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Mongolian Wrestling (Bökh) - Ep6 - Archaic Wrestling
87 Plays1 year ago
Tighten your Zodog and join Sasha and Evan as they cover another awesome folkstyle...
Music by Josh Kasen
Twitter @ArchaicWrestle
archaicwrestling@gmail.com
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Transcript
00:00:18
Speaker
Welcome,
Introduction to Mongolian Wrestling
00:00:19
Speaker
welcome back, everybody. This is Archaic Wrestling and this is Sasha and Evan, and we are feeling pretty enthusiastic today. We're looking forward to this one. It was a fun time researching it, and it's really, you know, a deeper topic than you might expect. But yeah, we're excited to talk about Mongolian wrestling today and some of the history behind it. But before
Sasha's BJJ Training & Techniques
00:00:44
Speaker
we get into that, Sasha, I wanted to check in with you last time.
00:00:48
Speaker
We had a little podcast we had a nice visit from Mike and you mentioned to us that we are that you were Changing up your BJJ training Because you were using too much wrestling Right and you gave yourself some limitations To stay on the mat a little bit more on your back specifically and want to know how that's been going for you It's been going it's been going good. I think I might have gotten
00:01:18
Speaker
Twice is good in just the span of one month just by sitting on my butt. They got a thing going on there, especially with my new job. I've been really tired every day. It has been good to... I don't know. They might have converted me. It's kind of nice being lazy.
00:01:42
Speaker
Oh, you mean you're, you're feeling like you're not, you're feeling more comfortable in the guard and you kind of like the, you know, being able to lay there a little bit. Oh yeah. It is nice. It is, it is really nice. Yeah. You can just to be able to sit down there, you know, sometimes you can wrestle up out of the guard, which is nice. I've realized this too. You don't have to set up a shot. You don't have to do nothing. They just give you that leg. Um,
00:02:10
Speaker
There's a lot there. It's pretty fun. My submissions have gotten a lot better, too. So sometimes it pays to be lazy. Is there a particular submission that you're gravitating towards? Oh, it's all about camoras right now. Yeah. Been working a lot on my camoras and transitioning those into armbars. Yeah, those are nice.
00:02:32
Speaker
Who knows, one day we'll have a Brazilian, whatever it is, what is it called, a necktie one. Peruvian necktie specialist.
Arizona State's Departure from PAC 12
00:02:41
Speaker
Peruvian necktie. As a podcast host here. Well, cool, cool. Well, I mean, that all sounds well and good, but it's not all well and good right now in wrestling world, especially out west where we are. The PAC, the Pacific Athletic Conference.
00:03:01
Speaker
is, uh, in crisis, I have to say, um, you want to tell the folks what happened. Yeah. So we have Arizona state has left the pack 12. They are gone. They have gone to the big 12. And, uh, I think the signals, you know, along with USC, UCLA, I think, uh, UC Berkeley as well, um, you know, for football reasons, um,
00:03:30
Speaker
It seems like we're going to be losing the pack 12 as a, I mean, possibly might be losing the pack 12 as a conference, or at least in wrestling terms, you might be losing it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think even, uh, I heard like the rumblings of Stanford, uh, going to the big 10. Um, yeah, that's, that's something that's a possibility, the strong possibility.
00:03:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's just very clearly that the the conferences is dying very curious where this is gonna go but it's not good for for the schools out west in terms of Finances in terms of prestige like all the stuff that you know is supposed to come with being with within a powerful conference You know and seeing one like the Pac-10 that you know has never been like, you know if you look at all over sports It's not necessarily like
00:04:20
Speaker
you know, killing everybody all the time. But like, it used to be a really powerful conference in a lot of ways. Oh, yeah, just slow descent. Yeah, I mean, making making these kids like travel from Southern California to the east coast, like every week. I mean, it's ridiculous, like, I mean, someone else said it, but yeah, it's it's laying bare the fact that none of this is about student athletes. It's
00:04:49
Speaker
It's not about that at all. I mean, it's basically when you get to like this level of, uh, you know, like D one sports football, especially, but all the other ones that go with it, you know, it's, it's a job.
Missing the Mongolian Wrestling Tournament
00:05:01
Speaker
It's not your, your main job is athletics. And after that you have to. Attempt to maintain being a student athlete. So, I mean, if Stanford's in the big 10, I mean, that'll be interesting because you and me might be able to go see a Penn state dual. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I see some pretty interesting teams.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah. Well, then that's that's the other thing is if it becomes like it, I think it's also a threat to like wrestling staying at some of these schools, though. Also, right. I feel like that's a worry. So it's even even if, you know, Stanford jumps into the Big 10, I think they could do that. They could probably afford that. Yeah. And, you know, maybe they could, you know, keep that alive. But, you know, like
00:05:44
Speaker
I don't know how Cal State Bakersfield is still around in general. I don't know what this is going to do. It's just rough. It's rough. Yeah, because now it's what? Cal State Bakersfield, Little Rock, Arkansas, Oregon State. Do we have Cal Baptist or are they big 12? I don't even remember what was going on with Cal Baptist.
00:06:14
Speaker
So I mean, either way, it's, if, if, especially if Stanford leaves, um, and I hope I mentioned Oregon state, um, if Stanford leaves, it's, it's, I don't know what the, I don't know how you can have a conference with just Oregon state, uh, Cal baker's field and like little rock Arkansas. That's bad. And it would mean like, you know, you will only have one qualifier per weight. You know what I mean? It's, it's like.
00:06:42
Speaker
It's rough. You're it's, it's, it's just bad. It's bad for the pack. Um, yeah, too bad, but what's not too bad. It, well, you know, it is too bad. We missed the national tournament for Mongolian wrestling in July. So once again, it's too bad. We're covering a folk style that has been around a long time is still going on real hard.
00:07:07
Speaker
We just barely missed the actual
Different Styles of Mongolian Wrestling
00:07:09
Speaker
competition. So I'm definitely keeping note of this stuff because I want to see it next year Especially after especially after watching a lot of the footage that we just watched But yeah, Mongolian wrestling or a book as it's a properly referred to It uh, it's pretty cool. It has a
00:07:31
Speaker
Actually, there are a lot of folk styles within the folk style. There's the southern style, there's the western style, there's some that allow touching legs, don't allow touching legs. Some wear jackets, some don't. Some wear leather pants, some don't.
00:07:51
Speaker
Um, they, some, uh, are, uh, some do pins, some don't do pins. It's kind of like all over the place. And it's really interesting, um, to see. So, um, so apparent this like diaspora of wrestling, right? Um, within, of within just a singular, you know, or what we view as a singular culture, right? It's like seeing all these little like subcultures within a sport, within a folk style, like sub folk styles.
00:08:20
Speaker
That's so cool. I thought that's like really fascinating. Yeah. I tried to find a little bit more on some of these other styles and it seems like, you know, bulk and the Nadam festival, you know, that's really the biggest thing. That's where you're going to find the most. Um, but there's tons of smaller events too. And you can, you can find videos of people and all kinds of varying, you know, different types of clothes, uh, really interesting uniforms.
00:08:50
Speaker
it looks like at least one of them seems to be a style with like, primarily like a belt. And you start sort of an over under both holding that belt. So there's a couple different ways that they do this for sure. Yeah, yeah. But like you said, we'll be focusing on kind of the main like uniformed style. And we were mentioning the clothing that they wear, and we can get into that a little bit here. They wear what looks like
00:09:19
Speaker
boots, like leather boots, and those are called the gutal. So they're wearing these boots. They wear kind of like they're, it's usually blue, but it's essentially like tighty whiteys, like little undies, right? Like boy shorts, essentially is kind of how I think of it. And those are called the shoe dog. And then they're wearing essentially a jacket, like a super tight jacket. And that's called the Zodog.
00:09:44
Speaker
Uh, and so, you know, these, this clothing is there essentially, um, to allow people to grab, right? You're allowed to grab these clothes, um, in order to gain leverage over your opponent. Um, and I don't know how it looked to you, but to me, it felt like a mix between judo, sumo, and freestyle.
Debate on Ancient Wrestling Petroglyphs
00:10:07
Speaker
Kind of like, I saw elements of all of those in it.
00:10:10
Speaker
Yeah, I saw a lot of, um, you know, I was wondering, anytime you see these different folk styles, you think like, all right, what is the, you kind of wonder what the level of the wrestling is going to be. Um, and what I saw was a lot of like, I think what I saw most was kind of a huge mix, like a really big mix of judo, like a lot of grabbing of the jacket and yeah, like folk or like freestyle wrestling, um, a lot of like.
00:10:39
Speaker
Lot of single leg attacks a lot of under hooks lots of like picks and we'll get into you know, we watched All of the the champion this year's champion. We watched all his matches. It doesn't take that long We'll put it in the description. You can go check him out too But he's got a real real interesting real cool style, too
00:11:01
Speaker
God, and he's a unit too. They're all units. But yeah, they're dudes. They are huge yoked dudes, just like all functional body kind of deal. It's like one of those things where you may not like it, but this is what the ideal male form is. This is what peak performance looks like. Peak male performance. These guys are units. Love it. Yes. Love it.
00:11:28
Speaker
But before we get too much into the now, you know, maybe we should go to the then, right? Um, you were looking a lot at some of the early evidence of, uh, of Mongolian wrestling. Um, and could you share a little bit about what you found? Yeah. So something I was trying to find was, um, with all these things, I, I, I'm really interested in what is the, you know, the furthest down the line, the oldest evidence that we possibly have of any of these things.
00:11:57
Speaker
um so something you'll find if you research uh you know this Mongolian wrestling you'll find this claim a lot of times you'll you'll you see it all over the place that um there are petroglyphs in a certain province that date back to 7000 BC um that show wrestling and some some people say that it shows wrestlers and a crowd watching them um so i did a bunch of research i
00:12:27
Speaker
It was very difficult to find this actual petroglyph. There's almost no citations of it everywhere. Yeah. But, um, I finally found for help too. Yes. So we finally found a picture of it. Um, and I sent it to you, Evan, if you want to take a look at this, I am viewing it now. Um, and my, my very first reaction is just, man, how do they know that that's wrestling?
00:12:54
Speaker
Yes, I mean I do want to know like what what a scholar would specifically say Like what each of these symbols are supposed to mean like I like this. Yeah, like bucket handle looking thing here I don't know what that is Really meant to be you do like very see very obvious depictions of like humanoids, right? Yeah Yeah, I'm not certain
00:13:20
Speaker
If what I'm seeing is wrestling or not, but there might be hints in here that I don't know because I don't know the culture, um, as well as, you know, I would need to, uh, to, to really pick up on the subtleties of, of what is in this, uh, uh, petroglyph. Um, but you know, I guess I, I will maintain the thought, but 7,000 BC. That's really a long time ago. And I'm not saying humans weren't wrestling with each other back then. I'm sure they were.
00:13:49
Speaker
but is what it was specifically what we think of as Mongolian wrestling today or this folk style.
00:13:57
Speaker
I don't know. Is it even the same people that were inhabiting that area where the petroglyphs were found? Or have they migrated? The people that we now call Mongolians, maybe they immigrated in after those petroglyphs were already created. So I don't know. We'll see. It's interesting. It's interesting. I don't know. I have a lot of skepticism around it.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the the oldest that we've found, right, we went over this on the first episode was the cave paintings in Lascaux. Yeah. And those are those date back to about like 15,000 BC. I mean, if you look at those, those also are those there is at least a little bit more like scholarly writing around them. Yeah. So
00:14:48
Speaker
you know, I could place a little bit more trust in that if they say that it's wrestling, you know, I mean, they're primitive shapes, it's hard to depict, you know, wrestling is like, it's, it's motion, it's very hard to depict this stuff. If you asked me to draw wrestling right now, as an untrained person, I'm not sure I would do, you know, so much better than some of these cave paintings anyways, so I'm not saying that, you know, we know they're, they're not or that I'm
00:15:14
Speaker
completely skeptical, but you know, it's interesting and you find this claim on mostly like Mongolian like travel websites. So there is probably, there's a level of like, this is clearly a lot of national pride in this. So, you know, claiming that, you know, your folk style or your, your heritage goes back very far, you know, is a really classic aspect of like,
00:15:44
Speaker
national pride that has, you know, you see it in every country in the world, the claims like things are older than they are sometimes, or, you know, so who knows? Well, we'll put it in the description. So, you know, you can you can take a look, see at it, decide for yourself. And it's especially, it's especially relevant here with it being wrestling and wrestling being such an integral aspect of
00:16:12
Speaker
Mongolian culture like we'll get into it more in a little bit but it's it's been a thing it is is the way in which they celebrate their nation is they have a wrestling tournament like that's what the wrestling is for essentially right yeah yeah it's it's very interesting but you also mentioned that you found some a bronze plaque that is a little bit I think is has a little bit more evidence behind it
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah. So this is, so the, after 7,000 BCE cave paintings, the oldest, next oldest thing I could find, um, it's basically like a bronze belt plaque. So I don't know if they wore it on a belt, um, or it's just the style of, uh, the picture, but it basically is, it's two guys in an over under and, uh, they have their horses behind them.
Wrestling in Mongolian History
00:17:14
Speaker
And so this is from it's part of what we'll you know, we'll see when you look this stuff up. I mean, this is not you know, we're not like geographers or not all of us can be there. There's a lot of screen. Yeah. But there's a especially in this region, there's an enormous amount of like mixing of cultures and stuff. So this was found. These are
00:17:41
Speaker
The wrestlers are of like Xiongnu descent and that is a region sort of in like Western, like Northwestern China, um, part of also like part of the Mongolian plateau. Um, so yeah, so these are like some kind, you know, ethnically, I'm not sure where they were from, but you know, they're clearly part of the, uh, the same region and this shows like wrestling in that same region. So yeah, it's basically.
00:18:12
Speaker
two guys in an over-under and one appears to be grabbing the other's leg with his, the side that would be over. So who knows what that's about. But yeah, anyways, it's kind of interesting. So definitely shows very, very clear on ambiguous signs of wrestling.
00:18:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think it's uh, it's yeah, it's pretty cool Um, but unfortunately there's not a whole lot of uh evidence of just like what wrestle what was going on with wrestling um for a while um until you kind of get more into the uh, the 1200s 13th century and you have a lot of european explorers, uh going around and you know, like marco polo spending time with uh, uh jingus con, um
00:19:00
Speaker
in the early 200s. And you have a lot of Europeans start to write about what the Mongols are doing essentially, right? Yeah. And there's a lot of talk about the wrestling that was going on. And wrestling would be an event, right? They would, it would be to entertain people. It would be just to show national pride, to challenge each other. There was a lot of reasons why someone would wrestle.
00:19:26
Speaker
um yeah the why the mongols would wrestle each other you know as a big part of their martial prowess uh to be a good wrestler yeah so the the next thing we have here is um it's pretty interesting so there is a book called The Secret History of the Mongols and that is the oldest known writing like in Mongolian um that we have access to and basically it was
00:19:53
Speaker
a book that it was after Genghis Khan died, someone in his court was basically commissioned to like write a book about him and his history and his life and then like presented it to his family members. So this is of sort of like it starts off with like a sort of like a mythological description of like the first Mongolian man and then how you could trace
00:20:21
Speaker
uh, Chinggis Khan's descent, you know, from him. So it is of like, you know, sort of middling historical accuracy. Yeah. Yeah. It wouldn't say that everything in it is, is happened, you know, but it's, yeah, he's treated as, as semi-Godlike or even like, as the main God by some like, uh, shamanistic practitioners, right? Like it's, uh, it's really interesting that he's so wrapped up, like even within creation mythology.
00:20:50
Speaker
It's a really interesting look into, I mean, something that it is good at is we can definitely see, uh, Accurate aspects like of their culture things that they were doing. So one thing in this text, there is one, um, Description of like an actual wrestling match. So I'll, I'll read from, you know, there's, there's a couple different translations of this. One of them is like nigh illegible because of it's, it's sort of, uh,
00:21:21
Speaker
pros. I'll read from one that's a little bit easier. But basically, um, there's a passage in here where there is, uh, there's Chinggis Khan and there's a feast with, um, it's them and another tribe called the Jerkans. And there's Belgutei is a great wrestler and he's like the half brother of Chinggis Khan. And he's on his side. Then there is Buriboko.
00:21:50
Speaker
whose name like already means like strong wrestler. Definitely a real guy. Not, not made up for a story. Definitely not made up for the story at all. And basically, so there's, there's a passage on like chapter four paragraph 134, where there's like a feast with, um, yeah, Chinggis Khan and the jerk ins and, uh, on the jerk inside, like a thief steals, um,
00:22:20
Speaker
something like some sort of piece of cloth from the other guy's horses. Bill Gutiye and Buriboko get into it. Bill Gutiye is known as a big wrestler. And it says in it that he always comes with his right arm bare because he's used to wrestling. And then Bill Gutiye hits him with a sword, slashes him on his right arm. And then after that, Bill Gutiye has to tell Chinga's Khan, like, don't kill all these guys.
00:22:48
Speaker
Let's, we're, we're getting along finally for the first time. Our two tribes are, are getting along. Uh, you know, don't worry about it. I'm fine. It's only a flesh wound. Um, and then Chinggis Khan's like, no, I'm going to kill all these guys. And then later after sort of they've like conquered the jerkins in the next couple of paragraphs, there is, um, a passage where Chinggis Khan makes Buriboko and Bilguti, I wrestle each other. And so, um, basically the story here is.
00:23:18
Speaker
Like your dad and your uncle used to. Yeah. He makes them wrestle each other in the court, basically. And there's a story here that Buriboko had on one occasion held Belgueti with one hand, kicking him with one foot, thrown him down, prevented him from moving, and pinned him to the ground. Buriboko had been the tribe's best wrestler. So this is kind of interesting because both
00:23:45
Speaker
This passage in the next talks about pinning. So I do wonder, well, we'll kind of have to take a, see if we think this, you know, what this says about the folk style, if it was always a fall was anything except a hand touching the ground. Right. So then they make them wrestle. And it says, Buriboko, who had never been beaten, allowed himself to be thrown. Belgutei, unable to force him down, took him by the shoulders and climbed up on his rump.
00:24:15
Speaker
And then they use that term because it's like a horse. It's supposed to be demeaning to Buriboko. Belgueti, I looked back out of the corner of his eye, caught sight of Chinggis Khan, and he bit his lip, and this is supposed to be some sort of signal to him. So then, yeah. Thumbs up, thumbs down. Thumbs up, thumbs down. Do I bite my lip at you, sir? I do, I do. So then it says that
00:24:41
Speaker
Belgutei is sitting on him. He's like kind of almost like riding him like a horse. He crossed the two ends of Buriboko's collar, leaned forwards, and then jerked back with his knee against Buriboko's backbone, and he snapped it. And then Buriboko, his back broken, said, I should not have been beaten by Belgutei. Being afraid of the con, however, I fell deliberately. By wavering, I have lost my life. So saying he died. And then that's very poetic.
00:25:11
Speaker
I feel like most people would be screaming in agony. So that definitely gives us at least, it shows us that it's very clear that in Chinggis Khan's court, in that time, wrestling was clearly very valued. It was really important.
00:25:34
Speaker
Um, and it was not something that they, they took lightly, you know, it was, it was a big deal to them. And it gives us, you know, a little bit in an idea of maybe some of the rule set.
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, we'll we'll get into like what the rules like actually are. And yeah, but you're right. I think a lot of the different folk styles that still exist now really reflect that there is definitely not a very clear, you know, unified version of wrestling of like what wrestling was supposed to be within, you know, these tons of different tribes of people, right, that, you know, are making up this one area.
00:26:11
Speaker
Yeah, so, you know, however like well because part of what we have now With their national tournament than a Dom is it supposed to kind of be the the reclaiming of the original style I guess But we'll get into that. But anyway Yeah, so all the different areas in what we call Mongolia now they had their own like wrestling and the wrestling was you know, generally used and
00:26:38
Speaker
to celebrate to like their people, their culture, right? To do a wrestling tournament, you know, it often happened like in a town square, where everyone could come and watch. And it was about celebrating themselves like as a people, often in like a jingoistic sense, right?
The Nadam Tournament
00:26:57
Speaker
Yeah, to be like, you know, this is our, this is our land, this is our culture. And
00:27:03
Speaker
it was very connected to their shamanistic religion, like a lot of animalism is involved, right? And that's actually a reason why if you watch the even the games today, when they before and after match, there's this kind of dance where they they you'll often see them put their hands out, right? And they'll kind of do like a bird flutter thing with their hands. And they kind of like do this kind of slow motion walk
00:27:29
Speaker
And it's supposed to kind of be like this majesty and elegance of nature and natural animals, right? That, you know, it's kind of like that are objects of worship within the shamanistic religion. Yeah. And that has stuck through. Not just through, you know, not just from, you know, when shamanism was, you know, very strong. But, you know, like the I saw that there was a pretty long set of tournaments that happened for a while called the erga games.
00:28:00
Speaker
And, you know, it was one of those like just local tournaments that would take place in the town square. And that ran from 1778 to 1924. And so up until 1925, the Erger games were kind of like the main, like one where it's like, oh, these were all the best wrestlers were going. But at some point they are, they create what's called the Nadam or like the sport, essentially. And it is the big national tournament.
00:28:30
Speaker
and it's been going on since 1925. And this tournament, it doesn't just feature wrestling, it also features archery and horseback riding, like horsemanship, right? And the thing about those three skills, archery, wrestling, and horseback riding, are kind of like the main three skills. It is the tradition for the men, the males of the
00:28:55
Speaker
of Mongolian culture, like you, those are the things that you master to become a man, right? Yeah. And, you know, everyone hopes like if you have a male child, it's like, oh, we hope they become a wrestler, right? Like that is, that's how much they care about this, right? They have the national term of Nadam. It's supposed to be a symbol for their struggle for independence as a nation and a lot of national pride, right? And then Nadam takes place kind of mid July.
00:29:24
Speaker
There's usually 500 to a thousand competitors. Although apparently in 2011, there was a tournament that had 6,000 competitors. And that's at the Guinness World Records. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. 6,002. Do you know what the second biggest wrestling tournament is? No. It's probably, is it them? It's Fargo. Fargo? Wow.
00:29:49
Speaker
Cause it'll have like five thousand. Yeah. Oh my God. Oh, they, so they had to do this to beat us then. Yeah, good. Well, apparently there was also another huge one in China at one point and they actually were trying to beat that one in China. They did. Um, but yeah, so it's, and it reminded me a little bit at times of the Turkish oil wrestling and that it's, you know, it's a big field, right? Yeah.
Mongolian Wrestling Traditions & Rituals
00:30:15
Speaker
Everyone comes out to the big field. They start wrestling.
00:30:18
Speaker
Um, and you want to describe the rules real quick. Yeah. So the rules are basically super simple. Uh, you cannot touch the ground with anything other than your foot or your hand. Once that's, once that's been done, uh, the match is over. And then, you know, the person who wins, they go do that same dance. Um, and there's a couple other, you know, like traditional things they do, they
00:30:45
Speaker
display to like a certain panel I think right like they do that dance facing them and then um then they get ready for the next match whether that's like that day or the next one because it's it's like a three-day tournament yeah yeah and they'll you know you'll you'll see them out there they're able to grab clothing right and we were talking about some of the techniques we saw it was a lot of knee picks a lot of
00:31:09
Speaker
Um, I didn't see a lot of snap downs, but they do stand up very tall, right? Yeah. It seems like it would be hard to, cause if it's anything but your, uh, you know, anything but your hand, it seems like getting in that low position would be, would be tough. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it is a lot of just leverage going on, leveraging people down, finding knee picks, that kind of stuff.
00:31:35
Speaker
And you'll also see these other guys walking around out there. By the way, this whole event is dripped out like everyone is in like they're very traditional colors and and and and clothing and it's a lot of You know, the spectators are all like really dressed up for the occasion often It's very ceremonial a lot of very ornate clothing that they wear It's it's like it's really hard to describe like Mongolian style
00:32:05
Speaker
is I feel like I see the influence like from China, but also it is very distinct at the same time. Yeah, it is. Yeah, but it is like very flowing, lots of silk, lots of bright colors.
00:32:16
Speaker
Um, and it's, it's really cool. It's really cool to see pointy hats. Um, but you'll see, uh, some people, uh, also walking around the field with wrestlers. Uh, these are called the, uh, Zazul. Um, and they're essentially like, uh, a second, right? They're like a mentor slash guide slash, you know, coach, um, for the wrestler for one of the wrestlers. It doesn't have to be like a real coach. It could just be like.
00:32:44
Speaker
you know, this person we respect from our hometown, you know, they're just more symbolically your friend or like someone you want them in your corner. And they're they're they're allowed if they feel like you're not being aggressive enough, they'll come up and slap you on the ass. Which is really funny because there's little kid versions of this wrestling. And it's it's so funny to watch them wrestle because the shoes are too big for them and they're coming. Yeah. And the little kids are so funny. The kids are crying.
00:33:14
Speaker
It's it's it's you know, it's very funny, but they they start each match they slap both the kids asked so hard to spank them So getting the match like get out there. Yeah, it's just it's intense for the kids But yeah, they could do that if they if it's taking too long the match because the matches are unlimited time But there is an understanding that it should not last very long. I
00:33:38
Speaker
So they, uh, they're, they're allowed to also come in and tell them to get a hold, right? They'll put them in like, and like force them to be like, okay, you have to wrestle now, you know? Um, but it doesn't look like that ever really happens. Like matches don't last very, for being unlimited matches. They do not last long. Like guys get in there, they engage. There's no stalling going on. Like I see someone back up a few steps every once in a while, but it's not a big deal.
00:34:03
Speaker
Um, yeah, it's it's and it's it is brutal like they have really good leverage going on But they're all so big and strong because there's no weight classes, right? Yeah, so all the best guys are huge Oh, yeah, they're enormous They're they're huge dudes Yeah, there's definitely no like uh I mean at least you you you watch like, you know the good ones you see who gets to like the second and like third days
00:34:34
Speaker
There's not a lot of guys who are, you know, small and beating it against the odds. No, the people that under the. Yeah, no, it's it's a big guy sport for sure. And something interesting I saw also is, you know, so after you win, you know, you kind of do that, you know, arms out, like salute to, you know, the nation and the gods. Yeah. Right. And I also noticed that there's a there is a tradition where the loser will actually walk underneath
00:35:03
Speaker
Like when they come together to like, you know, shake hands or give each other hug, the loser will walk underneath the arms of the wind as kind of like a symbolism for like submissiveness. Like you are the winner. I respect that kind of deal, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's, it's, it's so interesting how much, uh, tradition and, and like symbolism is, is, uh, integrated into the sport, like way more so even than I thought, than the Turkish oil wrestling and like,
00:35:29
Speaker
obviously way more so than I'm noticing from like American folk style. Like I feel like American folk style doesn't carry the same sort of like, like there's obviously cultural aspects to it. But yeah, nothing is quite so overt. Like we do tend to treat our sport much more like it's just a sport competition thing, right? There's like national anthems and things like that. But
00:35:54
Speaker
You know, it is we are not nearly as ritualized as some of these older sports. Yeah, I'll say I saw when I was watching this, I was all I could think was like, so does anyone ever like game these rules? Has anyone figured out how to, you know, maybe they get your single leg and your, you know, because like conceivably, if your hands are allowed to touch, you can go quad pod, you know, and see if you could get back up that way. I think it's only one hand that can touch, though, right?
00:36:25
Speaker
OK, that makes sure that makes more sense. Yeah. No, that would make a lot more sense. So but I just found myself thinking of ways to game that that I'm sure are sort of in this culture, you know, like with all of the like trappings of, you know, the significance that it has, I'm sure there's more of a level of like, you don't want to be seen trying to game it out or trying to, you know, when using like
00:36:53
Speaker
you know, the sort of way like we watch like funk wrestlers these days. And you know, yeah, some people hate that. But you and me like we love it. We love to see like, we want to see the boundaries pushed of the rules and see things go forward. Someone's got an interesting little trick that they use. It's like, Oh, that's smart. It's a little trick. I kind of doubt that's the case here. Well, I wonder if when you have these very
00:37:18
Speaker
these rule sets that are very limited because of how easily it is to lose, right? Like there's very little we need to communicate to people for them to understand what's going on when you watch the sport, right? Yeah. That's not the case with American folk style, with our scoring system and time limits and periods and all this stuff, right? When you have something that's designed this way, it's just, it's harder to game the system, I think, right?
00:37:47
Speaker
I think there's just not much else to it. You know, how are you going to game the system? Did anything other than his hand and feet touch? Well, then he lost. That's it, right? You can't game it, right? Yeah, it's hard. I guess the only thing you could see would be, you know, stalling to stalling to like an enormous extent. But I mean, then they'll just clench you up, right? Yeah. But like I said, it doesn't look like it's an issue. They just go at it.
00:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, the the style of like it's beautiful and it's like simplicity. I'm really mad we missed it because I mean, next next next year we are we're hanging out. We're having some we're drinking and we're watching this thing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Now, this it was it was a lot of fun watching this, even like I was saying early before we started recording, just I was watching their opening ceremonies, right?
00:38:43
Speaker
And it was funny to see this, this, uh, you know, you see all these like very, uh, the traditional aspects of it, everyone's in traditional garb and they're doing these like traditional rituals going on and traditional music. Right. And then like I sent you the, the clip that I saw where it's like, and then they bring in, you know, a guy that's doing like rap and now they're kind of merging like the new culture. Right.
00:39:06
Speaker
Yeah, that song that song went pretty hard. We got to see if we did and there was there was a lot of There was a lot There's just a lot of people there a lot of production value just in general like they they put a lot of money into this, right? Oh, yeah, and you can see why it is. It's it's this weird. It's it's like it's like
00:39:27
Speaker
the Fourth of July was imagine if the Fourth of July was also the NCAA championships.
Consistency of Mongolian Wrestling Through Time
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah, they both happened at the same time. And everyone's and everyone in the nation is like, Oh, how do you celebrate the Fourth of July? And everyone's like, we go to the wrestling national championships, obviously. Yeah, like, that's what it is. They're like, that's what we watch, right? It was it's a huge deal. Like, so cool. Yeah, something and what's crazy is like, you
00:39:56
Speaker
There's, you know, other texts from like 1891 that talks about basically the same thing. And it's like, it's, it's the same. So we know at least from, yeah, like 1890, like 1800s on, it's basically been exactly the same because there's, yeah, firsthand account from Axel Heichel, who was like a Finnish, I think, or at least he was on a Finnish expedition.
00:40:25
Speaker
to Mongolia, to Urga. So they had like a 10 day stay in Urga. Um, and this took place in like 1891. And he just talks about they, they were there when they saw like an entire, they saw a week long tournament of, you know, like Mongolian wrestlers. So he talks about, he says the location was an open public scare open public square in front of a temple in the middle of the city. Thousands of spectators had gathered around. They were kept in order by police agents.
00:40:54
Speaker
fairly interesting. Ladies of high rank were jostling their way through the midst of the crowd. And only one side of the square was reserved for the llamas. So this talks about like the Buddhist influence. I mean, we were we're not we could get into there's literally llamas. There's so much problem we could talk about like, just the history of it's a it's a it's crazy. And like how many times it changed hands and the revolution, but
00:41:23
Speaker
that is probably beyond our expertise. Yeah, they're, they're, their history is wild. And for such a part of the world that like can feel very remote, and it's like very low population, right? Yeah. But like so much culture, like just like in such a, a, it's just wild how much culture is there and like how much
00:41:50
Speaker
Uh, like you said, the changing of the guard in terms of like, who was controlling this area and these people, right? Um, yeah, it was, it's, it's very interesting. So at this, yeah, he said there was like, uh, an altar where, uh, with the Geggen, which was to say the God man from, sent from Tibet. And in front of that throne, there were attendants with tiger skins over their shoulders. And then basically it's.
00:42:15
Speaker
he describes the wrestlers coming out, it's basically the same as it is now. The champions advanced two at a time, coming out from opposite sides of the square, accompanied by their seconds, their zoosals, right? They had their chests, legs, and arms exposed in advance doing most comic dances
00:42:35
Speaker
certainly to ensure the elasticity of their muscles during the last minute. So in this text, we can see he mistook, right, the eagle or like the falcon dance that they do, right, where they spread their wings, they turn towards the east, they turn towards the west. And he misunderstood that as like a warmup that they all do or something. I mean, it probably does serve a little bit as a warmup, right? Yeah.
00:43:02
Speaker
Yeah, but that's that's just literally what I watched today. Right. Yeah. Like what he just described is like, yeah, that's what we've been doing. Well, and that reminds me of, you know, you mentioned, you know, at least since, you know, the late 1800s, it's been this
Famous Wrestlers & Their Legacy
00:43:15
Speaker
way. Right. Yeah. And I was kind of looking up like, OK, who are some of like the badasses within Mongolian wrestling? And I found this guy who started competing when he was 18.
00:43:28
Speaker
And at that time, that was 1894. So he was competing at the turn of the century. He didn't stop competing until 1951. So this guy was beating dudes, beating dudes. Well, when he was 70 doing this, right? And I'm going to shatter his name. But it's Jamben Sharavamps.
00:43:52
Speaker
That's what it is. That's his name. And then like more recently, I also looked up like, okay, who's like the best to ever do it, right? Yeah. And it's this guy, bat or Danae, I think it's, I think it's pronounced. And he competed from 1988 to 1999. And in that time, he won 11 tournaments and came in second in another tournament. And so he was a huge badass. I kind of looked him up like, what do you do after that? He actually ran for president there.
00:44:22
Speaker
as like a democratic socialist and lost. He also won a medal in 1989 World Sambo Championships. That's right. Yeah, he was a Sambo guy. That's what makes sense because you're it's pretty similar. Like you have a jacket. Not no pants, but you do have a jacket. Seems like that would be right in his skill set. That makes sense. Like I can see all these guys transition. Speaking of how they transition, though, like
00:44:50
Speaker
Most of the medals that have been won by Mongolia and the Olympics have either been in wrestling or in judo They have 10 in wrestling and 11 in judo and that's why almost all of their medals They have some others in another sport that I've forgotten But yeah, they so that makes perfect sense huge wrestling country, you know, their their output is gonna be wrestling for sure. Yeah, I remember I mean, I think one of the
00:45:17
Speaker
There was a year where they, uh, they scored more points than the US at, uh, at the world championships. I forget when this was, I think it was sometime in, it was sometime in the 2010s, um, kind of before the current era of like, you know, Snyder's and Penn state guys sort of, uh, Raised our love. But there was a time when it was, you know, like during the like Brent Metcalf, uh, type era.
00:45:46
Speaker
There was a year we did really bad. Where our only medalist was Jordan Burroughs kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they were definitely a powerhouse. Yeah. I mean, they're always tough, right? When I watch international freestyle and I see a Mongolian wrestler, I would never brush them off, right? And it could make sense also, if you come from a country with
00:46:14
Speaker
this, you know, background as like the wrestler is that's the thing to be. And you're, say, not a 100 kilogram sized guy. You know, your other option is you have to go to freestyle. Yeah, true. Well, I was just thinking what something I didn't mention was the way they have rankings and they give wrestlers titles based on their success, right?
00:46:42
Speaker
Um,
Politics in Mongolian Wrestling
00:46:43
Speaker
so the, and it kind of ties in with the shamanistic, uh, animalism. Uh, depending on how you, uh, finish at the Nadam or at some of the smaller kind of like, uh, sub tournaments, um, you can be awarded a, a, uh, uh, title of an animal. Um, so if you're a semi-finalist in the Sum Nadam Wrestling Tournament, you're a Falcon of Sum. Uh, if you win that tournament, you're an Elephant of Sum.
00:47:11
Speaker
And then the same thing for the Amag tournament. You could be a falcon or an elephant if you're a semi-finalist or if you're the runner-up. But if you're the winner of the Amag wrestling tournament, you're the lion of the Amag. But then when you get to the actual national Nadam tournament, if you make it to the round of 16, you're a national falcon. Make it to the quarters, you're a national hawk.
00:47:41
Speaker
You make it to the semi-finals, you're a national elephant. If you are the runner up at the Nadam, you are the national Garuda. And then if you win it, you're the national lion. If you win the Nadam twice, you're a national champion. If you win it four times, you're a national wide champion. And if you win it five times or more, you're a national grand champion.
00:48:05
Speaker
They lots of titles flying around and you can see where the it's it's it's roots in military training come in. Yeah. Where you're kind of giving these these titles based on your performance rather than just like you got knocked out. You went one and two. Yeah. As far as I can tell, there's not a whole lot of like financial incentive other than, you know, you might be a famous guy and like, you know,
00:48:34
Speaker
Yeah, you know sponsor you or something like that But I didn't see a ton of like well, there's you know this much you can win this much money It does seem to be very pride driven I did run across this actual actually an article I think I I think I'll have put it in the description Where they were saying like what does it take to be a wrestler?
00:49:01
Speaker
in Mongolia like a successful one and they specifically made a point of saying like it's not just the um being a good wrestler like you need to have a uh uh it's like political too because apparently yeah
00:49:16
Speaker
Uh, you know, just like at the national tournament, like depending on who you wrestle, it's all draw. They just draw the brackets. Oh yeah. Yeah. At the local tournaments, it's just whoever's in charge of the tournaments decides they just get to choose. So like the article is saying like, you need to like know that guy and like be cool with that guy, uh, to be successful sometimes. Right.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yeah. It's, it's, it's, uh, every coach is like worst seating meeting nightmare. You know, like you just go in there like, yeah, no, you got to deal with like there it's, you don't get to
Conclusion & Personal Reflections
00:49:54
Speaker
argue. That's a, that's how it is. But it also seems like, uh, it can really depend because sometimes that'll be the way, but sometimes, uh, it'll be the case that, you know, they're the people that will have enough clout to push back on it.
00:50:10
Speaker
So yeah, it seems like a sort of like a push and pull trying to get your favorite wrestlers the best seating. I gotta say, I don't have much more to say about Mongolian wrestling other than it's really cool. It's another style where it's like the first time you see it, you're like, what are they wearing? And you get all reactionary about it. But it's a really cool sport. I thought it was really cool. I definitely recommend people checking it out, especially if you're into just wrestling in general.
00:50:40
Speaker
American folk style, you'll like what you're seeing. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. We definitely will. We got to make sure that we see we watch it next year. It's I mean, it seems like a fun it's a kind of a great format, too, because it's all these guys on a football field. You watch it, they, you know, they zoom in on certain matches that are, you know, with like, yeah, you know, high level wrestlers, they'll watch them.
00:51:07
Speaker
They'll go over to other clips. You know, it's kind of like, I mean, you think, you know, we watched NCA tournament, right? You get the quad screen going on. Right. Um, we're talking like, you know, the first round is going to be 1024 wrestlers. Right. So that's going to be 512 matches. Probably not all going on at once, but you know, maybe. So there's a lot 20 seconds. Yeah. So it's kind of like, uh, it's.
00:51:36
Speaker
It's pretty fun because it stays relevant the whole time. You know, there's always action happening. Yeah, it's cool. But hey, you mentioned seating meetings, right? I got to ask you, have you been in many seating meetings? No, no, I've never had to deal with it. Oh, man. Bro, I forget. Like when you were saying like, oh, it's like, you know, everyone arguing the seating meeting and I like to think in my head was just like, man,
00:52:01
Speaker
Sometimes I wish there was just a guy that just said, you know, or I'll just argue I hated seating meetings. I think they make sense when you're going into like the bigger tournaments and stuff. Yeah. But like doing the seating meetings at little local tournaments and you got one coach who's just way.
00:52:18
Speaker
way too into it. Yeah, and draw my kid in wherever I don't care. Yeah, I hated seeding meetings, it should always be off of an algorithm. Yeah. If you're if you if your kid isn't where you think then too bad. And then you'd have you'd have like a good school that like wouldn't turn in their their wrestlers information ahead of time. So that people wouldn't know like where to seed them. And you knew you knew that their guys were really good though.
00:52:48
Speaker
Right. And so at the seeding meeting, you would be like, well, if you didn't send in your, your people, then we're not going to seed you, you know, you're going to have to be drawn in. Right. Um, and the good schools would be like, yeah, that's fine. I'll, if you were, if you won't like take the time to, uh, uh, seed my guys where they belong, even though we didn't turn in our, our, uh, wrestler information ahead of time.
00:53:14
Speaker
if you guys don't go out of your way to do that for me, we're just gonna wreck your bracket. And it's like, yeah, seating meetings are awful. I hate that. It's the worst. Yeah, it's it's no better in a it's not. It's no better at the like D one level either. I mean, it's like
00:53:33
Speaker
It's so horrible. Everything we see all the time with seeding the way it goes on. It's the fucking worst. Like you look at the way like a brand's brother acts on the mat, like on national television. And then you wonder, okay, if that's how he acts there, imagine how aggressive he is in seeding meeting. Yeah. Okay. I think, uh, I think we've covered it for this week. Um, and I got some ideas, talk with you about, uh, next time. Um, but until then, I think, uh, we can say goodbye.
00:54:05
Speaker
See everybody go watching the Dom