Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
White Collar Crime (part 2): Interview with Jakob Kerr
152 Plays11 days ago
On today's episode, Brook and Sarah are joined by Jakob Kerr, author of Dead Money (2025) to discuss white collar crime and its place in mystery.
Discussed and mentioned
Dead Money (2025) Jakob Kerr
Michael Clayton (2007 film)
Shudder Island (2003) Dennis Lehane
Sharp Objects (2006) Gillian Flynn
About Jakob Kerr
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jakob_kerr/
For more information
Instagram: @cluedinmystery
Contact us: hello@cluedinmystery.com
Music: Signs To Nowhere by Shane Ivers – www.silvermansound.com
Sign up for our newsletter: https://cluedinmystery.com/clued-in-chronicle/
Join the Clued in Cartel for as little as $12 USD/year: https://cluedinmystery.com/clued-in-cartel/
For a full episode transcript, visit https://cluedinmystery.com/white-collar-crime-interview-with-jakob-kerr/
Recommended
![[re-release] Dorothy L. Sayers image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/61e1c276e3ec42007857cff9/0c9f0c0f-65b5-423a-a129-9414d2b8819e.jpg)
![[Re-release] Christie's Characters: Harley Quin image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/61e1c276e3ec42007857cff9/19b66ded-f629-44f5-8280-f8a4afd4697c.jpg)
![[Re-release] Magic and Mystery with Tom Mead image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/61e1c276e3ec42007857cff9/bf587b93-b2a8-41f6-af97-4772e2c0caa2.jpg)
![[Re-release] Celebrity Authors image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/61e1c276e3ec42007857cff9/6bf85c27-5b4b-472c-9f00-1aceb11c14f7.jpg)
Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke. And we both love mystery. hi Brooke. Hi,
Jacob Kerr's Diverse Career
00:00:21
Speaker
Sarah. We are very lucky today to have an interview episode with Jacob Kerr. And Jacob is a writer and the author of Dead Money.
00:00:29
Speaker
In addition to his work as an author, he is a lawyer and communications executive in San Francisco's tech industry. He was one of the first employees at Airbnb and spent a decade shepherding the company from tiny startup to global phenomenon.
00:00:46
Speaker
Jacob has also been a bartender, sports writer, and for one disastrous afternoon, the driver of an ice cream truck. After 15 years in San Francisco, he recently returned to his native Pacific Northwest, where he now lives with his wife and children.
00:01:02
Speaker
Welcome, Jacob. hi there. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much
Interest in White Collar Crime
00:01:08
Speaker
for coming on. We're really excited to talk to you about your new book and also, you know, white collar crime in general.
00:01:15
Speaker
It's ah one of my favorite topics. Always happy to talk some white collar crime. Excellent. I think white collar crime can be more interesting sometimes than what we think of as traditional mysteries.
00:01:27
Speaker
I agree, it gets a bad rap sometimes. there's not as much you know It's a little bit harder to capture in a story, which I think we'll talk about perhaps, um but i you know the stakes are really high, the the the money figures are super high, ah there's a lot of danger and and violence involved in its own right, so I think it can be fun for mystery.
Influence of Tech Industry on Writing
00:01:49
Speaker
Well, let's start by talking a little bit about how your background at Airbnb and working in Silicon Valley influenced your decision to write a thriller that was set in that world.
00:02:01
Speaker
Sure. and Yeah, I was you know very fortunate to spend over 10 years at Airbnb. I was one of the first employees there. um And my takeaway from my time in the tech industry has been this.
00:02:16
Speaker
Outside of royalty, i don't think any group of people in human history has been treated better than the average tech employee. um You know, my wife works in hospitals and healthcare, and at the end of every day, we'd exchange work stories and it would just reinforce how strange my office was, you know, ah closing down for two weeks during Burning Man and Prosecco and kombucha on tap. And, you know, a lot of the color that's in my book, Dead Money, is just pulled straight out of my real life experience. um You know, a ball pit in the office and massage therapists. And we had a full sized Airstream trailer where you could, you know, do conference calls. Right.
00:02:57
Speaker
So this very kind of larger than life over the top setting. um and there's a lot of sort of There's this kind of like gauzy sheen of optimism in Silicon Valley. you know There's like the cartoony logos and the silly names, and there's glass everywhere, and the California sun beaming down.
00:03:16
Speaker
um But at the same time, there's so much money at stake that all of that sort of optimism is juxtaposed against this undercurrent of optimism.
00:03:26
Speaker
ambition and greed and billions and billions of dollars at stake. And I always just sort of thought in my mind, wow, that could be a really nice tension to play with and an interesting dichotomy in which to set a mystery thriller story. Yeah, that's wonderful. I love the reference to like cartoony, like there there is that feel to it, isn't it?
00:03:51
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And also, I mean, you know, it's just, it's the, it's the shiny logos and the silly names. Um, you know, the, the main company in dead money is called journey J O U R N Y no E because you, you can't spell it normally. That's against the rules.
00:04:09
Speaker
But yeah, I remember when I joined Airbnb very early on, ah you know several of my friends were like, that's the worst name for a company I've ever heard in my life. And it was kind of hard to disagree. i think Airbnb turned out just fine. But um you know it it it does some of the some of the silly names and the logos and stuff contribute to this kind of bubbly feeling that I think sometimes causes people to underestimate the level of power and ambition that you know lurks inside the industry. I think people are gradually becoming a little bit more attuned to that.
00:04:46
Speaker
um But yeah, I always just felt like this is a really nice tension at play. and Yeah. You know, i'd I'd be in meetings where it's just all glass and sun and you have your iced coffee on the table and people are talking about really serious stuff. And in the back of my mind, I would think, wow, this, you know, there's there's a weird tension here. It'd be fun to play with.
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah.
Protagonist Development: Mackenzie Clyde
00:05:08
Speaker
Well, your main character, she's a lawyer. Her name is Mackenzie Clyde and she's tenacious and very complex. Did you have a specific inspiration for her character and how did you approach developing her backstory?
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted Mackenzie to feel like an insider outsider, right? Someone who is very well versed in the tech industry, immersed in it, but who internally still maintains a certain distance or perspective, right?
00:05:40
Speaker
um she doesn't you know she She sees the highest echelons of power and wealth um but she doesn't have access to those things personally, right? She doesn't have the leverage that a lot of the the power players in the Valley do.
00:05:54
Speaker
um So I wanted that to be kind of the protagonist's positioning. And then i really, it was very important to me that As the story went on, and we sort of deepened Mackenzie's backstory so that you could understand what makes her an outsider. And if she isn't you know super fond of many of the tech bros that she's surrounded by, why is she in this industry? What is her backstory that kind of drives her perspective?
00:06:20
Speaker
what ah What has occurred in her life that makes her so ambitious, right? um So that that was kind of my formulation for her. In terms of points of inspiration,
00:06:31
Speaker
I don't think there were any that were sort of top of mind while I was writing her, but I do think, ah you know, a movie like Michael Clayton, where he's kind of this, you know, fixer character who's got sort of ah some depth to his personality.
00:06:46
Speaker
um Those sort of characters kind of, ah you know, weighed in my mind, I think, even if I wasn't thinking about them directly. Well, and and just to build on that, you know, you're talking about some of the darkness in ah the tech industry, and we see some of that through Mackenzie's eyes, right? As an outsider,
00:07:04
Speaker
um some of her ah reactions to some of the some of the things that she sees. Yeah. i think I think Mackenzie reacts to some things in the tech industry the way most normal people would react.
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah. yeah
00:07:21
Speaker
ah So mixing technology and white collar crime with mystery risks coming across as being a little
Balancing Tech Jargon with Storytelling
00:07:29
Speaker
bit boring. There's either info dumps talking down to the reader, or talking way over their heads.
00:07:35
Speaker
How did you avoid this in your book? Because I think you do a great job of of avoiding that. ah Thank you. I really appreciate that. I think what I tried to do was just root everything in the characters, right? Like bring everything down to a human level.
00:07:51
Speaker
And and you know I think it's interesting that most cultural depictions of Silicon Valley, whether it's you know movies or TV shows or books, um I think frequently they kind of stop at the beanbag chairs and the quirky founders walking barefoot around Manhattan. right And it's totally understandable why you would focus on those because they're ridiculous and very entertaining.
00:08:16
Speaker
right um But they're just based on my experience within tech, there are so many more layers to the industry. And there's this silent hierarchy. Mackenzie references it in the book, this kind of silent her hierarchy where money is diffusing everything.
00:08:34
Speaker
And that you know is always sort of front of mind for people as they operate within San Francisco, within the tech industry. I wanted to kind of dive deeper into those layers.
00:08:45
Speaker
um And in terms of making it feel, you know, visceral or still entertaining while you're talking about things like corporate control or, you know, shareholders or who owns a company and who doesn't, I tried to just bring it back down to the personal stakes of each character.
00:09:02
Speaker
And then also really, you know, focus on some of the interesting settings that there are throughout the tech industry beyond just kind of the offices and people on their computers.
00:09:14
Speaker
You're exactly right. Nobody, I mean, there are some movies or shows or books that do a great job of people just operating in the digital world. But I think I wanted to get it, you you know, get McKenzie and the other characters out from behind a screen, put them into some of the crazy places that exist within the industry, right? You know,
00:09:33
Speaker
Courtside at a Warriors game has its own very unique parade of wealth and personality it' streaming in. um Burning Man, as we referenced before, the weird sort of networking intensity of a tech conference, right? That's a very distinctive topic.
00:09:50
Speaker
scent of desperation, in my experience, um a founders home, right? You know, a tech founders house looks a little bit different than the average, you know, rich person's house, right? They they do things in slightly different way.
00:10:05
Speaker
So I tried to kind of root it in some of the entertaining settings, and then, you know, really convey the breadth of characters that exists in the valley as well, right? It's, um because there's so much money in tech, it's this magnet for really ambitious people from all over the world.
00:10:22
Speaker
So you have your hippies, you have your tech bros, you have your type A lawyers, you have your, you know, ah high school dropouts working next to Harvard PhDs shoulder to shoulder on the same project, right?
00:10:36
Speaker
So trying to bring in the range of character as well, I hope would just kind of add some depth and entertainment to, you know, a core so Some core mystery mechanisms that are a little bit heavy on like, you know, oh, financial stuff and and corporate, you know, maneuvering, right?
00:10:53
Speaker
That stuff can be entertaining if it's all channeled through characters that you find compelling and that are, that are you know, interesting.
Tech Colleagues' Reception of the Book
00:11:01
Speaker
Absolutely. i'm I'm curious, Jacob, of what your um tech colleagues thought of the book. like You seem to have a real knack for being able to look at this from the outside and like have a larger perspective. and Did your coworkers and colleagues have that same feel? like Could they see the value in in looking at the industry you know this closely?
00:11:26
Speaker
yeah I think the vast majority of people working in the tech industry understand how ridiculous it can appear, right? You know, most of my really good friends and close colleagues I worked with at Airbnb, we all understood, you know, this is this is not real life in many respects, right? um I think we all understood how fortunate we were to be working within an industry that really treated its employees as well as as it did. Yeah.
00:11:56
Speaker
And also we're able to kind of maintain a healthy perspective from some of the ridiculous over the top stuff that happens. Right. um So the reception to the book within the tech industry has been really positive.
00:12:08
Speaker
I also think there's an element of that, which is everybody just loves to read about themselves. Right. You know, narcissism trumps all. So it's ah that's that's probably a piece of it as well. But um generally speaking, you know I'm sure there are folks out there who have read Dead Money and maybe taken some affront to how I poke fun at the tech industry. But I haven't heard from those people because I don't like talking to those people anyway. And that's
Plotting Twists and Story Theme
00:12:37
Speaker
just kind of how it is. Yeah.
00:12:39
Speaker
We recently recorded an episode about writing twists, and that's something that your novel is being praised for. Can you share a little bit about your process for plotting a twist that audiences love?
00:12:53
Speaker
Sure. and Kind of three thoughts here immediately spring to mind. One is in terms of organizing the twists or plotting them.
00:13:05
Speaker
you know i've I've always heard this term for different styles of writers where there are um gardeners and there are foragers, right? um The gardeners have their plot of land, they decide where everything's gonna go, they put the seeds in and then then they watch it grow.
00:13:19
Speaker
The foragers wander off into the forest and kind of see what they find. um I'm very much a gardener. I think that that's just the way that my brain operates. um I think every writer you know has to take a little bit from each category, but especially for a story with a lot of twists and a lot of layers to it, I felt it was really important to have a robust, solid outline before I started. So I spent a lot of time working on that and you know definitely deviated from it as I got into the story.
00:13:47
Speaker
I think any gardener writer would tell you there are times when you get into the story and you get to the next thing in your outline and you're like, oh, that's terrible. Like, OK, I've got to change that.
00:13:58
Speaker
um So, you know, it's not all preplanned. um I think the second thing I would say is that regardless of how good your twist is or twists are, you need to start with character.
00:14:11
Speaker
um That's something that I've kind of learned the hard way. No matter how amazing a twist is, it'll feel hollow if it's not built on a really deep foundation of character work, right?
00:14:23
Speaker
um So that's that's another thing is, you know you can't really start with the twists. You have to start with character, put them in these settings, see where they go, and then kind of figure out, you know, how to how how the twists might play with it.
00:14:36
Speaker
And then the last thing I would say is i think the best twists, the ones that I have admired the most, um you know, I think some examples are novels like Shutter Island or Sharp Objects.
00:14:50
Speaker
um They don't just change the plot. They really cause the reader to rethink everything that they've just read or really kind of emphasize or change the theme and underlying messages of the story, right?
00:15:05
Speaker
In my mind, the best twists are ones that don't just kind of ah create like a ah right turn in the plot, but they make me rethink what the entire story is about, right?
00:15:16
Speaker
Like, oh, I thought that this book was about X, Y, and Z. And actually it's the whole time under my nose, it's been a story about this instead. um Those to me are always the most fun.
00:15:28
Speaker
Well, I want to say that um I think that you definitely achieved that. And this is one of the first times in a really long time that when I finished the book, I started it again.
00:15:40
Speaker
Because what you did at the end, I was like, oh, now I want to watch that. And... um So, you know, I think you did a fantastic job. And without giving anything away, obviously, I love the scene where um your characters are talking about the nesting dolls, because I think that's a really wonderful metaphor for for plotting and, um you know, what you think it is, but there's layer after layer. So um I just really enjoyed really enjoy Dead Money.
00:16:09
Speaker
Thank you. ah Yeah, I appreciate that. And the the sort of narrative metaphor you just described with the Russian nesting dolls that are kind of hidden inside each other. That's exactly what I was just talking about with sort of, you know, the best twists are ones that kind of show you that there's been another story hiding within the one that you've been reading, right.
00:16:31
Speaker
um And that's, that's sort of what I sought to create with Dead Money. Well, with Dead Money being your debut novel, will you continue to set stories in Silicon Valley or are you planning to tackle a different industry or theme?
Future Writing Plans in the Tech Industry
00:16:47
Speaker
I'm still planning to keep writing about Silicon Valley. I think there's a lot more rich territory to mine there. um You know, one thing I've been thinking about over the last couple years is that I think, you know, movies, books, TV shows, sort of cultural fiction,
00:17:05
Speaker
they tend to follow the money, right, especially within the thriller or mystery genre. Right. So in the 80s, you had it was the peak of Wall Street. Right. And you had all these movies and and books um set within New York, set within Wall Street, set on sort of like this burgeoning financial industry. Right.
00:17:24
Speaker
Then in the ninety s it kind of shifted to big law and you had John Grisham stories and you had these real life ah court cases that were resulting in judgments worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Right.
00:17:37
Speaker
And that's, you know, that's where kind of the money was flowing. I think over the last few decades, the money has shifted into tech. And I think, you know, that's now where the stakes are the highest. That's where the most money is floating around that people can try to grab a piece of.
00:17:53
Speaker
Um, and I think we'll see more stories consequently that are set within that industry. Um, the other sort of compounding factor there for tech in particular is that.
00:18:05
Speaker
People can just fall into money in tech, right? You don't have to sort of work your way up the ladder for 20 years as a, you know, a junior banker who then becomes a partner. Um, you know, people, if they're in the right place at the right time within tech, they can get just get rich really fast, even if they don't deserve it.
00:18:22
Speaker
And I think that that just dials up the intensity. Everybody's sort of aware of that, right? Everybody in tech knows, hey, you know, Maybe my hand isn't the greatest, but if I play my cards right over the next two years, like I could end up in a really good spot, right? There's there's a, i have a chance.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I think that that just dials up the intensity of everything. So I still find the the setting and the atmosphere to be really compelling. And i I hope to write, you know, more stories set within it.
00:18:52
Speaker
That's so great to hear. um and and I think you're right. I think there's probably a lot that can be taken from it. You know, I think about some of the bigger white collar crime stories of the last ah decade, and a lot of them have come out of um Silicon Valley, right?
00:19:11
Speaker
For sure. ah That was one of my inspiration points for Dead Money, honestly, was you know I was working within tech and in the mid 2010s, you had this run of companies and founders that were coming under a lot of scrutiny for how they were operating, whether that was Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes or WeWork or Uber.
00:19:35
Speaker
And the founders of these companies just became you know these really polarizing figures. And I remember thinking to myself, you know I had grown up reading Agatha Christie mysteries and just tons tons and tons of mystery and thriller novels.
00:19:49
Speaker
And I remember thinking to myself, you know, if one of these founders was was murdered, there'd be like a million suspects because they're you know everybody's after them right now. And it was kind of like a light bulb went off in my head. I just realized, wow, you know, that's a good that's a good kind of concept for mystery because ah they're in the spotlight, the stakes are high, and there's a wide range of people who have motivation to to do so you know do something nefarious to them.
00:20:16
Speaker
So um you're absolutely right. And that was that was a sort of jumping off point for some of my ideas for the book. Well, Jacob, thank you so much for joining
Contact Details and Closing Remarks
00:20:24
Speaker
us today. Could you tell our listeners where they can find you online?
00:20:28
Speaker
Sure. My personal website, www.jacobkerr.com. That's J-A-K-O-B-K-E-R-R.com. I'm also on Instagram, Jacob underscore Kerr.
00:20:41
Speaker
um And yeah, you can find my work pretty much every bookstore out there and Goodreads and all of the internet. So yeah, that's where to find me.
00:20:52
Speaker
Wonderful. It's been such a treat to speak to today, Jacob, and I'm looking forward to whatever you release next. Thank you. The pleasure's been mine. I really appreciate the time.
00:21:05
Speaker
And thank you, listeners, for joining us today on Clued in Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery. Clued in Mystery is written and produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen.
00:21:18
Speaker
Music is by Shane Ivers. If you liked what you heard, please consider telling a friend, leaving a ri review, or subscribing with your favorite podcast listening app. Visit our website at cluedinmystery.com to sign up for our newsletter, The Clued in Chronicle, or to join our paid membership, The Clued in Cartel.
00:21:34
Speaker
We're on social media at Clued in Mystery.