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Chief McFee on tape and on the record
60 Plays4 years ago
Chief McFee of the Edmonton Police Service answered the Progress Report's questions (kind of) on defunding the police, secret armoured vehicles, school resource officers and more. We break down his answers with Reakash Walters and Molly Swain.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Progress Report
00:00:02
Speaker
You're listening to The Progress Report on the Harbinger Media Network. We're one of just many excellent left-wing podcasts on Harbinger, and a new episode on the network that I want to recommend is the debut episode of the Offcourt Pod featuring friend of the show Abdul Malik.
Offcourt Pod Recommendation
00:00:17
Speaker
The Offcourt Pod is a show about the history and political economy of sports, and the first episode is on the dunk, how it went from a symbol of resistance for black athletes to a highly commoditized product. You should have a listen, it's really good.
00:00:30
Speaker
And that's just one of the shows you can get at Harbinger where we are building something that's challenging right-wing corporate media dominance from coast to coast. Get access to exclusive shows and other supporter-only content at harbingermedianetwork.com. Now, onto the show.
00:01:01
Speaker
Friends
Guest Introductions
00:01:02
Speaker
and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host Duncan Kinney, and we're recording today here in Amiskwachee, Wisconsin, otherwise known as Edmonton, Alberta, here in Treaty Six territory. Re-joining us today is Raykash Walters. She's a descendant of Jamaican Maroons and a community organizer and articling student. She was part of the group that organized to defund the police, and we're very lucky to have her back. Raykash, welcome back to The Progress Report. Thanks for having me.
00:01:29
Speaker
Also rejoining us is Molly Swain. Molly is a member of Freelance Free Peoples. They are an anti-colonial indigenous led penal abolition group based out of Edmonton, Alberta. That does really good work. Molly, welcome back. Thanks so much.
00:01:48
Speaker
And so we're having you back. We had both of you back on a bunch of times over the summer when kind of the defund the police debate was at its height. And so
Interview Setup with Chief McPhee
00:02:01
Speaker
I thought of you when I had the opportunity to interview Chief McPhee. When I got the email from the Edmonton Police Service Communications person telling me that he was gonna make himself available for year-end interviews, I was like,
00:02:17
Speaker
Okay, I'll sit down with this guy and see what he says when I ask him some questions. It's not very often you get a half hour sit down with the chief of police. His press events are usually highly coordinated productions and the best you might get is a couple of questions in. So we set up the interview and I was as shocked as anyone that they agreed to do it.
00:02:39
Speaker
It has been a big year for the Edmonton Police and just policing in general. I feel like the whole idea of defunding the police was something that was not something that was talked about in polite society. And all of a sudden, we had dozens and dozens of people
00:03:00
Speaker
telling city councilors here in Edmonton that they needed to not only defund the police, but abolish the police. And I feel like it's worth noting that what is possible here has dramatically shifted. And so in regards to the defunding the police, so there was the murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police and the demand for defunding the police went out across the continent, including here in Edmonton.
00:03:25
Speaker
And, uh, and a couple of things happened. Uh, and I think kind of diving into that and a bunch of the other questions that we asked chief McPher are worth, worth kind of re-examining. So, um, again, let's get into this interview and, uh, and let's, uh, I will just kind of play a clip and then I think I will, we'll get your reactions. Um, here is the first clip.
EPS Budget Adjustments
00:03:51
Speaker
Okay, so this has obviously been a big year for activism and organizing around defunding the police, you know, after the murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis cops. We saw this emerge as a demand.
00:04:01
Speaker
that went out across North America. You know, what we saw in Edmonton after, you know, council hearings and debate, weeks of it really, what had originally been budgeted as a 2% increase in the EPS budget for 2021 and 2022 became a 1% increase. And so ultimately the EPS will, saw a $5.5 million decrease in their budget in 2021 and 2022. What was ultimately affected by this reduction in the EPS budget? What did you cut?
00:04:30
Speaker
Well, I mean, it's not so much as we cut as we're on a budget formula. So what we're trying to do is obviously reprioritize how we deal with things. So obviously, that doesn't take into consideration the extra pressures through COVID-19 and many other things. So we've obviously delayed some recruitment classes. We've reduced our overtime, trying to look at things and how we do different, how we reduce demand.
00:04:58
Speaker
uh you know the liquor store challenge is an example of that so we've got a whole bunch of things in relation to compounded we've had a retirement bridge obviously to protect recruiting and to protect our front lines so we don't lose personnel so we've looked at a whole bunch of things and i think the unique thing here that nobody really focuses on is our city is one of the only ones in the country that uh has a as a budget formula or funding formula it's a four-year funding formula that actually
00:05:27
Speaker
I haven't seen it before till I got here. It's actually quite innovative and it actually contains costs on policing, but it also allows the police services to manage the priorities within their budgets. So over the same period of time, we've diverted $28 million of our budget into the front line to work with some of our partners to obviously reduce the demand for policing services.
00:05:52
Speaker
If I can just jump in again, the question was about the budget and specifically, you know, the $5.5 million decrease over those two years, you say nothing was cut, you say reprioritize. Could you be a bit more specific about what was reprioritized? Well, I think I just said we moved $28 million over in relation to, you're in a time where collective bargaining, so there's lots of things that still have to line up in relation to this to meet our goals.
00:06:23
Speaker
there's going to be some things that we have to manage within our funding envelope to actually hit those targets. So yeah, there you go. There's the first clip. Just because you get to sit down with a guy doesn't mean he'll actually kind of answer your question. Yeah. I mean, he didn't say anything.
Critique of McPhee's Responses
00:06:45
Speaker
I feel like there's nothing to respond to here because he didn't offer anything helpful.
00:06:52
Speaker
in response to your question. Yeah. Yeah. And, oh, go ahead, Molly. Oh no, I was just going to say, like, I think, I think there are some sort of interesting things that he's sort of making connections here. He sort of is making connections between the fact that they're having to move money around with now they're doing more preventative work. You know, like he's, he's almost like admitting that, you know, prevention is not necessarily something that was a huge priority for them.
00:07:18
Speaker
Um, but now that they've had to do things like cut overtime, you know, they're, they're looking for ways to save money. And so they see sort of the prevention quote unquote of crime as more of a money saving thing. That's something that was actually their job in the first place. So I thought that was really interesting. Um, and also just, yeah, his, his absolute vagueness, you know, like, you know, you sort of mentioned at the beginning that, you know, you'd rather get the opportunity to have a sit down conversation with this guy and he sort of
00:07:45
Speaker
You know, the UPS put this out as sort of this public call for media to have these interviews and he's either like deeply unprepared or is very prepared to just be as vague as possible about absolutely everything. And touching on your sort of first point, Molly, he also makes a nod there before Duncan sort of cuts him off to ask this question again, basically.
00:08:12
Speaker
He makes a nod to their intention to provide more support for frontline services so that the need for the police is reduced. And I wonder kind of where he would have been going with that because it does seem like he's trying to kind of contort himself and do a bit of a PR spin to make it seem as though the police receiving, I mean, basically the same amount of money is allowing them to
00:08:43
Speaker
be needed less. And that doesn't seem to make sense to me. Yeah, this idea that it's sort of police, almost sort of leading the way and bringing in sort of these community partners and stuff when, you know, as we know, you know, that 1% cut over $5 million. Could you imagine if some of these community orgs had that kind of money, like, you know, it's a 1% decrease in their budget, and they're acting like, you know, they're sort of benevolently, you know, moving these funds around to
00:09:11
Speaker
bring in these community partners as though that's not something that people are demanding and research has been showing is the actual way to do that community support work. Yeah. I mean, I think it's incredible that the budget for the Edmonton Police is so large that $5.5 million essentially like doesn't, based on his answer, just doesn't sound like it was noticed. You know, we shuffled a few things around, whatever, you know, like,
00:09:41
Speaker
It is, it is such a massive, the institution that the funding that this institution receives is simply so enormous that like $5.5 million, just like they just shrug it off. Yeah. It's like truly five, $5.5 million. You know, just the fact that, you know, we had hundreds of people, thousands of people actually, you know, in 2020 in Edmonton demanding, um, like defunding the cops and
00:10:10
Speaker
So the response is $5.5 million sounds like a lot of money, but it's 1% of the budget and it's impacted the operations of the EPS, basically not at all. And so again, it puts them in this position where it allows them to sort of paint themselves as this benevolent force in the city and sort of gloss over the reasons why people were so angry in the first place.
00:10:36
Speaker
Mm hmm. The second clip I think I want to talk about was it was a follow up on this. And it was essentially the the chief's kind of early on in the whole defund the police debate. Chief McPhee made public statements around the fact that, oh, well, if you defund the police, we're going to have to lay off, you know, the good young racialized cops.
Diverse Officer Layoffs Discussion
00:11:01
Speaker
And and here's here's what he had to say.
00:11:05
Speaker
During this whole defund the police debate that was happening in council and across Edmonton, you said, quote, younger officers who tend to be more diverse and attune to modern policing ideas, those would be the ones who would be laid off if the police were defunded in a meaningful way. Do you regret saying that?
00:11:22
Speaker
I didn't say that. First of all, I said those are the ones that we need to protect. If we get to the point where we have to lay people off, it's last in, first out. So those would be the ones that would go. So I want to be very, very clear and I hope that you print it right because you didn't really quote. I was quoting your quote directly. Younger officers who tend to be more diverse and attune to modern policing ideas. That was the quote.
00:11:47
Speaker
No, no, I get that open to modern ideas, but not the ones that are going to be laid off. That's the point that I disagree with. The point is, is in a unionized environment, last in, first out, always the case. Okay, so again, the question was, you don't regret saying that in any way. We're not laying people off. No regrets. No, it's all the union's fault, don't you know?
00:12:16
Speaker
The issue was not the fact that like you have apparently just generations of police that are like explicitly very racist and very sexist and, you know, everything else. The issue is, it's hard when you work. Right. It's just, you know, continued scare tactics and diverting responsibility. We already know that budgets about, are about decision-making, right? So.
00:12:44
Speaker
If the police decide to lay off younger, more diverse officers and invest in two armored vehicles like they did this summer, I know we're going to talk about that a bit more later, then that's kind of all the information we need to know about their priorities, right? And I think this also reminds me of a conversation I believe we had last year about how it's really time for unions to join the call to defund the police and orient themselves towards community needs.
00:13:13
Speaker
grateful to see that some unions are doing that. Like the CUPW, the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, the Ontario Federation of Labor, the Coalition of Black Trade Unionists are just a few of some of the Canadian labor organizations that are joining that call and joining other black liberation groups in conversations about defunding the police. And I really think that that will help to sort of push back on this idea that, oh, well, it's the unions, it's the unions that are
00:13:42
Speaker
preventing us from defunding. It's the unions that are preventing us from doing the right thing. And it's the unions that force us to fire our more diverse racialized recent hires. I think, yeah, we really need to move past that analysis.
00:14:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, at the very least, you know, cops even being able to have them and suggests, or like, you know, gives the impression that police have, you know, solidarity with workers as workers, which we know is just not the case, right? But the cops have the bosses call when they need to break up the picket line, when they need to, you know, bust heads when they need to, you know, continue sort of the power of the bosses, right? So,
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'm really happy to hear Rakesh that there are various labor unions that are coming out against the cops. And I think that that's a really good move on their part. But yeah, it's really interesting sort of seeing or hearing, I guess, the police chief sort of do these almost like linguistic gymnastics. And again, as Rakesh said, like really trying to advocate responsibility for his own police force and also his own words.
00:14:53
Speaker
Like he, again, he's really avoiding your question. He really made it about sort of, you know, pedantic, like quibbling, just, you know, tearing apart your specific words rather than actually getting to the heart of the issue, which was that he basically, yeah, he said he was going to fire like the young racialized cops who, you know, he apparently thinks are going to do a better job, which personally, you know, cops are cops, in my opinion. But, you know, he's just,
00:15:21
Speaker
giving people the opportunity to sort of hear his side of the story, but not actually giving any sort of story, which is strange to me. This is a strange move. For sure. And I mean, it's gaslighting. So sugar warning for anyone who's ever been in an unhealthy dynamic, like he really wasn't engaging with what you were saying at all. And, you know, you're asking questions that community is asking and instead is kind of trying to spin it and deny. So
00:15:51
Speaker
I don't, if we don't have a police chief that's even willing to take responsibility for his own actions, how are we possibly going to trust the police to treat us with more respect and to keep us safe?
00:16:09
Speaker
And you brought it up, Rayakash, the priorities and the armored vehicle that was purchased by the Edmonton Police Service. I had to ask him about the tank, $500,000 armored vehicle that showed up.
00:16:24
Speaker
uh, unannounced until we, uh, confirmed it, um, this fall, the mayor didn't know about it. The city councilors that served on the police commission at the time do not recall voting for this thing. Um, but there was in September, um, you know, fresh and shiny, newly purchased right on the heels of the largest public protest in Edmonton's history ever. I think that was loudly in favor of defunding the police. Uh, here is, uh, that question.
00:16:55
Speaker
I mean, the EPS took possession of a new $500,000 armored vehicle this year, just a month or so after 15,000 people were in the streets demanding that the police be defunded.
Armored Vehicle Purchase Controversy
00:17:05
Speaker
Do you regret not telling the people of Edmonton in advance that the EPS had purchased a new armored vehicle worth half a million dollars? We had this conversation before. It's not a moat. We didn't tell it, and that went through a budget process.
00:17:17
Speaker
There was no secrets in the budget that started in 2017 way before I'm going to quibble with you there. The public had no idea that this was being purchased. The people of Edmonton.
00:17:29
Speaker
I'm not quite following you, the people had no. No one knew that a new $500,000 armored vehicle had been purchased until we broke the story. I think the day that we had it, or a week later, it was actually, we had an open house with it. Yeah, but you didn't tell anyone in advance. This has been a budget thing that had been started in 2017. We didn't know about it until fall 2020.
00:17:54
Speaker
There was an incredible amount of secrecy around the purchase of this new armored vehicle. No one knew about it until we broke the story, Chief. There wasn't secrecy. Then why didn't anyone know about it? Well, the day we got it, it was announced. The decision to do it was in 2017. Then why didn't anyone know about it back in 2017 or 2018? I guess you'd have to ask somebody else that was here, but I wasn't here.
00:18:20
Speaker
Okay, but do you think there should be this amount of secrecy around the purchase of half a million dollar armored vehicles? Things have to go through a budget process. There's procurement rules that have to be followed. The commission approves it. The Edmonton Police Commission, like the city councillors that sit on the Edmonton Police Commission don't even remember approving it.
00:18:43
Speaker
It never made its way into the news. Again, the Edmonton public had no idea that a half million dollar tank was gonna show up in fall 2020. And then it did. Well, first of all, it's not a tank.
00:18:54
Speaker
Second of all, the day we had it, it was shortly thereafter, there was a press media release slash open house that was held. I think I even agreed with you on the fact that going forward, is this something that we should be announcing? Yes. The fact of why it was done wasn't done.
00:19:20
Speaker
you're asking me to answer decisions of somebody else or before why it wasn't put public and I can't do that. You're looking for an answer I can't give you because I don't know. Fair enough. Yeah so that's frustrating. It's also like I find it honestly just about impossible to believe that he is as ignorant as he is acting for this whole interview but like
00:19:47
Speaker
You know, for example, like it was big news when people found out that this was happening right on the heels of, as you said, Duncan, like the biggest protest in M&P's history. And he's had months.
00:20:02
Speaker
is, you know, whoever does his PR has had months to come up with, you know, some kind of narrative, even though it's total bullshit about, you know, what happened, what the narrative really is, what the story behind this was. And he's just not even bothering. You know, he's, again, he's pushing it all back on his predecessor and just washing his hands with the whole thing. Meanwhile, the tank is still there and there are no specifics on, you know, how they might've decided to change
00:20:29
Speaker
how they do announcements for this kind of thing or how they publicize the budget, whatever, right? Like there's a complete just lack of both engagement in this actual interview, but also really seems to be a total lack of investment in actually interacting with the public and engaging with the public. And for a police force that I think at one point last spring or summer said that they were committed to becoming like more quote unquote anti-racist, this is the kind of work that I think it would be
00:20:59
Speaker
really easy to do, really superficial changes to make that I think will go a long way with people and the fact that they're not even committing to bothering to do that says a lot, I think, about how committed they are to some of the other harder changes that people were asking for, which again, brings us back to the fact that cops just need to be abolished. Yeah, there's no real accountability there. And I think something I picked up on was
00:21:29
Speaker
What he was willing to do was admit, OK, well, maybe we should have made the announcement earlier. And I think that there's this real just separation, just lack of understanding that folks are saying, no, we want to be part of these conversations about what safety actually looks like. We're not interested in you making an announcement about what you're going to do with our money. It's strange that the police seem to believe that their responsibility extends just to
00:21:57
Speaker
informing the public about their decisions after they've been made. No collaboration, no accountability for decision making, no consideration of how those decisions affect community members, none of that. It also kind of makes me wonder, in light of the fact that city councilors weren't even necessarily aware of, or maybe they hadn't realized that this purchase had been made, when I think about the decision that was made in Halifax in June of 2020,
00:22:27
Speaker
after we were having these international conversations about defunding the police, they decided, no, we're going to actually cancel the purchase of this armored vehicle. And like Molly said, it's a small superficial decision that you can make that actually goes a long way to the community and say, yes, we're listening to you. And I think this decision shows so much just
00:22:55
Speaker
deaf, blind, not willing to pay attention to the entire campaign that we had been waging for the whole summer. But yeah, I guess it makes me think about the fact that in Nova Scotia, it was the city councilors who decided, you know, no, we're not actually going to purchase this armored vehicle. And so I wonder if the police decided, well, no, we're not even going to allow city council to make that decision for us. We're not going to allow them to stop our
00:23:23
Speaker
our fancy new purchase. And so we're just going to make the decision by it and make an announcement the day of. Yeah, that's a really good comment. I also wonder too, how much of this is just city council, like, again, sort of just thoughtlessly supporting the cops, you know, the cop hands them a budget, you know, and did stack a paper with, you know, and tanks in there somewhere. Right. And they just don't even bother to look, they just, they rubber stamp it every time. Right. They just sign off on it.
00:23:51
Speaker
And I think, you know, when you look at the history of policing, like you have to really not be paying attention, I think, um, you know, even in 2017 to, you know, like thinking about a lot of the, the high profile, um, you know, police misconduct and stuff that's, that's been happening in the city for decades. Right. And so, yeah, I wonder, I wonder how much of it is sort of on the EPS side, really trying to slide things through under the radar and how much of it is city council just, you know, signing off on anything that we signed on.
00:24:22
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Councillor Scott McKean, who was on the police commission at the time, said in a media report to the CBC that he doesn't remember a discussion about the armored vehicle that was held in camera in July, 2017, or exactly what was said when the purchase was approved behind closed doors again in February, 2018. Incredible representation from our downtown counselor who just announced today that he's not running again. So at least a little bit of good news.
00:24:51
Speaker
I mean, anyone who's watched our legislative decision makers in their chambers, you know, I've seen lots of elected folks texting on the phone, sleeping. So maybe, you know, he wasn't paying attention when the conversation happened.
00:25:13
Speaker
But I think to go back to your point, Molly, just how badly he ate it in this part, right? It was just a total failure of preparation and it's a total failure of leadership, to be honest. Like this is not a hard thing to say you're sorry for. Sorry, we didn't tell you about it. Whoops. I'm new here. My bad. Instead, he gets angry at me for pointing out something that's just dramatically obvious that the people of the mayor had no fucking clue that this thing was going to show up and it showed up. You know what I mean?
00:25:48
Speaker
Well, the broader problem here is this police militarization, the fact that they could just buy an armored vehicle, not tell anyone about it. It's part of a broader trend. And when they had their little show and tell with the armored vehicle, they also showed off all of their other toys as well. They showed off their sniper rifles, their carbines,
00:26:09
Speaker
you know, they're less lethal options, they're beanbag guns, they're tasers, that kind of thing, they're laser sights. And I raised a question with the police chief about, you know, the guns, specifically the amount of guns that the EPS has, and we have a FOIP, and we are continuing to work on this story. It's a story in progress, but his answer is going to inform, you know, the story that we eventually write on this. And here's the question in the clip.
EPS Arsenal Necessity Debate
00:26:38
Speaker
The EPS has an armory with nearly 5,400 guns worth more than $3.2 million. That's more than three guns for every sworn officer in Edmonton. Does the Edmonton police need all these guns? Have to look at that because I'm not sure where you got those numbers from, but I'd have to look at that. Those numbers are from the Edmonton Police Service. It's from a FOIP we filed. A FOIP?
00:27:03
Speaker
I'd have to I'd have to look at it have to give you get back to your relation to that. Well, speaks to a larger question like does the Edmonton police service does every one of them need three guns to their name. Does the Edmonton police need $3 million worth of guns in order to do their job.
00:27:22
Speaker
Again, I'll get back to you in relation to the answer on that. I mean, you're obviously looking at a snapshot of time. I don't know if that is guns that are replacement guns. I don't know if that's time in relation to what things that have to be destroyed, because there's a process in relation to guns that are moved out of the system. So I'll get back to you with that. But it's also a broader question.
00:27:49
Speaker
I mean, you're wearing a gun on your hip right now, right? I see. Like, does every single sworn officer at every single time they're on duty require a pistol on their hip that could immediately end someone's life?
00:28:01
Speaker
Well, we're looking at, if the question is, are we looking at other service delivery models with a badge without a gun? Yes, we are. That's something that we've been working on for quite some time. But I don't think that was your question. Your question was, how many guns do we have? The final sentence of all of those statements was, do you believe that the Edmonton Police needs all those guns? That was the question.
00:28:28
Speaker
Well, I would think if we own them, there's a reason why we own them and I'll get back to you with the answer. Okay. So that's a fine example of circular logic here. I'm just going to jump in because I was able to get some further clarification from the media relations person about this.
00:28:46
Speaker
Based on their response and our further correspondence, it's probably not correct to say that there's three guns for every cop in Edmonton. Some of those guns are on the way to being destroyed and are out of service. There's a bit of nuance there, but suffice it to say,
00:29:02
Speaker
The, uh, the Edmonton police services has more than two, probably more than two and a half million dollars worth of guns, several thousand guns, probably around two to two and a half cops, two and two to two and a half gun guns for every sworn officer in the city of Edmonton. And, uh, and, and that's the, uh, the, the kind of like update on that, but, uh, but I'll turn the floor over to, to Molly or Ray cashier. What are your, what are your thoughts? Um, I mean.
00:29:33
Speaker
I don't think the police need guns. I think that one of the things that, again, we're gonna talk about later, so I'm sorry, but this came up for me listening to him, was I was thinking about the UK police and the fact that the UK police are able to do what they do while more than 90% of their police officers don't use guns. And Molly and I this summer were part of a de-escalation training and thinking through what it looks like for folks when they're upset or activated
00:30:02
Speaker
And we were with other community members talking about what it would look like to de-escalate situations of potential violence. We know that often when police come on the scene, especially folks who are exposed to state violence, people become more activated, they become more on edge, and it's more likely that violence will actually happen. So we know that police officers often introduce more violence into situations rather than
00:30:32
Speaker
reducing violence in situations. Molly, I'd love for you to talk a bit more about that de-escalation training and the work that we're doing to try to share that training with other folks. But realistically, yeah, I don't see a need for police to have guns, especially when they're responding to, for example, someone who's having a mental health issue, someone whose cat got stuck in a tree, someone who is
00:30:58
Speaker
in the midst of a dispute with their roommate or Ken, I don't see it. Or even when they're having a press conference with some random journalist. Yeah, I think this idea that he brought up to that they have guns because there must be reasons that they need them, coupled with his assertion that they're
00:31:23
Speaker
looking into batch a badge without a gun initiatives i think is what he calls it right like unarmed cops like again you know i'm not reassured i i'm not convinced that this is a thing you can't you can't hold both of those things at the same time either you have you know two guns per cop you have millions of dollars worth of guns because you need them
00:31:45
Speaker
or you realize that you don't need them, so you're going to be looking into bachelor that again initiatives, right? So which is it, right? I have absolutely no faith that we're going to see a big increase or a sustainable use of this sort of disarming initiative or any sort of programming around this. I just don't see that happening, right? A big part of why I think and how I think COTS budget is they
00:32:14
Speaker
Um, budget to create the need to have big budgets. That makes sense. So they have huge gun budgets in order so that they can buy more guns. And they have that many funds so they can say things like. Oh, we have these guns because we must need them. So should probably get more guns, right? Which.
00:32:30
Speaker
You know, the guns that they presumably, like I'm just assuming here, the guns that they're destroying so they can get new guns in are probably not that old, right? They're not using muskets here or anything, right? Why do they need police, presuming they need to be armed at all, which they don't. Why would Ebony and police need top of the line, brand new armaments? Why do they need a tank? Why do they need sniper rifles? Why do they need such machine guns? They don't, right? But they create this need by having them.
00:33:00
Speaker
So I think that's a huge thing. And again, to go back to what Ray Cash said, this is absolutely, there are hundreds of ways and hundreds of instances every single day where people address conflict without weapons, without needing weapons, without even needing to have weapons on them to give the impression that they could kill you, right? People do it every single day.
00:33:29
Speaker
You know, it doesn't, it doesn't take a lot, right? And this training that we're hoping to, to get out to the public, um, is, it's, you know, gives you a lot of really, really good tools for that. But, you know, we already all use those tools in everyday life too. It's the other thing, right? Like, you know, if I, if I get into an argument with my partner, you know, I'm not going to be calling in somebody who is heavily armed in order to meet that dispute, right? You just work it out. Whereas Ray Cash said, you know, whether it's roommates, whether it's,
00:33:58
Speaker
somebody cutting in line, cutting you in line at the grocery store, whatever it is. We don't need thousands of guns around in the city and people who are drawing them all the time. If we think back to, I think it was a FOIP or some news broke that I haven't been cops. Just a use of force report. We reported on it. They just publish how many times they draw their guns every year. Yeah. That's exactly it. The presence creates
00:34:28
Speaker
The usage, right? It's not need. It's not a need for guns. That's creating. You know, people are perhaps drawing their guns cops using their guns. It's the presence of guns. That creates them being used in these ways. And there are many, many other tools that we can use instead.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah. And when we followed up about the badge without a gun stuff, we didn't get any response, but the Patricia Mojakan, who is going to feature probably later in this episode, she's an EPS media relations person, she said to me, quote, please keep in mind that as per police act regulations, any officer who is uniformed must carry a gun for safety. I really hate the use of this word safety. I just don't understand what
00:35:14
Speaker
how we use it sometimes. What do you mean by safety? Safety for who? Mm-hmm. That is an excellent question. They do mention that the Police Act reform and changes that are happening to the Police Act may allow them to do this badge without a gun stuff in the future. But as of right now, his answer about we're looking into badge without a gun stuff, it doesn't sound like it's possible under the Police Act. It really just doesn't seem like he's actually enthusiastic about it at all.
00:35:43
Speaker
But it truly does not seem committed to this. To me, if it's not a lie, it's an abstraction. I'm also just so disappointed in our state. I think that even in 2019 after the Christchurch mosque attacks, we know that New Zealand police made a decision just about a month after.
00:36:10
Speaker
that they're going to return to policing without guns. So their intention is to ensure that the vast majority of police officers on the streets go back to not carrying a gun. So when we think about places like New Zealand, Norway, Iceland, United Kingdom, all of these places where civilians on the street don't carry defense weapons, accordingly, why do our police officers carry these
00:36:40
Speaker
semi-automatic or Glocks or why did they carry these weapons to turn against us? And not to say that police officers in these other countries don't terrorize marginalized and vulnerable folks. I think there's a lot of damage that pepper spray and those batons can be, you know, they can cause a lot of damage. But when we're talking about the effect that a gun can have on someone's life,
00:37:08
Speaker
I don't see why it's necessary here. Like you mentioned earlier, England, where my grandparents are from, 5% of officers have a license or are able to carry guns around in the course of doing their duty. When you look into the stats, it's not very surprising.
00:37:30
Speaker
Not a lot of people in England and Wales die from being shot by the cops. It's not a very, it's a pretty easy case to make. The final thing that I got into it with the police chief about was about an issue
00:37:48
Speaker
that cropped up a lot this year, and that's the issue of school resource officers. This is
Armed Police in Schools Debate
00:37:53
Speaker
essentially armed police in schools. The Edmonton Public School Board had made a lot of news with this over the year. There was a racist school board trustee who ended up resigning after it was debated. After much debate, the Edmonton Public School Board decided to both review the program and suspend the program while it was being reviewed.
00:38:15
Speaker
And, however, the Edmonton Catholic School Board, their SRO program remains unchanged and is still ongoing. But let us get to the first SRO question. You know, the school resource officers, this came up, you know, Edmonton Public School Board is reviewing their program. Do you believe that armed police should be in junior high and high schools? And that's even if Indigenous and Black students say that armed police in schools make them feel less safe?
00:38:44
Speaker
Well, I mean, again, you're making assumptions. There's been some studies of five o'clock individuals in relation to seeing the benefit of police officers. You're not making the assumption that over half the time they were in track seats. So you're obviously telling one side of a story Duncan, and I don't think you tell both sides of the story. And you know, you're prerogative to go where you want, but I can also tell you there's a stats can study out there right now.
00:39:10
Speaker
to say that if you're going to get marginalized individuals to reduce their contact with the justice system, one of the best ways to do it is to enhance their education, to get them to grade 12, obviously get them into post-secondary to be working. But at the end of the day, the only way that we would want to be doing that is to help them stay out of the justice system, which is the focus of our school liaison program.
00:39:41
Speaker
Again, you keep spinning one side of the story. Please try to tell both sides.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, fair enough. The public school board in Toronto did survey their students. A sizable percentage of them said they felt less safe. They ended up getting rid of the program. That was a study that was done by academics and was pretty rock solid. I don't imagine that we're going to see a significant difference when we survey the students of Edmonton. But fair enough, the Edmonton Public School Board are going to do what they're going to do with regards to the SRO program.
00:40:16
Speaker
Duncan, what do you think on that? What's your opinion on that? What do you mean? Well, I mean, my opinion isn't super relevant. I'm just a journalist. I don't get to decide. We report it out to the public, so I'd like to know what your opinion is on that. Well, I just had a final question I want to get to you. You answer my question. What's my answer to your question? What's your question, Chief? I just asked you, what's your opinion on police officers in schools?
00:40:44
Speaker
I mean, my opinion, again, as someone who has no power to enforce this. No, but you have power to spread what you believe, which is what you're doing. I don't believe there should be cops in schools, chief. Pardon me? I don't believe there should be armed police in schools, especially when black and indigenous students say they don't want cops in schools. And why? What's, what's supporting that other than Toronto, what's supporting that? Like what about the stats can data that says it's different to keep people out of the criminal justice system?
00:41:10
Speaker
I don't understand how having cops in schools keeps children out of the criminal justice system, to be honest. But again, I think Toronto did a great study. I think they showed that there was an effect on students. And I'm going to trust Black and Indigenous students when they say they don't feel safe around armed police in schools. Track suits. It's all about the track suits.
00:41:37
Speaker
There's just, there's so much here. There's just so much, like the, how, how, you know, just this idea. No, like that analytical leap, I don't understand that. What is that, what is that analytical leap between keeping children engaged in their education and police officers in schools? Molly, please tell me.
00:41:56
Speaker
I, I would tell you if I knew very cash, I wish, I wish because it truly boggles my, or, or how does forcing children to interact with cops who have the power to detain them, ticket them, question them without their parents' permission, search their belongings, search their bodies, um, keep them, keep them out of the system. How does, how does that work? How does putting children in the system? You know, basically that they're not at home. Keep them out of the system.
00:42:27
Speaker
And it's truly it's it's incredible. It's an incredible leap. And it's I would like to say it's so disheartening. Oh, sorry, sorry. I would I would actually legitimately like to read the stats can study because of course, you know, like this idea that sort of researchers and statisticians are sort of this objective force is one thing.
00:42:51
Speaker
Uh, but I would really be interested in seeing sort of like the methodology and the parameters of that study, because my guess is, is that it's not saying what he seems to think it's saying. No, I was just getting too eager because I was agreeing with you, um, aggressively. Um, yeah, I agree. I mean, I'd love to see that study. And I'd also, you know, I'm pretty concerned by the way that UPS even describes the SRO program.
00:43:19
Speaker
They describe it that when SROs build relationships with students and staff, they can gain valuable intelligence about any threats to the school community and can investigate and intervene promptly. I don't think it's appropriate for cops to be gaining valuable intelligence about our kids. Why are we okay with our kids being surveyed? They also list one of the things that cops do as deterring incidents
00:43:50
Speaker
of bullying. I don't think bullying is something that's in the criminal code as something we should be targeting for young people. I'm really interested in what we think police are going to do when young folks are in conflict. And actually, we have programming and policies for transformative justice and restorative justice in schools in Alberta.
00:44:20
Speaker
And that's the kind of programming that I want kids to be engaging in. I'd love for kids to be learning, okay, when I'm in a conflict with someone else, here are the diverse ways that I can engage with this person, communicate with them, and hopefully come to a safe solution that works better for me. I don't want kids just learning that they can defer to the state to intervene in their interpersonal challenges. I don't think that's a good way to build skills or resilience or
00:44:50
Speaker
pro-social behavior. Absolutely. One, like 100%. Also this idea that cops are the appropriate people to be intervening on these things when, you know, cops, you know, cops, what cops do is harass people, right? Like, you want to talk about bullying? How could you possibly turn to a cop to teach you how not to bully or how to respond to bullying when that's literally what cops do is just harassing people with impunity, with an absolute lack of accountability.
00:45:18
Speaker
Right? One of the programs that I see that SROs co-facilitate, I guess, is a gender-based violence education course. How could you possibly, possibly think that that's okay when the rates of domestic abuse among cops is so, like, astronomically high? Right? Like, they're criminalizing our children upfront with these programs, and they're being explicit about it.
00:45:44
Speaker
And then they're offering these solutions that are at best just like absolutely hypocritical. And at worst, what it does is it demonstrates to young people, in my opinion, when they see the way that cops can move through their lives and affect the people around them with absolute impunity. And then it's cops sort of teaching them, you know, presumably what are supposed to be sort of like personal and social skills.
00:46:06
Speaker
Like the only way to get away with this stuff is what they're being told is to become a cop, essentially, in my opinion. To me, that's, that's all that this is doing because, you know, we've, you know, as, as much as, uh, you know, they have specific narratives about what the SROs do and why they're there and sort of the PR around it is we know we've talked to students, we have family members that have experienced what SROs actually do in these schools.
00:46:32
Speaker
you know, they're not just your friendly neighborhood tracksuit wearing like pal who gives you high fives, right? Like these kids are being fined, these kids are being criminalized, these kids are being absolutely harassed in trap. And, you know, and Edmonton Public School Board decided to suspend the program for a reason. And, you know, the fact that he's not even, you know, sort of making a nod to the fact that that happened, and, you know, there might even need to be
00:46:58
Speaker
sort of a close examination of what SROs do or, you know, again, any of those sort of superficial surface level sort of reassurances he could give, he's not even bothering, which again is like so interesting, right? Like what are his actual investments and what is his actual sense of responsibility to the people of Edmonton who, you know, came together, you know, in the past year to speak out against this, you know, he's just, he's not, he's not demonstrating any sort of engagement with this.
00:47:26
Speaker
I'm not hearing any reflection, not hearing any legitimate or deep engagement with the issues that folks are raising. I'm not seeing any of it. And unfortunately, we're not going to hear any more of that self-reflection in our final clip where I asked Chief McPhee about
00:47:48
Speaker
the multiple instances of cops involved in very well-known police misconduct or brutality cases being SROs over the past 20 years. So back in September, we broke a story around how there was multiple instances of police who were involved in high-profile police brutality misconduct cases who ended up being SROs.
00:48:11
Speaker
Um, you know, I had a quote from Rob who's a member of the city of Edmonton's community safety and wellbeing task force. You know, he said, quote, it speaks to the purpose of what the SRO program is. What is it designed for? Is it a holding place for bad quote cops? Unquote. That's what it, sorry. That's what it looks like in this case. When was that study? This story came out in September chief. No, no. When was it from though? Was it 15 or 10 years ago?
00:48:37
Speaker
I'd have to go back and look at the details of the story, but I know that there were police officers involved in the sweat box case who are SROs back in the early 2010s, I think 2012, 2013, I'd have to go back and look at the story. 10, 11, 12 years ago. Okay. So do you, you're thinking that the SRO program is around the same as it was 10, 11, 12 years ago.
00:49:01
Speaker
Uh, I mean, that's my question to you. Is it run the same way that it was when bad cops were ending up as SROs? Uh, no, it's not. So is there a blanket, uh, kind of, is there been policy? Is there been any type of follow up? Is there some type of directive from the chief that says no one that has any, um, you know, discreditable conduct on their record is going to be an SRO. There's a screening process for SROs and there's training in relation to those with it.
00:49:28
Speaker
And so that screening process didn't exist back when, you know, Lyle Souter was an SRO after the sweat box case. He was found to have committed discreditable conduct. So you're again asking me something about 11 years ago. I'm trying to tell you what we do now. So.
00:49:45
Speaker
Yeah, but it's again, the people of Edmonton are interested. I mean, students who had these officers as their SROs are interested. You know what I mean? Has there been changes over the last 11 years to actually how the program is delivered? What the focus is? Who we put in there? What decisions we make on people that go in there?
00:50:04
Speaker
What training they have, how they relate to the students, how much they don't wear a gun or they wear a track suit because half the time they wear a track suit. Um, yes, there's been all of those changes, all of them. Well, I mean, we, the people of Edmonton would love to see them like, because when I look at the historical record, it seemed like it was a holding place for bad cops. If that's changed, well, let us know about it multiple times. I just don't want to report it out.
00:50:31
Speaker
It's been reported out multiple times. Well, I mean, if there was a structural change in how the SRO program recruits cops based on all of these bad cops that ended up as SROs, let me know about it. Send me the memo. We'll send you the up-to-date policy in relation to how SROs are chosen and what the program is about, and then you can see it from there. All right. I appreciate it.
00:51:01
Speaker
Thanks, Steve. Thanks, Duncan. You have a great Christmas. You too. Merry Christmas. So they did end up sending me some further documentation and what they sent me was, uh, an Edmonton public school board document that was essentially a part of their investigation into the debate around the SRO review that they're doing.
00:51:29
Speaker
And so there's no actual public facing literature or language that comes directly from the Edmonton Police Service that says, no, you can't be an SRO if you have a disciplinary record. And even in the documentation that they sent me, they just said that they are screened, that there is a robust selection process in place for officers.
00:51:56
Speaker
An advantage is awarded to officers with certified EPS training or external police training, which is specifically relevant and beneficial to the SRO position. None of those specific trainings are actually named of what those would be. Officers are required to demonstrate a strong commitment to youth work and community collaborations by providing evidence of recent relevant and repetitive youth engagement, both on and off the job.
00:52:20
Speaker
Candidates with advanced post-secondary education are awarded greater points. They talk about a list of courses that are deemed to be of high value in the SRO selection process, and those courses include how to use your taser, how to use your carbine, mountain bike course, effective presentations, crisis negotiators course, online fencing and target operator,
00:52:45
Speaker
It's essentially just a laundry list of classes that cops can take and there's nothing specifically about youth or specifically about being an SRO in this list of education, things that they kind of tout as being useful. That's a whole lot of me talking just to say the SRO program has serious problems.
00:53:11
Speaker
So again, I have some nieces who are in school here. And I can definitely say that if I had children and when I'm thinking about my nieces as well, I do not feel reassured at all that any changes have been made. Even just the fact that he can't speak to the specifics, you know, it's in my mind, it is incredibly damning
00:53:37
Speaker
um, that it came out that officers really did seem to be shunted into us or our positions as punishment for misconduct, right? Like that to me is absolutely like horrifying, right? Like that is, that is incredibly serious. Uh, and the fact that he just brushes his off by being like, Oh, that was, you know, this, and so many years ago, and it was my predecessor and we've made changes without either being able to like,
00:54:02
Speaker
even say, you know, that was that was a real mistake the way we used to run things. Here are some of the specific changes that we've made. And, you know, here are some like very, again, basic, superficial, easy to say sort of like guarantees and reassurances like he doesn't even bother. Right. And we're talking about, you know, the people that are supposedly responsible for the safety of our children in these schools. Right.
00:54:27
Speaker
So again, like, you know, I think as, as Raikash has been really sort of saying again and again, right? We don't need these people in these schools. Their schools are better off without cops in them, right? Because, you know, we have teachers who for sure have, have way more and more relevant training on how to deal with interpersonal conflicts among youth. Um, we have the youth themselves that are honestly really great at self-regulating most of the time, right? We have.
00:54:56
Speaker
And also, you know, doing that interpersonal social regulation stuff among each other right in in ways that are much healthier than having somebody who's wearing a tracksuit with a gun strapped to them, apparently, could possibly do right we have.
00:55:10
Speaker
All of these tools already available. And I think the fact that Edmonton Public Schools took the step to suspend the program really demonstrates that they know, you know, that it's not working. They know the way that it continues to be run isn't effective and is harming students. And we definitely know from students themselves that this is what's going on. So the fact that the chief of police who has had this whole year sort of laid out
00:55:35
Speaker
really publicly has access to all of the discourse that's happening, right? Like the people of Edmonton have not been quiet about this. It's not like we've been talking about this behind closed doors. This has all been really public stuff and you can't speak to a single one of the issues that either you raised or that people over the course of the past year have been raising is really concerning. Yeah, I mean, speaking of tracksuits, I just want to point to a couple of points in this document that
00:56:03
Speaker
they shared with you from Edmonton Public Schools. You know, one of the questions is, are SROs armed on school property? And the answer is, EPS advises that since an SRO is a fully-trained sworn police officer, SROs wear the same standard uniform and equipment that any other police officer would wear. So, I mean, I do think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that, well, you know, part of the time they're wearing track suits, what does that mean? What does that look like?
00:56:30
Speaker
because according to your own documentation, they are just kind of strapped and fully ready to be as violent and engage in the same way that a police on the street does. I also just wanted to point to this question that was included here. It says, what is the demographic breakdown for students disciplined or arrested in relation to SRO investigations?
00:56:56
Speaker
And the answer is EPS advises that this information is not available as it is not collected or tracked by the EPS. So I think suggesting, oh well, 11 years ago, how could it possibly be the same? Well, realistically, it doesn't seem like you know or anyone knows because you're not keeping track of it. And maybe you're not keeping track of it because it's not particularly important to you. So I'm just continuing to be disappointed and frankly bored.
00:57:24
Speaker
I'm bored of us continuing to turn back to this state apparatus that continues to show us that they don't care about us. They don't care about our feedback. They don't care about our concerns. And these responses are lackluster. In some cases, they don't seem entirely accurate. And if this institution with such a challenging history
00:57:54
Speaker
is not after this year in a state of deeply, in deep self interrogation. It doesn't really have any use to me. And I think I probably said this on the last program, but realistically, I think it's our responsibility and community to find ways to take care of ourselves without engaging the police. I think they've told us everything we need to know. And I think we know that when someone shows you who they are,
00:58:25
Speaker
You have to believe them the first time. Well, thank you, Rakash. Let's end it there. And as we wrap up the pod, is there a way for our audience to follow along with work that you are doing or any social media accounts that you want to plug? Sure. I mean, I'm a small little plug. I'm working with a group called the Sentencing in Pearl Project, and I'm really
00:58:54
Speaker
excited about the work that these folks are doing. There's something called GLADU reports for folks who are maybe less familiar with the criminal legal system. And these reports provide judges information in sentencing and allows judges to have more information about an accused person and their history, specifically indigenous folks. And there's a new
00:59:22
Speaker
type of way that we're doing that with black accused through cultural reports. And so I'm really excited about what it can look like to take more notice of someone's background when deciding to what extent they hopefully are not actually further engaged with the criminal legal system. And I'm really hoping that this can lead to a bit more decarceration and hopefully steps towards abolition.
00:59:52
Speaker
I think when we're talking about things like defunding the police, when we're talking about things like reducing surveillance and interactions with our criminal legal systems, it's really important to find ways to also turn to the folks who are already criminalized, turn to folks who are already incarcerated and hopefully access more freedom.
01:00:17
Speaker
Very cool. Molly, same question. Anything that people need to know about or things that you can help you out on or follow along with? So Freelines Free Peoples doesn't yet have social media, but we are part of a larger Prairie province abolition coalition called SMAC, which is the Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta Abolition Coalition. So S-M-A-C-A-S-M-A-A-C.
01:00:45
Speaker
So folks can find out more about the work that we do on smack.org and can also find us on Twitter. Right now, we've been working in solidarity with incarcerated organizers in Saskatchewan who have just finished a five-day hunger strike protesting their treatment and conditions in Saskatchewan jails and calling for the resignation of Christine Tell, who is the Minister for Corrections and Justice in Saskatchewan.
01:01:14
Speaker
Um, so, uh, you can find out more about that sort of, uh, through smack.org, um, and, uh, lend your voice and support to those folks doing that work. Well, Molly, Rick, I just want to thank you for coming on the show and, uh, deconstructing these clips with me. I really do appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks Duncan.
01:01:36
Speaker
And that's all for this episode of The Progress Report. Thanks again to Raycash Walters and Molly Swain for coming on the show. There's just a few things I want to remind you of at the end of the show. If you like this podcast, if you want to hear more podcasts like it, there's a really easy thing you can do. It's tell your friends about it. Word of mouth advertising is incredibly important. So share this podcast, talk about this podcast with your friends. If this is an issue that you care about, I feel like our conversations with Molly and Raycash have been really useful. So go back into the archives and listen to those as well.
01:02:07
Speaker
Beyond sharing our podcast, smash that like button, review us on Apple podcasts, those things really help as well. But the thing that helps us out the most is if you're able to donate to us a little bit each month, five, 10, $15, whatever it is, if you like what we do here at this little independent media project, if you want to keep us going, that is how, that is incredibly important to being able to pay our bills and to keep Jim and I with roots over our heads and in groceries.
01:02:35
Speaker
So if you like this podcast, you want to support us, go to theprogressreport.ca slash patrons, put in your credit card and contribute. We would really appreciate it. Also, if you have any notes, thoughts, comments, things you think I need to hear, things you think I messed up on, I'm very easy to reach. You can reach me on Twitter at Duncan Kinney and you can reach me by email at Duncan K at progress, Alberta.ca. Again, I do want you to talk to me about the podcast. I do like talking about it. And if there's something that you brought up or that you heard that you want to bring up, please, please get ahold of me.
01:03:04
Speaker
Finally, thanks so much to Cosmic Famu Communist for our theme, thank you for listening, and goodbye.