Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Founders' Series - Shaun Gordon - Kiss Books
138 Plays6 years ago
Today's episode features founder and CEO Shaun Gordon of Kiss Books, an heirloom album company for professional photographers.
I've had the chance to get to know Shaun over the last few years through a year-long leadership program we both participated in, and more recently as we designed and built Kiss's new brand and website. Shaun's the kind of guy that's reflective and finds opportunities to invest in himself and his relationships—all of that is on display in this episode.
We chat about why him and his partner decided to build Kiss Books. But not before exploring his beginnings as a photographer and—an experience I wasn't aware of—owner of a brick-and-mortar photography equipment store. It was through his experience of shooting hundreds of sessions a year that he came to realize the need for an album company that was simple.
Check out the show notes at https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-shaun-gordon-kiss-fs/ for more information.
Recommended
Transcript
The Struggles of Creative Entrepreneurship
00:00:06
Speaker
The pressure that comes from doing these types of things, choosing to be a creative entrepreneur, a photographer, whatever level of business is you don't get to just be the photographer or just be like the guy that sells books. You know, there's so much that goes into it that I run into failure often still. And I have certain things that I'm learning that I run to like shame and fear that keep me from kind of like making the decision that I want to.
00:00:32
Speaker
And so I have to hash that out and recognize those tendencies as they're coming in, but in an unhealthy version.
Introduction of The Brands That Book Show and Guest
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to The Brands That Book Show, where we help creative, service-based businesses build their brands, manage their businesses, and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones, and today's interview is part of our founder series. Our founder series gives us the opportunity to interview founders and CEOs of companies that serve creative businesses. Today's guest is Sean Gordon. Sean Gordon is the co-founder and CEO of Kiss Books, an heirloom album company dedicated to creating a simple album process for photographers.
00:01:17
Speaker
All right, well, welcome,
Sean Gordon's Photography Journey
00:01:19
Speaker
Sean. Thank you for joining me on the Brands That Book podcast. And this is actually the first interview that we're doing for a different series called The Founders Series, where I get the opportunity to interview some of the founders and CEOs of businesses that serve the creative industry. Because as I got to know you and some others, your stories are just, I think, pretty fascinating and super interesting to hear about. And many of you, yourself included, have a background
00:01:47
Speaker
in the industry that you serve. So there's just so much that we can talk about. We start every interview by just kind of asking about that background. And so I was wondering, would you be willing to share with us what you were doing before you founded Kiss Books? Yeah, sure. I was a photographer for 15 years and that overlapped my career with Kiss, but that was why we started Kiss was because
00:02:14
Speaker
As a photographer, I was in Southern California, so there's no real off season. I now live in the Midwest and know what it's like to actually reschedule a photo shoot, wherein you don't do that a whole lot. But I was shooting around the clock all year long. I ended up shooting over 60 weddings multiple years. And that was just one of the issues was getting to product. There wasn't a lot of systems. I was filmed when I started just because there was no option of digital yet. And as the digital world came in, it just made sense to
00:02:43
Speaker
figure out systems and things like that to make it easier for the photographer for myself to even get to that product. And so, yeah, I was a photographer. I shot over 500 weddings. I would shoot, like I said, about 60 weddings a year. And some years I was shooting for multiple studios. So I'd shoot over 100 engagement sessions as well. I was just in the best place, I think, on the planet to do that with the golden light of California.
00:03:10
Speaker
shooting on the beach all the time, and it was something I didn't want to take for granted. I loved it. I was on the verge of burnout at times just because of the amount of weddings that I did, but I loved the creative side of entrepreneurism and just life. So I miss it sometimes. I retired a little over three years ago from shooting, but yeah, it was just a career that I loved.
00:03:33
Speaker
and was grateful to be a part of it before starting Kiss.
Celebrity Photography Experiences
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, just the volume of weddings and engagement sessions that you shot is crazy to me. I mean, Kristin and I, we've never had any associates or anything like that, and so our peak was probably around 40 weddings one year.
00:03:52
Speaker
And to us, that was just, I mean, even that was, you know, felt like too much. And the next year we decided, hey, we really have to scale back from shooting 40 weddings. And you were doing 60 and 100 engagement sessions. I couldn't even, you know, I don't know how you didn't get burned out. But you also, and you're not gonna bring this up, so I'm gonna bring it up for you. You got to photograph people like Peyton Manning.
00:04:13
Speaker
And I always joke around with you that you should just lead with that. Not even interested in the fact that you shot 500 weddings. When I heard that you shot, you got to shoot people like Peyton Manning, I was like, oh, okay, all right, tell me more. Yeah, yeah, that was here in the Midwest, actually. We got connected with a group. He does a children's hospital out here. So I'm shooting his event that he does a fundraiser for the St. Vincent Children's Hospital.
00:04:43
Speaker
And then we ended up shooting weddings and stuff like that, that his whole family was at. So Eli Manning was in one of the weddings that we photographed, um, down in New Orleans. Oh no, it was here in Indiana. The couple was from New Orleans. They had properties down there. So there's a lot of celebrities and like vice presidents and like secret service and stuff. We got into this. One of the things I'm trying to teach now, it's hard to teach confidence, you know, and, um, some people have a hard time selling product or showing up in the sales part of this job.
00:05:11
Speaker
And it's like when I didn't have to book weddings because kiss was doing so well, but I wanted to stay in touch with the industry. It's like, we could charge whatever. And it was really interesting. Like, I'd be like, there's no way we're worth this even. And just like, say, this is what we're shooting for. And they'd just book, you know, cause we were referral. It was the same thing. If I was through $3,500 all the way up to tens of thousands of dollars to photograph a wedding, it was like, it became, it came from a referral. They trusted me, all those types of things.
00:05:38
Speaker
So it was fun to work in all different levels of photography budgets because like I found out what my wheelhouse was and it was not when I was photographing like Peyton Manning and stuff like that. There was a season where for the nonprofit that they were raising money for that. We were just raising our price because we didn't want to do the event anymore. And they finally went in out of the direction because of the price, you know. And then it was like from his mouth like, hey, we want Sean and that team back because
00:06:08
Speaker
of what they bring to the table. So we brought an experience. You know, we were just taking photos that a lot of people can take, but we were creating an experience that worked for them, you know, and that's kind of what it was about for us always, which is why we could be busy and kind of charge different amounts and things like that. But yeah, it was, I don't lead with that very often. I don't get starstruck. Like I worked with him really closely and it was like, he's a celebrity. He's a quarterback all the time. He wants to run the show, whether it's a show or not.
00:06:37
Speaker
And he's very good at it, but sometimes he doesn't know everything that's going on too. You know, Sean, hurry up and I want to get through these photos. Like, can you go get the next group ready? And there's not like a line waiting out the door. They have time slots, but it was like, okay, this is cool. I get it. You know, he's pulled in all different directions. He's showing out that as well, you know, so.
00:06:56
Speaker
It was fun, but not as big a deal to me as it is to you. Yeah. Well, big pain-manning fan. Anyways, moving on. Maybe I should have led with this, but I want to talk a little bit about transitioning from photography into founding Kissbooks.
Kiss Books: Simplifying Album Creation
00:07:16
Speaker
But first, could you tell us what Kiss does and who it serves right now? And then we'll kind of backtrack and talk about that transition a little bit. Yeah.
00:07:24
Speaker
Manufacture photo books for professional wedding photographers. Mostly, 90% of them are wedding photographers. We're doing a lot more portraiture and things like that now. But we serve a professional creative. And so we actually have to validate all those. They kind of like, we don't interview or anything like that, but they send over the credentials to make sure because we're trying to protect the professional pricing-wise and all those types of things. Yeah, so we manufacture photo books and we also build software that serves that same product.
00:07:53
Speaker
So as a designer, you can communicate with your client in that as well and then goes to the ordering system. So we do software as well. Yeah, so it just kind of keeps it all in one place so that when you design your album, you can use that same software to send it to your client, but then also you use that software to order your album as well. So pretty seamless process there, it seems like.
00:08:16
Speaker
So going back to photography, your photographer, what specifically were the reasons why you wanted to start a album company? Yeah. I had investors in a camera store that I had bought. My son was getting to an age where he was possibly going to start playing sports. He is my creative and so he doesn't, he's in plays and does music and stuff like that.
00:08:43
Speaker
Um, but at the time I was like starting to think at 60 plus weddings a year that if I'm not shooting a weekend, it's rare, but when I don't, it means I'm going to pay for it in other weekends with two or three and a weekend. And so it was, uh, just a decision where I knew who I wanted to kind of like scale back and shooting 20 just didn't seem like enough to me, um, until I figured out some systems for selling other products. But I knew like the lifestyle of Southern California and things like that.
00:09:11
Speaker
At the time, I was actually pretty unhealthy chasing just that part of life, which was the financial side. And so I was like, I want to invest in other things so that I can have some weekends to where I could be at my kids, you know, sporting events or whatever and shoot less weddings type of a thing. So that's what I started to do the camera deal and it was like it was a storefront and we did like, you know, one hour photo type of a thing.
00:09:40
Speaker
And then I was a part of a lot of like online forums and things like that and saw a need for this particular product was like creating a system that makes it easier for the creative photographer to get to this product. Because back then I was like faxing in forms and I was selling a lot of books. But I was like this I want to hang this up because it's taking way too long. I mean the money is there.
00:10:05
Speaker
There's got to be a different way and that's kind of when we went into business doing that, you know, really creating a system more than inventing a new product or anything like that. And when, like,
The Genesis of Kiss Books
00:10:16
Speaker
were there other album companies, I mean, I assume there were other album companies in existence at the time because you were, and because printing products, I think, were a staple of the industry.
00:10:27
Speaker
much more so in some ways than they are even now, you know, with digital files and people who just, you know, that shoot and share mentality. So were there other album companies out there? Yeah, I had done tours of the one company that I was using, I used a couple companies. And I loved the process as well. I actually come from a printing background. What I say is my like my last real job before I
00:10:53
Speaker
had my own business. I ran a printing press. So I love print, color, creativity when it comes to those types of things. That's why I'm drawn to photography and printing and things like that. Um, but I do warehouse tours and I'm like, man, I love product. And so to see them building with their hands and all those types of things really like lit a fire in me where I was like, man, I think we can make the process to get to this handcrafted product better. And so yeah, there was other book companies, not as many as there is today, because now there's a lot like that can just be a marketing front and have a warehouse built for them.
00:11:22
Speaker
Um, but ultimately it was like, yeah, this is, uh, there was something here. They had, they had like, you know, probably like a thousand skews or a thousand options where I was like, Hey, I made my own version of kiss before kiss existed with one of these other companies. I was like, I'm going to offer these 10 colors and this, these two sizes. This is what my parent book looks like. I didn't want to show them all of the options that were available because a bride that just, you know,
00:11:51
Speaker
made a thousand decisions to get to her wedding, doesn't want to do that again after the fact for her book. It's like, here's this size book. What color do you want? Most of them ended up in like a black or brown leather, a very classic color. And it was more about the design. And so that is where we like really focus. Like how can we create a system that can focus on the design and the communication back and forth to get them to the finish line? Because the back and forth is really hard back then without digital.
00:12:17
Speaker
I'd meet with them in person. And I remember my first meeting like it was yesterday. I sat with this client for eight hours and then we had to schedule another appointment. I was like, okay, this is clearly not scalable. I need to figure this out. If I'm doing this 60 times a year, that's like months of my life that I'm doing just albums. Now I was making money doing it, but ultimately I was like, there has to be a better way. And so that was like the underlying
00:12:40
Speaker
bottleneck and you're always wanting to kind of like make things efficient or possible and that's where we came up with KISS. Yeah, that makes sense and it's so interesting to me that when you start limiting choices, right? That people A, end up, I think, end up being happier, you know, because they don't have to go through that overwhelm of figuring out from a thousand different possibilities what the one choice is that they want to make.
00:13:05
Speaker
And then in addition to that, it just streamlines the process that much more. When somebody has a thousand different choices, they're gonna take them a lot longer in making decisions. And I think photographers still struggle with that, where they send over options and then they're surprised when the bride takes two years to choose their album cover and this and that.
00:13:31
Speaker
So that's that's really interesting. So you had owned a storefront and then you decided to move to you decided you want to start this album company where the same investors today like were they okay with like oh hey where did you transition that company to the album company or did you start did you kind of just start over. I started over it was.
00:13:53
Speaker
Again, I was not healthy in leadership and things that I've worked a lot on since then. 10 years ago that we started Kiss, I was speaking at an event actually here in Indianapolis, which is where I live now and had started doing the books a little bit. And that's where I met my previous business partner. And so we had the idea of like, hey, he had a marketing background and a lot of skills that I didn't have at the time. And so we started to create Kiss as its own product.
00:14:23
Speaker
And this company was serving that other one, but the writing was on the wall really early. But it was a tough transition with me and my investors. And it's just one of those things. There was a lot of failure there on my part, on their part. And we wrestled through getting through that. But I had worked out a deal to get them out of their investments and get paid back and all those types of things. It was a he said, she said type of a thing. And it was just one of the toughest times that I had had
00:14:52
Speaker
in my business was working in that because I care so much about relationships, that it was definitely damaging that relationship, having to kind of like battle through, hey, I'm moving to focus just on this on kiss. And neither side was super happy about it. Like kiss, my business partner was like, seems like you're doing stuff for them. And they were like, it feels like you're doing stuff for that. So like, let's make a decision.
00:15:16
Speaker
And as I did that, both of them wanted me to lead that business and it was tough, very tough decision. And still to this day, I have a hard time with it, just that time of life. It's why I want to get healthy regularly, so I don't have to go through those types of times.
00:15:33
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And during that transition, or we're looking back at that transition rather, do you feel like you made the right decision? I mean, just from a business perspective, because I don't see a ton of camera stores anymore. There's not really the whole one hour photo thing. I know it still exists on some level, but it's not like you're driving around and you see a bunch of these camera shops anymore.
00:16:02
Speaker
you know, you go to Best Buy, you go on Amazon, you go on, you know, B&H or something online, but you're generally not dropping off rolls of film to be developed in an hour anymore. So do you feel like you made the right decision in that pivot to kiss? Yeah, I do.
Transition Challenges to Kiss Books
00:16:19
Speaker
It was like we went from there right into a warehouse and continue to do some of the stuff that we were doing because the locals
00:16:25
Speaker
Still liked to buy local, which still exists, but again, when it comes to technology and cameras and stuff, it is so easy to do research online. And this was in that kind of like time where digital was more well received, where everybody was okay with it by this point. And so it was like, it was very tough to be the small person on the block, you know, because I was down the street from a Costco and there was times where I would, they wanted to buy it for me, but Costco was literally selling the camera for less than what I bought it in my version.
00:16:55
Speaker
bulk for, you know, like I had to mark it up. It was literally less than what I could buy it for because I was buying 10 at a time, or whatever they're buying 1000 at a time, you know. And so it was like the writing was on the wall that I couldn't keep up with that. I didn't want to be Costco. I still don't like even with kiss, there's times where I go to these larger labs, I invest in relationships with other businesses, the big dogs in our industry. And I'm like, I don't want to do this. I want to do one thing laser focused and do it and
00:17:24
Speaker
The best, not just to do it the best, but so I can serve the people that choose to use us. Same thing, we buy local where we can, and we're really trying to manufacture a great product, but be able to invest in the relationship. And I just, like so many times, I would feel so spread thin if I was doing so many things that these big companies are doing.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah. So after you made the decision to transition to kiss full-time and you got out of your previous investment in the camera store, was it pretty much smooth sailing from there? No. It's kind of one of the things that you have to be okay with is the change and the failure that comes with entrepreneurship. I was just talking to a CEO that was transitioning out of a position.
00:18:19
Speaker
She said something along the lines of like, I just kind of want to go work for Starbucks right now because the pressure that comes from doing these types of things, choosing to be a creative entrepreneur, a photographer, whatever level of business, if you don't get to just be the photographer or just be like the guy that sells books, you know, there's so much that goes into it that you're, I run into failure often still. And I have certain things that I'm learning that I run to like shame and fear.
00:18:47
Speaker
that keep me from kind of like making the decision that I want to and so I have to hash that out and recognize those tendencies as they're coming in and but in an unhealthy version of me it's like I ran into failure more often because I was like thought you know a lot of it was pride and things like that as well that I was like having to prove myself to somebody and when I do that I'm not making the best decision for what I why I really started this business.
Learning the Manufacturing Process
00:19:13
Speaker
And so man, talk about like, I mean, just thing after thing, like learning to build a manufacturer, a book is like, it's like, there's people that have done it for decades for reading books and I would go to them and learn something from them. And then I'd go to the linen manufacturer and the paper mill and learn so much about every piece of this product and glue and all these things. And it was just like, there's times where I'm like, I've built a monster. What did I get myself into?
00:19:40
Speaker
Um, but again, because I stay close to my why, um, I'm like, that's why I do it. But yeah, I went through some, it's been 10 years, but there was a season where I was trying to learn different parts that we were having problems with. And I actually had like alopecia where you lose parts of your hair from stress is stress induced, um, hair loss. And thank God, like it grew back.
00:20:03
Speaker
My barber was trimming my hair up and he was like, I just want you to know, there's a spot here I haven't seen before but I didn't do it. I turn and look in the mirror, get the mirror for me. I was like, what is that? And sure enough, I went to the doctor. They referred me to a specialist that looked at it and it was just like, hey man, you need to take care of yourself because this is stress inducing. At the time I was like 31 years old and it's like, that's early to be having these types of symptoms.
00:20:33
Speaker
You run into stuff like that regularly, you know? And so today I'm more focused on taking care of myself first, making sure that I'm healthy going into this. Even when you pulled up this recording, you heard the music and I was like, I'm just trying to set myself up for it to be in a good place versus like being on social media, flipping through, answering email right before this. I want to be committed to you and to the people that are listening to this to like deliver what's on my heart. And if my mind is elsewhere, which so much of my life
00:21:03
Speaker
that's what I wrestle with, then I can't deliver what I want to, to you, you know? Yeah. So as you're, and I've been to your warehouse and we've gotten a tour and it's incredible just the complexity, you know, of the process, right? I mean, you guys have it down, of course, but even just the glue that you use was specially engineered for your books so that it lasts for a long time through different environments, right?
00:21:29
Speaker
So there's obviously a lot of complexity that goes into that and I'm sure that was a learning process in and of itself. Would you say that your biggest challenges getting started were mostly on that front dealing with the product or was it something else? Was it sales or marketing or operations?
00:21:47
Speaker
No, that was it. I mean, for sure that was our biggest thing because that's the thing with that was the unknown for us. And so what I've learned again in the process is that we have resources and just like in photography, there's people that are willing to share what's working for them. And there's some people that kind of are on lockdown. They think they have the secret sauce. Ultimately, we are like that book, that product is an extension of my vision or my heart as the founder and owner.
00:22:14
Speaker
But there's so much that goes into it that was like unknown. And so I reached out to resource. I traveled the planet learning how to manufacture a product and why the glue matters and what, you know, why everything goes to the spine and puts all the pressure on that. So it was a lot of like a lot of prototyping at first. And I was grateful that our marketing side of things was about simple because to do that on top of a ton of inventory would have
00:22:42
Speaker
been tough, but to pick this kind of like unoccupied hill that we picked of simple. We only had like six colors, three sizes, a square book. And so we did the same thing over and over and over again. We got good really quick. So yeah, that was the biggest hurdle was learning that process. Now we have tons of efficient systems in place. We don't automate hardly anything. It's still hand done.
00:23:10
Speaker
If you do the same thing a thousand times in a month, you're going to get really good at it now. And so that's what we did. And it went from like having the covers made up in Los Angeles, I'd go pick up those and then I would use that as a resource to learn how to make product, make those covers. And then, you know, we'd spent time and have them consult and then we brought covers in house, you know, and then printing is a total art of itself. And I was doing a CMYK, which is a four color process, but photographic printing is RGB.
00:23:40
Speaker
And so I had to learn what that looked like and imaging and how much the chemicals mattered and all those types of things. So again, I just like leaned into my resources and I'm that guy that not afraid to like, hey, just say like, hey, this is what I'm wrestling with. Are you willing to share this with me or not? Like I'm going to figure it out. I want you to know that I'm going to figure this out. And I'm total, I would, I prefer investing in the relationship versus like making a product and comparing ours to theirs and showing us, showing them how much
00:24:09
Speaker
how much more superior we are than them. It's not about that. There's enough to go around. Are you willing to share? And there's some people that are, and there's some people that aren't. So I just invest in those resources and relationships, and you start to figure out the ones that are willing to share those things. And I'm an open door as well. Anybody can come and warehouse, do a warehouse tour like you did. But even if it's a competitor, we had, again, some of these bigger companies at one of the big trade shows that we were just at, and they were looking at one of our products that they love. And I was like, what do you want to know about it?
00:24:38
Speaker
who you are, it's not that big of a deal, like you don't need to turn your badge around and sneak, it's like I'm fine because you're not gonna be able to create the same experience that we do over at Kiss, so that's more what it's about. If you can be with your kids a little bit more because I can just give you the place to get that particular wood or paper or whatever, then I prefer that, you know.
00:24:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's an interesting take. I had a conversation with Jonathan Canlis, who's a film photographer, a few years back. And he was telling me that he believed he could share everything he knows about photography with anyone. And he really is an open book. If you talk to him, he'll share. But his take was basically like at the end of the day,
00:25:21
Speaker
nobody else is going to be able to create the same images that I create. So I just thought that was a fascinating perspective. Not everybody buys that I follow and read books that encourage that so that I know because sometimes I'm like, am I crazy doing this? But you know, I have people and like mentors that don't know they're my mentor type of a thing that I follow on social media that preach that but I was just talking to our biggest competitor yesterday.
00:25:48
Speaker
and he was still like, why do you do that? And I was like, because, and I explained the same thing. I just feel like it doesn't matter as much. There's no way you can do what I do, and I cannot do what you do. You're gonna deliver different experiences, and people can make the decision based on that. If they're based on price, that's a totally different beast, and those are just transactions. But if we invest in the relationship, whether it's you and me, or me and my clients, then there's more depth and loyalty to it. And so that's the platform that we stand on,
00:26:16
Speaker
Hey, we have the secret sauce. There's certain things that we do that other book companies don't do, but if they ask about it, I'll just tell them, you know, because it's like, it could better your process. And that's fine. You're going to your clients better be through that, but you're going to market it different.
00:26:28
Speaker
You're going to communicate differently. Your values are different than mine typically.
Growing Kiss Books Through Community Connection
00:26:32
Speaker
And I'm really interested in hearing about how KISS became a profitable business because when you're starting a photography business, there's certainly an investment. You're going to go out and you're going to buy professional cameras and lighting equipment and so on. But you're probably looking at a couple thousand dollars to get started.
00:26:50
Speaker
with a warehouse and the instruments that you all use to build an album, I'm assuming that it's not just a couple thousand dollars. I would assume, and you certainly don't have to share that, it's tens of thousands of dollars in order to get started with that. And then you add in this level of uncertainty with not, you know, you had to go through this exploration process of figuring out how to create the high quality book that you create
00:27:17
Speaker
And then you have to get a certain density of clients. You have to get clients to start ordering your books en masse for it to be profitable. So how did you market yourself? How did you get the word out there that this is something you were doing? I mean, if you started this business 10 years ago, Facebook existed, of course, but I don't think Facebook ads in their current form
00:27:42
Speaker
existed. So there wasn't there wasn't anything like that. So how did you get the word out there that this is what you were doing and get to a point where you where you had enough customers where this this became a profitable business? Yeah, again, even back there, then when I wasn't as focused on the things that I am today with just personal development and things like that, I still believed in the relationship. Who I am today is who I was then. It's just like I believe it's a healthier version.
00:28:12
Speaker
So in Myers-Briggs, I'm an ENFP, which is a connector. And so that was my wheelhouse. I love community. I love speaking because I love the relationship that comes from that. And so me and my previous business partner were a part of all the forums back then, which is now basically Facebook groups. And so we were talking shop regularly. I was published and those types of things. So people kind of knew who I was, partly.
00:28:42
Speaker
I was very busy as a photographer, but I was also active in the community. And so it was like, hey, we have this idea. What do you think? And we run into the same thing today that we did back then. It's like, oh, man, I have a hard time selling that product. And so it was like, well, this is what we're going to do. This is what works for us. And this is what works with some of our peers to sell these books. So we're going to create a system that is out of this world compared to what you're currently using. Would that help? And then we just did it.
00:29:12
Speaker
It was like, I met my business partner in December. By March, we had everything going, like website and things like that. And by May, we took our first orders, but we had that short window to build up of like five or six months of like, Hey, this is what we're doing. And we built such a buzz that literally was like the first month in, in business. We took 46 orders. And by the end of that year, we were taking a hundred orders.
00:29:40
Speaker
month and to us it was like we were trying to keep up at that point because we had learned a ton about manufacturing but not at volume you know like I was making the books and I was you know in there doing all this as well as then jumping on the computer answering questions doing our own customer support all that stuff so the investment was that's that's part of it for sure and it's like back then it was probably closer to tens of thousands if not like low six-figure investment now it's like seven figure investment too.
00:30:09
Speaker
to scale to doing over 1,000 books a month type of a thing. So it was, again, a lot of learning in that time. But it was when you're hungry. And I love shooting. But I knew I was going to burn out on shooting 60 weddings and 100 engagement shoots. I love people more than anything. So that's what I loved about even the photography was I get to be a part of a wedding day, which is very special. And I love relationships. And so I invested so much in there.
00:30:39
Speaker
When I shot three in a weekend, I was like, okay, I can't do this forever at this rate. And so what's another version of this? I still want to be in the creative industry and that's where this came from. But yeah, it was like big investment. Marketing was on point and we were literally, we saw a hill that nobody was on. And that was, hey, we're going to take all of the options out, all the options that you can get. There was no, at the time there was no photo cover. You couldn't put the name of the client on the cover. Nothing. It was a square.
00:31:09
Speaker
leather book. And now it's a lot more options because we realize they aren't not, you know, they aren't anti-simple. It's the process to get to it. So as long as we need to make it easy to get that done, then we can add those options. But back then we were like, no, we're going to say no to all of this stuff. And man, talk about ears raised, like those companies that I used to use, we would see them at trade shows. And a lot of them are from New York and they have this kind of like
00:31:38
Speaker
They say what's on their mind. I remember I was in the elevator with one of the guys that I used to use as a book company, and his was very more colorful language than I'll use, but he was just like, I can't believe what you guys are doing, because we've said yes for so long that we can't go back and say no, and we've looked into building a system like you, but because we have thousands of SKUs, we can't do it for an affordable price. So he's like, good for you guys. He was mad about it, but he was like, we saw.
00:32:08
Speaker
we're doing. And now we are likely larger than that company and, and just like stick into our, a lot of people copied simple. And so we've had to evolve and kind of rethink what that looks like. And so we've shifted from the world's simplest book company to pursue simple. So it's a lifestyle that you're signing up for. And we know, we feel like the epidemic is not the amount of book companies or the amount of photographers that are in competition with each other.
00:32:36
Speaker
to the fact that we believe that there's two million weddings here in the USA and one and a half million of those are not getting anything, let alone a book. And so as a business entrepreneur, I'm like, I'm going to go after those, right? But no, I love the creative entrepreneur so much that I'm going to pour into that, create systems and create a space for the photographer to thrive in so they can focus on what matters most to them, whether it's their craft or their family or whatever it is that they're invested in and still have a successful business. And so that's like,
00:33:05
Speaker
That's always been our thing. And so we can now do other, you know, versions of our product with cameos and like names on the front and stuff like that and make it as simple as possible and then create a space and educate on how to like, how did I sell albums? We take our top, you know, photographers that are crushing it. Like how are they selling albums? And then I like educate through that and teach their processes. Like what's going to work for you? Do you believe that your work needs to be printed or are you fine with it on Facebook or on a digital
00:33:35
Speaker
like a hosting image hosting site and most people are like well I want it printed but I don't know how to develop that you know and so we're like great if you believe in it then you can be a part of kiss because we're gonna educate you and show you how because even if you don't believe it it doesn't mean that your bride doesn't want an album that she has for the rest of her life you know type of a thing so that's our heart ultimately
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that the kinds of people that are attracted to KISS share that same perspective that you do about competition and about sharing information. And so since we've worked with you, we've kind of had an inside look at this, but a lot of the photographers that work with you are more than willing to share exactly how they sell albums, exactly how they sell prints, how they put their album order together, how they sell albums before holiday seasons, which is awesome.
00:34:25
Speaker
just that because that kind of thing I think makes a huge difference for photographers because you can you can grow your business by shooting more or you can grow your business by optimizing each customer's value and this is something that we've talked about on those podcasts a lot so you could shoot the equivalent of a couple weddings per year just in the albums that you sell so now you're getting weekends back but you're making these the same amount of money you did the year prior so I think that's awesome
00:34:50
Speaker
that your company has that heart to share and educate clients beyond just giving them a tool to Simply order order albums and I imagine that that experience and that that elevator was so Validating at that point to hear a competitor maybe a competitor who is larger than you guys at the time. I assume just say Hey, you're on to something. I wish that you know, I wish that this is the approach that that we took and
00:35:16
Speaker
So yeah, there was like four or five guys in the elevator. So there's this like level of pride and everything. And I was like, and at the time I was like, wearing these, I mean, clothes that I look back, I'm like, what was I doing? Like, I can't believe I was that into myself. But I kept my cool. And I was like, yeah, like, thanks. We appreciate that. When they got off the elevator, I lost it, you know, I was just like, that's who I ordered books from. And it does, it shows like, hey, we're, we are on to something. And if we can
00:35:41
Speaker
get, keep our heart there. You know, I don't want to end up in that place where it's like, I have 1000 SKUs, you know, it just makes sense to really stay laser focused on that, you know, and then we can serve better because of it, you know, we have the freedom and availability capacity to serve how we want to. And so really early on, it was a trade shows and word of mouth. Yeah, we did trade shows, we couldn't get in the first WPPI. I expect then it was like, it still is kind of like the trade show, but it was like there was a waiting list to
00:36:08
Speaker
to get a booth and it was the following year that we did that. So we went around with like pugs and local meetups and we spoke. We did whatever we can. We did our own version of that. It was called Get Simple. And so we taught from the early on we educated like what are we doing in our business like how am I shooting that many weddings and making you know different amounts of money and things like that with product or whatever. And so we taught on the experience and we do kind of like we
00:36:34
Speaker
We had a hard time selling the business side and we knew that we needed to get creative with it and so we then we brought on a well-known shooter and they did a styled shoot and then it was packed you know and so we can speak and hopefully keep them interested in the business side and then they would do the shoot and so we just we traveled like crazy and then other friends of ours were launching software at the same time so got on a bus with them and like toured the
00:36:58
Speaker
Country, just like, again, just like all in, hustle mode, like nobody else, and we just showed up and served, you know, that's what we did. So, you hit the stride. KISS eventually becomes a profitable business. What's interesting, and you mentioned this at the beginning, is that in entrepreneurship, in running a business, you just have to be okay with the failure and the challenges that are going to inevitably come. And I think even after you get past that point where it's like,
00:37:27
Speaker
Okay, I'm on to something, right? Because kiss, kiss works, right? So you know that. But even beyond that, there's initial challenges that you had. It's not like you haven't had any challenges since then. It's not like you
00:37:40
Speaker
came up with a great product, it started selling, and then you could kick back and relax and just hang out, right? You've had, as I think any entrepreneur has, different challenges that come up along the way. You once told me a story where the designer was defaulting to a certain color, right? So you had, you know, so you had a bunch of books ordered in like Aqua or something like that, right? Because that was the first
00:38:04
Speaker
I had one of those books. I'm glad it's not in here because it's not something I want to remember, but all the colors and I look across the warehouse. I was like, you know, I knew the pop, the colors might be a little more popular, but not that one. Like that's weird. Look across the warehouse and there's hundreds of these like Aqua teal books. And I was like, why is that happening? Like it was nuts. And so sure enough, it was a, it was Aqua Marine was the name of it. And it just defaulted to that where it used to default to black and you'd have to pick.
00:38:33
Speaker
But it's just another one of those learning things. Yeah, it's just challenges that come up that are unexpected. But more recently you did have a bigger transition
Parting Ways with Co-Founder and Future Plans
00:38:43
Speaker
within Kiss. You started this business with a co-founder and you and your co-founder have recently parted ways and I know that the transition has been challenging in different ways. And I was wondering
00:38:56
Speaker
what you'd be willing to share about that and kind of taking KISS on your own. And I think anybody who's run a business on their own can relate to some of the challenges that one might face. But could you tell us about that transition and kind of where KISS is heading in the future? Yeah, for sure. I love my business partner and it was like what made us who we were was a huge part of what he brought to the table.
00:39:23
Speaker
and one of the smartest guys I've ever worked with. And it's tough because you become very good friends, hopefully with those. We weren't friends before, but we became very good friends around the road all the time together. Building business really excited each other in certain ways that made it to where we could build this thing and build it fast, you know. And we didn't, our goal wasn't to build it fast, it just did because we definitely kind of hit the nail on the head at the time.
00:39:50
Speaker
And what got us here isn't necessarily going to get us there. It's kind of a mentality that really started to divide us a little bit. And it was like, at the seven year mark, I became the first CEO because again, it being the connector and really investing in leadership, he was doing a lot of that as well. At the time, he believed he was a lot more of an introvert and he would say like,
00:40:17
Speaker
I had a hard time following you into a room or like I did a lot of the ordering when we were at dinner with our clients because he was so introverted. Again, super smart but pretty introverted in a way that like he just didn't love like being in a big large group of people and a lot of time we're speaking and at these huge events and stuff like that. So he started to do a lot of the behind the scenes stuff anyway with marketing and things like that. And then it just got to the point where I was like, you know,
00:40:44
Speaker
I love you and I care for you and your family. I want what's best for you guys, but I think for the future, for what's next for us, this is what I see and I'm not sure if it's exactly what you see. And I want the freedom to be able to make some of these decisions. And so in the CEO seat, I had control over certain areas, but I still had a business partner and co-founder that I respected and wanted to like make sure that like, hey, are you good with these decisions?
00:41:11
Speaker
but I really needed to free up the capacity to do what I believe is next. And that's when I just, when my wife and I actually made a decision like, hey, this is where we're at, what do you guys think? And they, we debated, fought for it a little bit, you know, but it got to the point where it's like, okay, here's my number and it's just the writing's on the wall, here's what the company's worth type of a thing. And we're like, yeah, that's what we were thinking as well, can we just,
00:41:39
Speaker
go our separate ways at this point. Like I care enough about them that I'm not trying to negotiate. We hardly had any negotiation. It was great. And then we got into it with the attorneys and got through it, you know. And so what's next for KISS is really like staying focused on what matters to us, which is ultimately serving creatives and creating a space for them to thrive in. Now, when I say that, you have no idea what I do with books, right?
00:42:07
Speaker
And I'm okay with that. We're going to really push the envelope of like we are here to serve creative entrepreneurs and we happen to sell books because we're not the only people on the planet that can make a book. But what you can expect from KISS is service like none other and we're going to continue to invest in a system and education and ways that make it easy for your client, for the photographer's client to get this product.
00:42:33
Speaker
because it's not easy. It's not an easy process. A lot of the surveys that we run, it's like, I have a hard time doing the design and back and forth and sales and making it like profitable and understanding what I'm making and all that. So we are underlying in our system, making all those things happen. And that's what we're really focused on. So now I've taken on the development side of the company as well and marketing and branding and things like that and trying to really like,
00:43:01
Speaker
Focus that on what creatives want to see so that they stick around and then when they become part of the atmosphere part of the what we call the kiss crew They're like man like they're for us like I want them to know you're for them I don't want you to sell books because I own a book company I want you to sell books because of the relationship and I believe in printed material And so there there's a place for Facebook and Instagram social media is great I live 2,000 miles away from my family so they get to keep up
00:43:29
Speaker
with my life, partly through social media, but there's still nothing like sitting down and looking at a book. So whether it's with my eight year old that would prefer to be on a device, when we look through a book of our images, we sit and we laugh together. We can do that on Facebook, but there's a distraction there. And then I was recently with my grandpa who has Alzheimer's and he's like my favorite man on the planet. I have a ton of respect for this man. He has photos out all the time because when he looks at them,
00:43:58
Speaker
He can't, at the time he couldn't remember my daughter, who he shouldn't know. But he would pull up a photo and he would explain everything about it. I got the chills right now because it's like, it's such a beautiful thing that the connection of us to print and this like, we just stopped time so we can look back and remember it. He could remember everything and there's pictures of him as a kid and he's 94 years old at the time. He's looking at it, he could tell me everything about it and it was funny because he'd say like, hey remember this? And he's a kid, he's 90 something.
00:44:27
Speaker
My aunt was like, dad, you know, Sean's your grandson, you know, he wasn't there when this photo was taken, you know, he was not even made yet. But he can remember everything about it. And it was just such a beautiful thing. And it really matters to me that people get a printed product, especially, you know, what we invest in a photographer, especially for a wedding day or whatever.
00:44:48
Speaker
to, I want photographers to be photographers that deliver an album. We have images that happen in between that, but how are we going to tell the story? Is it going to be just on social media? And if that's what the client wants, so be it. But I really believe that we want to tell the full story in an album. And so that's what we're doing, like going forward, we're just creating an atmosphere that you can do that. And there's a system that, like here's the keys to that system. And you can go focus on your craft, focus on the relationships and go do those things. Because underneath you is the support of this
00:45:18
Speaker
system that does all of that work for you. You're able to intertwine your vision and your wording, your language, all those things into it, but ultimately we're creating a spot where it can do a lot of the business for you. So it's not so scary to show and communicate these things like here's when to communicate, here's how to communicate. This is what I did and had success in to get my clients that album. I want that for you and in your own words, what would you say? And then we'll write it out and create a space in the dashboard for them to just be able to share those things.
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that point has never been so evident to me as Chris and I expect our first child. I've been going back through some old photo albums that my parents have and I'm not a believer that things last longer digitally. I think that in very many ways they have a shorter lifespan. Social media, things that appear on social media are popular for
00:46:10
Speaker
24 hours, and then they're gone and buried. Even the files that you keep on your computer, if you have digital backups of photos, I mean, I know for me, and I'm a pretty organized person, to go and find a specific photo that I'm thinking of, I'd have to dig through hundreds, if not thousands, of images through different files, whereas an album, it kind of forces you to pick what images are most important and actually print those, and then they're out.
00:46:37
Speaker
I'm so grateful, I lost my mom when I was a senior in high school, and so she hasn't been around for a number of experiences, but especially this one lately, I've been thinking about her a lot, just as Chris and I expect our first kid. And I'm so grateful for Photo Albums, and I'm so grateful that she didn't have, it wasn't even a possibility, but she didn't have a computer somewhere that would be in storage that probably wouldn't even turn on.
00:47:04
Speaker
because otherwise I just wouldn't be able to get to those images and I wouldn't be able to just see and be reminded of a part of her life that I can't otherwise remember. So I think that that kind of thing is so, it's just so important, especially in today's age where it's so easy to take a picture, it hang out on your phone, it hang out as a file on your computer, never really to be seen again and not easily accessed by people.
00:47:33
Speaker
One of the things that I, you know, as we wrap up here, one of the things that I want to ask you about and something that you've referred back to often is just kind of this idea of, you know, understanding and knowing yourself, working through kind of the stuff you have going on in your life and
00:47:48
Speaker
And that's actually how we met, right? We met at a leadership program out west with giant and So I've kind of got a small glimpse of watching you go through that process what has has
00:48:03
Speaker
Coming to a better understanding of yourself and having better self-awareness how's that affected your life personally and with with kiss and do you have any advice for You know other entrepreneurs especially young entrepreneurs people are just starting their businesses as they get started yeah, I could go on for a long time about this need to but ultimately
The Role of Self-Awareness in Entrepreneurship
00:48:28
Speaker
what it's like to be on the other side of me is something that is hard to look at because I know everything about what's inside of me and to bring that to light is what it takes to work on it and that's scary that's vulnerable that's like the fear of what I'm already dealing with is the fact that will you love me if I show you everything that goes through my mind or that I deal with or that I run to and but it's so valuable the more I
00:48:55
Speaker
talk about it, the more I put it out there, the more freeing it is for me because I believe we have the capacity to hang on to so much stuff and go this far. And I can't move this further until I let go of a little bit more. I don't move on from it, I move forward. So I let go of a little bit and I work on it so that I can move forward again and I will never arrive. I will always be a student of this. There's always room for improvement.
00:49:23
Speaker
And so I think the advice that I would have is like one of the things that my wife and I have started to do in our marriage, and you can do this in any relationship, that is like you know you're for each other, but you're also expecting each other to grow, is like we have this thing where it's like, hey, do you want some feedback? And so I can say, if my wife says that to me, I'm like instantly, as an ENFP, one of the things I have a hard time with is criticism, because I'm so close to everything,
00:49:52
Speaker
that if you, if I, even if I ask for a critique, it's like I'm placing it on my heart and you take shots at it and now I'm like wounded because I took it so personal where the person that gave it to me might have said like, hey, you asked for criticism and yet you're so hurt about it. Like, do you want me to make it better or not? You know, what were you really asking? So knowing that about myself, I can see it coming in now. Like, okay, I really want this to be better. And so even when she says, hey, can I give you feedback? I can respond yes or no.
00:50:23
Speaker
And I can even say like, yeah, I'd love some feedback, but I want to know for sure that you are for me. So can you start with the reason that you're for me and why you want to give me feedback and then give me the feedback. And when I'm sitting there likely bleeding on the ground, make sure you kind of like end it with, and I'm still for you because I see the most powerful things that she said to me at taking on, you know, more leadership in the company and with our kids and with each other.
00:50:49
Speaker
She's like, I see so much in you and I expect that from you and I want you to know that's a compliment. I expect you to show up that way. And so that's what I'm longing for and that's what I'm leaning into you for is for you to show up that way. And that's what I want out of this. So as I give you feedback, it's just so that you know kind of how you're coming across because I know that's not who you are. So it's huge in every aspect of life.
00:51:14
Speaker
leading a team, leading a relationship, even with your clients and things like that, knowing what it's like to be on the other side of you. It's not fun to look at at first, but you can come across the way that you genuinely desire to where subconsciously you're coming across in a way that you don't even know exists because we're not likely going to just be like, hey, I don't really know you, but I want to give you some feedback. But like doing a lot of like asking our clients for feedback on how we're doing in customer support or anything like that.
00:51:40
Speaker
Now I can read those before we do surveys and I'm like, you guys read them. I can't handle it. But now I'm like, man, that's what they want. Why? And I want to just, I'll call them on the phone and we'll have a great conversation about it. But leaning in, always being a student, I read a lot and I don't take everything and apply it. There are certain books that I go to because that's the lifestyle that I want. Essentialism being one of them. Essentialism is not being a minimalist. That's not my goal in life.
00:52:09
Speaker
The best decision was what I feel is available to me. So many times in my life I've limited what is available to me that I only had a couple decisions. I don't ever want to be in a place where I have a big decision to make and only have two decisions. There's likely other decisions out there and there's also because there's more decisions or more options because you can look at it from a different side. You know like I had this
00:52:32
Speaker
feeling or this judgment on my dad because of the house that I was raised in. But I never, until just recently, literally in the last couple of months, had somebody say, hey, have you ever thought about what it's like to be him? And do you even know what he was going through when those things were happening? I was like, no, I don't really want to. I'm mad at him about it, or I was hurt by it. And so I had a conversation. We just sat down, and I was like, dad, I just want to know where you came from. I don't know much about you. And I want to know you. I want to feel this compassion towards you.
00:53:02
Speaker
But all I have is my side of the story. As I started to unpack where he came from, it's like, no wonder. He makes the best decisions with what is potentially available to him. There wasn't much in the childhood that he had as well. It just allows us to really have compassion. As an entrepreneur for me, one of the things that just went was
00:53:27
Speaker
grace, compassion, it started to go away because the callousness of dealing with all the stuff that we talked about, building a business, investing, all those things, I start to just start to focus more on myself in an unhealthy way, not care as much about other people. But that is not why I do this. And so as I start to understand why and how I can work on myself, I'm so much better to get to that why and serve people the way that I want to. But yeah, ultimately, I'd say the one thing out of all of that is like, if you can just
00:53:56
Speaker
if there's a good friend of yours, a spouse, you know, whatever, somebody that you know, can speak truth into your life to say like, Hey, what is it like to be on the other side of me in this relationship? There's different types of relationships. But I do that with my team, with my employees. And some of them are like, I've never had anybody ask me that I'm afraid to answer that because I feel like it's my job on the line. I was like, No, it's gonna better me so I can serve you better in that particular relationship, that person that
00:54:24
Speaker
It's a younger gal that works for me. She's doing things that we never thought she would be doing because now I know how to lead her better and she knows what it's like to even lead back for me and what she needs and wants for me and why. I don't understand it if I don't ask for it. Asking for that feedback is huge.
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all of that with us. Thank you for sharing just your time with us and a little bit about your journey and telling us about Kiss. We are Kiss customers, so we use Kiss for our albums. So if you are a photographer and you're looking for an album company, Kiss is definitely something that you should check out.
00:55:04
Speaker
And you should just, if you see Sean at a trade show or you see him at a conference, you should go up and say hi because I do think you are one of the most approachable people that I know. So thank you for your time. If people want to follow along, they want to get to know you or they want to get to know Kiss a little bit more, where should they go? Yeah, Kiss is at Kissbooks on all social media, at Kissbooks.
00:55:27
Speaker
If it's kiss.us is our URL, you can go get some information there. Personally, I'm at Sean Austin on all the social media outlets as well. My last name is Gordon, but I started it out as a photographer. It was Austin photography. So everyone started calling me Sean Austin. So that's been my handle for a while. So at Sean Austin on Facebook or on any of the Instagram or anything like that. So yeah, I'd love to. I think like he said, like, please come. That's where we do really well is when you come up to us and just like open up a conversation. It's not easy.
00:55:57
Speaker
but we love serving from that place of just being able to hear and get to know who you are. But yeah, thanks for having me. This has been really fun. Thanks so much. Awesome. Thanks for listening to the Brands That Book Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast on iTunes and leaving a review so that others are more likely to find it. For show notes and other resources, visit DavianKrista.com.