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The Unspoken Rules of Marriage Destroying Modern Men
2 Plays3 seconds ago
Why can so many successful men stay calm, focused, and capable at work, but become reactive, shut down, or emotionally disconnected at home?
In this episode of The Men’s Collective Podcast, Travis Goodman sits down with Jessica Gold to explore why high-performing men often feel confident professionally but lost relationally.
Jessica shares how men can become highly skilled at solving problems, performing under pressure, and staying productive, while still struggling with emotional availability, nervous system regulation, intimacy, and communication in marriage or long-term relationships.
This conversation looks at why problem-solving often does not work when your partner wants to feel heard, why emotional closeness can trigger stress or defensiveness, and how performance-based identity can keep men stuck in doing mode instead of presence.
We also explore Jessica’s “relationship chemistry” framework, including inner chemistry, relational chemistry, nervous system awareness, window of tolerance, emotional attunement, and the importance of learning relationships as a real skill.
In this episode, we cover:
Why men can perform well at work but shut down at home
Why problem-solving can make your partner feel unseen
How nervous system activation impacts marriage and relationships
Why men often feel pressure to always know the answer
The role of shame, fear, and performance-based identity
How to move from fixing to presence
Why emotional awareness is a skill men can learn
How men’s groups can help reduce shame and build connection
How systems thinking and relationship chemistry can help couples change
This episode is for men who look successful on the outside but feel disconnected from themselves, their partner, or the people closest to them.
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Music by Scott Buckley – released under CC-BY 4.0. www.scottbuckley.com.au
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Transcript
Work vs Home Dynamics
00:00:00
Speaker
They want to be amazing fathers. They want to have the best possible relationship. They want to have a fantastic connection and sex life with their wife. And so there's a lot of pressure, but when they come home, suddenly there's no external structure. Everything is implicit rather than explicit. Your wife may be expecting you to read her mind a little bit, maybe expecting you to track her and intuit what's needed. because none of us were taught good relationship skills in this life. So things can blow up out of seemingly nowhere. All of your problem solving doesn't seem to be appreciated anymore. And it's like, well, I don't know what to do. So then it's really easy to collapse, withdraw or boil over.
00:00:43
Speaker
Many men can lead well, perform well, and stay composed under the pressures at work. But when they come home, a tense conversation happens, their partner is upset, their kids are loud, something just feels off. And suddenly the skills that make these men successful at work don't really translate into home life.
Why Successful Men Struggle at Home
00:01:02
Speaker
In this episode, I'm joined by Jessica Gold, and we talk about why high-performing men can feel confident at work, but then disconnected at home. We explore performance-based identity, nervous system activation, emotional availability, and why problem solving often misses the deeper need for presence, attunement, and connection. This conversation is for the man who looks steady on the outside, but feels this confusion, defensive shutdown, or alone in the relationships that matter most. So let's get into it.
00:01:34
Speaker
So Jessica, first, I'm so glad that you're here. And um the first question I was thinking about after really discovering your TED Talk was this notion that a lot of men can lead well, they can perform well, and they could even be composed differently. And at work, and even if it's a very stressful work environment, but often they can struggle to stay home and composed at home with their partner or their family, their kids.
00:02:01
Speaker
And I'm wondering from your experience and perspective and training, why do you think that happens?
Comfort in Structure vs Home Challenges
00:02:07
Speaker
It's such a good question. And there's so many different ways to look at this, but I've learned a lot from the men I work with themselves who have talked about this with me.
00:02:18
Speaker
So I'll tell you in their words, what they've found from when they think about this problem. You know, um a lot of guys say they really ended up focusing on work in their life because at work they knew how to solve problems. They knew what to do. It makes sense. There's a structure, an external structure at work.
00:02:41
Speaker
The roles are clear, the KPIs. You have a quarterly progress review. You might or might not have a boss, but there's feedback, known mechanisms of feedback. So there's an external structure that holds you.
00:02:55
Speaker
And often the easiest thing, the lane where men feel most competent, problem solving is what's most highly prized at work. Productivity, getting stuff done, being very explicit, people will bring you the problem. You don't have to guess. And so at work, it's easy to feel successful, to feel praised.
Emotional Problem Solving at Home
00:03:17
Speaker
um Whereas at home, a lot of guys tell me they were like, I couldn't figure it out. I didn't know what to do. The harder I tried, the worse things got. And so it can be really frustrating.
00:03:33
Speaker
I think it's also hard because they put a lot of pressure on themselves. You know, the men that I work with love to love. They want to be amazing fathers. They want to have the best possible relationship. They want to have a fantastic connection and sex life with their wife.
00:03:50
Speaker
And so there's a lot of pressure, but when they come home, suddenly there's no external structure. Everything is implicit rather than explicit. A lot of times, and this isn't good relationality, um but your wife may be expecting you to read her mind a little bit, maybe expecting you to track her and intuit what's needed, because none of us were taught good relationship skills in this life.
00:04:16
Speaker
ah So things can blow up out of seemingly nowhere. And all of your problem solving doesn't seem to be appreciated anymore. And it's like, well, I don't know what to do. So then it's really easy to collapse, withdraw or boil over.
00:04:33
Speaker
So well said that not a lot of us were had a blueprint or taught how best to navigate like the emotional space of like intimate relationships. Um, we were all taught something. We often have a blueprint. I call it of relational connection, conflict navigation, right? And how do we do that? And,
00:04:50
Speaker
To your point, men at work can feel they can solve the problem. They could fix. There's these metrics to achieve, to perform, to make a sale, to write these performance measures. um But at home, relationally, there's not really those, like you said, it's not really this explicit measure of what does it mean to do well here.
00:05:13
Speaker
And often I hear this idea of solving a problem. And when I hear that, I think where men struggle is, you know, I'm trying to solve it. You're right. They want a good relationship, trying to solve it. But when I go to solve, it's not landing.
The Importance of Emotional Presence
00:05:26
Speaker
And why do you think that is? Why do you think solving a problem, solving emotional problems, why do think doesn't land so well, especially when it comes to their spouses? Yeah, well, solving a problem is a very top-down, it's one layer of who a person is.
00:05:40
Speaker
And when you're in an intimate relationship, when you're a dynamic system of coupled oscillators, you could say, from systems theory, you need to really attune to each other on deeper levels that we just weren't taught about.
00:05:56
Speaker
So something... Something that wives are often looking for. And i will say though, that the men I work with are also looking for this. They just might not know it is someone to really deeply listen um and empathize and validate first.
00:06:17
Speaker
And as we know, from a nervous system point of view, that helps you settle down. That helps you feel safe um And so when you feel attuned to and listened to, then you can solve the problem for her.
00:06:31
Speaker
Right. But if you solve the problem too soon, then it can feel invalidating. um She can feel missed and unseen. and so that's why problem solving doesn't work, at least from my perspective. Maybe you have a different one.
00:06:46
Speaker
I would definitely agree and say and see that that well, because what I tend to hear from problem solving is that often we're not looking to solve a problem of emotion.
00:06:57
Speaker
What I tend to hear a lot is i want to be heard. Right? I want to be validated. I want to be listened to. When I hear that, I tend to ask, okay, what does it mean to be heard, validated, listened to? Like, what do you mean when you say that?
00:07:12
Speaker
And sometimes I hear the spouse really articulate it well. where it's like, okay, great. And then I said, well, can you share this? And I'm thinking of like a female, you know, typical female-male partnership of the female shares of the male.
00:07:24
Speaker
do this, I have seen men maybe at first just struggle because it's new for them. Like, okay, this is different for me. And all that's solving it is just saying it back and, and maybe putting, you know, giving a hug or, you know, cause that's, that's different in their mind. They don't think it's a solve, at least if they're really rigid on that, have to solve and fix it.
00:07:44
Speaker
You know, it's like, oh I could just say this. It's kind of like that classic video, YouTube video. i'm sure you've seen it with though the the nail nail on the head and You know, it's so it's so classic and so good. You know, you know obviously it's you know it's it's broad brushstroke, but it's pretty accurate of like, hey, you got this now and you're not listening to me. And and so it's just sitting with is like, that's the soul, presence. And so, but what does presence mean? Especially if a man has not been taught presence.
00:08:11
Speaker
And I think that's a sticky point is that this concept of like performance based that like I have to solve. That's where I get my value and worth is by solving, by fixing, by finding a solution.
00:08:21
Speaker
Yep. And in a relationship, it doesn't translate often. It is a complex thing, but let me paint a picture for you. So oftentimes at work, you're on fire, you're solving problems. At the same time, people who get praised at work are often the ones who suppress their emotions. Emotionality is seen as a negative at work.
00:08:43
Speaker
And that is exhausting. Also, if you've had to wear a mask a little bit to fit in into the company culture, all of this is a little exhausting and you're used to solving problems. So you've gotten all of your best energy. You've taken your best, freshest self to work and you come home, you're already a little on edge, a little tired. You come into your relationship and maybe she's upset about something. Maybe she wants to vent about her day. Maybe there's something happening and there's a lot of emotionality happening.
00:09:16
Speaker
um A few things can happen. one is Depending on how emotions were dealt with in your family of origin, having a lot of emotionality all of a sudden in your face can cause a red alert in your nervous system. And so he might just go into the whoosh, like get dysregulated and flooded heart rate at 100 and not know what to do and just be like, oh, I need to fix this. Right. Right.
00:09:45
Speaker
And so that's the first thing that can happen. The second thing is like, oh, my gosh, I just want things to be peaceful and happy at home. So how do i fix this? And that is usually the those two are the default responses.
00:09:59
Speaker
Oh, the third thing is, um oh my gosh, if she just understood it from my perspective, then she would calm down. Maybe I can, you know, she might be wrong about how she's seeing this and I need to correct the facts. And then once the facts are straight, then she'll calm down. That's the default operating system that most of us have for handling partnership. Yeah. And and that's why things can feel really hard really fast.
00:10:28
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I guess on the receiving end of that, why, from your experience, why does that why is it hard or difficult? Yeah, it lands for me. Well, I can say from personal experience and from the wives who I've worked with and with my couples is that it's as if you're saying we're wrong, that there's something wrong with us, that we shouldn't be feeling what we feel.
00:10:52
Speaker
and it's questioning our reality too. which can be infuriating and make us even more upset. um And so that's why it just kind of lands sideways and makes things worse. And all of a sudden I feel like now you're the enemy. You're not on the same team as me. You're not my partner here.
00:11:12
Speaker
And oh my gosh, how did
Jessica's Journey to Relationship Studies
00:11:13
Speaker
we get here? Why is this going sideways so fast? yeah Yeah. So then what do we do? What does a guy do at that point? Like how do you shift gears? Yeah.
00:11:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question. So there's a few different ways to look at this. When I was a chemist, I was studying chemical bonding, of course. How do atoms but um bind? how do How do you create a bond? So I spent many, many years studying bonding at the molecular level.
00:11:44
Speaker
Then what actually happened was I was married. And interestingly enough, my ex-husband is a therapist. And so in my marriage, I was running all of these unconscious narratives about roles, um about how people are supposed to communicate, about how relationships should work. And I was just playing out a playbook that had been handed to me that I had absorbed and I had never made it explicit. I had never questioned it. Mm-hmm.
00:12:15
Speaker
And this caused so much tension and friction in my marriage um because we never talked about expectations or what would what would look like a great connection or what are own ideas about what marriage is for, you know, goals and visions and things like that, or communication, ways of communicating that would work well between us. We never sat down and talked about that.
00:12:43
Speaker
It just kept butting heads. Even, you know, I remember at one point um he said to me, you know, Jessica, you don't need to be defensive all the time.
00:12:54
Speaker
And i was like, what are you talking about? Of course I have to defend myself. Otherwise everyone's gonna walk all over me. It did not compute at all. Like the idea of communicating differently felt even shameful to me and just like wasn't available.
00:13:12
Speaker
And so a lot of us have these internalized paradigms about relating communication and emotions that are governing our lives and our relationships.
00:13:24
Speaker
And they cause a lot of harm if not made explicit and worked with. And so you know what ended up happening is we ended up not staying together, although I learned a lot and I'm really grateful for that.
00:13:39
Speaker
um And then it was after that, that I started studying relationships. And only then after ah after my divorce that I learned all of the tools and all of the knowledge that existed that could have actually helped me with my relationship.
00:13:57
Speaker
And I couldn't believe that in all my years of studying bonding as a scientist, I had never had a single class on how to have healthy relationships or how how to have a good romantic bond.
00:14:09
Speaker
So that's why I do this work. and So part of my answer is take a step back from he said, she said, who's right, who's wrong.
00:14:21
Speaker
And this individual where you feel like it's all on you to fix this. Take a step back and look at the system as a whole. ah Forgive yourself. Give yourself permission to think, okay, how do we strengthen the health of the connection between the two of us without blaming or
Systems Approach to Relationships
00:14:41
Speaker
shaming anyone?
00:14:42
Speaker
what How does the system here need to shift? I love this framework because this is exactly what I did as a chemist when I was working in lab So let's say I was trying to build a particular molecule. I had to do a series of reactions to create the molecule that I wanted to to create.
00:15:03
Speaker
They were all experimental. I didn't know if they were going to work or not. So if I was trying to get two substances to bond um and it wasn't working, There is no way like pushing harder, just adding more reactant starting material, like adding more of the same thing that never, ever worked.
00:15:23
Speaker
Like as a scientist, every single time I had to take a step back and look at the system as a whole, meaning. Yeah. What are the reaction conditions here? Like, do I have the right solvent?
00:15:34
Speaker
Do I have the right temperature? Do I need a catalyst? Do I have the right catalyst? Is my glassware the right type of glassware for this reaction? you know, are my reaction materials pure enough? All sorts of like system level questions. You have to take a step back.
00:15:52
Speaker
And in no case did yelling at my reaction ever make it work better. um i just like to say that. Yeah. Well, no, it's so true because like that doesn't fix in a relationship.
00:16:03
Speaker
We think that yelling or criticizing more, you know again, we don't, I think it's a nat it's a defense mechanism of learned behavior, but it doesn't bond people more. It just creates a bigger wedge.
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, yelling, like beating yourself up. Oh, totally. Right. But even, even yelling at your partner. I mean, I think there's also, I've seen that happen. Like, well, if I,
00:16:25
Speaker
If I get big and verbose, they'll have to pay attention to me. Right. You know, because now I'm big um and loud. And so you can't miss it. Like I'm going to force myself to be heard. I've seen that play out. And I've also seen it the other way where it's the inner inner yelling, the shame, guilt, internal weight. But I've seen it play out both ways that you're right. It doesn't increase bonding. If anything, increase it increases bondage. more survival mechanisms of like, okay, I got to defend or protect or shut down because now i'm increasing the relational tension either internally or within my between me and my partner.
00:16:59
Speaker
But again, if you don't have a good model for this, you're going to do what you saw done. You're going to probably model what was modeled to you that feels more familiar or natural because you're right. We weren't taught a lot of this school.
00:17:12
Speaker
if at all. um We've taught other things, chemistry, biology, English, math, history. Great. But the problem is most of the pain, why people come in, they don't come in to see you because their their pain point is math homework.
00:17:27
Speaker
At least at this phase of life. Or writing a sentence. While that's important, no, they're coming in because they're struggling interpersonally, which is actually, oddly enough, the most important thing in any business and or relationships.
Relational Learning for Men
00:17:39
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. You know, the, the, the Harvard study on happiness, the 85 year study they did, yeah. Found that relational satisfaction was the key indicator of happiness in life. yeah So this is a very important thing to study. So I guess one of my answers to your question, I have two answers. I have um a theoretical answer and a practical answer of what to do instead. Okay. I love both.
00:18:05
Speaker
So what's the, what's the practical answer? Yeah. The practical answer is to get really nerdy about... i think this is the answer to a lot of things in life. Yeah, sure. I mean, I was with a lot of nerds at MIT, so of course I'm i'm partial. But um let yourself really...
00:18:31
Speaker
Enjoy, relish, find a pleasure in studying relationships and studying your nervous system, communication, all that stuff. Even if it feels a little uncouth, a little shameful at first. Listen, I know it felt that way for me. It was just not done right. My vector of awareness was supposed to be out at all times. The idea of introspection was nowhere in my upbringing.
00:18:54
Speaker
But I can tell you it's far more powerful. And so a lot of the men I work with have built and sold companies. They're very successful. They have gotten really nerdy and studied everything about business. You know, like had a business mentor, gone really deep into that, studied everything about health, longevity, fitness, right? Like had a fitness coach, gone really deep into strength training, all of the supplements, all of that, you can give yourself permission to
00:19:26
Speaker
um go into a field of study and I think just one of the blind spots is not giving yourself permission to go into relationships as a field of study.
00:19:37
Speaker
For some reason, it's so strong in the water that like you're already supposed to know. it should just be natural. yeah and Anything you found just why men struggle with that 10 more from your perspective? i'm just curious. Yeah.
00:19:52
Speaker
Well, what I've found is that part of the definition of masculinity is always already knowing the answer and to be invulnerable and engaging a field of study, letting yourself be a beginner at something comes with some layer of vulnerability.
00:20:09
Speaker
You have to be able to say, gosh, I don't know, or I might get this wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, because what is that, what fear, when the men you work with, what fear do you think it tends to bump up against for you that you've seen?
00:20:24
Speaker
Well, a lot of guys tell me, um isn't it unattractive to say I don't know or to reveal what's going on for me in my inner world?
00:20:35
Speaker
um A lot of that and fear of being seen as not competent, not successful. Yeah. And what do you think is behind that fear? Like, well, I'm not competent, if I'm not successful, or then what might happen? What do they get to, do you think?
00:20:51
Speaker
Because of the particular work that I do, often the fear behind that is then she won't want me. Yeah. Because I find that men's hearts are so tender and and and kind and sweet and you know the The clients I work with, they really want to be loved, want to know that it's okay, that their desire is welcome and okay. They want to know that they're one of the good guys and they want to be wanted by her.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, there's so much very extreme bullshit in the world. You know, the status quo in our culture is, you know, masculinity. You're only going to be wanted if you're always right.
00:21:38
Speaker
If you're very strong, invulnerable, very successful. It's all these external markers that seem to be what count. And that is one of the biggest lies that we've ever sold men.
00:21:52
Speaker
Yeah. No, it's really sad because you're right. It keeps it that creates more division um ah in relationships because it's fear-based thinking. It's all fear-based and shame-based that I must because if I don't, then I i won't be wanted. If I'm not wanted, I'll be alone.
00:22:07
Speaker
If I'm alone, then what am I? I'm a failure. I'm not enough. I'm fill in the blank. right I think a lot of men I've heard fear being not enough and a failure. Those are two big things. When you drill it down of like why they're doing this is behind that to your point too is that, oh, not only will she leave me or not want to be with me or whatever, it's because I'm not enough. I didn't do enough. And then it goes back to I got to perform more. And it creates this loop, right, of like more performance, more this, more success to then make sure and improve. But as we know, that's not the solution in our in a personal relationship.
00:22:40
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Because the spouse is not a the spouse is on a job performance of more sales numbers, even if that's praised at work. um And so your so your practical answer is, hey, we've got to have a new blueprint, right? We've got to actually become nerdy, nerd out on the science of relationship.
00:22:59
Speaker
um And so where do you tend to have guys start there? Like where do you have them begin that process? Uh-huh. Yeah, so I have a method that I like to call relationship chemistry. And the first one is about your inner chemistry. So it's like I was saying before, like, do you have the right glassware for this reaction? the analogy is... um To put it in terms of maybe polyvagal theory, like where is your window of tolerance? um How are you relating to your inner world, to your emotions? Where do you know that you tend to go out of balance? What are your known triggers? and Just really taking an inner inventory of what is true for you without feeling like you have to be different, you have to be stronger or better, but what is actually so when it comes to who you are as a man and what's real in your inner world?
00:23:57
Speaker
Yeah. A lot of guys have never been able to meet themselves in that way without feeling ashamed or blamed or something like that. And so it can be so powerful to say like, okay, what, what puts me off balance? What do I need?
00:24:12
Speaker
And how am I going to expand my window of tolerance? Once you get to know your internal world, then there are practices. And these are things that I've done in my life. They increase what's called the ledge of freedom between my reaction and how i respond.
00:24:29
Speaker
And so that can be, I work with my clients to figure out, you know, do we want to, is breath work something that works really well for them? Like different sorts of breathing practices, whether yogic breathing practices or more modern ones that are like circular breathing. And what is something you can do like that, like develop as a reflex in the moment.
00:24:50
Speaker
So both as a practice you do on your own for two to five minutes a day, just for a few weeks until it gets ingrained. And then you start to have that ah resource that just comes online without you having to think about it.
00:25:05
Speaker
So that's the first things like grounding, breathing, like, okay, what do I need to do in order to pause before I go into my habitual reactions? and there's so many practical tools in the world. I'm one of those people who takes approach spectrum approach to things. So just like doing a literature review in science, like what are all the things the leading experts have said in the world about this? So I also take that approach to relationships. And then i have my own practices that I really love. And then I decide, okay, what's going to work best for this particular client?
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah. And the second thing is to figure out, okay, what's going on in the relational chemistry between the two of us? um What needs to shift here? Like what's going to help her feel heard and what's going to help me, you know, stay calm and grounded and not go into my old patterns of fixing or needing to be right.
00:26:03
Speaker
And the third thing that I often teach is then about erotic chemistry, but that comes up in a different way. in a different moment in a relationship when it's not about coming home from work. Yeah,
Therapy as a Practice Space
00:26:14
Speaker
which makes sense. i mean, you got to have that emotional connection safety first, which then builds upon, I'm sure, the erotic chemistry as well. I'm making an assumption here um based on what I know about relationships and relational safety.
00:26:26
Speaker
i love what you kind of shared this practical step of learning, and you're right, a new skill. And how how have you seen men respond to that when you help them, guide them along these kind of initial skill work of learning out of themselves, knowing themselves, what's going on, and building their emotional, I'm guessing, their emotional intelligence and language within their own inner world.
00:26:43
Speaker
Because a classic thing I'm sure you've heard before, I know i've I've heard this many times, is I'm good. I'm doing good. you know As they're sitting in your office or paying you to work on their relationship, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm great. you know it's that That's the emotional language usually is like, good, fine, okay. ah What's happening in your body?
00:27:04
Speaker
I don't know. What do you mean my body? Yeah. Nothing is happening in my body. So I'm i'm sure what do you what's one thing you've done with those types of men? I'm guessing you've had that before. um How do you help those types of men begin to get in touch with practically exp expansion of emotional language, emotional vocabulary, get into their body?
00:27:23
Speaker
What have you found successful? So what I find often works is having the experience of meeting them where they're and on a rational, logical level and just really affirming and validating, like, I get it, you're good. Like it all makes sense.
00:27:39
Speaker
And that's very reasonable, totally great. Usually what happens is there' enough there's enough rapport is that they start to slowly talk about something that's actually coming up and bothering them.
00:27:53
Speaker
I can also feel it. Like that's part of my job is to notice like, what am I feeling here? That's maybe not being said. And so I may start to just ask them, are you feeling a little bit of fear here?
00:28:08
Speaker
Or is there some anger under there? Because I can feel something. Yeah. So i will start to prompt a little bit and just give a lot of permission for whatever it is to be there. And then they and then what's really interesting is when he connects with what's true for him beneath the surface,
00:28:31
Speaker
and says it, it's like the room clears. It's so obvious. I'm like, oh That's what was going on. Right. And I can give exactly that reflection. And then he just feels it. There's it's in the body. He's like, yeah, yeah there's a relief.
00:28:53
Speaker
So there's no need to argue because we just had both of us like a felt experience of the emotion underneath. and And that's the that's what's so helpful. Like working with the provider is like a catalyst. Because you can get to places like that with a person who's really there holding you in unconditional positive regard, like a therapist or a coach. who's not your partner, who's not going to just be reactive in the same ways.
00:29:22
Speaker
And so you start to feel safe to open up and to connect with parts of yourself that you might have suppressed. yeah So that's like one way. It's like training. It's like a training
Chemical Bonding and Relationship Dynamics
00:29:33
Speaker
ground, right? With you, because you're not going to, you're right. There's a different level of risk with you or me than their partner, right? Cause it's not, they can more freedom to play and get it wrong, so to speak. um And, not have it right because it's a low risk. Like I'm not going to get upset, judge, shame.
00:29:52
Speaker
I'm sure you're not either. And so that's what you start with. and that's some of the practical things you do. And then you mentioned this theoretical concept. I'm curious, can you give us a little hint into what that is about? Yeah. As a chemist, you know, having studied bonding at the molecular level, as I mentioned for so long, I've when I started studying romantic bonding and at this point I've studied romantic bonding for longer than I was studying chemistry. So it took a really deep dive to change my career there, just to be clear. Um, so I started, i but I couldn't, I still couldn't stop asking myself the question, like, is there a parallel here?
00:30:31
Speaker
and is, is there actual, um, does it relate in a more formal sense rather than just as a pretty analogy? You know, a pretty analogy is something like your eyes are as blue as the sky.
00:30:47
Speaker
Okay, great. That's evocative and beautiful, but like your eyes in the sky don't share the same underlying structure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it turns out, and this just blows my mind. I cannot believe it. this just i It makes me smile every day. And I think this gives yeah um analytical, logical people so much permission to think about relationships in a new way. And here it is. Okay, it turns out that...
00:31:14
Speaker
ah John Gottman collected tons and tons of research on couples from the Love Lab, where he hooked them up to all kinds of measurements and real couples over longitudinal studies. He took all of that data and he worked with a biological mathematician named James Murray to apply a certain kind of nonlinear differential equations to the data on couples.
00:31:39
Speaker
And it turns out that the equations were actually able to reproduce, categorize and predict what couples actually do. so differential equations, technically they were difference equations, but that's getting into the math weeds there. But so they applied a particular set of equations to how couples behave and it worked. You can use math to predict how couples interact. It just blows my mind, but here's the best part.
00:32:08
Speaker
It turns out that though that same class of equations can actually also be applied to chemical reactions. um Not all chemical reactions, but certain chemical reactions.
00:32:23
Speaker
yeah And so what I want to say is that the same math applies. For example, one of the chemistry problems that this math applies to is how hemoglobin binds oxygen.
00:32:38
Speaker
And so just to think about that the same mathematical equation that describes how hemoglobin binds oxygen, um it's like an allosteric coupling because one molecule of oxygen binding makes the second ah a molecule binding more favorable. And this sort of thing also describes how couples relate to each other, how couples emotional states influence each other. And so,
00:33:06
Speaker
I think that that is so amazing that you can actually use math to describe both of these things that seem unrelated.
High Leverage Interventions
00:33:14
Speaker
No, totally. So here's the reason this matters for you on a practical level. um Systems theorists have worked out what are the highest leverage places to intervene in a system? If you have a dynamic nonlinear system and you want to shift its behavior, what is the best way to do that?
00:33:37
Speaker
And we've figured out that ah actually the best way to do that is things like fixing the way information flows in the system, fixing the rules of the system, um fixing um how you are able to grow, how the system can grow and evolve.
00:33:58
Speaker
And then the last two, which are the most important is um considering the goals and the entire paradigm of the system. So what this means on a practical level for couples is that adding more of the same inputs like pleading or trying harder, these are low leverage interventions that don't work to move the system.
00:34:21
Speaker
and Before you beat yourself up, I want to say that systems theorists say that almost everyone defaults to the lowest leverage moves when trying to address problems in a system. yeah um And here's where it gets really practical. The highest leverage moves are going to be things like having a conversation with your wife about what are our goals in our relationship?
00:34:43
Speaker
What is the meaning of love to us? What is the meaning of relationship? Also, what does sex mean to us? um And what is your vision for your life together?
00:34:56
Speaker
no one that I've worked with has had that conversation. Most couples never sit down and do this. And this can change like the goals, the meaning, the paradigm can shift from pre-kids to during kids to after kids, for example. Sure.
00:35:11
Speaker
So it's something you can have over the life of your relationship together. Yeah. But even on a simpler level, like given coming back to the example we've been using of like you come home from work, she's upset about something and then you get dysregulated, don't know what to do.
00:35:26
Speaker
How does this help you there? Well, what that means is outside of that crucial moment, You need to sit down with your wife and say, hey, something's not working about when I come home and you're emotional. I'm not knowing how to deal with this well. Can we work together to figure out how to make the information flow between us um work in a better way? Can we reconnect with what are our goals for our relationship and our connection in that moment?
00:35:55
Speaker
Can we change the whole paradigm of what's happening there? Yeah. Yeah. So that was a long-winded way to say chemical bonding does have things that are related to romantic bonding. Yeah. No, and I love that. i think i think you're so right is the low level versus high level. I think that's so important because often couples come in with focus on the low the lowest like the lowest level,
00:36:20
Speaker
which is you know in a way that I think the it's problematic because then it just becomes about the problem of the week. right It just becomes a gripe session about what he or she didn't do or how they failed rather than what's the high level meaning. what's I love the goal because it it orients them under one umbrella of team approach that, hey, this is our shared goal and vision. What are we doing to help one another and ourselves take step towards that goal versus just the low-level stuff, which doesn't move the needle much.
Recommended Resources for Marital Dynamics
00:36:53
Speaker
And the Gottmans are great, yes. I've read a lot of their stuff and used to teach a Gottman training course for years. And it's great. I love their research is that to predict outcomes and very science-backed as far as, hey, these things um scientifically will lead to well higher rates of conflict and...
00:37:14
Speaker
predict divorce versus here's some things we found that's been shown in the love lab over and over and over and over and over and over and over again what's really going underneath the hood and steps you can take um you know I know their latest book was called fight right how do we effectively have conflict that's more bonding and creating connection which is actually helping the whole system to move forward if a guy came what would you if you could if you could speak to a guy right now who's kind of in this state like what would you say to a man to like who's successful, who looks like he's got it all together, but feels disconnected from himself or people closest to him, like what would be the encouragement? How would you invite him in to take, to nerd out, so to speak, I guess, to, to quote you?
00:37:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I've had so many clients who tell me they're just sought after at work and then at home it's like the ice cave. And so they feel like an imposter. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:09
Speaker
Well, like I said, a lot of the times um the men I work with are hungry. They already really want to know how to make this better. Like they're problem solvers. Right.
00:38:22
Speaker
And it depends on who it is, but... For example, i um I often recommend a lot of books and, you know, it depends if he likes to read or not, but um ah some people have heard of Gottman's work, but no one has ever heard of the book he wrote with James Murray called The Mathematics of Marriage.
00:38:43
Speaker
Hmm. So if you're really skeptical and you want a very logical way to approach this, I mean, that book is about differential equations and marriage.
00:38:56
Speaker
I've actually not read that book. I read ah most everything else he's done, but
The Role of Men's Groups
00:39:00
Speaker
I've not read that book. So I need i need to buy that book now. No one has heard of it. No. yeah I read Seven Principles Making Marriage Work, which is the classic book, Fight Right, and a lot of his research articles, but not that book.
00:39:12
Speaker
So you're right. I have not read it. i need to get that down then. Yeah. But, you know, when you're hungry, it's easier to access things. There's so much out there. There's also this program originally developed by Google, and which I took and now I can't remember the name. Oh, it's called Search Inside Yourself.
00:39:32
Speaker
which was for Google engineers. And it's all the research on why mindfulness is more effective for your life, for happiness, for relationships, why it's actually the most powerful thing. You know, it's about working with your nervous system to developing that ledge of freedom. so Just to say there's a lot of science-backed ah resources out there, um because I know as a scientist, I find this field to be maddening sometimes because a lot of people make a lot of sweeping claims and it's just their opinion a lot of the time. And so I'm interested in, well, okay, sometimes that is useful. And what also does research tell us? um
00:40:13
Speaker
yeah But the two other ways I would answer your question is that I think one of the first and most helpful steps is finding someone to talk to who is not going to shame you or blame you, who's going to help you feel really understood. And um that is the first step that can open up everything else. um Once you have a chance to bring your real gripes and your real dilemmas and your real desires, and someone says, hey, that makes sense. It's totally understandable why you would want that and why you would feel that way.
00:40:51
Speaker
um It's such a huge relief. Yeah. And the next step that I would say is joining a men's group. I often um ask my clients to do that. That can seem like the scariest thing for men.
00:41:06
Speaker
And once they do, once they figure out, okay, can I really trust this group? Who are these people? Is it actually safe to open up? yeah it It changes things so fast. You want a high leverage move? That's a high leverage move.
00:41:24
Speaker
And your brain is going to learn so quickly from the stories of other men and from the examples of other men. It will give you the permission, get through your defenses and help your life transform in amazing ways you can't even imagine. Yeah. No, thank you for that. and i think that's all of that is good. And I need to get that book, by the way. so I'm saying it again because I need to get that book and say the book name again.
00:41:49
Speaker
um The Mathematics of Marriage. Yeah, I'm going get that one for sure. And soon as we're done, I'm actually going to order it and read it. Because, again, i've read I've read many books. And that is one I've not read. And you're right. So if I haven't heard it, no one's heard of it. I'm just kidding. um But I'm going to read it. It sounds interesting. and um yeah And then as far as the group work, 100%. Because I do men's group coaching. And I used to do men's therapy groups. I know i do men's group coaching. And you're right. It takes one guy.
00:42:15
Speaker
to to create the safety and also the the bears drop and also everyone's sharing because it just takes one guy to risk and it's so i'll say this it is 10 times faster than them seeing me one-on-one. Now, difference with one-on-one, I could do a deep dive, very different. Group work, though, as far as reducing shame,
00:42:34
Speaker
like ah
Resources for Improving Relationship Skills
00:42:36
Speaker
the lies, like being seen and understood, it's like magic because I do nothing. Well, want to that. I create the space. but It takes one guy to say it and it's, it's everyone's nodding and then everyone starts talking and we're off to the races way faster than me and him because it's like, of course I'm going to say it, right? That's classic. Well, of course you're to say this because like I've heard you're, I'm paying you to do it. So of course, you know, that's your job. Right. You've other guys that they're in for the same thing. It's like, bam. So I love that moment when it happens and it happens usually pretty quick and early on, but it takes one guy to risk and that's always the,
00:43:13
Speaker
see You know, that's always the risk, right? Who's going to speak first? I actually run a men's group too, which is unusual because I'm a woman running a men's group. So it's a different kind of men's group. um And it is for, it is however, only for men who have done at least six months of work with me so that everyone who's there has a baseline, a shared language. And so it's a little bit less, um,
00:43:40
Speaker
um uncomfortable um and I've done you know retreats with my men's group and these guys have been connected to each other for years and years and years at this point and it is so awesome to see yeah yeah I love that and speaking of if people if men ah want to find your work and what you do where can we find you where should we point them Yeah, absolutely. So i have a freebie. It's an audio series of three audios that are less than 30 minutes long. So you can listen to them in the car, at the gym, while you're traveling. It's called the chemistry experiment. So it's a low stakes way to do an experiment on your relationship, on your marriage by making some of the highest leverage changes that you can make.
00:44:31
Speaker
And it's at bliss-science.com slash experiment. Bliss-science.com slash experiment. And if you want to know more about, you know, applying systems thinking to your relationship and how that can help you and also how you can get really practical and make shifts that matter right away, that's what it's for.
00:44:54
Speaker
um I also run a six month program called Relationship Reboot. And I created this program after years and years of holding men and couples in one on one and noticing What are the interventions that I did step by step that actually moved the needle for them and helped them have a better sex life? And so then I took those interventions and put them in the relationship reboot.
00:45:16
Speaker
It's also an audio only program that you can listen to in total privacy. And there's a self-guided version. And then there's a guided version where you get one-on-ones with me as part of it.
00:45:28
Speaker
Oh, great. That's awesome. Yeah, i love I love both as far as i would say low barrier to entry, um especially the freebies. Like, yeah, you're right. Like, okay, take an hour a half of your life, listen to it.
00:45:41
Speaker
You know, worst case is I guess they waste an hour and a half. They probably won't, but that's the worst case is that nothing happens, right? um And I love that. I love that they could do it anytime and then check it out. And then even the self-paced course, it's great, you know, low risk, right?
00:45:56
Speaker
But yes, all that stuff will be, those that are listening, all of it is in the link in the description, um whether you're on YouTube or linked to Spotify or Apple. It's all there. It's clickable to take you to Jessica's freebie course and her website, everything else that she's doing. also link the TED Talk just to have it out there for people to watch because I think it's a great TED Talk. And but that's you know the first thing I saw of your work. And I was like, absolutely, we got to talk about this. you know Chemist.
00:46:22
Speaker
Chemist turned chemist, I guess, if you will. um and And also you're you know hearing but a but bit about your experience and your your like blueprint.
00:46:32
Speaker
And so um thank you so much for your work and also your passion for men. I love it that it takes men and women to help men. and I think as we help men and fathers, we help everyone else. Yeah. And it's not a zero-sum game. It's actually as we help and train more holistically, that helps everybody else be more safe, more connected, more relational. And that's that's the beauty of, I think, the work that you're doing and that we're all doing here is it's a shared it's a shared mission. And I love that you're doing this. So thank you for the work that you do.
00:47:02
Speaker
You're very welcome. It's an honor, truly, with for everyone who has sat with me in my practice. I've been so honored. Yeah.