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Episode 8: Listening in Leadership with Amy Haworth
90 Plays1 year ago
Just us for our first-ever guest episode with the brilliant Amy Haworth, founder and CEO of Nobody Makes It Alone as we talk about a keystone skill that sets the best leaders apart: listening. We unpack the common leadership mistake of thinking we need to have the answers and instead how to make listening a superpower to connect work, guide team members, and enhance the well-bring of the organization. We loved soaking up Amy's wisdom and curiosity on this topic, and we know you will, too!
A few resources references in this episode:
- Adaptive Listening by Duarte Communications
- SBAR Tool by Cy Wakeman
- This is Strategy by Seth Godin
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Amy and Her Journey
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to the Managed with Meeting podcast. This is a very exciting episode because it is our very first time ever having a guest and I could not ask for a better guest to have join us today. Amy is a long time friend and colleague and someone we really ah appreciate and look up to as a colleague and and as a leader. So Amy, thank you for joining us. Why don't you kick us off just with a little bit of who you are and how we got here on the Managed with Meeting podcast.
00:00:43
Speaker
Well, first of all, I am so honored to be with you both and to open the door on this whole guest a podcast guest piece of this incredible content and service that you are giving us. i I spent a Saturday morning binge listening to the past episodes and had so much fun because it gave me an opportunity. I feel like I got to know both of you, stories I'd never heard, things I'd never known, chapters of your careers that I had missed, and just hearing some of the challenges that you're addressing through this podcast, through the the content that you're putting into the world.
00:01:26
Speaker
It resonated so much with my first time manager self, and I really found myself wishing I could have had you as a lifeline through that incredible growth period, incredible learning, but one that challenged me and and defined my leadership in a lot of ways.
00:01:46
Speaker
so i i have spent 25 years probably a little bit more than that in various corporate roles I started as a consultant for one of the big five at the time it was not a great fit for me I ended up in a very technical role and I had a communications English and business degree, but I was coding COBOL, which challenged me in many ways, oh including emotionally, I would cry.
00:02:20
Speaker
often at work and eventually found my way out of that and and luckily didn't stay more than 18 months in a career that I knew just was not for me. But I ended up in user experience doing usability testing and information design, information architecture, found my way into content and a wise leader saw my resume at one point and said, we think you'd be okay at change management. These are all complementary skills adjacent and why don't you come over we have a ah project as a
Leadership Insights from Amy
00:02:51
Speaker
contractor and so that took me down a path which led me to meet both of you in the change space and I think that that was probably we're going on
00:03:01
Speaker
10 plus years, 10 to 15 years. And so during that phase, I feel like that was not only a high growth time from a specialty area, but also from a leading people perspective and really understanding what leadership meant, what I needed it to mean to me. And I still feel like those are questions I wake up every day still asking myself because there's and been not only a lot of self-awareness and self growth by asking those questions, but it's also helped me navigate what I say yes to you and what I say no to, including the organizations and people i I choose to work with. Right now, I do have my own company called Nobody Makes It Alone, and that is offering that ability and that empowerment to decide what's the best fit. So you're not co so you're not coding anymore, is what you're saying. oh my gosh career Goodness. Although COBOL is a top skill, I probably should have come up with that. All these systems need COBOL coders to make sure our taxes get filed these days and whatnot. oh It's just so amazing. Awesome. What I already love though about you and
00:04:14
Speaker
What I imagine is true in the way you manage people is if people could see the way Susie and I are both looking at you with our heads tilted and the smile that we have and just this effervescent smile that you're giving off and the comfort that you're bringing to us already. And so I'm just so excited to learn from you in this conversation because that feeling is what I imagine you probably invoked in your team as well with your skill set.
00:04:40
Speaker
ah Thank you, Courtney. Thank you. And I think that's such a big part of the story is you know kind of going into leadership roles. What I believed was I needed to be directive. I needed to be a little bit assertive. I needed to always be at the front of the room. And that was so disconnected from who I am as a person. It was exhausting.
00:05:09
Speaker
And so part of that early journey was really realizing that some of this, I would say more compassionate leadership or the warmth, how to balance and bring the good aspects of that in while still learning how to make that compatible with holding accountability, giving clear direction, not being the softy, or maybe giving people a little bit too much of the benefit of the doubt. And I would say that's still my growth
The Art of Listening in Leadership
00:05:41
Speaker
area. i
00:05:43
Speaker
want everybody to to feel good and to win. And sometimes the hardest points of leadership were actually yeah um that's not going to work or we've missed something and we can't miss again. And I think one of the most welcome pieces of content that I came across was Brene Brown's clear as kind and realizing that those two things aren't disconnected, ah clarity and kindness, but actually they're incredibly compatible. And so without clarity, where we actually aren't being kind.
00:06:12
Speaker
That felt like such an invitation to step into a little bit more of a defined directive at times, a way to manage. And what you just said too of flexing to the situation. You don't have to be one way all the time and like being able to say, look okay, I will adapt to the situation as it calls for, and I can dial things up and dial things down as my team needs me to.
00:06:33
Speaker
um So we we want to dive into something you're really passionate about, which is the topic of listening, which as I think about clarity, it's really tough to provide clarity if you are not actually aware of what's going on, right? And so much of the ability to provide that is by being able to really listen. So you talked a little bit about your early journey and very similar for me if I was like, I'm the boss now. I mean, I just got into some management roles at such a young age. I was so scared.
00:07:05
Speaker
of failing and I was like, okay, well then I'm going to death grip this in my control and I'm going to make everyone conform to my way and I'm just going to beat them into submission and then guess how well that worked. So you told us a little bit about that, but yeah, maybe let's unpack a little bit more of your early lessons and that mindset shift and how you came to listening being a really critical skill.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, I love how you phrase that question because it it feels like trial and error. I think one of the the things that's also resonating is a bit of the canvas for listening. So I had the opportunity to join your webinar on one-on-ones.
00:07:45
Speaker
And I think that that is one point at which listening becomes such a natural part of the practice of creating a great one-on-one. When I think about the elements of why that's true is it's, I think about it is like the three things of the room, the three people in the room, which is the leader, the team member and the space. So that space that we're in is such a key component to crafting a place where listening can happen. I would ah be very considerate of the dynamics of the space. So was it in an open social space for a one-on-one? Is it in a closed office? Now with Zoom, we're also thinking about where are people physically? Is there a distraction that we can't even see for them?
00:08:33
Speaker
This is a distraction for us that we can't see. And so one of the pieces with with listening is becoming very aware that it's not just the conversation or the words that we're having, but it's the space that is a component of that. So preparing our space it becomes thoughtful, intentional,
00:08:52
Speaker
And then the other piece that comes to mind with listening is the dynamics of who who the conversation is for. And so sticking with this theme of the one-on-one, they're really allocating the time. you know There are things that the leader needs from that conversation.
00:09:12
Speaker
But there's also this moment of empowerment to give that time to the team member, to let them create the outcomes. And when you talked about, Susie, there's times to dial up our directiveness and times to dial it back. You know, that whole situational leadership model was such a gift to me as an early manager is digging into what is situational leadership that it's not about the person, it's about the situation. And if they're new,
00:09:40
Speaker
in a situation we might need to be more directive versus if they're an expert. like We can be very hands off and and it's not about the person we're managing, it's about the task at hand. and so I think there's a little bit of that ebb and flow in listening because what we're trying to do is understand, typically we're trying to understand We may be trying to drive something forward. We may be trying to give support, but there's also something that the person we're talking with is trying to do
Exploring Listening Styles
00:10:11
Speaker
in that conversation. And so the listening becomes not about just exchanging the information, but understanding the context and what is the actual outcome.
00:10:19
Speaker
that we're looking for collectively and co-creating here in this space. There's a beautiful assessment. There's been some work done by two members from Duarte Communications. They came out with a book, Adaptive Listening, earlier this year. There's a free assessment online. And what they identified in their research is there's actually four listening styles. There's support where the goal is really to encourage and uplift the speaker. So you're really providing emotional support and you're validating them. The second style is advance. And the goal is to help the speaker progress and you're driving towards a solution.
00:10:59
Speaker
The third style is immerse. And so your goal is to really be in the situation with the speaker, partnering, understanding the context. And then the fourth style is discern. And the goal is to analyze and evaluate the speakers giving you so you can make decisions.
00:11:18
Speaker
And so just even thinking about the flex, just like situational leadership, what does this person need for me in order to help them progress towards the goal? It's the same with listening. If we really ah adopt that idea that there's more than one listening style, even though we'll have a preference, what's the listening style that's needed in this situation? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I've already learned so much.
00:11:41
Speaker
and I want to pause Amy and go back to you because the idea of the space and I don't think I've ever really put that together until right now to even consider what type of conversation am I trying to have and what space do I need to give it?
00:11:58
Speaker
so that it can elicit the outcome or the energy that I'm trying to create. And I even think of that today with my own manager, I feel really frustrated because the conversation never goes how I want it to go. But I guarantee that the space is playing a huge role in that because I can feel that there are multiple people in the room, that there's multiple computer ah computers open and projects going.
00:12:22
Speaker
And that's just such a good point to say, what do I need to clear out or how do I need to set up this space if it's virtual in person so that the listening can happen and the communication can be facilitated? Just what an amazing insight and it's so overlooked. Yeah. I love hearing you say that too, Courtney, because It's so empowering as you think through like, how do I need this conversation to go with my leader? And if, if there's an ask to be made, like, Hey, could we take this on a walk? Or, you know, I'm getting a lot of background noise. Is there any way you could be in a quieter space? You know, just to know that once we recognize how much of an impact that space has on the outcomes, to know
00:13:08
Speaker
that we have permission to ask for a change. But there is, I think space we could totally have a whole tangent on this because I think the whole idea of space and the physical places that we transact in our organizational lives are so symbolic.
00:13:24
Speaker
and there's so much symbolism and and you said it even, it's like, what kind of conversation do I need to have? Symbolically, what do I need to bring in terms of space to ensure that safety is there or to send a message or reinforce that this is maybe a little bit more of a formal conversation? So what does that look like? And even in a virtual space,
00:13:47
Speaker
If it's more formal conversation, what am I wearing? What time of day is it? There's a lot of different ways that our senses can pick up and a lot of different ways that we listen. You know, when you step back and you're like, what is listening? What is it? It's like all the they things. all the things. What came up for me As you were talking about that too is like the intentionality that comes with that. And when you said there's you, there's the other person and then there's the space around it. and I was like, oh my gosh, that is mind blowing. And I feel like the the energy that you're both bringing in to the space is a big part of that space. I had a boss for a long time who was like, if you need to have a big conversation and it's clearly not the day to have the conversation with that person.
00:14:35
Speaker
And for a long time I was like, well, I need to have the freaking conversation. And then I kept just brute forcing these conversations and, you know, and I realized that there was some wisdom in assessing, are we both in the right place to have this conversation? And it reminds me of something else for Nate Brown, the patron saint of leadership said, I think it's something she's talking about, feedback. She has a great checklist of as a leader, am I ready to give you feedback? And one of them is I'm ready to sit on the same side of the table as you, not a table from you.
00:15:08
Speaker
and I read that and I was like, Oh my God, because what is the energy that I'm bringing into this conversation around? And to your point, Amy, again, situational leadership, it's time for us to have a tough conversation. And like actually the best thing is I might need to sit across the table from you because that's part of what we're created. I'd say that's more the exception than the rule.
00:15:28
Speaker
Most of the time it's like, am I ready to sit next to you? Are we on the same side of the table here? And I'm working through this with you and I'm ready to give you this feedback. That's a different energy that you bring in. So when you were talking about the space, I feel like it encompasses physical space, what we're bringing to the conversation, the emotions we're bringing to the conversation, the emotions they're bringing to the conversation. There's so much there and about listening. It's like we listen to all of that. Yes. So much broader, but you also taught me something else.
00:15:58
Speaker
already, which is that I have an active part in somebody else's ability to listen to me. And I never really thought about it that way. Whereas either you hear me or you don't hear me, you're in control of your ears and what you're taking in and what you're absorbing. But you set it up in a way that helped me realize I can say Can you step into a space because I have something I need you to hear or just your point, Susie, to just name the thing. I need you to be on the same side of the table as me so we can work through this or we're going to have a really difficult conversation today and it's going to be tough. That I can almost like physically feel my ears almost change in different ways of what, how am I going to set myself up to hear what you're going to tell me? Because you put the context around what's about to come too.
00:16:44
Speaker
and you can take some ownership in how people listen to you. I feel like you both just put a bow around this muscle that we almost, we just sort of take it for granted. I feel like in some ways listening is like breathing. It's just what we do. Cause it feels sort of involuntary and maybe that's the difference between hearing and listening. And I do think there's a difference. Oh my God. Different hearing and listening.
Enhancing Communication through Listening
00:17:13
Speaker
but yeah maybe some Maybe someone's already made like a meme of that, but I feel like that just hit me. I don't think we stopped to think about that, right? Because it is. We treat it as involuntary. We're hearing everything, and so it's all just noise at some point.
00:17:28
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Sorry. I that's just like that just risk and i totally interrupted this great sentence. It just gives me so much joy to be talking about this and feel like there's light bulb. I can't even tell you like, like I feel so seen. And I do believe that it is that because we don't get to shut our ears down.
00:17:51
Speaker
with a door, you know, where where we could shut our eyes, like you could close your eyes, you can't close your ears. And so we take in a lot. And so really learning how to listen is the practice of learning how to filter what isn't material.
00:18:09
Speaker
but also to listen for what is, what is material and what are those things that are being said and what are the things that are not being said. Someone told me that, oh, early as a leader and she said, I listened for what is said and what isn't said. And I rocked away and I was like, what does she mean? And it was really like, I spent like, scar Like, I don't know if I'm listening for what isn't said. Am I listening for what isn't said? But I've thought about it for years since then and really tried to question myself. I'm like, yeah, because oftentimes in the stories or the narratives that we're hearing as leaders, whether it's from our colleagues, our boss, from our people, one of the biggest challenges
00:18:54
Speaker
was, well, what am I not hearing from you? Or what part of the story it needs to be filled in? The stories are simply with every bit of information we get is processed through someone else's lens. And then we get to process it through hours. And so trying to pull that apart, and that's a place where listening as a leader becomes so essential, is not only allowing the information, but to to deepen it for context,
00:19:22
Speaker
for guidance to help our people create their own insights from what's really going on. And then to go back to those four listening styles to really figure out like what's our role in this? Is there something needed from me? Am I here to be a supporter?
00:19:37
Speaker
is Is there a decision? Is there partnership? who Is this part of how we're going to actually get to a decision or an outcome? the And slowing down when I think through, well, what do you do to actually strengthen your listening muscle? I think, number one, step number one, and Slow down. Even if that means that you need to create buffers in your day because true listening involves a lot of processing, that's work. You know, I think we have this habit of thinking through, well, if we're not talking, if we're not working, if we're not,
00:20:15
Speaker
in dialogue. yes yeah But that processing piece is energy and it takes energy to listen. And so be kind to yourself if you're really going to start focusing on, you know, I want to dig into this a little bit. I want to think about the habits I have or the patterns I have.
00:20:34
Speaker
and how that's either helping or hurting my ability to truly be present and listen and process what's being said. I would start with, look at your calendar. Are you creating the space that you need to start up as a deep listener?
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah. And it feels like it's a, you know, a skill set, but a habit and the muscle that you're building too, because I mean, even in this moment, it was such good examples, you're saying slow down how easy it is to be pulled out at the active listening. You know, I say that as a spy is going around my head a thousand times. And I'm like, just Shoe flies, I'm trying to listen and it pulls you out of that. It's like, now I have to zone back in and slow down and forget about the fly. And so you're almost like having to teach yourself how to come in and out of the waves of how you're able to listen and refocus your intention too, which when you're aware of it feels kind of weird. Cause you're like, oh, I did just, I did just kind of zone or switch or flip into another mode. And to be able to get back into the effective listening space is a skill set.
00:21:36
Speaker
Yes. And I think, too, when I think about the slowing down, Amy, I think that is so critical and so hard in today's organizations. I don't know many leaders who don't have back to back, eight plus meetings a day. Yeah.
00:21:55
Speaker
which is nuts. So then there's an opportunity cost to every time you slow down to really listen to someone because there's 10,000 other things that you're not doing at that moment. And you're just like, next, next, next. you're You're trying to crank through so much, especially if you don't see listening as this high value activity as a leader.
00:22:19
Speaker
And so if you're not like, this is one of the most important things that I do as a leader, then you sure as hell are not going to slow down to do it because you've got way too much going on. And I think that's the space I very much get into still mostly now when I'm stressed, I've learned how important it is, mostly the hard way.
00:22:41
Speaker
But I'd say earlier in my career, I was like, oh my God, I do not have time to just listen to you talk. I have 10,000 other things to do. So it was like very rapid fire. And once I changed this mindset, like you said, talk less, listen more, draw answers out a little bit more, you know, that's a part of my role.
00:23:02
Speaker
And when I started realizing that my full presence and attention in that moment was the highest value use of my time. And I actually started believing that not like, yeah, I need to be present, but like no, actually being present is the highest, best use of my time right now. That changed everything because then I actually did start being present and they did start making much better use of the listening that I was doing, but that is really hard.
00:23:28
Speaker
when you're like, I've got 17 minutes until my next meeting starts. So practically speaking, how do people do that in today's world that is so packed? Yes, yes, practically speaking. And I think it's such a fair ask.
00:23:45
Speaker
of team members to do some of their preparation prior to coming in. you know I think this is a collaborative partnership and also so fair for leaders to be like, I got 17 minutes. I love the tool bottom line up front. Bluff, bottom line up front. Tell me your headline. Give me your bullets.
00:24:07
Speaker
Give me a conclusion. What do you need from me? And so providing some actionable formats, there's another tool. It's called the SBAR
Communication Frameworks for Leaders
00:24:14
Speaker
from a woman named Si Wakeman. I don't know if you've seen her work before. She has some good stuff. And I think that that is a fair ask coming in to lead a team of we're all hungry for time.
00:24:27
Speaker
and When you do need something from me, here's my ask of you. Put your thoughts together. Here's a couple frameworks that I found to be helpful. Try them on for size. See which one works the best for you. But come in with clarity because the last thing that I think is fair to anyone is to just be almost too accessible. It's just a catcher of noise. and And by helping your team figure out how to organize their thoughts, you're actually helping them not only in situations with you, but with peers, with other leaders, with themselves as a future leader. And so some of those, it's just fair. It's like, okay, this is how we're going to operate this. Yeah. It's such a good point too, to slow down so you can go faster later.
00:25:15
Speaker
And that's something I learned the really hard way. And I'm sure I've managed some really big teams and at my most was 35. And that's a lot. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of oneon one-on-ones. And I found myself always spinning in this space of, okay, I have so many meetings and I have to go do this. And this is coming next. And who said that thing last week that I was supposed to do? And I was creating my own chaos because I wasn't taking the time to do what you said, to prepare or to set people up with the frameworks and the structure that they needed to get from me what they need.
00:25:44
Speaker
And I'm at a point now where I hate hearing the word that I'm too busy or everybody's busy and I just don't think it's an excuse anymore. It just pisses me off in general. No, we're not doing something effectively or we're not thinking through it. And so I love that framework because you learn over time, if you slow down to go fast, you pick up on the energies of people and you pick up on their communication style and how they need to deliver messages to you. And then you can start to have those transparent conversations. Like I can think of a former person needs to work with.
00:26:14
Speaker
we would always butt heads communicating and I could never understand why he would tell me something and I would say yes or no really quickly and say here's why and I was like that was super effective use of my time and so one day he was so frustrated with me I said can you just help me understand like what's going on here I thought we needed to move this forward he said that was a really creative idea and you didn't give that recognition, any recognition at all. You just went straight to yes or no, we're going to do it. And you didn't talk about how unique it was or how much time I put into thinking about it. And so I learned, yeah, so I learned to kind of adapt to say we really need to give some credit to the energy and the time and the effort before we jump to the solution here. Whereas other people might mean that would drive them nuts. And so figuring out to their personal preferences, you're not spinning for 12 weeks trying to figure out where the frustration point is. What a great Great example, Courtney. And kudos for the situation of like that you got deeper into it. if Okay, this is a tension that doesn't feel healthy. What's going on? And then the courage to really figure out that there was some nuanced needs that go stylistically. I think it goes back to the whole
00:27:26
Speaker
love language idea of if we operate the way we operate, the way we'd like to receive information and just stepping back and being like, oh, okay, I've got to just shift this a little bit because there's a different need here. And learning you know how much feeling valued and seen matter to someone and then realizing, oh my gosh, I've been making you feel invaluable and not seen for so long. in I think really early as a manager, I would have actually probably been defensive to that. No, we're we're trying to work here at work. We're gonna get stuff done, but that doesn't work either, right? So it's really hard too to say, you're right, I did do that. And let's fix it going forward. and And I don't think if we don't slow down to your point, that we're ever able to step into that space to say, it's not working for them. And managing is not about me. It is about them.
00:28:17
Speaker
here That is a sound bite right there. Managing is not about me. It's about them. I love how that comes back to
Leaders as Coaches and Listeners
00:28:28
Speaker
adapting to the situation at hand too, because there might be times when, okay, we're talking about a creative idea and that requires a different type of listening for me versus something else that does require something maybe more directive, right? And so learning to index your style of listening. Coming back to something you said earlier about this mindset of like, I need to have the answers and I need to talk more. That's my job as a leader.
00:28:56
Speaker
That's always listening to determine your answer, not listening to do anything else. So I'd love to come back to that, having the answer thing. And that that was very much me. I mean, I think a lot of people struggle with that. It's like, okay, then what is actually the higher purpose of listening for leaders? If it's not to have the answers.
00:29:17
Speaker
And what are you there for? Because I think a lot of people would be like, well, but I'm the boss. So if I don't have the answers, who does? Right. Yeah. And I feel that people would come to me with, what do you think we should do? I mean, just asking that question, I'm like thinking to myself, I don't know thinking about this. I have no idea what we should do.
00:29:38
Speaker
and then feeling the pressure, but I'm getting paid to know what we should do. And so the flipping that script, so much data and research is coming out about and leader as coach. So what does it mean to show up as a coach in a leadership role, which means that the people you're leading actually have the answers. Your role is to help them unlock that insight and find their path forward, which means you got to listen to what they're saying. And so our role becomes how do we respond in the way of a question and not question like a Socratic method like I have the answer and I'm going to ask you a question until you get there but kind of question. But like literally I have no idea
00:30:22
Speaker
Let me ask you a question because I too am curious about this. And so not only does it take the pressure off as a leader, you don't have to have all the answers. But what you do need to do is be in the moment with the person listening to what's happening so that the question you ask is actually relevant. It's really hard to ask a relevant question if you're not really listening. And so that looks like picking up on patterns. Was this there something that they said? Was there an obstacle that you're sensing and but they haven't yet identified? And so starting to figure out, like, what are some key things you're listening for? But I think that the key piece is just reframing our role. It's not to have all the answers, it is to be the coach.
00:31:06
Speaker
So as somebody mentioned this early in my leadership time, which is ultimately you're raising up your successors. You're working yourself out of the job. You can't get promoted unless you have somebody to fill ah your spot. And so if you think about being a a coach on the field, it's hey, my plan is to be in my next role two years from now. I need to make sure that I have at least one, if not two or three people who can do my job better than I can in order to make that an easy decision.
00:31:35
Speaker
Our focus shifts. It's almost, it becomes an apprenticeship model versus a leader manager type situation. What a way to flip the scarcity, fear of your people exceeding you. I'm trying to go up, so I'm going to need one of y'all to take a look. That is such a good point because that's such a problem today. Managers are so protective. like I have to be the powerful one. I have to know everything. But people see through that really quickly too, and I don't think that a lot of leaders who aren't practicing self-awareness
00:32:08
Speaker
really realize either is people know when you're not listening one to your point, Amy, and when you ask a question that is completely misaligned, that is just breaking down psychological safety. It's making people frustrated. It's creating problems. And so I think, Susie, you asked the question, chip what is my bigger role in having to listen to people if it's not to solve problems? That's half the battle is just eliminating some of the emotional weight that people are carrying. And I don't remember who taught it to me.
00:32:36
Speaker
Somebody at some point that I crossed paths was saying, you can also just frame it as, are you telling me this just, you know, because you need me to hear it or are you telling me this so that I can help you solve it? And that framing also helps go so far too, because I know I have with both of you here where I've shared something for no real reason other than to feel seen and that's it. And then being noted.
00:33:02
Speaker
And having myself recognized is enough to just move forward from whatever the issue was. There's no real solution that ever had to occur. But I think of how often that's not happening for people. And we see those stats that managers impact people's mental wellbeing more than their spouses do. And I think so much of it could be fixed if people could learn a listening with intention that you're talking about. Yeah. I think that same people.
00:33:31
Speaker
is almost, it almost, I don't know, maybe almost isn't the right word. I'm trying not to use the word should. It feels like we should consider how important seeing people is in the job description of a manager. Oh my God. So so good.
00:33:53
Speaker
And it feels like now more than ever, we've seen so much good writing, but without a pure solution about wellbeing and wellness in the workplace. And you know post COVID, there was a lot of good tries. We really tried some new things, but the data is telling us it's not working. We got to try something now. And and so that essential role of the manager to create those safe spaces, to see people to celebrate the strengths, to come alongside and say, we're going to get across this finish line together. Or if it's not working, I care deeply about you. This is not the place you're going to succeed after a pattern of missing the mark so many times. It's time and that we release you and doing that with dignity and respect and honor. And it's just realizing, call the heroes of organizational life. And it's no longer just organizational life anymore. It's life.
00:34:53
Speaker
mid-managers and there are also the ones that are just man-slammed and maybe don't have the the same luxuries to choose how their time gets spent. So to me it's such a pragmatic, like it's always disappointingly pragmatic why they matter so much. First of all, the word mattering, like what you said about wellbeing, I think people knowing that they matter period is a very fundamental part of wellbeing of like, do I matter to someone? Does someone know I exist, give a shit about what I'm doing? like Do they even know and care?
00:35:31
Speaker
And in an organization, if you think about a company of 500 people, a fairly small organization, or 50,000 people, there's a lot of individuals, way too many individuals to feel like they matter to one of the, very at the top, right? But managers are how you scale mattering because they know what's going on with the people who report to them. And your eyeballs on that person's work really matters to them.
00:36:04
Speaker
And that's how they know that their work matters. yeah And so if my boss, my own boss, my own boss doesn't care or doesn't have time to even know what's going on or take the time to listen, I think that deeply influences people's feeling of I matter to this organization because the one person who should care the most can't slow down enough to listen to me or is demonstrating one of these other less adaptive, less right for the situation types of listening. yeah It's just so, but managers, yeah. Scale mattering. Scale mattering. I love that. Yeah. And that's why we have to shift this, right? It just, oh I just, I won't get on that soapbox right now because I want to go back to something you said. You said, listen for what's not being said.
00:36:56
Speaker
And I think people still might not understand, well, what do you mean? How do I listen for something someone's not saying? So could you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that? Yes. The coach in me wants to say, everybody do that as homework, write your own definition of what you think that means to you. And then we'll come back and in a week and we'll talk about it. But if you want to do that assignment, you can pause right here, do the assignment, and then come back. So for me, this is how I processed it. because I don't think there is one right way to think about that. But in our interactions, when we are hearing details that, again, details have been filtered out for our consumption, what are important elements that we as leaders would expect to be part of those details and we're not hearing addressed?
00:37:46
Speaker
So that's one thing that comes to mind. An example of that might be, what was your role in that situation? Or what information am I not hearing right now? I mean, you can even just ask it flat out. What information are you holding back or probably something a little more positive than implied negativity. But so that could be one example of it. But then the other piece is when we understand the organizational dynamics, but especially when I'm thinking about direct reports coming to us, what
00:38:19
Speaker
is not being said. We often have a viewpoint into other elements of the organization, the ways work gets done. And if we're not hearing some of that come forward, a it kind of feels like a Swiss cheese. You know, it's like, where are the big black holes it in this? um Because we're aware of the way work flows and moves.
00:38:41
Speaker
And so when those elements are missing, I think that's a clue for us to be like, well, what else is going on? Or who else should be part of the conversation? Have you talked to fill in the blank? um What we want to do in those situations is to help the navigation happen to turn the Swiss cheese into something a little more solid. But when there's pieces that
Strategic Listening for Organizational Success
00:39:03
Speaker
aren't in the story, but it's a good idea to probe a little.
00:39:09
Speaker
And that was very hard to do if you were not listening. Right. When we said the question, what's the higher purpose of listening for leaders? If it's not to have the answers, like I said, managers scale mattering, but they also ladder back up work to, are we all rowing the boat the same direction? And the higher you get, the broader your aperture is of all the work coming together to ultimately are we achieving our mission.
00:39:37
Speaker
eight And the companies that I've worked with that are the least functional are leaders at the higher levels who aren't listening to each other and not connecting the work across each other.
00:39:50
Speaker
and don't know what's going on in each other's parts of the business. And so then they're not saying like, Oh, wow, that's way out of alignment with what we're doing over here. And they're not able to connect the worker course, correct. If we're all rowing the boat a different direction. And so I do think a fundamental part of listening, the strategic part of listening that is the leader's job.
00:40:14
Speaker
is to listen and say, are the pieces of work coming together the way we need them to, to move whatever my level of responsibility's purpose is forward? And then the next level up is, okay, are now these pieces coming together and up and up and up, and you have to really be attuned to what's going on to do that. Yes, like a giant capital.
00:40:40
Speaker
the So I think that's the higher purpose of what's solved.
00:40:48
Speaker
ah Yes, that is the higher purpose. it And as I think through, and you said it so beautifully at the beginning, Susie, like the cost of that, as you move up the organization, the cost of not knowing those impacts or those intersections becomes greater and greater. I had the opportunity earlier in the year to be part of a group coaching experience and the topic was around executive presence. And we all just reflected on, when you think of a leader who you would identify as having executive presence, what is it that you picked up on that that leader did that signaled to you that they had presence?
00:41:37
Speaker
And what they identified was not the talker. They identified the listener as the one who was the executive in the room. And that to me was so powerful and so full circle to my own journey of the world tells us it's the talker. It's the one with the most dominant voice. But if you walk into a room and you need to identify who's the real leader here,
00:42:01
Speaker
It's going to be the person who's quiet and listening. And to your point, Susie, I think that that is such a statement of seniority, you know, possibly part of the path to learning. How does my organization run? Those leaders along the way have learned that to do that well, it looks like listening, understanding what those intersections are and helping the organization navigate through it.
00:42:28
Speaker
Can you fake it? Like, can you fake it? Like, do you know what I mean? What do you think? Can you? Everything inside of me wants to scream no, but I'm not sure if that's true because I don't think I can. Do you think you can? I feel like I can tell the moment someone is no longer actively engaged in the conversation. And I'm like, hello.
00:42:55
Speaker
I think that's a fun experiment to offer to us and to this group is just turn your sensor on. See if you can identify. Is someone really with me? Have they disengaged? There is a whole school of psychology. Carl Rogers was one of the for psychologists to go down this path and I'm going to mess it all up. But his premise was just being able to reflect back to people opens up this wealth of information that they have. And that could actually be a great, you you all are making me think about, you know, a seven week experiment here this week.
00:43:32
Speaker
Try just reflecting back what you hear the person saying. Tell me more. A great book is The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Steiner. And it's five questions any manager who wants to kind of practice with some of these coaching ideas, asking questions. I think taking the fear out of, if I'm really listening, what am I going to say? This is a great book to help you get over that fear because you can cheat sheet the five questions, keep them handy. I would also encourage, get comfortable with silence.
00:44:05
Speaker
so A silence is something that that a lot of people are just afraid of having happen in the space. So week two experiment is extend the silence, give it four to six seconds and let it sit in that room and don't be afraid and watch you breaks the silence. And then what sort of information emerges?
00:44:29
Speaker
with that silence breaking. So that's week two experiment. i'll I'll try to figure out a few more experiments to send your way. Well, and Amy, what you were just describing were some really practical ways I think that people can start, like you said, building this muscle of, okay,
00:44:45
Speaker
just try playing it back. I found that one super helpful because also sometimes I've gotten it wrong. I learned that skill too. And they were like, and also it's helpful to check if you've gotten it wrong. And I was like, well, that will never be the purpose that it serves for me because I always get everything right. No, so it's really helpful because then I can say, okay, repeat back, repeat back, or repeat back. And they're like, well, it's not quite that. And I'm like, oh, okay, let's go through that or tell me what I'm missing.
00:45:13
Speaker
I think that helps too, because you're processing everything through your lens too. Taking the moment, letting the silence fill for me, even taking a breath when I'm really struggling to slow down. A couple of these other really practical things that that people can do to to just build the muscle of listening.
00:45:33
Speaker
First thing I would say is listen to yourself. So interestingly, I'd start with journaling, stream of consciousness, journaling, learn how to really listen to yourself. And it has the the extra effect of clearing the noise so that you can create some space to truly listen to what other people are bringing into your world. The other one, we talked about getting comfortable with silence, holding it longer than you think is humanly possible. And the the third one I had to offer with listening is listen with all your senses. We talked about that at the beginning. Really think through what is the visual um listening that I'm doing right now? What's the tonal? what's the
00:46:16
Speaker
energy that I'm picking up here. So we got into that with probably two minutes in, but I think that's such a great way to not only pick up on more of the message, but also to stay present is to bring our other senses into it, including what is this doing to me as a receiver? you know Am I aware of how this message is landing with me?
00:46:41
Speaker
and consciously paying attention to your body, paying attention to your own thoughts, and then giving yourself a beat before you respond to having assessed what's going on with you.
00:46:54
Speaker
I would love to continue this conversation at some point because the biggest question that I'm left with and I felt a strong sense of conviction as you were talking about the executive presence thing and I was like shit about myself is that I love to talk and I think I have pretty good ideas so then I was like oh my god what I was having a small crisis and When do I get to talk? Which is a very interesting that that's where I got. So I think it would be interesting to explore the other half of that at some point of then what's the flip side and what is the role of what you give back because you also can't be like fully mute the whole time. What's the high value thing that you bring? And that as a leader, your discernment about what that is probably changes over time.
00:47:48
Speaker
I would love to explore that because I also think that's you know beautifully matched conversation with seniority and what the ex at the organization rewards and there's a lot of different like swirly connection points for that one. And I love that you brought it up because I think the last thing I would want is someone walking away and being like, well, I got to mute myself. It's a perfect word. I got to mute myself in order to get promoted. No, no, no. But I do think there are some awareness pieces to keep in mind of choosing your situations, choosing your audience, knowing what's in your deck of cards and which card are you going to play in which game and
00:48:27
Speaker
ah Sorry, I was listening to Seth Godin just has a new book. ah This is strategy and the he was talking about just like, it's all a game. Like strategy is just a game. So <unk> I want to just be clear about where that word came from, but we are, we we play out.
00:48:45
Speaker
games in our organizations. There's different rules. There's a different board. There's different players. There's different cards. Each of these organizations has a game going on and just know what game you're in. Know when it pays to listen and when it pays to offer your wisdom. And then i game is great too, because in the end I'm like, I just want everyone to remember to have fun. Like at the end of the day,
00:49:16
Speaker
Don't ever let the fun go away from leadership because it's a different adventure every day. And if it's not fun anymore, it's time to pick a different game. So that's my parting words tonight. Yeah, what a good way to close out. And we thank you for being our first guest on our podcast. You were amazing and I learned so much from you. So I'm so excited for everyone listening to learn too.
00:49:45
Speaker
Thank you so much. Keep up the great work, you two. I'm so just excited to see this flourish and can't wait to see where it goes. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Bye.