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Judo - Ep12 - Archaic Wrestling
56 Plays6 months ago
Sasha and Evan connect with Nijel to explore this not so ancient martial art and interrogate the connections with wrestling...
Judo and the Process of Nation Building in Japan
Music by Josh Kasen
Twitter: @ArchaicWrestle
ArchaicWrestling@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Judo with Nigel
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome back to Archaic Wrestling, folks. My name is Evan. I'm joined by Sasha. How are you, Sasha? Good. Hello, everybody. Welcome back, everybody. um We are interested to have a wonderful topic today. We're going to be covering Judo. It's not going to be something that we can truly cover alone. Judo is a really big topic um with a lot to say about it. We'll try not to get too distracted and go on too many tangents because there's many to go on. um But we wanted to make sure that we introduced a friend of the podcast who's going to be joining us today and that is Nigel. Say hello, Nigel. Hey guys, thanks for having me and I'm excited. I've been doing judo for probably four years now. Made my way all the way up to a brown belt in that four year span and really close to my black belt. Need a couple more wins. That's how we do it at our gym.
00:01:11
Speaker
If you get 10 black belt wins in a year, you get your black belt. So I'm excited to for next year. I'll probably make a big attempt to try to get my black belt. Oh, all right. Good luck. That's cool. Um, and you said that that's how you're like dojo. That's how they, uh, that's how they standardized that. Yeah, we have, well, we have competition. like competition belts really, where if you compete a lot, you can get your belts you can accelerate your belts through that way. And that's kind of how I did it. And that's not traditional at all. So I want to put that out there. But um I had a lot of success in my white belt when I was beating black belt. So they were kind of like, okay, let's kind of get this show on the road a little bit. But it's still very, yeah, we still do
00:01:55
Speaker
In practice, we're extremely traditional, just not in that one concept. Gotcha. All right.
Wrestling Tournament Format Challenges
00:02:00
Speaker
Well, I'm excited to learn a little bit more about that. um ah Before we jump into it, either of you want to say anything about the wrestling world, the landscape right now? If not, we'll edit this out. But if so, would ah love to hear if you got a soapbox to get on or anything like that. I have my soapbox is that finals X and the way our tournament is formatted. Oh makes you have to peek three times in one year ah To win it to to have the right to wrestle for an Olympic medal I would like to see a different format maybe a point format where you generate enough points and then The top three guys kind of hash it out via points or the top five guys, but that's very un-american so everyone should be equal opportunity blah blah blah, but I Think the way we're doing it now sets us back a little tiny bit
00:02:54
Speaker
I gotta say, I want to applaud you for ah you know not just bringing up ah an issue with our qualification process. like i think everyone you know I think there's a lot of silly people that are saying, no, the toughness is what we really need. That's like what makes you know our process good. yep But i think it is like it's I think it's very clear that if you can you know just go when you know win a qualifying tournament in Mexico, then that's a better way to get into the Olympics right now, right or or you know something along those lines. and it's you know, a better system for the athlete, right, in terms of not having to peak in everything you just said. um But I think most people make that complaint and then they don't propose any sort of better system. um And I think that's the first time anyone's ever said something that was like, oh, that's actually a reasonable like thought to replace it with. I don't know, Sasha, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, a lot of people, you know, when Darian Cruz took out Richards, when Gomez took out Lee, he was like,
00:03:52
Speaker
A lot of people would like, you know, what's going on or like, we have what, three Americans qualifying for Mexico and Puerto Rico. And it's like, you know, how how did that happen? And yeah, it's like you said, it's like, you walk through, you know, your Mexico tournament. You don't really have to peek. You peek for pan-ams for your qualifier. That's it. Now you're wrestling in the Olympics. We have Nick Lee, you know, all these guys peeking for the pan-ams. uh you know having to peak for the olympic trials then having to i mean and now they're gonna have to go ahead and peak for the last chance qualifier and then for the olympic so you know it's potentially four times you're really asking them to put their best effort out there and it's it's not really reasonable given you know a lot of the guys are really putting out like two yeah two times or one time if they already qualified the weight so it's
00:04:48
Speaker
it's it's ah It's a bit much. It's all the different tournaments are how do you, you know, how do you do it? Cause it's also hard when you see a guy who's really good or maybe it's, it's his first year out of college or, you know, he's making a run for it to take the spot. But now he has to go through a whole tournament and then the old format where he would then have to wrestle like five matches and then. wrestle a fresh guy that kind of sucked too so it's kind of hard to figure out what the the move is here but whatever the what we have now is not i i don't think it's the way to do it we're gonna keep getting yeah our guys go i don't mind it for this i don't mind that the sitting returning medalist sits i do not mind that at all i do mind where a guy has to drop down and wait because it's not ah it's a not olympic weight and that guy has to wait in the semis to kind of duke it out but then there's guys who
00:05:39
Speaker
who have been wrestling all year at that weight that don't get the same opportunity because they lost to the guy that ended up getting a world medal at his weight class so or her weight class. there's not there's no There's no good way to fix it right now and we watch out that we can watch how other countries do it and like you said Sasha, the people believe the formula is We're our tournament is tough and that's why we get the best guys that go and I would say like if you look at David Taylor Versus yes, Donny if you look how many times he had the Russell before he got the 86 kilo spot and then you look how many times I mean as Donny wrestled The kind of the proof is kind of there. It's like oh okay He has to he has to peek cuz he has to worry about Aaron Brooks Aaron Brooks is really good And yes, Donny has to be guys in Iran too. So I don't
00:06:30
Speaker
I don't know how they do it over there, but it's, we, we don't help ourselves for sure. Well, yeah, it would
Judo in Martial Arts History
00:06:38
Speaker
be good if that kind of helps, uh, solves the issue of, you know, wanting a few American wrestlers to stick around if possible. Um, if it's, you know, if we can't, we can't offer a better system, right? Um, can't fault the athletes too much. So we, once again, we are covering judo and I do want to talk a little bit and get your guys's opinion on, um, you know, we are, it is about like, we're covering wrestling, right? and On this podcast. Um, and as we bring things in that are, you know, submissions are involved or it's kind of more, uh, has a more roots in some older martial arts that are, you know, less sports oriented.
00:07:16
Speaker
Um, I think we've talked about this a little bit before Sasha where and how do we, you know, really draw that line between, okay, does this count as a form of wrestling that's worth covering, um, within like wrestling history or whether this is something that, you know, maybe it's for a different podcast. I don't know. How do you guys feel? Yeah, I think we, we were talking about this where we were, we were going back for something. Is it, is it wrestling? Uh, at least for me, it's like, uh, you know, it's the old, like, you know, it when you see it. I think if you, if you watch judo, if you're watching dudes get thrown consistent, you're just, you're watching throws, you're watching high amplitude stuff. You're looking at it. If you're like this, that's gotta to be wrestling. They're getting thrown there. They're getting thrown, you know, it's like a jacket wrestling, like, uh, so most, I think of the stuff we've covered on the podcast have involved some kind of jacket, you know, Cornish wrestling, Mongolian wrestling.
00:08:14
Speaker
ah so many of these styles have, you know, a jacket and throws and I think it fits in with that. um And I don't think that having the submissions in, in it as a way to win takes away from that. I think it's I don't you look at it and you're like, they're wrestling, they're wrestling out there. Yeah. And I think in that sense, Judo also is It's very interesting because we know so much about Judo's history. And a lot of it is- We'll document it. Yeah, yeah, extremely. Because it is relatively new, you know, um in the broader scheme of things. um And Judo takes ah history and a lot of it's, you know, the way it developed.
00:08:54
Speaker
is going to come out of jiu-jitsu, traditional jiu-jitsu. We're going to try not to talk about that too much because that you know deserves kind of its own episode probably, but we you know we do want to recognize that that for a while judo was just kind of another form of jiu-jitsu that's kind of what it was thought of. yeahp And we can't talk about judo without bringing up um the man himself that's going to be Kano Jiguro um And Kano was born in 1860 and he is widely considered to be the founder of judo to you know an incredible degree. He's definitely the founder of judo. And he really developed judo in the sense that Kano was a younger guy.
00:09:34
Speaker
The legend is that, you know, he was kind of bullied and picked on and he wanted to be able to defend himself. So he started ah learning jiu-jitsu and he wanted to learn jiu-jitsu for a long time. And there's a lot that can be said about Kano. Kano deserves his own episode. He's a very en enigmatic figure in Japanese, just sport in general. And there's lots to learn about him. Like he's the father of Japanese, like physical education, essentially, essentially ah modern physical education. He's kind of like right at that epicenter of the way a lot of Western influence was coming into Japan in those late 1800s that time. And so Judo, at least from my perspective, looks like there is like this downstream way in which it is a descendant upon the way yeah Japan was changing.
00:10:23
Speaker
uh, during that time, right? There's, there's people like Kano who what wasn't, he wasn't just a sports dude. He was like an intellectual. The guy, you know, was a professor of economics and a big part of, I think where he developed his style was he learned from a lot of different Shih Tzu masters. He was open to learning all kinds of, of a grappling arts from, uh, places outside of Japan, even. Uh, but before we get into that need, uh, to, to let Nigel in here. So one thing about, uh, Kano that like, I always loved mentioning that he got buried in his white belt and he said it was because he wanted to be remembered as a student and not as a master of judo. So I think like, that's like one of the coolest things ever. Whenever you talk about Kano, that's like, that's so good. It's like getting buried in your mad hogs, like your first pair of wrestling shoes. Like you would never wear mad hogs ever again, but.
00:11:15
Speaker
So one thing like Kano and he's going to have his own episode, but the reason you have to learn so much, uh, so much jujitsu is because there were people that would not take him on as a student because he got bullied. Well, depending on your stories, right? Like. Because he was getting bullied so much and because jujitsu was like so out of practice in that time where Japan was being so westernized, people were like, I know jujitsu and I'm not teaching you it because I want you to learn something more Japanese, more something like relevant to our culture. So a lot of those people were opening opening up like like physical therapy centers because jujitsu was so out of practice. and
00:11:55
Speaker
So he had to literally go from school to school learning from much as he can for as long as he can until those schools close their doors or They they would say like hey, you're not really good at this or you're like a little smaller You're getting you're gonna get hurt a lot say would move him on to the next person that would teach him Oh is that sponsored a lot of other? um practitioners they would all come through his dad's workstation and They were would kind of teaching a little bit but not too much and that's kind of like how he just became a student by necessity because he wanted to learn how to protect himself. He
Kano Jiguro's Legacy
00:12:32
Speaker
didn't want to be bullied and beyond that he truly liked.
00:12:36
Speaker
And you'll find this more out the more and more you talk about him. Beyond that, he just truly loved the grappling arts. And like, like you said, he's like the godfather of Japanese physical, like physical education. They take judo. Everyone has to take judo at some point in Japan. Um, they don't have to, but it's like very preferred for them to take judo at some, at some point in time. Yeah, no, he was, it was very obvious that he was quite the person. And you mentioned the belt story. i mean I also didn't know this before researching this a little bit more. I wasn't aware that he was the one that came up with the Kyudan system um that's like used across like tons of martial arts now, um especially Japanese martial arts, and the idea of having like colored belts. um and how you know he I guess he essentially invented like the black belt, right? Or Jiroka did and in general, right? yeah I think that's really interesting because, you know, I'm, I'm used to having like a karate background and I remember the traditionalists in karate, like really ah mocking like the, the mix dojo format where you've got your, your yellow belt and your orange belt and your blue belt and your purple belt. And you have like all all this stuff that's kind of been this commercialized version of what the belts really used to be where it was much more simplified. It wasn't quite so flashy and quite so commercialized in that sense. Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that was cool. Hadn't heard learned that about that before. um But so, you know, like you said, he he struggles to like really be accepted in some some dojos for a while, but he does um eventually and he trains and he really is, you know, maybe he's not like the most physically imposing person, like he's kind of small. um But he's really a student of the sport and his ah teachers really noticed that about him. And he actually has several of his mentors pass away while he was still training you training with at a pretty young age, right? A lot of their teachings and like the scrolls of the dojo got passed to him. Like I think his teachers really saw him as a person that was going to be worth investing in because that they're going to pass on the craft.
00:14:43
Speaker
And so he does, he he starts his own school, known as the Kodakon. Kodakon. And he, ah ah one of the things that was really impressed upon him in his his own training was Randori, which is like free sparring, right? Where you're going live. And he was a very strong proponent that Randori was something to be focused on, was important in the school. because he viewed judo or or his system um was supposed to be like, it's physical, it's intellectual, and it's also like this moral education. Right. So his style of jujitsu, which became judo, um was a little bit more along the lines of like, how am I becoming this like full person? um Apparently he took out a lot of techniques for that. He had learned in jujitsu that he wouldn't teach in judo because of there was more about injuring somebody or it was a little bit more martial.
00:15:41
Speaker
and less about just kind of like a philosophy and lifestyle. So he has this real strong idea that what they're doing has to work and has to be effective. So it has a strong focus on Randori and they're also taking part in a lot of competitions, even like dual meets essentially with Jiu-Jitsu schools. um And there were a lot of like tournaments and competitions organized by the Tokyo Police that they took part in. And for the judo guys, what even though it wasn't called judo yet, they were, you know, seeing that they were more athletic, stronger than some of the other schools. um But they, their teacher, Kano, was very interested in continuing to learn and figuring out what worked. How did they get beat? Super intellectual exercise. He would probably be watching film if that was a thing back then, right? but He would invite other senseis from other dojos to come and teach his folks. So we see this foundation of
00:16:35
Speaker
um, learning and intellectualizing a sport leading into what is judo. definite Definitely. One of the biggest things I feel like that I learned was that I guess, you know, coming from wrestling, I kind of conceived as judo as, you know, like a particular style that was like, Oh yeah, that's like a traditional style of how you do th throws or something. Like for me, I was like, you know, you look at, Oh, we have wrestling boxing is a traditional style of. you know, striking with only the hands, no elbows, no feet, kickbox, you know, Muay Thai is, oh, that's a traditional form of striking, you know, using everything. And you look at like categorizing judo in that way. I was like, Oh, okay. So judo must be traditional form of jacket wrestling that focuses on throws. Uh, and then reading more into this became really clear that it was less, um, you know, less a development where they were,
00:17:31
Speaker
putting everything into here's how we do th throws and much more so a guy looking at all of the knowledge and the techniques available to him at that time and trying to figure out what would be the best thing, basically just like the best training regimen. What would be the best things to train to become effective and taking out striking because you can't do it without, you know, you can't do it in a full sense without injuring people. for yourself right yeah yeah taking out a lot of various joint locks and focusing only on, uh, you know, elbow and like strangles because those are ones you can do fairly safely and continue to do them. And, and this whole practice regimen. So I really, I, it was interesting to learn that it's a less a style of folk wrestling, like the way Mongolian wrestling was.
00:18:22
Speaker
or that like Cornish wrestling was. And it was much more a more modern attempt at creating like what would be the idealized training regimen for a martial artist. And then just using the techniques that he found to be that. And then it outgrowing into what we now consider to be like a sport. But it's really clear it wasn't really theorized that way, which is interesting. Yeah, the gentle
Judo Techniques and Training
00:18:48
Speaker
way was supposed to be the gentle way. and um It's meant to be like more so like you're saying Sasha more so showing off your technique You know like a very art Not like artsy, but like in a very like you're painting a picture type of way right so like there was a lot of kata kata is like
00:19:09
Speaker
So Ren Dory would be like free sparring or live wrestling and Kata would literally be like drilling but drilling to a sense that you're really emphasizing on showing up like I'm so good at this technique I can show you how to hit this technique and flow and it looks organic and it looks like I'm well look like they would do Kata's like as like a play almost like two guys going through their life how they grew up it is like they're doing ju-ju-juda or judo they're doing judo kata which is like also pretty crazy. You don't see a lot of kata anymore. You don't see as much kata anymore, but I think schools that put an emphasis this is on kata, I think that's also really cool. like When I go down to a different school to train and they're like, all right, we're going to warm up by watching these people do kata. At first, I was kind of like, oh my God, dude, like let's go let's get the practice. But then I was like, oh, okay, this is super important. This is super important. And that's why I'm on the lower belt and not a black belt because it took me some time to like understand that.
00:20:08
Speaker
Cotta gets a bad rap because I think of like the modern MMA crowd kind of around that sort of stuff. I think Cotta really gets like emblematic of the McDojo thing, because that's what people see. You know, you see the little kids that are like, ah, reverse punch, you know, and like, you know, uplock and and they it's all that kind of stuff, right? Um, and it, it doesn't look like sparring. It doesn't look like what you, you know, see in the fight game, right? That's not how they train. Um, but if you kind of get out of the competition mindset and focus less on like, uh, well, is that going to work in a fight kind of deal? And it's a little bit more about, uh, demonstrating your proficiency with technique, right? And it's just a way to like, actually it's hard to show someone really good technique in live wrestling, right? Uh, live wrestling gets ugly.
00:20:55
Speaker
But if I want to know how ah well a student understands technique, I'm not going to go just to live wrestling. I'm going to watch them drill. Right. That's a super important part of understanding. Do they understand the technique? Do they understand what type of position they're supposed to be in? Right. And so I i view CAATA in a similar way. And I think it gets a bad rap sometimes. Yeah. Nigel, I'm interested. What is your experience as it comes to like how your practices in judo are structured? um I am terrible at kata and because i from my background in wrestling. I'm really good just making it dirty making it ugly and just kind of but as Like as I go into more tournaments to get back into the training focus right as I got more tournaments the deeper I get in these tournaments I'll be losing the guys that were like
00:21:47
Speaker
And I'm not disparaging them but they look like soccer dads or like someone who like this literally I lost to the guy his kids were in the corner Let's go dad. Let's go dad and I'm like not to cream this guy. I couldn't get to any of my grips I couldn't get like you just kind of negate it all my technique all my like where I'm stronger as like an athlete You just kind of negate it all that When I first started I used to just do it a lot of a lot a lot of Rindori and and I was doing really well because my wrestling but background and they're the guys I was training with were also nationally ranked. um Awesome guys like Austin Cook, Ronnie Shepherd, Alex, I don't know how to say his last name because it's really long, but um they all were nationally ranked and won national tournaments age level wise and alex or Austin made it to the Olympic representative but didn't qualify the spot. right so
00:22:47
Speaker
We got a really deep squad where I trained and I was just surviving because of wrestling and then After a while I was getting to these big tournaments and it was getting beat up real bad, but the further I made it So now it's a lot of like I do a sometimes some days I don't even do a random story I just I'll do like I'll try to get like 800 and I'm not this is not an exaggeration I try to do like 800 fit ends or Uchikomi, which is like I like going like halfway hitting just making and putting a lot of emphasis on the grip putting a lot of emphasis on your all my feet in my steps now it's going okay I'm gonna do eight hundred which you call me for my um mochi mata which is kind of like what could like a donkey kicking wrestling essentially like I'm gonna do like eight hundred which are eight hundred to come before my old goshi which is like a big hip bro and once I started doing that I immediately got worse and then
00:23:42
Speaker
Three months later after that, i got I was getting so much better. I i beat the guy, the soccer dad that beat me. I ended up beating him. I got another national tournament. So it was just like, it's just like wrestling. If you go in and you wrestle live and you're really good because you come from a different sport or you're just bigger, stronger, faster, you're going to beat a lot of guys. But then there's going to be some pudgy kid that knows how to hit an outside step single. And every time you step to be athletic, he beats you to the punch and you're just like, what is going on? and That's like very like transitive in judo as well. I think this is a good time for a quote from Kano. I'm going to read it.
00:24:21
Speaker
In short, resisting a more powerful opponent will result in your defeat, well whilst digesting two and evading your opponent's attack will cause him to lose his balance. His power will be reduced, and you will defeat him. This can apply whatever the relative values of power, thus making it possible for weaker opponents to beat significantly stronger ones. This is the theory of Jiyoku Gosesu. thought that was a nice little quote from him that really kind of epitomized, you know, his philosophy, it seemed to be. But so these, these Tokyo police kind of tournaments they would set up, it allowed for what we now call judo to be a little bit more popularized, people saw its effectiveness, right? And started, you know, it just basically exploded across Japan, you know, it was eventually put into the curriculum of schools, um like, but like by 1910, he really kind of ah
00:25:11
Speaker
Kano, it was 1882, I believe, when he founded his Kodakan. By like the early 1900s, they had already integrated Judo into into school curriculum. So it was big, fast, and a lot having to do with his training methods. um But he eventually became like Minister of Sport in Japan. um And he really used this position, not just for internally ah growing Judo, but externally as well. Um, it was getting exported into the international scene. Pretty, uh, for a lot of the same reasons that got exported to the, you know, throughout Japan. Um, and, oh, and I should also mention like the first woman to enroll in the Kodakon, uh, was in 1904. So still pretty. Very ahead of his time. Yeah. yeah Can you imagine what the day to day, like what practice would have been like for her? Yeah, I bet she definitely, I bet those first two weeks were like very like tougher, but after.
00:26:09
Speaker
Well, I was looking at that date and I was like, when did we legalize wearing pants for wearing America? I'm like, just considering that. I mean, it does speak to his like, you know, kind of a progressive stance and at least, uh, you know, in some ways in terms of just like what he was trying to do with judo, right? Um, he, like he wanted to share it with everybody. So he had a rise in global popularity. Um, I, I have a note here about the Budokwai. The Budokai is actually a ah school of Japanese martial arts that was founded in London ah way back in 1918, the oldest um like actual Japanese martial arts school in Europe. I i saw some conflicting stuff about that.
00:26:52
Speaker
but I was really interested to see that it was that that early to have something like that there. um And it would be like some Japanese immigrants. I owned it, but Kano actually visited there at one point back in, it would have been, let's see, in 1920. So just a couple of years after they opened, he went to visit and they adopted judo very quickly after that. And they were kind of a big epicenter for judo's growth within the European area. So things are exploding outward from Japan and they're exploding outwards kind of from the UK. And you know, judo has had a lot of our shoots because of that, right? Sambo is essentially came directly from judo, right? Like it's, it's, it's like a direct line from judo to Sambo. And a lot of different countries have really adopted judo in a very strong way. um You know, it's really popular in Georgia. It's really popular ah like in France. I think France has the second most amount of world medals.
00:27:49
Speaker
of any country other than Japan. South Korea, it's big you know it's huge. georgia i mean A big part of it is because of like the special person that Kano was. um I think he was really enigmatic that, you know, he drove the popularity because of who he was in a lot of ways. But also just it was an effect of martial arts and people saw that ah very quickly. ah So because of his like kind of rise within Japanese sports popularity and just as an educator, he becomes actually the first Asian man to be part of the International Olympic Committee. So the first Asian member of the IOC. He didn't really have a lot of interest in getting judo into the Olympics necessarily from what I understand.
00:28:28
Speaker
But he did organize an exhibition of judo. and People, once again, as soon as they saw it, they were like, judo is awesome. like And they were ah they were going like, OK, we need to get this into the Olympics. but This also was a big part of how it became ah really popular like post World War Two. um And it was in 1964. where it officially became an Olympic sport. Tokyo Olympics was the first in 1964. Yeah. So once again, we talk about how young of a sport it really is. And now that it's in the Olympics, you know, Kano did a lot to standardize rules early on, but those rules have definitely evolved throughout the years. I do want to mention that it was adopted into the Paralympics in 1988 and women's judo entered the Olympics in 1992.
00:29:19
Speaker
The first women's world championship was held in 1980. So that was a long time coming, it sounds like. um I'm not sure how um the popularity of judo among women like Ebb didn't kind of flowed throughout the years. It'd be very curious to know like what that looked like, but probably not something super well documented. At least I didn't find anything out about that. but Do you have ah very many women at your, at your dojo? Nigel? ours is also a mainly a jujitsu gym. So yeah, so we actually do, we actually do have a good amount of women that come and participate after practice, they'll come and they'll do judo. So yeah, i it's like in judo, like lends itself very much to like mixed competition in that regard. Uh, or it's like super easy to to to train with the women and not like overpower them just because you're stronger than them.
00:30:17
Speaker
there's like a lot of emphasis on grips there's a lot of emphasis on like techniques so there is a good there is a good crossover between like our our men's team and our women's team. but I did kind of pull out a couple names and Nigel you might want to add to this here you know if we're thinking about who are like some of the best judokas ever a name that comes up for the women a lot is Ryoko Tani she once Won two Olympic gold seven world golds for men more modern of an example I think is Teddy Reiner from France three Olympic golds three And 12 world golds. Yeah, it's going forward for its fourth going first fourth. Right? I saw that It's just wild and like yeah, a lot of people are saying that Reiner is like the best ever at least on paper, right? Do you have anything to add to that conversation Nigel? I think
00:31:07
Speaker
like from a long jivvy standpoint here at Reiner's up there but like the old like the the big like the first couple of guys that like were really good i can't one of them can't remember their names but like oh no right now Shohei oh no he just retired he's in that conversation there's two siblings right now uh a brother and sister they're gonna definitely at the end of it being the conversation for to the grace ever to do judo and like it's really hard Right now, um it's really hard to not be the best ever and not be from Japan.
00:31:43
Speaker
Um, that like it's very, it's like very frowned upon. It's like saying like the best wrestler or like the best rapper ever is some guy in London. You're like, okay, come on. What are we doing? yeah like ah Um, but that's not true. And I think and just it just goes to show you how, how the sport of judo grows so much. I'm like one of the biggest upsets ever. This is the first Olympic games and they opened the vision. Um, Really good guy. I don't want to butcher his last name Kamenaga. He was like a crusher He's gonna beat everyone he was in like open categories like no way if you wait in you wait 60 kilos you might end up fighting someone who's like 99 kilos, but there's a really good guy if he gets beat in the final by someone from the Netherlands, so it's like Just a shit like goes to show you like how much the sport grew so fast and they were during that time like
00:32:40
Speaker
Everyone from like the sport originating in Japan, Japan dominates, they still do. They dominate Judo. And this guy from the Netherlands who like just believe in the technique ends up beating like one of the better Judocas of all like in that time period, one of the better Judocas of all time. So it's hard to stay on top. Well, let
Judo Match Dynamics
00:33:01
Speaker
me ask you this. Let's get into a little bit more about like, Hey, what does a judo match look like? Right? What can we expect when we sit down and we watch some judo? um Nigel, do you want to talk a little bit maybe about the scoring system? Scoring system? Very complicated. There's, okay. So um I'm going to break this down a little bit better, but there's really three ways to win a judo a judo match. um One is by Epone.
00:33:28
Speaker
an E-Pawn is just a very forcible throw to somebody's back. So if I throw you, you land on your back, and that's the E-Pawn match over. um i like it I like comparing Judo to sword fighting. Like an actual sword fight, if you get stabbed or you get cut, it can it can be over. But if you get nicked, you're gonna be damaged, but you can still fight. But if you get E-Pawned, if you get stabbed or you get cut across your throat or something like that, it matches over. and then there's something also called a wazari and a wazari is like think of like a correct throw in wrestling during our darkest time of our wrestling scoring formats think of a correct throw but with intent so I throw you and you don't land on your back but you do you did lose your balance from my throw you did land on your side and you're on your rib cage or you know you landed on your hand first and you kind of scooted over
00:34:27
Speaker
Judo is very simple to score because the moves are so old There's no there's no one's inventing new moves. No one's doing new technique. It's like very traditional So it's super easy to score. But if you score a Wazari, it's like half the Ipan and then They're also techniques on the ground, which is called naiwaza, which is essentially jujitsu but a former jujitsu in wrestling um there are strangulations and there's like, but there's no like joint, a lot of joint manipulation. You can do sh straight arm locks and stuff like that. And you can almost do almost any choke that isn't like gonna like cause extreme harm. So you can win by submission and you can win by, um, by holding someone down. And I cannot remember, forgive me, I do not remember the Japanese word for a holdout, but it's it's essentially a pin, right?
00:35:22
Speaker
It's essentially a pin. If you hold them down for 10 seconds, you score a wazari. And if you hold them down for 20 seconds, you score two wazaris, matches over. Two wazaris wins a match, E-Pawn matches over. So let's say if I i do some Hashiwaza, which is a foot sweeping technique. I foot sweep you, you land on your side, and then I hold you down in a pin. It'll be half a point for the wazari for the foot sweep. And then it was already for holding you down for 10 seconds. Let's say I hold you down for 10 seconds. You would get back to our feet and then I put sweat you and you let it on your side and I would score a was sorry. I would still, so there's like, oh, it doesn't have to, there's any combination of those work. Any combination of those work. You really have like three, there's really like three separate techniques that you can do. Um,
00:36:16
Speaker
like naiwaza is on the ground and then there's a like um ashiwaza which is like a lot of foot sweeping techniques and then i think it's like uh nagawaza which is like or nagawaza which is like big throws and other techniques within that that are are all throws so there's only there's like wrestling top bottom neutral essentially right so there's like three ways uh but within those, every technique has a name and every technique has like a traditional name, which is like really cool, um really cool about Judo. Some I'm, I wondering like, so I watched ah last year's world finals of France versus Japan. So some I'm wondering ah within the rules, you know, when like someone goes for a throw, nobody, no person lands on their side, right? Both, both are,
00:37:11
Speaker
You know, one person just lands on their knees. They just stand them up or after that. Right. It's sort of like a slip right now. kind of There's it kind of depends because if I throw you and some people do that, like I'm better at jujitsu sometimes. And depending on who I'm going against, I'm better at jujitsu than I am at judo. So sometimes I'll do like a sacrifice throw to like, just get us to the math. And then if I, if I initiated the throw and I stay down, we're We're staying down. It's just like freestyle. You get a couple of seconds to work. You got to be progressing. You got to be progressing. As soon as you stop, they're going to, they're super quick on the gun. You could be down there for two seconds sometimes. They're like, all right, come on. Let's go. So maybe they go to their stomach and if you jump on it right away and you look like you're working for a rear naked or something like that, then they're like, okay, let's let it play out. yeah But if it's like, you're like, hey, he's tucked his elbows in already. Let's just stand back up. Yeah.
00:38:08
Speaker
but If I'm progressing and even if even if it's like a centimeter I'm progressing they're like, all right, let's keep it going So sometimes people get a little frustrated They'll be like they'll look up and be like this and all of a sudden you can cinch it in a little deeper Like real bad water So it's it's really you have to be working really fast You have to be chaining moves really quick if you're trying to get a submission And then, so it's on like a 14 meter mat, essentially, ah traditionally a tatami mat, right? or Yeah, it's a square shape. um And, you know, you're wearing a judogi. And judogis tend to be a little bit ah tighter weave, have a little bit more heft to them. yeah much Much thicker on the lapel than a traditional jujitsu gi, for sure. It's going to take a lot of, a lot of, I guess, stress, right? Yeah. um Okay.
00:39:01
Speaker
Yeah, you can probably buy the cheapest on sale jujitsu gi. We won't turn anyone around. Yeah, we won't we won't send you out of the door. If you wear jujitsu gi as a practice, that's fine. That's fine. But in competition, yeah, you don't feel like now we do the yeah you have to do like the entire Video or audio this is an audio medium But like you have to do it like an entire check where you stick your arms out They have like this little device like to measure you have to be like within a certain parameter between your wrist only this much of your wrist can be exposed even on your pants like um ah Your pants you like you can only have this much of your ankle showing because it all has to be it's super uniform Super uniform in that way is that hard to to get one that fits you like that. I if you're serious about it if you're serious about judo you're getting yourself tailored you know that's that i getting your judo The day before competition you're getting your ah your judogi like you're getting a starch like I i'm i fought some people It's still called fighting but like i so I fought some people in judo before or it's like I
00:40:13
Speaker
This stuff is like cardboard because it's so like starched. Yeah, I will say judo geese like when you just dudes wearing them like it's drip like judo geese look good. They look good. Oh, the um the Japanese brand, the Shizuno brand, all those with the gold, the ones that like if you qualify for the Olympics, they'll give you like a gold one in a competition. It looks so good. They look good. look good It looks so good. it's like an all white with like gold trim final singlet you're like oh man that looks really good so now when it comes to matches like what's the usual length of a match six minutes six minutes and then you got your golden score right that's essentially overtime which is like untimed you're not getting you're not going to have like a 20 minute golden score because like big
00:41:04
Speaker
Kind of like freestyle wrestling like if there's no point scored someone gets a warning and if the second round that next person gets a warning Or you know, if someone gets put on the shot clock to another another way you know The way you can win is like by this disqualification which it happens a lot at the highest level It's called you get cheetos and cheetos are like stalling points or penalty points and you get two cheetos You're done. Yeah, where's it three? I think you can get two cheetos yeah Yeah, I think you get two Cheetos you get your third one you're done. So it's like um So you get so once you once you're getting the golden score usually both guys have at least one Cheeto um And then it's like all right you gotta like the first person into like if I if you're not being active if I try to throw you and and It isn't a complete throw and I stand back up and I try to throw you right again. They'll call we'll call you Cheeto So that's ah like that's like a lot of strategy and in a regulation
00:42:01
Speaker
if you like try to throw you three times in a row with no attempt from you, automatic judo. I mean, like any good grappling art, there's got to be something in there for being passive, right? Yeah. So
Transitioning from Wrestling to Judo
00:42:13
Speaker
when you when did you start judo? ah two thousand 2020 during the painting. Okay, so you hadn't done judo before like your wrestling experience. No. um So coming into judo, I want, I had two questions. One, I wanted to hear your perspective on having to learn the grip game because I think that's something that's, you know, just obviously very, it it seems very different ah from a wrestler's perspective. So I wanted to first ask you about that. Like how, did how did you react to that? How did you, uh, deal with that or improve on that? Yeah. Well, I reacted at first very poorly to say the least. Uh, I used to like read like something from about wrestling. It's just like, I do not care. Like.
00:42:58
Speaker
your dominant grip is not better than my dominant grip like I'm just gonna beat you out I don't care and it's like that wrestling mentality and then it was like oh wait I actually can't move or like yeah like they're stalling me out because like I'm not being able to throw because they're killing my grips or they're like catching my sleeve and pinning it and I'm losing on Cheetos and stuff like that um this is a very very hard trend to very very hard transition very hard transition but once you practice it I would say it's like a very sharp learning curve your first two or three weeks but if you can like really and mind you my first two or three weeks I was doing like national tournaments like I was showing up in my white belt in the like black belt division and people were like what's this kid doing I was like and I'm winning matches and they're like okay but like my
00:43:51
Speaker
my experience with judo, I like literally just headfirst dive into it and like was very dumb, but I learned a lot. And if I could go back over and do it again, I would probably do it the exact same way, but like yeah I learned grips. I'm still very bad at beating grips right now. I can get to my grips really well, but if you beat me to the grip, I'm going to be in a little bit of trouble. Did did you have like a good upper body game in wrestling? Yeah. OK, yeah, because it seems I'm thinking I'm like it seems like it would have been really tough to make that transition so quickly if if you were like a very upper body focused at the start. It's not like you get to be out there hitting low singles on people. and You know used to be able to. You used to be able to hit. we're Oh, we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about that. they They're saying it's coming back. They're saying it's coming back after this Olympic cycle. So I'm like, I'm going to go again.
00:44:49
Speaker
Well, hey, before we talk about that, we'll talk about that. um I also wanted to hear this from you. So I grew up like doing some karate, some martial arts and stuff before getting to wrestling, right? And first thing you learn, first class, do you know what I'm about to talk about, Nigel? You're smiling. First thing you learn. No, no, I mean, ah in like martial arts or probably in judo as well. Is breakfalls, right? Oh, yes breakfalls. Yes So totally ignored for the most part in wrestling at least in my experience I hardly know any coaches that spent any time on it to the point where I'm a little skeptical of The necessity for breakfalls. Yeah, I wanted to hear what you thought about that I think in wrestling the continuation of
00:45:37
Speaker
does not like necessitate a need to learn how to break fall. I think as you become a better wrestler, you learn how to give up on a shot or give up on being defending a shot, building down, getting to your base, building them back up. Um, and I think that's better taught technique wise, like how to defend a double, like how to, like, how to get it, like once you get taken down, what's the next step type of stuff? and judo if you do not know how to break fall you're not going to like imagine coming to practice and I'm gonna I got hey, what are you working on the day Nigel? I'm doing 600 Uchimadas get ready imagine taking 600 Uchimadas what I'll learn how to break fall you're gonna be extremely sore 600 is such an exaggeration maybe 50 like if I'm doing Uchikomis all the idea I can do Uchikomis all day but actual the actual throwing technique
00:46:34
Speaker
Um, the actual Nagi Waza technique being thrown. Yeah. If you don't know, if you, or if you'd have someone who was like a big high velocity thrower, I think someone like Dylan Ness or Quinn, Quinn, right? I would also side note, I would have loved to see those two guys do judo. I would have a lot of, I think they'd be so electric. I think like David Tarot, like he does judo and he's like, he just won the African open. He's so good. Like, um, the African open. Yeah. After he opens open to anybody. and Okay. Okay. He's open to anybody. You can just go. He's so good in like, he's so talented. He wrestled at American. Yeah. joy dance I mean, yeah that was, he was the mayor of, uh, I mean, I don't remember what city it was that year when he got what fourth, but yeah, dude, I was my first, jobve that was my first since he double A's and I, we wrestled him that year too. And I like was like cheering for him the light.
00:47:31
Speaker
more so than, I don't want to say this out loud, but like at some points, like more so than my own teammates. It was so, so electric. He always put on his show, but I, um, back to break falls. Yeah. Uh, it doesn't make sense to teach a break fall in wrestling because like you're still in danger. right like you land like okay now this guy's throwing a power half on you you're like trying to slap you trying to break your fault like you just give you like you're exposing you that guy's gonna like run a power half on you it's like good night Raleigh dude like but
00:48:04
Speaker
But yeah, breakfalls are super important in judo. Just like if you're goingnna if you wanna be serious and you wanna last a long time and be competitive, you gotta to learn how to break fall. That brings up to two
Philosophy of Mutual Benefit in Judo
00:48:15
Speaker
interesting things or two thoughts I had. One of the ones that I had like reading about this, where I thought it was kind of interesting how like, again, it was see it less like a folk style and more of like a training regimen that I thought was really interesting. ah Reading Kano Jiguro's book, One of the things, one of the quotes that was like really emphasized was the concept where, I forgot exact wording, but he said like, uh, all practice should be like mutually beneficial. Yes. And it was, it was a quote that I read that I was sort of reading it and I'm like, yeah, I don't know. That says sounds about right. I don't know why it wouldn't be that way. And reading more, their, uh, historical accounts of how practices were done, uh, before the Kodacon, where.
00:49:02
Speaker
There were accounts where they said like, you know, the higher up people in the gym, you know, the higher ranking people would just have a practice where they just throw the lower ranking people the entire time. Like if you're new, if you're on the lower rung, like you're just getting all you do at practice is get thrown. You never work on throws. You only get thrown. And I can imagine. That's you know interesting for two ways. One, obviously you've got to be break falling pretty good. If yeah your whole experience for what? how would the first See, that's where it came from. You've got to know how to break out out of rap fall for sure. Your first year of Judo is just you getting thrown every single day. it's got ah it's I would imagine you'd have to have a pretty good break fall. But then two, it was interesting that, um yeah, I guess one of his i guess innovations or one of his changes was
00:49:54
Speaker
of breaking out of that a little bit. Yeah, he was a big proponent, like in mutual, we have that on our wall, like in practice, like we're a weird gym, we got like four guys that are nationally ranked, and then the rest are like people who want to get better at Jiu Jitsu. As a higher belt, when the lower belts come in, is it kind of, am I gonna be like, is today just a straight technique day for me where I'm gonna focus on myself getting better, or is today gonna be something where I can plant a seed in this guy's head that he can be good at judo and now I have an even more permanent practice partner versus like me being the crap out of him and then him being like yep Nigel's good at judo like I want to be that good but if I like so if I take three steps back in practice for a week and we really focus on our lower belts getting better right at the throwing techniques like at throwing techniques or throwing techniques once you learn them you learn them
00:50:52
Speaker
But then if I can teach a guy how to break my grips, how to fight my grips, how to not, like that's so important because when you get out in competition, that's what it feels like. Some people break grips differently, some people get through their grips differently. So if you can get like a, you know, varieties of spice of life type of deal, then. It's like super important and it's always like how many times you've been in a Ralph's in practice where you're like I just got my ass kicked today I didn't learn anything like that's not good for you and that's not necessarily good for your partner if they're already better than you and it's like how can I balance me getting my purest workout in pushing myself blowing my cardio
00:51:33
Speaker
Also teaching them like the Lord also like educating us more about at the same time and when you can kind of find that sweet spot It's like it's very powerful and they come back nalo practice now and it's like You know, they're like, oh, I thought you were just gonna bomb me through the mat because I said like we show your highlights in practice sometimes I'm just like nah, dude. I'm like I'm super nice. I'm super kind like I'm not sure I'm actually getting like a little softer my older age like like not throwing people when I should but it and It is. It comes out in the wash, as they would say. I guess that leads kind of to my next question. I was going to ask you, like, what do you think that wrestling can learn from Judo and vice versa? Like, what
Comparing Judo and Wrestling Techniques
00:52:13
Speaker
aspects of wrestling do you think Judo is missing, if any, and and was what aspects that you see in Judo that, you know, wrestling culture can incorporate? Yeah. um What are the the the things that um
00:52:24
Speaker
but they were talking about the what I was reading about like the kata versus the randori and that mix and like the mutual beneficial thing it reminded me of the story of like Scottish versus English soccer where I forget which way it was I think the English had it the right way but anyways like a like a Scottish guy went to England like he's like a footballer and he went to England and he observed their practices and he's like What do you guys, this is crazy. You guys are, every time you practice, you practice with the ball. They're like, what are you talking about, man? He's like, in, in Scotland, we only practice with the ball the day before the game, because like the idea was that it like, it brought you, uh, some kind of, you were more eager to get after it once the game came over. And then in the, in the anecdote, it's like,
00:53:16
Speaker
And you know, maybe it's apocryphal or something, but an anecdote, it's like, then when they got back, when he got back to Scotland, he was like, guys, we're going to change everything with this. Every, every day of practice, we're going to practice with the ball and it completely, they got so much better and it changed. I mean, it's not a like a one for one, but there was a little piece of reading that where I'm like, I'll bet there were some things that he was, he was observing in practice that he was like, there's gotta be a better way to do it. There's gotta be a. a way to accelerate people's understanding better. music Collaboration is so important. Can you ask the question one more time? Oh yeah, it was just a what kind of stuff do you see that like within judo that you feel like wrestlers and yeah and vice versa, what what kind of cultural or even technical ah commerce should be happening between these two sports? Yeah, for me, from coming from wrestling to judo,
00:54:15
Speaker
My aggression was like, but gift that would give people the most problem. They'd be like, oh, like all this dude's coming out ripping grips, doesn't even care. like I was kind of like, just kind of spammy. um i would i would do I would like spam a lot of like a attacks like all the time. So in the inverse, what I would have wished I would have learned from Judo was like the emphasis on technique. And I remember like, I don't know if you guys know Tommy Gantt, he was my wrestling partner. Yeah, yeah yeah he's ah he's assistant coaching now at NC State, but he was my wrestling partner. And like our drills were like, and I'm not joking, 97% live. And I say 97 is a very specific number, because we would take turns attacking. And that was the only reason it wasn't like fully live.
00:55:10
Speaker
right so like um So when me and Tommy would train together it'll literally just be we're drilling and we're having a live wrestling practice essentially and then We would get from our drilling technique and it's like we're just we weren't drilling we were just wrestling live we didn't learn anything new about the technique we were doing we were just You know just kind of two alpha dogs trying to be I want to be the top dog He wants to be the top dog like so That part, I wish, like from Judo, I wish we would have practices where it's just literally like, it's caught up. Like, everyone lines up. We're gonna tell a story with your wrestling technique. Like, if you wouldn if you if you're wrestling in nationals, show me what it looks like on this guy. Look, okay, here's my high C. Make everyone, like, okay, that's a pretty good high C. You can probably take somebody down with that and then be like, here's my sweep single. I don't know about that one. But like. The story got bad.
00:56:08
Speaker
Yeah, exactly exactly so I like those two things that we can find like a perfect mix of like My aggression came from the way I drilled which is an oxymoron to my overall statement but like I was I Sometimes in judo, there's a lot there's almost too much patience. There's almost too much emphasis on Like very traditional technique to where like me I'm trying to make a match like as long as possible as a dirty not like not from like a moral standpoint But like ah as dirty as possible like so far as like is ugly judo You're taking him in the deep water taking him in a deep dragon. I'm not taking her dragging her in the deep waters but um, I And I think a lot of if there, if there was like some cross training, I think every wrestler would benefit from not necessarily doing judo, the watching judo, a high level of judo practice. That's kind of fits into one question I had, uh, about sort of the difference. I mean, obviously there's, there's grips, uh, obviously that's number, that's going to be number one, but.
00:57:16
Speaker
uh, the sorts of throws that you have in judo versus the sorts of throws that you have in upper body wrestling, like the sorts of things that maybe like David Tarrou was hitting versus the sorts of things that you see Austin Gomez hitting all the time. I feel like the, like the vernacular of what The throws that every wrestler knows, every wrestler knows how to do, or at least can conceive of, even if it's not in my toolkit, I know kind of what an inside and an outside trip, a lat drop looks like. I kind of, I can conceive of it. I think like, oh, if I practiced it a bunch, I could figure that out. And I watch Judo, I watch a lot of those throws and I'm like, what the fuck is going on? That is, in yeah I feel like it it's a radically different movement. So much so that I,
00:58:07
Speaker
There are guys that you see that are really good upper body in wrestling, but I feel like the ones that I see that like, confound people the most are the ones that hit what looks like judo technique. Like David Terao did this. There were two years where Dom Demas. Dom Demas, big, yeah, big judo guy. Oklahoma. What a callback. and And Bryce Andonian did this. Oh my god, that's another guy. So I just wanted to hear your perspective on what do you think judo throws, let's say like no like a no-gi judo throw, like one that would be in the context that you're hitting it in wrestling, what is the difference versus kind of arc our classic wrestling throws that you know we hit? Man, that's a really good question. But I'm going to tell you, it's almost one and the same.
00:59:00
Speaker
um But there's like, there's like techniques that involve gripping the sleeve that create throws that are really hard to do. Obviously, because there's no jackets, there's no, um, key tops in wrestling. But the thing, the thing about judo, every single technique has a name, right? So like when you, when you shoot a single, like a penetration, you got to do your penetration step. You got to make sure your back's up. You got to make sure your head straight or your your head's up and your back is straight. Got better reverse.
00:59:31
Speaker
right when you those techniques like me Even saying that in judo those words like they have traditional words like Like a picture. I don't know. I'm off the top of my head. I'm sorry, but like ah that's why I'm not a black belt again but The way they teach it like it's been tougher so long the same way that every move has a name for the process of hitting said moon but um how they differ right is that you're wearing a jacket so it's like really hard once someone gets to their grip is really hard not to get thrown because you're like wearing you're literally wearing your trap you're you're trapped in their throw your key becomes their weapon essentially um
01:00:18
Speaker
But like, you mentioned Bryce Adonian, and I'm an NC State guy, and now that he's done wrestling, i he's probably my favorite Virginia Tech wrestler of all time. He was the best. Oh, dude, I hate to say that. He incriminated things being said on this podcast. Oh, dude, I love like him, Joey Dance, and Carter. I can't remember. What's his... Devin Carter? Devin Carter, don't tell him that, too. like I think I got in like a little tussle with Devin Carter in a way in line one time. And I was just like, I remember coming like, guys, and I think your asshole now. But but like,
01:00:57
Speaker
I definitely, I definitely from afar was like, I enjoy watching him wrestle. And like, I was a little older than him too. So it was just like, like about a year or two. So I would always be like, Like don't fanboy don't fanboy don't feel like the him like I would always like watch him love watching him Russell. I love watching There's another guy he was rusty Russell 157 at Virginia Tech He was really good he always made to the semis and lost or always made to the quarters and laws and like I hate to say it but like the only like
01:01:32
Speaker
Diff-reaching feature that I can think of him right now is that he was Asian, but I can't Jesse Donk. There we go. I came there We go. So like he was like another guy. I love watching him Russell, but but it's up but you're missing him I think those guys would have been a little like Bryson Gomez probably would be great you know because because they got that aggression they know how to throw in their unorthodox and it's like they can wheeze a lot of throws and turn your throw into their throw so i question sorry I'm going to do a little subsection of the same question. Uh, why do you think we don't see Uchimadas more in wrestling? Like the, the general sort of step in wizard kick. I feel like that's the one that really is so prevalent in judo that you almost never see in wrestling, except for guys like Andonian, uh,
01:02:22
Speaker
Terao hit it on, he hit it on. He hit it on dance. right Yeah, he did not tell you twice. so you see a bit on um on that god That was awesome. Why do you think, is it like the grip, like being able to not grip that far side or is there a more specific reason, you know, you don't see it in in wrestling. I'm gonna, I'm gonna liken it to this. I'm gonna liken it to this. The Uchi, Uchi-Mata technique works in wrestling the same way a single leg take down will work in Jujitsu. just They just don't know how to do it. They just don't know how to do it well. um I think we don't see it. We don't see a lot of it because no there's not a lot of crossover from guys who grew up doing judo who became really good at wrestling and then have the opportunity to coach wrestling, to be imprinted, to imprint their wrestling on people. So you don't see a lot of it.
Leg Grab Rule Changes in Judo
01:03:15
Speaker
But Uchimanas, man, that's like my my main move is I'm right. i
01:03:21
Speaker
Russell right-handed right leg lead, but I do judo left leg lead because that's very maybe 95% of all judokas are right even if they're left-handed did they play right-handed so I play left-handed just cuz like It gives me it make it helps it helps bridge the gap in my inexperience because now we're kind of even because you don't see a lot of left-handed judokas and All right, well, we're talking a little bit about this marriage. We got to bring up the leg grab rule. And the background on this is
01:03:56
Speaker
Uh, you know, back in the 2020, 2012 era when wrestling was kind of being threatened to be taken out of the Olympics, um, they were not the only sport that was kind of up on the chopping block or that was kind of getting pressure from the IOC c to make some changes. Judo was a big thing there. So judo, uh, like wrestling had to kind of do this like internal, you know, kind of look inside and say, well, how are we going to define ourselves? And wrestling, you know, we got rid of like ball grab, we changed up some takedown stuff. kind of reinvented our sport. I think most people agree for the better in terms of just, you know, how, how is this gonna, the presentation of our competition? Ball grab, worst era of wrestling. Terrible, terrible. Not to cut you off, but I have to say. Unwatchable. Probably, ah probably our worst era of wrestling was the ball grab era. But so ah something that happened with Judo was, I guess there was pressure from what I understand to kind of differentiate itself a little bit from wrestling.
01:04:54
Speaker
And because what was happening was, you know, leg attacks are very effective. And so Judoka were using leg attacks and that caused their stances to be more bent over. And it looked a lot like wrestling for a lot of people, right? ah So it just didn't seem like enough of a different sport. And the solution that you folks came up with in the IJF, is that what it's called? IJF? Yep. Yeah, the solution they came up with was to severely limit leg grabs and eventually just take them out, gel completely. Yeah. And this created a very different sport where they're standing up tall, more tall, not completely tall, obviously.
01:05:36
Speaker
um in a much bigger focus on the the beautiful throws that Judo is so known for, right? it's It's kind of trying to push it in that direction. And there's old heads out there that you know want to bring that leg grab back. And I'm sure a lot of people who have ah more of a wrestling background and might be transitioning to Judo ah probably would love to have a little bit more leg grab opportunities. And you said they're thinking about possibly bringing it back. Tell us about that, Nigel. um So from what my understanding, which is not great, um, is that they, they're. They, some competitions already have allowed you to do like grabs traditional, the big, like all Japan's, which is like the big cool rest or the big cold judo tournaments in Japan. They allow leg grabs too. Um, the thing with the leg grab though, from a scoring standpoint is you still have to, they still have to hit their back with force. So like.
01:06:35
Speaker
double legs weren't popular so you would see people hitting like low singles and like picking in entire people's bodies up off of a single and like putting them on their back look look like like a like a cartoon fight scene where like you catch someone's leg you pick them up and slam them down oh so it's just kind of like uh this kind of it's still very hard if you can go back and watch like in that era, like judo lake rats, you'll see it did. They did not look like singles. They didn't look like singles. They looked like weird way grabbing throwing techniques. Um, so just very strange like that. But I, to the point of, I don't know if you can hear my dogs. No, you're good. You're good. We're far enough in your listener. is You know what? Let's start over for the IOC.
01:07:31
Speaker
pertain to get out They had wrestling, freestyle wrestling, Greco wrestling, and Judo. And they got independent people from different sports in the IOC. They were like, really? They look the same. So theres that's was that's where it came, when they were like, okay, we're on our, we're going to outrun, outrun Laker. apparently Some competitions are letting them come back. The bigger ones are like soft launching them, like in the kids' division. So now it's like, okay, like the Liberty Bell tournaments, like the Super 32's equivalent, stuff like that, but for adults. They're letting them they're letting go in the kids' division, the in the younger division, so it's like, okay, like this is something we need to start teaching again, I guess, if our kids are gonna be doing it. So, we'll see. I don't think it's gonna come back just because
01:08:26
Speaker
you know, you can get reput jeopardy with the new IOC stance, but ah from being an Olympic sport that is so it becomes I could see it coming back in international competition. That's not the Olympics. Yeah, so I don't know. Is this ah is this a pro leg grab podcast? I think I'm lean. I'm pro. Yeah, I'm pro leg. You couldn't do like a like a blast double and sit them to their butt and like get, you know, you pawn off that rally. You'd have to they have to contact flat is what you're saying. Well, you could blast double but like it's so you're still wearing a jacket. So like imagine like imagine me grabbing you by like your lapel in your wrist like but imagine a collar tie with the wrist but now I literally you you can't peel that off. So yeah, you'd have to hit it from space. Yeah, you have to and there's no in this like from the bun. Oh, really interesting.
01:09:23
Speaker
Like they're encouraging engagement before the, an attack. Yeah. Interesting. That's good to know. Yeah. Yeah. We're not, it wasn't like you were but before they changed the rule. Everyone was, was coming out there hitting like snatch singles and going pipe finish. Like, cause I wouldn't have scored points. like that would have That would have scored. That would have scored a pipe. A pipe finish would have scored. So is it like, because again, for if you, if you sit them to their butt, Does that count in the same like, what would that score? would publish more wasa The Zari. Keep in mind, keep in mind, ah a run the pipe finish only works in wrestling because you don't want to get taken down, right? You can get taken down in judo as long as you don't hit your back. Or excuse me, you can get you can get taken down in judo as long as you don't hit your back or your side. So it's like, yeah well, you got my leg in here. Oh, I'm going to fall down. Well, and they do have like,
01:10:19
Speaker
ah Penalties for purposefully slipping right for purposefully like because it's essentially being passive, right? Yeah avoiding a throw. Yeah But it's hard you can disguise it. Yeah, it's very hard to say like he had my leg in the air and Like I didn't put a wizard like I didn't put a wizard in so I can't really run the pipe And then you try to run the pipe and I like whoa put the room my hands in the air I lose my balance and I fall like to my knees and Or even if I fall to my knees and like turn towards you, it's still, that's still very, that's just still an appropriate response to not get penalized. Gotcha. Yeah. And like, I had noticed that there's a lot of stuff that I'm just like, not familiar with. Um, I saw someone kind of do a duck under at one point and then they got penalized for it. And that was something hard for me to kind of wrap my head around on that. I guess that what the argument was they were kind of ah avoiding, um, like the hold or the engagement by doing that. It's interesting.
01:11:18
Speaker
This is the like it's very discouraged to attack from space. So they want grips most of the time. It kind of depends on the technique. They want grips most of the time before you go. Because if I foot sweep you, right i don't that's from open, most of it not all the time. But it can be from open. I just flick it real big and I catch you. They're OK with that. They don't and don't like invasive technique, I would say. I don't think a ah duck hunter is But like in the word is is duck. So like she like the technique is there's a ducking. So like that can be considered a little bit evasive. Yeah. You can't you also can't like lock hands like as like bear like from a from like a bear hugging technique. You can lock hands interesting like if I like high dive and I lock hands, that's that's that I end up in a sheet. Oh, but like you just grabbed the back of the gi. I can gi like that. Interesting.
01:12:14
Speaker
That's so interesting. You can, you can lock hands too. I don't want to, I don't want to to, you can lock hands. You can't go straight to like a bear hug. Okay. Oh, without first taking grip. Yeah. So like maybe you dragged off of a grip and then went to lock, went to body lock from there. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. But you would still kind of have to be like, like, You can't, you can't, the the throne can't start via bear hug. So I can start like this, get you off the ground and I can get you a bear hug. Okay. ah This is me saying that judo is super hard to, it's super easy to officiate, but like, but like, that's not a problem. Like only when like, that's a huge technique in Georgia. They're really big on the lifting throws and things like that. But even they don't, even they don't do that. and Okay.
01:13:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's like anything. We got, there's plenty of silly, like very small gray area details and in folk style wrestling. So, yeah
Encouragement to Practice Judo
01:13:20
Speaker
you know, that's, it's one of those things where you're just like, you know what, don't worry about that. We'll theyll learn that as it as it comes. or go yeah All right. Anyone, uh, any other questions or anything we want to add before we close it out, fellows? Try to find your local judo gym and, or dojo and get in there. It vary, your mileage may vary, but how practice is run. Sometimes like when I was first starting they had me with like little kids so I can learn your techniques I'm like sitting crisscross applesauce Bowing to the construct there like learning kind of break fall like literally writing stuff into like Japanese like learn the technique and stuff but if you know some people like that and if you don't yeah, I would probably go to a different dojo but uh There there were there's there's judo dojos or gyms probably in every state Probably closer than you think
01:14:12
Speaker
So just try to find one if you're interested, go out watch a practice and maybe participate in some practices and we'll just have a fun get time.