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125: Trauma-Informed Coaching with Dr. Vanessa Komarek, PsyD
3 Playsin 2 days
Dr. Vanessa Komarek, PsyD joins Laurel for a conversation about strength training, trauma myths, gymtimidation, training through pregnancy, and what it actually means to be trauma informed as a coach. They talk about how lifting can support mental health, why fear-based messaging can backfire, where coaching ends and therapy begins, and which evidence-based PTSD treatments deserve more attention than social media trauma narratives.
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RESOURCES
Dr. Vanessa Komarek, PsyD
Instagram @HeavyLiftingPychologist
Website www.weightsforwellbeing.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Mission
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Laurel Biebersdorf, strength and conditioning coach. And I'm Dr. Sarah Court, physical therapist. With over 30 years of combined experience in fitness, movement, and physical therapy, we believe in strong opinions loosely held. Which means we're not here to hype outdated movement concepts.
00:00:15
Speaker
or to gatekeep or fearmonger strength training for women. For too long, women have been sidelined in strength training. Oh, you mean handed pink dumbbells and told to sculpt? Whatever that means, we're here to change that with tools, evidence, and ideas that center women's needs and voices.
Meet Vanessa Komarek: A Multi-Faceted Approach
00:00:32
Speaker
Let's dive in.
00:00:47
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Movement Logic Podcast. I'm Laurel Beaversdorf, and today I'm talking with licensed clinical psychologist, strength coach, and powerlifter, Vanessa Komarek.
00:00:57
Speaker
We get into how strength training can support mental health, why fear-based messaging can keep people out of the gym, and some of the biggest myths about trauma and trauma-informed trauma.
00:01:09
Speaker
teaching that can get in teachers ways and also the people they are trying to serve. I think this was a fantastic conversation and I believe it is our first conversation with a psychologist.
Psychological Benefits of Strength Training
00:01:21
Speaker
So without further ado, here's my interview with Vanessa Komarek.
00:01:32
Speaker
All right. I'm here with Vanessa Komarek. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to chatting. Yeah, I'm looking forward to chatting with you as well.
00:01:43
Speaker
We have this kind of parallel path almost where you're in the field of psychology, but you like to lift heavy shit. And you are doing a lot of great myth busting around psychology.
00:01:56
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Some mental health myths and trauma myths and basically just combating a lot of misinformation that gets in people's way and prevents them from being able to do the thing. I've been keeping an eye on your Instagram feed for over a year and I found you through Adam Meekins. He actually shared one of your posts. Yeah. And I was like, oh, a psychologist. Like, I don't follow enough psychologists. And i looked at your grid and i was like, man, she is just speaking my language. This is very exciting. So, Vanessa, enough of me talking. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
00:02:29
Speaker
Sure. yeah as you mentioned, i am a licensed clinical psychologist and i specialize in helping people recover from PTSD after a tru traumatic event. And I also love lifting weights. In my personal life, I'm a power lifter and I'm also a certified personal trainer, a strengths coach. My passion is helping beginners or people who are returning after some time off, helping people start and stick with strengths training in a way that supports their overall mental and physical wellbeing. That is so cool. We're going to talk about that dual path psychology and personal training.
00:03:05
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Let's get right into it. Okay. So we're hearing more and more about the physical benefits of lifting weights. When you specifically look at strength training through a psychological
Strength Training as a Grounding Experience
00:03:17
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lens...
00:03:17
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What stands out to you that people might not know about? Sure. So we have really exciting research showing that there's really two main ways that this works that I want to hit on. Strength training and really aerobic exercises as well. But strength training helps people either reduce the symptoms of mental health disorders that they're already experiencing or helps make it less likely for them to develop later on in life if we are... regularly participating in exercise. that Those associations have been seen in the research with anxiety, depression, and a little bit with PTSD as well. That's really cool that not only is it something that if you're already dealing with some of these struggles, that it can help you manage those symptoms, but also if you're just regularly doing it, it can help proactively make it less likely for you to experience one of those things in
Complexity of Exercise Benefits
00:04:12
Speaker
the long run. which is really neat. Also, even beyond just like symptom reduction, a lot of people experience, especially with strength training, and this is one of the reasons why I love it in my work with survivors of trauma, a lot of people feel an increased sense of confidence in themselves, their bodies, their ability to persist through challenges, and they feel a great sense of empowerment. There's something just really uniquely awesome about lifting really heavy stuff that you probably never thought you'd be able to. One other thing just like uniquely to um the PTSD world is people tend to find lifting really heavy weight to be a very grounding experience. And a lot of what I hear anecdotally and have experienced myself is that the heavier year you go, you tend to be able to think about fewer and fewer things.
00:05:03
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You have a lot of like negative or racing thoughts when you get closer and closer to your one rep max, like all you can think about is just stand up. Or, you know what i mean? And so that's another thing that a lot of people don't necessarily realize, but a cool way that strength training can help.
00:05:18
Speaker
I think just because we're humans and we're curious at baseline, but we love to hear about like, why? What is the mechanism? A lot of times I don't even think we really know exactly why, but can you at all speak to why you think it is that strength training specifically benefits people who are experiencing mental health issues and or why it prevents some people from experiencing mental health ah issues. Like, what is it about it? So I think one of the reasons why we see such robust, profound, positive benefits associated with exercise is because it affects all systems of the body.
00:05:54
Speaker
It affects our cardiovascular system, our our nervous system, our hormones. It just, it affects all systems of our bodies. So I don't think there's
Overcoming Gym Discomfort and Fear
00:06:04
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any one specific mechanism of action. I think there's a whole bunch. And I would actually say be wary of anybody who is confidently saying that they have one mechanism of action because that's oftentimes used to to sell things that don't have as much real world data. but As an aside, so yeah, I think it's just because it affects all of our system.
00:06:24
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There's a lot of hypotheses I can make about how, yeah, things can happen on a biological level, a hormonal level, but also at a psychological level, just with being able to keep practicing something that is challenging.
00:06:41
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on a repeated basis and see the merits of that. There's a lot of parallels between doing that physically and doing that mentally. a lot of strategies that help us support our mental health are pretty simple, basic things, but we have to do them over and over again. and so i don't know, there's a lot of parallels there. And there's there is something else that I wanted to just say, but it has flipped my mind. I've got a newborn and food deprivation. Yeah, know we're going to talk about that too. You just had a baby.
00:07:10
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I want to circle back to the why and just from my anecdotal experience and from what I hear clients express is there is a feeling of being strong. And that feeling comes with lifting weights and getting stronger. This feeling of physical strength can actually, like you said, a biological can change can feed into a way that we see ourselves. Absolutely. We do see there's a very bidirectional, complex, multifaceted relationship between our brains, how we feel and our bodies. And yes, if we get physically stronger, we can feel stronger mentally.
00:07:49
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Also vice versa. You're right. There is a lot there to be said about how it's a multidirectional relationship. And not only feeling stronger, but I think for many people, it's also a feeling of feeling safer. I can handle this. I can handle this current situation in which I'm being physically challenged, but potentially also, and this is conjecture, but potentially also psychologically challenged because I am stronger. Anxiety and also PTSD, they tend to oftentimes have some physiological manifestations. So you might experience increased heart rate. You might experience increased sweating, like your palms are getting sweating. You might have, yeah, your heart racing, pressure in
Training Through Pregnancy: Myths and Benefits
00:08:30
Speaker
your chest, any of those like physiological experiences. And when that's happening in the context of anxiety or PTSD and our brains interpret it as a threat or as something uncomfortable to be avoided, that can end up unintentionally
00:08:45
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holding us back from a lot of important experiences in life. And so strength training is a way of intentionally exposing yourself to those physiological sensations of increased heart rate, of sweating, of your breathing, rapid breathing.
00:09:00
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But it's you're choosing to take that on and it's for a reason that is helpful to your overall health and well-being. And so that's another process that I think could be super powerful about all forms of exercise, but especially strength training is that you are getting a lot of practice experiencing those sensations in a context where you're not actually being threatened.
00:09:21
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And so your brain and your body learns over time, okay, I can experience that and continue to go about my goal-directed behavior. Yeah. What you just said dovetails so nicely into my next question, which is really about discomfort.
00:09:34
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So you're talking about these messages that we're getting from our body that were potentially not safe, right? Like heart racing, palms sweating. i want to shift slightly into this conversation around just any type of experience discomfort.
00:09:48
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discomfort, not necessarily the kind that makes us feel overtly unsafe, but
Cultural Fears and Women's Strength Training
00:09:53
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just a feeling of discomfort. I always think of exercise as this willingness to make ourselves uncomfortable, actually, for the sake of having a greater sense of ease and comfort in our everyday life because we stress our bodies and exercise. That's a little uncomfortable, but then we have a higher tolerance for the stress that we experience in the rest of our life. Many people, I think, have been taught for various reasons to interpret discomfort as danger.
00:10:19
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And you just made a post, I don't know if you made it recently, i was just looking at your grid a little while ago about being in the gym. This post, if I remember correctly, was for people who feel intimidated by the gym, for whom the gym produces a lot of anxiety. Yeah. the Even the idea of going to the gym, I know for many of in our community is like off the table. There's no way I'm going to the gym, not always because of anxiety, but because I just don't see myself there. I don't want to be in a gym for whatever reason. But I think a lot of people have come to interpret discomfort as danger. And I think this is a big barrier to being at the gym. I think the gym can bring up for many women and men, though, too, a lot of feelings of discomfort.
00:11:01
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Can you talk a little bit about how exposure to the gym could be graded in a similar way to what you just mentioned about grading exposure to a higher heart rate, to feelings of bodily stress deliberately through strength training, how someone might recalibrate their relationship to the gym?
00:11:22
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Sure. Yeah. What first came to mind as you were, as you were talking is this quote that discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life.
00:11:32
Speaker
And I think there's a lot of truth to that. I don't know the original person who said it. I've come to hear that from Stephen Hayes in the ACT world. But anyway, so yes, that's very accurate what you're describing. Similar to how we approach graded exposure with exercises, right? Starting with lightweight and experiencing a bit of a win and then building up gradually over time, our capacity increases.
00:11:59
Speaker
The same thing can be true of practicing tolerating discomfort. And so specifically in a gym context, I always just to get started, that's oftentimes the hardest part, like just walking in the first time. A couple of tips that I encourage is if it's overwhelming or for whatever reason you're really having a hard time getting in, a just start off in a place like filling up your water bottle. Like you're just have to look for the place where there's a water fountain. Fill up your water bottle, get the lay of the land, figure out where the first machine you want to use is. You can find maybe the stretching place and that can be another spot where you set up and get your bearings around you. and
00:12:43
Speaker
Building up from there. i also another thing that I really say a lot is if you're not feeling it, try just to go get there and warm up. And then then you can decide to go home if you're really not feeling it once you're there in the gym, actually warming up. Oftentimes, once we do all of those things and we actually get ourselves there, we feel a lot more ready to continue than we're telling ourselves beforehand. So those are a couple of tips.
Empowerment Through Strength Training
00:13:10
Speaker
A workout doesn't have to look like one certain way. It doesn't have to be an hour long or 15 exercises or it's no good. Like you can start with just a couple and do that several times.
00:13:23
Speaker
Feel that sense of efficacy and competency. I can do this. And then sprinkle in a little bit more Push yourself a little bit more. but yeah, just really whatever you can do to get started. You'll learn experientially that either the discomfort isn't as bad as your brain is telling you it's going to be you'll learn okay, it was uncomfortable, but I could still do it. Then I experienced these benefits after the fact. So yeah yeah there's a lot of a lot of good that can come from practicing being uncomfortable.
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah, when I looked at your post, it immediately brought me back to my early days in starting to use the gym. I would go to Planet Fitness in New York City. And I remember where I always wanted to start was on a cardio machine, whether it was the stair stepper or the treadmill, because that was my happy safe space. Yeah.
00:14:15
Speaker
So I would go to the cardio machine of choice and then i would do exactly what you were talking about in the post, which is I would look around the gym. Yep. And I would find, ok there are the dumbbells.
00:14:26
Speaker
There are the Smith machine squat racks. There's the kettlebells and the universal machine. and i would, in my mind, develop a game plan. Exactly. Like when I'm done on the cardio, I'm going to go, cardio machine, I'm going to go over to the dumbbells.
00:14:42
Speaker
And then I'm going to go over. And I think when I walked into the gym in those early days, I felt like everyone was looking at me. I felt like I really stood out and I felt like I wasn't really totally safe.
00:14:54
Speaker
And I think what happens to a lot of people who for whom a gym is a new environment is they step into the gym and they're just they're basically just scanning for danger. They're scanning for all these possible like places where they might be embarrassed or areas where they're not going to know what they're doing.
00:15:11
Speaker
And it it just seems like a minefield. But definitely this like baby steps. Get in the door. Go to your happy, safe space. Develop a game plan. Decide where you're going to go next where you could feel like still quite safe. I know what I'm doing over there. and then you get you gradually get confident.
00:15:29
Speaker
It's a process. And don't be frustrated with yourself for feeling like that process is taking too long for you. i will say i come from a background of like long distance running. So strength training was never like in my wheelhouse. I would say it probably took me like a year or two to feel a like confident in any gym that I walk into.
00:15:52
Speaker
And another thing too is let's also normalize feeling embarrassed or feeling nervous or not knowing like what to do. Like I have been lifting weights for six years, coaching for over three, maybe four. And I still, whenever my gym gets a new machine or I go to a new gym, I'm still like, okay, where does this pin go? Like with every new piece of equipment. So just be that feeling of embarrassment or I don't know how this works. That's okay. Like many of us don't. We can still do it anyway. Be embarrassed and get your lift in. Even the most seasoned lifters don't know what they're doing necessarily. Yeah. It's okay. Normalizing uncertainty, normalizing not knowing. I love that. I love that. Okay. So let's talk about training through pregnancy. You just had a baby.
00:16:40
Speaker
And i loved all your videos of you super pregnant, lifting weights. Thank you. And you had a lot to say about the benefits. But I think still today, even to this day, many people still see lifting while pregnant as risky or even irresponsible. So I was wondering if you could talk about how training through pregnancy has maybe gotten you to be able to see that fear-based messaging a little bit more clearly, more personally. and if you've done any thinking about it, have anything
Trauma-Informed Coaching Approach
00:17:11
Speaker
to say about it. Absolutely. And I've experienced that fearful messaging or just feeling fearful myself in my first pregnancy. The guidance that you're typically given by your doctor is don't pick up anything more than 20 pounds. And when you have a toddler, you're over 20 pounds. You're doing that anyway. Right. So... i
00:17:31
Speaker
for me, i am so appreciative of the recent research that we've had in the last 10 years or so that is starting to help us better answer these questions. See the benefits associated with strength training in pregnancy. See how outcomes are changed.
00:17:48
Speaker
improved and there's very no real associations with the negative outcomes that we're worried about. Again, this is early. The research is early on and it has limitations because it's a special population so we can't do randomized controlled trials yet. But anyway, all that to say in my first pregnancy, I had this arbitrary cap that I put on myself of like in my first trimester, I'm not going to lift anything more than 50% of my one rep max because I've It's just, it was arbitrary. It was an emotional decision that I made. But then i started finding all of the research that we have. And that gave me the confidence to be like, okay, I'm going to go a little bit heavier. i actually, in my first pregnancy, got programming from k Christina Previtt. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her work, but that was, oh, I highly recommend giving her a follow. She has the Barbell app that's all about coaching strength training through pregnancy and
Debunking Trauma Myths
00:18:43
Speaker
postpartum. But she's a researcher in the space and her study and Margie Davenport is another like pioneering researcher, but her study on women who lifted at least 80% of their one rep max through pregnancy That was a pretty big game changer for me. It showed like reduced rates of gestational diabetes, preeclampsia. Birth outcomes were similar to population outcomes that we have. Of course, it wasn't randomized, and you have to take your unique considerations into into play, but that gave me a lot more confidence to just get started. And so yeah, second pregnancy, i really did not feel any of that fear. Instead, I felt much more ah just empowered that I'm doing something healthy for myself, for my baby.
00:19:31
Speaker
And yeah, I'm just super grateful for everybody's work in this space because I think if it was 20 or 30 years ago, would have been a completely different experience. Just to bring mental health back into the mix, some of the research on exercise during pregnancy or early postpartum period is super, super protective against peripartum mood disorders. And that's just another huge reason why it's really important to your individual capacity, of course. Yeah, yeah. And I think that we're coming around as a society, for sure, women who are pregnant should be exercising, they should be starting training, they should be engaging in aerobic exercise and outcomes are much more positive for the woman and the baby when she's engaging in exercise throughout her pregnancy.
Positive Coaching Language
00:20:17
Speaker
I want to go back to this idea of it being dangerous or there being possibly fear-based messaging around women exercising who are pregnant. And just as a thought experiment, like where might this fear be coming from? Where is this fear rooted that kind of advice that would otherwise be given Full-throated to men, 100%.
00:20:41
Speaker
Blessing to men is, well, but for women, especially pregnant women, be careful. and And I see that being such an embedded form of messaging in women's minds, pregnant and not pregnant. and that kind of guides their entire approach to exercise, unfortunately, on a level that for me anecdotally feels like a bigger obstacle than it is for men.
00:21:01
Speaker
Just all the ways we've been told to be careful because we're women various for various reasons. What do you think drives it culturally? I do don't know how confidently I can answer that question. I think from a research standpoint, to give the benefit of the doubt, like a lot of it comes from if it hasn't been proven safe, we don't want to recommend something that, I don't know, there's a lot of waiting around for something to be proven safe before we can do it. I think that's one potential contributor, even though there's a lot of things that we do without relying on that type of proof.
00:21:37
Speaker
and I think that safety is part of the intention, but the effect is so different psychologically on the person who's being fear-mongered, right? So the intention is safety, and I think this is where we have the the friction, right? The intention is I want to keep you safe, but what's the effect psychologically on the person who's being kept safe?
00:21:55
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And so it can be helpful to have an awareness of unique considerations for each population that you're working with. Absolutely. Or a condition that you have.
00:22:06
Speaker
Absolutely. It's a really kind of murky area. How do we balance being in aware and informed with also
Diversity in Strength Training Imagery
00:22:15
Speaker
not seeing ourselves as inherently super fragile and breakable. And that's a difficult tension to hold, but I will say one of my preferences when it comes to coaching and the types of cues that we give to people I hear a lot of trainers, coaches, people telling people, make sure you do X cue to keep your Y body parts safe.
00:22:41
Speaker
And that, again, given with the best of intention, and it could actually be a solid cue, but the idea that our knees have to be perfectly in line with our toes in a squat or else we're going to suffer irreparable harm. That's scary. That heightens the stakes. And if you say, do this so that you're safe, the unspoken part is if you do it wrong, you're unsafe. You are in danger. And that's that can be that can feel scary and be a deterrent.
00:23:12
Speaker
I actually hear that a lot from people that like, I don't want to start strength training because I'm afraid of doing it wrong. And Really, the benefits of doing it imperfectly far outweigh the cost of being sedentary and not doing it at all.
00:23:25
Speaker
It's mostly just load management, appropriate load management, great exposure. like Just start small and build up so that your body has time to adapt and grow stronger. but Yeah. i So sorry, that's one of my soapboxes is please like when giving people feedback, give the cue, but just instead say, see if that's more comfortable for you. See if that's more efficient for you. yeah Give a positive outcome that we're working towards rather than a scary one because like that way it's safer. Yeah, I think that's a really simple way to think about it to give the cue and follow it with a positive outcome that we're working for. Exactly.
Creating Safe Coaching Environments
00:24:04
Speaker
Rather than implying something scary, something dangerous. Yeah.
00:24:10
Speaker
Yeah. Very good. There was one more thought too that I had as you were talking about, oh yeah, how we unintentionally treat certain groups of people as fragile. I hope I don't get canceled for saying this, but sometimes I see this in the world of trauma-informed people.
00:24:29
Speaker
care and coaching. I don't think it's ever anyone's intention, but sometimes when we focus so much on you need to talk to the person at this degree of an angle because that's less threatening. And you need like when we get so specific and maybe overly emphasized appearing non-threatening, sometimes we just can't help but be treating people with little kid gloves. And the reality is people with or without PTSD, people who have experienced trauma, it's a really diverse group of people. And a lot of times you they're everyday people. It's like your son's teacher, your dentist. It's just people going about their lives. And so anyway, some of the key things that are important to me when it comes to trauma-informed coaching are like,
00:25:15
Speaker
empowerment with accurate information and education and emphasizing their autonomy, their voice, their choice. And I build that into the way that I program and the way that I coach. But yeah, sometimes when we overemphasize some of the really small details, I think it can unintentionally treat people as more fragile than they really are.
Seeking Evidence-Based Mental Health Resources
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah. Or if we treat the individual in front of us as a copy of a monolith that we have in our mind. We don't really get to know them enough to know exactly what they're comfortable with and where their boundaries are and what their preferences are. We just go by what all traumatic traumatized people do. And reminds me a little bit of how people who are hypermobile in the movement world are put into a pillow fort yeah in terms of exercise and handed tiny weights and told to keep everything in neutral and healthy. never move their neck or knee or shoulder into this particular position. And it's one thing to know the individual who's hypermobile in front of you and understand what their limitations are as individuals. It's another thing to imply that just because in this, a lot of times what happens is people just see someone who's flexible, assume they're hypermobile, and then immediately start treating them like they're an accident waiting to happen.
00:26:40
Speaker
And so I can see how we've got this supposedly fragile group of people and we just decide that we're going to treat them in a way that almost messages to them that they're not safe, which the opposite is actually what they need.
00:26:56
Speaker
yeah And being able to communicate with that person in a way that helps them feel safer, right, given their challenges, is where the skill is.
Conclusion: Balancing Best Practices and Individual Needs
00:27:05
Speaker
Let's talk about the other side of cueing, right? So empowering language. There's a lot of messaging about how empowering strength training is.
00:27:14
Speaker
And I wonder from your perspective as a psychologist, do you think that strength training, we talked about this at the beginning of our conversation, do you think that strength training is inherently empowering, like inherently empowering for everyone, or does it depend on context?
00:27:29
Speaker
That's a great question. i would have to say the usual psychologist answer of it probably depends. And so like anecdotally, everybody that comes to me for this type of work has a bit of an interest in trying strength training. So just because in my experience, yeah, I can say almost everybody finds it empowering. There's a bit of selection bias going on there. What do you mean by selection bias?
00:27:55
Speaker
The people who say, yes, you're doing trauma-informed strength training, sign me up. I want to try that are probably a little bit more likely to find it empowering. There's a reason why they're intrigued by the idea and they want to give it a chance. This group that is more likely to find it empowering self-selected into trying it, and that's the bias, right? Yeah. Now, with that being said, I want to acknowledge, especially for women, like there's a lot of societal pressure on what our bodies are supposed to look like. And so
00:28:26
Speaker
Now, like body image can certainly come up in strength training, being seen in the gym or yeah just like using your muscles. There's just a lot of areas for some discomfort to pop up. but Even though a lot of people report it to be a very empowering thing, that doesn't mean that it's not without its challenges or that it's not without its moments discomfort.
00:28:49
Speaker
vulnerability or moments of, yeah, like, i this is uncomfortable, and this is new to me. And this is bringing up some maybe negative thoughts about myself. That also is a factor that can happen. So yeah, there's there's definitely i like to think of the number of ways we can engage with strength training is diverse is the number of people on the planet.
00:29:11
Speaker
I'm an idealist sometimes, but I feel like there is at least one way everyone can feel empowered by strength training. But there's so many factors that play into someone's experience of it. Where do they encounter strength training?
00:29:27
Speaker
What does their culture tell them about who does it and who doesn't? I feel like for a long time, and it's thankfully it's changing, the message was that men's strength train Women, not so much. Women do aerobics. And so ah how we see strength training portrayed is going to either leave us feeling empowered or unempowered almost as a prediction. You haven't even done it yet, but you already know, oh, that's not for me. Those people don't look like me. And maybe you encounter it, you actually do it.
00:30:01
Speaker
But where did that happen? Did that happen in a place where you felt safe? Did that happen where you're surrounded by people that looked like you, which can help, I think? Did that happen from a coach who helped you feel safe or helped you feel afraid, it helped you feel capable or left you feeling exhausted and like a failure?
00:30:21
Speaker
Did you get injured, unfortunately, your first time doing it? Did you not really know how to interpret what you were feeling and so you just interpreted it as danger? The muscle soreness the next day, you take that for pain? There's just so many reasons why people will not feel empowered from strength training and decide they don't like it.
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm wondering what you think are some principles, like some principles of helping the most amount of people have the best experience possible. Yeah. With not only strength training, so this is for the coaches who are listening, but just for any type of movement format. I'm talking yoga, I'm talking Pilates.
00:30:56
Speaker
yeah Those formats can turn a lot of people off too, accidentally. Yeah, that's a great question. Something I'm super passionate about. I would say to distill it down to a principle, i would say do whatever you can to talk about, think about, focus on how your exercise is going to be a support to you in moving closer towards some positive outcome rather than a ah punishment or a a way in which you can shrink. Because I think when you're talking about cultural influences and experiences, a lot a lot of us, if we have ever gone to a group strength training class or started working with a trainer or a coach, this is changing, but it's really been the norm that the messaging around it is you got to make up for what you ate last night. or So it's it's very much so this kind of compensation. It's punitive it's or it's trying to shrink. And
00:31:55
Speaker
I think really, yeah whatever you can do to expand instead and focus on how your movement practice is going to be a support to you. with With strength training in particular, we talk a lot about how...
00:32:11
Speaker
empowering it is to notice when it gets easier to carry in every single one of your grocery bags in one trip. and There's so many ways in everyday life that your strength shows up that it can be really cool to notice those and focus on. Yeah, but if I had to distill it down to a principle,
00:32:28
Speaker
That's something that i really try to do a lot of and really focus on. How is this exercise going to be a support to me and help me move closer towards some positive goal that I'm wanting?
00:32:42
Speaker
Yeah, like messaging from the early 2000s was a lot of men getting a massive muscles. That's the way strength training was sold to the target population, which was men.
00:32:55
Speaker
The assumption is women don't want to do this anyway. It's not for women. And then what's the goal? To just be enormous. So then, of course, the takeaway from that for everyone has become, if I strength train, I will become enormous. with ba yeah And then if you go a layer under that, muscle is scary for women because if I put on too much muscle, my body looks bigger and my body is really important how I'm valued in society.
00:33:24
Speaker
Especially when I'm small. And when you go under that, whose whose benefit is that for that women have internalized this message that they should stay small? But layer upon layer, like none of it's true. Right. Yes. Women can build muscle. And in fact, women can build muscle at similar rates as men relative to their starting out. Exactly.
00:33:45
Speaker
muscle mass, which is lower than men because of testosterone. But what's wrong with muscle? What's wrong with putting muscle on your body? Actually, nothing. In fact, it's really good. Health promoting. Right. I think as a coach, like if you're going to talk about changing the body, which is definitely an outcome of strength training, we cannot deny that there is an aesthetic outcome. There's also often an aesthetic goal that people come to strength training with.
00:34:11
Speaker
When we talk about muscle, maybe we can try to move away from the purely aesthetic benefit of it. What are the benefits of having muscle on our body? and i think this is just really important, especially for women, because for men, it's it's a given.
00:34:24
Speaker
Of course, men want muscle on their body. But for women, it's this reprogramming that we're having to engage in Unfortunately, where we have to make muscle something women aren't afraid of, first and foremost, right? and Maybe also want. Yeah. Well, just to name a couple of specifics of what that messaging can look like, like just talking about how awesome it is that this weight that you're lifting is helping to maintain or even potentially promote your bone mineral density and women are at an increased risk of osteoporosis and other things especially as we age sarcopenia like we don't want to lose that muscle mass it's super important and healthy for our function or quality of life for various physical health
00:35:10
Speaker
conditions. So yeah, and that's actually when people start to work with me. I have this handout with, I don't even know, it's I'm always adding to it, maybe 50 different benefits of strength training. And I invite each person to just reflect as an individual, which of these resonate with you? Which of these are most personally meaningful to you? great That when all of the barriers and resistance comes up in life, which we're going to face, you can come back to a very clear vision of what's your why.
00:35:39
Speaker
That's excellent. Yeah. I think, too, because we're both online, what I sometimes find challenging is that so many of the images still online, even though the algorithm is feeding me a lot of older women lifting heavy shit.
00:35:55
Speaker
The image is largely of large men lifting weights. And it's actually it's hard to find if you're using software like Canva and you need some stock footage. When you type in weightlifting, it's mostly images of men. It's mostly images of younger men. OK, if you type in older women's strength training, they'll be holding highlighter colored dumbbells that are three to five pounds. yep And so we just we have a long way to go, i guess is what I'm saying. But I think as coaches who are interested in helping populations that have been underserved by strength training, you have to change the language that you're using so that you reach the population you want to serve. What do they want?
00:36:37
Speaker
Like your handout of 50 things is so brilliant. And also, what do they look like? Who are these people? Let's be the the lighthouse for them so that they can find us. You have to use the right imagery and language to catch them. Otherwise, they will just assume it's not for them. That's actually extremely important. Representation matters. Strength training is for everybody, but we need to see it. and That's a recommendation of trauma-informed gym spaces is to be, this is not unique to trauma though, it's for anybody, but is to make sure that your posters are showing people of all ages, races, disability status, lifting weight.
00:37:15
Speaker
Make sure that if you're a large enough gym and you're hiring people, make sure that you have a diverse team of trainers and coaches so that people can see people that look like them who are strength training. It's not just for one subset of the population, it's for everyone.
00:37:30
Speaker
Thank you. And also, I would say, if you're a gym owner, I don't know that we have a huge contingency of gym owners who listen to this. Make sure you have different size barbells. Don't just have the 45.
00:37:42
Speaker
Have the 22. Have the smaller Olympic, which is the smaller diameter bar, the 35-pound bar for people who have smaller hands potentially or a lower baseline of strength. Have a diversity of equipment that fits different size bodies. Yeah.
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah, cool. All right. So I want to switch over to a slightly different topic, which is that I'm a longtime yoga teacher, now turned strength coach. And a lot of, i think, coaches in general, but I know more of this from the yoga world. A lot of yoga teachers now describe themselves as trauma-informed.
00:38:17
Speaker
They're trauma-informed coaches. From your perspective as a psychologist, When is that term used within scope of practice? Does it ever get used outside of scope of practice? Where should the boundaries be between coaching and teaching and then therapy?
00:38:33
Speaker
Absolutely. As someone who specializes in PTSD, I would say it's probably my hope that everybody who works with people could be trauma-informed. I think that's a wonderful thing. that What that looks like is just being aware of some of the, again, these are just averages, but like being aware of some of the common things that make it harder to exercise or, and then having some ideas of how you can work with that, right? It's just having some knowledge and having some options and really emphasizing the person's an educated, informed choice and autonomy over their body. the The line can be a little bit
00:39:12
Speaker
gray and murky, but in general, I think it's, yeah, it's a huge positive to have people be trauma-informed. Where I can see this getting into some trouble is there's a lot of, again, I think this is very well-intended, but a lot of coaches or Teachers will maybe go the next step into recommending in order to heal your trauma, do X, Y, Z. And this is the stuff that will blow up on social media. A lot of these suggestions are based on interesting mechanistic study on animals, but not based on
00:39:52
Speaker
real world humans with PTSD. And so that's where it can really become a disservice to people is when we're spreading information, even if we have the best of intentions, but telling people to yeah treat their PTSD with certain strategies that or yeah, just outside of their scope of practice. So I oftentimes work with rehab professionals, physical therapists, and something that I'll say is it can be within your scope to screen and support mental health conditions or trauma, but for diagnosing and treating that mental health condition, that would be something to refer to a mental health professional for. And yeah, I'm all for
00:40:35
Speaker
people being trained and educated in supporting people who have experienced trauma, but the treating category should really be left for the mental health professionals who have the appropriate training and expertise.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really clear. I think that the distinction is when you're trauma informed, but you teach some type of movement or coach some type of exercise, you're aware of what might be coming up for the people in the room with you who may be experiencing some mental health challenges.
00:41:06
Speaker
And so that awareness can do what for your coaching, would you say? What does it do for your coaching? It looks like adopting a set of best practices, having options to scale your movements that you're demonstrating. with people having choices with here's our A workout and our B workout, not touching people without their consent, but first explaining ahead of time, hey, I could cue you by putting my hand here on your back in between your shoulder blades. Is that something you're comfortable with or would you rather do it on your own? approaching people from within their field of vision, not sneaking up behind them. These are just some basic practices that once you get the hang of it, it just becomes second nature. And yeah, it just, it serves to enhance your work, I think, overall. But again, you're not trying to treat PTSD. You're just trying to help people. Movement is like something that people can do their on their own for the rest of their lives to help support their mental health. So powerful.
00:42:08
Speaker
So I hope that Yeah, teachers and trainers and coaches take a lot of pride in that they have the honor of doing that, helping people guide them through that movement. But yeah, it it doesn't mean that we need to treat everybody with little kid gloves or that we need to know everything about their story in order to be able to work with them effectively.
00:42:29
Speaker
I've got one more question for you. Sure. So you often push back against trauma myths online, ways people think about trauma that are unhelpful, potentially harmful, especially if they're using that mental model or that belief structure in order to give advice. So my question is, what are some of the biggest trauma myths you've heard?
00:42:52
Speaker
but What's on your short list of big trauma myths? Again, I try to be charitable and hope that it comes from a place of wanting to better understand so that we can better help.
00:43:02
Speaker
It is my hope that is where it comes from. But it oftentimes gets misguided by inaccurate information that aligns with like our own biases.
00:43:14
Speaker
our ah emotions. I don't know. So one that you'll hear a lot is that trauma is stored in the body. You'll see various explanations of where in the body it's stored and how exactly you're supposed to get it out or release it.
00:43:34
Speaker
But Yeah, it's unclear. that There's just so many different stories being told about what that looks like. And I think trauma can affect the body. We can see those, as I mentioned earlier, physiological manifestations of symptoms. And there's also some People with PTSD, that it looks like, are more likely to experience persistent pain across the lifespan. There's definitely relationship there, but to say that trauma becomes physically stored inside the body in a specific structure is one, not accurate. There's no quality evidence to support that being the case. And two, it's super fearful, like, that the worst moment of your life is inside of you causing pain.
00:44:21
Speaker
pain, it's scary. And it's it also further mystifies the body. And I'm just really a proponent of doing whatever we can to demystify the body and help people feel yeah more empowered to know and understand how to care for their body. There's a lot of reasons why those myths are problematic, but yeah I try to be hopeful in that.
00:44:43
Speaker
yeah The reason they're being shared is to try to help. but Yeah, and I think that's true for most of the time. I think that's true. I was practicing yoga from my early 20s onward and was taught in the beginning that emotions, so not trauma, but emotions are stored in my hips.
00:45:03
Speaker
yeah And that when I do hip opening, which is really just hip stretching, probably passive mostly in nature, typically done low to the ground, that's a way to release pain. The trauma, so the body's a container. The trauma is some substance that can be released through a but type of behavior.
00:45:20
Speaker
Now, in this case, it was emotions, but I think trauma and emotions, it's ambiguous. Like sometimes if we're, what are we talking about when we say emotions? Like a lot of times too, you'd be, I would be stretching my hips in like pigeon pose and I would actually start to feel emotional.
00:45:35
Speaker
Sure. I would start to cry depending on the playlist. Or what the teacher was saying. Okay. What's that about? Because I think that was possibly a reason why for a while I thought emotions were stored in my hips. Yeah.
00:45:48
Speaker
was that and when I stretched my hips, the emotions were released in the form of tears. Thank you for saying that. I meant to acknowledge that is, I think, part of why some of these myths can really catch on and gain traction is it's an explanation that seems to fit our perceived experience. So yeah, a lot of people do experience some emotion when they are in certain positions or doing certain movements. A lot of people also can experience if you're foam rolling or doing a certain stretch, like you can actually experience some a relief of tension, right? Like these are real experiences that we have, but then yeah, the narrative that releasing emotion, it's just ah not super it accurate. I don't know for for lack of a better word. Seems very mechanistic. It's like the body is a container.
00:46:39
Speaker
The emotion or the trauma is a substance. I engage in a behavior which opens the container and the substance leaks out. The reality is we're more complex than that as human beings. Is the risk of this myth propagating? Is it that we're just we're saying silly things or is there are there other real harms that can come from Not just this one belief, but beliefs like this about trauma being in the body.
00:47:03
Speaker
What are the potential harms of this mental model guiding our behavior? So with certain hip opening exercises or even nowadays vagus nerve stimulators are being marketed as helping with PTSD symptom. One of the biggest harms with that is that if we have no good data that it does actually help with PTSD or whatever the the mental health condition is,
00:47:29
Speaker
If we have no good data, people are going to try that first. It's got a compelling story that's being told about how it works. It's a very clear story when reality is much more murkier and our brains don't like that. Our brains like clarity, our brains like simplicity. So we're drawn to those more simplified fixes.
00:47:48
Speaker
And so unfortunately, i see a lot of people who have tried, they're spending time, money, and energy. doing all of these things to try to heal their mental health.
00:48:00
Speaker
And when it's not working, okay, what's wrong with me is one conclusion that they draw or I've just got to give up. Like nothing's going to work. There is no hope for me is another conclusion that people can draw. Those are real harm. I have no problem with people doing exercises or things that help them feel better, like subjectively. I think that's great, but not at the cost of treatments that we know actually lead to significant improvement.
00:48:30
Speaker
So that's where the real risks and harms come in is if people are being swayed away from things that we know work towards things, that don't work, or we have no evidence that they work.
00:48:43
Speaker
And they're spending their time, money and energy on these things. And many times they they end up concluding, it's me, I'm doing something wrong, or there's no hope for me. That's why it's so harmful.
00:48:57
Speaker
Thank you. Maybe we can close just on one final note, which is that if someone listening is suffering from some mental health struggles, what would you say are some of the best evidence-based resources that they should seek out?
00:49:13
Speaker
Yeah, so definitely find a licensed mental health professional. Talk to your doctor. Therapy and medication, depending on what exactly you're experiencing, are super helpful. And they don't have to be forever. Just going in and getting an appropriate course of treatment can help significantly. If you are experiencing PTSD specifically, the first line treatments for PTSD are cognitive processing therapy, prolonged exposure, trauma-focused CBT.
00:49:45
Speaker
You never hear about those on social media, but their data is so strong and compelling showing these benefits last for five to 10 years after treatment has ended. Like real world changes. Find a local...
00:50:00
Speaker
healthcare care provider to help you individually get that assessment and then get the right treatment plan for you and move forward and have hope. It really can get better. Thank you very much. And then finally, Vanessa, where can people find you? Yeah, on Instagram, I'm heavy lifting psychologist and my website is weightsforwellbeing.com.
00:50:20
Speaker
Feel free to reach out. Yeah, we'll link both of those in the show notes. Highly recommend following Vanessa on Instagram. She's a wealth of knowledge and just to refreshing voice, in my opinion.
00:50:37
Speaker
I think one of the biggest takeaways from this conversation for me is that we're always balancing this awareness of principles, of best practices with the individual needs of the person in front of us.
00:50:51
Speaker
This seems to be true for effective programming of exercise for individuals. It seems to be true for appropriate physical therapy treatments and medical treatments for people, appropriate menopause care, and as it turns out also, trauma-informed teaching. So thanks very much to Vanessa for coming on the show.
00:51:12
Speaker
and helping to share her insights, knowledge, and experience with us. Thank you all so much for listening. Please check out the show notes for some resources that we mentioned in this interview, as well as our free Barbell Mini Course, which you can sign up for. All we ask in exchange for the Barbell Mini Course is your email. And we think that's a small price to pay for our excellent course all about how to use barbells, technique for three main lifts in strength training, as well as how to use tools of strength training to know that you are approaching training effectively to make the changes you're looking for. So please get on our mailing list. You'll get the free barbell mini course. You'll also hear about some exciting new offerings we have coming up in the near future.
00:51:59
Speaker
All right. Thanks so much, everyone. We will see you in two weeks.