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Episode 6: Our Greatest Management Mistakes
67 Plays1 year ago
Susie and Courtney open up about their biggest missteps and mistakes from their own management careers. Over-managing, under-management, not setting clear expectations, not giving feedback, over-promising growth opportunities... we've done it all! Through our personal experiences and observations of clients, we share lessons learned the hard way.
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Transcript
Introduction to Management Mistakes
00:00:13
Speaker
Today we're going to talk about something that we've never done, which is make mistakes. Yeah, never made one. no No mistakes here. Started out excelling from day one. Yeah, yeah. 100% perfect management curve.
00:00:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, not a chance. I look back at my career and I have so many moments when I'm like,
00:00:43
Speaker
Yes.
00:00:46
Speaker
Yes. Oh my gosh. I mean, I'm sure I still have those moments where I'm like, oh, that was cringe. Why? Yeah. But the self-awareness to look at it is grown significantly, right? Yeah. All right. Who wants to go first? Yeah. Some mistakes we first made when we started managing people.
Empowering Subordinates vs. Doing Their Work
00:01:05
Speaker
Something that just immediately jumps in my head and screams out at me.
00:01:09
Speaker
I think this is a continued evolution for me, is to jump in and do the work for the people. Like, I think that was a tendency when I first started managing people. And when things are really busy too, it's a tendency when I can find myself even slipping back into that really bad habit of instead of teaching you, doing it for you because it's quicker.
00:01:33
Speaker
because I can guarantee it's so long. Yeah. Right. Like go slow to go fast mentality is a really hard one to get in, especially when you're used to being a very high output individual contributor. And then you're stepping into the space where you're no longer creating the output, but you're enabling the individuals to do it. Yeah. I would say that's a mistake that I continue to make.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, that one's kind of an evolution because it's, you know, old debt taylor swift old habits, dice-screaming. like some yeah It's just so much faster. Just let me do it. Do you have an example of a time when that really worked against you or what some of the consequences of that mistake have been for you? I think current state, I can give you a great example. If I should. I'm extraordinarily good at PowerPoint, like annoyingly good at PowerPoint.
00:02:28
Speaker
And that has been something that was really celebrated and exciting for a while, but then I would get requests from peers and colleagues and individuals to help with theirs. And it over time had become even less about helping it look nice, but getting requests where the content wasn't even available, right? So it became, I was just then coming up with all of it, the end to end, what is the critical thinking that needs to happen for this deliverable and also making it look aesthetically pleasing in powerpoint And I think that's a current state example, but that's less in the management space, but just in a space of where I'm willing to jump in and do that. And instead of saying, what do you struggle with related to what you're trying to create? And let me teach you how to do it.
00:03:17
Speaker
so that I can enable you to do this in the future. It has just been faster to, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll do it. You can hand it to
Setting and Communicating Expectations
00:03:25
Speaker
me. That's fine. I think that principle definitely applies, right? Because you know in ah in a management context, one, then people don't develop those skills. And two, they become used to you doing it, right? And you create the system where that task or role becomes dependent on you rather than dependent on maybe the person who should be dependent on.
00:03:45
Speaker
And for me, it's usually a speed thing, but it's often a quality thing or a perceived quality thing. And it's always a control thing. I have really high standards. I also am a pretty high output person, so I can get a lot of work done in a short amount of time. And I am generally pretty perfectionistic and not everyone is. And so when I get into a management role,
00:04:14
Speaker
It's really hard for me to work with people who don't operate at any one of those same things exactly how I do, pace my version of quality or just my version of anything from a control perspective. And especially as a manager, it's hard when ultimately the quality or the collective work rolls up to you, right? But it does stop with you, so it's so complicated. Yeah.
00:04:43
Speaker
I think that's where one-on-ones can be really helpful too, right? And setting this clear expectation of what do I have the end goal looking like and having that conversation too, because sometimes it's just such a misalignment and expectation, right? Of maybe the individual does have the skillset, but we haven't articulated, we expect them to employ that skillset on this specific deliverable or just what is the expectation? That leads me to a mistake that I commonly make and it made a lot more early on and had to work hard to get better at. It's like a one-two punch of mistakes of not being clear with expectations early yeah and or not
00:05:23
Speaker
saying if expectations haven't been met.
Realistic Expectations of Employee Capabilities
00:05:27
Speaker
The mistake of not setting clear expectations think is a pretty common one. I see that a lot in general and I think some of it is just because we think the way we think and it doesn't occur to us that other people don't see it the same way and so we don't think that we need to set expectations until we get something back from them or like Where were you the whole time? Not what I envisioned in my mind that I did not communicate to you. yeah exactly fact Yeah, exactly. We assume people to read our minds and we believe we can read their minds.
00:05:59
Speaker
and so checking that, making sure that we're not doing that. Anytime we're just setting expectations and being more clear than you think you should have to be. And I to i know there are times when I'm like, I should not have to say this. yeah to people And they're like, Oh my gosh, I should not have to say this. And whether or not you think you should have to You do. I've actually had the chance to coach ah some you know new people managers and that is one thing I've said a couple of times because I've learned it the hard way is say it, say it again, say it again. And then then when you are at the point where you think you cannot possibly say this one more time, say it again. Because they are probably just starting to listen at that point, right? Because we only listen really when it becomes real to us and usually that's when
00:06:48
Speaker
people are trying to get it done or in the trenches or realize oh my deadlines coming up and yeah you just have to say it. I haven't tried to play it back to you I mean I literally had this thing today I had a situation where I was like okay let's make sure we're really clear on what you're gonna do and what I'm gonna do in 20 minutes still. And I was like, okay, so no, no, no, no. These are two different things. but right It was so obvious to me and it was also just as obvious to the other person. We were both just as set in our paradigms about what what was going on. So having someone play it back sometimes can be really helpful, but ah ah similar to just being like, okay, fine, I'll just do it myself. Setting your expectations takes a long time. And it's something that's frankly kind of annoying.
00:07:39
Speaker
yeah to have to do sometimes. And it can be tough to just get yourself to take the time to do it because you're doing it a lot. But if you don't set those expectations, then you can't hold people to the expectation. yeah And so another mistake that I frequently make is holding people to expectations that I have never expressed.
00:08:00
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder how many people are frustrated, resentful, angry, annoyed, all those feelings at work because of that exact reason, right? Either they have not expressed something so they're not getting what they want or they're continuing to deliver, deliver, deliver and it's not right but haven't figured out why.
00:08:19
Speaker
That just gap in expectation. Because you know when someone's disappointed in what you've delivered. Yeah. And you're like, what? This is exactly what I thought you wanted. Yeah. Exactly. Clear as kind. Yeah. Clear as kind. Yeah.
Pitfalls and Roots of Micromanagement
00:08:34
Speaker
The trouble. and And shifting the mindset to that my job now as the manager is not to create the output. My job is to set the expectation of the output and constantly going back into that mindset because it is hard to make that shift.
00:08:47
Speaker
Have you ever read radical candor? I have read snippets of it. She tells a story from her own career of essentially someone whose work was not meeting expectation but instead of giving the feedback and saying you need to do this again and keep trying, she just kept closing the gap for that person and kind of taking it and being like, okay, thanks. And then she'd finished the deliverable until it got to the point where it was so bad that she had to actually fire this person. And he got rightfully angry. I was like, why did no one tell me? Yeah. And I read that and I was like, shit. That's what I do. I will
00:09:34
Speaker
get something from someone and be like, thanks. And then I will just take it and then I will mix that do whatever I think needs to be done to get it up to the standard that I think it needs to be done. I probably spent a good seven years giving no, not quite try again, fix this feedback. Yeah. Big mistake. Yeah. I think that is a very common mistake because especially when you are such a high performer who can create stellar outputs or have a vision in your head if you care.
00:10:04
Speaker
Communicate it externally, right? We're always going to be disappointed. And that's a hard reality as a manager to step into. I hate hurting people's feelings. Yeah. And I've always, I was going to say like two in that example from radical candor. I mean, she ultimately had to let someone go. And it sounds like it was her fault at the end why she had to let someone go. But it's like kicking the can down the road, right? There's I think another common, common mistake.
00:10:31
Speaker
is micromanagement. So then you do communicate the expectation. You are letting someone do it, but then let me see it. Let me check in on it. Or maybe I would say it this way or I would write it this way. Or can you change that font? Can you change those words? I don't like this color and before people can even get to whatever they're trying to achieve. A lot of my management experience, I had a lot of entry-level individuals for a good chunk of time. So I had a very bad habit of over managing them, micromanaging them. And then one of my You know, mentors, that's a symptom, Courtney. Like that's what's, what's the root cause of this? Why are you doing it? What is underlying the need to micromanage? Um, and that's an interesting question too, when people find themselves doing to ask like, why am I doing it because they haven't delivered in the past? Because I don't think they're going to meet the quality I want because I haven't communicated something because I don't like them as a person. and What is it? Like, why are you?
00:11:26
Speaker
They would why tell why why you were kind of why you had that i think you would not be a lot of reasons, you know, that kind of depended on person situation. But I think ultimately it comes down to wanting to make sure we hit our goals that we achieve because ultimately everything they're doing rolls up into my position, my pay, my bonuses, all of those types of things. So it's this fear of maybe I'm not managing effectively. So let me just check on the very mining things that I don't need to be managing. And then it stifles people and they get frustrated with you, right? And then you start to erode that trust both ways. Yeah. I too can micromanage with the best of them. I'm very controlling in my natural state. And so I, but I have a personal experience actually as an employee. I'll never forget this. I was working for someone and this manager reviewed a lot of
00:12:20
Speaker
my writing, like emails that I would write and stuff. And always give me tons of feedback. And it would be better if you wrote it this way and you better with this, if you wrote it this way, blah, blah, blah. And I just, I was like, man, I am a shit writer. And then I got a new manager and I sent this new manager an email to review before I sent his client. And he came back and said, you're a strong writer. This looks good. I made one change here. Sent. And I remember being like,
00:12:49
Speaker
Oh my gosh. It can go like this? It can go like that. And it it was such an aha for me because that was such an employee experience, like positive impact for me. And it's just a freaking email too. I mean, these were not going out to thousands of people, right? Yeah. So what it taught me and what I try to do is to save my management for when it really matters. And there are things that I might be like, Hmm, I don't love it, but does that really matter? Yeah. Or should I save my feedback for something more important? Absolutely. Because if you're giving feedback 100% of the time on everything that people like, I just feel picked apart. I didn't realize that that's how I was feeling until I had this other experience. And so, because I can tend to be the person who's like, it would be better if you phrase it this way. I'm like on literally everything stuff that doesn't matter. I really think about that.
00:13:48
Speaker
It kills your confidence, right? And the receiving end and yeah yeah the efficiencies. Then people start creating really dangerous habits too, because I think it does inject some fear of if I say this one thing wrong in this email.
00:14:05
Speaker
what's going to happen or if this doesn't look or feel exactly as my manager, can I just move forward? Or what if my manager, God forbid, isn't responding and I have a deadline, but I know, yeah yeah, they need to read everything. Especially when you're building high performing teams thrive with empowerment. They love autonomy and flexibility to work in different ways. And when we micromanage, we take a lot of that away. Unintentionally, even if we mean well by it, and we don't even realize we're doing it.
00:14:34
Speaker
we might be taking away those things that are going to build the high performance on the team and start to have those ripple impacts. I don't think I've ever micromanaged not from a place of fear. It is almost always when I feel like I kind of don't know what I'm doing. I'm pretty worried about looking bad and I project that fear onto everyone else by control trying to control what they do. And something that I've observed in myself and I've observed in a lot of other people is when we're really stretched and we're doing work that we that is new or uncomfortable to us, we don't really know what we're doing, we tend to overly focus on the stuff that we do know how to do. yeah And I see this
00:15:28
Speaker
all the time when I'm consulting because I just have the benefit of being a little more removed from situations and being able to be like, it's weird that they're spending so much time on that. But it's not because it's what they know. yeah And so then they can spend a lot of time being busy by overdoing it on the safer thing than like the more vulnerable thing, which is the new thing that you don't know how to do. And that's often when I'm micromanaging, it's usually because I'm kind of avoiding what is harder and scarier and defaulting to controlling. Yeah.
00:16:08
Speaker
um I found too, when I've taken on a team, I didn't know exactly what their day to day was. I could find that I could come off as micromanaging when I was really insecure to your point of like, I don't actually know totally what you do. So I'm trying to interject myself to learn. And then over time I've learned that I can ask that question, right? And put out that vulnerability. And that's actually going to go a lot further to say, I recognize, you know, your specific job better than I do.
00:16:37
Speaker
and that I am in a different position with different responsibilities, but to advocate for you and to show up for you in the way that is going to be best for you, your development, your growth, I need to understand these details and ask those questions. But that's, that was a journey too, because you know, you feel like when you step into something that you were supposed to be the smartest one or the one who knows how or you're there for a reason, but in reality, it's just a very different skill set to manage. And you don't actually need to know every detail about what they're doing. Again, that's kind of part of my controlling nature is that I'm like, well, I need to understand every detail of every single person's work on my team. And like, no, I don't. I do need to understand enough to support them, to be able to speak to their work, to be able to go help clear barriers, but they're on the team for a reason, yeah you know?
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah. yeah thumb I don't know if you've fallen into this space. I don't think I typically do, but I have seen a lot of managers do this and I have gotten a lot of complaints because it's so common, which is under managing your people, which is being the MIA manager or just assuming they know what they're doing, they've got it, or they're not asking me questions. They're good. I'm not conducting regular one-on-ones. We're not touching base. I cancel most of our meetings. Those type of habits that fall into place that really kind of make you seem like a disinterested, unsupportive manager.
The Risks of Under-Managing
00:18:03
Speaker
That's a really common mistake that a lot of managers make too, and that could be because they're overwhelmed, but sometimes I think it's just a misassumption that people don't need you, especially high performers don't need you, but I would argue it's the opposite. They probably need you even more.
00:18:21
Speaker
Yeah, I forget who the original generator of this here is. I learned of it through Brene Brown. In stress, people tend to move towards either over functioning or under functioning. I tend to move towards over functioning and I'm literally always stressed at work, so I'm almost always over functioning, but it's half and half people's tendency.
00:18:40
Speaker
so Also, I think it's a function of being busy and how people operate during stress. And also what have they been told a good manager does? You know, we've talked about this a lot. It's just like this bolt onto your full-time job. So who has time to do it thoroughly? Yeah, I would say I tend to be a pretty.
00:18:59
Speaker
independent to a fault type of employee where I'm like, yes, I will come, I will plan our agenda, I will do everything for it, one-on-ones, I will do all of this. And what's hard is that I need help and leadership as much as anyone. And I think sometimes I can almost come off as, no, I'm good, I don't need anything, I don't need anything. And I generally need leaders who are like,
00:19:25
Speaker
No, I'm going to stay with you, you know. And to your point about being high performers, I think it's easy to just be like, Oh, thank God. One person that doesn't need me. Right. Cause a manager. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. One of the biggest soapbox I get on is regular one-on-ones. And I think people either totally get that or it really throws them back because they'll say, I have 10 employees. You want me to meet with all 10 of them for.
00:19:52
Speaker
30 minutes a week. That's, you know, five hours of my week just talking to people. And I'm like, a hundred percent. That's what I want you to do every single week if you can. Yeah. Maybe even more. That is where you're going to get so much of your insight and your ability to connect and build that psychological safety and that foundation and and to just know what barriers. Yeah. And like what they need you for and give them what they need. Yeah. Totally. Set your expectations. Yeah.
00:20:21
Speaker
Yes, that's a good one. Something that, I forgot what triggered this, but something that may be talking about capabilities. It's a mistake I made a lot early on and I'm pretty good at not making it now. Learn this lesson a couple of times is that I just, I over promise as a manager, I get too excited at the beginning and I'd be like,
00:20:38
Speaker
I think you're amazing and I think that you are going to grow and I'm going to be, ah and and I kind of almost over promise before I really understood people's capabilities. And that got me into some trouble because a lot of that was out of wanting to connect, right? And I realized you can't do that right away. I mean, don't be an asshole. You can be encouraging and kind and connect, right? but yeah I had to kind of learn the hard way that I really need to give myself a solid six months to observe work to see what people do.
00:21:12
Speaker
and not fall in love with what I think someone's capabilities are until I've seen evidence of their capabilities and don't promise shit until you've seen it. And that the business can support it too, you right? And the business can support it. I've also had managers meet me and be like, oh yeah, well I could see you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, oh wait, they say that to everyone? Well, that that means nothing. And also they should never say that to some of these people.
00:21:41
Speaker
but's like yeah yeah I think it leads to a broader point of recognize that what you say as a manager has weight in your head.
The Impact of Managerial Communication
00:21:50
Speaker
You might just be thinking, I'm just trying to be encouraging. I don't actually think this person is going to go do this role, but they do now you've said it and they're looking at their career path or yeah they're in a really tough position. I want to be in a different one and you've just opened that door, whether you recognize it or not.
00:22:08
Speaker
everything you say has weight and is taken with authority because you are in an authoritative position to them and it yeah it carries. Disproportionate weight, right? Especially when you're talking to someone about their career, their opportunities, what you say really, really, really matters. Yeah. Don't make promises you can't keep.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yes. Oh, man. You know, Courtney, it's funny because I think you and I are both actually pretty good managers. So we've made a lot of mistakes ah for people who actually like pretty decent managers. if Managers come in and don't think they will make a mistake. You will.
Recovering from Management Mistakes
00:22:50
Speaker
We talked about this in another episode. The recovery is as important, if not more important than when you make a mistake. yeah Everyone screws up. Scrops can harm trust, but often you can regain that trust and more in how you handle it. So yeah. Yeah. 100%. So I think expect to make a mistake and.
00:23:11
Speaker
recover from it, but it's part of the journey. yep Well, that was fun. It was fun to walk down his memory lane. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. All right. Well, thanks, Court. Thank you.