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Episode 4: The Sh*t No One Talks About - Part 2
59 Plays1 year ago
Courtney and Susie continue to unpack aspects of management no one talks about. They discuss the loneliness of management, particularly when you're shielding your team from tough stuff. Up next is the tricky art of managing your boss and advocating for yourself. The duo shares insights on negotiating salaries and why everyone should. They wrap up with a look at the ever-present overwhelm in management roles and how this can play out in real life scenarios.
- 0:53: The loneliness of people management
- 4:24: You will have to manage your own boss
- 13:47: Leadership and management are not mutually exclusive
- 18:12: You might be set up to fail before you begin
- 24:11: You probably aren’t getting paid enough
- 30:35: You will be overwhelmed the majority of the time
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Trending Topics
00:00:16
Speaker
Okay. We are back again with the Manage with Meaning podcast. Last time, Cordy, we started talking about the shit no one talks about. And this week we were going to continue with a few more of the things that are a part of the posts that you've gotten a ton of engagement on, on your platforms.
00:00:34
Speaker
So I'm curious, before we dive into kind of the remaining topics, what are the like when people engage with this topic or like are commenting or things like this, like what what kind of reactions do you get?
Is Transitioning to Management Lonely?
00:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of just agreement or, oh gosh, I struggled with this. It's really great to hear that I'm not alone. I did see a really big pattern that I don't have in any of these topics that It kind of surprised me, but then as I reflected on it, it didn't. And a lot of comments, people saying, no one told me how lonely this would be. And I didn't put that in there. And I don't think that was my overall experience, but now I can see as I reflect on just certain times and different companies and different structures that.
00:01:22
Speaker
that is a really valid point that it can be a lonely transition, especially if you're going in at first from that peer to manager transition that can be really lonely. So I've seen that thing come up quite a bit too.
Balancing Authenticity and Professionalism
00:01:36
Speaker
That really resonates with me. I think through a lot of times when I've been managing, because there's some stuff you kind of have to shield your team from. You can't ah necessarily be as transparent with them about everything, you have to maintain some boundaries about what you share with them. I think there's something to being authentic and vulnerable with them, but you also have to maintain a level of professionalism of what you put on them. And I've, I've always found that very lonely as well, especially if I didn't have a good peer group that I was connected with at my company yeah or a boss that I had regular communication with. Like if I didn't have my own good boss, right? So I think a lot of that is alleviated when you have someone.
00:02:22
Speaker
yeah to process or work through that stuff with, but there have been times when I haven't and that's been
The Importance of Support Systems
00:02:29
Speaker
tough. I mean, hard yeah, I had probably a five year period where it was the loneliest I'd ever been, I think in my career because I felt like I was constantly protecting, like being the barrier, building the storm shielding and it was so lonely. And yeah, that that resonates a lot with me.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's like an interesting one to dig into one day or dive into. I like what people can do about this stuff. It's important to talk about the stuff that no one talks about. There's also a lot that you can do about this. And so part of it talking about it is not just to freak people out or be like, well, really gonna suck, you know, but more to say, let's just be honest about it so that we can plan for what we do.
00:03:14
Speaker
It just makes me laugh because it makes me think about my five-year-old prepping my one-year-old for his shots and going, you're going to cry. That's going to suck. So sucks for you. And that was his prep talk. And it's like, no, there're not there are solutions. that Yes. You're making such a good point. But with the loneliness thing, I think something that has helped is um always having, Courtney, you were this person for me for a long time, right? Even though we were in different parts of the organization, when we were at the same company, being able to just commiserate sometimes. Sometimes you just need that person to be able to vent to you who has enough context of what you're talking about yeah to get it, right? Because I can vent to my partner and he kind of gets it, but he's kind of okay and like, okay, I don't know any of these people. and I don't know why that's even
00:03:59
Speaker
ideal. And so, you know, setting up some of that structure, that's something that helped me a lot. That's a great point. I did have you for almost all of my professional career. So getting a Susie is a very helpful get a, get a, get a Courtney or a Susie.
00:04:14
Speaker
but But it is a great point that management and that's not always super built out or encouraged in a lot of companies, but it's who was your peer in this management space that you can have these conversations with. Yeah. And find community with for
Managing Expectations and Emotions
00:04:30
Speaker
sure. Well, so the first one that we're going to talk about today is the, or in this episode is at times you will have to manage your own boss. Starting with a big one. who You know, after.
00:04:44
Speaker
The bureaucracy, which we talked about last time, this has always been, and I think will continue to be one of my biggest challenges, is managing. ah And that can take on a lot of different forms and I know you've experienced this too. And I don't think, I don't think it's always a negative thing. I think the further you go in your career and the higher up you report. So currently I report into the C-suite and then in my previous position, I reported in the C-suite too. So the higher up they are, the more they've got going on and their attention is in multiple places and multiple times. And so it's not always a bad thing. Sometimes you truly are just helping.
00:05:20
Speaker
keep things organized and directed and what do we need and this is what's going on here and my teams and their teams and so on and so forth. But then sometimes if you are just managing emotions and a man managing just like things that I get frustrated or resentful for sometimes is managing your own advocacy up when you're trying to be that for other people and you're wanting them to be that person for you and they're not more managing your one on ones or even their existence in their relationships. I've seen it and I've had to do it in so many different forms.
00:05:57
Speaker
And to me, it's one of the most emotionally taxing parts of being a people manager. What do you think? Have you had to manage that much? yes Yeah, for sure. I think it's, you said resentment. And I think that that is super, super common, and especially for people who are trying to be conscientious for their teens.
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah. If you're putting in a lot of work to try to be conscientious for your team, it can piss you off real fast. If you don't have someone who's trying to be conscientious for you. Yeah. Or if you spend a lot of energy protecting your team, same for advocating for a team or just exactly what you're just talking about. For me, the things that have been hardest have been.
00:06:40
Speaker
getting clarity and prioritization, ah that's the thing that just irks the shit out of me. yeah So I'm really big on that part of my role for my team is the buck stops with me for their capacity and their priorities.
00:06:55
Speaker
but
00:06:57
Speaker
my capacity and priorities and my team's capacity and priorities, like the book usually stops with my boss. and um Because I tend to have, I'd say an above average commitment to yeah clarity around priorities and capacity management. because and I think I'm so passionate about it because no one's ever really done it for me. and i yeah have suffered so much because of that, that anytime I can do it for someone else, I'm like, no, we are not setting ourselves up for failure here. I am not committing this team to 300% of the work. um And so I'm really passionate about doing that for my team, but that almost always means I have to work really hard to facilitate, yes, and get clarity on the decisions. And it is over and over again, this or this. Okay.
00:07:51
Speaker
ever Every executive I've talked to for ah my entire career, we have to manage priorities. We have to manage priorities and ah the majority of them suck at it. yeah But in the manager role, you have to force whoever you report to, to get really clear on the priorities. And that's the part that really makes me mad. I think that goes back to what we talked about in the last episode was hearing the comment that you need to be comfortable operating with ambiguity and I think that that is bullshit and it's a scapegoat to not wanting to be held accountable for the expectations and the decisions and the priorities that you want to set and cascade downward and I think that's so much a part of managing up is forcing accountability
00:08:37
Speaker
upward and that causes that frustration and that exhaustion and that resentment because you are protecting your team.
Challenges with Accountability from Superiors
00:08:44
Speaker
And I think that's why being a people manager is so hard. I remember, you know, when we were in our last company, there was this image of a manager and advice and talk about people managers and the manager was just like being twisted. And and that is like such a ah tangible example as you are protecting your team and also kind of taking a beating to do so. And it can be such a difficult,
00:09:06
Speaker
space to be in. and i think yeah yeah i I think I have my own triggers around that too. I expect as much commitment from above me as I will give them, which is a lot. like I can get so much done and I can manage and balance and do so much. And if my one-on-ones are constantly canceled or my opportunity to have the conversations to get the decisions that I need are constantly pushed back or moved, yet I'm held to the same deadlines and the same outcomes and the same objectives, even though the resource and support I need for my manager isn't there, that is the trigger for me of, great, well, you're constantly deciding to tell me this isn't important. You know, there have been times when I've needed to zoom out. I mean, the times when it's been most effective have been when I don't do it in the heat of the moment, although I've done that plenty of times too. But to be able to say, listen,
00:10:05
Speaker
there are some things that I need that I'm not getting right now or this isn't working for me or saying, I really need this from you in order to be effective and being able to have that hard conversation. And again, I've also felt very bitter that I even have to have that conversation because it's like, why are they paying attention to my needs and helping me? yeah yeah I'd have to go back and look few months ago, we did ah a webinar with a bunch of women in the change industry and someone said, would you rather be right? Or would you rather be effective? And that stuck with me. I think about that a lot because I'm like, damn it. No, I'm right. I should be both. But yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because there are times when I'm like, no, I shouldn't have to do this shit. This is bullshit. And sometimes it is the reality. And okay, you know what? Yeah, I really wish that I did not have to set the agenda for every single one of these. I wish you came more prepared.
00:10:59
Speaker
If I have two years of evidence, though, that you're not doing that or two months of evidence or whatever, part of my well-being might be accepting that that might not change. Also, part of my well-being might be having a calm, straightforward conversation with you about what I need yeah and giving you the opportunity to meet those needs before I write off that it's never going to happen.
Can Managing Up Be a Partnership?
00:11:22
Speaker
I think it's where a lot of people struggle is their relationship with their own manager. And I think that's where so much of this Lives and I think some of it ties into that resentment and that frustration and all of this conversation is I want to do so well for my team. I desire to have somebody who wants to do that and be that for me. I want to be seen. I want to be heard. I want to be valued and that's often a really big gap and I know
00:11:47
Speaker
That is just, I mean, i having felt that before. My emotional well-being struggles as if I'm struggling with my boss. And if it's not a safe space to ask a question, and none of us really have this luxury, although I wish we did, to just walk out the door, you know, if we're not getting to what we need. But that really usually is the straw. And it is for a lot of people. and We've seen study after study after study say that people don't leave their company, they leave their boss.
00:12:15
Speaker
Do you need somebody who's also boring into you? Yeah, as it's a mutual relationship. It is quite possible that you've been promoted because you have skills that your manager doesn't have and that there's a complimentary balance between the two of you. And and that there are times when that's a good thing, right? And that the managing of your bosses can be a really productive thing. And I've been in that situation too, where it's actually been a very beneficial partnership. And that's as much a reality that I don't know that we talk about that much.
00:12:44
Speaker
because I don't know that a lot of people will explicitly say, I'm bad at this. You're good at it. You report to me, you're better at this than I am. I'm going to need you to be the good one on this in the partnership. But I've had bosses say that to me, and that's been really awesome. Again, coming back to what we talk about a lot is that I'm already just named stuff like that.
00:13:06
Speaker
yeah Even though we feel vulnerable in naming it, be like, I'm not good at this and you report to me and I feel like I should be good at everything. The more you name that when maybe the person who reports to the person has to manage up on some of that, yeah it's a lot less icky and resentment creating because you've named that as part of how you work together.
00:13:25
Speaker
yeah And I think if we go back to just like the basic needs of anybody is, it's a lot easier if that psychological safety is in place that I can talk to you as my boss. I think managing up gets a lot easier because you feel safe to say something now feels uncomfortable, unbalanced, isn't working.
Leadership vs. Management: A False Dichotomy
00:13:45
Speaker
But when that pillar isn't there, it's that's when it it's really hard. And I think sometimes the challenge, and not always,
00:13:55
Speaker
But I do think the higher up people go in a company, they trade this idea of leadership for management and they're not mutually exclusive. And so oftentimes we think we've we think we made it somewhere because we're now a quote unquote leader.
00:14:13
Speaker
But I would argue your people management skills are are just as important, if not more at that point, because now you need to be even more effective to manage the person managing multiple teams or cascading it down. Every single management program I've ever been in or seen has some sort of discussion about what's the difference between leadership and management. And yeah but with with the implication,
00:14:37
Speaker
yeah And the conversation is always facilitated towards yeah leadership is better than management. Are they different? Yes. Are they mutually exclusive? No. Do you ever get to be a leader without also being a manager? Do you ever get to stop being a manager?
00:14:55
Speaker
Hell no. now yeah But do people do it all the time? Hell yes. Yeah. and we we These pictures and I see it on LinkedIn and I put this all the time on social media. When we type in boss and you see this like cartoon stick figure of the boss just beating his employees to get things done. And then the leader over here was some like shiny back. We're painting people managers.
00:15:17
Speaker
so negatively, yet the chief executive officer who we're calling the leader is also a people manager. To your point, yes, there are different expectations and things you need to accomplish at different roles.
00:15:31
Speaker
But you're never dropping that people management hat. It's this weird false dichotomy that we set up and that we make one more noble than the other. The prophecy fulfilling itself, like you're saying, if you're stepping into this people manager, you're going to just be terrible and make people's lives miserable. And a boss is a four letter word. and like And then people step into that role and have seen and been fed this information that you have to come in assertive and tough and be the bad guy. And the boss has to say no. Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's just really dangerous to treat them as if they're two different things that exist separately and that one's better than the other because that means it.
00:16:13
Speaker
yeah Of course, if there's one that's better than the other, that means you can pick one and not do the other. yeah And I have seen no evidence in consulting with, I don't know, however many companies have consulted with at this point and worked with. I've never seen a company that was really dysfunctional, that had an executive team of good managers.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yeah. The company's overall dysfunction is always like one-to-one and outgrowth of not their inspirational leadership. They can be as firing as hell. Yeah. But if they are not practicing good management with their teams and setting their reports up for success. yeah The entire company feels the pain of that. That shit rolls downhill. yeah And at an executive level, you do need to be able to cultivate an inspirational vision. You do need to be able to lead and you need to be able to mobilize an organization. And you also need to make good decisions, help prioritize, help manage
00:17:27
Speaker
The people who manage the people who manage the people who manage the people who manage the people. Amen, girl. Yes. It's like compound interest. When we talk about leadership and management not being mutually exclusive, I also get really tired of the inspirational bullshit about how you don't need a title to be a leader, that you can just do it from anywhere in the business. And I get that conceptually. And I like that encouraging people to take ownership of their role and their part.
00:17:53
Speaker
But I also think it's bullshit because it takes advantage of the person, anybody who's the overachiever who will get it done, who will move it forward without necessarily giving them the right credentials and the right compensation for the work that they're doing and creates this path for poor management higher up. We need like Courtney and Susie call bullshit on all of them. Bullshit. You should pull up memes. but not I love it. I love it, man. Wow. Okay.
Are Managers Set Up to Fail?
00:18:22
Speaker
Well, speaking of, why don't we talk about the next one, which is you you might be set up to fail before you begin. So when you wrote this, what were you talking about in relation to that?
00:18:30
Speaker
In part, I was talking about some of the culmination of a lot of these pieces is you've got to figure out a lot before you can even get started. But I also think just ties into that antiquated paradigm of to make more money, be a people manager. And if you're not equipped with the skill sets to do so and the questions to ask and the way to create psychological safety, or if you're taking on a team that's already failing or ah has really challenging dynamics, there's just a lot of factors that exist before you even walk into that role.
00:19:06
Speaker
that you might have no control over or what if you know there was a massive turnover on that team and now you've been brought into a team that's only you know a fraction of what they were a couple months ago yet you have these exorbitant expectations to bring it back up to this high functioning, high performing. There are just factors that you're not aware of or you weren't informed about due to politics, bureaucracy, whatever that exists. What are the team dynamics that I'm walking into? What was the manager like before? Why did they leave? What goals weren't they hitting? If they were like, oh, why did you let them go? What did they do?
00:19:44
Speaker
If you were brought in from the outside, why didn't you promote from within? What what doesn't the team within the company have to fill this role? The questions that help you understand the reality of what you're walking into so that you're not set up to fail before you even begin.
00:20:00
Speaker
like Do I even want to take this on? Someone adjacent to the project I'm working on right now took on a new management role and is insanely overwhelmed. like and and so A couple of weeks ago, I noticed a market shift in their energy. and vibe on a meeting. And I was like, Oh, yikes. This person does not seem to be doing too great. And then I found out that that person had been promoted and that they were now leading the team they were on. It was before they'd been like a senior individual contributor. Yeah. In a conversation with someone else, I was talking about some of the work that was doing this team. And I said, yeah, you know, that person, they just go over the team. It seems like they're a little overwhelmed right now. So I'm just going to hold off on asking them for this until things settle down a little bit.
00:20:47
Speaker
And this person said, yeah, they have super high turnover in that role and it is an incredibly hard job. And I don't think it's going to get better for them. And as we're having this conversation, I'm like, you know what?
00:21:04
Speaker
Perhaps the answer isn't to just churn and burn the people through the role, right? Like, what's the request here, right? And to your point, it can be really easy to look at these situations when they're an opportunity for you and be like,
00:21:22
Speaker
Oh, I can fix all that. That'll be fine. It's like, I really want to date this super hot guy who is clearly a mess, but don't worry. I
Evaluating Context Before Accepting Management Roles
00:21:30
Speaker
can fix him. ah Sometimes you need to accept it. Sometimes you got to face reality, but I think to your point, asking those wise questions and understanding what's the context of what you're walking into. And is that something that you do want to take on or not, or what resources will you have that are what makes it different than it was before? I just really think about this particular manager who has stepped into a long-standing pattern and there have been no changes to the context that have created the pattern.
00:22:05
Speaker
When I think of myself and you said something like this, if it sounds exciting, it sounds cool, I'm going to say yes pretty quickly without thinking about it, or what is our ego telling us about the title that's tied with it or the pay. I think about that when we see a lot of these stories about the Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies bringing in women executives to a failing situation. and We see these challenges of the low number of female executives in the space, but also stepping into an environment to almost take the fall or to take the blame for the issues that are happening. What is that context that you're not seeing the bigger picture that might be in place? yeah
00:22:48
Speaker
And do you want to tie your name, yourself, your position, your confidence to that? Or what do you need to be in place and what do you need to get commitment for in order to take that on? I i like to fancy myself kind of a turnaround specialist, right? I do like taking on the sinking ship, although it's very exhausting and I have to be kind of careful about how often I do that. um But the only times I've really done that is when I know that I have super strong executive support or I already have buy-in from some of the other key stakeholders for that team. Like I said, there's in the last episode, there are times then if that team is struggling, there's a reason. And I will need to go battle it out with a few key people who might be making life very difficult for that team. However, for me to take that on,
00:23:35
Speaker
ah Usually, I've got to be really clear that I know I have the bigger dog on my side before I do that. And in that case, then taking on a higher risk situation has been worth it and very fulfilling for me, but I've really probed before. And I've said, okay, if you want me to take this on, will you have my back on it? And if we have that, then I feel like I might be going into a high risk situation, but I'm not being set up to fail.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah.
Negotiation and Fair Pay for Women
00:24:04
Speaker
Yeah. And i knowing what to say now too. I've seen you do that. I've done that with the much encouragement from you, but knowing when to say no as well. No, this isn't working. No, this isn't right. No, this isn't what I want. No, this isn't enough money. And that ties actually into the next one. Yeah. Probably aren't getting paid enough.
00:24:27
Speaker
This is so important to me and I struggle. I will advocate all day long for somebody else and I have no problem. I can go to bat for any of my team's pay anytime and I'm relentless. Like you don't want me showing up.
00:24:43
Speaker
In your honest case, you're the one approving the pay because I will be there every day till it happens. When it comes to myself, it's a lot of harder, which I think is true for many, many people. So when I left my last company, I think I had somewhere between 30 and 35 direct reports and I was managing a manager who had a large team.
00:25:06
Speaker
In that too, and in that six years, I probably managed close to a hundred different people given and turnover promotions, things like that. Anyways, I can think of two people. I went into it every hiring conversation with a base.
00:25:22
Speaker
This is a whole other conversation whether I thought the base range for this position was fair, but I went in with knowing what the base was and knowing how much room I had to flex and I expected to negotiate every time, thanks twice.
00:25:37
Speaker
People negotiated and I'm saying I probably hired close to 100 people twice. I can think of few percent and entry level. It was entry level position for the most part, not every hiring one, but twice. And they were both men who negotiated. Never one time did I hire a female into this role who negotiated.
00:25:57
Speaker
Why do you think that is? Well, I think from my experience, it's hard. It's uncomfortable. No one teaches you. It feels selfish. It feels greedy. And we are just taught whether it is covert or overt as women to say thank you and get into the job and be grateful that you have it. That's kind of the mentality and the subconscious belief that I still to this day work to break down. People that I hired and started to have those conversations, I would start to say, okay, if you're going to apply for this other role, you need to negotiate. This is how length things I want you to ask are questions I want you to ask.
00:26:36
Speaker
right It's just shocking to me how how few and that's just like my one little anecdotal evidence of that reality. No one's offering the max possible of the range on the first time. To your point, the entry level nature of the role I think is, that's really interesting. My first manager in my first corporate role told me from here on out in your career, always negotiate every offer you ever get. yeah And I'm really glad that he told me that because I don't think that I would have
00:27:13
Speaker
realized that for a while. What you did was was interesting was that you that was part of how you mentored them professionally. Yeah. for the next roll right yeah well I think the reality too, when we go back to the job, never really matches the description. If you're taking manager role as an add-on and you're not getting significant pay increase, I think that's already a red flag. This is a whole nother role. Managing people is never.
00:27:43
Speaker
an add-on, the exhaustion, the time, the energy, the policies, the paperwork, the bureaucracy, the planning, the foreshadowing, the emotions, all of it. It should be a role on its own, but it's rarely its own. and So I think that's just when you're going into those negotiation conversations from individual contributor to people manager.
00:28:07
Speaker
there should be a fair, sizable, reasonable compensation increase. Yes. Something we talked about a couple of episodes ago was, you know, as a manager, we're always kind of managing the tension between holding the interest of the business and the interest of people. And you know, the guidance is every company I've ever worked at is offer them as low as you can in the acceptable range. And if they negotiate up, great. But if not, we're saving the company money, which also kind of benefits everyone in a way, right? That's part of that tension, right? of Do I feel like what I am being instructed to do from my HR business partner, from the compensation team is actually fair to the person I'm giving this offer to. There are some companies that have more structure around this that make it easier. They have better documentation. They have documented benchmarks that they do against comparable
00:28:58
Speaker
sized companies and industries that they publish. That's been something that I think is really helpful for managers. if they If they can say, this is not subjective, this is the methodology that our company uses to determine these ranges, yeah that can be really helpful. But for you as a manager, again, it's so funny because we keep defaulting to talking about advocating for our teams, which is our nature, not ourselves, which is hilarious. I do think it is very common to say, okay, this person is making this amount as an individual contributor.
00:29:28
Speaker
What's the minimum amount that we can pay them to take on this extra scope of work? And I do think that just part of the reality that bigger compensation moves happen when you go from company to company. So what I try to do is saying, let's not think about this manager role in context of my current role. Let's wipe the slate clean and say, what is this role? And then let's go look at the comps and the benchmarks for this role.
00:29:57
Speaker
And let's pretend I don't have the role I currently have. That's been helpful. Again, I will say, I don't think I've ever really felt like I got the commensurate increase unless I've moved to another company. So that's also kind of part of the Navy reality. Yeah. No, I think that's such a great point in this mind blowing.
00:30:17
Speaker
To me, the amount of money that companies waste on letting knowledge walk out the door and the money they'll spend on replacing that employee versus just having a fair, reasonable conversation about the market value of the role they're expecting. And then they'll go out and hire somebody for a significant amount more. It's, it's mind blowing to me, but yeah, that's a story for another day. I think our last one and I, uh,
00:30:47
Speaker
I feel this all
Coping with Overwhelm in Management
00:30:48
Speaker
the time. but You will be overwhelmed the majority of the time as a people manager. And I'm sure there are people that, that is not true. And that I would be curious to have that conversation with you because I think, and I'm sure it ties into how many people you're managing, how much other work is on your plate. But the second I stepped into a people manager, especially when it was a large team.
00:31:12
Speaker
It was just running into a brick wall of going from everything being completely manageable, having this sense of completing work for the day and going home and feeling good. Like, oh, my work's done. Now I'm going to forget about you to constantly.
00:31:28
Speaker
Having emails, text messages, phone calls. Never done. It's something to think about. A performance review to complete, a performance improvement plan to do, whatever it might be. You have to expect to walk into this role, never being caught up again.
00:31:46
Speaker
just And if that's super important to you, then this might not be the, the, the gift for you. And that's okay. 100%. This has always been true for me. I have seen this to be true essentially without exception for every single person in a managerial role in a corporate setting in every single industry that I've come in contact with for the last 15 years.
00:32:16
Speaker
I find the sense of overwhelm almost always comes from what you just said because there's always so much more to do than I have time to do. Yes. And then I'm like, well, okay, then do I want to be miserable all the time? Overwhelm is a feeling. So is there a way for me to one, manage the reality to reduce the requirements you feel overwhelmed? And I think there is something you can do there. Yeah. And also can I just accept that this is what it is and I'm going to try to manage how much I allow it to make me feel overwhelmed all the time. yeah I am going to create space between that that and how I'm letting it affect me. That is, I think pretty hard and I have to have some pretty good mental and emotional reserves to regulate that way. And I do think when people say overwhelm, it can sometimes be attributed more to women. I know a lot of men who are really freaking over overwhelmed. Yeah. i do Every single men fall eat more fearful.
00:33:17
Speaker
to share that they're over overwhelmed. And I think women are more willing to vocalize it and call out. Even some of the bullshit of the expectation that this is normal. You know, when we say that there are solutions, we didn't talk about this, but there are boundaries too. I have found a lot of times when I talk to my male counterparts that they are more uncomfortable with the idea of setting boundaries than women are. And I think that that is an interesting challenge and a conversation we need to have across the board because that's going to be key.
00:33:47
Speaker
in managing overwhelm and that's something i learned the hard way i was like
00:33:52
Speaker
yeah like any time and yeah that's like i'm hoping you that that was kind of my own fault I have a really good example of this actually in the last. Two weeks I've had, and again, I don't think this is not necessarily universally true by gender, right? So I don't want to act like that is, but i yeah this is just an example. I'm working with two different managers and I've needed stuff from them over the last couple of weeks. And one of them, yeah he just happened to be a man. I know that he is up to here. And because he has said, my team is up to here, I'm up to here.
00:34:28
Speaker
He's said that in so many words, right? not Not quite as eloquently, but how I know this to be especially true is when I made a request, he lit me up in a extremely unprofessional way, which is where I had to set some boundaries about professional treatment that I expect. yeah My belief is that that reaction of his was an algorithm that he's extremely overwhelmed right now. yeah My intuition and just kind of understanding when working with him for a while now, I think that's true. yeah In another conversation, I was working with another manager and I also made a request of her and she took a breath and she said, I'm going to be honest. I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now. There is a lot going on and I have some really urgent stuff I need to do.
00:35:16
Speaker
And I don't think I can take that on right now. And I said, that makes total sense. When can we come back to it? Because I do need her to do this thing. It is somewhat time-sensinging critical. And we can figure out something in in the middle here. And it was so helpful for her to just name it. And and I respect her.
00:35:42
Speaker
more coming out of that conversation.
Using Transparency to Manage Overwhelm
00:35:44
Speaker
yeah I wish that's what people would understand about just transparency and vulnerability is it's going to catapult you forward. It's not going to hold you down. People aren't going to judge you more than likely. They probably feel the same way. There's probably things they need to work through, but I mean, think of just how productive you want to be and how your support will go with that first manager versus the second, you know, how willing yeah the engagement is or the relationship.
00:36:11
Speaker
efficiency together now because of that yeah outburst of the emotion that exists, but was uncomfortable to be expressed. I think you're right that in general, I've never seen that transparency really backfire big time. I do think there are environments where if you say, Hey, I'm overwhelmed, they're like, well, someone else will take this job to suck it up or get in deal with it. Yeah. That's my next experience though.
00:36:35
Speaker
kind of right now as well. I wish the luxury did exist for people and myself and everybody included to just be like, no, I do have a choice. I do. yeah yeah yeah For the tactics of what can we put into place, right? To try and help manage this, to help mitigate this and how far her, how long do you want to sustain these tactics till that decision point arrives of, is this working for me? Is this working for my family? Is this working for my social life, my community, the things that I wanted to do to fulfill myself as a person outside of this job? And I think that's shit we don't really talk about too, is at what point is the answer?
00:37:16
Speaker
No, I don't want to do this. This isn't working for me. Yeah. And if the answer is tough shit, deal with it or get out. I also do think that there's probably an alternative route to cut down on the stuff that's causing the overwhelm before you call it, but it just takes a lot of finagling and a lot of political maneuvering to get there. And I would always say if it is truly impacting your mental health, your emotional wellbeing, then that might be your escalation to Find ah some other solution or have those tough conversations. Because that's the stuff that I think is also show we don't talk about is there are other options. There are alternatives. How do we find them? How do we work through them? How do we yeah do that? We have more power. yeah Yeah. I think there's always some of the power in that. and Be those tough shit managers to be right. And we're all going to report to them at one time. or Or environmentally, I think transparently both you and I
00:38:09
Speaker
have experienced some really good cultures and some really open leadership and things like that, and some challenging ones too. But then we've been inside some of the corporate world where you know those dynamics, they are the culture that hustle, go, go, go, never stop, 80 hour weeks, that they're the culture. So there's tactics in there too. So much of what we've talked about, about this shit that no one tells you is that Expectation setting is everything. Accepting reality is everything. Not fighting reality and learning how to work with reality is everything, right? And this is one of those where if you're ever expecting to be fully done, you're probably going to never be happy. You're probably going to always feel like a failure and you're going to always feel really overwhelmed. and yeah
00:38:55
Speaker
So one, knowing yourself and knowing, will I thrive and do good work in a situation where the finish line keeps moving and things are never done? And if that's the case and you don't think you'll be happier, do good work, maybe that's not the job for you. Or or can you say, okay, this is how it is going to be. How do I need to adjust to be able to survive this and and still enjoy the work and to be able to shut my computer off and yeah walk went and walk away? Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:24
Speaker
I think boundaries are the answer to that. Let's talk about next time. Tensions and boundaries. I love it. ah Awesome. All right. well thank for and all right Thanks everyone. Talk to you next time.