Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
76 Lily Lindon | Rom-com Author and Editor
408 Plays3 years ago
Romantic comedy author and editor, Lily Lindon, joins Jamie this week to tell us all about her debut novel, Double Booked, a bisexual rom-com. Turns out even experienced editors experience all of the same woes and stresses that other debut novelists go through! Lily goes on to tell us all about her work at Penguin Random House's Vintage before she moved over to Novelry. If you hang around to the end you will be treated to the two of us waxing lyrical about sausage dogs, Terry Pratchett and Lily's hypothetical book that answers the questions of life the universe and everything.
Signing up to the Patreon will give you access to the Discord server, where you'll be able to interact directly with Jamie as well as many of the previous agents, authors and editors who have been on the show. You'll also be able to see who the upcoming guests are and put forward questions for Jamie to ask them.
Get a whole month with WriteMentor's Hub for free using the coupon code 'Write&Wrong'.
The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes
Jamie, Melissa and Noami talk about the best and the worst writing tropes!
Click here to find all of our guests' books as well as the desert island library over at bookshop.org.
Click on this referral link to get 30% off your first three months with Zencastr.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction & Zencastr Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi guys, quick one before we get into the episode.
00:00:02
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zencaster, which is the production suite that I've used from the very beginning of this podcast.
00:00:06
Speaker
And if you're interested in starting your own podcast, hang around at the end of the episode for our 30% discount referral code.
00:00:12
Speaker
Thanks.
Podcast and Guest Introduction
00:00:13
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:14
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:16
Speaker
These are your notes about what we're going to say.
00:00:19
Speaker
Anything is a short answer.
00:00:21
Speaker
So how many novels did you not finish?
00:00:24
Speaker
Oh my God, so many.
00:00:26
Speaker
It was perfect.
00:00:28
Speaker
What are you talking about?
00:00:29
Speaker
This is not a spicy question.
00:00:32
Speaker
I love it.
00:00:33
Speaker
This is it guys.
00:00:34
Speaker
The big secret to getting publishers and have to write a good book.
00:00:38
Speaker
We're going
00:00:43
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:45
Speaker
I'm Jamie and joining me today is author, editor, bookie McBookface herself, Lily Linden.
00:00:55
Speaker
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
00:00:56
Speaker
What a lovely introduction.
00:01:00
Speaker
This is by no means your first rodeo.
00:01:03
Speaker
You, in fact, have a podcast of your own.
00:01:06
Speaker
Oh, I do.
00:01:07
Speaker
I do.
00:01:07
Speaker
It's now quite defunct.
00:01:10
Speaker
I did it a couple of years ago, I guess.
00:01:12
Speaker
Gosh, maybe even pre-lockdown, which is very fun.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's called Whitlet.
00:01:17
Speaker
If anyone likes listening to people talking about funny books, they can go there.
00:01:21
Speaker
Wow, I haven't even been here for a minute and I'm already promoting my own podcast.
00:01:25
Speaker
I mean, that's what
Lily's Debut Novel & Launch Party
00:01:26
Speaker
it's all about, right?
00:01:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:28
Speaker
But yeah, I haven't done it in a while, but yeah, maybe now that I'm sort of post-publication, I should revive it.
00:01:36
Speaker
And yeah, it's fun, isn't it, talking to people?
00:01:38
Speaker
It is, yeah.
00:01:40
Speaker
Especially about books and just chatting about all the publishing stuff.
00:01:43
Speaker
So it's on hiatus, it's not cancelled.
00:01:46
Speaker
You might come back to it.
00:01:47
Speaker
I might come back to it.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, watch the space.
00:01:51
Speaker
But there's no schedule or anything?
00:01:52
Speaker
There is no schedule.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:56
Speaker
Okay, well, let's plug more of your stuff and talk about the most exciting news that your debut novel, Double Booked, now out into the world.
00:02:06
Speaker
Yes, indeed.
00:02:07
Speaker
Amazing.
00:02:08
Speaker
How's the launch been?
00:02:10
Speaker
I had a lovely party, which made me feel very glamorous.
00:02:14
Speaker
I know how rare it is to have a launch party, so I felt very sort of spoiled and I felt like a lovely princess.
00:02:23
Speaker
I also sort of...
00:02:25
Speaker
I feel like the point of the launch is to, yes, make the author feel very nice and special, but also to get them to emotionally blackmail all of their friends into buying a copy on the day.
00:02:34
Speaker
So, yeah, it was just very funny sort of being in a room and being like, please, please, can you all buy a copy of this book?
00:02:43
Speaker
But yeah, launch was good.
00:02:44
Speaker
I think it has just been, I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but it has been weird kind of now being on the published, you know, the author side when I'm used to having been on the editor side.
00:02:57
Speaker
So there have been
00:02:58
Speaker
People, I think, assume that I'm going to be more chill about the process because I have some kind of insider knowledge.
00:03:06
Speaker
But I feel like, if anything, I don't know, I'm definitely still discovering things and surprised by the whole experience.
Editorial Journey & Career Insights
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think based on the people I've spoken to, no matter how much you know about how it works and how many times you've been in proximity to that and seen it happen,
00:03:28
Speaker
you can't really until you've experienced yourself you can't really know what it's like people often say like the second on the second book that's when you're sort of more relaxed about it because you've done it once but yeah yeah well fingers crossed um so tell us about the book itself double booked um for for me and everyone listening what what is it about what inspired you to write it
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, well, you'd think I'd have my sort of elevated pitch by now.
00:03:56
Speaker
Well, you're done with that.
00:03:57
Speaker
It's already out.
00:03:58
Speaker
I don't need that anymore.
00:03:59
Speaker
I can do my essays again.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, Double Booked.
00:04:03
Speaker
Well, it's a bisexual rom-com.
00:04:04
Speaker
It's about Georgina, who is a 27-year-old living in London.
00:04:09
Speaker
And she thinks she's got her life completely sorted out.
00:04:13
Speaker
She's got a steady job as a piano teacher that she hates.
00:04:16
Speaker
She's got a long term boyfriend who she does love.
00:04:20
Speaker
And she's got a sort of schedule of repeating events in her calendar.
00:04:25
Speaker
But one day her best friend takes her to go and see this cult lesbian pop band.
00:04:31
Speaker
And Georgina, seeing them, sort of realises a lot of things.
00:04:36
Speaker
She realises that she misses performing and that she wishes that she was doing that again.
00:04:40
Speaker
And she also, through her, she also realises that she might not be straight because of her huge crush on the very sexy drummer.
00:04:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:52
Speaker
So Georgina doesn't know what to do.
00:04:54
Speaker
She doesn't want to lose her old life, but she's also feeling this draw into a new life.
00:05:00
Speaker
So she does what any sensible person would do, and she splits her life in two.
00:05:04
Speaker
She's going to be straight Gina by day and gay George by night.
00:05:08
Speaker
What could possibly go wrong?
00:05:11
Speaker
Well, I mean, brilliant stuff.
00:05:16
Speaker
And you surround yourself with funny people and you are...
00:05:23
Speaker
You are known, I think, in the editing circles as working almost exclusively on funny... That's interesting.
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:32
Speaker
I mean, you said we were going to come back to it.
00:05:33
Speaker
I'm immediately going to circle back to it.
00:05:35
Speaker
You have obviously been in proximity to lots of people going through these launches, going through editing in your own work as an editor.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:45
Speaker
you've worked on other people's books.
00:05:47
Speaker
Was it strange having been on that side of it for so long to sort of have your own work and then hand it over to another expert?
00:05:55
Speaker
Definitely.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
I think it probably helped that my writing is quite different to the kinds of books that I was working on at the time.
00:06:04
Speaker
So I think that there was a kind of ability to compartmentalize in some way there, which was helpful.
00:06:09
Speaker
I wasn't like working with sort of colleagues on my own book, if that makes sense.
00:06:15
Speaker
Although, you know, that would have been great for nepotism, but unfortunately I wrote something very different.
00:06:22
Speaker
So, yeah, I think that, you know, for example, I think,
00:06:28
Speaker
My editor, who is Laura Palmer, who's head of Zeus, is wonderful.
00:06:33
Speaker
And I think she's at the launch, she sort of said something quite funny about me being the only author that has ever sort of sent through editorial notes with my book.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:45
Speaker
I think that there probably is a part of it where I'm, I'm, I'm very, I love the editorial process from both sides.
00:06:52
Speaker
And I think that certainly some kind of, some writers before they're published and sort of during that process, I think partly because publishing is just very opaque and sort of scary and people really care about their writing.
00:07:08
Speaker
And so editors can kind of seem like these far away baddies.
00:07:12
Speaker
Um,
00:07:13
Speaker
And I think obviously I'm biased and I think the editors are wonderful and sort of, I really love that process.
00:07:20
Speaker
So I guess, um,
00:07:22
Speaker
The editorial process for me was just one of the biggest joys and the feeling of sort of talking to someone in depth about something that I'd made up was, you know, just really, really fun.
00:07:34
Speaker
And I really value all of their input.
00:07:37
Speaker
And I think, you know, they've made the book so much better through their suggestions.
00:07:42
Speaker
And also, I think having those other people involved just, you know,
00:07:48
Speaker
sort of gave me permission to, I guess, challenge myself to try and make it the best that it could be as well.
00:07:52
Speaker
I think there's only so far that you can go by yourself because, um, you sort of start to see the book in a certain way, or you just, you know, you just get fed up because you've been working on it by yourself for ages and having other people, uh, looking at it, it just felt like this real, you know, reinvigoration.
00:08:09
Speaker
And that's what I'm currently experiencing with book
Publishing Process & Agent Search
00:08:12
Speaker
two as well.
00:08:12
Speaker
Um, because I, um, uh, I've just had my editorial notes, um,
00:08:17
Speaker
for book two.
00:08:18
Speaker
So I'm sort of very excited about getting to do that again and make it out of the pile of poo that it currently is and into something legible.
00:08:27
Speaker
Oh, that's great.
00:08:28
Speaker
And Head of Zeus obviously picked this up.
00:08:32
Speaker
Laura chose it.
00:08:33
Speaker
When you were, you're no longer an editor with Penguin Random House, you're now at Novelry, which we'll get onto later.
00:08:42
Speaker
When you were working as an editor, were you involved with the choosing of books and that kind of commissioning process?
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah, I did commission a few books, I suppose.
00:08:54
Speaker
So I had a, I don't know if it's helpful, but a little potted, I guess, my career was that my first job was in publicity, actually, at Penguin.
00:09:04
Speaker
I was on something called The Scheme, which is a kind of traineeship.
00:09:08
Speaker
And my first job was in the children's department in publicity.
00:09:12
Speaker
And I then went over to Transworld, which is a kind of commercial imprint as part of Penguin Random House.
00:09:17
Speaker
And then I moved over to vintage, which is, I guess, a more kind of literary imprint of division, although they do have a lot of variety as well.
00:09:26
Speaker
And it was there that I then became an editor through, you know, the various moving rounds and moving ups.
00:09:34
Speaker
And when I was commissioning, I only commissioned when I moved into the classics department.
00:09:40
Speaker
So I guess I sort of, I think I've had probably quite,
00:09:44
Speaker
I mean, there isn't a typical trajectory in publishing at all, but I think I, something that was, I guess, unusual about me was that I did have quite a lot of breadth, I guess, in the kinds of things that I was working on.
00:09:56
Speaker
Um, whereas I think some people do specialize sort of very early and then continue to remain in that kind of, you know, genre publishing, say, um,
00:10:04
Speaker
So I was commissioning, yes, but I was more involved with classics, which is quite a different part of the industry.
00:10:13
Speaker
So I was sometimes working with commissioning new writers, either because I was involved with, say, reading manuscripts for other editors.
00:10:24
Speaker
There was a lot of collaboration internally.
00:10:27
Speaker
So, you know, for example, even if one editor is the person who actually kind of buys the rights to something, there will probably have been, you know, three or four other editors who read it at the same time and were giving, you know, their sort of praise in order for it to get, you know, bought and that kind of thing.
00:10:46
Speaker
So it is very team orientated.
00:10:48
Speaker
But I guess the commissioning that I was doing was, was, was,
00:10:51
Speaker
Slightly different.
00:10:53
Speaker
I was maybe commissioning essays to go at the front of classic books, or it was more about, say, books that had fallen out of print and buying the rights to those.
00:11:03
Speaker
Or it was, say, books that were being translated into English for the first time and sort of acquiring the rights to those.
00:11:10
Speaker
So by the time I was commissioning, I didn't have as much of that sort of, I guess, editorial...
00:11:18
Speaker
input because the authors were dead and I wasn't going to be sort of claiming to change Jane Austen or something.
00:11:26
Speaker
You don't want to do that.
00:11:27
Speaker
No, you don't want to do that.
00:11:29
Speaker
So yeah, it was kind of more of a, the parts of my role that I really enjoyed were things like, um,
00:11:36
Speaker
you know, something I'm proud of, I guess, is, um, commissioning the, uh, the love letters of Virginia Woolf and Vita Sagra West.
00:11:43
Speaker
And I guess what was different about that was I ended up sort of, um, editing that myself.
00:11:48
Speaker
So I put the, you know, um, the, the sort of extracts, I chose those and selected them and ordered them and, you know, wrote the little introductory bits.
00:11:57
Speaker
Um, so I suppose, yeah, it was quite an unusual, I guess, um,
00:12:02
Speaker
editorial experience at that stage.
00:12:05
Speaker
But I'd sort of come through all of these different various bits, which meant that I did have that experience of more in-depth editorial bits earlier on.
00:12:15
Speaker
Sorry, I've spoken for a very long time there.
00:12:17
Speaker
That's so interesting.
00:12:18
Speaker
That's a whole side of editorial that I wasn't really aware of in my mind.
00:12:24
Speaker
being a commissioning editor is you read all the submissions from the agents and you pick the ones that you think are going to.
00:12:30
Speaker
So that's really interesting to know that.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:32
Speaker
And, you know, there is, um, there is a part of that because, you know, for example, um, there would be, there are wonderful, you know, uh, heritage or classic kind of agents.
00:12:41
Speaker
So for example, um, over at Curtis Brown, um,
00:12:44
Speaker
The wonderful Laura and Becky are sort of a real powerhouse of classic rights.
00:12:48
Speaker
So they would be sending things if something came up.
00:12:53
Speaker
So there would definitely still be that element of, you know, you're reading manuscripts and you're talking to your team about it and you take it through the acquiring process, the acquisitions process in-house.
00:13:03
Speaker
So that kind of stuff was still there.
00:13:05
Speaker
I just, at the point that I was commissioning, there was a slightly different, I guess, relationship with the words in a way.
00:13:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker
So that's why I guess I now really enjoy being at the Novelry where my job is not about the publishing, but it is about that really in-depth kind of editorial feedback part of the job.
00:13:26
Speaker
So yeah, I feel like I've experienced different parts of it at different times in sort of quite a fun way.
00:13:31
Speaker
That's cool.
00:13:32
Speaker
I mean, since we're on the Novelry now, why don't you tell us the sort of services and things that Novelry offers?
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah, so... It's very different.
00:13:41
Speaker
It's not a publisher in the same way.
00:13:43
Speaker
No, exactly.
00:13:44
Speaker
So the novelry is kind of creative writing workshops, essentially.
00:13:49
Speaker
It's a kind of community for writers.
00:13:53
Speaker
And there are these various different courses.
00:13:56
Speaker
But there's also, I think, something that is really cool about it is...
00:14:00
Speaker
is that there are the options for people to have feedback and sort of mentorship from published authors and editors.
00:14:12
Speaker
Of which you are both.
00:14:13
Speaker
Of which I am both, yes.
00:14:16
Speaker
I sort of have my editor hat on at the Novelry, but there are brilliant authors who do tutoring and mentoring.
00:14:22
Speaker
And what that means is, you know, one of the services, for example, that you can get if you're an aspiring writer is to send through your manuscript and get, you know, detailed line by line feedback on your manuscript and also then, you know, talk through all of the structural notes.
00:14:40
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:14:42
Speaker
What I think is cool about that is that normally a writer wouldn't get that until post, you know, the book has been bought.
00:14:49
Speaker
So normally you might get that, I guess, from your agent once you've signed with them.
00:14:55
Speaker
But if you are someone who is desperately trying to get an agent and trying to get published, you don't really have the opportunities for that kind of really detailed sort of expert feedback process.
00:15:05
Speaker
um very often obviously there are other services that do kind of manuscript assessments but i think that um yeah what i like about my sort of role there is being able to talk um to the people whose work i've then sort of given this feedback to and it feels like a kind of potted author editor relationship um and i get to do that with sort of lots of different um brilliant sort of aspiring writers so um yeah that is a really fun part of the job for me
00:15:34
Speaker
Awesome.
00:15:34
Speaker
So you're a bit more connected than you might be working at a big publishing house.
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny because, you know, when you're an editor and you're publishing someone, the relationship is, you know, brilliant and very close, but you...
00:15:53
Speaker
you know, you have various different editors, you have various different writers on your list and you will tend to work very, very closely with people at certain times in the kind of, I guess, writing schedule.
00:16:05
Speaker
So, you know, you'll speak to them a lot around edits and then around publication, but there will be big gaps in between where you don't really, you know, speak to each other.
00:16:14
Speaker
Um,
00:16:15
Speaker
And I guess, yeah, so something that I quite like about the novelry is that you get to sort of do just those intense bits like all the time without the sort of gaps in between.
00:16:25
Speaker
I don't know.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:26
Speaker
No, it sounds like a really nice sort of just similar.
00:16:30
Speaker
I mean, you're effectively mechanically working in a similar way, but it's a nice way to be sort of, yeah, I guess in a closer kind of relationship with the author itself.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:40
Speaker
Do you mostly, the people that work with novelry, is it mostly unagented authors?
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, I guess sometimes there are people who have, you know, got an agent or they've been published and they're working on another novel and they just want, you know, some more, I guess, structure or feedback or advice.
00:16:59
Speaker
But it tends to be people who
00:17:02
Speaker
have um you know wanted to write a novel for ages and then they do a course for example one of the like write a novel in 90 days kind of courses or it will be someone who has been writing for years and years and they they sort of want um in-depth feedback about their work um in order to sort of move it forward so yeah we're kind of like pre pre-agent agents in a way i guess okay amazing and and speaking of agents um i'm aware that
00:17:31
Speaker
Your book ended up in, was it a four-way auction?
Publishing Industry Challenges
00:17:35
Speaker
Something like that, yeah.
00:17:36
Speaker
Something like that.
00:17:37
Speaker
Something every author dreams of happening.
00:17:40
Speaker
Oh yeah, it was really lovely.
00:17:42
Speaker
Eventually, obviously, getting picked up by Head of Zeus.
00:17:46
Speaker
Were you signed with an agent when that was happening?
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:50
Speaker
So, so my agent is, um, the lovely Heli Ogden at Jank Lone Nesbitt, um, who is currently on maternity like everyone else in publishing.
00:17:57
Speaker
Um, so, um, yeah, so, um, yeah, I guess, um, I sent it out, um, to, uh, yeah, a few agents.
00:18:08
Speaker
Um, and I think,
00:18:10
Speaker
I know it sort of sounds so sort of falsely modest now, but I think I just really didn't expect anyone to be interested in it.
00:18:16
Speaker
So I didn't think hugely, I think I wanted a sort of signal from people that was either, Oh my God, Lily, this is embarrassing.
00:18:25
Speaker
Please stop.
00:18:27
Speaker
Or that was like, Lily, there is something good here, but like, here's a little bit of, you know, feedback about how to sort of take this forwards.
00:18:35
Speaker
And I,
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, so obviously it was like flattering and yeah, I know this sounds gross, but just quite surprising when people were interested.
00:18:46
Speaker
But yeah, Heli, I think...
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, there were some wonderful people.
00:18:52
Speaker
I think part of the problem was that there were some agents who I just wanted to be friends with.
00:18:57
Speaker
And I was like, oh, I feel like I probably shouldn't have an agent that I just really want to go to parties with.
00:19:03
Speaker
Not that I wouldn't want to go to a party with Heli, but I think she sort of has more of a...
00:19:08
Speaker
he was more of an authoritative person for me.
00:19:10
Speaker
And I was like, oh, she's, she's going to tell me off if I don't meet my deadlines.
00:19:15
Speaker
And that was what I wanted.
00:19:17
Speaker
That's what you needed.
00:19:18
Speaker
Exactly.
00:19:19
Speaker
Exactly.
00:19:20
Speaker
Rather than, yeah.
00:19:22
Speaker
Sort of someone that I desperately wanted to go and get drunk with.
00:19:25
Speaker
So yeah, that was lovely.
00:19:27
Speaker
And then Heli gave me some great notes and I reworked it for a few months and then we submitted in, I don't know, something like, um,
00:19:36
Speaker
March I think so I'd signed with her at Christmas which was a again just a really dumb time for me to be sending it out but it all worked out so it's fine yeah and then we sent it out in something like March and that was you know just a real weird week because you know you just have
00:19:59
Speaker
You just have no idea whether things are going to go very quickly or very slowly.
00:20:07
Speaker
And I think having seen it go both ways or a complete variety of ways, I think I was aware of how much of a lottery that whole process can be.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:18
Speaker
But I think, yeah, the most, the loveliest part of that process was, you know, it was obviously horrifying in a lot of ways because I didn't have much self-preservation and I asked Heli to send me all of the rejection emails as well.
00:20:32
Speaker
Oh gosh, I see you're a masochist.
00:20:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:35
Speaker
I love to hate myself.
00:20:36
Speaker
So, yeah, that was kind of slightly weird, but also helpful, you know, and a lot of the feedback that people were like, you know, that gave in those, even when they were saying, you know, that they weren't that they weren't going to pursue it.
00:20:50
Speaker
I worked a lot of that feedback in during the editorial process when it then did go.
00:20:55
Speaker
So, you know, it was helpful, you know, horrible, but helpful.
00:21:00
Speaker
And yeah, it was just so exciting to speak to people.
00:21:04
Speaker
I think that was what was so lovely about it was the people who...
00:21:11
Speaker
you know, it's a huge amount of work that editors put in to make a pitch.
00:21:16
Speaker
You know, if you as the author are lucky enough to have sort of multiple people interested, it does feel a bit like I'm the bell of the ball and people are sort of trying to, you know, get on my dance card.
00:21:26
Speaker
And that is really lovely.
00:21:28
Speaker
And speaking to people and like knowing that these are brilliant editors and each of them having like a different take on what
00:21:35
Speaker
where the book could go, like what direction they'd want to take it in, the things that they loved about it, the things that they think could be improved was just like so cool and yeah, really valuable as well as just being very sort of, yeah, surreal.
00:21:51
Speaker
Having people, yeah, just like people saying the names of characters and being like, oh my God, these people know who these made up things are.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yeah, that was really fun.
00:22:03
Speaker
You know what's so funny is that
00:22:06
Speaker
I've heard that description many times from debut authors of this.
00:22:11
Speaker
It's just amazing to speak to someone who's talking about my characters as if they're as real to them as they are to me, these made up characters and places and stuff.
00:22:21
Speaker
And it's funny that you, as someone who has worked in the industry for such a long time as an editor, and you've done all that stuff from the other side, but you were nervous to send it to agents.
00:22:34
Speaker
you weren't sure how they were going to respond to it.
00:22:36
Speaker
You were still excited when the publishers were interested.
00:22:39
Speaker
It's funny that you still have all that kind of joy and stuff from it.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think it's different when it's you, isn't it?
00:22:47
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:22:49
Speaker
I will say, I think there was something funny about when I was speaking to the editors who were interested.
00:22:55
Speaker
I think I did have a bit of a like, something at the back of my brain was being like, taking tips from them.
00:23:01
Speaker
about like how to do a good pitch and like noticing what it was that like convinced me you know the things that were really appealing and being like oh they did you know they sent this kind of email oh I must do that in the future so yeah it was it was a good sort of insider thing to do as well that's great yeah I mean I've spoken to a couple of editors on the show and it's uh
00:23:26
Speaker
often when, because a lot of editors also write their own novels and a lot of them have said being edited by someone else was kind of weird and hard, but also taught them so much as an editor about not just like the editing process itself, but also how to speak to the author and things like that.
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:49
Speaker
I mean, I just, you know,
00:23:51
Speaker
it's part of what I love about sort of working in a creative industry, I think is that feeling that there are these other people who have great ideas.
00:23:59
Speaker
And, um, when, of course, when it's like your own ideas, um, there's going to be sort of like different complications there about how you respond to it.
00:24:08
Speaker
Um, but, uh, yeah, it's always just like, um,
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah, just really exciting to sort of be reminded that you're working with people who you think are cool and who have like creative brains.
00:24:23
Speaker
That's always just a real kind of pleasure and privilege of the role.
00:24:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:28
Speaker
And everyone's an individual and has, like you were saying, they all had, every editor has their own take, their own spin on sort of the direction that they want it to go.
00:24:38
Speaker
And that goes back to
00:24:39
Speaker
what you mentioned earlier about how editors sometimes get a bad rep because people just see them as the person that sort of dismantles and sort of manhandles your beautiful creation.
00:24:50
Speaker
But I found this when I first sort of tried to get involved with publishing and things like that.
00:24:57
Speaker
I think agents have a similar thing for would-be writers where you don't see the person, you just see agent, agent, agent.
00:25:06
Speaker
And then if you don't see the individual personalities and the way that each of these agents sort of interacts with people and books, you sort of think of them as just gatekeepers.
00:25:17
Speaker
And I guess it's the same for editors, but you have to appreciate that every editor is different.
00:25:21
Speaker
Everyone has their own quirks, things they like, ways they operate, and they're all just trying to do their best.
00:25:27
Speaker
Yeah, completely, like in any job.
00:25:29
Speaker
And, you know, and sometimes you will get lucky and sometimes you'll get unlucky that actually there'll be someone who, for whatever reason, has like a different kind of approach.
00:25:37
Speaker
But I think it's helpful to be like if someone bought your book, it's probably because it resonated with them and because they, you know,
00:25:46
Speaker
it's really difficult as an editor to acquire something.
00:25:50
Speaker
Um, there is a huge amount of like work that happens internally in order to kind of make your case for why you should, you know, spend money on this book and spend a lot of time on this book.
00:26:01
Speaker
And so, um,
00:26:03
Speaker
I don't know.
00:26:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:03
Speaker
I think if writers sort of remember that like, this is someone is like another human being is
Market Positioning of 'Double Booked'
00:26:11
Speaker
like putting a huge amount of themselves into this book because they love it.
00:26:14
Speaker
And because they see real potential in it, hopefully that helps to,
00:26:18
Speaker
sort of view that editorial process as people who are like all trying to get the same thing, which is to try and get your book to the best point it can be.
00:26:27
Speaker
And yeah, I think... And just put it out into the world.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah, 100%.
00:26:35
Speaker
And yeah, I think viewing it as like...
00:26:38
Speaker
it's a helpful reminder that art is completely subjective.
00:26:42
Speaker
And so, yes, you might have like 10 people giving you feedback and each one of them might say something different.
00:26:49
Speaker
But what's helpful is to see what they are saying that is the same.
00:26:54
Speaker
And to, you know, recognize that, you know, your favorite book has got a variety of reviews on Goodreads.
00:27:03
Speaker
And if you can look at your favorite book and people are giving it one star reviews,
00:27:07
Speaker
you know, it sort of, I think, helps to not take things as personally.
00:27:11
Speaker
I mean, I'm giving this advice out and obviously I don't, you know, take it myself.
00:27:15
Speaker
But I think, you know, if you remember that actually these things are subjective and that is a blessing and a curse, you know, because it means that if actually someone gives you feedback that you don't agree with, if you can...
00:27:26
Speaker
If you can take that feedback in good faith and to go, oh, right, I see what you're saying and this is the reason why I don't agree, that is going to be so much more helpful for everyone than just assuming that people have your worst intentions at heart.
00:27:41
Speaker
It makes no sense to think of an editor as wanting the worst for your book.
00:27:47
Speaker
But that doesn't mean it's not difficult.
00:27:49
Speaker
I think when it comes to agents, editors, for writers, the most important thing is about finding the right match.
00:27:59
Speaker
Find the right match for the writing, for the author, for the editor.
00:28:03
Speaker
You all need to be on the same wavelength because if you go into a contract with an agent or an editor or whatever it may be, even the publisher, the writer publisher, and
00:28:13
Speaker
you're at odds through the entire thing it's not going to bode well i think for the production of the whatever the project is yeah and i think you know i guess it's probably just you know general life advice but i feel like if you can try to get to the heart you know if there is sort of a conflict for it on whatever scale to try and understand why it is that the other person is sort of saying that um
00:28:36
Speaker
whether it's, for example, that actually they're coming at it from a kind of commercial point of view and you're coming at it from a different kind of point of view.
00:28:42
Speaker
That I think is helpful for them being able to actually find whether a middle ground is helpful or whether actually, you know, you might change your mind about what the right thing to do is.
00:28:51
Speaker
Um,
00:28:52
Speaker
Certainly something that was interesting with Double Booked is there aren't really very many bisexual rom-coms out there.
00:28:59
Speaker
And so there was a sort of, I guess, a bit of a feeling of people having different ideas about where it would go in the market.
00:29:05
Speaker
So for some people viewing it as much more commercial and for some people viewing it as, I guess, more upmarket.
00:29:12
Speaker
And similarly, some people being like, I'd market this very much as a romcom.
00:29:16
Speaker
And some people saying, actually, it's, you know, we wouldn't be marketing it as a romcom.
00:29:20
Speaker
We'd be marketing it as a coming of age story or, you know.
00:29:23
Speaker
And I think remembering that packaging and sort of thinking about how to publish a novel is a huge part of the editor's job.
00:29:31
Speaker
and the agent's job and it's always going to be difficult because I think when you're a writer you sort of have this feeling almost of like that infinite potential of what your book could end up sort of looking like in you know you don't really I don't know I certainly didn't have this very maybe this was silly of me being an editor but I didn't really sort of think about oh what's the cover going to look like what's this you know until it kind of happens yeah and
00:29:56
Speaker
I think that's sort of another important part of making that if you are, you know, in that position where you're sort of deciding between publishers or deciding whether to accept an offer or whatever it is.
00:30:06
Speaker
Um,
00:30:08
Speaker
I think trying to get in touch with what it is that you value about it as well, whether it's, you know, actually, I'm going to go with someone who is maybe has got a smaller budget, but I really feel like they understand, you know, the sort of meaning of it in a different way or, you know, whatever, whatever it is that you view as your kind of,
00:30:29
Speaker
value
Personalized Submissions & Book Cover
00:30:30
Speaker
system with it.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely agree.
00:30:32
Speaker
Great advice.
00:30:32
Speaker
Great advice, I think, throughout life, as you said.
00:30:36
Speaker
Same approach with agents.
00:30:38
Speaker
I've found where, you know, if you're lucky enough to have multiple agents wanting to represent you,
00:30:45
Speaker
There's arguments to be made for, let's say you had an older experienced agent who had been doing this for years and years.
00:30:52
Speaker
Obviously there's so much weight behind that.
00:30:54
Speaker
But at the same time, I think there's a great argument for a new agent who's just starting to build that list because you know that they're going to fight nonstop for everything that you do and things like that.
00:31:04
Speaker
Definitely.
00:31:06
Speaker
And don't underestimate the sort of ambition as well of the people at the beginnings of their careers.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:11
Speaker
The moral of the story is be open to everyone, listen to everyone and try and figure out what everyone is offering.
00:31:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:18
Speaker
And I also think that it comes before that as well, when you're thinking about who to send your book out to in the first place that, I mean, obviously the kind of classic advice of, you know, don't send it out to an agent who doesn't represent books like yours.
00:31:31
Speaker
It's just a waste of time for everyone.
00:31:33
Speaker
But I think that, you know, if you, if you have the best, um,
00:31:39
Speaker
I guess, optimism for your book and where it would sort of fly, where it would sort of grow the best, then I think it is easier to sort of narrow down.
00:31:53
Speaker
And again, I'm sort of giving this advice out having not followed it myself.
00:31:57
Speaker
It sort of worked out well for me and my agent's great.
00:32:00
Speaker
But I think that I guess my advice to writers who are at that point of maybe, you know, being about to, you know, send out,
00:32:09
Speaker
to agents is I guess to sort of try and be a bit creepy about it and sort of look up the agents see if you kind of feel like you would resonate with this person look at the books that they publish you know see if they're on Twitter do you feel like they are championing other people's books in the way that you hope they'll champion yours you know do you really admire the people who they represent and I think don't you know
00:32:37
Speaker
it's not going to be helpful to send it out to someone who you don't sort of, uh, have any connection with at all.
00:32:44
Speaker
Um, so yeah, I think you can sort of self-select, uh, as early a stage as possible.
00:32:50
Speaker
And that will mean that when you are then choosing between people, you're sort of, you know, an abundance of riches, I guess.
00:32:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:32:56
Speaker
I think generally people have much more success when they have done the research and sent their submission to a small group of agents versus just the carpet bombing of send mass emails to everybody.
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker
And I think you can tell, you know, when you get that email in, you know, as I've seen it where, you know, you can tell if it's a sort of template email or if it is, you know, directed at you for a reason.
00:33:23
Speaker
So yeah, it doesn't...
00:33:26
Speaker
It helps feel excited about sending it out as well, I think, if you sort of feel like, oh my God, imagine if this agent loves me.
00:33:36
Speaker
That's it.
00:33:37
Speaker
That's it.
00:33:37
Speaker
Well, I mean, you mentioned the cover.
00:33:39
Speaker
I think the cover is brilliant.
00:33:41
Speaker
I love the split.
00:33:42
Speaker
I mean, it's nothing to do with me, but yeah.
00:33:45
Speaker
Well, you inspired it.
00:33:46
Speaker
So you can take that.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah, let's do that.
00:33:48
Speaker
You also have a sausage dog on the front.
00:33:50
Speaker
And as someone raised in a Daschen family, it's always a win with me.
00:33:55
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:33:56
Speaker
Yay.
00:33:56
Speaker
What's your sausage dog called?
00:33:58
Speaker
I don't actually have one, but I grew up my whole life.
00:34:01
Speaker
We always had pairs of sausage dogs.
00:34:04
Speaker
And my mum has one.
00:34:06
Speaker
My sister has one.
00:34:07
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:34:08
Speaker
What are their names?
00:34:09
Speaker
I must know.
00:34:10
Speaker
My sister's Basil and Parsley.
00:34:14
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:34:16
Speaker
And my mum's is Muddle.
00:34:18
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
00:34:19
Speaker
So in Double Booked, part of the reason that there's a sausage dog on the cover is because Georgina's mum has a sausage dog called Bunny, which is short for In a Bun.
00:34:34
Speaker
In a Bun.
00:34:36
Speaker
And Georgina's dad, they've always had a sausage dog in the family and the dad used to give them stupid, increasingly stupid names.
00:34:45
Speaker
So yeah, it's really delightful to hear of some real life silly names.
00:34:52
Speaker
There's whole communities of sausage dog owners.
00:34:55
Speaker
It's a rabbit hole.
00:34:56
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:34:57
Speaker
So good.
00:34:58
Speaker
And with that, let's do the final question, which as always is...
00:35:04
Speaker
Lily, if you were stranded on a desert island and could take a single book, which book would it be?
00:35:11
Speaker
Well, as everyone, I've been thinking about this.
00:35:14
Speaker
And obviously, I want to try and sound really smart and clever and cool in my choice.
00:35:19
Speaker
And I also want to sound as if I'm being very original.
00:35:24
Speaker
I feel like
00:35:26
Speaker
Honestly, I feel like I would want to take some kind of self-help book.
00:35:31
Speaker
I would want to take something that's going to help me deal with the situation.
00:35:34
Speaker
And I think that what I would love is some, which I'd need recommendations.
00:35:41
Speaker
I want some kind of like Buddhist book.
00:35:43
Speaker
manual.
00:35:45
Speaker
Ideally, I guess one that's long and one that's really good.
00:35:49
Speaker
And I think I'd want it to be a book that I haven't read before because I'm hoping that it would then provide me with, I guess, the sort of key to enlightenment, which I can then enjoy the island before my death.
00:36:05
Speaker
This sounds like a great hypothetical book that you've created.
00:36:09
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like, is it cheating to say I don't know what the book is?
00:36:13
Speaker
But I'm hoping that maybe the universe would sort of recommend it to me and it would be on the plane when I crash and that would actually be my sort of origin story to enlightenment.
00:36:25
Speaker
I had not envisioned you ending up there in a plane crash, but you've added that little detail.
00:36:30
Speaker
Oh God, yeah.
00:36:31
Speaker
There we go.
00:36:32
Speaker
Clearly just my imagination running wild.
00:36:34
Speaker
I'm doing a whole lost situation on this.
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
00:36:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:37
Speaker
With a great twist where it's purgatory the whole time.
00:36:39
Speaker
Yeah, it was purgatory the whole time.
00:36:42
Speaker
How original.
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:45
Speaker
Sorry, that was no offense to stories that end up being about purgatory.
00:36:48
Speaker
I love that stuff.
00:36:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:51
Speaker
Well, I mean, it sounds amazing.
00:36:52
Speaker
You want a book which you're not sure exists to give you the answer to life, the universe and everything.
00:36:57
Speaker
Is that?
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's about it.
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:59
Speaker
And if not, then I guess, you know, Terry Pratchett.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yes.
00:37:03
Speaker
Terry Pratchett would be mine.
00:37:04
Speaker
Which Terry Pratchett?
00:37:06
Speaker
If I could force you to pick one.
00:37:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:37:07
Speaker
I think it would have to probably be We Free Men.
00:37:12
Speaker
Okay.
00:37:13
Speaker
I love the Tiffany A. King stories.
00:37:16
Speaker
But I also love the Vimes.
00:37:19
Speaker
Oh, this is tricky.
00:37:22
Speaker
I also have never read, what is it, Shepard's Crown, the last one in the Tiffany A. King, because, have you read it?
00:37:29
Speaker
I've not.
00:37:30
Speaker
It was, I think, one of the last ones.
00:37:32
Speaker
I've never read it.
00:37:33
Speaker
that he wrote before he died.
00:37:34
Speaker
And I, I, I sort of, I think there's an introduction about, um, it wasn't really finished, you know, but they, they published it because it was kind of in a kind of near, near publication state.
00:37:44
Speaker
But, um, I think, yeah, rather superstitiously, I've sort of, I've got a copy of it, but I, I've been sort of not reading it because I sort of feel like it would be closure on.
00:37:55
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:37:56
Speaker
It would be like, Oh God.
00:37:57
Speaker
But, um,
00:37:58
Speaker
Um, this is just, I'm, I'm just going on about Terry Pratchett now, but, um, I could go on about Terry Pratchett.
00:38:03
Speaker
For me, it would be Small Gods.
00:38:05
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:38:05
Speaker
A real banger.
00:38:07
Speaker
I only listened to that really recently.
00:38:09
Speaker
I listened to it as an audio book.
00:38:11
Speaker
Oh, how was it?
00:38:12
Speaker
It was a good, good writer.
00:38:13
Speaker
Really good.
00:38:13
Speaker
I actually really, I can't remember his name now.
00:38:15
Speaker
That's bad, isn't it?
00:38:16
Speaker
Maybe I could just Google it now.
00:38:17
Speaker
Terry Pratchett.
00:38:19
Speaker
Audio books.
00:38:22
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:38:23
Speaker
Um,
00:38:25
Speaker
Tony, come on.
00:38:30
Speaker
Tony, yeah, Tony Robinson.
00:38:32
Speaker
Oh, from Blackadder.
00:38:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think he narrates them.
00:38:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:36
Speaker
I think he does almost all of the Pratchett ones, doesn't he?
00:38:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:40
Speaker
He's great.
00:38:41
Speaker
Oh, or maybe it's Nigel.
00:38:43
Speaker
Who's the original one?
00:38:45
Speaker
Oh, Tony Robinson.
00:38:48
Speaker
But I tell you what, before this could go on for hours, I'm going to wrap this up.
00:38:53
Speaker
I hope you'll cut that bit out.
00:38:55
Speaker
But yeah, Terry Pratchett, great.
00:38:58
Speaker
I still have some that I haven't read and I've been deliberately sort of saving them as a treat for whenever I'm in a sort of reading rut or whatever.
00:39:05
Speaker
So I guess, yeah, if I can't have this Buddhist book that doesn't exist, then one of the Terry Pratchett's that I haven't read, that would be really
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:39:13
Speaker
nice.
00:39:13
Speaker
Similar kind of thing, right?
00:39:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:15
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:39:16
Speaker
They're the same thing.
00:39:16
Speaker
Yeah, they definitely teach you how to live a better life.
00:39:19
Speaker
Amazing.
00:39:20
Speaker
Well, thanks so much, Lily, for coming on the show and sharing all of your experience, telling us about the book, Double Booked, which is out now.
00:39:28
Speaker
You can go and get it, telling us about novelry and your experience as an editor.
00:39:31
Speaker
It's been really, really amazing chatting with you.
00:39:33
Speaker
Oh, it's been a pleasure, Jamie.
00:39:34
Speaker
Thank you very much for having me.
00:39:36
Speaker
You are so welcome.
00:39:37
Speaker
And for everyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Lily is doing, you can follow her on Twitter at Lily underscore Linden or on Instagram at Bookie Mookbookface.
00:39:51
Speaker
It was funny when I made it.
00:39:52
Speaker
I think it's still funny.
00:39:53
Speaker
I saw it and I laughed out loud by myself at the computer.
00:39:57
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow us on Twitter at RightAndWrongUK or on Instagram at RightAndWrongPodcast.
00:40:04
Speaker
You can also find us on Facebook.
00:40:06
Speaker
Thanks again to Lily and thanks to everyone listening.
00:40:08
Speaker
We'll catch you in the next episode.
00:40:15
Speaker
Thanks again for supporting the show and we'll see you in the next episode.