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Fact-Checking Female-Specific Training & Nutrition Advice with Dr. Lauren Colenso-Semple, PhD
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In this episode, Laurel and Sarah sit down with muscle physiology researcher and science communicator Lauren Colenso-Semple to take a hard look at some of the most popular and problematic claims circulating in women’s health and fitness. Together, they unpack the slogan “women are not small men,” and the idea that women need completely different training and nutrition approaches than men. Lauren explains where the evidence actually stands on topics like muscle loss at 30, lifting to failure, cardio recommendations for women, bone density changes at menopause, training fasted versus fed, cycle syncing, cortisol “hacks,” and more.
This conversation is a deep dive into separating women's physiology from marketing ploys. Learn why overcomplicating women’s training does more harm than good. You'll gain clear, evidence-based guidance for women in perimenopause, post-menopause, and beyond.
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04:30 Why Naming Sources Matters
08:15 “Women Are Not Small Men”: What’s True and What’s Branding
16:00 How Much Research on Women Actually Exists
29:30 Training to Failure, Heavy vs. Light Loads, and Age-Specific Claims
31:00 The Case for Keeping Moderate-Intensity Cardio
36:15 Bone Loss Myths and What Exercise Really Helps
46:30 What “Challenging Sets” Mean in Research
49:00 Cortisol, Fasted Training, and Breakfast Timing
52:30 Low Energy Availability vs. Simply Skipping Breakfast
01:08:00 Cycle Syncing and Monthly Program Overhauls
01:15:00 Rapid-Fire Q&A: Creatine, Weighted Vests, Collagen, Protein Targets, Electrolytes
01:23:30 How Overcomplicated Rules Keep Women Out of Exercise
01:24:00 Has Stacy Sims Done More Good or More Harm?
01:26:30 Why Simple, Progressive Training Works for Everyone
Dr Lauren Colenso-Semple on Instagram
Front Page Fitness Podcast
Study Menstrual cycle phase does not influence muscle protein synthesis or whole-body myofibrillar proteolysis in response to resistance
Mel Robbins Podcast interview with Dr. Stacey Sims
Huberman Lab Podcast interview with Dr. Stacey Sims
Recommended
Transcript
Misconceptions About Cortisol
00:00:00
Speaker
True or false, cortisol is the devil. False. Again, justice for cortisol. Justice for cortisol.
Introduction to Hosts and Mission
00:00:06
Speaker
ah
00:00:08
Speaker
I'm Laurel Biebersdorf, strength and conditioning coach. And I'm Dr. Sarah Court, physical therapist. With over 30 years of combined experience in fitness, movement, and physical therapy, we believe in strong opinions loosely held. Which means we're not here to hype outdated movement concepts.
00:00:24
Speaker
or to gatekeep or fearmonger strength training for women. For too long, women have been sidelined in strength training. Oh, you mean handed pink dumbbells and told to sculpt? Whatever that means, we're here to change that with tools, evidence, and ideas that center women's needs and voices.
00:00:40
Speaker
Let's dive in.
00:00:55
Speaker
Welcome to Season 7 of the Movement Logic Podcast. I'm Laurel Bieversdorf, and I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Sarah Court. Hello. Hello. We are recording before the season.
00:01:08
Speaker
We are before. We are not in Season 7. So three-ish months from now, we will be airing this episode.
Yoga Teaching and Dharma Talks
00:01:18
Speaker
And we have a very special guest for you today.
00:01:21
Speaker
She is an expert in female physiology. We will officially introduce her soon. Before we do that, let's talk about our lives. Sarah, what is going on? I wrote a note in our combined notes. I wrote, Sarah's surprise banter.
00:01:37
Speaker
And then I wrote, let's hope she can fucking remember. Because... Just antagonizing yourself. I forget a lot of stuff. And I also... only actually remembered what this was. Like i I pulled this document open a couple hours ago i looked at it and I was like, oh shit, I don't remember.
00:01:54
Speaker
Like I really don't remember what this was about. Why didn't you just write it in the document? I didn't write it in the document because I didn't want you to see it ahead of time. I wanted you to have like an honest in the moment reaction. Remember that time you told me not to read the outline because you're like, don't read the outline because it's got to be a secret. Otherwise it won't work. And I went immediately and read the outline.
00:02:14
Speaker
Yeah. I've learned that's not a strategy that works with Laurel. So I just have to rely on my memory, which is maybe an even worse strategy because it's very, it's like a piece of tissue paper that you can blow on and it falls apart. Like there's really nothing there. But luckily just a few minutes ago, I did remember what it was.
00:02:33
Speaker
I had written to myself, hint, it's about both of us being yoga teachers. And at first reading that hint did nothing for me.
Authenticity in Yoga and Podcasting
00:02:39
Speaker
That could be a lot of stories. Exactly. and like, that's not enough in detail, but I remember, I remember what it is, which is this.
00:02:48
Speaker
When you were a yoga teacher, Were you trained to do what sort of colloquially became known as Dharma talk at the beginning of your classes? you asked.
00:02:58
Speaker
I'm glad you asked because originally when I was very new to yoga as a student would love them. And then as I learned more about yoga, I would go to the same classes, the same teachers, and they would start their Dharma talk. And I'd be like, what are you talking about?
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah. It was so deep when I was new to yoga. And then it was like, so like word salad-y. later Although there are some teachers who can give a damn good Dharma talk.
00:03:25
Speaker
I'm sure you were one of them. i never I've never heard your Dharma talks before. But like Joe Miller. I don't know if you know who Joe Miller is. Joe Miller? Not Jill Miller. Joe. Joe. joe i don't Miller Yeah, Joe Miller. I taught in Costa Rica with him. We did the anatomy portion of a 200-hour teacher training together.
00:03:40
Speaker
That guy can give a great Dharma talk. It's very authentic and it's very intelligent and it makes sense. But there were lots of teachers where I just felt like they were putting sentences together that didn't really go together, but sounded spiritual.
00:03:53
Speaker
Sure. So then I started teaching oh yeah and I was not told that I should give a Dharma talk, but some of my teacher trainers gave Dharma talks and then others just completely avoided them. and And they were like, listen, if it's coming from an authentic place where you have something to say that makes sense and it's tied to the practice somehow, go for it. right and And I started to notice that the popular teachers gave Dharma talks. And so then I tried to give Dharma talks and it just... it just It was so bad.
00:04:22
Speaker
It felt bad. It so probably sounded bad. And I was like, okay, enough of that. I'm not doing dormitory anymore. I would weave in stuff that was not completely related to movement in the class. And there was a sense of humor and there was a connection to real life, but it was just not this speech at the beginning. right And I also feel like it's very difficult for me to sit down and not move and then say something smart. right I need to actually be moving my body. I don't know. There was so much about the way that it suggested to me that I should play the role of a yoga teacher that immediately crushed anything insightful that I had to say. If I would just literally stop trying to be a yoga teacher and just be myself, I had plenty of things to say. Yeah, I wanted to know that because I had a thought the other night, you know, late night thoughts.
00:05:06
Speaker
And i was thinking about this podcast and And because I did do Dharma talks, I trained as a Jeeva Mukti teacher, the Dharma talk, they never called it that. That's just sort of what colloquially it became known as, but they would have sort of a topic per month. would be ahimsa, non-harming or something. And so everyone's talk had to be sort of around that theme. So that was always very helpful because it gave you a container of a subject as opposed to like, just talk about something. And then you're like, well, what, what, you know?
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah. but What I was thinking the other night was having this podcast in some ways is, for me at least, a way to keep doing the Dharma talk. But the Dharma talk is not religious now. It's science. yeah you know and so Because there's otherwise, there's not really an opportunity. In my day-to-day, I'm working one-on-one with patients generally. I'm not teaching group classes.
00:05:56
Speaker
I'm not teaching yoga classes. I'm not getting to talk about these things in a bigger conceptual way very much so. I think that's part of what I love about getting to record and also getting to record with you because I definitely feel like you make me smarter.
00:06:08
Speaker
that No, for sure. Laurel doesn't let me get away with anything. So anytime I say something remotely iffy, she's like, huh? And I'm like, oh God, you're right. But hang on, I got to go back and look at that. I can't just like slide through, but it does. It ends up making me smarter. So I appreciate that. but i appreciate having a ah place where we get to really talk about stuff that matters.
00:06:28
Speaker
Oh, thank you for sharing that. I'm going to say you also, are an amazing editor for my rambling, where you will very gently go, Laurel, let's stay on topic. Can we to
00:06:43
Speaker
but You do it in such a nice way where I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. I'm doing that thing where I go down a rabbit hole and forget that there are people listening to me because I'm just talking. I'm saying my thoughts out loud.
00:06:55
Speaker
Your rabbit holes are always interesting and they're related and I think valuable. But then sometimes we just do need to like kind of just... Put the train back on the tracks.
00:07:08
Speaker
And I cannot thank you enough for that. It's absolutely my pleasure. I would be a derailed train a lot.
00:07:16
Speaker
Laurel, who are we talking to today? Oh, we have a great episode. We have a great episode with Dr.
Introducing Dr. Lauren Colenzo Semple
00:07:23
Speaker
Lauren Colenzo Semple for you today. Lauren is a muscle physiology researcher and science communicator with a PhD in integrative physiology from McMaster University and an MS in exercise science from the University of South Florida.
00:07:38
Speaker
Her work focuses on the influence of ovarian hormones on exercise-induced adaptations. She's also an expert fitness professional with years of practical experience in strength and conditioning and sports nutrition.
00:07:52
Speaker
And she is co-owner of the Mass Research Review. She also has a fantastic Instagram account. If you are not following her, you want to stop what you're doing and follow her. It's at DrLaurenCS1.
00:08:09
Speaker
where she blasts through just myths and misunderstandings around women's exercise, nutrition, supplements, and more. She's also co-host of our new favorite podcast, Front Page Fitness with Dr. Eric Trexler.
00:08:22
Speaker
It's hilarious. And he basically gives her a hard time about everything. It's really entertaining. Yeah, they have great banter. We had a great conversation with her and we hope you enjoy it. Before we get to it, please...
00:08:34
Speaker
Rate, review, and subscribe to the Movement Logic Podcast so that you never miss an episode and so that the robot overlords get our message to more people.
00:08:44
Speaker
Or if that all sounds like jargon, you could just share this episode with a friend. Fair enough. That's good enough. Yeah. yeah Forward it to a friend. All right. Let's hear from Dr. Colenzo Semple.
Challenging Stacey Sims' Claims
00:08:57
Speaker
are
00:09:02
Speaker
Lauren, thank you so much for coming on the Movement Logic Podcast. We are both big fans of your work, your approach to cutting through the noise around women's exercise and fitness to get to what the evidence actually tells us.
00:09:15
Speaker
We want to talk to you today about a slew of fact-adjacent myths that we we think we're seeing all the time on social media that seem to be, think, an unnecessary, perhaps unnecessary overcomplication of women's health and fitness.
00:09:31
Speaker
in particular for women in peri or post-menopause, the menopause industrial complex, as it were. Yes. And as much as we tried not to make the claims all come from one source, as it turns out, a lot of them do either original claims by this one person or something that she also agrees with. Now, before we start naming names, we have seen a reluctance in other podcasts or on social media to name this person.
00:10:00
Speaker
And when we've inquired more closely, we've heard about threatening DMs from her cult fans, excuse me, or sidestepping naming names by claiming that they're more interested in data than calling out people.
00:10:13
Speaker
um But here at MovementLogic, we are interested in both data and calling out people. So we are going to risk the wrath of her followers and name the source for a lot of the claims we're going to be talking about today.
00:10:24
Speaker
And that is exercise physiologist and nutrition scientist, Dr. Stacey Sims. So before we get started, I just want to ask, having named Dr. Sims, are you now frightened that someone's going to leave a horse's head on your pillow?
00:10:40
Speaker
They've already come for me. So I'm no stranger to the hate. Okay. okay Sorry to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, i i have I've been following your podcast, Front Page Fitness, religiously.
00:10:57
Speaker
um Speaking of cults, no, I'm just kidding. ah Dear leader. No, I've been i've been following your your your podcast and hearing about they ah the blowback you're receiving. And then I go to your threads and I'm like, she's just responding with with the facts. She basically just told this person what's in the study and they're really mad at her. I'm like, wow. Wow.
00:11:18
Speaker
Okay, well, like Sarah said, we tried to find myths that weren't related to Stacey Sims, and we found it was pretty difficult. So we're now calling her patient zero for a lot of the um claims that are that are being you know bandied about on the internet. We actually feel that we have a responsibility to name names in this case, especially when someone is as credentialed as she is, putting messages out there ah because It's often really difficult to believe but or or you know what to do when a clinician or a scientist is putting out ah incorrect or misleading information. So let's get to it.
00:11:57
Speaker
We have collected claims from Sim's recent guest spots on the Huberman Lab podcast and Mel Robbins podcasts and distilled them down to what seem to be her core claims.
00:12:11
Speaker
We've also included some more generalized questions on prevailing trends in exercise for women. Okay, so let's let's start with a big one, which is the women are not small men.
00:12:26
Speaker
phrase, which Sims has coined and also has registered, I noticed, because I went to her website, that has become a rallying cry for women in health and fitness, right? Women are not small men.
00:12:37
Speaker
Personally, I'm six feet and 175 pounds, so I'm actually larger than some men. But anyway, while sex differences certainly exist, how do we know which physiological differences are meaningful enough to warrant different exercise or nutrition strategies, especially when we know that there's not as much research on women as there's been on men.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, so to start, I'll just say the reason I feel it's important to directly ah address the messenger as well as the messages, people are confused and it does harm when you overcomplicate fitness and nutrition and weight loss.
00:13:24
Speaker
And that is really troubling to me. And what I've seen you know or over the past few months is a lot of women just sort of throwing their hands up and walking away from fitness altogether because they don't know who to believe and they're so confused and it sounds so complicated. And so I think that it's important when somebody who has the credentials and comes off sounding like such an authority figure We as scientists have a responsibility to back up what we say with data.
00:13:59
Speaker
And responsible scientists will always acknowledge what we don't know, the nuance, the differences between individuals, which we always see with exercise and nutrition studies.
00:14:15
Speaker
And there's none of that happening here. And I think the issue with the women are not small men and kind of making that the brand identity is that when data comes out to show, hey, you know what? We're actually pretty similar in this way.
00:14:33
Speaker
um though The fat loss works pretty similar. um The exercise-induced adaptations will pretty much need to do the same things. That kind of breaks apart the brand. And so unfortunately, by ah really rooting everything around this claim, there's a ah lack of of willingness to acknowledge the similarities. And a lot of the claim is is also really tied to this message that we have no data in women.
00:15:07
Speaker
You know, nothing. It's all in men. And so therefore, you know, here's wild claim that, you know, you need to do something completely different. But we have a lot of data in women and certainly over the past 10, 15 years.
00:15:22
Speaker
Scientists have replicated many studies that were and and initially conducted in men on different exercise variables, on different nutritional strategies.
00:15:34
Speaker
And more and more and more, we see that while the hypothesis is was reasonable, you know, that there might be sex differences, the outcomes don't really reflect the those differences. And so I believe we need to consider, you know, from a practical perspective,
00:15:55
Speaker
the individual and understand that there's not going to be a one size fits all program for anyone. But that's because we have different goals and different priorities and different backgrounds.
00:16:06
Speaker
And that's fine. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I am a woman and you are a man. That's just good coaching and, and you know, acknowledge acknowledging of our inter individual differences.
00:16:19
Speaker
Can i ask a follow up question? based on what you said, so you're saying that there is there is quite a bit of research that's been done on women. Would you say that it's vastly less than what's been done on men, close to what's but been done on men, or how does it compare? And does it matter that it's a different amount?
00:16:38
Speaker
In other words, are you suggesting that there's actually been enough to sort of call into question this idea that women are physiologically so much more different than men that things need to be you know, applied to them quite a bit differently, I guess, is what I'm asking. Like, I think that the the way that Stacey Sims operates, which I think is a way that a lot of people like her, um who I think misuse their platform and their credentials operate, is it's it's a lot of two truths and a lie.
00:17:07
Speaker
Like, it is it true that there's less research on women, but does that therefore mean that women are not small men in the sense that, like, we need to just totally do things differently? like Yeah, so there's really two things here. One, there there is truth that know if we look at the literature as a whole, theyre especially in younger but women or in perimenopausal women, we don't have as much data. We do have quite a lot in postmenopausal, older women, um and we're getting more and more in women of all ages.
00:17:43
Speaker
But If we are to say there's no study in women on that particular question, the answer isn't. And therefore, I'm going to look at potential mechanistic data or rodent data and craft a recommendation that is going to instruct you to drastically change your behavior. Right.
00:18:06
Speaker
The answer is to actually do the research in women. Got it. And when we think about exercise in general, we do have plenty of exercise studies in women. We have plenty of nutrition studies in women to the point that what we see when they are replicated is that, you know, there aren't drastic differences in the efficacy of these strategies.
00:18:30
Speaker
And what that says to me is if there is a scenario where, okay, we don't have that replicated in women yet, I'm very comfortable relying on the studies that were conducted in men, at least as a starting point.
00:18:44
Speaker
Right. and and And you're suggesting that Sims uses, oftentimes uses studies done on rodents or studies done on animals that are not human to to sort of support some of her claims?
00:18:57
Speaker
Right. yeah That's right. I mean, honestly, I've um there are some claims that I honestly can't tell you where they came from. I've i've tried to even find a source and i just can't
Research on Women in Fitness
00:19:09
Speaker
cannot.
00:19:09
Speaker
by i have But really investigated the claims because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something. And so it wasn't that, i you know, I was trying to kind of go after this person.
00:19:25
Speaker
i was saying this is interesting because in the scientific community, in the fitness community, you're the only person saying these things and these are meaningful recommendations, very, very different.
00:19:39
Speaker
And so I wanted to understand where they came from. And what I found time and time again is the kind of kernel of truth comes from rodent data. Got it. and then perhaps it's referenced in a narrative review, which is sort of a ah literature review, kind of an opinion paper that would discuss a topic and the state of the science on a topic, and you can reference whatever you want.
00:20:07
Speaker
So perhaps the title of that narrative review is something that doesn't allude to rodent research. But when you actually look at the references, when it comes to those claims, they are rodent studies.
00:20:22
Speaker
I, sorry, have a ah related follow-up question, which is we know that Sims has done a ton of her own research. She's published something like over 100 papers. um Have you had the opportunity to look at her work? And is that where she is generating some of her claims that are not held up by other current research?
00:20:44
Speaker
I'm not aware of her doing any research recently in in recent years. ah She has published review papers, like i like I mentioned, which are not clinical trials. So there is no intervention.
00:21:01
Speaker
And it would basically be, you know, I can get together with some colleagues and we might pitch a journal. hey can we write about women and fasting? And the journal would say, ah sure. Or maybe the journal would come to us and say, hey, are you interested in writing a review about protein and older adults? And then we do that.
00:21:20
Speaker
And so it it is a good way to kind of beef up your... your publications, it can it the it's designed to say, here are some gaps in the in the literature, and now we should all prioritize these as our future research projects.
00:21:36
Speaker
It shouldn't be used to sort of craft your own narrative or or push any sort of agenda. That's not the purpose And so while I know that when when she she did research, she did some kind of hydration work in women, I believe.
00:21:55
Speaker
But in modern day, people say, oh, she's doing her own research and she's publishing it on her website. If you're doing your own research and it's research.
00:22:09
Speaker
Laurel, we should start doing our own research and publishing it on our website. where where we Where have we heard that? I did my own research. Yeah. Also, like, I didn't know it was that easy. You just publish it on your own website and then you're a published author.
00:22:22
Speaker
Shoot. You can publish hundreds of papers a year, I guess. if if I guess so. I've been doing it a long time. So, I mean, to be clear, doing research, conducting a clinical trial from design to, ah you know, participant recruitment to data collection to data analysis, these trials take one to three plus years just to do one study.
00:22:51
Speaker
yeah And so um it yeah yeah yeah the idea that anyone would be presenting something as research or that people would be misinterpreting it as research when it's not actually published in a peer-reviewed journal is a huge problem. I'm glad you asked that question, Sarah, because I was unaware.
00:23:11
Speaker
Okay. All right. So data suggests that women start to lose muscle as soon as 30. Is this true? is this true Is it true for women only or does this happen to men too?
00:23:27
Speaker
Do women start to lose muscle at a different age than 30? What say you? The data on this is basically looking at groups of people in their twenty s groups of people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and then trying to model, right?
00:23:44
Speaker
So it's not following you over time and measuring you every decade of life. We don't have that data. and And it's a really, really hard study. And so when we try to answer questions like that, then this is what the the starting point to get a large enough data set to say, okay, let's look at these people in in this decade of life and then these people in the that decade of life and let's do a comparison and then try to model what's going on. So that's where that...
00:24:13
Speaker
30, some people will say 40. It depends on how you kind of structure that model, but that's where it comes from. And it's similar in men and women. wow These studies don't take into account physical activity.
00:24:27
Speaker
and And so these this is it's it's not surprising that we would see you know this rate of muscle loss and as we are you know increasingly sedentary for most of our adult life and and increasing it into old age.
00:24:42
Speaker
But we see the muscle loss really start to accelerate in the 70s and 80s. That's when we have the biggest decline.
00:24:54
Speaker
And it appears to be a function of aging and coupled with physical inactivity. So what I'm hearing is that data suggest that women and men start to lose muscle as soon as age 30, but that it might be less related to anabolic resistance as it is related to lifestyle of just becoming more sedentary.
00:25:20
Speaker
Did I Did I get that right? So it's hard to say exactly why, right? Because we can say, is it aging? Is it anabolic resistance? Well, they're both sort of happening at the same time. um and And that's why when people say, oh, it's menopause,
00:25:38
Speaker
And then you try to tease out menopause from aging. well you can't really do that because menopause and aging are happening at the same time. But one thing we can do is look at the menopause transition and the the years before and after.
Benefits of Resistance Training
00:25:55
Speaker
And then, you know, if it's menopause, right, we should see some dramatic shift during that transition. And if we don't, then... it's probably more of an age-related factor. And then if we see, oh, men are following a similar trajectory, then that's another indication that it's probably an age-related factor. Got it. But yeah all is this to say is, you know, if you are resistance training, then that is how you can preserve and continue to build a muscle mass regardless of how old you are.
00:26:27
Speaker
And regardless of sex. Correct. Yeah. Cool. And there's a push that we're seeing to get women over 35 start lifting heavier weights and to shift away from the sort of like high rep, low load workouts that are typically marketed to women because, you know, women should want to, you know, quote unquote tone or sculpt or or don't get too bulky. All these words that make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
00:26:52
Speaker
What is the evidence suggest about how training priorities should change for women as they age? They don't change. It's more a function of people not engaging in them at all.
00:27:05
Speaker
um Or not, I mean, this isn't from a scientific perspective. This is more of just my personal opinion. But what I see is a lot of women... don't have a consistent exercise routine and don't have a progressive um program. And so, you know, we'll do this group fitness class on Monday and that group fitness class on Tuesday ah or get really into Pilates for a couple months and then get really into cycling for another couple months.
00:27:32
Speaker
And then ultimately you're healthy, know, your exercise is good, but then everyone who has these body composition goals is feeling like, oh, I'm just spinning my wheels, even though i'm always going to the gym, but I'm not really changing the way that I look. And that is because you're not engaging in a resistance training program that is sufficiently challenging and progressive in nature.
00:27:55
Speaker
Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was kind of an aside. I always find it very contradictory. Well, no, I always find it seems it seems ah very bizarre that, you know, people like Sims who have these very seemingly hyper-specific protocols that they're suggesting for people around exercise,
00:28:17
Speaker
are like making almost like it's like assumed in their advice giving that like most people are already exercising when like the vast majority of people aren't. And so then I'm like, well who are you even talking to?
00:28:29
Speaker
Like, are you just like talking to yourself right now or like to the know like five five people that are currently doing any exercise at all that are listening? like um Yeah.
00:28:42
Speaker
Okay. So Sims recommends that. So speaking of hyper-specific advice, right? Sims recommends that younger women train to failure. And I think that on the Huberman Lab podcast, they defined younger women as like twenty age 20 to 30. Okay.
00:28:57
Speaker
okay So younger women train to failure while older women, so that that I think was like 40 plus, age 40 plus, should lift heavier and avoid failure.
00:29:10
Speaker
I think I know what you're going say, but is there research supporting age-specific hypertrophy or strength protocols in women or anyone? No, we have a lot of data looking at different rep ranges in younger men, older men, younger women, older women, middle-aged men and women.
00:29:28
Speaker
So everybody. um And we we see, because this is actually something that the scientific community changed their mind about over few let's say 20 year period, because there was a time where you were thought you were taught in your personal trainer course, oh, this is the strength rep range. And this is the hypertrophy rep range. And this is the muscular endurance rep range.
00:29:50
Speaker
And what we find for muscle growth is actually you can do your super low reps or you can do really high reps. But as long as you are training close enough to failures, as long as it's sufficiently stimulating, that hypertrophy is the same. So really, this should be based on personal preference. And obviously some exercises are more suitable to certain rep ranges than others. You know, I'm not going to be doing sets of 30 squats or deadlifts.
00:30:19
Speaker
Me neither. So speaking of like very specific advice around exercise, that's really questionable. Sims also promotes this very polarized cardio training model for women that I actually, I just find it quite bizarre.
00:30:35
Speaker
You're either supposed to be doing like high intensity, like sprint training, or very low intensity, like taking a friend and going for a walk. it What is the, sorry, it's just very hard for me to get it out because it just, what is the basis? Like, what is the, the,
00:30:54
Speaker
ah thinking that you're just going to leave out this whole section in the middle, like that that's that's not a good area for women to be working out. like Is that a good model for women to be following?
00:31:05
Speaker
Moderate cardio is bad for you you're a woman. Again, we have data here that shows men and women adapt really similarly to different endurance training programs at different
Debunking Cardio Myths for Women
00:31:20
Speaker
intensities. And so clearly, if you have endurance performance goals, you have to train at all of those intensities if if you actually want to be any good.
00:31:30
Speaker
um But if you're just looking for physical activity, then we need to tell people to do whatever they will do on a regular basis. And i really hate this message because makes you afraid to go for a run.
00:31:47
Speaker
yeah And anything that discourages physical activity is a problematic message. It's one thing to say, for this goal, this is better than that. It's another thing to say, you should never do this.
00:32:02
Speaker
It also seems like there's a fair amount of messages. Like it's not said overtly, but when I hear her interviewed, like on the Mel Robbins interview, and the whole thing was about how like, oh, women are doing it all wrong. And here's the reason why that stubborn belly fat won't go away, even though you're doing the same workout as your husband. It's because you're doing the wrong things.
00:32:24
Speaker
my my I have sort of two problems with that. One is i don't think that's accurate, but also it seems like there is a focus in her work on weight loss, fat loss, appearance, things like that. Like, like, like, like those are the only goals women should have. They don't seem to be performance-based goals to your point where it's like, well, let's say you wanted to run a marathon and you're like, but Stacey Sims told me only to do sprints or walking.
00:32:53
Speaker
Right. So it doesn't seem like a lot of her advice is really based on any sort of performance goal as much as it's based on how to, you know, lose some weight. Does that, do you, do you agree with that?
00:33:06
Speaker
I, the messaging confuses me because sometimes when she's criticized, she'll come back and say, you know, I, I work with highly active women. And so, you know, my messaging is for only highly active women, but clearly it's not when you go and you and you say all women should do this or women are different because of this.
00:33:26
Speaker
And I mean, if she's trying to advise people appropriately on fat loss, she's doing a terrible job because she's saying calorie deficits don't work for women. um And that, you know, if you want visible abs, you should be doing compound exercises. ah Whereas, you know, your husband should be in a calorie deficit and doing direct ab training.
00:33:47
Speaker
mean, it's it's that's terrible advice. It's just a lie. yeah yeah i always thought that was weird as well. Like, Why are you saying women don't need to do any core exercises?
00:33:57
Speaker
Then they're just are going to do their squats and their belly fat will magically disappear. I was like, well, you know, you're going to stand up taller and you're, I'm like, i yeah I can stand up as tall as I want. Like, ah you know, you need continue to lose body fat.
00:34:10
Speaker
yeah And if you want visible abs, you want growth in your abs, you need to train them directly. I mean, it's, it's just that one. It blows my mind because I ah truly don't know where that comes from.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She she in the Heberman Lab podcast, which i was tasked with listening to, she talked about how, unfortunately, you know, she really likes riding her gravel bike for long periods of time.
00:34:40
Speaker
And it's not ideal. for her, but she does it for mental health. And so she's like, okay, all right, ladies, if you really need to do the long duration, low intensity or moderate intensity cardio for mental health, it's not ideal, but that's okay.
00:34:58
Speaker
um But what you really should be doing is this polarized training of like sprints, or now you need to rest, just walk. And I just, I found it So absurd.
00:35:10
Speaker
But the way that it comes out, she sounds very credible. And like she knows what she's talking about. And it's, I guess this isn't really a question. It's just me going like, how have we gotten here?
00:35:24
Speaker
Yeah, i I have a comment on that, actually. um I think that the way she communicates sounds very scientific and confusing, but she sounds confident and she's using big words, and so people will take her word for it.
00:35:43
Speaker
When in reality, it's one thing for me in the lab to have a discussion with a bunch of scientists about the particular... molecular pathway or mechanism and we know what we're talking about.
00:35:58
Speaker
But if I'm going out and speaking about practical exercise and nutrition recommendations, I need to explain them in a way that everybody understands. Because even if human physiology is complex, exercise and nutrition recommendations are not.
00:36:14
Speaker
And so that to me is is a red flag. We don't need to be talking about and the hypothalamus Sorry. We don't. We just don't. and Kiss peptin.
00:36:29
Speaker
yeah um yeah like I can explain very simply why a calorie deficit works or why training in different rep ranges work. and and Let's have a conversation that people can actually to understand the why behind the what, not confuse them with the why and then just say, take my word for it on the what.
00:36:52
Speaker
We're going to switch topics a little bit here. Let's talk about bones. Oh, if I can say one more thing about sprints. Sure. Yeah, yes, please. I think that recommendation is really irresponsible because if you are not a sprinter, you will have poor sprint mechanics. Yeah. And that is a recipe for disaster. That's a really good point.
00:37:12
Speaker
Please don't um just start sprinting. you're you know You'll probably get hurt and then you won't be able to exercise at all. Yeah, it's it's like, you know, maybe when you start strength training for the first time, don't start lifting heavy. Maybe when you start doing plyometrics, don't start doing 14-inch depth jumps. Yeah. yeah
Effective Exercises for Bone Density
00:37:32
Speaker
All right.
00:37:32
Speaker
So if we switch switch our focus now, and let's talk about bones, because there's a ah lot of concern about rapid bone loss at menopause. And Sims claimed in her interview on the humor Huberman Lab that women lose up to one third of their bone mass during this time.
00:37:51
Speaker
I have actually never heard that before. So how how accurate is that? that's That's inaccurate. um The thing about bone is it seems like we achieve our peak bone mass probably in our 20s.
00:38:04
Speaker
And so then for the rest of your adulthood, you're just trying to maintain what you have, unlike muscle, where we can continue to grow. um And it's true that around the the menopause transition, so you know kind of before and after, if you look at a maybe 10-year period, then you can see 1% to 1.5% per year of bone loss on on average.
00:38:30
Speaker
So I can understand making the claim that it's 10% over the menopause transition, maybe, um But also keep in mind that this isn't going to apply to everybody because the
00:38:47
Speaker
peak bone mass you achieve is driven by genetics and your physical activity and nutrition during development. And then your ability to maintain that is also affected by those factors and can be compromised by certain factors, like having a very low BMI is one risk factor. Smoking is another.
00:39:09
Speaker
Excessive alcohol consumption is another. um And so then the rate at which you start to lose bone density is also heavily influenced by genetics. so um And unfortunately, even if we kind of do everything wrong,
00:39:21
Speaker
um to the best of our ability. Sometimes you just got the short end of the stick and, you know, a low bone density runs in your family and you and you do end up ah having some some issues with it. But regardless, the physical activity is is super, super important as ah one of the modifiable factors.
00:39:40
Speaker
Yeah. What is your impression from current available research as to the most beneficial exercise methods for bone density and osteoporosis? Like, does it matter if we are lifting heavy, moderate, or lightweights?
00:39:55
Speaker
Is impact training a necessity or just another way to increase bone mineral density? Yeah, there's a recent network meta-analysis that tried to kind compare all these different types of interventions, aerobic exercise, resistance training, jumping, walking.
00:40:14
Speaker
ah and And they found that the most effective interventions were either aerobic training or resistance training or a combination of both.
00:40:26
Speaker
But the studies in bone are – you can criticize them because some of the interventions aren't long enough to actually see bone adaptations. When we think about muscle research, you can see something happen in two or three months.
00:40:40
Speaker
With bone, it's more nine months as kind of a minimum. So I think we we don't have a wealth of high-quality data, but it does seem like – challenging resistance training works.
00:40:55
Speaker
And so if you're somebody who's already lifting weights for the muscle benefits, then it seems like we're going to get bone benefits as well. Okay. there's an argument to not do so much um like repetitive, like called going on long runs, things like that for bone, because although it's it's this you're getting that kind of repeated impact, but it's not high impact. And so if you're somebody who is osteopenic, then maybe that wouldn't be optimal. But
00:41:30
Speaker
that those are That would be ah the opinion of kind of the bone people. um But, you know, some in some studies, jumping seems to work. And in others, it seems to not work very much.
00:41:43
Speaker
One thing that is important to distinguish is there's jumping like plyometrics. And then there's jumping with this sort of straight leg landing. And the the research that shows that it's beneficial is but jumping up to a pull-up bar and then dropping as sort of heavily as you can, trying to keep your legs straight.
00:42:05
Speaker
And that is probably more effective for bone than traditional plyometrics because if you are landing in a squat, then the muscles and the connective tissue are absorbing a lot of that force. So it's not just bone.
00:42:19
Speaker
I don't know that straight leg jumps are a very practical recommendation for women. so you know, I think we're at a point where I will say lift weights because you muscle benefits, of course. We want to grow and preserve muscle as we age.
00:42:43
Speaker
It also allows us to move through full ranges of motion and you know balance ourselves under load. And that, in my mind, would contribute to reduced fall risk.
00:42:58
Speaker
And all of this talk about bone density is fracture risk, right? And if we don't fall, we don't fracture. And so if you are a stronger, you know, I'll use the word functional individual, meaning you lift weights, you have muscle, you are capable of doing these exercises in different planes um and workouts.
00:43:19
Speaker
your muscles are strong and therefore your connective tissue is strong and that attaches to your bones, then I think we're we're setting ourselves up for for a good outcome. But certainly you can make the argument that um incorporating some balance training might be a good idea or doing the jumps if you enjoy them.
00:43:39
Speaker
Sure. And I don't think aerobic ah training is is bad for for bone, it really seems consistent physical activity is going to be beneficial. Yeah.
00:43:54
Speaker
I've read in um your one of your debunk myth-busting posts, which I love, as well as I've heard from other scientists um who all you all seem to be kind of pushing back against Sims' claims, whether overtly or covertly, um you know saying her name or not saying her name, but that the sets when you're doing resistance training and say you're doing like high rep, light load or moderate rep, moderate load or heavy load, low reps, that the sets need to be quote challenging.
00:44:24
Speaker
And this is just sort of something I'm personally curious about, but I think is is super relevant to our conversation. Like how do you define challenging in research? How do you measure it? um How do you record data that, you know,
00:44:38
Speaker
it communicates how challenging the sets were for the people who were being studied. um How do you know that a set has been taken to a point that's challenging enough to make a difference specifically to bone neural density? Because I think I've i've heard that the sets need to be challenging if resistance training is going to contribute to increase in bone neural density, you know, given that the the research is a little bit mixed and it's it's maybe not all as high quality as we need it to be.
00:45:08
Speaker
Basically, what does challenging mean? So people will point to a study for bone where one group did five by five squats, deadlifts, and the other group did this at-home exercise program with two-pound weights or something.
00:45:27
Speaker
they' It's not ship surprising that the heavy weights were better for bone. But that doesn't actually tell us a comparison of doing lighter loads but with a sufficient stimulus, right?
00:45:41
Speaker
um And so ah you know that all that tells us is that lifting heavy was better than doing an ineffective training program with mostly body weight.
00:45:52
Speaker
ah So when we think about what is challenging in a research setting, it's ah various definitions of failure. So you can either have failure meaning I physically can't do another one or failure meaning um I am telling you i can't do another one.
00:46:14
Speaker
yeah I can't take the suffering. Yeah. you know and And then you if you're trying to – it depends on the exercise program, but um and there there are some studies that will say you know we need to – we want to stop the sets one or two repetitions shy of failure, ah which basically means you're there with the participant and you say, you know how many more do you have? Can you give me another one? And depending on whether they're stopping shy of failure or going –
00:46:47
Speaker
to failure, you're coaching them through that. Yeah. Yeah. and i And I think that in this case, if it's the reps and reserve, which you just described, the failure, it is it defined as the official stopping point? Like this is going to be muscular failure, absolute failure, or I've heard it called technical failure, as in like the point at which you maybe could do more, but your form would fall apart, or you maybe could do more, but it would cause undue psychological and physical suffering because of the fatigues, and yeah like perception.
00:47:21
Speaker
You know, is this something that's like they're always very clearly delineated in research? Like, what do we mean by failure? What what does that mean? And then how close are we officially going to need to get to it for it to be stimulating?
00:47:35
Speaker
So I think as a rule for those of us who are lifting or coaching others, then it it should definitely be the last repetition that you can do with proper form. Yeah.
00:47:47
Speaker
But for research settings, it will depend on the exercise, right? Because if I'm just doing the machine leg extension and I go for another rep and I can't make it, I can't complete it, then...
00:48:03
Speaker
it the it's not dangerous, right? she Yeah. um ah And so it's it's easier in that type of really controlled setting with that type of exercise to just kind of go for it anyway. And you don't have to worry about, oh, my form was compromised.
00:48:23
Speaker
If I'm doing a barbell overhead press and I go for another one and tweak my shoulder, then that's going to be more of a problem. So yeah. That's why just in general, anyway, there are certain exercises that um are not a big deal if you train to failure in you know in in your everyday session. And then there are others that the risk is higher.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yes. yeah Yeah. Yes.
00:48:54
Speaker
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00:49:11
Speaker
You might be wondering, am I doing the right kind of training to actually support my bone health? What's the smartest way to keep my body strong without risking injury? What's the best way to modify lifts if I have joint pain or past injuries?
00:49:25
Speaker
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00:49:36
Speaker
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00:49:51
Speaker
Join the interest list now via the link in the show notes.
00:50:03
Speaker
All right, let's let's talk about cortisol for a moment because this hormone is apparently responsible for everything that ever goes wrong. Uh, And let's talk about its relationship to intermittent fasting or fasted training.
00:50:21
Speaker
Sims promotes this growing narrative that women, particularly in midlife, respond poorly to intermittent and fasted training, intermittent fasting and fasted training due hypothalamic sensitivity and increased cortisol.
00:50:37
Speaker
What does the evidence actually show about sex differences in metabolic and hormonal responses to intermittent fasting or to fasted exercise? The truth is that fasting or prolonged fasting does increase cortisol um and that cortisol is higher in the morning um and that cortisol increases with exercise.
00:51:03
Speaker
But that's sort of where the the truth part ends because then that's turned into, and this is a problem, which is not true. ah yeah you know This is ah poor cortisol, right? the Justice for cortisol.
00:51:16
Speaker
Yeah. That would be an amazing post. T-shirt, T-shirt. justinqui ah oh It's a really important hormone and it does a lot more than than just increase when we have physiological stressors. you know it It helps with with blood glucose regulation and blood pressure ah regulation. it helps with immune function. And it's really well controlled by the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland and the adrenals. And these all work together to increase it when necessary and bring it back down.
00:51:53
Speaker
when necessary. And that's true with many, many, many, many hormones. That's just how they work. They they ah are tightly controlled and we don't need to interfere unless you're somebody who has an illness or health condition that's dysregulating those processes. And so meaning it can't fluctuate by itself. And so the A spike in glucose and insulin is another example. We eat and that and we get that glucose spike and then we have a release of insulin and this all is kind of self-resolves unless you're diabetic and in which case perhaps you you know you need to intervene.
00:52:33
Speaker
But this is another example of of kind of creating a problem out of out of nothing because all of those things can be true. about cortisol, that it's it's higher in the morning because it's supposed to be.
00:52:44
Speaker
And it increases with exercise because that's a physiological stressor. And it increases with prolonged fasting, again, because that's a perceived physiological stressor. But that's fine because after the exercise, it's going to go back down. And when we eat, it's going to go back down.
00:52:58
Speaker
um So then we get to the sex differences question, right? And we have data in women, right? and men either training fed or training fasted and looking at performance outcomes and muscle growth and fat loss and we're not seeing any differences and so this is another issue that i have when we talk about ah hormone or one particular pathway or we throw out things like nutrient sensitivity
00:53:33
Speaker
People care about the outcome, right? People care about the muscle growth. People care about the fat loss. People care about the strength gains. People care about their performance goals. So we're kind of focusing on this intermediate step.
00:53:45
Speaker
But if it doesn't affect the outcome we care about, then we shouldn't be changing our recommendations. Right. I mean, we when we do that, when we look at what happens acutely and then we assume it's reflective of the long-term adaptations, we're often wrong. And this happened with fasted training ah a decade, 15 years ago, where everyone said, well, you but burn more fat during fasted training. And so ah that means you'll lose more fat, right? And all the bodybuilders started doing fasted cardio.
00:54:24
Speaker
Turns out, just because you oxidize more fat as fuel during that exercise session, it's not related to long-term fat loss. And so we need to be really careful about, again, kind of creating a problem and then and then saying, oh, it's going to interfere with the adaptation that people care about when we don't have data to support that. And in some cases, like this case, we have data to refute that.
00:54:48
Speaker
Yeah. You recently made a post that demystified this confusion that I think is super prevalent between using ah fat as fuel for performance versus fat loss.
00:55:04
Speaker
And you talked about how you can, like you just said, oxidize fat for fuel during running, for example. But that fat loss is more about energy balance, right? Which is about that calorie deficit.
00:55:18
Speaker
Is that... Accurate. Okay. That's right. Yeah. And I just found that your very concise meme was like cleared up a ton of confusion. Thank you, Lauren. Okay.
00:55:31
Speaker
So Sims also states that women need to eat early in the day to align with circadian rhythms and reduce increased stress cortisol, right?
00:55:45
Speaker
I find this advice personally annoying because I typically don't eat for a good three to four hours after I wake up, but I wake up really early, but I find I have plenty of energy to accomplish what I need to at that time of day without eating, and I don't feel hungry.
00:55:59
Speaker
There might be a kernel of truth in this, as there there often is. Is there evidence to suggest that skipping or delaying breakfast has more negative consequences for people, but I'll also just say for women,
00:56:13
Speaker
rather than men, because that's typically how all of this advice is framed is like women are not small men. And therefore, this is advice for women. what What we do know is just there's so much inter-individual difference here that making a blanket statement like that doesn't make any sense. And really, um it's probably true that it's better to try to eat...
00:56:41
Speaker
around the same times on a ah day-to-day basis. So you'll know if you're somebody who consistently eats breakfast, you wake up and you're hungry. And if you're somebody who consistently does not eat breakfast, you wake you don't wake up hungry. And and that's because your system and your hunger hormones are...
00:57:00
Speaker
responding to that continued behavior and that and that it's becoming predictable for you. And you'll know, when you try to change that, that it'll, it'll take a ah bit of adjusting before your your hormones kind of follow.
00:57:15
Speaker
And Really, this should just be based on preference. If you're somebody who likes to eat before you work out because you feel like it improves your performance, then that's great. If you're somebody who trains really early in the morning or ah eating before a workout gives you GI discomfort, then skip the food. um It's not going to interfere with your longer term adaptations, provided you are eating sufficient calories and and protein for the rest of the day. And I think, unfortunately, this whole message is really getting warped to saying if you are ah doing some sort of intermittent fasting, time-restricted feeding, or if you are training fasted, that then you are in a state of low energy availability. yeah But that assumes that you're, then all of the kind of fear-based messaging around low energy but availability is coupled with the messaging around fasted training.
00:58:11
Speaker
And it's true that low energy availability is a problem. It's something that should be avoided. And it's experienced by high level female athletes who are exercising a ton and under fueling.
00:58:27
Speaker
yeah And then you end up in this kind of cycle. And that can include menstrual cycle dysfunction and a you know a host of other health issues. Yes. Female athlete triad.
00:58:38
Speaker
yeah yeah But that's not what you get from a fasted what training session. Yeah. is Is this another example of conflating the acute with the chronic?
00:58:51
Speaker
yeah Yes. I mean, and and we have to remember that you can take a snapshot of right now. ah And, ah you know, if I haven't I haven't eaten today, I'm not in a state of low energy availability just because I haven't eaten yet today. Right. I'm in a state of low energy availability if I am not fueling enough to support the extreme amount of of exercise that I am performing on a chronic basis. Yeah. So not eating before your workout says nothing about your exercise or fueling for the rest of the day.
00:59:27
Speaker
ah and And so, yeah, this is it it really is that muddying the water here by bringing in low energy availability, but acting like ah the body just resets overnight and you have nothing in you.
00:59:42
Speaker
When in reality, i know I ate dinner last night, so I have stored glycogen. I could go to the gym and I will be fine. yeah we we don't start every day on empty. yeah yeah it's it's ah it's like claiming it's It's a confusion, it seems like, of energy availability with what's actually in your stomach right now.
01:00:02
Speaker
As like what you just ate, that's your only available energy, right? As if you don't have stores all over your body. Yeah. yeah Or as if digestion doesn't take a long time. Right. Like, like people are like, I eat this half an hour before i go to the gym. I'm like, okay.
01:00:18
Speaker
Yeah. You're probably not actually using that now at the gym. it right's like like it's It's like that, that classic conflation of like the body with a, with a car, like the car doesn't have gas in the tank and it's not going to go. like, that's not how it works with people. bodies Yeah.
01:00:34
Speaker
All right. um So back to cortisol, claims are often made that women in perimenopause have chronically elevated cortisol and that this is causing all kinds of problems, including it's causing the loss of lean mass or it's causing fat gain, especially visceral fat.
01:00:54
Speaker
What do we actually know about cortisol trends specifically for women across the lifespan? And are they different for perimenopausal women? How relevant, if they are, how relevant is any of this to exercise ah prescription?
01:01:12
Speaker
Chronically elevated cortisol is a problem, but it's not a problem that the majority of the population are experiencing. Thank you. Good. So if you have a chronically low is is a problem as well. And so chronically high Cushing's syndrome is an example of this. It's usually ah a ah function of an underlying health condition or sometimes if you're taking ah higher dose steroid medications and then, you know, you kind of accidentally end up with this dysregulation.
01:01:42
Speaker
Addison's disease would be an example of the the chronically low. Those are problems because what we talked about earlier, right? It needs to fluctuate and it knows when to increase and come back down. And so any of that is is not good because cortisol is important and involved in so many ah physiological systems.
01:01:59
Speaker
It's true that if you have Cushing's syndrome, you can end up with some body fat redistribution. And that's where the cortisol face and the menno belly, cortisol belly, like that's where this comes from.
01:02:15
Speaker
It's not true that you know everybody who is in the menopause transition is suddenly experiencing chronically high cortisol. This is a myth on the internet and people are using it to say, hey, you gained weight.
01:02:31
Speaker
It's because of cortisol by my supplements. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um Okay. Okay. This is, I just want to say, this is like so deeply satisfying this conversation because this is a lot, what you're saying is a lot of the stuff where Laurel and I were like, we look on the internet and we see people making these claims and we're like, that doesn't seem right. Like, i feel like they're using the research wrong or they're making a mountain out of a molehill or they're just clearly trying to sell you something you don't need. So thank you for coming on and
01:03:04
Speaker
making me feel good. but like Cleaning up the mess. Yeah. Yeah. It's really useful. So another mess that's out there is this idea of cycle syncing, which if the listener's not familiar, it's when you align your programming of your exercise with your menstrual cycle phases. You do certain exercises during certain phases and you avoid them during other phases. And You know, most critics argue that the research base is too weak to support highly specific training recommendations like this. So what's your perspective on this method? Do you think it's necessary for active women to track their cycles as a guide to their training and even their nutrition?
01:03:46
Speaker
Is it helpful or is this just another case of we're making things overcomplicated for women? Yeah, this is a huge problem for two reasons.
01:03:57
Speaker
One Anytime you are just constantly switching things up, you're not working towards your goal. And so if you have muscle growth goals, you need to lift weights consistently, not just for one week per month.
Critique of Cycle Syncing
01:04:12
Speaker
If you have running performance goals, you need to endurance train regularly, not just for one week per month. um So clearly, this is just a terrible idea from ah programming perspective that no coach who knows anything about exercise would endorse.
01:04:32
Speaker
Right. Because clearly, if you're doing you're changing, fundamentally changing the type of exercise you're doing multiple times during every single month. It's crazy. It makes no sense.
01:04:44
Speaker
Second, these programs ah sort of present themselves as your cycle is 28 days. You have these very equal quadrants, right?
01:04:57
Speaker
So day one to seven, you're going to do this. And then seven to 14, you're going to do this. And it's because of these hormones. And it'll make you feel this way. And then this hormone profile. And it's going to make you feel this way. And this is why we're giving you this program.
01:05:10
Speaker
Having measured hormones, tracked cycles, tracked ovulation in many, many women in over many, many cycles, I can tell you I've only ever seen that pretty picture with the diagram that you find if you Google it on the internet once in one person can ever.
01:05:31
Speaker
So many of us do not have 28 day cycle. Some of us have 21 day or 35 day and maybe it's not even the same from cycle to cycle.
01:05:43
Speaker
Furthermore, even if you do have a 28-day cycle, you might ovulate much earlier or much later than that middle day 14. And if you do, your hormone fluctuations are in no way matching this cookie-cutter recommendation.
01:06:00
Speaker
So A, it just doesn't make sense because you need consistency if we want adaptation, and B, if you're doing one of these programs, I guarantee your hormones aren't even aligned with this diagram or you know pretty picture you've been presented with. So sims Sim said in the Huberman Lab podcast that she thought that women should be tracking their cycles so that they can be more aware of fluctuations.
01:06:29
Speaker
I don't know that I've heard of her And I'm not like a Stacey Sims expert by any means, but like I don't know that I've heard her promote programs specifically geared toward these different phases of the cycle, although I know there are a lot of people online that are.
01:06:46
Speaker
But she, in the Huberman Lab podcast, with it was, again, classic Sims, very contradictory statements like... There's just not enough research on this or all the research has been done on college-age women. And you know, the real problem is that we don't know if women are ah ovulating.
01:07:03
Speaker
So I don't like the data out there on this. I don't think it's very strong. Therefore, it's too individual to say, but women really need to be tracking their cycles because these are the types of performance outcomes you're probably going to see. And it was I was just like, because the truth is...
01:07:20
Speaker
it um I don't feel that I really do need to be tracking my cycle. like If I don't get my period for a while, I'm going to be like, yo, doc, what's up with me? Because I haven't got my period in a while. But I feel like I can just kind of pay attention day to day to how I'm feeling.
01:07:40
Speaker
Based on all the things going on in my life. But like, what do what do you think? Because i don't I don't want to misrepresent Sim's stance on cycle syncing, but she does appear to think that it's very important that women track their cycles to be able to know why they're experiencing these performance outcomes in their training. And then also how to fuel. That was another part of her advice was like, now because now in this phase, you're going to know like you need to be eating more carbohydrates and like this and many grams more. And I'm like, I don't know how many carbs I'm eating any day of the day, like damn week or half the time. I don't even know when I'm going to get my period. So, and then 70% of women aren't exercising. I'm just like, wow. Yeah.
01:08:26
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, I have heard the the claims of estrogen is anabolic and progesterone is catabolic, and therefore you should change your protein intake as well.
01:08:40
Speaker
and huh It's interesting because um after she did that podcast and said, you know, there's no high quality um data in this, guess who published a high quality study on this? Yours truly. And...
01:08:56
Speaker
No response at all. Nothing. No acknowledgement because it doesn't support the narrative. It shows there's no difference when you do track ovulation and when you do take blood every single week. And when you do get in there and take a muscle biopsy, you mean, you you can't do it more scientifically than I did it Yeah. um And comparing one woman to herself because we did it in the high estrogen phase and the high progesterone phase and compared, you know, you to you in both phases. And so if there was a difference, we would have found it and we did not. Yeah.
01:09:33
Speaker
I find that, I mean, the only reason you should be tracking your your cycle is to know, oh, I'm going to get my period next week and maybe go get some tampons. Yeah, because I'm going on vacation and I want to wear white pants or whatever. Like, yeah, that's when that's when I find it useful.
01:09:51
Speaker
Yeah. Or if you're actively attempting to get pregnant, it would be useful to know. Yes. Then too. Exactly. Yes. It's interesting because I i hear people say, like, i I feel, you know, during ovulation, insert whatever, or during my luteal phase, I blank.
01:10:09
Speaker
If it was so intuitive that you could just know when you're ovulating, we wouldn't have fertility issues. You wouldn't need to track ovulation. it You don't feel yourself ovulating. You don't feel your progesterone increasing. You know you have your period, and that's sort of where it starts and ends. Yeah. other thing too is like, it does knowing does knowing change what you're going to do?
01:10:35
Speaker
Should it change what you're going to do I ran up my first marathon a few days before I got my period. and the story goes that I should have maybe performed worse on my first marathon.
01:10:46
Speaker
and even if I had been running my 10th marathon, there's no way I would have known if the reason I ran worse on my 10th marathon was because I was about to get my period. um So like, it's like fine if it if it does make a difference. It's fine if like you do want to track. It's fine if you do notice that you feel different at different phases. But like, what's going to probably influence what you decide to do day to day with exercise is how you generally feel based on a myriad of factors, right? Like, not just your period, but like everything else going on in your life.
01:11:25
Speaker
So that's exactly the point. And and the the problem, too, is that it makes everything about your hormones. And so now we've just been reduced to a hormone profile when there are so many reasons why I don't feel like going to the gym today or my appetite is all over the place or, you know, I just don't.
01:11:49
Speaker
don't feel very motivated or I'm in a bad mood. And they might be because i didn't sleep well last night or my husband pissed me off or i haven't been ah um consistent with my diet or I'm just really stressed out about this thing at work. And then to make it all about, oh, it's because I'm in my follicular phase Why?
01:12:13
Speaker
it ignores all of those other things that make us human. And, yeah you know, I kind of feel this the same thing about, ah you know, we we start tracking all these metrics of I need this this aura ring to track my sleep. Why? I know if I slept poorly last night. Yeah.
01:12:27
Speaker
Thank you. Because I don't feel good. Yes. so Thank you i got a i got a whoop for like a month and I hated it because in the morning it would be like, you slept real bad. And I'd be like, i know. And then it would say, try not to do too much today. I'm like, that's not an option. Like, would you what? And it just stressed me out.
01:12:45
Speaker
And it's also sometimes these recommendations make us question or second guess how we feel. And so it kind of takes the agency away from you. And you should be able to say, ah you know, whether I do or don't feel my best today, I'm still going to go to the gym. yeah um and Not every workout is an A plus and that's fine. Yeah. But I I think, I mean, I hear that the subjective experience about how different cycle phases or being on your period affects performance, it is so all over the place. There are some people that say, oh, I PR all the time on the first day of my period. And other people say, oh, I have just such debilitating cramps. I would never go to the gym. And so putting any sort of label of expect to feel bad, expect to perform worse,
01:13:34
Speaker
That's harmful messaging because the psychological implications of just telling you to plan to perform worse or feel worse. Why are we doing that? Right. You know, if we run into and a situation where we don't feel very motivated or we have really bad symptoms, then let's respond if and when that happens. We don't need to, you know, pre-plan for it.
01:13:58
Speaker
Right. And also it might be having like an acebic effect where it's like, you tell me I'm going to feel terrible, i'm going to perform badly. Then I expect I'll feel terrible and perform badly. Yeah. and And it might have nothing to do with your physiology. Yeah. And conversely, you might expect to perform well because of the phase you're in. And then you get to the gym and like, it's just not happening.
01:14:17
Speaker
And you're like, but I should be performing well. what's going on? I'm just going to force this one and like perform well, gal darn it. And you know, you might end up like overdoing because you have this expectation of what's going to happen. And I find that that's, that's usually a mistake with training is to like expect something to happen. Right.
01:14:34
Speaker
Should be responsive, I think, rather than predictive a lot of the time. And then you're led to believe that, you know, you need special seeds during different cycle phases or something because, you know, clearly your hormones are broken because you're not performing as well during that phase.
01:14:50
Speaker
Special seeds? Oh, you don't know about seed cycling. No. What's that? Yeah. So seed cycling. Does this have to do with seed oils being bad? is that's These are no that, you know, during so a certain phase, you should be consuming flax seeds and then pumpkin seeds.
01:15:10
Speaker
And these are going to balance your hormones.
01:15:16
Speaker
That's not is that a Stacey Sims claim? No. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That sounds a little wackadoodle. I mean, I'm sure list some listeners right now are like, I've heard that. Yeah. All right. There is a large seed cycling community. Okay. I got to go look that up. Yeah. All right. Should we rapid fire?
01:15:35
Speaker
So it's like seed cycle, not soul cycle. Seed cycle. right. Yeah. So how about rapid fire? Yeah. So so there's no, this is not a game show and there are no rules, but the idea here is that you answer.
01:15:48
Speaker
That's not true. There are rules. These are the rules. You get a five word count minimum. No, yeah we have some rapid hard questions. we We want just, if possible, a pretty quick, short answer.
01:16:00
Speaker
Hopefully the questions will permit that. The first one is about creatine because creatine is now being widely promoted for women, especially for muscle growth, but also for cognitive health and aging.
01:16:12
Speaker
Is there evidence that supports daily supplementation with creatine as being especially beneficial for women? Not especially beneficial for women. If we think about getting that set of 10 and you can't get the 11th rep, maybe starting creatine daily helps you get that 11th rep.
01:16:32
Speaker
And that's sort of where the the benefits start and stop. All the claims about cognition are pulling from data and diseased populations, people with traumatic brain injuries, people with Alzheimer's, people with clinical depression,
01:16:45
Speaker
And that's really interesting research. It doesn't mean it's a brain booster yeah for it and everyone else. That would be like maybe physiological plausibility, but mostly just speculative at this point.
01:16:57
Speaker
Right. And when we think about supplementation in general, it's we are deficient in something, and so we're supplementing to bring it back up. And so if you're already at a you know baseline of this, then it doesn't mean that more is going to be better. and I think that's just – we're missing that in the supplement conversation. Yeah, that's very – that's a good one.
01:17:16
Speaker
All right, weighted vests, weighted vests. Are they doing anything useful for women, or is it another piece of exercise equipment like ankle weights – That will possibly go out of favor in a few years.
01:17:30
Speaker
What's your take on weighted vests? If you are wearing a weighted vest to do squats or lunges, okay. If you are going for a walk wearing the weighted vest and expecting it to be beneficial for muscle, bone, or fat loss, you've been lied to.
01:17:50
Speaker
Okay. Weighted vests, basically weights you can wear. Yeah. So like if you're doing squats and lunges, you could also just hold like ah a barbell or a dumbbell and kind of get the same effect. Is that fair to say? Yes. And importantly, we talked about how progression over time, it was really important. So if you're wearing your vest and that is challenging now, then you're probably going to need a heavier vest.
01:18:13
Speaker
So now you have a closet full of vests. And and wearing it is only going to be effective for certain exercises. you You might see people bench pressing wearing a weighted vest. I don't know what they're doing. Yeah. Not going to do much for your biceps. Yeah. Okay.
01:18:32
Speaker
All right. This is a personal one and I'm actually finally over it and understanding, but ah is the collagen that I'm putting in my coffee doing anything for me at all?
01:18:43
Speaker
No, but I know you probably like the flavor and the texture because whenever I talk about collagen, people say, but it tastes good. so That's fine. Is it hurting? No. I mean, your bank account maybe. Yeah, exactly. I know. I'm coming to terms with this and i'm I'm breaking up with collagen, but it's a tough one for me.
01:19:03
Speaker
Okay. Is there any research linking perimenopausal hormonal shifts to increased musculoskeletal injury risk? like specifically because we have claims about this from sims is are are there higher rates of plantar fasciitis and frozen shoulder amongst perimenopausal uh or postmenopausal women
01:19:23
Speaker
oh i i don't know the answer to that linked specifically to menopause um ah And the the frozen shoulder stuff is really outside my area. So I i i wouldn't be confident answering that question.
01:19:45
Speaker
All right. Spoken like a true scientist. Yes. Thank you. um Okay. Once and for all, do we need one gram per pound of body weight protein intake?
01:19:58
Speaker
If you like eating that much protein, that's fine. It's not harmful. um But no, the the benefits really come from when we go from the RDA, which everyone agrees is too low, that's 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight to about 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight. So that bump does help.
01:20:20
Speaker
Importantly, the resistance training is the stimulus for muscle growth and the protein intake is just going to optimize that. o But really anywhere in the kind of 1.2, 1.4, 1.6 grams per kilogram um is sufficient and anything above and beyond that Do it if you like it. Do it if it helps with satiety, if maybe you're on a fat loss diet. But otherwise, that yeah, these these claims are quite high, unnecessarily high.
01:20:51
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Good. Good to know. Okay. These are true or false questions, right? True or false? Women are not small men.
01:21:02
Speaker
ah It's a trick question. It's true. You know, it's true. um um But no notre not relevant for any of the conversations we've had today. but True or false? Women need a different approach to training and exercise than men.
01:21:22
Speaker
False. Thank you. True or false? If you don't eat within ah half an hour of waking up, your body will start eating your muscles. False. True or false? Cortisol is the devil.
01:21:37
Speaker
False. Again, justice for cortisol. Justice for cortisol. ah True or false, lifting heavy weights will help women discover that they don't need a man to carry things for them.
01:21:51
Speaker
Sure, that's true.
01:21:54
Speaker
True or false, some women are large men.
01:22:01
Speaker
I think we've established that that that could also be true. Again, maybe not relevant, but yeah. True or false, water will not hydrate you unless you add one sixteenth teaspoon of salt to it.
01:22:15
Speaker
This is totally false. I mean, if the only reason that you need to be adding to your water or concerned about electrolytes is if you are doing excessive amounts of exercise or exercising in the heat, things like that. um And, you know, you're sweating a lot. But ah these are situations where you're losing body weight because you're sweating so much.
01:22:35
Speaker
um Otherwise, just drink regular water. That also sounds kind of gross. Yeah. i mean say Would you say that this is not, this is me like breaking the true or false rule and just asking a follow up question.
01:22:46
Speaker
um Would you say that is suggesting to all women that they add one sixteenth of salt to every glass of water they drink, would you call that irresponsible advice for any reason?
01:22:59
Speaker
I would, because again, there's there's no reason for that. um and
01:23:07
Speaker
ah It's just another example of making things more complicated. and And now we're making drinking water more complicated than what's left. Is it also possibly true that many women get more than enough salt in their food?
01:23:23
Speaker
A hundred percent. Like I said, this is only an issue if you're some, I mean, this is a small percent of of people and you will know if it's you because you are a high performance athlete who is losing a lot of body weight through sweat and then you might need electrolytes. Yeah.
01:23:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right. Thank you. So, so we wanted to do sort of a summary question. One of the things Laurel and I on this podcast, what we try to do when we talk about research and evidence,
Evolution of Women's Fitness Narratives
01:23:55
Speaker
especially about women, is to make sure that we're not talking about it in a vacuum, that we bring in the historical and the social context that shapes women's experiences with exercise and with health advice.
01:24:10
Speaker
And Sims pushes back against fitness advice that has historically emphasized the aesthetic ideal of keeping women thin or small, right? Don't lift heavy, don't get bulky, you'll look like a man.
01:24:22
Speaker
And we see that as a positive shift, right? But she then replaces it with this very highly highly specific, often un-evidenced rules about how women should train and eat.
01:24:36
Speaker
And in our opinion, we think that her message has resonated so strongly because Number one, it acknowledges that women have been told to focus on appearance at the expense of their health. Number two, it acknowledges that women have been left out of research historically.
01:24:51
Speaker
But also, number three, it offers something that powerfully appeals to the algorithm, right? The attention economy, which is this hyper-specific protocols aimed at people, both when men and women. So, you know, Huberman largely for men and now Stacey Sims largely for women.
01:25:13
Speaker
Would you agree with this, that that's part of why she is so popular is that this this idea that you need to be so hyper-specific in everything you're doing for your fitness and nutrition is important and were you know it's very sellable on social media?
01:25:28
Speaker
And then here's the real question. Overall, do you think that her work has done more good than harm or more harm than good?
01:25:38
Speaker
I think it resonates with people because it makes you feel seen. You know, it's, oh, this is for women. This is for me. ah Finally, someone's paying attention to me.
01:25:52
Speaker
And i i understand that appeal. However, when you decide to target women in a way that sounds really authoritative and and sounds really evidence-based, but truly isn't, then you're doing such a disservice.
01:26:19
Speaker
Because when you make exercise confusing and overly complicated, then you're not lowering the barrier to enter.
01:26:31
Speaker
And i think that's what we need right now. We need more people who are interested in prioritizing their health and prioritizing their fitness. And That means making recommendations that are effective and simple and that and sustainable and appropriate for that individual.
01:26:54
Speaker
So I think ultimately this does a lot of harm because when you present yourself as a scientist but share information that isn't evidence-based, how can the community trust you?
01:27:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like she um has done a really good job of appealing to emotion. Yeah. But she then uses that, like winning people over in that way to then sell a lot of ideas and advice that, yeah, belie her credentials because she's not using evidence to do it. it's very
01:27:46
Speaker
It's very confusing. And that's all I'll say about that. And it sounds like she has some secret, right? Like she knows something that the rest of us don't because who would say all of these things, you know, if if they didn't have.
01:28:00
Speaker
yeah um and that's the really, really unfortunate part that people need to remember. if they If these things were true, we would all be recommending them. We would all be sharing them. They would be the standard parts of of of our messaging from the scientific community.
01:28:18
Speaker
When someone comes out and they're the only one saying it, and then, of course, you have people who parrot that message because they're consuming it from the source. Mm-hmm.
Marketing Tactics in Fitness Industry
01:28:27
Speaker
That's a big red flag.
01:28:30
Speaker
Because what? Am I going to gatekeep the good advice for women? Of course not. If there was a difference, if you really shouldn't be doing facet training or zone two or high rep resistance training, whatever it was, I would tell you um because I want to be helpful.
01:28:46
Speaker
ah But then that's the disappointing part is Not only are you misleading people, but we're all here pointing it out and you're continuing to double down on these messages and instead of engaging with the community. And it would be one thing to say, um oh I interpret this a little bit differently than you. Let's have a discussion about it and see where we disagree.
01:29:14
Speaker
and i that's how we move forward as a scientific community. Discourse is key. Collaboration is key to what we do. When we have somebody like this who refuses to engage with the scientific community but is so influential in the fitness space, we have a real problem because it's such an uphill battle for science now. Yeah. Right.
01:29:39
Speaker
and And I'm not an expert in science or marketing, but it it it it seems from to my perspective that she plays very well by the rules of marketing, which is name the problem. name it very specifically. It's okay if it doesn't actually exist, but you have to tell the story and it has to be believable and then sell the solution. And the solution
Lauren's Work and Addressing Misinformation
01:29:58
Speaker
has to be very specific to the problem. And the problem has to be very resonant with the audience that you're trying to capture. Yeah.
01:30:08
Speaker
And unfortunately, the things that work, the boring basics don't accomplish any of what you just Well, you're not going to differentiate yourself in the marketplace. if those are your solutions. So then how are you going to have the competitive edge?
01:30:23
Speaker
Right? yeah
01:30:26
Speaker
Well, Lauren, thank you so much thanks for coming on the show and sharing your valuable insights with us, your expertise. um Where can people find you? Because I'm sure they're going to want to Yes.
01:30:42
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. This was fun. I'm on Instagram at DrLaurenCS1. If you're interested in long-form research breakdowns, you can check out the Mass Research Review.
01:30:54
Speaker
And I co-host a podcast with my friend Eric Trexler called Front Page Fitness, where we talk shit about fitness headlines. It is hepper in some education. and Listen, if you want good banter, check out Front Page Fitness. They have the banter on lock. It is very good.
01:31:12
Speaker
Yeah. and I am not lying when I say it's my absolute favorite podcast of the moment. And every time a new one pops up, I'm like, yes, they're going to talk shit about something and I can't wait.
01:31:24
Speaker
Awesome. All right. Well, thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. are
01:31:33
Speaker
That was a very rich conversation. i feel that there are so many takeaways in there that are very clarifying and that I think go a long way toward cleaning up at least some of the mess online.
01:31:46
Speaker
It was very, yes, that was a very satisfying conversation. Whenever I get to talk to someone who also agrees that all this nonsense and jargon and supplements and selling and marketing and grifting is just total horseshit,
01:32:01
Speaker
I'm like, yes, we're not the only ones saying it. Other people out there also agree. yeah and one of the things that I really enjoy about her presentation just generally is she is able to take these kind of complicated concepts and make it very easy for the layperson to understand, right? She's really good at distilling complex ideas into actual, reasonable, actionable takeaways.
01:32:30
Speaker
And I think that, I mean, the biggest takeaway for me was like, it doesn't have to be so complicated, ah which is not the message we get a lot of the time for women. Yeah. Yeah, and we reached out to her ahead of time to ask her if she would be okay with speaking directly to claims made by Stacey Sims. In other words, we were like, we are going to name the source of these claims unless you are uncomfortable with that.
01:32:53
Speaker
yeah In which case, we will just focus on the claims because i think that's... should be based
Hesitation in Disputing Misinformation
01:32:59
Speaker
on the person's consent. and And I would never want to put a professional and a bad situation on a podcast episode and start assuming that they're comfortable talking about another scientist or researcher without first checking in. And she was like, oh, I'm totally fine with that. I was like, yes. She's like, no problem.
01:33:15
Speaker
yeah But we have, I mean, I was in the DMs of another scientist who is pushing back in a similar way as as Lauren is against Stacey Sims claims and you he, you know, he blurred out Stacey Sims' face in a clip. And I was like, okay, what is going on here? Because I find that these other scientists and professionals out there are kind of tiptoeing around the fact that it's coming from Sims. It's so clearly coming from Sims.
01:33:39
Speaker
yeah I just popped into a Z. I was like, is there a reason, you know, why you're not just saying that it's Stacey Sims? I feel like it's maybe important to to to call out her brand and maybe call into question her brand so that yeah people who maybe aren't as up on the science can at least identify that information coming from Stacey Sims is being called into question by other experts, by other scientists, and that might at least create some doubt, which would be good, right?
01:34:05
Speaker
and And he said that actually he gets harassed yeah in his DMs by her followers. I was like, well, that doesn't surprise me at all. yeah And that sucks. And I know it' was like, I completely understand why you would then be hesitant yeah to call her out. But like Lauren's like, yeah, it's fine.
01:34:22
Speaker
that Well, yeah, i actually I actually did the same thing. I asked ah another podcaster who did an episode where they were clearly talking about her work, but they did not name her. And I asked him the same thing because I was curious. I was like, is this something that's happening to everybody?
01:34:39
Speaker
And that person wrote back and said he felt his job was really to just question the data, but not get into calling out people. And I was like, I mean, that's fair. it's fine. It's a fine boundary.
01:34:51
Speaker
Yeah. Like, I think it's fair that everybody gets their own boundaries, right? like Absolutely. Absolutely. You're not supposed to do something just because it's if that it's going to make you feel uncomfortable or Evidently, you know, get you some harassment in your DMs.
01:35:02
Speaker
I'm all here for the DM harassment. I think it's hilarious because it's just such like, it's sort of like when when the Buff Bones followers got mad at us, I got a lot of DMs from that. And I'm like, you're so clearly like just ostrich head in the sand.
01:35:20
Speaker
Or like the Stu McGill stuff, right, where his followers are known to be rabid. So I'm excited. I think that, you know, doctors, scientists who are doing hard work, you got to choose what hill you're going to die on, what what fish you're going to fry, you know, insert whatever other analogy you want to.
01:35:39
Speaker
And if you don't
Experts' Role in Disputing Misinformation
01:35:40
Speaker
have the personal energy to be dealing with the blowback, the the the personal blowback from calling out a person, attaching the claims to the person, right, the teachings to the teacher,
01:35:50
Speaker
then that's fine. But I also think that there is a lot of value when experts like doctors and scientists take a stand against other experts absolutely and scientists and actually say their name, right?
01:36:02
Speaker
Like, yeah we think that what you're saying lacks scientific evidence, credibility. It calls into question what you're about and whether or not you're actually truly trying to help people.
01:36:15
Speaker
And we think that's wrong. And it's, I think, completely appropriate for a scientist and a doctor to take a moral stance, even though that might not be squarely within the realms of their field of study, which is science, right? Like it it now starts to drift into ethics. But we're people at the end of the day, and and this is information that's having a human cost. And therefore, if you are capable of of taking that stance, I think it's helpful when someone like Dr. Colenzo Semple comes on ah podcast and is like, look, what this person is saying is just not true. And it's
Future Episode Preview
01:36:47
Speaker
you know, concerning. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. All right. We are going to be sharing yet another episode with you around Stacey Sims, the woman, the myth, the legend, the person who Sarah likes to call patient zero for so many of the thought viruses that are spreading rapidly. And we are calling this Make Stacey Sims Make Sense.
01:37:16
Speaker
We're going unpacking a lot of the information shared by Dr. Kalenzo Semple in this episode and bringing in our strong opinions loosely held about our experiences listening to Sims. We might be sharing some direct quotes from her from her interviews so that you can hear her say it and taking apart the psychosocial aspects of her claims in addition to the science. Yeah, I'm really excited. We have a lot of material for we do for that episode, which we have not recorded yet.
01:37:48
Speaker
So this this has been our project, right? We've been working on these episodes three months in advance of their publication. So Sarah and I are deep down the rabbit holes of separating fact from fiction, learning a lot about female physiology, exercise physiology. It's it's fun. I love that. yeah I love this shit.
01:38:03
Speaker
My husband's like, so how's it going? I'm like, I'm doing exactly what I should be doing with my life right now. ah He will have just seen me furiously commenting in a flame war on Instagram about some particular claim.
01:38:18
Speaker
And then he'll be like, so how's it going? I'm like, I am living my best life right now. like Yeah. We were talking in the intro about the whole idea of the Dharma talk. This is your Dharma talk path.
01:38:30
Speaker
What is Dharma again? It's a vocation. What is it? Oh gosh. Yeah. Dharma is your path. I think. My
Debate as a Learning Tool
01:38:36
Speaker
path. Yeah, you're right. Oh, hang on. The eternal inherent... Oh, a cosmic law underlying right behavior and social order. well I wouldn't go that far then.
01:38:50
Speaker
That's just what Google AI said. i know I get what you're saying. I love to disagree as a tool for learning. Or i like to take a stance that is potentially opposing in some manner in order to explore a topic. And I've grown up, and we've talked about this, like I was raised in a house where... we argued for fun and right we adopted stances. We didn't maybe truly completely agree in, but we would argue that side kind of like a debate club, right? Like just in in order to be able to take apart an argument and look at all the sides of it and, you know, find ways to weaken it or strengthen it. And I think that's essentially what we do on these podcasts.
01:39:35
Speaker
Definitely. Definitely. At least that's how, how it's kind of evolved. So it's fun. It's fun for me. Yeah. All right, folks. Well, this is a we will see you next week. All right. We will see you week.