Welcome to Episode 67 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this episode, Laurel and Sarah discuss what current science, versus outdated advice and conventional wisdom, have to say about the causes and solutions for sacroiliac joint (SIJ) pain. Learn what research says about whether or not the SIJ is an inherently robust or fragile structure, whether things like lots of stretching in yoga or joint laxity during pregnancy contribute to its instability, and what therapists can and cannot reliably know about the causes of SIJ pain.

You will learn:

 * The anatomy and biomechanics of the SIJ.
 * How Sarah differentiates between low back pain and SIJ pain with her patients.
 * What joint incongruency is and what therapists can and cannot know about joints through palpation.
 * What amount of force is required to dislocate the SIJ.
 * What SIJ form and force closure are, and how they are used to explain SIJ pain.
 * Some common explanations, assessments, and treatments for SIJ pain that lack evidence.
 * Why muscle testing is an unreliable way to assess muscle strength or weakness.
 * The problem with muscle imbalance theories.
 * How upper and lower cross syndrome theories —the idea that muscles can be “locked short” and “locked long”— has since been replaced by more contemporary research.
 * What evidence-based tools we have to address SIJ pain.

And more!

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024! It’s the only place you’ll get a discount on the course.

Episode 21: Is the SI Joint Painful Due to Instability? [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-21-is-the-si-joint-painful-due-to-instability/id1614469934?i=1000583923774]

Evidence-Based Diagnosis and Treatment of the Painful Sacroiliac Joint [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582421/]

The sacroiliac joint – Victim or culprit [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1521694219300178]

A radiostereometric analysis of movements of the sacroiliac joints during the standing [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10703111/]

Clinical tests of the sacroiliac joint [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10688957/].

Effects of mobilization treatment on sacroiliac joint dysfunction [https://www.scielo.br/j/ramb/a/8hBVFwg6MQnCryPRcHqVWbJ/?lang=en]

Association between the serum levels of relaxin and responses to the active straight leg raise [https://breathe.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/V%C3%B8llestad-2012.pdf]

High-velocity, low-amplitude manipulation (HVLA) does not alter three-dimensional position of sacroiliac joint [https://www.bodyworkmovementtherapies.com/article/S1360-8592(19)30194-9/abstract]

Effects of mobilization treatment on sacroiliac joint dysfunction syndrome [https://www.scielo.br/j/ramb/a/8hBVFwg6MQnCryPRcHqVWbJ/?lang=en]

Episode 67: Popular Explanations for SI Joint Pain are Wrong, Says Science

Welcome to Episode 66 of the Movement Logic podcast! This episode is Part 3 of our Dismantling Long and Lean series. In this episode, Sarah and Laurel discuss the origins of Pilates, Barre, and yoga, and the connections between each movement method’s origins and the concept of a Pilates body, a Barre body, and a yoga body.

In this episode you will learn:

 * The Pilates origin story, including its clear cut relationship to ballet and the ‘dancer body’
 * The problematic origin of the dancer body in the 1960s in New York and its influence on Pilates and barre
 * The Barre origin story and the Lotte Berk Method
 * How Lotte Berk’s approach was sanitized for future iterations
 * Whether the teacher and the teachings can be separated
 * Laurel and Sarah’s experiences with the yoga body in their teacher trainings
 * Some essential differences between the yoga body and the Pilates or Barre body
 * What we can all do going forward to dismantle this patriarchal dominance over womens’ bodies

And more!

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024! It’s the only place you’ll get a discount on the course plus fun free bonus content along the way.

Reference Links:

Maintenance Phase: Pilates episode [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/maintenance-phase/id1535408667?i=1000619240021]

1962 Sports Illustrated article [https://robertwernick.org/articles/pilates.htm]

The Predatory Genius: what do we do when great artists are also moral monsters [https://www.commentary.org/articles/terry-teachout/the-predatory-genius/#:~:text=It%20became%20Balanchine's%20informal%20policy,or%20out%E2%80%94of%20the%20theater.]

Pilates Anytime: What is a Pilates body? [https://www.pilatesanytime.com/blog/more/what-is-a-pilates-body]

Lotte Berk Website [https://www.lotte-berk.com/]

GX United: The down and dirty history of barre fitness [https://gxunited.com/blog/history-barre-fitness/#:~:text=Barre%20fitness%20first%20took%20shape,'t%20irritate%20the%20injury%E2%80%9D.]

NY Times: From Shimmying to Standing on Your Head [https://www.nytimes.com/1972/03/24/archives/from-shimmying-to-standing-on-your-head-ways-of-shaping-up.html?_r=1]

The Cut: The Secret Sexual History of the Barre Workout [https://www.thecut.com/2018/01/barre-workout-sexual-history.html]

Dance Magazine: The Cult of Thin [https://www.dancemagazine.com/the-cult-of-thin/#:~:text=Despite%20calls%20for%20change%2C%20ballet's%20obsession%20with%20extreme%20thinness%20persists.&text=The%20Four%20Temperaments%2C%20a%20corps,herself%20wasn't%20hungry%20enough.]

Episode 66: Dismantling Long and Lean Pt. 3

Welcome to Episode 65 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this episode, Sarah is delving into the topic of exercising while injured. Should you? Shouldn’t you? How do you know when, how much, and what kind to do?

She takes you through a decision making strategy that will make this an easier question to tackle next time you are injured. Sarah also made a PDF Injury Decision Tree that you will receive as bonus content if you sign up for the 2024 Bone Density Course Wait List!

Caveat: This episode is not medical advice and should not be taken as such.

In this episode you will learn:

 * Acute vs Chronic injuries - what’s the difference when it comes to exercise
 * How different types of injury will impact your movement choices
 * Your body’s mechanism of injury response at a tissue healing level
 * The tissue healing timeline and what can speed it up or slow it down
 * The role pain plays in injury and how it’s not a 1:1 ratio of injury to pain
 * Situations where the best option actually is to rest
 * What types of exercise are best depending on your level of injury
 * Red flags to keep an eye out for that would require medical intervention

And more!

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024! It’s the only place you’ll get a discount on the course. You’ll also get the PDF Injury Decision Tree in a future email to the list.

Reference links:

Episode 1: Movement vs Exercise vs Sport [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000554108939]

Episode 30: Mastering Physical Literacy with Dr. Chris Raynor, MD [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000602230916]

Episode 62: Make McGill Make Sense [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000648175567]

Episode 65: How to Exercise Safely When You're Injured

Welcome to Episode 64 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this episode, Laurel is joined by non-diet kettlebell coach Damali Fraiser to talk about what it means to be an inclusive kettlebell coach. We also discuss why a coach's life experience and skills (and not their body) are their real business card. Finally, we get into silly certification tests that limit diversity in an industry that desperately needs more of it.

In this interview you will learn:

 * Why kettlebells are excellent tools for cultivating strength, power, and endurance.
 * How the shape of a kettlebell makes it uniquely effective for training stability and moving in multi-planar ways.
 * What it means to be a non-diet kettlebell coach.
 * What building body trust means, and how grasping at some ideal, future body can sabotage some people’s ability to relate to and trust the body they currently have.
 * What intersectionality is, and how understanding this concept can help us teach and coach in a way that is inclusive so that more people feel welcome in fitness.
 * A critical look at a popular kettlebell certification system, StrongFirst, and a test they impose as a barrier to entry for certifying coaches—the 100 kettlebell snatches in 5 minutes test.
 * How the fitness industrial complex negatively impacts folks who don’t conform to societal ideals and what we can do about it.

And more!

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024!

Reference links:

Damali Fraiser's website [https://liftoffstrength.ca/about]

Episode 64: Non-Diet Coaching & Silly Certification Tests with Damali Fraiser

Welcome to Season 4 and Episode 63 of the Movement Logic podcast! This is part 2 of a much requested series titled Dismantling Long & Lean. In part 2, Laurel and Sarah discuss the phrase "long and lean" from a science-based, as well as sociological and racial perspective. They cover whether or not you can actually make anyone’s body “longer” and/or “leaner” through formats like Pilates and barre. Additionally, they unpack the harm that appealing to this narrowly, aesthetically-idealized body shape has on students and teachers. 

You will learn:

 * Common code words used to show preference for thinness in exercise.
 * Is there a way to make limbs or muscles longer?
 * How do we change the shape of muscles?
 * Can we make muscles tone without making them bulky?
 * How hypertrophy   works and whether or not Pilates or barre are particularly effective for building muscle.
 * What does it mean to be bulky versus lean?
 * The constrained energy model for metabolism and how it explains why exercise is a poor tool for weight loss and why it’s more complex than calories in and calories out.
 * How human metabolism is a product of evolution, not engineering and more like a business on a budget rather than a car that runs on fuel.
 * How the science of metabolism explains why exercise is so important for long term health and longevity.
 * Whether building muscle makes you burn more calories at rest.
 * That fast and slow metabolism doesn’t mean what people think it does.
 * Whether or not you can burn fat specifically from “problem areas” on your body.
 * How the transatlantic slave trade and the rise of Protestantism influenced the way we think about fatness and thinness.
 * How fatphobia and a preference for thinness has been used to craft and reinforce racial, sexual, and socioeconomic hierarchies over the centuries.
 * Why “long and lean” is to the 1990s and 2000s as “white and nordic” was to the 1800s and 1900s.
 * Why using "long and lean" as a marketing ploy does harm to the teaching profession of Pilates and barre. 

And more!

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024!

Reference links:

Episode 60: Dismantling Long & Lean Pt. 1 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-60-dismantling-long-and-lean-part-1/id1614469934?i=1000644437847]

Burn: New Research Blows the Lid Off How We Really Burn Calories [https://amzn.to/3wnLD1b]…

Episode 43: Nutrition Facts vs. Fiction with Dr. Ben House, PhD [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-43-nutrition-facts-vs-fiction-with-dr-ben-house-phd/id1614469934?i=1000615113744]

Fearing the Black Body [https://amzn.to/3SAiNlX]…

Episode 63: Dismantling Long and Lean Part 2

Welcome to episode 62 of the Movement Logic Podcast. In this episode, Sarah and Laurel discuss the recent interview of Dr. Stu McGill on Dr. Peter Attia’s podcast, The Drive. This interview has sparked a lot of internet commentary, so we’re breaking it down for you into what we’re calling Make McGill Make Sense.

You will learn:

 * Who are McGill and Attia, and why Attia is interviewing McGill
 * McGill’s rigid (pun intended) views on powerlifters vs yogis and what each group should and should not do
 * Why McGill “doesn’t believe” in non-specific low back pain, a well documented and researched phenomenon
 * How the biopsychosocial model of pain doesn’t exist in his world view
 * Why his fearmongering and moralizing approach to movement has been so successful
 * How and why he leans into storytelling vs data around low back pain

And more!

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024!

Links:

Episode 29 The Cues We Use Part 1 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000601062119]

Episode 31 The Cues We Use Part 2 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000603256200]

Episode 34 The Cues We Use Part 3 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000606398152]

Episode 45 Injury and Safety in Strength and Yoga [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000616951700]

Episode 54 Alignment Dogma: Spine [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000627700757]

https://peterattiamd.com/stuartmcgill/

https://www.backfitpro.com/

https://rheumatology.org/patients/joint-replacement-surgery#

Lancet Study age of hip replacements [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28209371/]

Evidence for an Inherited Predisposition to Lumbar Disc Disease [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3028451/#:~:text=The%20RR%20for%20the%20development,to%20develop%20lumbar%20disc%20disease.]

Adam Meakins on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3LC_vTM3VJ/?igsh=dTExMXRmeXF5Z3Ey]

McGill Big 3 on YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA1Ve7FWqTY&list=RDQMpgkbSVn9g3c&start_radio=1]

Episode 62: Make McGill Make Sense

Welcome to Season 4, Episode 61 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this episode, Laurel explores whether strength training alone suffices for health and longevity. She compares training stress, intensity, and adaptations of strength training versus high intensity interval training (HIIT) versus cardiorespiratory endurance training. Discover how both HIIT and cardio are forms of conditioning, and why both strength and conditioning are necessary "weekly human maintenance habits" for preventing chronic disease and promoting longevity.

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024!

You will also learn:

 * What counts as exercise?
 * Does HIIT promote strength or cardiorespiratory endurance or both?
 * What is aerobic versus anaerobic conditioning?
 * What role does cardiorespiratory fitness play in our strength gains and what role does strength play in our cardiorespiratory fitness gains?
 * How strength training, HIIT, and cardio compare when considering the following: typical length of a session, work to rest ratios, relative intensities, common limitations to performance, and the specific adaptations each promotes.
 * Is strength enough for health and longevity?
 * Is walking conditioning?
 * Can the fatigue cost of HIIT interfere with our ability to exercise enough throughout the week?
 * What should we pay attention to specifically if we want to build strength with HIIT?
 * What’s the best way to structure weekly strength and conditioning workouts, specifically when we want to do both on the same day?

Reference links:

Episode 6: How Much ‘Should” You Exercise [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-6-how-much-should-you-exercise/id1614469934?i=1000569752396]

CDC guidelines on exercise [https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/basics/adults/index.htm]

Talk test [https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/basics/measuring/index.html#:~:text=A%20way%20to%20understand%20and,affects%20heart%20rate%20and%20breathing.&text=The%20talk%20test%20is%20a%20simple%20way%20to%20measure%20relative%20intensity.]

High-intensity interval training for health benefits [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6763680/]…

Episode 37: Plyometrics—Get More Bang For Your Bones [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6763680/]

Episode 46: How Often Should You Strength Trainlll? [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000617814442]

Episode 32: Load & Volume [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000604260759]…

Episode 9: What Are The Best Exercises for Strength? [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000574860372]

Episode 23: Do We Really Need 10,000 Steps…? [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000574860372]

 Episode 61: Putting Conditioning Back Into Strength & Conditioning

Welcome to Season 4 and Episode 60 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this much requested first part of a three-part episode series, Laurel and Sarah discuss the phrase long and lean from a historical and sociological perspective. They cover the idealized image of women through art with a historical gaze, then unpick the narrative around becoming long and lean, how diet and exercise became front and center for this impossible ideal, and where we are today with social media, photoshop, and AI in the mix.

You will learn:

 * How bad Medieval artists were at drawing human bodies
 * How the Renaissance ideal form was the exact opposite of long and lean
 * “Ideal” female forms through the 20th and 21st centuries
 * The inherent misogyny, internalized anxiety, and social pressure of long and lean
 * Whether the diet and exercise boom of the 1980s had anything to do with health
 * Why GOOP is indeed a four letter word
 * How ‘problem areas’ keep us busy objectifying our bodies and how this is a feature of our modern capitalist society

And more!

Sign up here to get on the Wait List for our next Bone Density Course [https://mailchi.mp/8c60a64eba9b/waitlist] in October 2024!

Reference links:

The Toast Looks Back: The Best Of Two Monks [https://the-toast.net/2016/06/15/the-toast-looks-back-the-best-of-two-monks/]

Met Museum [https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/teen-blog/renaissance-portrait/blog/the-ideal-woman#:~:text=Poetry%20written%20by%20the%20fourteenth,skin%2C%20and%20a%20long%20neck.]

https://greatist.com/grow/100-years-womens-body-image#1

https://www.worldometers.info/weight-loss/

Diet Drugs [https://www.nature.com/articles/nm0612-843#:~:text=The%20mid%2D1990s%20then%20saw,over%20serious%20heart%20valve%20problems.]

Fitness in the 80s [https://ussporthistory.com/2015/01/08/exercise-and-american-culture/#:~:text=As%20a%20result%2C%20nearly%20seven,80s%20%E2%80%9Cthe%20fitness%20decade.%E2%80%9D]

https://fitisafeministissue.com/2014/10/01/cankles-more-broken-body-parts-you-can-feel-bad-about-or-please-lets-just-stop/

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/beauty/fitness-wellbeing/news/a37546/problem-areas-your-body-fat-explained/

Latoya Shauntay Snell [https://www.instagram.com/iamlshauntay?igsh=MTJtMWZtdXR1eDgxbA==]

Roz the Diva [https://www.instagram.com/rozthediva?igsh=YXowZ2kwYzRmcHNr]

Roz was a guest in our podcast - listen here [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000580153924]

@fatbodyPikates [https://www.instagram.com/fatbodypilates?igsh=MXJiZ2tkbTE5ZW0zcg==]

Damali Fraiser [https://www.instagram.com/damali.fraiser?igsh=bXFveG1jcGswd3Rn]

Episode 60: Dismantling Long and Lean Part 1

Welcome to our supersized Episode 59 of the Movement Logic podcast and the final episode of Season 3! In this episode, Laurel and Sarah discuss certifications for movement professionals. Are they necessary? Are they useful? Do they help promote you, or just the brand? Should you be focusing on it so much?

You will learn:

 * Do certifications in the movement industry function to a means to ensure quality control and accountability the way that the equivalent does in a regulated industry
 * Do the tests measure meaningful and important qualities of a movement teacher or do they measure what is easy to measure
 * What are some drawbacks to certifications
 * What are some positive aspects of certifications
 * The differences between regulated and unregulated industries
 * Does promoting a course as ‘safe’ require any proof in an unregulated industry?
 * Can a certification course really claim to be a safer form of movement than any other?
 * Why are many teachers looking for certification in their continuing education classes?
 * The value of longer form, apprentice/student to teacher/mentor relationship versus a weekend training
 * That Yoga Alliance is not the evil overlord that so many seem to think it is
 * Does having letters after your name make you more credible or trustworthy?

Episode 48: Alignment Dogma - Pelvis [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000623137543]

Episode 54: Alignment Dogma - Spine [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000627700757]

Episode 58: Alignment Dogma - Shoulders [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/movement-logic-strong-opinions-loosely-held/id1614469934?i=1000630929460]

Visit our website www.movementlogictutorials.com [http://www.movementlogictutorials.com/] for more paid and free education!

Get on our mailing list [https://mailchi.mp/d08a96952bc5/movement-logic-newsletter-sign-up] to be kept in the know about upcoming courses.

Episode 59: Are You Certain You Need Certifications?

Welcome to Season 3 and Episode 59 of the Movement Logic podcast! In this episode, Laurel and Sarah discuss dogmatic beliefs and myths around the shoulders from the yoga, Pilates, and strength training worlds. We also discuss how given the fact that shoulder joint is a “complex” of many bones and joints, it’s much more useful that teachers keep their approach to teaching this area as simple as possible (and stop micro-managing their students shoulders!)

You will learn:

 * The bones and joints of the shoulder joint complex
 * Mant shoulder “fun facts”
 * The directions of movement of the shoulder
 * What horizontal abduction and adduction are
 * What scapular tilt/winging is and why it’s not a problem
 * How scapular movement often mirrors where we are reaching our hand to
 * What scapulohumeral rhythm is
 * That the shoulder blade’s path across the rib cage is curvilinear.
 * Simplifying how we talk about shoulder movement and function to either a push or a pull.
 * The relationship between shoulder posture and alignment and shoulder pain and injury
 * How it’s hard to think scientifically and very human to think un-scientifically
 * Why “shoulders back and down” is often (but not always!) an inefficient and counter-productive way to cue the shoulders
 * Why micromanaging shoulder posture doesn’t change posture long term.
 * Why “fixing” someone’s alignment in chaturanga doesn’t help them acquire the strength they’d need to build to be able to do chaturanga with optimal alignment
 * How scapular dyskinesis and scapular winging are different
 * The fine line between using movement to solve movement problems (which is inside of a movement teacher’s scope of practice) and then diagnosing problems for students and prescribing movement to fix it (which is outside of a yoga teacher’s scope of practice.)
 * How upper and lower cross syndrome is an outdated (but still very influential) model for explaining posture and offering solutions to that posture.

Visit our website www.movementlogictutorials.com [http://www.movementlogictutorials.com/] for more paid and free education!

Get on our mailing list [https://mailchi.mp/d08a96952bc5/movement-logic-newsletter-sign-up] to be kept in the know about upcoming courses.

Check out our Movement Logic Shoulders Tutorial [https://movementlogictutorials.com/movement-logic/shoulders/]

Shoulder Girdle Video [https://movementlogictutorials.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Shoulder-Girdle-Video.mp4]

Note: we cannot source the origin of this video. If you know the origin, please let us know!

Arthroscopic subacromial decompression for subacromial shoulder pain… randomised surgical trial [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29169668/]

Subacromial decompression surgery for rotator cuff disease [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30707445/]

Acromiohumeral distance and supraspinatus tendon thickness in people with shoulder impingement syndrome… [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34852803/]

Scapular dyskinesis [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ordE_6L3P0U]

Episode 58: Alignment Dogma - Shoulders

Welcome to the Movement Logic Podcast, with yoga teacher and strength coach Laurel Beversdorf, and physical therapist Dr. Sarah Court. With over 30 years combined experience in the yoga, movement and physical therapy worlds, we believe in strong ideas, loosely held – which means we’re not hyping outdated movement concepts. Instead, we’re here with up-to-date and cutting-edge tools, evidence and ideas to help you as a mover and a teacher. Music: Makani by Scandinavianz & AXM

Movement Logic: Strong Opinions, Loosely Held