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Continuing the Story
142 Plays1 year ago
Brook and Sarah discuss the different ways an author's world is continued after they stop creating it.
We discussSir Arthur Conan Doyle
Sue Grafton
Dorothy L. Sayers
Ian Fleming
Anthony Horowitz
Lee Child
Andrew Child
Agatha Christie
Sophie Hannah
Moneypenny Diaries series by Samantha Weinberg
Young Bond series by Charlie Higson
Enola Holmes series by Nancy Springer
Sherlock Holmes Bookshop Mysteries by Vicki Delany
The Lady Sherlock Series by Sherry Thomas
Nancy Drew series by Carolyn Keene
Hardy Boys series Franklin W. Dixon
Blind Love (1890) Wilkie Collins
Carolyn Keene
Franklin W. Dixon
Death on the Nile (2022 film)
Referenceshttps://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/tip-sheet/article/63973-how-i-wrote-a-new-agatha-christie-mystery.html
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Music: Signs To Nowhere by Shane Ivers - www.silvermansound.com
Transcript
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Transcript
Introductions & Thanksgiving Greetings
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi Brooke. Hi Sarah, how are you doing today? I'm good, thank you, and how are you?
00:00:26
Speaker
I'm great. I wanted to wish you a happy Thanksgiving because I believe you're celebrating this weekend in Canada. Is that right? That is right. Yeah, it's our Thanksgiving. We have it a little earlier than you do in the US. I think it's because our growing season is shorter. Although this year around here, it still feels like August, but it's one of my favorite holidays because we just get together and eat.
00:00:52
Speaker
Mine too, but I do have to wait almost another month to get to celebrate, so I'm a little jealous. Well, you know, you could always have a piece of pumpkin pie this weekend and think about your Canadian friends having their Thanksgiving.
00:01:06
Speaker
I'm going to do that. Great idea.
What Happens to Stories When Authors Die?
00:01:11
Speaker
So today we are going to talk about continuing the story, which I'm really looking forward to talking about with you. So I'll just give a brief overview and then we can get started.
00:01:27
Speaker
So what happens when an author dies? In most cases, the characters and the worlds that they've created are also effectively dead, or perhaps more accurately, they cease to be developed any further. But there are examples, especially when a character or a series is beloved by fans, when the story continues after the original creator stops creating.
00:01:49
Speaker
Before we get too far into this conversation, it's worth defining a few terms.
Understanding Story Continuation Terms
00:01:54
Speaker
Canon refers to stories that are from the original author. There's no question that the information that's revealed in those stories belongs in the world they created.
00:02:03
Speaker
Just as an aside, the first usage of canon in a non-biblical sense is in reference to Arthur Conan Doyle's creation, Sherlock Holmes. So while there's no strict definition of what is canon, particularly in other genres, especially thinking about fans of Star Trek and Star Wars debating over which of the continuations of those worlds belong in the official canon,
00:02:30
Speaker
It is helpful to think about the original works as canon, as well as those created with permission or at the request of the rights holders. Pastiche refers to stories that are intentionally in the spirit of the original. The characters, their language, their habits, they're all consistent with the original, but the information that's revealed in those stories isn't necessarily accepted as being fact in the original world.
00:02:53
Speaker
Parody is exaggerating an element generally accepted as belonging to the world, typically for humor. Think the Pink Panther and detective fiction. And finally, fan fiction is an unauthorized expansion of the story, often in unexplored or impossible storylines relative to the original. An example of this might be fan fiction, where a story includes the relationship between two characters who are not romantically connected in the original series.
00:03:18
Speaker
These stories are typically shared amongst fans on fan forums or discussion boards. Even when a continuation is intended to be canon, fans of the original work hold strong opinions. A non-mystery example is the world created by J.R.R. Tolkien. The recently released Rings of Power series is largely extrapolated from his original works. However, any deviations are analyzed and criticized by passionate fans.
Continuing Iconic Characters: Bond & Holmes
00:03:42
Speaker
Continuation is not limited to the screen. Consider the recent release of Marple, new short stories featuring Agatha Christie's Miss Marple, or James Bond, who has continued to exercise his license to kill after Ian Fleming's death thanks to the pens of eight other authors, including Anthony Horowitz.
00:03:58
Speaker
And I'm mentioning Horowitz specifically because not only is he the current author adding to the Bond world, but Horowitz has also written new Sherlock novels commissioned by the Doyle estate. As with those who care deeply about Middle-earth, Sherlock is an example where fans care very deeply and meticulously review every detail to assess how closely the new work aligns with what they believe the original author intended.
00:04:21
Speaker
Which makes me think that anyone who takes on this challenge is incredibly brave, as there is a population of people who are so devoted to a character who you know are going to read the story or novel through a very critical lens. So Brooke, I thought we would start today by talking about authors whose works actually haven't been continued. Are there any characters that you wish there was more of to read?
Should Unfinished Series Remain As They Are?
00:04:47
Speaker
Oh, that's a good question, Sarah. Well, I can think of one of my favorite series of all time. It was the Sue Grafton alphabet series. And Grafton passed away just before she wrote the final book. She wrote up to Y and did not write Z.
00:05:10
Speaker
But I'm actually going to be a little contrary here because I feel like it wouldn't be the same if someone else carried that on. Maybe I'm just as ardent of a fan as some of those other debating fans that you were talking about before because I'm okay with it being unfinished. However, that's an example of something that definitely could have been picked up. In fact,
00:05:37
Speaker
I'm sure she probably had some notes made and the family could have chosen to have that continued and they didn't. What about you? Are there some stories you can think of in that category?
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, I've been reading some of Dorothy L. Sayre's works and I would love to know more about, or I'd love to see Peter Whimsy solving some more crimes. I think, you know, I really like him as a character. So yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing some more of that.
00:06:14
Speaker
Yeah, and that brings up the topic of the fact that it really does have to be authorized when you get to that stage. Grafton's family would have had to authorize that and as the same with the Sayers estate. So yeah, I agree. And I think that it brings up a really interesting point that's been playing on my mind this week is that
00:06:36
Speaker
It would be such an honor to have a fan base that would care this much. I think it's interesting and wonderful that these works of art, these stories are important enough and real to us that we want the story to continue. And I just think it's an amazing thing about literature that there's that demand for it to have the story continue.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, what a legacy to leave behind that not only do people enjoy your stories, they want more of them and they and they care so much about them that, you know, they're creating their own versions or, you know, yeah, I just I agree. I think it would definitely be definitely be an honor.
Passing the Torch: Jack Reacher's Future
00:07:28
Speaker
You were talking about authorization, and I was reading about Lee Child, so he's still alive. But in 2020, he announced that his brother, Andrew, would take over writing the Jack Reacher series.
00:07:49
Speaker
which I think is actually a really clever way of doing it because it allowed them to collaborate, I think on three books, I think the last of their collaborations is coming out later this year. But it allowed them to collaborate before he stepped away. And maybe we'll see more of that in the future where that handover is planned and it happens before the author dies. And I wonder if that
00:08:16
Speaker
having that really intentional takeover quiets some of the potential criticism that fans might voice.
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. I think that you're right. It was a really intentional and cool strategy. And in an interview he gave, he mentioned that his brother Andrew was the perfect person because they have the same childhood. They have the same memories. They share so much DNA that it's going to be the closest possible person to carry on.
00:08:57
Speaker
and hopefully shape the Reacher stories in a similar way that he would. But I like that idea that an author plans that ahead and plans it forward and maybe even chooses the person who they would like to carry on the legacy of their characters.
00:09:15
Speaker
Something you said in the beginning, I felt this way too. I mean, I sit down to write and fear that I won't be able to, you know, do it again when writing my own little series. But the idea of sitting down to try to carry on a series by Agatha Christie or Arthur Conan Doyle, I mean,
00:09:34
Speaker
The pressure just seems unreal and it just goes to show how fantastic Sophie Hannah and Anthony Horowitz or any of these people who have taken on and been commissioned to do that. They are amazing and fantastic authors to be able to do that.
00:09:54
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. And I think it would be such an honor to, you know, to receive that request. But you're right, man, there would be so much pressure. I've been listening to one of Sophie Hannah's continuation of the Poirot mysteries. And, you know, I just think about like how much research
00:10:16
Speaker
I imagine you would have to do such a close read of all of the original works to really get down the things that the character would say or the movements that the character would make or how the character would solve the mystery. It would be
00:10:42
Speaker
I can't imagine. I know I have a great quote from, from Sophie Hannah, uh, because I was thinking the exact same things I started looking into, you know, how did she prepare? And so this is just a little part of a, of an article from publishers weekly, and we can certainly link to it. But she says, when my agent first suggested to me that I ought to write a new Hercule Perot novel for Agatha Christie's publishers.
00:11:07
Speaker
I knew two things straight away that this might be the most exciting creative challenge I could ever undertake and that I would not want to write a continuation novel for any other writer, not even one that I loved." Then she goes on to say that
00:11:23
Speaker
Ironically, it didn't seem like such a stretch for her to do it. And then she said, why didn't it? Why did it feel so natural and possible? I think it's because Agatha Christie's influence is such an integral part of my writerly DNA and always has been. She was my main influence and the writer who made me fall in love with mysteries.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, I just for me, I mean, I love Agatha Christie, but I feel like I would I would have to do so much work to just feel confident enough in sharing whatever I'd written in essentially in her name with the world.
Ghostwriting in Popular Series
00:12:03
Speaker
Right. It's it's hard enough for me to share what I write.
00:12:07
Speaker
under my name. Exactly. And I'm also listening, I've also been listening to one of her continuation Perot novels this week. And I am constantly struck by how well she carries on, like you said, his mannerisms, his dialogue, the way he would interact. Like you could, you could be reading a Christie novel. It's
00:12:35
Speaker
It's uncanny the way she does it. And yeah, it's really fun. Her characterization is great. And if you are an ardent fan and have chosen not to pick up these continuations because you are such a fan of Agatha Christie, I encourage you to give it a try. And I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised at how similar and wonderful the stories are.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I've really enjoyed, this is the second one of hers that I've read and I've enjoyed them both and I'll definitely read the others. And yeah, it doesn't feel like you're reading someone else's attempt at writing like Agatha Christie.
00:13:20
Speaker
We can, I think, do a whole episode on this another time, but I know there are some series, particularly Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys, that were actually written by ghostwriters all writing under the same name. And it would be interesting, I'm sure someone has done kind of an analysis to see if they can pick out
00:13:43
Speaker
whether two stories were ultimately written by the same individual, or if you can tell that it was two different authors, even though they're both using Carolyn Keene or F.W. Dixon as their author names.
00:14:04
Speaker
I think that would be fun, Sarah, to do some comparison. I did think of them in preparation for today as well. And they did have somebody creating the outlines. And so I think that would at least structure them similarly, but still we all have our own, you know, fingerprint as authors. So I think it would be really interesting to see if you can tell that would be a fun, a fun episode to do.
00:14:32
Speaker
And another episode that I think we'll do in future will be about our favorite screen adaptations.
Film Adaptations & Canon Debate
00:14:40
Speaker
But I thought maybe we could just briefly talk about the recent release of Death on the Nile, where there's backstory about Poirot's mustache.
00:14:48
Speaker
And so in Agatha Christie's original works, and even in Sophie Hannah's, there's no backstory that's really given about it. There's reference to it, certainly, because that's a key part of the character. So what we saw in the movie was entirely Kenneth Rana's creation.
00:15:08
Speaker
Although I assume that it was done with permission, I actually didn't look this up, but I wonder if Kristy fans, who are perhaps not quite as passionate or as vocal as Sherlockian fans or Star Trek or Star Wars fans, I don't know if people accept that
00:15:32
Speaker
story that was in Death on the Nile, if they accept that as canon, as the real history behind the mustache. What do you think?
00:15:42
Speaker
You know, I've shared before that I am not one of those people who has read every Christie novel. I am, I enjoy her immensely, but I wouldn't say that I'm one of those, you know, fans that knows each and everything about a series. And it even bugged me. I mean, maybe it's because I'm such a traditionalist at heart that, you know, anything like that, I really want the, um, the traditional and I just really want those.
00:16:12
Speaker
details carried over. And I think that part of why it bothered me was that I felt that Christie was being very intentional of not sharing a backstory for Poirot. Like that was almost a thing about him was that he was this kind of mysterious guy and how did he get so intelligent and how did he become such a good detective? I think I liked that intrigue.
00:16:38
Speaker
And I didn't need it explained away. I don't need to know about that. I liked having that question mark, but what did you feel about it, Sarah? So I'm like you. I haven't yet read all of Agatha Christie's original works, but
00:16:55
Speaker
I actually hadn't given it as much thought. I just kind of accepted Poirot as who he was. I thought the backstory was interesting, but I'm not sure that it adds to him, right? I wonder if Kenneth Branagh's Poirot, by adding that backstory, he provides some
00:17:21
Speaker
opportunity for his Poirot to be a little different than Christie's. And maybe that's what his plan is, right? Like, maybe he's got some grand plans that we just don't know about yet. But yeah, I wasn't quite as bothered by it, but I also didn't think that it was necessary.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, good points. And the fact of the matter is we are to see more of these, if what we hear in the media is correct, we'll see more of these film adaptations. And so in order to bring it into the contemporary age and the tastes of an audience, you know, maybe he has a master plan, like you said.
Expanding Universes: The Bond Franchise
00:18:08
Speaker
So I think there's been, particularly with James Bond, some, and actually you see this with Sherlock as well, but I think the Fleming estate actually commissioned some expansion of the Bond world through adjacent characters or by looking at Bond's past. So I think there's a series, a young Bond series. I haven't read it.
00:18:32
Speaker
And then there's also a few books under a series called the Moneypenny Diaries. And again, I haven't read those, but just providing some additional back history and some additional insight into the Bond character in the Bond world.
00:18:51
Speaker
And I think that, you know, to be asked to do that may feel like a little less pressure than if you were asked to continue that original series. But and we see that, I think, with Sherlock, but it's not necessarily
00:19:09
Speaker
been sanctioned by the Doyle estate, right? And I think some of the difference is that most of the Sherlock stories are out of copyright. And so, you know, anyone can create something related to that character without needing to have the permission of the estate. So I know there was some trouble that Nancy Springer and Netflix got into with the Enola Holmes
00:19:38
Speaker
film that came out a couple of years ago, you know, there's a Sherlock series or a lady Sherlock series where rather than being a male, it's a female named Charlotte Holmes, who's the detective. And she's created this myth of Sherlock being her brother, but it's actually her doing the investigating.
00:20:02
Speaker
that's an interesting way to kind of incorporate Sherlock themes into a story without actually having him be there. Right.
Pastiche in Modern Adaptations
00:20:13
Speaker
I enjoyed your definitions at the beginning. And so in thinking about something like Lady Sherlock or the Enola Holmes, do they fall into the category of pastiche?
00:20:28
Speaker
I think so. Yeah. And I, you know, we spoke with Vicki Delaney earlier this year, right? And, and her series is set in modern day, right? So there's a character who has very Sherlockian traits, but, uh, and there's, you know, in her, in her bookshop there are, you know, she talked about the Easter eggs that she puts in, um, for true Sherlockian fans. Um,
00:20:56
Speaker
So and I think hers would be considered pastiche as well, rather than I mean, obviously, something said in modern day can't be considered canon because that's not the original was that
00:21:11
Speaker
And I think that's a good point. That seems less daunting to carry on the themes and the ideas and maybe even some of the characters in spinoff ways rather than trying to write additional canon material. Yeah, totally.
Wilkie Collins' 'Blind Love' Story Continuation
00:21:33
Speaker
In our preparation this week I came across a very touching story I thought where Wilkie Collins actually had a novel in progress called Blind Love and on his deathbed he asked his friend Walter Besant if he would finish the novel for him.
00:21:53
Speaker
and I just found it incredibly touching. It was so important to the author that the book get finished and then to be the friend, to be asked to finish it. I just thought it was a wonderful story and I will have to pick up Blind Love sometime because I do like Wilkie Collins.
00:22:14
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's that's a really nice story, Brooke. And yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we've talked about some some high profile authors where their stories have been continued. But, you know, I think there's there's other examples where a novel has been finished when the author has died unexpectedly. And and perhaps the series continued by that, you know, by the person who who finished the the original. And yeah, like, I actually think that's a really
00:22:44
Speaker
That's a really nice thing. It is. It would be such an honor. So thanks, Brooke. I think this was a really great conversation to talk about continuation. And I think there's definitely more that we can talk about in future episodes related to this.
Conclusion & Tease for Future Episodes
00:23:00
Speaker
Definitely. Yes. Thank you, Sarah. This was a lot of fun. And thank you all for listening today on Clued in Mystery. I'm Brooke.
00:23:08
Speaker
And I'm Sarah, and we both love mystery. Clued in Mystery is produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers at silvermansound.com. Visit us online at cluedinmystery.com or social media at Clued in Mystery. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or telling your friends.