're talking about so it's on all walks That is one of the areas where I feel that that we have tried to highlight by saying we are all makers is is that that that construct itself of makers is ah this label that we we are saying we need to claim that.
Speaker: We need to claim I'm a maker. When do I get to claim I am something? And in the mechanic perspective, of of of the guy who who in his garage is tinkering and it has a side project right the restoration of a important vehicle that's right yeah oftentimes it's not you know it's not going to say i'm a mechanic There's something that that separates that. Or the example you said of inviting people into our house and where you said even trying to make them feel a certain way, welcome the radical hospitality, creating an experience. And the means for creating that experience is going to be, I'm going to put effort into making this meal from scratch.
Speaker: what they Would they define themselves as a a chef? Would they define themselves as a as a um as a project manager? Would they define themselves as a ah a a party planner? like We don't reach for those things to to to make this claim. I am this. And I think that sometimes...
Speaker: There's something about that itself that that gets to this identity aspect of what am I? What what what am i in light of what I do? I think the 15 minutes I promised our listeners just got stripped away. This is going to be a much longer conversation. Yes. Yes. Yes. In the context of, I'll share my my examples. ah you You know this. Everybody else knows this that's close to me. is i And we've we've alluded to this.
Speaker: I do not suffer from that from from failing to give myself permission to pursue whatever new hobby, whatever new interest. I'm aggressively nodding my head in agreement. Yes. I know this of you. And, and so. Candle making has not made your list yet though, just to be clear. We've, we've made candles before. Oh shoot. Okay. Yes. I was going to try to call you. there was a, there was a, I think a Thanksgiving where we had, we hosted here and we made candles and I, ah we, the dipping yeah of the candles. The wick. yeah The rolling them on glass. Sure. To, to make them more uniform. All like. Yeah. All of those things is, ah and and the reason I bring this up is because if we cataloged the different things ah that I've done over time, but that I no longer do. Yeah. Does that give me the, we we could say the right, the ability to label myself, to define my identity by those things. In the way that the reason we are able to say you are a mechanic is because it has some longitudinal aspect to that. It's a language everybody recognizes. It's a thing that's very easily tangible, but also, gosh, I'm trying to think of a word that is not identifiable, but identifiable would be the word.
Speaker: You fix things. It's a vehicle that you fix. Mechanic. That's great. But there's so much more to it. There's so much more to it. and And if I'm a a mechanic for a period of time and then I stop doing that. That's a great question. And then I come back to it later on or I leave it for a period of time.
Speaker: Am I still a mechanic? I may not perceive that I am making anything right now. the part but But what we're trying to remind us is is that we are. We are, regardless of whether you can perceive it or whether other people can perceive it, we are doing this right now.
Speaker: Now, we may go through seasons, periods of greater intensity where we convince ourselves, where I convince myself, I am a maker. i we i have If we catalog... I went through a period of time where our last conversation, we talked about building the built-ins. Yep. Oh, yeah. Yeah. and And then I went through a period maybe of a year and a half before I built anything again. Sure. If I said that I was a carpenter for that period of time, did I stop being a carpenter? Yeah. umm
Speaker: While I was homebrewing at that point and picking up like and learning how to homebrew, um when when I stopped doing that and I started doing coffee roasting- and doing those, which is what I'm doing right now. that's one And leather craft and leather leather work right now. yeah um Woodworking, um ceramics. so like Do forego the right yeah to label myself as i I do all of these things? So what is it about not even just the surface level of wanting to to believe that I can say i am a woodworker, I am a photographer? right I am a coffee roaster. i like When do I get to claim that for myself? yeah
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. When is it disingenuous for myself to make that claim when there are others out there who I believe have a greater entitlement to say that this is what I am and you don't get to call yourself this because you you would undermine what that what it means to be that. Yeah.
Speaker: I have an example of this as well. Growing up in California, there were a couple of expectations, one of which is that, oh, you must be a surfer. And a lot of people don't realize that California water is not warm enough to be surfing most of the year.
Speaker: Southern California, you have a better sense of it, but there are some legitimately hypothermic danger positions where surfing is just not an option. I say this because I've always been intrigued with it. I've tried, I've done it, but um to call myself a surfer would be disrespectful to actual surfers around the globe. And I'm okay with that.
Speaker: I know that there are people, like you're saying, super good. You know that that is their identity at whatever the thing is. And there's no question about, yeah, you could own that title. I am not there with surfing and I'm okay with that. And I think everybody else would be in agreement. We're not going to call Jeremy. We'll call Jeremy many things. A surfer is not one of them.
Speaker: I would argue you've invested a lot more time and energy and research and experimentation into all the things you've listed and the five or six that you haven't that I know about. i think that you can claim that comfortably. It comes back to even this, the nature of the labels itself and what that represents. and And when I have interacted with enough people like some of those guys, the surfers who are out there on a daily basis, who like they live it, they live it and breathe it. Those guys that have reached a level of maturity and wisdom in that domain, I i by and large, there might be some that are like highly protective of that.
Speaker: But understand that the label or the apportionment of that label to whether or not you're worthy or not does not detract from their relationship to surfing. In fact, some of them will largely say, stake your claim. Yeah. You're out here. you do You're out here. Why aren't you? Call yourself a surfer. Yeah. Own it. yeah and and think and And the reason I bring this up is i i think you and I would be the same thing is is that part of of when I'm working with coaching anybody who's new at something, who who is stuck in this nature of, I cannot claim this until I reach this certain level, has this naive wisdom attached to it that is, is I think we've used the phrase here, and and or maybe I'm just using this phrase all the time, which is you know half truth,
Speaker: whole lie, right? Like it's the half truth component points at something that if you get stuck in this either or black or white, we've missed the point.
Speaker: The effort is really the thing, but the effort I think is easier to find once the desire has ah has been given the space to explore. And I think if you found something, if you're hooked on it, you're going to find the energy. You're going to sacrifice sleep. You're going to sacrifice other activities to just dig in and do the thing so that from that, maybe it is more comfortable to recognize yourself as that. Everybody who's been doing something for a prolonged period of time that involves some degree of transferring that skill has seen more people come and go than... i mean, they that's a great you we see the pattern of people picking it up, realizing it's not for them, moving on.
Speaker: yeah That's one story. Seeing people pick it up, realize this is a lot more, and their their path to getting towards proficiency or is going to be very different.
Speaker: And some will accelerate down that path and get to some degree of mastery or competence faster than others. what what if but But people who have been doing this long enough have also seen enough people that says there is no there is no defined path that says you go you start here to there. Now, you you and I have both been involved in higher education long enough that we understand there's some degree of core training that if you are going to be calling yourself something professionally. Yeah. And and and maybe that's where I'd really like us to draw a line that says part of this conversation feels like it's the bleeding over of professional. Yeah.
Speaker: In its most bare bones, defining professionalism as getting paid for doing something. It's an external recognition, right? Yes. Yes. Versus the amateur status, which is for the love of, yeah for the sake of. And when we remind ourselves of that, we almost have created this dichotomy that says, well, when you get paid for it, then you can call yourself this thing. And I'm not there yet.
Speaker: That's right. And i'm going to ah I'm just going to say, I i call bullshit on that. i Agreed. Could not agree more emphatically. Yeah. the importance for that as part of our human condition about distinguishing between threat and safety, all those things so important where in the extreme, those are also the very things that do not deliver the other aspects of our human condition that are very important.
Speaker: Belonging, community, connection, all of those pieces are undermined by this superficial fight for who gets to call themselves a mechanic and who does not. And and again, I will point to the people that I believe, that that most of the people that I believe and that I hold are true masters who don't call themselves masters of the space. They have an aversion to that word itself, but are actually masters who are wisdom holders, who have reached the highest levels. They're unbothered. Yeah. This is an argument that takes place at at a level yeah where there is there's a purity politics involved in this.
Speaker: It's a very black and white conversation. Like you either are this or you are not. And is there money exchanging hands? And that kills 100% of what drew the person to doing it to begin with.
Speaker: And so it's an external construct. I know that's a very cliche thing to say now, but it's it just squelches. It's... cuts down the exploration piece of continuing that thing or doing anything else another exploration is like now i'm just going to get beaten up by this guy verbally question for you though so we were talking about the the draw to explore new things and maybe you weren't thinking about in my head i jumped to having this new shiny obstacle
Speaker: this thing is a draw. That's an amazing thing. And I think that not everybody pursues that, which I i find is very sad, but also they have their own reasons. So it is what it is. But what what do you think what do you think causes that? What do you think people that are happy or satisfied in the work or activities that they're currently doing, why will they go into something that's unknown and then start spending all of their waking hours and energy and watching videos on this and researching what people have done before them. How do I get involved with this? What do you think that's all about?
Speaker: You talked about kind of that this new thing. Yeah, the novelty of it right? Yeah. and And getting down the learning curve on something that's new, where you are studying foundational principles, where you are getting exposed to the topic, ah it we move down that portion of the learning curve typically faster.
Speaker: ah general principles, seeing the world in a different way, learning how to appraise who I am relative to this new thing. That's fun.
Speaker: Yeah. It's fun testing yourself. It's There's an excitement it's dynamic, right? It feels expansive. It feels like there's awe and wonder. And I think one of the things that we're going to talk about to help bring this to life is the nature of seasons themselves, right?
Speaker: We all understand that feeling of coming through the fallowness of winter where things have been contracted and small and and we've got to, at times, grueling. and that first bit of spring starts showing and it feels like oh the excitement's getting there the new the new growth is coming and we enjoy that we feel like there's more movement and inertia and life is springing forth we love that and and then the cultivating that the preparation work the it feels formative
Speaker: And, and, and then we get through, we we get through that into the longer months where there's a little bit more heat. You have to nurture things. You got to keep it a alive. It's this thing is ripening and there are pet, there's pestilence and things that are now threatening it from getting to a point where we get to yield the harvest.
Speaker: And we get to experience and enjoy the first fruits and the fruits of that labor. Yeah, the blossoming of that. And then there is a period of fallowness again. And I and i and i think one of the reasons why...
Speaker: sometimes we jump, sometimes I've jumped to that next new thing is is that I don't want to go into that period of of fallowness where coming down the learning curve, um is it's still progressing, but it's a much slower rate. And I don't get to witness and perceive the joy the volume of joy that it was like in those first few months where everything's new and everything is fascinating. And it's like, this is going to be this, it's like freshman psych where everything, i everything that I look through is I'm diagnosing everything. And this, there's so much love here.
Speaker: um And I think this is the part where going back to where we started in terms of the half truth of being exposed to a new topic. We have this phrase of, you know, I know enough to be dangerous. I'm familiar with that. What is the danger? The danger is is it that you haven't been involved with this thing long enough to really understand where it could go sideways sure for where you could potentially, even in your newness, ah in, in, in, in being welcomed into this new space you don't even know how to wield the tools in a way where you're not making it more dangerous for the people around you right like it's it's the equivalent of of taking for me ah
Speaker: Intro to Woodworking. And you're like... Tell me everything. i've got I've got chisels. Yeah. And I've learned the perception to see where I shouldn't put my hands behind the chisel in the path of the cutting blade. yeah But I'm not aware of the fact that I've got a bench mate right on the other side of that as well. And every single time I am using the mallet, yeah it's pointed right at them. and I... Like, it's... So...
Speaker: um I think in in my perspective of what I'm doing is like, I'm doing something brilliant here. I'm i'm creating the Mona Lisa of yeah of yeah toolboxes here. You kind of have to start with that energy. I am now a woodworker. yeah And it's like somebody else looking at me like, you are woodworking, yeah and but you don't have you're not far enough down the learning curve to even understand all of the things that are at play here and And if you realize one of these risks that you are fully blind to right now, ah it may cause you to give up the the whole endeavor from the get-go. if if it's This is somebody that i I know someone in particular that if if in their zeal for doing something, that they're at the height of that mountain in rarefied air of just drinking in everything that's going on with using the chisels for the first time. If that in their ignorance, that chisel went astray and and cut somebody, that person may say it's not worth it.
Speaker: i like I hurt somebody else. Why would I ever continue to do this? And there's so all of this is pointing to when the risk I think that we get to of in order to reach the next level, I have to take on more risk. or I have to learn new things, or I have to improve or get more refined.
Speaker: That is, for for many of us, that is more boring. It's not as engaging. So the percentage of taking on a new endeavor is is way more addictive because you're getting that positive feedback loop and, oh my gosh, look at what's possible. And I think you're absolutely right. I think you get a lot more of those.
Speaker: We should also point out there's a lot of frustration here because rarely is the opportunity that your vision of what you want to have happen fully executed by your own ability to execute what you want. So, so there's the learning process, there's trial and error, there's repetition. All of those things start to slow that, uh, that dopamine hit of, oh my gosh, this is amazing. I want to do more of this. And I think this is the reason that people start to, the cliche, I guess, is to reinvent themselves, right? I'm exploring another challenge. I'm doing another technique, another thing, another something wholly other from the process that I'm doing.
Speaker: And I think it's because of there's a pursuit of what they, the feeling that they got from the first experience, right? They're like, oh, this is great. I wish I had done this years ago, but also it's not immediate. And I think that's the hard part, especially in a society that's getting increasingly more addicted to immediate gratification. And so there's a process that it becomes harder and harder for people to start to stay the course. You brought up earlier the you know the external assessments of what it means to stick with something.
Speaker: And that and for me, i just I find it comical when um when that's what people jump to. is is that there there is an aspect of of looking out at somebody like myself who has a lot of interests.
Speaker: And and in through their picture of the story that they tell themselves as well as the story they tell about the world is one that that I think is one of the best pictures of it is Tiger Woods um as a two-year-old.
Speaker: That the way that we get to excellence, the way we get into this rarefied air long-term, specialization, specialization, specialization. And that there's a lot of of this conversation around specialization that again has a half truth associated with it is is that we do respect and admire those who endure and get to that point.
Speaker: to put through ah the effort of the fallow times, of of enduring winters, and then finding some voice anew to re-energize some new life in the the craft itself. And I would say the same thing for myself. there' is that's That's been an outstanding question, but not because of the normative judgment that comes from other people. It's it's about my relationship to what am I doing here?
Speaker: And there's been some by being more of a generalist in lots of areas, it has made me better at those areas where I do specialize. And I think that's the that's part of what happens in this story of of when people when people jump to something new.
Speaker: There's this this question of what are you going to do with that? and And I think that that sometimes what's very helpful to remember is it's not even it's not even the object or the medium that we're using. It is our relationship to what is this thing doing for us? What what is... Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. What what is, i may be molding this thing. It's also molding me. Yeah. Yeah. And and recognizing that I want to be molded, that i that that you you brought up just now, the the fact is is that that there is an aspect that says when things get hard,
Speaker: That sometimes we stop pursuing some things and we don't, we don't, how do, how do we understand? We we talked about this in the last episode. Yeah. We talked about the struggle. We talked about those aspects that says there is something about the process, about the struggle that is important. And, and so sometimes when talking to people that they hit that first, that first brick wall and they're ready to dump out and go find something else. Yeah. We do need others to come alongside them to encourage, to say, um there's a version of you on the other side of this that you should at the very least get get a glimpse of first. Oh man, that was a powerful, like maybe one of the most powerful things that I've heard you say. That was so great. But I think nobody will hear that. Unless you have somebody else alongside of you. I think that is going to be a a tough lesson to learn and be the opportunity for hearing it becomes almost impossible if you're isolated. Yeah.
Speaker: Right. Yes. it's And yet in our isolation, that's some of the things that I think we do on the one hand need to remind ourselves. On the other hand, there it's about changing.
Speaker: so So what is being changed? Yeah. Part of going back to this idea of this thing is also molding me. i love where you're going with this. is it's highlighting the areas where my relationship to struggle, yes to process that is immature.
Speaker: yeah And and that ah so so this is the balance that when i when when people start saying things like, you know you need to stick through something, yes. Because I want to discover or be discovered to be somebody that I currently cannot see. i want to be that person that endures, that person that that pushes through.
Speaker: And we used this example last time. i will give a little bit more detail to it. i mean we we We talked about the struggle in the last one and what what it takes for that. And I think the cyclicality of this and the seasons Is part of the challenge is, is that we equate the fallowness and the dormancy and the rest and the respite of winter with bad. Right. right And so when, when we hit, so when we hit a wall that is actually doing work, right? That is actually creating the struggle and and I'm bumping up against it. And I'm not feeling the movement. I'm not the movement. I'm not feeling the inertia. It's that stump that's stuck in the ground. And I've i've done everything I'm supposed to do. Yeah. And move it. Everything can of. And it doesn't move at all.
Speaker: And really what it's telling me is is that no, your perception, my perception of movement is misaligned um or or is anchored to my expectation that I should be able to perceive movement.
Speaker: And if I don't see that, then I'm convincing myself nothing's happening here. And and yes, there actually is something that's happening here. And and being someone that trusts in the the happening of winter,
Speaker: The happening of dormancy that that that goes beyond even for me, like this utilitarian view of like building up reserves again, of collecting your energy so that I can go back into expending it. Sure. In the same manner. In the same manner.
Speaker: What you're saying reminds me of my one of my favorite quotes from one of my all-time favorite artists. This is a Sting. Everybody knows Sting. I don't think I've brought this up on this podcast in the past, but I bring it up in class quite a bit. is Sting had this really great quote, and he said, when asked about, oh, we'd love to hear another album from you, what are you expecting? you know Should we expect this this year, next year? And he had this very Sting-esque way of just saying, well...
Speaker: And I really, I'm kind of in an input mode right now. Uh, I've been X exporting, uh, uh, important, exporting. Yeah. Um, so I've been, uh, I've been making work for the past X number of years and whatever.
Speaker: So I'm just taking everything in hoping that's going to generate new ideas for the future. I don't know what's going to hold. Now, two things. Number one, he's in a position where he can make that type of statement, which is great, but also a super crappy thing for him to say because even though I love his work and even from when he was with the police, ah nobody has done more with a smaller catalog than the man who's claiming that, ah just back off, I've been giving enough.
Speaker: But in that process, I think he called a light for me that there's value of just the ah the rumination, the processing, the thinking about what's going to happen when you do get back into the material, into the making, into the creation and that process.
Speaker: And it always makes me laugh because I know there's value to what he said, but there's an irony, which is not lost on me. So, so for that, it's, uh, when we are in that space marinating in something and there's no timeline for that, do we stop being artists? Yeah, exactly. That is the question, but it's a real simple answer for me, right? It's, Absolutely not. Of course you're still an artist. This is you.
Speaker: This is part of that process. If you've just finished a piece, that's great. If it's a painting, if it's a whatever, um yeah, chances are you need some respite. You need to catch your breath and ah and start over anew. The thing that I found with a lot of creative people though, is that it is rarely the situation where they have just one piece that they're working on.
Speaker: Right. So the cultivation of four or five pieces are happening in concert. And so it's rare to have like a clear delineation of ending. When is that beginning going start? In the example of, um, of, uh, there was a very old song, Now, that starts off the, uh, the ink is black and the pages whites and kind of talking about the, the folly of starting writing a new song or a new paper is just like, oh gosh, what do I do now? There's, there's so many options. And I think we've all experienced this with writing papers in college and high school, even it's just like, oh, where, where do I start this thing?
Speaker: And I think something about having multiple pieces going at the same time, it's a way a little bit from that linear dynamic, that format, that structure of these are the parameters left and rights.
Speaker: We know where we started behind us. It's only progress ahead and we kind of know where we're going to And I just, okay, great. Sometimes that works for people. Sometimes not. That that part, that linearity.
Speaker: Yeah. That we so crave sometimes to be able to say something is done. The structure helps. Yeah. And and and it it does. i think that goes back to also even this this label that we say of like, when am I allowed to say this? it's It has this element of when you have reached this point.
Speaker: Yeah. And and and i I don't, when it comes to making, when it comes to creative expression and art, I don't know if if something is, i don't know if I've ever felt that something is absolutely done.
Speaker: Yeah. i You jumped to my punchline is that I have never finished a piece ever in my life. Ever. i'm I'm reading this book that I keep referencing um that I think is has just been with me for quite a while. um I'm using it contemplatively. it's It's The Gift by Lewis Hyde. And I'm on the chapter now where he is talking about Walt Whitman.
Speaker: Okay. And Walt Whitman's ah magnum opus. hu That he kept revising yeah and ah until his deathbed. It was never finished. There's multiple versions of this. And and it's not I think we want to equate the fact that that doesn't mean that that no copies were ever sold. He released one and the first number, i think he produced 750 copies. They all sold.
Speaker: He kept working on it. And then there's another version and there's another version. There's another version. And that's not because he needed to commercialize in different ways, though. That is something that that is built into the the business strategy of today when it comes to written works is let's release the 10th anniversary edition and this one and add something enough that people want to buy this one as well. Can I tell you just on that note? Yes. I still to this day regret desperately not going to the 20th anniversary re-release of Die Hard in the movie theater. i to Every day I kick myself. Why didn't I just do it? It was in town. I could have done it. Yes. Anyway.
Speaker: Yeah, there there is something about recovering some of these pieces, Die Hard, bringing it back around and nostalgia and all those different pieces and trading on on all of those. But at the heart of this, I think is is that we we know we have to ship the the product at some point. Sure. And I think that's healthy to have a deadline. It is. yeah It is. And that's the linearity. but But we need to remember that it's not just the linearity when it comes to to our expression, to art, yeah that these things revisit. And that's why I think the the cycle of the seasons of saying that when I go through this cycle once um and I've produced that thing once
Speaker: The cycle continues and I start thinking about how I would change it, what I would do differently. All of those pieces reflects on I'm the one who's changing. yeah The person that I set out at the beginning of this in order to roast coffee beans is is that I might at one point reach a...
Speaker: reach a plateau where I'm like, wow, this blend that I did, interesting it's great. I really enjoy it. And i want to keep, I'm going to keep producing that. That's it. I've got figured out. i don't need to ask any more questions. I'm done.
Speaker: This is the only coffee I will drink for the rest of my life. That's right. And sometimes, like for me personally, there's sometimes with some of the things that I pick up, I do reach that point is now sufficient.
Speaker: But what it has done oftentimes is ceded the ground for what's next. It's created ah some version of myself that prior to this, I didn't have the perception of seeing that version of myself.
Speaker: I had to go through it. I had to reach that point. And now it's revealing something else. And does that mean I stop being a coffee roaster? Does that stop? I stop being that or or is this reminding me and calling me back to the resistance to labels in general?
Speaker: But understanding that this is a part of something bigger. It's a part of of some exploration that is never complete. and And the means for how I do that can be something where I could stick with coffee. I could so i could say like, you know, I'm just now what I need to understand is i got here, but now I really understand why i got here.
Speaker: How I got here. I feel like we have to pull that apart a little bit, but there's another point that I want drop in because I think what you described is something I felt really bad about where we started a conversation talking about we're doing this for self-expression. And I don't think it's that simple. I think that the artists that I know that have recognized some element of professional or commercial success compared to those that just do it for the love of doing it, the common thread there is always this pursuit of beauty.
Speaker: So I don't know that self-expression is always the main driving force. I think we throw that around in a conversation that makes sense. And we know artists that we can name and people that possibly have studied because they were making statements. They were talking about self-expression in a way that is tangible and documented. But that pursuit of beauty, I think, never, ever goes away. And so this is what draws the artists or the maker to find new challenges.
Speaker: Or, oh man, it'd be so cool if this time i tried blank, whatever the blank is. And that I think is what propels people to continue to do this and they can't get out of their system. To your point, that's not everybody. Some people will hit a ah point where they're like, yeah I'm kind of over that. That was great.
Speaker: When it is, I kind of got it out of my system. I could always come back to it if I choose, but I'm onto something else now and that's okay. There's something about the word resonance okay that keeps coming up. And and for for me, while you were talking about that and saying beauty and, and intellectually, we could talk about Plato's forms and yeah sure right all of those pieces of, of there's some idea that there is some idealized view of what this equals. Right.
Speaker: But but i I think the word resonance feels more alive to me, particularly when we start talking about what what is resonance? what What is there's something that vibrates within me? And when I start to approximate whatever it is ah right now, yeah, Leathercraft is what i've I've started getting into. And it's probably one of the slowest ones that I've, the uptake has been fairly slow. Well, the hardest part for you is raising the cows in your yard. That was surprising. when i I was not expecting that. I don't know how you're dealing with with your HOA, but kudos.
Speaker: i we We laugh, but that is a degree of like, okay, of how things work for me is is that- is Is that the the vertical integration that starts to happen within my own life of being like, okay, but even within now, it it is one of those jokes of what's what's Tyler doing now? yeah and And they seem disparate, but you do enough things enough times that they all start being like, oh they're not as disparate because- but like That's right. I mean- Like the, cut um I throw my own mugs for which I make my own drink from my own coffee beans from like all of these things start. The more I do it, the more i get involved in the more everywhere I look, I'm seeing more of, I'm consuming through the means of my own expression. We want to talk about the ways that it's shaping me is, is that, go that,
Speaker: yeah Looking at this mug, ah that is me. yeah i am everything I look. It is a mirror of me and my priorities and all these pieces. so And ego. hundred percent. like it It is the personality. These are these are pictures of of my life. Yeah. like it's And what a beautiful expression to be able to surround yourself with those things. Yes. As a reminder of the sacrifice you've made to explore these things, dedication, vision, right? I mean, all of these things starting to come through and you can live with that. That's kind of amazing, right?
Speaker: Yes. I have a couple of clients where the, I mean, it's not a couple, all of us do this, but, but the narratives that I oftentimes have when we lose something, right? If, if I, if there's something, if a house gets burned down, we, we've talked about my sister and it's, it's, we, we say things like, you know, and, and we, we oftentimes comfort people based on, well, at least nobody died. Yeah. It's only stuff. It's only stuff. And, and when I do grief work and trauma work with people, say that it's not only stuff. Yeah, you get it. I understand the, the safe Haven that can offer from the pain and the grief that we're experiencing. But, but we pour our lives into these things. And when we make a home, yeah, It's not a house. Sure. The construction is done. Yes, it's a house. Yeah, but it's a container for my time, my energy, my resources that I'm pouring into. And it is totem of remembrance for time as it passes.
Speaker: That everywhere that I look into this house, um in in the things that have built up over years, is is almost the equivalent of archaeologically taking a ah sample from the Earth's core and seeing all the layers of things. And, oh, this happened then, and this happened here, and this... I was thinking as you're describing this as a time capsule, right? It brings you right back to that person, that that moment in time, the struggle that you were having that you got through. And this is a memento of that celebration. Like all of these things have so much more meaning and maybe we're incredibly biased. I know I am. But it's, those things have value in ways that I think people recognize this conversation once there is, let's say a fire or a flood or whatever. And people start talking about, yeah, listen, I don't care about the microwave. I could get another microwave, but the photos of mom and dad or grandma, whatever, or the kids growing up, those are the things that kill me. I wish I could have those back.
Speaker: and that is the clearest example i think that people can kind of put themselves into like oh of course if i didn't have those in my life if i were to lose those things and yeah that's a major loss yeah ah this is the resonance piece for me yeah you but this is the resonance this is the vibration This is the finding the sense of at times grounding. It's, it is demarcating and keeping time. It is rhythm. The rhythm is huge. it And, and when these things are destroyed or lost, it's what we feel is the disruption in that rhythm.
Speaker: and And, and that's the part with, with the leather craft. Um, I'm moving at a slower rhythm. I'm moving at one that that is borrowing from some of the things that have been shaped within me from previous projects that that I have been seasoned through the through the multiple vibrations, through the multiple cycles of of these pieces. I am not the same person that would jump in
Speaker: and just start cutting these pieces, I i actually am finding a real joy in creating the space for creating itself. ah And putting fingerprints onto how I'm going to do this in a way that is different than different than what it was before. um I have a a stitching pony for leather pieces. I think we could all visualize our stitching pony in our own homes or studios. Yeah. yeah We understand. that that that That holds the piece that I've got that my very first, the very first thing that I'm doing, even before I start developing the skills and practice for leather work itself is making that space my own. So adding two pieces of leather to the to the mouth of the stitching pony. So when it holds my piece, you'll tell itarian utilitarian, but I'm already working
Speaker: thinking about using my professional wood burner on the leather to create some designs that would borrow from some of the tattoos that I have on me, that that everything starts becoming, everything I just listed there is things that I, skills,
Speaker: that I acquired doing other things that overall the seasoning of me as a, as a project or more specifically as a process of what I am becoming is now bringing to bear all of these pieces that were from very specific times in my life where I'm now unifying them into this new thing, this new form of expression that I love that aspect. and
Speaker: And it doesn't it doesn't matter that the last time that I did wood burning might have been six months ago. or like it is it is It doesn't matter in this house. And I think oftentimes we we look through this lens of absolute utilitarianism when we when we look at all the things that are around us and we're like, man, we got to pare down. Right.
Speaker: And then we get into the activity of doing the paring down and oh my God, yeah it's like you need at least one person who's somewhat ruthless. Yes. Otherwise nothing gets tossed. and you also need the person that understands that the meaning that's associated with that thing, um we we get to feel alive for a minute of reliving what it was like to be there.
Speaker: At the same time of redefining what is our relationship to that now. And because there is a time for paring down. there is ah There is a fact that um you know whatever thing I'm treasuring from that moment, you know the the the movie ticket stub. Yeah.
Speaker: of when Tiffany and I went on our first date. We might not get rid of that one, but we do we need the ones from the other 30 that we went to? yeah um or is that an invitation to use that as material anew for creating something new? And I think this actually even gets into, i mean, before we started talking, we the nature of deconstruction versus destruction. The the destructive mind that says, like I'm just going to get rid of all of this stuff because it's too overwhelming. persons today Yeah. versus The deconstruction of actually walking through slowly and starting to say, like this part I want to keep. There's a value here. There's something that's a part of this that I need carrying forward.
Speaker: And and i think getting i mean I think for me, I just stumbled into even a little bit of what we were talking about. I think we do that in so many different ways, whether sometimes the period of when I've forgotten who I want to be can be prolonged.
Speaker: And sometimes- In a grounding way. This you right back. Yeah. So so so maybe in you know picking up, I mean, one of those is I'm always looking at two things. And this is like, I'm always walking past my ukulele and and my drums.
Speaker: And i you know going back to the rhythm- here of like these are these are very pragmatic things where the rhythm of making music itself is something that and and playing along keeping time it's very meaningful it's it's grounding for me it's an it's a practice But I'm not practicing it right now. I am rusty. I am. And I, but I haven't, there's been times where I'm like, these drums take up a lot of space. Is it time to get rid of these? I'm like, no, because there's something about holding off. Can I, first of all, right now, because I only get down there when I'm working out. Yeah. Right. And i get on there and I just tool around a little bit. Can I call myself a percussionist? Can I call myself a drummer?
Speaker: We're past all that. And I'm not actively doing it. We're past that. Yes. So, but I think the important part about that example and four or five you're talking about with leather burning six months prior to and all that, you still are developing that relationship. That is still something you're fostering. And that carries you emotionally through like, okay, I can't wait to get back into the wherever, right?
Speaker: At the drum kit, in the studio, painting, making candles, whatever, right? It's those types of things are major forces that carry us through and we can see the enthusiasm, the excitement, the energy that that provides, even without touching that material is huge. It's huge. I don't need to, I think part of the myth that, that is important for me personally to, to defeat is this idea that I have to be doing in order to exist as blank.
Speaker: and Yeah. And it's very damning, isn't it? I think I, I, I, I feel that that's where a lot of us are in general. Is it just based on production example about, okay, well show us what you've done.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's in this language of transaction and this language of of completion, this language of unless I am moving toward something that I can perceive I'm moving toward, unless I can deliver value to myself right now or to other people. It's yes, the the productivity constantly being a project that needs to be in movement, it needs to be doing. is itself a perversion of what it means to be in the process of becoming.
Speaker: i kind of hate this conversation, but I totally understand why we have to have it. Because I think it's an external force for somebody who lacks the confidence of knowing who they are in that whatever.
Speaker: Right? So... if it is if it is a painting if it's a throwing of of pots mugs or of course you're absolutely that person maybe the tools have become rusty maybe that tool is you and you need to get back in step with what makes this thing enjoyable the immediacy of the enjoyment that you're having but do you have somebody else come in and mandate oh yeah well you haven't done it for years you're you're you're not really a whatever anymore No, we got to get rid of that stuff tuesday today. That's not okay. And it would hate, I would hate for people to minimize the value that you've created for yourself because of all the hard work you've done just because it doesn't fit into their format, their structure, right? That's the projection.
Speaker: it's It's way of projecting. this This is, this is therapist Tyler is starting to come out and say that, that, that those judgments, those assessments, The judgment is the word that I wanna hang this now. Tell much more about the person offering them than they do about us. And yet the question then we have to ask, the question I have to ask myself is what leverage am I giving to that person to convince me of what they're judging? Okay. But I think there's also a quiet voice in our own minds that raised this as well, though. So yes, external judgment. I think this is, I could recognize a loaded conversation very easily. This is it. But the internal conversation is the one I'm more concerned about and protecting the sanctity of the people that may be listening about go forth, do your thing. And these are the reasons why it's because this is giving you whatever it's giving you. If it's getting you through a hard time,
Speaker: That's huge value. If it breaks um ah breaks the anxiety that you're feeling about something else, awesome. That's great. If it's a thing because you can't stop doing it, yeah, by all means, do that thing. If you can't do it today, maybe tomorrow.
Speaker: Maybe it's four months from now. That's nobody's decision to make, right? Yeah. I i do think we're, yeah, feeling, we're we're finding the heart of this conversation. Yeah. Which is, know, the- The pauses between- That's right. actual making and the nod is the hard part. if i'm If I'm drumming, one E and a two E and a three and a four E and a one E and a two E, the distance between one and two is and a. And it's filled with that activity.
Speaker: And someone would look that and be like, wow, okay, so activity is happening. If I take the, if I'm not doing anything between, I'm not filling it with the Ianda.
Speaker: One, two, three, four. what What happens when I, one, two. We want, we've talked, mean, this phrase, resonance, vibration, which is a frequency, which is a We want to fill in the gaps with this idea that we stop being because there are gaps. And I think, yeah, what what we're what we're calling to is is that the music is still playing.
Speaker: and And simply because we fill it with activity or noise even doesn't mean that we're playing the song we want to be playing. And and if others are telling us that we should be playing faster or like...
Speaker: Or doing it in a certain way. Or that if you're doing something like crochet or knitting or or cooking for other people, or the frequency doesn't doesn't denote this on or off. And that that's where that's where historically I've spoken with others. I myself start to get into this space of of questioning, do I have to be, when I say that I am a maker, when I say that I am expressing, am I allowed to take a breath and inhale?
Speaker: Or do i have to does everything have to be exhaling? And in a and and part of why i think we're so we part of, for me, why I feel like we've ended up here is because it is easy for us, whether it is in our art or expression or living, it is easy to get lost in the constant constantly exhaling of breathing out, of producing. And then to find that the mechanism for getting back to something that we do for ourselves is still through this perverted lens of, well, you've got to find a reason for it producing in order to actually move back to it.
Speaker: and And I think that the part that i' that i I find encouraging from other people is that moment when they realize, oh, I don't need to justify picking up the guitar again. I don't need to justify- I'm not doing it for anybody else. i i I can pick it up again. Yeah. i Everything that I was using as a means for, ah i will pick it up when, and then fill in the plate. Yeah. I can reject those. And you should.
Speaker: Yes. I think it's harder. It's easier said than done. I think it's really hard to shut out the external noise ah no matter what, especially if it's coming from people that you have you have prior relationship with because there's complexity there.
Speaker: ah You value their opinion or you feel like their opinion is something that you can't ignore. But I think internally knowing that there is value in this and the fact that you have access to it is something that should not be overlooked. I mean, that's a valuable thing. And then just to go way back to a conversation we had earlier today about during this podcast of um the object having value. And so if there's a loss of that, then you start to really recognize, oh,
Speaker: This had so much meaning to me because, and the process of being somebody that has the opportunity to create those things for other people's lives, that's an incredible gift that we could start building a table for a person or a mug or a painting or a meal or holidays or birthday celebration or whatever. Those are all amazing opportunities for us to be a part of somebody else's narrative. That's a huge gift.
Speaker: before ah Before you jump in, ah everything you're just talking about with the the value of being able to come back to this thing. So playing guitar, drums, whatever. This, I think, is something that's relevant for all of us. Did you ever see Mr. Holland's Opus?
Speaker: Okay, so you know where i'm going with this, but there was this really beautiful thing about going through the the newly graduated from music school and he had a very different vision for what his life is going to entail and unfold. And so Trials and Tribulations had to take a job a matter of necessity and um had to teach driving driver's ed in the summers, just a again, necessity. So fast forward to his retirement, he had been working on his opus all of his life, right? That was the thread that was woven through him that held him. That was his grounding point. That was his creative expression that it wasn't the public one that he was hoping for and the external recognition.
Speaker: But the scene at the very end messes me up every time, right? It was all of his former students coming in and playing his music for him for when he was graduating. I mean, come on how is that not an amazing example of the value of what you're doing and i mean if we're lucky we're going to have something that's experienced like that that people will see your worth and recognize this art form or this craft that you're doing and uh want to recognize it and give something back to you that's huge that was a huge example
Speaker: It is. but i also think it leads us to the next iteration of what we were just talking about. like It's easy to have my ukulele hanging on the wall and to have the intention of always getting back to that.
Speaker: I think the more difficult piece is when I pick up the ukulele for the first time and I'm doing it because it's a form of expression and I have a living relationship with that. And then I'm still playing the ukulele and at some point I forgot that I actually enjoy doing this.
Speaker: What does it take to remember? Similar, we just said this this choice, this choice I have to to get back and to pick it up again. Well, what if I physically never laid it down?
Speaker: But I went through this fallow period of remember forgetting why I was even doing it in the first place. And that act of of remembering that the opus was being written the entire time and that the tools I simply did not recognize as being a part of my craft.
Speaker: that I saw them as utilitarian. I saw them as productivity tools. like All of those the things that steal away from the the things that that I decided to do in laying down the instrument for a period of time because there's pragmatic realities of putting food on the table and all those pieces. yeah yeah They happen even within the lens of of doing the thing, of of saying that what attracted me to this in the first place was this appeal to who I am that eventually I did get the label. I became the woodworker. I became the mechanic.
Speaker: And i forgot along that that path that I actually love doing this. that i that and and And what's going on then? yeah What's happening then? it's a big question. I think it's different for everybody because I think that the opposite example, if you were constantly in a state of playing drums or ukulele or whatever, ah there is not that distance that needs to create some perspective. You're always in the grind. I don't know if you love it in the same way yeah if you're constantly doing it, right? But that rediscovery, all the same rushing back of feelings about, oh my gosh, Of course, this is why I've saved this thing. Of course, this is why i wanted, I've always been drawn to it. And it's always been in the back of my mind. And then you have this reawakening of, oh yeah, this is a lot of fun. i want to do more of this. I think you just described where we, you asked the question we talked about, what is it about the shiny new object?
Speaker: What is it about the newness, the the relation? It's about reinvigorating the relationship that we have to this thing of being reminded more frequently. I'm loving this. I'm loving the struggle. I'm loving the ah the the means of expression, the learning something new.
Speaker: We talked in the last um episode specifically about the periods of an artist that when it stops, that they they find a way for reinvigorating it. And ah and and the part is is that I think the the gravity towards it becoming stale is always there. whether we Whether living life and the pragmatic things of putting food on the table pull us away from the love of doing something expressive and we and we we literally put that down or doing that thing...
Speaker: pulls us away from the reminder that it's our job to surprise ourselves, to reach for awe and wonder, to to experiment, to break it up. ah when when When Tiffany and i went to a concert recently, to the Jack Johnson concert, he... There's something about about him reinventing these songs that he's played over and over and over again. Could it be a performance? Sure. i do think there's an element here of making concert your
Speaker: at every concert your own And reminding yourself that I'm up here doing something that that i but that I love until I decide to turn it into a job.
Speaker: And and i me and the girls went to another concert several years ago i i don't we we might as well just listened to the album there was virtually get it nothing of going on yeah and i'm like there's something about the co-creation opportunity here but even reflecting within yourself what it is that you're you're giving yourself the permission to do in that moment and and part of i think the cycle and the seasons is when something is is dead, when the harvest is over and we've moved into that period of now it feels like things are dead.
Speaker: dead is a heavy word, but dormancy, would you be comfortable with that? Dormancy is is is fine. um Yeah, I think moving into that dormancy, moving into where everything is retracted, it doesn't feel alive, is those opportunities to to say, where have I allowed the things outside of myself to convince me that something's not happening, something's not alive, something is dormant, and find new ways of of enlivening it. and And that's the choice that i that that i've I have more examples of falling victim to that choice But I also have this aspect of my appetite for doing a lot of things is is highly reflective ah at the very least being alive and um and and choosing to experience ah as much and wonder as possible and the rhythm of that.
Speaker: There is no greater understanding of being alive than the maker or the artist in that creative process. It is just so clearly, oh yeah, this is what I'm here to do. This feels right. It's very centering. It's empowering. It's exhilarating. Frustration comes with it too, but oh my gosh, it is, it is a super addictive endeavor. We, we have, I think I've mentioned, I'm doing deep work around, ah the archetype of the trickster and, and mischief. Yeah. And at the same time that some of the indigenous studies that I am, uh, that focuses largely on the Northern Arapaho tribe, because that's the land we sit on, is there, there's these four interrelational dynamics that they discuss.
Speaker: Pity is one of those, not in the way that we define it. It's actually an action-driven form of pity that says if you see somebody that inspires pity within you, that's that's an obligation that you are being called to and invited to actually sit with the discomfort to potentially even meet it.
Speaker: But one of them, i and probably right now my favorite one that's very consistent with the trickster and the mischief piece, is this quality of craziness. That is one of their interrelational um values that they use. And early on in the formation and development of youth and and growing older, craziness is dangerous. It is it is destructive to the individual. It's destructive to the flourishing of the community. But when you get to somewhere between 40 and 50 years old, after you have gone through your formative years, You have the opportunity to join the crazy lodge. And in the crazy lodge- i want to hear everything about this. Yeah. What is it?
Speaker: Craziness is virtuous. Wow. Craziness is how do you invite craziness back in order to destroy the staleness of the structure and the stability and move from the addiction to structure and stability and formula and linearity back to They're remembering what it means to be alive and to deal with with a life itself that is uncertain and is not even close to being as structured and stable as we believe it is.
Speaker: And i there's something about, even in what we've been talking about, whether it's it is remembering that we need a little bit of crazy. we need We need to disrupt. We need to undermine. We need to we need to remember that transaction and and why are you doing this? whats what's What are you going to do with this ceramics? Are you going to sell it? Are you go to No.
Speaker: yeah No, that I'm going to do this because it's crazy. because sure Because by all accounts, when you look at my schedule and when you hear all the things that I'm doing, everyone would be like, but you've got a lot on your plate. Yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker: And I need to be making choices to break that up. And there's no logic in the world to do that. There's no rationale that a reasoned person from the outside would say, you know, it makes sense to do that.
Speaker: That's the definition of crazy. I need a little bit of crazy. I need to do the thing that doesn't make sense. Yeah, the chaos. We all need that. And we need that in a way that the minute that we then stumble upon, wow, there's a freedom here. I just created something that's great. And the minute that something crops up and says, oh, you could sell this. Right. That gives it this sense of transaction. That's a wet blanket right there.
Speaker: Yeah. my My response with more craziness is hell no. Right. This is this This is a gift. This is a gift to me, and it's a gift to those that will use it as a remembrance that they could choose crazy as well, and that we want to we want to choose some crazy together.
Speaker: And that that's, we need some times for crazy, where the demands of spring, of cultivating and... and and and tilling the soil the demands of nurturing the summer of growth the demands of harvesting and filling the granaries needs a period of time that follows that says what are we going to do crazy that's going to keep us alive this next year because this whole thing is uncertain and at that it's core i've part of me expression and art and and making is reminding ourselves that that we don't control anything about the future
Speaker: that we want to actually develop some some dance with crazy. And that is not to say that stability and structure isn't good. We need that too. But in the balance, when that starts taking over and we, I keep the ukulele, I keep the drums, I keep the the pottery, I keep the jujitsu mat, I keep the roasters, I keep the workshop, all of these pieces, they are my totems to remembering.
Speaker: I'm a little crazy and I want to be crazy more often. think it's good advice. I'm going to break the fourth wall here and encourage all of our listeners to go out and find their own crazy.
Speaker: Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
Speaker: And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface-level advice, subscribe to our kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
Speaker: And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.
