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Turkish Oil Wrestling - Ep3 - Archaic Wrestling
78 Plays1 year ago
Evan and Sasha share some hot takes in this one while discussing the slippery nature of Turkish oil wrestling.
Music by Josh Kasen
Twitter @ArchaicWrestle
archaicwrestling@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Wrestling Updates
00:00:18
Speaker
What's up, folks? This is Archaic Wrestling, a wrestling history podcast. My name is Evan, and I'm joined, as always, with Sasha. Hello, everybody.
00:00:30
Speaker
Sasha, it's good to see you. There's been a little bit of stuff happening in the wrestling world since we last spoke. Well, since we last did a podcast, at least, we talk a little bit more often than that. But biggest things are the results of Final X and maybe even more to say about the other topic, which is just the brand new rules.
00:00:55
Speaker
For
Final X Reactions and Highlights
00:00:56
Speaker
college wrestling and I'm excited about both of these things But first wanted to give you space if you want to say anything about final x your reactions to it your takeaways Vito looked incredible That was really interesting it was really interesting seeing David Taylor and Brooks that was a match anytime you have You know to Penn Staters going at it
00:01:24
Speaker
it's interesting there's there's a level of like you wouldn't you wouldn't think anyone else could be Taylor or that it would even be close so it was interesting to see I didn't think Brooks would beat him but it was definitely a match I was like keyed into yeah I
00:01:41
Speaker
I didn't think Brooks was going to be able to last with him. He wouldn't be able to keep up with him down the line. That was kind of how I felt about it. And Vito, the most exciting wrestler for me to watch right now. Like, I want to watch every Vito match because he is just so on point. He's electric to see right now. He's scoring points from everywhere. He feels like he's
00:02:05
Speaker
really begun to understand how he can use his body and his style. He just seems at the top of his game right now. And just the speed, his speed and his efficiency at getting to positions is just amazing to watch at the moment. Yeah, he's someone that looks like he is perfectly keyed into everything that's in his tool bag, his exact reach, his exact body type,
00:02:35
Speaker
He just feels like everything he's doing is exactly where it needs to be. I mean, by contrast, I think there are some, there are some wrestlers who have a tendency to this more, you know, this is personal soapbox, but you don't want to do things that are maybe not perfect for their body type or, you know, try to try to scramble when they're a shorter stockier person or, you know, try to
00:02:59
Speaker
Muscle things when they're they're a lankier it feels like he's perfectly keyed into like his exact combo of like strength and lankiness Everything that he's going for he reaches it
00:03:10
Speaker
But he just has incredible athleticism and just speed. It's insane. Yeah, I'm really excited to watch him at Worlds.
Jordan Burroughs' Future
00:03:18
Speaker
It's going to be cool. I mean, I feel like every single match was a story, right? Like, I don't want to spend too much time on Final X stuff because that's not what our podcast is totally about. But I mean,
00:03:31
Speaker
Adeline Gray's story, interesting to see. Like literally every single match I got stuff I'm thinking about. I mean Burroughs not making the team again. And Marstell are looking even better since the last time he wrestled him. Scoring on him with more ease as well. I feel like there was
00:03:51
Speaker
it was last time they last final x it was a lot more about oh chance's strategy against burrows and that was there this time but also chance just looked like he was a better wrestler like throughout all three matches um and that's like that's a second weight class now that burrows is is starting to get pushed out of yeah we'll see uh
00:04:16
Speaker
You know, it could probably, it's probably the end of an era. I mean, it's tough to, it's tough to stomach, right?
Chance Marsteller's Comeback Story
00:04:24
Speaker
Everything you get, you'd like to see him go out. Olympics done. Oh my God. You know, amazing. But it's looks pretty likely that it's, this was the last one that he had in him and he didn't make it. And next year it's going to be either 74 with dake.
00:04:43
Speaker
or if he wants to try it, 86 with Taylor. I don't see him winning either of those matches. So definitely incredible. I wouldn't be surprised if he says, hey, you know what? I'm done done, right? I have a feeling that he'll still try to compete through the Olympics and just kind of finish that out. And if he can't beat Dake, then that might be it for him.
00:05:10
Speaker
Um, I mean, he has the ability to be a world team member for several more years. He is that good, right? Like if date got hurt, you know, and he's the alternate, he steps in like he, he still has a chance to metal, right? He is still that good. It's just, you know, he, I do think he's lost a little bit of a step.
00:05:29
Speaker
And that's not you know that that's like, you know going from greatest of all time to One step slower than the greatest of all time of yourself, right? It's it's it's the tiniest bit but it just really speaks to how good dake has become with and having the youth factor And and Marsteller just really putting things together. Everyone
Critique of FloWrestling Coverage
00:05:54
Speaker
knows about his story by now and
00:05:57
Speaker
And it's a it's a good story. It's nice to see that. Like we don't get a lot of I mean, I don't mean just in wrestling, but, you know, people that have fentanyl addiction don't get very many amazing comeback stories, right? No, they don't. Yeah, that's that's it's really good to see. It looks like he's taken he took himself from a really bad place to, you know, to being on top of the world in a sense. Right. And yeah, I mean, there was always
00:06:27
Speaker
an enormous amount of pressure there. There was always going to be sky high expectations. It was always, I was at a Penn State camp when he was maybe a senior in high school and whoever was teaching the camp that day was talking about, it's like, everyone know Chance Marschiller is? He's a high schooler who could probably win an NCAA title right now.
00:06:50
Speaker
And it's just the things that people said about him and what they built him up to be, you know, it's without a fentanyl addiction, without, you know, abuse and like everything he's been through that would also break most people. Just the expectations alone. Yeah. Yeah. So.
00:07:08
Speaker
You know what? I'm glad he's where he's at, regardless of what his wrestling results are. I think it's cool. I think it's cool that he's made it this far. But not to dwell too much on Final X. We have our world teams. I'm excited to see it. Flo really shit the bed. We don't need to talk too much about that because it's all been said and things. Well, the great thing about Flo is you might not be able to watch it during the event.
00:07:38
Speaker
But you also can't watch it after the event either. Yes, correct.
New College Wrestling Rules Discussion
00:07:44
Speaker
The website never works. You can't full screen half the time. It just stops buffering. You can't find the matches. The fact that I can't just type in a wrestler's name and it's like, here's their matches.
00:07:59
Speaker
That's very silly. You type in a wrestler's name and you get an interview of them from when they were 14 years old at Beast of the East. Yes, I'm so glad that we paid money to fly people across the country so we can watch these 12-year-olds wrestle. That's definitely what I'm glad the subscriber money is going towards.
00:08:24
Speaker
as opposed to maybe a little bit more consistency with streaming. I don't know. I don't know. That would just be fine and dandy. But anyway, the new rules came out for college wrestling and the biggest controversial rule I think is probably the three-point takedown. You and I are both pretty much in pro three-point takedown camp.
00:08:53
Speaker
But I feel like there's a lot of fairly reasonable arguments that people are making against it. I don't agree with them. But I think the main one that I see a lot is, well, now you can do a seven-point move. If you get two seven-point moves, that's only one move away from a tech. I'm sitting here thinking,
00:09:16
Speaker
Hell yeah. What's wrong with that? Hell yeah, exactly. Let's end this dang match. This guy's obviously destroying this guy. Let's not waste our time. I have been beating this drum for years that the tech fall is unreasonably high in folk style. Yeah. And unreasonably low in freestyle. Yeah, it really should be like 13 or something.
00:09:41
Speaker
Yeah, 12 or 13. And freestyle should just be 15. I mean, if we're okay with the tech being 15 in folk, there's no reason it shouldn't be high. It should be extremely rare in any case that someone comes back from being one point away from being teched. And it never ever happens
00:10:04
Speaker
in folk style and it happens basically on a routine basis and free. Well, and someone was saying, uh, I was reading on Twitter, a guy was saying, uh, well now with these matches, you know, the, the really good wrestlers who get all those takedowns, uh, like initially
00:10:22
Speaker
they have more of a cushion. If a guy that's really scrappy wants to climb back, he has to take up more ground now. The guy that might not be as good of a wrestler, it's harder for him to come back. I'm like, good. The sport should be designed for the good wrestler to win.
00:10:43
Speaker
And also if a guy is scrapping back because those are great matches Now he has three points per takedown to do it with it's easier to catch up to And I feel I mean there are a couple problems that I feel like we've seen with With folk style and You know with basically having a one-point takedown differential in the vast majority of takedowns not in close matches one of the big problems was
00:11:13
Speaker
Like, a lot of times, you know, guys are in matches late because somebody might get two takedowns, whatever it is, it's like four to two, five to three or something. And, you know, one takedown, they get a takedown, you know, they can tie it up. They're in the match. So there's a level of excitement that we might lose that is just from the possibility of that happening.
00:11:41
Speaker
But at the end of the day, it wasn't really happening. Most of the time, if someone was having that much more success on their feet, there was a possibility that they might come back. It was kind of interesting. But it usually never really happened. People stalled things out. I just don't see the point in, I mean, a takedown is it's not one point.
00:12:06
Speaker
A takedown is not one point better than an escape. It's not one point as impressive as an escape. It's much more impressive. It's three times as impressive. Yeah. I think people like to make the argument that bottom is very difficult, especially at the college level. It is not automatic that you're going to get an escape. You have to work hard for it. I would say that might be true in a sense. I do still think that
00:12:34
Speaker
of all the ways in which you can score points, the escape is the easiest point to score. It doesn't mean that it's easy, like we understand that, but it is the easiest point to score.
00:12:46
Speaker
I mean, the guys that can't get off bottom are usually also guys that can't get takedowns or can't turn. Right. I mean, usually if someone is having an enormous struggle on bottom, they're probably not getting a lot of takedowns. They're probably getting dominated in some sense. So in terms of like the fairness or whatever, I think it's better. But I guess the biggest thing here is just like, does it create a better product?
00:13:12
Speaker
We just have all these prognostications from everyone on Twitter. They go like, wow, you know, this is terrible. Now that the takedown is three points, guys are going to be it's like worse if you get taken down. If you shoot and you get taken down, that's like so much worse now because now it's a two point differential. So obviously people are going to be people are going to be more defensive.
00:13:37
Speaker
Which, is it, I don't know, it's an insane argument when you could also say they're gonna, it's also worth more. There's more of an incentive to get one. It's one of these things where it's just all flying around. Everyone says, oh, this is what's gonna happen. Nobody knows anything. We haven't seen it. It doesn't even change the scenario though either, right? Like if you have a two point takedown and escape and you're up by one,
00:14:04
Speaker
you can't stall because if the other person gets a takedown, then they'll be winning, right? How does that change when it's a three-point takedown? Three-point takedown, you get a takedown, they get an escape, now you're up by two. It doesn't change the fact that if they score a point, they're going to tie you up again, right? It's not as much of an issue as people think it's going to be. If I get two takedowns on someone in a match,
00:14:32
Speaker
And it puts me up by four points. Why would I stop doing that? Like, I understand the worry like, well, that's a lot of points just to be able to stall out. But that's not a great way to, you know, that's not a great way to win a match. Right. I mean, if this was true, no one would ever get teched. No one would ever get majored. Yeah. Why would we even have those? If any time someone was up on, you know, a lead that they thought was insurmountable if they stalled.
00:15:02
Speaker
We would never have any majors, we'd never have any techs. People get majors in techs. Wrestlers do. Wrestlers wrestle. That's what they do. They're going to go out. With the new three point rules, honestly, we're probably going to just see a lot more techs, probably going to make duels in some ways more exciting because
00:15:21
Speaker
you know, the differentials are going to matter a little bit more. Yeah, they used to. I mean, there's so many situations where we have a guy who maybe is like top five in the country against someone who's outside of the top 20. And just if it's depending on the style matchup, you know, you can just put it in the bank that like, you know, yeah, maybe we might end up with a six or seven point differential, very unlikely we get the major.
00:15:46
Speaker
And I just think those duels might be a little bit more exciting now. Majors are easier to get, like that stuff actually is going to start mattering more. And it's easier to save points too, right? Now if you're a guy who's losing by too much, right?
00:16:04
Speaker
If you can get that one last three-point takedown by dealing a match and save it from being a major, you can now do that. You're right. It does make it a little bit more competitive, I think it does. But you're also right in that we just got to see it. We really got to see it because I feel like anytime we make major changes to rules, there's always something that pops up. It's like, I did not expect that strategy or that loophole or whatever. So I'm also just interested to see what those things will be.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think my favorite part of new rules is, you know, and people have been talking about this enough, but they changed the criteria on top for stalling to include anyone that is not working on top for, you know, a pinning combination.
00:16:51
Speaker
And I think that might have more, if it's reft correctly, this might give the refs more cover to actually call stalling on top when it is there. Because it is by the letter of the law. Yeah, I think that's the hope.
00:17:05
Speaker
And I think I'm glad that they're doing a change like this where it is still allowing for the subjectivity of the call to be pretty present Because I do want the referees to be able to make that subjective call of someone stalling, right? Yeah But
Clarification on Olympic Truce
00:17:22
Speaker
you're right. It's gonna be like are they gonna execute on this? Are they gonna call it? Are they gonna call it? Well, I
00:17:27
Speaker
Or is it gonna just be like well now it's now it's creating some other problem, right? So I do hope that that it's going to just open up a little bit more aggression in terms of calling stalling on top because it is sorely needed Especially if you're not gonna get rid of writing time
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah, the hope really is there that, you know, refs are clearly scared to call stalling. They, in their mind, it clearly is, you know, too subjective at this point or too easy to argue that isn't stalling. Hopefully, this will make it a lot easier. Yeah. Hopefully, they'll be able to point to it and say, look, this is an obvious stall, obviously not working for a pin here.
00:18:09
Speaker
Hopefully this actually changes things. But I mean, that was, you know, three point takedown, two point takedown. Doesn't really matter to me, but I cannot watch Penn State's seven ankle anymore. Oh, God. It was getting very tiring. Yeah. Oh, that ankle ride reminded me of something that I saw while watching some of the Turkish oil wrestling that we'll be talking about. Oh, nice.
Introduction to Turkish Oil Wrestling
00:18:31
Speaker
But right before we get into that.
00:18:33
Speaker
last episode we were talking about the the Olympic truce where people aren't supposed to be at war during the Olympics and I mentioned that it came back in like 94 92 or whatever it was we brought it back into the modern Olympics and we were saying like oh how could it be that only Russia had been Had been in violation of that when we know the US had been in all these other wars and other countries had been in wars, right?
00:19:00
Speaker
And I think I mentioned an example of Vietnam, which made no sense because Vietnam was over long before they reinstituted the troops. And it was bothering me when I re-heard that, how silly that sounded. So I wanted to correct that really quickly. But that was all for our corrections and omissions for now. That was another one for me. I said 100 yards when I meant 100 Greek feet. So the square that the Greeks wrestled in,
00:19:27
Speaker
It was not a hundred yards long. It was 100 Greek feet long, which is pretty much analogous to our current feet. So. Got it. Got it. Everyone at home right now is going, oh, God, that was bothering me so much. Yes.
00:19:45
Speaker
I'm sure. I can't believe it. But last week or excuse me, last episode, you brought up the idea of us covering Turkish oil wrestling in this episode. And I'm glad you did. I had a lot of fun checking out and learning a little bit more about it. It's one of those things that, you know, I'd seen like videos here or there of it and kind of like, oh, that's interesting. Right. But never really like dove into it very much.
00:20:12
Speaker
And so this is gonna be our first time covering a folk style And I thought to get started. Maybe we should talk about like what do we mean by folk style? How would you define a folk style? Basically, you know like a vernacular style of wrestling that's local to one country
00:20:37
Speaker
It can be more, but it's usually local to a certain place with certain customs, and it's got its own rule set. It usually has its own style of attire, own rule set that's either very different from other styles or slightly different. But it does seem, especially with the Greek and Turkish, one thing we learned is that they were
00:21:07
Speaker
something process that David Graber and the other David who wrote that book. I don't want to leave him out of there. The term they coined in the book Dawn of Everything, Schismogenesis, where they were
00:21:24
Speaker
basically talking about how cultures that are near each other develop along different lines because they are trying to be different. They're trying to be different than each other. They're trying to say, this is our style. We're different than you. You guys suck. And it seems like the Turkish attire, the pants evolved from them wanting to wrestle like the Greeks, wanting to be naked.
00:21:51
Speaker
So yeah, and you brought that up in the previous episode, which kind of got us onto this, right? But yeah, so I kind of view folk styles as it is a style that has culture embedded with it, right? And I do think that this style of Turkish oil wrestling is a good example of that. And this is called, the actual style is called Yaliguresh, is how it's called, Yaliguresh.
00:22:19
Speaker
And there's a lot of interesting things about this style. And I do want to make sure that as we, you know, go through these styles, we want to make sure we're having some cultural sensitivity about us. I think that's responsible. And as I was doing some research on this, I found a journal.
00:22:41
Speaker
Or see me was a handbook and it's called the handbook of masculinity in sports So as we Turkish oil wrestling as you can imagine there's a lot of oil involved on two men and their bodies, right? And you know, I think wrestlers in the United States are no
00:23:03
Speaker
there are no strangers to be hearing things like, oh, wrestling is gay, right? And having this almost like homophobic kind of attitude projected towards you, right? Yes, absolutely. We're all very familiar with this. And so I found this journal that I thought was very interesting. And there was a chapter in it that says that was called Turkish Oil Wrestling and the Western Gays.
00:23:27
Speaker
hegemonic, heteronormative, Islamic body culture, and folk wrestling masculinities. And I thought this was really interesting, so I will link this in the description, but I'm just gonna read the abstract really quickly.
00:23:40
Speaker
As evidenced through its simultaneous development in disconnected societies, wrestling is the oldest and most basic form of human physical culture. Fostering the primal desire for control, the discourse surrounding the sport of wrestling often draws on the symbolism of masculinity, struggle, strength, determination, courage, et cetera. The effects of time and distance led to the evolution of the regional variations witnessed today.
00:24:09
Speaker
One such variation in folk wrestling is Yagi Grez, oil wrestling, the national sport of Turkey. Through a western heteronormative lens, the sport of oil wrestling with its glistening and writhing bodies does not perceptually coincide with the notion of, quote, compulsory heterosexuality.
00:24:31
Speaker
However, along with normalized platonic displays of same-sex affection like hand-holding that we see in Islamic cultures, oil wrestling epitomizes masculinity in Turkish culture, which is misunderstood by and at odds with traditional Western conceptions of masculinity. The aim of this sociocultural study is to bridge the gap in Western understanding of Turkish oil wrestling.
00:24:57
Speaker
through the examination of Islamic body culture, masculine symbolism, in folk wrestling, and Turkish gender dynamics. So, big mouthful. But the big thing to take away from it, right, is we have certain kind of ideas of our gender roles here in the United States, right? And so when we see stuff in
00:25:19
Speaker
Wrestling, well, let me put it this way. I was watching some footage and I was watching with my wife, and I didn't tell her anything about Turkish World Wrestling before we started watching it, right? And she started seeing some images, and her response was, wow, that's gay. And she said, in a positive way. She's like, I actually like when sports are very gay, so that makes sense, right?
00:25:43
Speaker
But that's because her perception is very much about like what is gay what is heterosexual right is very much influenced by her upbringing her nationality.
00:25:57
Speaker
Whereas in Turkey, the idea of men holding hands with each other, men rubbing each other down with oil, all kinds of this very physical intimacy that is a little bit more acceptable and not seen in a manner that it's signaling homosexuality.
Kirkpinar Tournament Overview
00:26:18
Speaker
Sorry, I just said a whole lot. Yeah, it's definitely something that
00:26:27
Speaker
When you watch it, you're gonna, it's gonna look different. It's, I don't know, I mean, it sort of calls into question the fact that, you know, really all of these, look, we're the Woke Wrestling Podcast, I'm gonna say it, gender is fake. It's ridiculous. Yeah, so.
00:26:50
Speaker
So I feel like a lot of people might be listening and just saying, okay, but what actually are you guys talking about? We're kind of alluding to things, right? So what does Yali Guresh look like?
00:27:04
Speaker
It takes place. It just looks like wrestling, honestly. It takes place on a big grass field. All the competitors come in. There's no weight classes. In fact, they like to say that one of the reasons for the oil is to make it so weight and strength advantages are less because it's harder to get a hold of people, harder to utilize your strength, right? Yeah. However, I have to say the people that tend to kick butt at these tournaments are big, strong dudes.
00:27:32
Speaker
You know, you're not going to be surprised by who wins this stuff generally. And all the wrestlers, they all pair up and they go at it with each other at the same time.
00:27:44
Speaker
And this has a extremely old tradition. This was said to have started, it has its roots in ancient Sumer and Babylon, so going way back to, you know, what some would call cradle of civilization times, right? And they've been wrestling this style for a long, long time, all through the Ottoman Empire, where it really gained a lot of
00:28:11
Speaker
a lot of popularity. Right to today, it is a living sport. People are doing this and they are doing it in a big way. Like we said, it is Turkey's national sport of wrestling.
00:28:23
Speaker
And but a really good way to kind of explore this sport is to concentrate on their one big event and that's called the Kirk Pinar and it's held once a year in June and Every year there's about a thousand competitors that come and they compete over three days And this has been going on since around 1362
00:28:47
Speaker
So that's 670 years of history. There have been times where they've skipped a year here and there, for whatever reason. But it's been going on for a long time. It is the oldest living sporting competition. And that's incredible. When I heard that, I immediately texted Sasha. I was like, this is so cool. I didn't even know this.
00:29:12
Speaker
I don't know, did you even know about that beforehand? No, I mean, the other funny thing, you know, about like, this is very American thing, but like, our oldest traditions are, you know, maybe things we got from Europe or whatever, so they can kind of count as old, but America is just a young country, culture is so young, I mean, something going on for that long, like,
00:29:35
Speaker
an unbroken line of competitors that there's, you know, maybe we'll see you later. Decent amount of historical record on, um, is kind of crazy. You know, our oldest, our oldest buildings are not very old. Yeah. Yeah. And they've been doing this long. They've been longer than, you know, our country has existed. So it's, it's, it's kind of awesome. Yeah. I really feel that especially like living on the West coast, right? Um, there's a lot of,
00:30:06
Speaker
like everything's new, right? Like the oldest stuff is like the missions and maybe some cave dwelling areas, right? And none of it feels like, it always feels like we have so much less history, which is a bad thing to think because of how rich indigenous culture was here. But we have a lot less, we know a lot less about that, right? So it's quite fascinating to see the recorded history in Europe quite a bit.
00:30:37
Speaker
Um, but moving, so to continue the explanation. So, uh, the Kirkpreneur, the wrestlers will come. It's, it's, it's a single elimination. Just turn it bracketed style and you keep going until there's a final winner.
00:30:51
Speaker
And the winner will receive a gold belt. And he gets to have that belt for a year. He brings it back the next year. And whoever wins the next year gets the belt. If you win three years in a row, then you get to keep your golden belt. And you're known as one of the coolest dudes, right? Everyone loves you. You walk through the streets. They follow you with drums and chanting. And everyone wants a picture with you. There's a dude that will help you wash off all your olive oil off of you.
00:31:19
Speaker
But the way the olive oil gets on the wrestlers to begin with is there is a pre-match ritual where the wrestlers will, you know, and people will help the wrestlers. They'll pour the olive oil all over their bodies. They will help each other. They'll rub each other down, help each other out.
00:31:39
Speaker
Um, and they, you know, literally all over their bodies, they get it all over their bodies. They are wearing leather pants as they are, uh, during oil wrestling. Um, and they have to get the oil down all over the pants, inside the pants everywhere. Um, and these pants are called, uh, the kiss bet and the kiss bet, um, originally.
00:32:00
Speaker
was made out of heavy water buffalo leather that could weigh up to 13 kilograms. Just the pants. And the art of making them is starting to get lost, actually. But more modern ones are made of calfskin and they're much, much lighter. But this is the traditional kind of wear of the wrestler.
00:32:26
Speaker
or the Pelvan, as they're called. They're called the Pelfan. And so they're all wrestling at the same time. You lose. And how do you lose, Sasha? Did you get a chance to look at the rules of how people lose in this?
Techniques and Strategies in Turkish Oil Wrestling
00:32:41
Speaker
No, but I'm going to guess. I'm going to guess what happens is, from my knowledge of other folk styles, I'm going to go out on a crazy limb here and say, probably it is when one person hits the ground with anything other than their feet.
00:32:58
Speaker
You're very close. Very close. In fact, as I was watching this sport, I watched quite a few videos of it. It is incredible how much it looks like American folk style at times. So everyone is barefoot. You know, you're not allowed to kick people or hit people, eye pokes, biting. It's all the same rules that you would think of, right? For the most part, you know,
00:33:22
Speaker
And the way the match begins is they do this ceremony called the Peshrav, and it's kind of like they pace away from each other, they pace towards each other, they go to a knee, they say a prayer, they touch their face and lips.
00:33:39
Speaker
It is kinda like the prayer and I guess some historians think that this ritual actually, although there's a lot of Islamic aspects to the ritual, some believe that the actual ritual started before the Islamification of the area like many, many, like a long time ago, right?
00:33:58
Speaker
but so that's hard hard to really say but these competitors that's how they begin the match and they go at it you know you it just looks like folk style wrestling for the most part really really big difference though is the way you win right any turn
00:34:16
Speaker
Of the back to a past 90 you win any turn one turn Just has to face a little bit like freestyle in that way. So yeah. Well, yeah, but it's it's not scoring. It's you win the match period Yeah, yeah, if you pick someone up and walk a few steps with them you win the match Someone like that's injury and defaults you win right things like that
00:34:40
Speaker
And if you take someone from their feet and land them on their butt, essentially, even if they don't expose their back, if they land on their hip or their butt, then you can win that way as well. And the idea being you are not supposed to allow your belly to show to the stars, to the sky. It shows you're in a submissive position.
00:35:02
Speaker
And so the matches can be very quick because it's just exposure, right? That's really all it is, just exposure. Or just picking a dude up, right? So all that becomes a lot harder when everyone has a bunch of oil on them, right? And prior to 1975, matches had no time limit. So matches could go on for days.
00:35:27
Speaker
And that made it really hard to commercialize things, right? Like schedule things, right? So after 1975, it sure took several hundred years to get here, but they made it. They minimize the matches to 30 or 40 minutes, kind of depending on where, like what term of their competing app.
00:35:47
Speaker
And usually someone wins within those 30 to 40 minutes. And then some tournaments, they do an overtime where they do have scores, or they might do an overtime where you're trying to rip a band off of someone's ankle. But in general, the basic rules of lift someone, turn someone, throw somebody,
00:36:08
Speaker
Those are all the main ways people win. And the big thing, like I said, when you watch it, it just looks a lot like folk style wrestling, but there's no styling. They're putting a lot of pressure on the head. It looks like they're really trying to tire people out. They're using the length of the match to their advantage if they can.
00:36:29
Speaker
But guys are really protective of their back. You see guys really turtle up and then the other guy just kind of is on top of them trying to, you know, a lot of times they take that chance to like rest on top and bottom, right?
00:36:41
Speaker
But the big difference that you're going to see that does not look like folk style wrestling is the wrestlers are allowed to take their hands and insert them into those leather pants, like all the way down to the elbow if they want. And they use this as a hold to create leverage.
00:37:01
Speaker
in a way that can negate some of the slippery oilness. I think I finally got to that aspect of it that people don't think about. You're not allowed to grab genitals. You're not allowed to insert anything anywhere.
00:37:14
Speaker
But, yeah, you watch this and it'll look just like wrestling. It'll be hard to do ankle rides, Penn State ankle rides on people because they just slip their ankles right out of stuff because they're not wearing shoes. Yeah, there's like things where it's just like, well, that technique will not work anymore. And you'll see people with arms all the way down their pants trying to lift them up that way. Yeah. And so are they working with
00:37:39
Speaker
These pants, do they have any grips on the outside or on the inside, or are they just leather pants? There's no grips, but they are baggy, so you can kind of get a handful, right? I would think of it more as like grabbing a gi, you know, rather than grabbing something with a handle. That kind of what it reminds me of a little bit.
00:38:00
Speaker
But yeah, it is. There's not a ton to grab onto, but that's why they do it. You know, you get your arm all the way through a pant leg. Now all of a sudden you can kind of flex it, make a fist, right? And like use that to leverage people up in the air. Because otherwise, it's just hard to hold on to anybody. Yeah, it's it's tough. It's like, you know, you're sweaty at the end of practice. You can't grab nothing. It's probably that times 100. Yeah, one thing I'm seeing a lot of
00:38:31
Speaker
you know, as far as techniques go, it does look a lot like it looks a little bit like, you know, folk style, right? There's just like a lot of top bottom, same kind of, you know, referees position on bottom. But something interesting is sort of like wrestling, crotch lift sort of exposure that they're going for. Yeah. But with, you know, sticking their hands all the way through the pants.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of because of all the oil, it makes sense. Like when I'm watching them on their feet, I'm thinking, okay, what would I do here? Because like, everything just slips out of any grip, right? Yeah. So it's hard to control an ankle, it's hard to control a knee. If I'm trying to get in, maybe I'm thinking standing single, bring the lock right into the crotch and do like more of a lift, right?
00:39:21
Speaker
Try to score where you're you know, you're lifting and walking for a few steps. I could get the win that way but like You can't elbow pass you, you know, you can kind of collar tie a little bit But you know, especially on you know, you're inside ties or your elbow ties. It's all that stuff is just it disappears With how much oil is involved? Yeah, like you know how it's how you know
00:39:48
Speaker
kind of the difference between when you're on an ankle in wrestling and you kind of lock it in because he's wearing a shoe, right? And then you try to do that in BJJ. And it's like, oh, not quite as easy, right? It slips out a lot easier. Now imagining he's covered in oil, right? And I think a lot of bread and butter style single leg attacks kind of go away in this, right? But I do see double legs. I understand that. I do see just kind of like knee pick style stuff maybe.
00:40:18
Speaker
But you've you've got to like really control a joint if you're gonna control a joint like how are you like, you know Maybe some duck under stuff I could see maybe that But anything where you're trying to like kind of suck something in just it's that's gonna be tough Yeah, it's it definitely looks like a lot of the Yeah, what are you watching this are we seeing more?
00:40:43
Speaker
takedowns from standing or are we seeing more of, are people getting, it seems to me like the goal here would be try to get on top and then work some sort of crotch lift or something like that for the exposure. It seems like getting takedown straight to that back is going to be really hard.
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah, and a lot of the top work that you would normally have in folk style, it's not going to be there. You can't run a wing. People just slip right out. You can't run a half. They're going to crunch down the half and everything's just going to slide off. Yeah, you can't gut wrench either.
00:41:29
Speaker
It's going to slip. So yeah, the crotch lift stuff or getting your hand in the pants so that you can lift them by it are the really only realistic options that I'm seeing. I did see a lot of guys kind of do a hooking the elbow on a cow catcher, that kind of thing, and try to wrench people over that way. I saw a little bit of that so I could see that. That seemed to be something that people found success with.
00:41:58
Speaker
But yeah, the only takedowns I saw that really were effective in getting a win, like taking people through to their back, were double legs. Everything else was just, some of the guys in a shot, the guy sprawls, gets behind, maybe there's a peek out here or there. Yeah, but it was just like, it's like a bunch of Jaden Coxes all trying to wrestle each other.
00:42:26
Speaker
You got to wipe them down. You got to wipe them down. But they're more tired. They're even more tired. Yeah, that was one thing I would say. These guys look tired from minute one, like the whole match. They're they look tired. But that's probably just because they're trying to.
00:42:41
Speaker
What's that? They're like Eric Rahales, they're coming into the stadium tired. Yeah, right. Yeah, they're, but you know, I'm sure they're just trying to conserve for like a frickin 40 minute match, right? Yeah, that's wild. So if we're talking it's one 1k competitors, right? One bracket.
00:42:59
Speaker
All one bracket, and they do it over three days, so you got heats, right? So as soon as everyone wins or loses a match, it can't be longer than whatever it is, the 40-minute time limit, then they'll probably get another heat going. Yeah, so if you want to win this, it looks like you're going to have
00:43:20
Speaker
did the math. It's about nine, nine or 10 matches per day or total over three days total total over total. If you were to, if you're saying it's the thousand person bracket, everyone's, you know, starting there. Yeah. That, that works out to, uh, yeah. Divide that by two, nine times over three days. That's.
00:43:39
Speaker
That's not bad. That's already one thing when you're doing, you know, NCAA wrestlers, you know, four or five matches, depending on the backside, you know, seven-ish, I think, right? Probably something like that. Yeah. But that's like seven-minute folk style matches over the course of three days.
00:43:59
Speaker
Well, and imagine if you're you get like a tough guy early and you spend 40 minutes wrestling and your next opponent, you know, later that afternoon, like just freaking mauled his guy. Yeah. And now it's like one guy is really fresh and the guy had already wrestled for 40 minutes, like literally. Yeah, it's it's crazy. Oh, another thing I saw if you at any point, if a wrestler wants to add more oil, they may.
00:44:27
Speaker
So they're like, my dude needs some more oil over here. Hold on. Let me, let me get you bro. Let me get you. He goes over and it's, they're little like watering cans, like you'd water, uh, like flowers with, right? That's what they pour the oil on people. And like, there you go. They, and they're so friendly with each other. They're like very like into touching each other. Right? Like, and I think, you know, I think that's something I noticed with, with, uh, you know, American wrestlers as well, right? We're a little bit more okay with,
00:44:53
Speaker
Grabbing on to each other right like you get in the room, so you know I say hello to people with a Russian tie you know It's it's something that we do right So I see why they do right like it's it's they're just all into it And if and then they can also pause the match if both wrestlers agree that they would like to wash some oil out of their eyes So that's a fair rule I think
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, it seems like a good way to keep things going. Yeah. But the imagery of it is imagine a joust. That's what it feels like. It's like a big kind of grassy area. It could be more of a square or more of like a rectangle.
00:45:38
Speaker
people are in stands that are kind of elevated really close. Um, and it reminds me of one of those like old medieval arenas. Um, and some of these images that I've seen. Oh yeah, absolutely. And then it's like a high school wrestling scrimmage there, like where everyone's there and yet like 20 referees all trying to keep people from running into each other and stuff like that. Um, the rest have a pretty great fit. What's that?
00:46:06
Speaker
the refs have a pretty great fit. They're looking pretty cool. Yeah, and they're not just like referees. They're also kind of like the masters of ceremony too. They kind of like lead people through the rituals that they do before and after.
00:46:22
Speaker
But yeah, like it looks like a fun time. Like I would definitely go to this and watch this. Like this was really cool to see. And, you know, I feel like if they use less oil, they could do more moves and they might enjoy that. I would encourage that for them. But at the same time, you know, I'm glad they got their own thing going on. It's it's it's really neat to me. Yeah, it definitely seems like a great event. Something that
00:46:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's just really, I mean, like steeped in like so much history. It's crazy.
Future Episode Topics
00:46:57
Speaker
It's crazy. Yeah, can you imagine like, I guess like the way the tournament gets sponsored is like just rich people just put up money for it too. And I'm not exactly sure like what happens with the money. I think they like the winners and like second place, third place, I think they all get different prizes.
00:47:21
Speaker
But yeah, I will say like it looked like a really healthy positive culture Like around things like people were like pretty cool and chumming with each other It was uh, it felt like it felt like people had a good time with it It was definitely like well the one of those moments where maybe you go like traveling somewhere and you kind of witness a cultural event that you're not familiar with and but you still kind of feel like oh this is like a
00:47:45
Speaker
Like I feel the community happening, right? That's kind of what it felt like when I when I watched a lot of these Yeah, so do you know if there's any way That we could spectate this Like watch it live. Yeah. Have you been able to find any any information on this if we wanted to watch? But is that what the yearly tournament called again? Oh, uh, uh
00:48:12
Speaker
Oh, shoot. What is it called? Oh, Kirk Panar. Yeah. Do we have any clue on how we could watch Kirk Panar? That's a good question. It might have already happened. Can we gamble on this? It might have already happened, but we could actually... I didn't think about that because you're right. I even said that it happens around June.
00:48:32
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I did not look that up. That's a good idea. We should do that. Yeah, future fun for thought or food for thought. Fun food for thought.
00:48:45
Speaker
I apologize to
Brock Lesnar: A Wrestling Debate
00:48:47
Speaker
any listeners if I sound weird. I definitely got a little bit more intoxicated before doing this podcast than I normally do, but it's okay. It was a fun day. Let's see here. Yeah, and I took a very long nap. This is kind of the sleepy episode. Sleepy cast.
00:49:09
Speaker
Um, but that about wraps it up for, uh, the, the, uh, the wonderful world of Yari Garresh, Yali Garresh, and the Kispet, and the Kirk Panar, and the Pelavans, um, and all the cool stuff that we learned about with Turkish oil wrestling. Um, really, really neat. Can't wait to do the, the next, uh, little cultural exploration. Um, but before we get to that, um,
00:49:37
Speaker
I will be the first to admit that I can be an argumentative person.
00:49:44
Speaker
And I've definitely felt that way recently with some people's takes, some cultural and historical revisionism going on in the wrestling world. And you know what? I blame MMA fans. They don't make it easier. But some people seem to be under the impression lately that Brock Lesnar's wrestling career is worth ogling at a little bit too much.
00:50:14
Speaker
I knew this was going to come up. And I've got to say, what I'm not saying is Brock Lesnar is a bad wrestler. I am not saying that. I am not saying that Brock Lesnar is a bad athlete. I am definitely not saying that. Here's what I will say.
00:50:36
Speaker
Brock Lesnar was a fun wrestler to watch. He was incredibly strong, and he used that to his advantage. But I think people making the claim that Brock Lesnar is just as good as the best modern college heavyweights is gravely mistaken.
00:51:02
Speaker
Here's here's how I'll illustrate that if you go on YouTube and look up Brock Lesnar college wrestling highlights You will not find very many videos you will find with the longest video you will find is a minute and 50 seconds and Every single clip is from like three different matches where he was lifting up a guy in the air because he's very strong and putting him down and getting a pin and
00:51:29
Speaker
And that's good. That's good that Brock Lesnar can do that. He's an awesome wrestler. And it's really cool that he went from junior college and became a two-time national finalist. But when I watch tape of Brock Lesnar wrestling, I look at a guy who is doing his best to have really good defense and looking for his opportunity.
00:51:57
Speaker
When I compare him to modern heavyweights like Gable or Paris or literally anybody in this NCAA wrestling class, he would not AA. I don't know if he would AA. I don't think he would have very many opportunities to AA within the last five to 10 years.
00:52:22
Speaker
I don't think he is quite the athlete that some people might think he is in wrestling specifically. If you look back, you see he wins impressive matches against guys who he can physically bully. But anytime he wrestled anybody good, he was
00:52:40
Speaker
into stalling, he would play the edge, and he would not score any points offensively. There would be escapes, things like that. And case in point, I would invite anybody to watch his two NCAA finals. The one in which he won, I believe he won three to two or something like that, all escape points, and had to rely on... All escape points? And I think he had to rely on overtime rules to get the win.
00:53:08
Speaker
And previous to that, he wrestled Stephen Neal the previous year. And hey, it's I don't I don't blame anybody for losing to Stephen Neal, but Brock Lesnar didn't make it look very competitive. He made it look close because of how he played the game. And yeah, that's a part of wrestling, too. That's that's that's he understanding your abilities and using strategy is part of being a good wrestler for a guy is enormously strong, like the way people talk about it.
00:53:37
Speaker
It was insane, it was incredible. A dude who, you know, if he had the technique, if he had the, you know, with that body, with that strength, if you just gave him the technique of like Lucas Davison, would be an entirely, entirely more dominant wrestler. And even then, I don't know if he would beat Gable.
00:54:04
Speaker
Oh, of course not. Hasn't anyone. It's the stupidest thing ever. It's so stupid. Get the fuck out of here. Do. Yeah, like I saw someone. Let's take a look at this year's. So this year's all Americans at heavyweight. Let's go down the line. Let's go down the line. Mason Parris destroys him. It's not happening. Yeah, Mason. Mason wins that. I mean, Mason trips him with a foot sweep. Greg Kirkley.
00:54:35
Speaker
Greg Hurt Fleet destroys him. Absolutely. Oh, this is a fun one. Wyatt Hendrickson. Wyatt Hendrickson beats him. That's just a better Brock Lesnar. Wyatt Hendrickson could hold position for the first three minutes of the match, and then Brock Lesnar will be very tired, and Wyatt Hendrickson will destroy him. I don't even know if Brock Lesnar would get an escape on Wyatt Hendrickson. No, I mean, if you really think about it, it's like,
00:55:01
Speaker
Wyatt Hendrickson kind of is just a better, I mean, in terms of like, he's clearly the strongest person in NCAA wrestling currently. He's just an absolute freak of nature. He couldn't beat Greg or Mason. And yeah, I think he would absolutely destroy Brock Lesnar. Tony Cassiope.
00:55:21
Speaker
See, now this one I'm I'm less certain about and I think a stylistic matchup. Right. Because Lesnar just shells up. And I think Cassiope needs people to open up a little bit more on him. So I don't know. But I could see it go either way. I think Brock has a better chance in this one. But I still think Cassiope would get it. I think if we're if we're if we're if we're time traveling Brock Lesnar.
00:55:49
Speaker
for teleporting him through time to Russell Cassiope. I think Cassiope takes it on some sort of scramble that Brock Lesnar was not ready for. Okay, here probably just would not be ready for. Okay, here's where I think we're getting to the, these are some good, maybe some better match ups for Lesnar, Lucas Davison.
00:56:16
Speaker
Um, I see Lesnar really being held out muscle him. When I look at the old tapes of him, he might be able to muscle Lucas Davidson pretty good. But I wouldn't count Luke out. No, absolutely not. But it could be I could see him winning. Yeah, I could see him winning that one like two one or something. Yeah. Three two. Yeah, exactly. Like if he if he plays good strategy. OK, Zach Elam.
00:56:45
Speaker
See, I think Elon would beat him. I think he's too athletic for him. I think he's too athletic for him. I think he'd be too fast. Hmm. Yeah. He is. That's it. That's the thing. Is it like, is he even, is he too small or? Well, that's, you know, what are you doing? Someone like Trent Hilger, right? Like Trent Hilger is like really athletic and can move well for heavy weight, right?
00:57:11
Speaker
But it's hard for him to beat bigger dudes sometimes, right? Okay, Colton Schultz. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, Colton Schultz? Yeah, our seventh and eighth placers for this year, Colton Schultz and Trent Hilger. I would just love to see Colton Schultz throw Lesnar. That would be amazing. I think he would. I think he would throw Lesnar. I think he would too. He's so big. Lesnar are not going to be able to move him that easily. I absolutely think Colton Schultz would take that match.
00:57:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Especially when he's healthy. And we could keep going back and there's so many older heavyweights that I don't even think would be very competitive like Tony Nelson. Tony Nelson I think would beat Brock Lesnar. I feel like there's so many heavyweights I can think of that we can pull that would just be like
00:58:02
Speaker
No. So yeah, I had to get that off my chest a little bit because like I said, I don't want to take anything away from Brock Lesnar from what he's done, but I want people to have a better, more realistic understanding of what type of wrestler he was, like the quality of his wrestling. Yeah. They look at his physique and they go, wow, it's incredible. He must have been so dominant and he just, he wasn't.
00:58:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I will say I think because I watched one of his matches from when he was in junior college. It was and it was rough. Like there was some like really not great at moving his feet in a lot of ways. Right. Like it looked like very it looked very like robotic. Right. I think he can get that way. He gets like really robotic with where he places feet and like and trying to move around. And it doesn't look very athletic.
00:59:02
Speaker
Um, and yeah, it looked bad. But what do you see from his jump from there 20s at Minnesota is a much more refined, uh, mind game, right? And just kind of understanding like where his strengths were, uh, when to use them. Um, and he, they definitely made him a better wrestler, uh, pretty quickly just by, uh, switching his behaviors on the mat.
00:59:24
Speaker
Which was good showed that he was really coachable and and knew how to how to adjust that So yeah, once again, I'm not trying to Brock Lesnar as I'm sure you're listening You know, we don't need to you know react in any violent ways about this But as I'm sure you'll love to come on the podcast later on and and we would love to have you you have a right to respond. Mr. Lesnar
00:59:50
Speaker
You have a right to respond or your attorney if you would like to speak through them, that is okay as well. So we'll make sure that you have our email in the description. Absolutely. Lesnar, we want to see you. We want to see you. Well,
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
01:00:11
Speaker
that's about it for today. I guess the last thing before we really sign off is what do we want our next episode to do?
01:00:22
Speaker
If we want to stay with big football field, big old football style field full of dudes just wrestling, then I think we'll go to Mongolia. If we want to hit something different, something entirely new, I don't know. I will say something going on right now is Sumo is getting some swell.
01:00:45
Speaker
I think there's a Netflix show coming out on some Sumo guys. There's a lot of new things happening in Sumo. I could see us doing that. We could do multiple episodes, I'm sure, on Sumo. We might have to. There's a lot to break down. I was looking into that a little bit more, too, and was just fascinated with
01:01:13
Speaker
like the stuff that's going on that's controversial in the sport right now, but probably shouldn't get too much into it until the episode. But I would see that. I'm still down to do a movie review. I think that would be fun. I will say I do not want to do Vision Quest first. No, we can't do Vision Quest. Not first. We would eventually have to.
01:01:41
Speaker
But we don't need to do it right now. Movie view can be good and I also have four days off. I'm gonna be working a 50 hour week this week. Then I'm gonna have four days off. Then I'm gonna work for two days and I'm gonna work for three days. Okay, you got a lot of variety. Yeah, the school system has a lot of holidays. Here's what I'll say. What would you say about doing
01:02:11
Speaker
Foxcatcher. That'd be fun. It's a little more historic. The Steve Carell one, right? Get into RTCs and some of the stuff where some of the new changes in our sport. I think that could be fun. We could talk about that. Yeah, I see those parallels. But I think that there's, we could talk about that. I think what would also be good for us to do is come up with a system of how we want to evaluate these films, right?
01:02:38
Speaker
Yeah. So if we want to do wrestling films, I think there might be some tiers, right? There's a tier of like, these are films that are about wrestling. And there might be a tier where like, these are films that include wrestling in them. Yeah. And then you might have another tier where it's like, this isn't about wrestling really, but it's tangential. And maybe it mentions wrestling, or maybe there's a wrestler involved, right? Things like that.
01:03:03
Speaker
So I think we'd had different tiers, but I think it'd be cool if we figure out how are we evaluating this film? On its production, on its representation of wrestling, what do we want that to be? I think that'd be fun to establish. That would be fun. Yeah, I think we can figure out a little criteria. I think Fox Catch would be a good one. OK. So you want to do that? Let's do a movie. Yeah.
01:03:31
Speaker
Sick. All right. That'll be good. We'll watch Foxcatcher. I'll take some notes. OK. And I'm going to complain. I'm going to complain about some stuff that I think will be funny. We might have to talk about Mark Schultz. 100% we're going to talk about Mark Schultz. And Mark, I know you
01:03:53
Speaker
I know you're listening. You and Brock are sitting on the couch together. You just enjoyed your platonic dinner together and talking about your investments and your feelings and about the things that you might regret in life or the things that you're proud of. And you both sat down with a glass of wine to listen to your favorite podcast. And we talked about both of you.
01:04:24
Speaker
We just want you both to know that our doors open. Anyway, yeah, we'll talk about Foxcatcher next time. All right, let's do it. All right, folks, have a good one.
01:04:53
Speaker
Okay, but we're done.