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Episode 9: Have the WHOLE Hard Conversation
125 Plays11 months ago
In this episode, Courtney and Susie discuss the challenges of half-assed difficult conversations and the importance of clear communication in management. They share personal experiences and strategies for ensuring conversations are fully understood, including the necessity for honesty, the skill of holding space for employees' emotions, and practical communication tools. They emphasize the detrimental effects of avoiding truth and highlight the crucial role of continuous, transparent dialogue in building trust. The episode introduces the 'CLEAR' framework for effectively handling tough discussions and maintaining trust in professional relationships.
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Transcript
Introduction to Difficult Conversations
00:00:13
Speaker
All right.
Consequences of Poor Communication
00:00:14
Speaker
Hi, Court. Hi, Suze. How are you? How are you? I'm good. How are you? Good to see your face. Yeah, you do. You do. Okay. So today we're going to talk about, surprise, surprise, difficult conversations. But something that's come up recently in some examples, you know, some that I've been dealing with, some that some friends have been dealing with is people who don't have the difficult conversation like all the way and or think they're having the difficult Yeah, yeah, half-assing a difficult conversation with kind of disastrous results. And yeah, like, I think maybe
Communicator's Responsibility
00:00:52
Speaker
sometimes we think we're having the hard conversation, but we're not taking it all the way and it actually ends up causing more harm. It's what we're communicating what people are receiving as well. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. It's really a two way, fully understood, comprehended conversation.
00:01:09
Speaker
Or does it leave that 30% of ambiguity for people to make up and fill in the gaps and create their own story? Exactly, exactly. And that reminds me of a quote, I should look this up and see if we can attribute it to someone. I worked with someone like 10 years ago and they said, communication is the response you get.
00:01:27
Speaker
essentially meaning that you as the communicator are responsible
Change Management and Clarity
00:01:31
Speaker
for the person who's receiving your message understanding it. And if they haven't gotten it, that's on you communicator. And I think that really flips kind of often we say, well, I said it, if they didn't get it, that' that's on them.
00:01:45
Speaker
And so that's really guided a lot of my life since then to be like, okay, I'm responsible for making sure that I'm being clear here. And if someone, you know, a month later it comes back and they have no idea what I was trying to tell them, I need to look in the mirror first and be like, okay, was I explicit? Did I actually
Personal Story of Miscommunication
00:02:06
Speaker
say the real thing? Or did I dance around the thing and be like, well, surely they'll get it. They'll get it. You know, yeah they'll figure it out.
00:02:14
Speaker
no what I made the riddle. I mean, they're smart enough to put the riddle together, right? yeah We both have the the change management background and it reminds me too of just a couple of people in the past that we worked with who would say, you know, in teaching of change management, communication,
00:02:33
Speaker
you know, if you're not allowing the time for that reaction, the response, the question, you're also just broadcasting. And one of my early mentors, when I became a people manager also would tell me, say it, say it again, say it again, then say it again, and then maybe a couple more times. And if you only said it verbally, why don't you try email? And then also maybe you could write them a little note to remind them and then give them a phone call. And then if you want to say it again, and then if you're at the point where you feel like you cannot say it one more time,
00:03:02
Speaker
say it again and ask them to tell it back to you. you know Are you truly communicating? Yes. Yeah. Because I think we we know it in our heads. like We've already processed it. And so in our minds, we're there. And so saying it, oh yeah, I said it. brief Barely. i brief i I barely briefly said it. They should get it. We assume that people have then processed it to the same degree that we have and they haven't. Yeah.
00:03:30
Speaker
Especially if
Managerial Influence on Employee Experience
00:03:31
Speaker
it's bad news. Yes. I'm just going to say that. Or you you know, I know many times in my career I've had to communicate messages as a manager that came from leadership that I didn't approve of. I was uncomfortable with. I was not aligned with.
00:03:46
Speaker
yet at the same time, especially when you're in those middle management roles and you're stuck in the middle, you have to then turn around and try to convince other people of this messaging. And that is really hard too. And I do remember times where it's, like you know, the end of a team meeting and I'm like murmuring under my breath, by the way, we're not doing this anymore. You know, try not to actually say it, just so I can be like, well, I communicated it. It's all men. and They didn't hear me because they're already out of the room. I mean, not my problem.
00:04:13
Speaker
ah remember remember okay yeah It's hard. It's a skill like anything else, right? Really learning how to fully communicate. It's such a skill, yes. Okay, so I wanted to share an example story that's like actually a little embarrassing for me.
00:04:30
Speaker
But just when I was on the receiving end of this, because just to kind of illustrate how how important I think this is, especially in a management context. And again, we talk so much about how managers have so much power in shaping
Role Assumptions and Career Impact
00:04:45
Speaker
the experience of their employees.
00:04:48
Speaker
And that often it's those times when you choose to do the hard thing that you don't want to do, is those those are like some big difference makers. So what happened was I was i i was playing an interim role and it was possible that it was going to turn into a permanent role into it and into a promotion for me.
00:05:08
Speaker
and And things weren't totally certain and but it might have been someone else and we weren't totally sure what the role was. So I had gone to my boss who this role was going to report to and just advocated and been really explicit about this is what I want to do, this is what I think I've earned, and why I think I've earned this level of responsibility.
00:05:27
Speaker
And i I just went for it. And he you know he couldn't make any promises in that. you know There were other people involved in the decision and I was like, totally get it. But I just wanted to be clear. I'm not gonna let this go by without you know saying here is here's what I want. And so I got a meeting with a few executives to talk about the future of that team.
00:05:53
Speaker
presumably to talk about what my future with the team would be. But ahead of that, my boss gives me a heads up and he says, you got the role. And I was like,
00:06:04
Speaker
Hell yeah, I got the role. Assuming that I got the role means I got the role that I had pitched, right? Like the the role as we had last discussed it. As there had been no other conversation about said role, right? Exactly. Yeah. yeah So all i'd all I'd heard was you got the role and that, you know, I filled in with, okay, then that must mean what I got.
00:06:29
Speaker
He did say, you're going to need to give up your current role because I had another full-time job. And I was like, yeah, totally. Sure. Yeah. Someone else can have it. I can't wait to give it up. And I was like, okay, awesome. I'm so excited. So then I go into this conversation with these other
Emotional Consequences of Withholding Information
00:06:45
Speaker
executives. He's in that conversation as well. And they say it again, you've got the role. And I was so, you know,
00:06:51
Speaker
I'm so excited, really looking forward to this opportunity. And one of the other executives I think was kind of surprised that I was taking it so well. And so she said, so how are you feeling about it not including this piece? And she named like the big piece that I'd really advocated for myself to take on. yeah that That would have been like the big difference maker in the role.
00:07:17
Speaker
And so she named it and she said, you know, i I know you're interested. You're really interested in that. How are you feeling about not doing that?
00:07:27
Speaker
And I was like, what? Muse to me. Muse to me. And I was so blindsided and I was so embarrassed. And so I had to backtrack and say, oh, okay, hold on. i Maybe we we're not on the same page. Like, why don't you walk me through exactly what you're thinking? You know, so let's not make any assumptions here. And then I like had to get off the phone as quickly as I could because I was devastated. I was totally devastated.
00:07:53
Speaker
cry. And I was so upset with my boss that when he told me he did not tell me the whole part of it, the whole thing, especially the part that would have disappointed me. Yeah. And then he let you have a disappointment 10 times more.
00:08:14
Speaker
in front of other people. there can And I was like, what happened here? So the next day I talked to him and I was like, dude, why and like what Like, how did you, why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me this wasn't the role that we talked about? He said, well, I told you you'd have to give up your current role. And by that I meant, you know, you weren't going to be doing that this part of it.
00:08:43
Speaker
you know It was so it was it it was a damn really big leap oh is a pretty big leap. And this was someone who I know genuinely cared about me, and but really didn't want to disappoint me. And this was going to be a big disappointment for me. yeah and And it was...
00:09:02
Speaker
I understand not it sucks to break bad news to someone, especially someone who you've mentored for years, like he had mentored me, someone who had pitched hard for themselves, like I had advocated for myself and he needed to break the bad news and be like, listen, this is not what I know this is not what you wanted.
00:09:21
Speaker
And he was like, well, but I said, I was like, you knew this is not what i what I wanted. I needed you to be straight with me. yeah And it it was just such a great example of how the effort to try to not hurt someone did so much more damage than if he had been straight up and named, I know that this is going to be hard for you. yeah I know that you're going to be disappointed. This is the decision.
00:09:57
Speaker
Here's why. yeah And I want to give you some time to process that before you have to go talk to other people about it. And think through this new opportunity. And if with the drastic difference, if that's something you're still even interested in having the conversation about. And I think it's such a common thing that we do, right? We're so
Critique of Corporate Culture
00:10:20
Speaker
scared. And you and I say this to each other all the time is just name the quiet thing.
00:10:25
Speaker
say the quiet thing out loud. And we're so scared to just say that quiet part that is literally usually screaming in our head, right? We know he was fully aware that it was a different reality being presented to you than what you thought. And to just say exactly that, Susie, it's not going to look the way we said it was going to look. And this is what that means.
00:10:49
Speaker
ye And this is going to be hard. You said that. To even say that I think takes some pressure off to just say, I know this is disappointing. This is a bummer. This isn't what you wanted. And here is why the decision was made. I found so many people that go through situations like that can move through it better with the reasoning. But for some reason in this corporate world that we've created,
00:11:20
Speaker
and We just created a monster, right? like We don't need to treat people with the human decency and the respect and the detail and explain. This is a corporate decision. This is a business decision. This is a strategic decision. It doesn't make sense. It's all bullshit. There's a reason tied to the individual you. yeah or whomever in the story yeah that something didn't happen and we need to have that conversation. Yeah, why you're not the right leader, why we don't think you're ready. Like yeah it would have been crushing if he had said, yeah, if he had said, we don't think you're ready for this level of leadership, here's why. yeah Like that, I mean, that would have been crushing and I probably would have disagreed.
00:12:01
Speaker
But I would have felt like there'd been honesty. yeah And yeah, you know, we talk a lot about that. I mean, again, both coming from a change management background, you know, people, the first kind of step is people need to know why, not explaining, not just saying that a change is coming, but saying why the change is coming. And that's, every change model talks about that. Every change, you know, you start,
00:12:23
Speaker
Start with why, start with why, start with why. And I always say, you know, because the not doing that is the equivalent of telling a bunch of adults because I said so. Yeah. And I think in situations like this, yes, like the the authority to make the decision was not with me, but the dignity to tell me the truth without dancing around it.
00:12:48
Speaker
and yeah explain it and treat me like an adult, you know, or, you know, treat me like that was, that would have been respect. yeah So, but it was this, it was this misguided effort to not hurt my feelings. And I know that when I have hard
Strategies for Effective Communication
00:13:05
Speaker
conversations with people, I went about it the last mile too, sometimes, because saying it sucks. Yeah, it really does. And it's making sure there's that alignment in the conversation, the,
00:13:18
Speaker
I think you heard me, but are you understanding that this decision means this? Because we're going to go this route means you're not going to take on the position that we said in the way that we said. Do you recognize that? And do you have any questions about that last piece? And that that is hard because that's where the emotions come from, right? There's two-sided emotion. I'm terrified to tell you because I care about you and I don't want to hurt you.
00:13:46
Speaker
also I don't want to deal with your emotion, right? So if I can get 90% of the way there and let you figure out what that means, but it never works that way, right? Even if he had got a little further, you still could have created 19 different versions of how that phone call might have went. And I think that is just a cruelty in its like deepest form, especially like when we think about how much, like you and I were just talking about this,
00:14:14
Speaker
The other day, the Gallup state of the global workplace, I think is what it's called, survey, how only 23% of employees feel engaged in that survey and how 25, 20% or 25, I'd have to look, but people feel isolated and depressed at work. It's these things.
00:14:32
Speaker
They're so prevalent in business and we make them worse to people by not being clear. And I think everybody's seen that quote, right? Like to be clear is to be kind. Because you don't have to, you know, the news, you know, it sucks. It's shit. You feel like crap, but you're not spiraling in all of the stories that are not true that you're trying to make up for it. And you don't have to sit in this panic of, Oh, what's going to happen tomorrow in this conversation? I think, Oh, it's just, I think that is one of my biggest pet peeves. And I had a boss who one time early in my career told me,
00:15:13
Speaker
she would say if somebody was not performing as I wanted them to, or they didn't treat me the way I i would expect someone to treat me as their quote unquote manager, their authority, to just send them an ominous email that says we need to chat and to set that meeting up Friday and to give no detail and to just let them ruminate for a week. And I was like, does a visceral reaction to that? And that I think is a reality for a lot of more egotistical type leaders. like I am in control and that includes of your emotions. If I want you to worry, I'm going to create a stage for you to worry. And if we could put that lens on and if your boss put that lens on to say, this is the embarrassment is the feeling he created for you, right? All of that could have been avoided if you could have just said the hard thing.
00:16:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, and the, I think we try to bleach the heart out of this stuff. It's like if we don't say it, it won't be hard. That situation sucked no matter what. It was hard. I was disappointed. I was, it was, that was kind of it for me. I was ready and it was going to be disappointing no matter what. Right. And so I think
00:16:39
Speaker
it's like We've talked about this with emotions as well. like
Tools for Structuring Conversations
00:16:43
Speaker
Pretending it doesn't exist, not saying it out loud doesn't make it not there. If anything, it then creates even more bad feelings around it. right Because then I felt betrayed and and and and embarrassed and all those things. right and you know We talk also about Regulating our own emotions and you brought you just brought that up and I think that's really important too to say okay What are we trying to put like soothe in ourselves? By not saying it all the way
00:17:22
Speaker
And something that's, so this isn't, I'm, I would say innately pretty bad at having difficult conversations. You said this at the very beginning, it's a skill. And so something that helped me a attend was I went through the Crucial Conversations class yeah many years ago and I totally recommend it. Crucial Accountability is really good. It's just Crucial Conversations about Accountability Conversations. And the thing that I really liked about it is that it it gives structure to like how to do it and there's I think there's some some critique of it sometimes where people are like well then it's formulaic like well better formulaic and prepared and doing it than unprepared
00:18:04
Speaker
creating ambiguity, creating confusion, right? And what I found from learning, and there's lots of there's lots of models, right? There's fierce conversations, crucial conversations, there's lots of lots of things out there to help. But by getting some tools, and then you don't have to rely on your own self to like come up with, okay, how do I say all of this, right? You can go through and say, okay, here are the steps.
00:18:28
Speaker
Here are some sentence starters. I'm going to plan this out. I'm going to make my notes and I'm going to make sure that I say everything that I really owe it to this person to say. And because I know when I get into that conversation, I'm going to get anxious as hell. yeah My heart rate is going to go up. I'm going to get uncomfortable. They're going to get emotional and then I'm going to feel bad that I'm making them emotional. And I'm going to want to say it as fast as I can and then get out of there because I'm going to be uncomfortable.
00:18:56
Speaker
caring for those conversations has really helped me because then
Building Trust in Communication
00:19:00
Speaker
I have an anchor to stay present. So then that helps me not get as reactive myself and then start making decisions to out of my own discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that and being prepared. and So I'm going to say where I struggle, but also give myself a compliment, which is a rare thing but to do. Yes. Yeah. I suck at emotional conversations when it is being delivered to me. So when somebody, or I need to have a tough conversation up.
00:19:32
Speaker
And again, we've talked about that in previous conversations, that that is more of a trust and safety thing upward. I do think I do a really good job building trust and safety with my own teams to be comfortable, or at least I have grown very comfortable with sitting with the emotion, which I think is a really difficult thing.
00:19:54
Speaker
For people managers, like you said, I want to say this and I want to get out of here as fast as possible. And ah one thing that I've done that I think has really helped is like from early stages of management and setting the intention of like, who do I want to be and how do I want to show up for the people that report to me? And I want to be a safe place and a place where people can trust me and that you should never feel ashamed if you're going to cry in front of me. That is okay. Or if you're going to get mad at me, let's have that conversation or if I disappointed you,
00:20:24
Speaker
I am really okay with sitting there when someone's pissed or sitting there when someone's crying if they want that, you know what I mean? But I have learned that if you can ask early in your one-on-ones, and if you're not having one-on-ones, you have to be because they're foundational to everything, you have to. But I ask, like, how do you want to receive bad news before there's bad news to give? Because that's also a very realistic thing to do to say,
00:20:52
Speaker
I'm going to have to give you bad news, Susie, at some point if you report to me, right? It's going to happen. I don't know what it's going to be, but it's going to happen. How do you like to receive bad news? And really trying to honor that. And I've had people tell me like, you have to give me a heads up that it's coming. So I don't care if you text me or you email me and you say our meeting tomorrow.
00:21:13
Speaker
is not going to go well. And that's what we said. You're going to roommate and you're going to sit there. But I have had people say, I have to prepare myself to walk into something really hard. And but and I've had other people say, I need you to summarize it in an email so I can process 90% of those emotions before we even come in.
00:21:30
Speaker
And I've had people just say, just tell me, just let's sit down. Tell me as quickly as you know, get it over with. Like it's a surprise. Fine. Like I'd rather you not schedule it, you know, for a week down the line. Yeah. Yeah. And I found that that has been like half the battle, but also when you can be transparent regularly in those one on ones, the reality of you having those really big, difficult, groundbreaking conversations are few and far between.
00:21:59
Speaker
you've already built the cadence of I'm gonna tell you the micro things that are building up to a potential performance issue and we're gonna fix them before we have the performance issue conversation, whatever it might be. Oh my gosh, you just blew my mind with the how do you wanna receive, I would never have thought to ask someone that. Yeah, that's such a too good idea. And I will credit a lot of some of that thinking to to Disney like that when I did my internship there, I really did get like a lot of those like, how do you tap into the way that people want to feel? And I'm not great, like I fuck up all the time, you know? But I try to make that the base in leaving others is it's not about me. And that's why we hound on that so much, right? Like management is not about you. If you are uncomfortable and want to be on that room, that's your shit to fake, not you Susie. But it is, yeah, yeah,
Impact of Poor Management
00:22:52
Speaker
yeah. you
00:22:55
Speaker
It is my should find manager. yeah If you're managing people, that's the responsibility that you to take on by being a manager. Sorry, dude, you're going to have to have hard conversations. You're going to be super uncomfortable and you're going to need, and your job is to hold the space for the person and your job is to make sure that they're clear and that they're not walking away, not understanding the real deal. yeah And I'm sorry that you're uncomfortable, but you need to figure that out. Yes. Oh my God. In your example too, had your boss just said,
00:23:25
Speaker
The real reason, the why, you could have processed that very differently. Like we take this shit home to our families and you could have had the conversation. And you know what always happens when you don't know like the reality of how it happened for you. You didn't get the details, you didn't get the why. So you probably went home, told your spouse and they're asking you why. And you're like, I don't fucking know why. They didn't tell me. I'm pissed. And so you're taking that home. And I always think about and that in my conversation too is like,
00:23:55
Speaker
How are they going to pull this forward because this doesn't stay here. The way I treat you as my employee, that is so temporary in the big scheme of things. This is a job for all of us. I don't care if you're the chief executive officer and I don't care if you're a frontline employee. All of us are doing this to pay our bills and the respect It exists in the building, but also the disrespect exists out of it. So if you treat me like shit here, we may change careers in two years and three years and four years. And that relationship's broken. Like you have to figure out, like, how do I just treat you like a human man and pay you the respect you deserve? And I don't think we think enough about that when we're managing others or taking on roles or anything.
00:24:41
Speaker
Totally, you know, it's it's so true that again like the responsibility and like the impact that you have Because I will tell you exactly what happened. I bawled my eyes out for an hour Some of that was the result of the decision itself A lot of it was because I was so caught off guard and I was so it was just like this very jarring and I was like Whoa, what just happened? What just happened? What just happened? This was when Matt and I were still dating long distance, but he was in Denver. I was, and I was living like an hour away. And so I got in my car, I drove down, I got to see him for one night and I spent the entire, like one night that I got to see him in an entire month. Talking about it, right? Talking about it and, and ah just, just devastated and doing exactly what you just, what you just said. Trying to figure out why. Yeah.
00:25:31
Speaker
and trying to figure out why it had gone down that way. And the emotional energy. Now I would have needed to process no matter what, right? I would have needed to process, okay, like you said, what does this mean for me? yeah Is this still something i wanted I want to do? This isn't what I thought or what I had hoped. So now I need to assess that, but it it i had it took I had to go through 10 layers of emotional energy of for other stuff before I could get to the real thing, right? And it in and a relatively short, easy thing, a couple a couple of sentences. It's kind of scary. It's a wheel that much power over someone actually. Well, it is terrifying, right? And I think that's why there's such a passion for it here is because
00:26:31
Speaker
it It is a job, right? You're in a job, but we take it and we step into those rules so haphazardly. We pick the wrong people to be in those roles and then we don't equip them. And then people do get fucking depressed because they go somewhere every day where they're treated like shit every day. They're not given the respect and the validation that they deserve as a human being in the conversation because somebody feels their ego in their title
00:27:01
Speaker
gets to dictate some kind of way of behaving that really isn't okay. And I think that's why I have such a fire for it is because yes, good managers can drive business results, and they do. And the same tactics that are going to drive your company more money are also the same tactics that are going to improve the mental well-being.
00:27:25
Speaker
of the individuals who have to work for their paycheck every day. And while making your business lots of money, we can also improve just the reality of the people who exist and work there. And those are the connection skills that we talk about. Talking about feelings, recognizing that feelings exist, yeah being empathetic, radically transparent, right? Following through with the shit you say you're going to do.
00:27:49
Speaker
yeah it's It's not hard,
Advice for New Managers
00:27:51
Speaker
but we don't do it collect the collective we of corporate America. and that's disappointing. Yeah and like the workplace is not a playground for your ego or like for you to exercise your power over other people. I see that a lot too and I think you know when I am working just in you know consulting you get to see kind of this cross-section of organizations and anytime I see just like stupid politics where I'm like wow we are not making good decisions here people are not talking to each other we are
00:28:23
Speaker
you You know, there's this just like fiefdoms, you know that we're protecting like You do realize that your shitty ego shenanigans are hurting the people who are show up every day and put in eight hours a day and trying to do good work because You're being you know, because that's how you because you you that's how you use this place Oh, and that wo that really frustrates me. yeah the pre i mean You and I have been in hundreds of organizations out at the executive table of dozens and and dozens of organizations. And it's common. It's not a unique find in companies. And that is really, truly heartbreaking because I do think that people
00:29:08
Speaker
the high performers that we've talked about and the people who just genuinely like their work and want to do a good job, spend so much of their energy just trying to survive their workplace. Yeah. And those dynamics. Yeah. Yeah. And so I want to i want to go back to some of the things that you said, like when you what are some of your strategies that you've developed over the years to have those good conversations, those good all the way conversations,
00:29:37
Speaker
the The communication is the response that you get where, you know, people, even if you're delivering hard news, they feel respected and they walk away at least knowing what the deal is yeah and hopefully doing it in a way that strengthens the relationship. What are some ways to do that? Well, I wish we could, or we should, I mean, we can do whatever we want, have somebody that I've managed before come on and we could talk about it because I think So I think it just starts from that like very beginning willingness. Okay, no, I'm gonna go way, way back. So I think like when we talk about the antiquated period, I'm right of like, you wanna make more money, so become a people manager. You are the best in class at something. I am the best coder that we have here on the development team. Now I manage coders. Now I manage the, yeah, the developers. That makes for a shitty manager already.
00:30:32
Speaker
right? I don't think you can't say I want more money, so I want to manage people. That's fine, but you have to figure out how do I understand and connect to the fact that I'm here to serve you. And so I am going to say I think there is just a natural, I have a natural personality of where I want to be in service of others. And that has, it's good and that has, it's bad, but it has helped a lot in these difficult conversations and creating a safe space is because And I mean, you've known me for a long time. You could totally tell me if I'm incorrect, but I don't have a large ego for title or for authority, but I, you know, I have the tilts toward, you
Fostering Communication Through Meetings
00:31:12
Speaker
know, wanting to be in control a little bit of the quality of something. So that's a little challenging at times, but for the most part, I, I could care less if I am your quote unquote boss or whatever we're a team and we have to get something done.
00:31:25
Speaker
And setting that mentality up really early is advice I give to first-time managers is check your fucking ego at the door, like 100%. If you have to say your title or tell someone you're their boss or you're in charge, you already have no authority if that's coming out of your mouth. You're already mailing the boss here. yeah I'm in charge. that yeah oh enough that I he said that. if I say that to my four-year-old because I said that to my five-year-old. Okay, watch me do the exact opposite and try to stop me. That's the same for adults, but worse, right? I think it's that really early desire to serve people. And if you don't have that desire, already putting in tactics into place, how to do it and not hinder other people.
00:32:14
Speaker
But I have a soapbox. There's a free course that we have on one-on-ones. I think those are hands down, like we've already talked about, going to change your trajectory with your team.
00:32:26
Speaker
I think what you said there was super important right because you developed the pattern of honesty. and so That way when you have to be honest about something hard, it's not like, whoa, where did that come from? We never talk about stuff like that. It's, oh, I had to dial up the difficulty on this thing we had to talk about, but it's not unusual for us to be honest. For me to be honest, it's straightforward with you.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, and the way you're talking is exactly how I would talk in a one-on-one. Here's how our one-on-one's gonna go. I'm gonna spend the first 15 minutes and I'm gonna talk about all the things that I need you to prioritize within your role. These are things that have to get done this week. Ask me your questions and then you have 15 minutes to tell me anything you need from me. What am I not doing that you need? How am I getting in your way? What do you need me, what barrier? or Who do you need me to talk to if you don't tell me I can't do it for you?
00:33:12
Speaker
that kind of structure. And then there's always kind of like, I don't even remember what I would call it a lot of the times with some of the entry level team, but to just say, this is just like our vent session or open session. Do you want to just tell me something and you don't need me to do anything about it? And I'm going to do the same if there is something And you know, we've talked about the balance too, but there are times I'm willing to say this thing here is frustrating me in the business and this is why, without bashing the business. But to be honest, to say there are difficult things that we have to do because they're part of our job and that's the cadence. But then to say if something is coming up, like I can think of several times where I've had to say, hey, we're going to talk about something and it's going to kind of suck a little bit. But I'm going to tell you now because I don't want this to be a thing later.
00:33:58
Speaker
you have not been on, like especially when I can think of like early COVID times when we are all starting to transition to virtual. like you're really unreachable and that's starting to look pretty bad on you and on me. And so what are we going to do to make sure you're more active on your computer? And like that we phrase to at first can be really helpful because I found after a while as it progresses, it's no longer we, it's you now. Like we have been trying to work on this and I've been trying to help you, but now this is in your court. Here's the things you must do. You must change.
00:34:33
Speaker
or we are going to have a really difficult conversation. This is hard, but the next one's going to be really hard. And we're trying to set that expectation. And it's always worked pretty well. And I don't know, I've just found it just but more transparent you are early.
00:34:50
Speaker
easy Yeah. Okay. So just to reflect back like the elements of that, that I heard. One, you don't beat around the bush. If there's something hard to say, you're not like, okay, ah I'll have the whole conversation with them and then be like, so we need to say, I also need to talk to you about something. It sure started like that, but yes. It's true.
Delivering Disappointing News
00:35:11
Speaker
I saw practices now that you've developed over time.
00:35:14
Speaker
And so you you're kind of you put it out there, you address it quickly. You don't let a lot of stuff linger before you just like say the thing that needs to be said. And you also did something interesting, which you named, hey, we need to talk about something that's going to be uncomfortable, but it's important that we talk about it now. yeah And so again, kind of what we were talking about in my story, of that it would have been so it actually would have been very helpful if he'd said, I know this is hard. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
because then then I'm not like, um oh, i'm a I'm alone in the hard. You're like, we're in the hard. and And so that was the next thing that you said is like starting with we, like we are on the same side of the table. This is not me coming at you. This is me. It's kind of like couples therapy, right? It's not me against you with us versus the problem right now, right? It's us versus the problem right now.
00:36:07
Speaker
I love that. And, but to your point though, that it's appropriate that over time, sometimes that accountability does need to ramp up in a different way and turn more into a, no, no, no, this is on you. I need you to activate, which is totally appropriate, but starting from that weak position. So I think that saying it and ah in that example, like this is starting to make you look bad and me bad.
00:36:32
Speaker
What you didn't do is say, like so I need you to be online a little bit more like duh duh duh. I laughed because I do think something I might say because I do believe humor can help sometimes, not all the time. yeah I think early I fell in like maybe too much of that, but I probably would say something like, you know how that little green checkbox is usually there and it should be green most of the time?
00:36:55
Speaker
Yours is kind of yellow most of the time. What's happening there? And it's a problem, you know? And I think, like it just depends, like how severe is it? In your situation, I would have, I mean, you tell me too, what would you have wanted? I think I would have said, we're about to have a really shitty conversation and it's not what
Creating a Supportive Environment
00:37:11
Speaker
you want to hear. And it's not going to be fun. Like, I think that's probably how I would handle it, but I mean, I would have been terrified to tell you too, but also recognizing, but That's my job. you know That's what leaders do. yeah I was just talking to someone about this. Oh my God. And who went through kind of a similar situation and was talking to someone about it. ah Anyway, and she was like, but that's what leaders do. That's what they do. not And so what I would have wanted, okay, so it was presented to me as a 100% good news story.
00:37:55
Speaker
and he was putting lipstick on a pig. Yeah. And and technically, i I mean, I was being offered a job. Yeah. There were things about it that were not bad, but it, you know, that there were, it it was not, you know, but It was not what I had been explicitly clear that I wanted. And this person knew that. So what would have been helpful. So, so like what you said, Hey, we're about to go in this conversation. It's going to be shitty. That was like 180. What, how it was presented was like celebration time. You guys should be thinking now because you are going to believe it. So what would have been really helpful was we're going to offer you the job.
00:38:46
Speaker
I want to be really clear about what it is and it isn't because it doesn't include some of the things that I know were really important to you and I want you to have that heads up ahead of time and I want to give you some space to process that before you're on camera with other people.
00:39:02
Speaker
And I also want to tell you why this decision was made, right? And I want you to, yes. And I want to tell you why. And that, and, and then just say, here's the role. Here's the level. Here's what's in, here's what's out. Here are the things that I know you wanted to do. We're not going to have you do those and just be so explicit. That, that is what I really needed and wanted. And allow me to ask questions and, and explain why. And,
00:39:30
Speaker
as my manager, the person I trusted the most, being the deliverer of that message and not letting someone else do it and letting, and holding that safe space for me. So that's, what that's what, what I really would have wanted. So very similar actually to what you just said you would have done. Hey, I want to talk about this. It's going to be kind of hard. Here's what's going on.
00:39:59
Speaker
explicit explicit explicit hold space yes hold the space oh and that's a heart that is a hard skill set to learn right because you feel like you have to fill it i have to say something to you i have to fix this i have to keep explaining myself And then now I'm saying too much. Oh my gosh. Let's just say too much or. Oh my gosh. Especially when I get uncomfortable, I just keep talking and talking and then I can tell that I'm doing it. And so it's like in my brain, I'm like, Susie, shut up, stop talking. But then I'm like, no, but if I keep talking, then maybe I'll be able to convince them that this isn't that bad. And they said, oh, you gotta say it. Be clear.
00:40:45
Speaker
don't gloss over it, be explicit. And like you said, I think that the the communication thing, you want to create some space. And I do think you want to make sure, okay, so this is a contrasting skill I learned in crucial communication, it's called contrasting and say, it's what I do mean is this, what I don't mean is that. So what I do mean is that you're going to be doing this.
00:41:05
Speaker
What it doesn't mean is that you'll be, yes, I love that. And then it's, and then you can like, you can kind of repeat what you've said without being like, so I'm just going to say, you know, so without saying it again, so people are like, yeah, I know I get it. I suck, you know? But then being able to like, yeah, but let people give people the time, you know? And I love that because And I always say this every time I bring this example, but I never look it up. So I need to do it after this is the concept of chunking in your brain. You can only absorb so much information. And then when you are given really negative information or surprising information, like in your example, your brain will start to literally just shut down and stop listening because it's still absorbing the shocking, the intense piece. And so if you're like you said, like you tend to fall into over talking.
00:41:59
Speaker
Now you just shared a little bit of stuff that they didn't probably hear the majority of the content. So then they might start reflecting on, oh, wait, did they say this? Did they actually say that? And so sometimes it's really good to ah have the big pause and let people start to process there. And then sometimes it's good to say, let's take a break for an hour or let's come back in the morning. I will answer your questions. and then Oh, get back to bed and ask,
CLEAR Model for Communication
00:42:24
Speaker
here's what I said, this is what that does not mean. I love that, here's what this means and here's what that does not mean. I know, I love that skill. i like And again, coming back to, like I learned that in a class that I took about how to do this, yeah right? Because it doesn't come naturally. And to your point about chunking, and I think, again, because as the deliverer of the bad news, we're uncomfortable. So we just want to say it all as fast as possible and be like, okay, well, I said it.
00:42:50
Speaker
And now they know and now I can move on and now I can get out of this uncomfortable conversation. But if you say it and come back to it, because you're so right, as soon as people kind of know what's going on, their brain is, boom boom you know and for something like this, that really matters.
00:43:11
Speaker
it is especially if it's about someone's career and especially if it's someone who has worked for you for a long time, right? I mean, there like there are certain things that I think merit more than a casual or fast thing. Like saying, I know this is tough. If you want, we can come back to it.
00:43:32
Speaker
or coming back to it, just not not putting it on them to come back to, but circling back and saying, i want it I want to keep that open if you want to keep talking about it. And again, that's part of life. It's pretty uncomfortable to be a manager.
00:43:46
Speaker
ah but like And the thing, like why I love to beat this to death too, is just because you have a C level title, you have not graduated out of people management. That should be like on point at that level. But I have found in my experience, it is usually the opposite. Like the higher you go up the shittier of manager,
00:44:09
Speaker
people become because that ego and the title start to take over. It's like all of the conversations you're starting to have at frontline manager are the same ones you're having at the C-suite. And 90% of management is probably just managing people's emotions, people's stress, people's workloads, their frustration. All of it is like 10% of it is probably delegating and I don't know, prioritizing the workload and oh, but you did remind me of something in that.
00:44:35
Speaker
I think every person like that I know was taught to deliver bad news with a good news sandwich, right? Who was responsible for that? Because we should tell them. I hate that. Let me tell you something awesome and let me hide it. It's like the same thing. I'm going to hide it between the buds and hear something really. Don't do that. If you're listening, do not do that. Oh my God.
00:44:58
Speaker
Don't do it. You're here to officially put the bad news situation. That thing has been canceled. You're canceling the bad news, you know, which. Oh my God. Like how stupid you must think people are to be like, I feel great about the fact that I'm fired now because I had two pieces of slightly good news. Fuck that. Oh my God. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah. And you know what's funny? Like I have heard.
00:45:28
Speaker
some at some point in the last five years, someone actually suggests doing that in a professional context. I know and yeah i know we're laughing about it, but... it Oh, it happens all of the time. And don't just avoid the conversation. I mean, those are all... like i I guess I'd take the but good news, bad news sandwich over just like avoiding the conversation in general. Over not having it? Okay, so let's rank these. The the worst one is just not having it. and Yeah. The middle one is a good news sandwich. Yeah. Just beyond that is maybe like the 70%er. Almost you're delivered. You almost deliver it, but you leave just enough room for ambiguity that people are like, wait, was that bad news? Yeah. Or or like, that that was bad news. I have no idea why and what's going on. And then the best would be clear as kind. Yeah. yeah Oh my gosh. And I think we've talked about that. like
Reflections on Trust and Communication
00:46:27
Speaker
our model of just like clear, right? Communicate with the punchline, or like communicate face-to-face, lead with the punchline, evaluate their ability to hear more, and then create an act, co-create an action plan together, and then reconvene later, right? Come back at the end, whether it's later that day or the next day, you guys set the time, but be here clear. Clear as kind. So just remind me of that. Why have we not talked about that acronym this whole time? I feel like we need an entire episode on that.
00:46:55
Speaker
Yes, so that that one is a, yeah, that one's in our course. It's a good one, huh? Clear as Christ. that's that That's how I think about it all the time. Just like only shit. Okay. Lead with the punch. Like good news, Sam. It's really fucked me up for about seven years. Maybe you spend so much time thinking about how can I balance this shitty news out? Nope. Yeah. People don't want balance, dude. Like they're too smart for that. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. You just blew my mind. I just not remember the clear acronym. And now I feel like this, like we have to do the next, is like a two-parter of walking through. It's so good. It's so helpful. Just so like you said, if you can prepare for it and like gives you the space to create the space, like it's built in the plan, like just take a pause. Society is the absence of a plan. but if you've Have you seen Inside Out too?
00:47:56
Speaker
I love that. Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, no. Sorry. Sorry. Not the second one. The second one. I saw that with my son. Yes, it's so good. I'm going to talk to you about anxiety and she in the end. It's not a spoiler. I'm just trying to protect her. Anxiety. So when you feel your anxiety, that's what I try to tell myself because I don't like level 1,000 anxious person. Okay. We're just trying to protect ourselves, but yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's not about us in those conversations.
00:48:19
Speaker
gosh dan oh we need to make mugs or something that's to your manager it's not about you we ah yeah hug do cases court
00:48:32
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, thank you, Courtney. This is actually, this is actually kind of healing for me to walk through that. but I am sorry. You have been at the hands of shitty communication because, you know, people have been at the hands of my shitty communication. So yeah the circle of life, but we learned in my group, one last note too. It was like such a critical component of being a good manager is building trust.
00:48:58
Speaker
And you can destroy your trust really, really quickly. and so That's just so important to keep in mind too. When you think about how do I want, what is my intention for how this conversation is going to go? And I intend for you to still want to work here and work for me.
00:49:13
Speaker
So how, you know, if we want to make it about ourselves, how do we make sure we protect that? What a great thing to say. Okay. My intention for this conversation is for us to walk away with more trust than less, even if they're disappointed. So how do I need to handle the conversation to achieve that outcome? Oh my gosh. That's so powerful. Courtney, Courtney, Susie Sus. You're going to manage. You got to.
00:49:41
Speaker
and mean it, right? You got All right. Okay. Sounds good. Well, that's the episode. Talk to you later, Suze.