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Episode 3: The Sh*t No One Talks About - Part 1
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In this episode of the Manage with Meaning Podcast, the hosts tackle the tough truths about being a manager that often go unspoken. Courtney discusses her popular Instagram post, shedding light on the real challenges of management, like mismatched job descriptions, dealing with bureaucracy, and the emotional toll it takes. They also share personal stories about the surprises and struggles of the role, including balancing old tasks with new responsibilities and managing team dynamics. The conversation emphasizes the need for honesty, transparency, and realistic expectations in management.
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Transcript
Introduction: The Unspoken Truths of Management
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back. The Managers Meeting Podcast. It's episode three. How you doing, Court? I'm good, Suze. How are you? Pretty good. I'm excited. I'm excited for today's topic.
00:00:26
Speaker
Yeah, me too. We are going to talk about the shit that no one talks about, actually, today. We're going there. Courtney, this is one of the posts that you have been... When did you first publish this? Actually, why don't we have you give a little bit of description? You posted something about the shit no one talks about, about being a manager. So do you remember when you first posted that and kind of describe a little bit of what that post includes? Yeah, mostly.
00:00:56
Speaker
Oh gosh, probably like eight months ago at this point. So probably late 2023, mid 2023, started posting about it because I noticed a lot of themes and the questions and conversations that were coming up on some of the other content I was posting on Instagram.
Challenges of New Managers
00:01:11
Speaker
And there's just such a light shining on this reality that we think that managing people is going to be this, you know,
00:01:24
Speaker
Just, I don't know, easy step up from an individual contributor that we're going to get more money and do something similar to what we're doing today, but maybe just take on this, you know, oversight of other people, but it's really a completely different job role. And I think we set managers up to fail because we don't practice a lot of radical transparency in what their day-to-day life is going to look like as a people manager.
00:01:49
Speaker
And I think people can do really well with those shifts if they walk into it with the right expectations. And so I just took some time to reflect on what was so surprising to me coming into the people manager role. And was I really set up for success with it? And it just really comes to be that there's a lot of shit we don't tell people. And then we're surprised when they struggle with it. And I think if we could really have honest conversations about
00:02:18
Speaker
What does it mean to step into this role? We would make a world of difference in the way that our managers show up for those that they lead. And they'd be spending a lot less time just surviving all of these new changes and actually thriving in their new space because they were equipped with the right expectations.
Misconceptions and Bureaucracy in Management
00:02:36
Speaker
And so we identified nine in my own reflection and then just looking at some of the conversations.
00:02:43
Speaker
So we talked about how the job description rarely matches the reality of the role that you're taking on, that there is just an abundance of bureaucracy and organizational politics that you're going to have to navigate. And you're rarely equipped on how do you do that. And one of the things that comes up a lot is you're not doing the work that you liked best anymore. This work is completely different work or
00:03:09
Speaker
work on top of that work. So then that work becomes frustrating because it's extra, feels extra on top of the work that you're already doing.
00:03:18
Speaker
We've talked about this, we'll talk about it again, but the amount of motions that you're going to encounter, yours and others, is just a huge expectation that we don't set. You won't like everybody, and they're not gonna like you, so how do you function successfully in that environment? It makes me so uncomfortable. Right? I hate that one.
00:03:40
Speaker
Managing up, we've heard that saying, but the fact that there are going to be times you have to manage your own boss to get things moving, to get what you need to get done. You might be set up to fail in some ways before you even start because of antiquated paradigms that exist in the business space. That's just reality. You're probably not getting paid enough, especially if you fall into that category of
00:04:06
Speaker
and add on. This is something you're going to do on top of your job, not as your job, which is a soapbox we will get on later. And then you're going to be overwhelmed all the time. That's pretty much a fact. I haven't encountered many people, managers who aren't. It's just kind of the nature of dealing with all the challenges, the fires you're fighting, the emotions you're dealing with, and all the pieces that are a part of managing others. So those were the themes that came out, and people really seemed to resonate
00:04:36
Speaker
with them. And I mean, I'd ask you, do you feel like some of these resonated with you as you jumped into that people manager journey? Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, I think we're gonna, we're gonna like unpack some kind of one by one here, but the, as you were going through that, the thought that came to my mind was, why don't you talk about these things?
The Role of Transparency in Management
00:05:00
Speaker
And like, why,
00:05:02
Speaker
And it's like, I don't think it's a secret that these things exist, but we aren't explicit about them. And so is it kind of our natural tendency in kind of today's corporate society to avoid hard conversations or to not be explicit about setting expectations? Because I do think that that's fairly common.
00:05:26
Speaker
But also, why else might we avoid talking about this or setting really realistic expectations for managers? And I think part of it is that we don't want to scare people away and we need them. Yeah, we need people to take these jobs. And I have a couple of really specific, like, just memories in the past of where I've been talked into taking a job and told, like, just very unreasonable expectations set for me about what it was going to be.
00:05:54
Speaker
because they needed someone to take it. I don't know, why do you think that these things are so infrequently talked about and we're not honest about them? I mean, the thing that sticks out to me is I think sometimes we're moving so fast.
00:06:12
Speaker
especially in the corporate world, that we're not taking time to foreshadow the decisions that we're making in these hiring roles and how important they are and the ripple effects that they're going to have going forward. But I think the nail on the head for me, as you said, we're really uncomfortable having difficult conversations. And I think that's in most people's personal and professional lives.
00:06:35
Speaker
And I found that the more transparent you are, the easier those tough conversations become. But it's almost like we're waiting for permission, but from who in the organization to start to show up in a way that opens the door to have hard conversations in a safe way. And I think that just goes to how do we and why management excellence exists, right? How do we
00:07:02
Speaker
start from the first time you step into that people manager role so that you can not only have those conversations, but also start to foster an environment where those people that you're growing as a leader, the next leader are comfortable having those conversations because they've seen it. They've been in that environment and now that is comfort for them. And so I think it's
00:07:22
Speaker
a mix of things, but I think the hard conversations is just something we really like to avoid in the corporate space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, what's weird is that, I mean, I avoided like, you know, 80% of my career probably avoided hard conversations before I was like, okay, I'm going to need to figure out how to do this and get better at it. Yeah.
00:07:45
Speaker
Just in my experience, being really straight up about this stuff, I have yet to have an experience where being calm and honest and setting realistic expectations blew up in my face. And yet, I have so free, like with every client I've worked with, the client I'm working on now, like with so many teams and people that I've worked with, they're afraid to be really honest and just call it what it is. And I just have no evidence that
00:08:14
Speaker
that even in fairly dysfunctional environments, that going about that in a comature way blows up. Now, I'm sure that that has happened and you have to be conscientious, but I don't... I don't know. I think we're afraid for nothing. Yeah, and I think sometimes we get in our own way, because I do that too. I build up the what if or what if they respond in this way, and then it gets so far that it's like, oh, it's not worth having a conversation anymore.
00:08:42
Speaker
and that becomes challenging, but there are environments, right? And we've been in them, we've seen them experience somewhere. It's not always safe to bring it up to someone else, but I think that's such a blessing in being a people manager as you get to at least have a micro piece of control over creating that safe space for your team. Yeah, and I think that's something that really draws me to the role is, well, there may be times or are times where it doesn't feel safe to go up and we can always talk about that.
00:09:11
Speaker
we can still work on ourselves to create the safe space for those under us. That leads into a lot of conversations about things we've experienced about getting frustrated because you don't have that space, but it still is such a blessing for those who report to you if you can show up. Yeah, you're holding it for others. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Well, why don't we get into a few of these?
The Disconnect in Managerial Job Descriptions
00:09:32
Speaker
We're going to do a few of these in this episode and actually cover a few in the next episode because there's so much good stuff here.
00:09:38
Speaker
The first one that you shared is the job description rarely matches the reality. Have you gotten into that situation where they were like, hey, here's your manager, your cool new manager job, and then you get into it and you're like, what the heck?
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like almost probably every person I talk to, I mean, I would love to hear from someone who has the opposite story because I think that would just be fascinating. But we often get such a simple or understated job description that says things about like you're going to step into a role where you prioritize the workload on your team and delegate responsibilities and
00:10:14
Speaker
you know, see projects through to completion and be a liaison between your manager and your team or liaison between the tech team.
00:10:23
Speaker
and the product team or whatever's going on and you get these descriptions and it's like, well, that all sounds fine, but nobody in there is talking about, you're going to navigate extraordinarily extreme and complex organizational politics so that your team can get the work needed to be done done and those type of things. I think my first, well, we talked about my first intro to management was when the manager quit and they're like, you're responsible, step up.
00:10:51
Speaker
in the food service industry. So that was one, but in the corporate space, I mean, when I look back on that now,
00:10:58
Speaker
I think I said, I like helping lead others and it kind of was like, great, you can do that now because we have a need. And I think the job description came months later. Like I don't, I don't even recall truly having a conversation about what is that going to mean? And while there was some, you know, excitement in that over time, that becomes really frustrating because you don't know what space you're playing in. You can fall into, you know, burnout frustration.
00:11:28
Speaker
and confusion and everything becomes your responsibility if you don't manage your expectations or you aren't able to perform because you don't know what you're supposed to be performing to. What about you when you first became a people manager? How was it set for you of what you were supposed to do?
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to think if there's been a time when it was like completely different, but something you just said really resonated up that there, I think a lot of times we really highlight and praise people who can function in ambiguity. I just like cannot tell you the number of times I've talked to people to talk to leaders and that this is in every industry. Like you need people who can function with ambiguity and function with ambiguity. And they're right because the world is changing quickly.
00:12:17
Speaker
And there's always going to be a degree of ambiguity. And depending on your role and depending on how senior you are in the organization, your tolerance for ambiguity does maybe need to flex depending on the type of job you have. However, I think a lot of times we say that to get away with not providing clarity that we could provide if we took the freaking time to do it. And so a lot of times, sometimes I just want to be like, you know what? I think that's bullshit, actually.
00:12:47
Speaker
Yes, I'm someone who I think I can tolerate ambiguity pretty well, but I don't think this ambiguity is needed nearly as often as we think. As we think, yeah, or as we speak. As it is, as we make it. Like that foreshadowing, right? I haven't had the time to think about what role I truly need you to fill or what success looks like.
00:13:09
Speaker
how much more I'm going to pay you if you succeed at this level versus this level or versus this level. So the ambiguity is actually benefiting me, the person putting you in this role because I'm leaving things ambiguous on both sides too. And I need you to be able to succeed in that. That's such a great, such a great call out and
00:13:30
Speaker
It is. It doesn't really think of it until you said it. And then I was like, wait a minute. I'm having an insight. You know, I think some of this depends. So there have been times. OK.
00:13:42
Speaker
There have been times when I've worked for organizations that have more mature job leveling and job family and practices and paths. And that generally I do think kind of helps. But I think what we're getting at here is that almost no one really actually understands what anyone else does.
00:14:07
Speaker
organization, even the people who are hiring for that role sometimes, unless they have done it themselves and they're hiring their replacement. And even if they've done that, we often still talk about this very corporate-y version of, you're going to do this and this and this, right? And to a degree, right, I think that there's a lot of science around job descriptions and how they're written for the companies who have some maturity around that.
00:14:33
Speaker
But I think what's helped me most is when someone has said, someone who knows the role well has said, listen, here is what's tough about this role. Here are some of the challenging political dynamics around it.
00:14:51
Speaker
Here's the, you know, the team members who can just like totally cruise on their own. Here are the team members that are tougher to manage. And, you know, like, again, I have not turned down a job because of that. If anything, I've been very grateful to be going in eyes wide open. And so I think for me, this is more about are we, again, it's about setting realistic expectations.
00:15:19
Speaker
However, I will say coming back to the description, I think a lot of people, I see a lot of managers coming into roles where like this is the role and then they get within six months they've had four or five more roles piled onto that.
00:15:37
Speaker
That's just something that I don't know what the answer to that is. It's just something that I've observed a lot, especially in the last few years. I don't know if that's something that you've seen too, but that's the work. The work not equating the description is it might more closer when you start, but then one job becomes two, becomes three, becomes four, becomes five.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah. And I think no one ever equipped me at least with questions I could ask until maybe 12 years into this career thing and people management thing. A mentor goes, well, you took on this new job role and you're saying you're, you know, tired and you're stressed and you're burnt out and all these things. What
00:16:21
Speaker
Did you agree to let go from your plate when you signed up for this new role? It's like a slap in the face to be like, oh, I'm allowed to ask that question. I never asked. I just assumed more responsibility, more money, more exhaustion, never thinking like,
00:16:39
Speaker
Of course, there's going to be pieces of- More money, more problems. Exactly. Of course, there's going to be delegation pieces and how does this work, how you manage to work with your team. But there is a reality at some point. There's a tipping point of the role, the expectation, the reality is exceeding, to your point, the job description and what we agreed to hear and really learning to ask the right type of questions and talk about performance expectation and growth expectations and all of that.
00:17:09
Speaker
before saying yes. And I think it's fair to understand the answers might not be there, but you've set, you've opened the door that you're going to ask the questions and you're going to have the conversation. And this is a mutual, you know, relationship here between the company and the employee. And if I, you know, meet and exceed your expectations, what does that look like? And that, I think you made that point. That's easier when you're in an organization that has more mature
00:17:35
Speaker
job descriptions, job roles, and paths. But it also, I think, can be exciting in organizations that don't if there's comfort with navigating those type of conversations and talking about what do you expect of me today. And if those expectations seem to have drastically swung the other way, is the door open for us to come back and talk some more about this?
00:17:56
Speaker
And nobody really ever explained that till a lot further. And that's something I wish I really understood and prepped and even just had the tools in my toolkit when I became a people manager to know how to even think about those type of conversations and the job description and my expectations versus the company's.
00:18:16
Speaker
Totally, totally. Something that you just said, and this is probably temperament and like, we're all wired differently. So for some people, they probably naturally do this more than others. Someone recently reflected back to me. They said, Susie, if something's exciting to you, it doesn't even occur to you to say no. And I was like, that is true. Damn it. And this person is like such an insightful person. But I think
00:18:44
Speaker
What you just said was at least buy yourself some time before you commit to anything. Give yourself some space to be able to really evaluate it and take a little bit of the negotiation power to say like, I need to think about this. I need to think about what that would mean for my capacity and be able to, what I'd be able to take on and what I'd need to be able to let go of. And like what you said is you're establishing yourself as an equal party in the discussion when you do that.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yes, yes. And yeah, when you're excited or just want to grow, sometimes you like I actually do have a say.
The Dilemma of Managerial Roles and Responsibilities
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah, I know sometimes like totally we can overcomplicate that because we need to make a living and there's expectations of the business but
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah, buy yourself some time and think about what is this thing. I think we underestimate how much maybe power we can have for sure. Yes. So then the next one, which I think is kind of tied to this, is you won't do the work you like best anymore. I have such a great, and you know my background, but I got to start in corporate training.
00:19:47
Speaker
I say that sounding exciting and some people corporate training might be like, why are you so excited about that? This month I got to travel the world every week, Monday through Thursday, get on a plane to a new destination in my 20s, get to be face to face with clients every single week leading really fun and engaging activities.
00:20:07
Speaker
This may sound horrible to some people, but doing karaoke every Wednesday night and leading these really high energy activities with drinks flowing. And it was really fun, really, really, really fun. And I love that role. It was the best, I think, first introduction into the business world. I got to travel around with former executives of Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies and learn from the best of the best and see into organizations
00:20:35
Speaker
just a hundred industries. It was so cool. So much exposure. I got to do it sometimes, but mostly I stayed back and I watched my team go to Australia, go to Brazil, go across the world and do these trainings. And that is a really big shift. And while I still found a lot of joy, there are times where it's like,
00:21:00
Speaker
I feel like I'm taking on a lot more responsibility when I could still be doing that. Yeah, your world almost became smaller and you're like, what the heck? What am I doing? So I think that's an example of just how sometimes the opportunity, and while I'm glad I did it, sometimes that top slowing down and thinking about it, that pause too is, why do I want to make this leap? And do I feel I can be a really great,
00:21:28
Speaker
leader to somebody else right now, or am I better serving myself and the company and the individual contributor role? What are the pros and cons of taking it on? And is it about title? Is it about pay? What is it about? And I think when we talk about you might be set up to fail, sometimes it's because the organization and the corporate dynamic is to make more money, lead people. That is a really common path, and sometimes
00:21:57
Speaker
That's not as enjoyable as the individual contributor work, but it's something that you have to weigh. I'd be interested because you had a similar intro to the business world, but not the exact path. What do you think? Totally. I don't love karaoke, so that part I was not.
00:22:26
Speaker
So when I think about the times that I've let go of individual contributor work, or you said something earlier kind of in the intro, is that when they're like, oh yeah, well you'll still do your individual contributor work and you'll manage people.
00:22:43
Speaker
That is such a fallacy. Or, I mean, yes, you'll do that. But in my experience, at least, and I think for most people, your team always takes priority. And that's like how it should be, I think. But we design these roles so that something has to get like the shaft. And so your individual contributor work that like maybe really energizes you or fills you up kind of ends up taking the backseat.
00:23:09
Speaker
Or it's that's the work that you let go of and then someone else on your team is doing the work that you really like And you're like are you helped in that and now you have to like let it go? Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I would say that I I tend to be a builder not a maintainer so I I have a lot of my career has been building things and handing that over to other people to take on and
00:23:32
Speaker
That I'm totally cool with, because to be honest, that's kind of how I'm wearing. It's where you're in your flow. Yeah, that's what I'm in my flow. But I think there have been times when I'm promoted into managing a team and the things that I've had to let go of, or the things where I'm not getting to do the work anymore, usually it's some sort of creative aspect of my role.
00:23:54
Speaker
So, and it's come in all different forms, right? Whether it was when I was on a sales team and I was creating proposals or I was on a product team and I was creating actual products. Just the part where I get to be the one to like,
00:24:10
Speaker
get in there and like really like figure out the problem and build it from scratch. So whatever flavor that takes on it's usually that the work becomes more administrative and less creative and that is that's usually hard for me. I also always grieve the letting go of direct control of the quality of the work.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yeah, I align with you on that one. I get myself in a lot of trouble, especially in the role I think of today, needing to hold on to what is this final, what is the quality. But I think you've just made a point which I think is a challenge for a good chunk of people managers is the next one, which is you might find your work a bit boring and a bit bureaucratic.
00:25:07
Speaker
I think this is one of the hardest parts. Like I would rather, you know, when we talk about you might not like people, they might not like you or having difficult, I'd rather do that all day than deal with some of just like the paperwork or the reporting or just the nuances of
00:25:24
Speaker
you know, covering your ass for the corporate world, like any diaphragm has an issue in the documentation or the corrective action conversations. And oh my God, do I hate pips or things like that. So that is soul sucking. And I think it's almost unavoidable in a people manager role. It is just
00:25:48
Speaker
Whoo, that's one. I think when we talk about that, I think I have a slide or a graphic somewhere where I think I thought of like 15, 20, 25 different organizational policies to just basic kind of one-on-one intro to management. You should know about these if you're stepping into this role because it's gonna come up.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, because it's so true because as a manager, the metaphor that just came to mind is you're almost like a concierge to your employees for the rest of the business. You need to know when to be able to direct them to their HR business partner or when to be able to direct them here.
00:26:29
Speaker
kind of what the menu of benefits is available so that if they need something you can say like okay hey so don't forget we have this and so you do need to be really well versed in the policies of the company you also need to be well versed in all of the performance management and like there's a lot to your point um and for someone like me who is um
00:26:49
Speaker
that my brain does not work well with those types of details. I mean, there's nothing like snoozefest and like I will just black out. That's tough for me. I usually do well if I have a buddy who can help me with some of that stuff organized, but you're right. There's an administrative responsibility that almost always comes with this that
00:27:14
Speaker
unless you like stuff like that, which some people do, but some people do for me. I mean, I agree. And I see if I have it readily available, but I don't think I do. But I mean, even like when we talk about the realities of things that you're going to face, like you're going to face the reality that somebody who reports to you is likely going to lose a loved one. And I like it's such an example of this is like knowing your organization's agreement policy and
00:27:44
Speaker
I have such a frustration with bereavement policies because so many of them are so specific and they say like if you are immediate family member and then they define immediate family member as maybe a parent or a child, then you may take bereavement and get one week paid or one week unpaid.
00:28:03
Speaker
And then so many drop off after that. And it, to me, I get so, and I've struggled and I fought for people on my team before in this and have won many times about your title to someone in your family does not dictate your relationship or your emotional connection to that person or the gravity of the loss that you've experienced. And you have to navigate that as a people manager and that shit sucks. And like, I will,
00:28:31
Speaker
I mean, this is not a legal or corporate advice podcast, but I will always advocate to ask for forgiveness and, or, you know, and grant them permission to take the time they need. Yeah. So I mean, that's why you have to know these policies because you, there are legal consequences. There are real realities to what you can do. And so I always advise and people step into that role is it's boring and it's overwhelming, but
00:28:58
Speaker
It's just start with that foundation because it's going to impact you at some point, and it's better to understand what they are early and then trying to scramble and figure it out later. Totally. I've been in the same place when I tend to also just be like, you know what? We're going to do what you need because this is ... But to your point, we also can't set people up to be in a position where then they're
00:29:25
Speaker
in trouble, potentially be in trouble, or I could be in trouble, right, for sure. Another example of this is that, so my partner Matt became, he moved from an individual contributor role to a manager role in a telecom company that he works for, like six months ago. And I kid you not, the last six months, the thing that has probably taken me most of his energy has been navigating the bureaucratic process and bullshit to get his team paid enough money so that they'll stay.
00:29:55
Speaker
And to be clear, this is not like trying to get them paid beyond what would be equitable at the company. This was within the paid ranges for the job bands that they were in. He was just trying to get them a meaningful enough increase that they felt valued enough to stay because he had some real attrition risks.
00:30:15
Speaker
I think he did an amazing job advocating. He went hard for these team members that he was bringing on. But it took so much of his energy just to navigate the process. And I don't think that when he was like, no one was like, OK, you're going to take on this manager role. It's a great next step for your career. Was he like, I'm going to spend the next six months arguing with the compensation team?
00:30:43
Speaker
You know, yeah, or having a conversation just to finally be told to go to the other person and then that person tells you to go to this person and whose decision is it really? I'm like getting used to that volleyball game that you're playing for that, but I mean good hand because
00:30:59
Speaker
so many managers just don't even consider compensation or what that means because of these challenges sometimes too, or you know, a whole plethora of reasons. But I, yeah, that is a great example of he he is unhappy with how much he gets paid.
00:31:19
Speaker
Or he doesn't think that his company pays enough. But he's going to do everything he can with the people he has control over. Or that he can influence. And there are some real bounds. And he struggled. And like I said, he fought. But I thought, yeah, I really admire him for that. Because I think it can be easy to become bitter, to be like, well, if I'm not getting paid enough, then screw that. You shouldn't mean it. You're not getting paid enough either. Yeah.
00:31:49
Speaker
And so I really admire when people are like, what you talked about before, just because maybe the kind of broader culture of the company is that way does not necessarily mean that you can't create your microcosm, your kind of micro culture for your own team. So that's life changing. And I think that's just such another example of
00:32:09
Speaker
If you're going to manage, you have to mean it because we've talked about this. You have a bigger impact on the mental and emotional well-being of your people and research shows this than even their spouses do. I mean, people managers make. That's terrifying. It's a huge responsibility. We need to act that way. And I think with pay, I think it's such a good example of just how you can show advocacy for your people and to say like,
00:32:38
Speaker
And especially if you can address it before they come to you, because I am a fundamental believer, if your person has to come to you about pay, it's too late already. They're pissed off. I mean, unless it's like a natural part of your conversation and you have created a space where you can talk about that. But I think in the scenarios where you haven't done that,
00:32:57
Speaker
in somebody's coming and then they're coming again. If that's the pattern you're in, they're already like, I'm not getting paid enough. I'm going to start looking somewhere else. This isn't working. This isn't fair. This isn't what I deserve. Now you're ruminating and the resentments building. So I think it's a space where I am going to advocate for you. And then I hope, you know, in that space too, that radical transparency of
00:33:19
Speaker
This is what advocacy looks like. I have a lot of poops I have to jump through because of the dynamics. I am jumping through them for you, but this is how long it might take. Yeah, totally, totally. Well, then I think that also might have created for him a couple of people on that compensation team who are not his biggest fans right now. I think it's really professional and polite about it, right? But he
Navigating Relationships and Team Dynamics
00:33:45
Speaker
pushed.
00:33:45
Speaker
And so the the last thing we're gonna talk about in this episode is you won't like everyone and everyone won't like you I feel like we're both would you say you identify as like a recovering people pleaser?
00:34:01
Speaker
I don't know if I'm recovering. I should recover. I am just like a hardcore people pleaser. You want me to jump and go, hi. Like, you didn't even do this for your grade. I'll do it two days earlier than you need it. Absolutely. Like, it's a problem. And I mean, that's not good in a legal manager space either, and why the topic of boundaries is so important to me. And that comes into play here, I think, a lot. Like, I'm trying to just think back. I don't think I've had an abundance of people
00:34:30
Speaker
that I've struggled with. I think for the most part, when you show up and want to do a good job and are surrounded by people who want to do a good job, you can foster a space where you're going to be able to work together. But I mean, you are going to encounter people
00:34:47
Speaker
who you do not like and you still have to advocate for them. Like I want people to hear that loud and clear because I think that's a huge issue is like, I don't like you and I'm above you. So I don't have to fight for you. And that is complete bullshit. You, that is your responsibility. No matter your feelings about this person. And I think that's something that nobody teaches you how to do in the topic of emotional regulation and emotional maturity.
00:35:15
Speaker
emotional intelligence, all of that is so big. I mean, I can only personally think of one person where it was an active fight for me in my head to make sure I showed up appropriately. And why? So I was really thinking about this because I also couldn't think of someone that I didn't like working with who there also wasn't a reason that I was like, this person is concerning to work with in some way because I'm
00:35:43
Speaker
Because I'm a people pleaser, I pretty much like everyone. But there are people I enjoy working with less. And there are definitely people who I think I have had to go and push and maybe become not their favorite person. But I think generally we like people that often overlaps with trusting them.
00:36:06
Speaker
Yeah. Sometimes. Right. So I'm really curious, this example that you have of, of why, why, why didn't you like this person and kind of how did you navigate that? Yeah, I think for me, I'm going to, and similar to what you said, I'm a people pleaser, you're a people pleaser. I'm also going to, you know, try every way, you know,
00:36:28
Speaker
to support someone or to help them achieve what they need to achieve or do what they need to do. And this person that I'm thinking of, you know, really showed up with just a, I don't give a shit attitude. Like I, I don't really want to be here, but also had high demands of I want more money. I want this title. I want to grow tomorrow. And I think sometimes,
00:36:56
Speaker
It's really hard for me to work with people who don't want to put in or just have the bad attitude of like, I don't care and I expect this without having to deuce the things to get there. Yeah. I feel like that's, that would kind of universal. That person sounds like real pain in the ass. Pain in the ass. They were pain in the ass. And I'm sure a lot of people have that. Like this is a job for me. I'm here. I'm showing up. I've hit the bare minimum.
00:37:25
Speaker
Yeah. And, and that's, but also, but also give me more money, but also give me more money. And I think it's such a balance of like, what is your attitude around it? Cause everybody can't be an overachiever and everybody can't be a high performer and go to the, like companies have to have a mix of both of people who just want to show up and do their job and do it good and, and go home. That has to be in place. We wouldn't function. You need the bedrock. Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:51
Speaker
Um, but it's something about just that, that expectation and that ego and that demand and that like, almost like we've used this word in the past, like that malicious compliance and that just that component of, Oh, just that ego. I don't know. Like I can, I don't even know how to describe it. And so it does that to me inside where I get a little flustered of like, Oh, how do I navigate? Like I'm, I'm flustered with this. Like I want you to see my way. And I think that's where you're like, actually the
00:38:16
Speaker
bureaucracy kind of becomes your friend because you can start to put in like, okay, here are the things that have to be in place to get there. And here's the metrics we can, you know, black and white put in front. Did you do it or did you not? And so I think that is like, as much as I hate the bureaucracy, sometimes where it can help me navigate those situations where it's, I don't, I don't actively feel like I like you super much, but I think it's good that I can only really think of one example. Um,
00:38:42
Speaker
But I think that is probably, as that occurs, what I would do again is lean on what is in place, structure, how are we gonna get there and let's measure it because otherwise it just becomes too personal. Totally, totally. I think most people would not like that person from what you described. I think a lot of people work with that person sometimes, honestly. I'll work once I get this title or once I get this amount of money type of energy.
00:39:12
Speaker
I don't know, what do you think? What type of situations have you? I mean, like, yeah, yeah. I think for you, I think how, like what you're saying is there's a difference between like, I don't vibe with this person. We don't get a lot. Like we do not get, we don't get that well. We don't get, we just don't work that well together, but we figure it out and we muddle through. Yeah. That's true versus Ashley's issue.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's yeah, that person sounds kind of like a like a you had to manage that problem. But what you said was like, also, you still had to make that conscious choice of how do you show up as the manager? And like, you still don't like that person. You know, it doesn't sound like they liked anything. You know, they didn't have having to get like, Oh, but we can always talk about that story another day. So I think you're right, it is more of a performance issue than an actual
00:40:09
Speaker
It's like in the end of the day, the person I think was fine. So I think I struggle because like to the point you made is there's not a lot of people I don't like or can't find common ground with. So it's an interesting point when you think about people management because I'd wonder, I mean if there are a lot, maybe there should be managing people I guess is maybe.
00:40:32
Speaker
I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think there are people who really annoy me is probably like for me, there are. OK, so on my teams, when I think back there, there I can't really think of anyone that I didn't that I wasn't able to say, you know, I like and I care about this person. But there are definitely some people that I was like, yeah, like these.
00:41:01
Speaker
There were sometimes, something that I learned along the way is that when I had big style differences with people on my teams, that often first showed up for me as feeling like I don't like this person or they annoy me or it's difficult for me to work with this person. If they don't operate at the same pace or if they approach problems differently. And so I had to work really hard to sense that and say, okay,
00:41:26
Speaker
I am so annoyed with working with this person. But it probably means that we're just different. And it's probably a good thing. Yeah, you know, and I need to like value that and like, calm a shit down and great perspective value the difference. There have been people in my career, I genuinely don't like it. Other than
00:41:48
Speaker
people, you know, yeah, that it's been hard for you to manage. Usually they've been people, peers or other people that I need to go work with. So I think that's also a big part of the management though, because part of the role, and I think a very important part of the role is you have to go and you have to provide the air cover. And I've been in several, several situations where I've kind of had like a
00:42:13
Speaker
like a turnaround situation where I've taken over a team that's been in that tough spot. Maybe they weren't performing well, or they had someone leave suddenly or whatever the condition was, but they just needed some like, it was kind of an urgent thing. Yeah. I've never taken over a team that wasn't doing well, that also didn't feel like they were getting shit on by other people on the, in the organization. Such a great differentiation. Yeah. Your team versus the external. Yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah. And so the, in that situation, my role has always been to say, okay, let me figure out who is being unreasonable towards my team. And now I need to go and get them to be more reasonable and set some expectations and have some tough conversations. There have been some of those people who I genuinely don't like because there are some people who are jerks, you know, and, and I agree. Yeah.
00:43:07
Speaker
and just having to
00:43:11
Speaker
You know, I'm pretty non-confrontational by nature. I do not like that stuff. But for, it's also easier once I am able to channel some mama bear energy. That's a lot easier for me than just doing it for myself. Yes. Ditto. And yeah, yeah. So I'd say the people that I don't like have usually in my career, mostly been people who were taking advantage of my team, not respecting my team's work.
00:43:40
Speaker
taking no time to understand the impact that they were having on me or my team, mostly my team, and people who just were not conscientious. Like I say that's like, that's when we're talking about it's from a manager perspective. You will have, you will have to actually go actively deal with those people versus kind of just like
00:44:03
Speaker
be in their orbit. And that's the, that's the big difference, I think from like, talking about the stuff we don't talk about is like, you actually don't get to just be like, yeah, that guy over there is a real asshole. Yeah. Or that or that or that gal, you know, I don't want to be gendered. Because there's some, because there's some gals out there being real assholes, too. There's a lot of people being real assholes. As a manager, it's not your job to go actively engage with that asshole and stop. Yeah.
00:44:32
Speaker
and say, hey, this is not, we need to talk about how our teams are working together or how you're working with my team. That's not fun. And we don't talk really about that. No, and that's such a great point too. And when you said like, you know, when I have stepped into managed teams, I have felt that they are my team now. They are my response. Like I will protect you, like that momma bear energy. And I think that has really helped.
00:45:02
Speaker
me if there are style differences or challenges that I have to feel safe in my own skin to have those conversations and you know I've always been extraordinarily comfortable and I don't really know where this came from because nobody taught it to me of having really vulnerable open and transparent conversations with my team because I think I felt that I had the permission and the role that I was in to be able to do that
00:45:29
Speaker
And I think that becomes challenging when I've stepped outside of my team. It is easier when I am going to bat for them, but when it is just me peer to peer, that is more difficult than I have encountered, yeah, people who are a lot more difficult to work with. Or sometimes in that managing up space, that can be a lot more difficult because that permission and that safety feels like it goes away sometimes. And I think those challenges are tough to navigate sometimes.
00:45:58
Speaker
but also what we didn't talk about is some people aren't going to like you. They don't want you to be their boss. They do not sign up for this. Everyone likes me. You are very likable. Me on the other hand. I refuse. Yes, there are people who don't like me and I know this is to be true.
00:46:22
Speaker
It's tough. And again, I can't think of an extreme amount of examples. And I think even one example is maybe not somebody who didn't like me as a person, but was really upset about the fact that I was managing the team. You know, we had started in this similar timeframe, I mean, months apart and how the same rules. Yeah, going from peers to manager. Tough, tough one. And that was met with like,
00:46:51
Speaker
brute force, active resistance. Like I am going to not accept this. And I think that's where a lot of, and that was in my first transition, you know, into that people manager space in my first corporate job. And I think that is probably where my energy around being vulnerable or radical transparency really came to light because I saw the value in it. And I was able to have really open conversation to say like, I'm really aware of the drastic shift that's happening here.
00:47:21
Speaker
in the way we work together last week and the way we're working together this week and like being able to start early. That's a healthy way to deal with that. Thank you. I know sometimes I do okay. And that, but that works and it helps like a lot of people
00:47:39
Speaker
And I fall into this space when I reported to someone not knowing how to start that conversation, but I found that the fact that I started it allowed so much to come up and created this space for it and name it to tame it. Yeah. So not everybody's going to like you either or be thrilled with your role. That's a reality, but you still have to move forward. And I would love to do a whole episode on that too is how do you do that in that space because
00:48:06
Speaker
There's so many things you can try and then there are so many things that you can just say like, okay, well, we tried these hundred things and they didn't work and here's, here's how we're moving forward. Could you do a report to me?
00:48:15
Speaker
See, I can be radically transparent, vulnerable, and kind, but also there are times where you can be like, it's time to move on. I love it. I love it. Yes. I too have navigated the peer to the peer to manager transition. Sometimes it was very smooth and positive and sometimes extremely awkwardly and painfully. And I think that would be a great topic actually. Yeah.
00:48:44
Speaker
I also think that the times when people haven't liked me, you know, I think that there's, you know, I know that I have a pretty driving style and something that
00:49:03
Speaker
would be a great topic is like, and that you talk about I know they post a lot is like, it's the responsibility of the manager to adapt to the to the team, not the team to the manager. Yeah. And so I think there have been times when it's just such a balancing act, right? Because I do think the times when I probably don't have fans is when I
00:49:29
Speaker
one either like it has to be done that we have to get some shit done and like it is time to cut the shit we've got to go and like like sometimes it's okay for to just be like you know what I'm just gonna take it for the team and we're gonna like someone has to say it and go for it and like maybe it's kind of an urgent situation um but I think also you know my style is my style and not everyone's gonna dig that but I also know
00:50:00
Speaker
that for the most part, when I am being myself, I'm the best manager I can be. And I, I would just encourage everyone to think about that. I guess I've, I've seen that over and over again is that when people are trying to be light, they are generally not effective when they are just being, when they are being themselves now being themselves in like a,
00:50:28
Speaker
a self-aware, reflective way, not just like, this is fucking me and you can take it, you know? Like letting yourself be who you are, you know? I'm goofy, I like to joke around, and some people I think they don't...
00:50:44
Speaker
They were like, this is not my thing. You know, just letting that be okay. Because I really over the years have tried a lot of different trying to be a lot of different people. Yeah. And I just can only do you learned. Yeah, yeah, I can only do me and I've learned that I get actually the best results when I am doing that. And people see through enough in authenticity so quickly. And when I say like, it's your job to adapt to the style and your team,
00:51:13
Speaker
and give example of what I mean by that because I too am who I am. I'm a little, you know, goofier as are you and like to have the social interaction and the small talk and things like that. But I'm also extraordinarily detail oriented when projects need to get done and deadline specific. And also I'm thinking, you know, what is the impact to this if we do this and then this and the ripples and all of that. And I remember having someone on my team who was so,
00:51:43
Speaker
Like he was so driven by you being excited by his idea and he would constantly be frustrated with me. I was like, why are you so frustrated? Like what is going on? It's like every time I have an idea, you kill it. And I'm like, I kill your idea. I don't mean to do that. Like tell me more and learning that.
00:52:05
Speaker
I immediately went into, I hear your idea and because I hear it, I'm processing what would it look like to put this into play. And that came out as a lot of questions and a lot of details and a lot of just kind of moving into him. That was very much a buzzkill in what he wanted.
00:52:23
Speaker
was just a moment to acknowledge and be excited about the idea. So I had to learn that, okay, this is a new idea that has been put forward.
00:52:36
Speaker
let me take some time and then we'll come back to the details that are next one on one or if we want to implement or if we want to talk about this, but really just giving him that energy that he was looking for from being excited too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great example of like, you can still do that. That's still you being who you are and adapting your style and how you approach that to align with what that employee needs. That's an awesome example. Awesome example.
00:53:05
Speaker
OK, I think that's what we wanted to cover this time. Yeah, there's a lot of shit no one talks about. There's a lot. There's a lot. And there's only half of it. Awesome. All right, well, until next time. Thanks, everyone. Thanks. Thanks, Zeus.