Transcript
Speaker: Hello, welcome to another episode of Gendered Focus. I'm Elle and I'm here with Kai. Hello. Hello. Hello. How's it going? It's going so well, thank you. How are you?
Speaker: i'm also doing well. Maybe a little tired, but you know, all in all, well. my I don't know if you can hear, and I know I've mentioned this in other episodes before, but whenever I'm recording an episode, just down to my right, my dogs have a dog bed and they pile in because i're like, oh, mama's busy. They pile in and they start loudly snoring, like rattling the windows level snoring. Wow. It's really cute. But i don't know if you can hear that. so No. They are not sleeping on your behalf.
Speaker: Okay, well, thank you for modeling good resting behavior. Mm-hmm. What I love about dogs when they like are passed out, there's just legs everywhere. like my My dog's legs are all over the place. They're just flailing about.
Speaker: They're very cute. They're properly passed out. Dang. So I guess we should start talking about what we're here to talk about. Over the past few years, there has been a pretty significant increase in public conversations or like political debates or media coverage about trans people. and Some of those conversations have been positive. There have been a lot more maybe acceptance and people understanding trans and non-binary people, but a lot of it has been pretty challenging to the trans people. It can feel feel very overwhelming. And so that's kind of what we wanted to talk about today was the the impact of what we're seeing in the world on trans and non-binary people and specifically how organizations can be
Speaker: what what organizations can put in place to kind of support trans and non-binary people. I would imagine that a lot of um organizations and HR especially are like, what do we do? I would imagine that it's a bit of a tricky time right now.
Speaker: um So yeah, that's what I want to talk to you about today. Excellent. I'm so excited to unpack it. I wanted to start before getting into what organizations can do. i just wanted to ask about seeing these negative headlines almost every day, what impact that can have on trans and non-binary people more generally, and then also showing up at work even like when you're sort of having this barrage of bad news essentially.
Speaker: Yeah, it's such a good way of putting it. It really is like, you know, just tidal wave of things that are happening. And, you know, people pay varying attention to what's happening, too. So don't want to say all trans and non-binary folks are, you know, glued to their television or on their phone, scrolling endlessly on this. But yeah.
Speaker: For the most part, a lot of folks are hyper aware of what's happening, you know, whether here in Canada, down in the United States, you around the world, there is a very noticeable shift to towards like anti-trans sentiment. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: board, like then also cascading into changes in legislation that are not supportive of trans and non-binary folks. There are court cases that are contesting various aspects, whether it's access to washrooms or gender affirming care or Trans people in sport, you know, the list is endless. it I mean, i can't tell you the number of times I'm listening to a podcast on any number of topics not related to gender and suddenly trans pops up, right? Oh my gosh, so true. It's so ever present, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: because people provide examples and are like trans issues. And I'm like, oh, wow, I thought I could just chill and, you know, listen to a podcast about dogs, but suddenly we're on the topic of trans people. um And it creates a bit of a kind of a whiplash in trans and non-binary folks, or it can And ah just you know wanting to know where it's safe ah becomes this like ongoing, very complex calculus, right?
Speaker: Whether navigating the day-to-day interactions in person or online discourse and wading into topics that are political flashpoints. um There's all kinds of things that are happening to folks because of this shift that's happened.
Speaker: And it can really impact people's sense of safety, their ability to focus, right? If something has just been passed, I know when United States Supreme Court, the Scrimetti case ruled against trans and non-binary folks, I wasn't able to focus that day or even the rest of that week very much, right? It really had an impact on me. i was like, shoot, we're really going backwards here in and a scary way.
Speaker: And then also a sense of belonging to kind of who has my back? Where do I go? Where do I belong? What's going to happen um can feel very unsettling. So those are just some of the dynamics around and they do impact how people show up at work, not just in their day-to-day lives. So it's ah an important workplace matter.
Speaker: oh I really wanted to touch on sort of how easy it can be to dismiss that as like, oh, but these are political issues, nothing, like we come here, we just need to get on with our work and how it's important to not just dismiss that as something outside of the workplace and, yeah you know, deal with that in your private life. Yeah, absolutely. um I think that's a really easy way for for organizations not to handle complex issues that they're involved in. Like yeah everybody is involved with these things, whether they're able to see it directly or not. And they impact not just their employees or their staff or their contractors, um but impacts.
Speaker: kind of impacts how society um treats other people and is usually kind of a litmus test if we treat kind of the least among us or the most marginalized, usually gives an indication of how others are going to be treated as well. For sure.
Speaker: canary in the mine type of vibes. People think, oh, that's like a separate issue that has nothing to do with me and doesn't impact me. It's like, well, eventually it can impact others beyond trans and non-binary folks. So obviously that shouldn't be the only reason why we pay attention to trans folks.
Speaker: But it's an important part of that understanding. And it's oftentimes people want to say this is a political issue, um which is just an easy way to dismiss. But actually, it's about humanity, how we treat each other, the values that we have. just There's so much kind of baked into it that we can't kind of just like put it to the side. Obviously people do, um but there is a great cost to putting it to the side and including people leaving the organization because they, you know, can't find a way to be a part of it or and people kind of suffer in silence and that has an impact on how they're able to show up at work. Just a few kind of impacts on not just the individual, but also the organization.
Speaker: who There is a balance, I would imagine, ah having not worked in a real, I've not had a real job. This is my job right now. So I haven't really had a real one. But I would imagine that there is this sort of tension between um wanting to be supportive and not knowing what to say, but then sometimes potentially overdoing it and commenting on every single thing that comes up, which is... quite a lot I would imagine for trans people to handle and so yeah how I wanted to get your thoughts on finding that balance of like not getting involved in every single thing but at the same time not just pretending it's not happening and like right you know what I mean finding that balance
Speaker: yeah Yeah. So we're talking about two extremes and we're wanting to find kind of a middle ground that's more sustainable and more authentic too, right? Because yeah people usually feel like a quick statement put together in haste versus like being able to show up in the everyday.
Speaker: when we do research or or survey trans and non-binary folks, when they may mention examples of inclusion, because we don't just ask about the negative things, we ask about the positive things. And the key thing there is these subtle, everyday, meaningful actions that people take or that organizations take to show that they're committed um and that they have the backs of trans and non-binary folks. So they're actually not looking for the big grand statements and, you know, sure, if you want to go to pride, go to pride. um But really, it's the taking care of of names and pronouns, respectful communications, having considered benefits, even if those benefits are not accessed by the trans and non-binary person, just knowing that they exist and for others is a big deal. It's huge sign, right?
Speaker: um And then just having created a workplace culture where respect is at the foundation of that respect of individuals um and and their identity without having to question or or, you know, tell me who, like, show me that you're really trans, that kind of Mm-hmm.
Speaker: You know, those things can go a long way. And even having moments of educating folks so that that doesn't put all the educating on the trans and non-binary person. So these everyday inclusion efforts mean far more than um than say those big statements or having to so respond to every single thing right it's more of a a broader um lived experience than it is about kind of performing uh inclusion so those things tend to go much further And actually more sustainable too, right?
Speaker: Because they're usually based on interactions. There are some systemic pieces, but those can be handled, you know, in a gradual step-by-step manner that is also sustainable.
Speaker: who You snatched the next question out of my mouth just then. Because I i wanted to talk about being performative and and how if an organization does want to communicate support ah about something specific that's happened.
Speaker: And, you know, you just mentioned about and performing. performing allyship or performing support. But you also mentioned things like going to pride and things like that. For a lot of people, especially in the time that we're in now, that kind of action can feel very performative because it's like, okay, you're going to pride, but like, where's my like healthcare care benefits. And it can feel very like, it doesn't mean anything when you're just showing up at pride and waving a flag. I want to get deeper into that kind of performative nature of things. Why that seems to be the default is like, I i guess it's a little bit easier to handle. Like we'll wave our pride flag and then go on with our lives. But how it's so much more meaningful to trans and non-binary people, even if if you actually skipped pride altogether. I think what's happening is that people are looking for quick and easy because in society, we're set up in that way. we were kind of like one and done. That's why the statements and going to pride, They're kind of one thing, it's big-ish, and we can point to it, too. So it's tangible. It's like, okay, we did that thing, you know, and it was um important and whatnot. so
Speaker: But really, and what's much more of a practice is the day-to-day pieces um and being able to show up. And that includes recovering from mistakes. I think sometimes people are all about, let's avoid mistakes at all costs. And if we make a mistake, we're going to like melt into you know a puddle of shame and float away. And it's actually like, no.
Speaker: When a mistake is made and you make a matter of fact correction or thank somebody for notice, you know, pointing it out to you and commit to that extra practice. Like these don't feel very, for lack a better word, sexy. Right.
Speaker: But they're actually like, they don't have. We want sexy. Razzle dazzle to them. You know, it's like. But this is the stuff that with one's own corrections or you know receiving the corrections from others, um understanding what the needs of that person are, um you know supporting them in in their own ways, those can make a marked difference.
Speaker: Because what it provides is this counterbalance to what's happening outside, right? So outside, there's a kind of a tornado of mess, anti-trans mess.
Speaker: And then to have one glimmer of like acceptance and understanding and support, that it it has an outsized effect because of how crappy things are. and And provides that hope for what could and hopefully eventually will be. Right. And so it's this entry point. um Because right now, a lot of trans and non-binary folks are kind of hunkering down, trying to, you know, ride this storm out literally. And hope is a huge part of being able to make it through. Right. So these everyday things that people do, even though they don't feel very big, are really, really important.
Speaker: That's so true about what you were saying about how hope can really, like like, just a little glimmer of something can really keep you going when you're seeing such a huge, like, what did you say? a tornado of, what did you call it? Anti-trans mess.
Speaker: A tornado of anti-trans mess. That is fabulous. That's such a great way of describing what it is. Hashtag. We're going to... trademark that one um but yeah it's like it's so much to handle so just these little glimmers of hope in a place that you spend so much time like we spend so much time at work and it's not easy to just ignore something you know in there's a huge chunk of our day so i think that's that's a nice way of putting it I wanted to ask about the role that managers play during things like this because I don't know if something's happened and a trans employee is feeling particularly vulnerable. I think the role of a manager can be really impactful.
Speaker: good Oh yeah, this is huge. This is where people spend a lot of time and interacting with the organization. Probably not as much in the higher levels, right? Depending on the role of the the trans or non-binary person. um But the given the safety issues that many face and the backtracking that's happening,
Speaker: People are looking for any clue that things are safe or that you know the organization will be there for them. um And sometimes if there's silence, people in interpret that as a kind of a retreat. Rather than matter of factly talking about these issues and and making it known that the organizations are there for their employees. And that includes managers and because they're often the ones that are interacting with trans person or the first at least. um
Speaker: And often managers, at least in our experience, don't know how to handle these issues or the specific needs and can be a bit of deer in headlights. um When somebody asks for something like, how do I navigate washrooms or or I'm having this problem in the washroom?
Speaker: because now it's become a flashpoint, right? So this is how that kind of anti-trans backlash shows up materially in the day-to-day workplace situations.
Speaker: And then often managers are like, this is like, both sides need to resolve it themselves because this is not a, it's like a political issue air quotes, or this is a social issue. i I'm, you know, sometimes if, especially if the manager is cisgender, they will side with the cisgender person on the issue, misunderstanding the need or the gravity of the situation for the trans person.
Speaker: And so that's where they can be offside of what's actually legally required, especially in Canada, right? so preparing managers to properly handle these situations and issues related to trans and non-binary folks is a huge huge thing and not just for trans and non-binary folks but for the managers because they're they're wanting best clarity they just don't know what it entails so they're like please tell me trans people in washrooms are is such a huge part of the debate. And so I can imagine that that comes up or could come up in the workplace for sure, where it wasn't an issue before because there's so much focus on it. It's now become an issue. And yeah and I sort of think that that could be extended to
Speaker: other things too, like if we talk about sports or, you know, conversations happen at work and it would, I would imagine be pretty easy to see that going a bit wrong or going in a bit of a touchy direction. if controversial news stories or political debates, when like social media arguments start coming into the workplace, it's really hard, I would imagine, for managers to know what to do, or even for HR to know what to do about that and how to kind of handle that conflict. And I was wondering if you had thoughts on that too. Yeah. In fact, this has come up now a handful of times where this, is we're now including it in education sessions, because water cooler conversations at work involve all kinds of current events, right? And, you know, such as trans issues that are a flashpoint, immigration, gaza you know, the list is long where people have very different viewpoints and sometimes...
Speaker: um organizations can have a hands-off approach or they can resort to both-side-ism without recognizing power imbalances and marginalization and systemic barriers. So that makes the conversation much more difficult for, say, a trans and non-binary person to participate in because it's not some theoretical thing for them. This is like a everyday reality that they're having to we're having to navigate and overcome or avoid it's really awful then to have somebody kind of cavalierly be like spouting usually misinformed things about a topic is not cool right and
Speaker: to have managers or HR equipped to say, okay, we obviously want, obviously, but workplace is a place for conversation. It's not about shutting it down. It's about how do we do that in a thoughtful way and a way that is aware and is trauma-informed to understand when somebody doesn't want to be a part of the conversation, right? And, you know, ways to, for especially leaders to be like, kind of read the room, whether it's verbal or nonverbal cues to say, i think we need to continue this conversation another time. It's not to say never, but yeah.
Speaker: You can start to see a conversation going off the rails. That's where we can, you know, regroup to be able to facilitate that conversation in a better way. It probably needs a little more structure for it to be done properly, right? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And um those can be really fruitful, but they have to be done well. They can't kind of be like off the cuff, just wild, wild west set up there.
Speaker: So those are some of the things that employers are realizing are important, right? It's up to avoid the conversation, but it's to do it in ah in a good way that we're not heart adding additional harm to those who are marginalized. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: On that, then, I can imagine that trans people in a workplace, when these things come up, might be the sort of go-to person to talk about these things, too. ah Because there is this, like, oh, you you must have some thoughts on this, which, ah i mean, they probably do have thoughts on it, but it's pretty tough to be seeing it coming into work and then having someone, hey, what do you think about...
Speaker: trans women not being allowed in sports anymore as if it's such such a theoretical thing when this person could be themselves a trans woman who now can no longer play the sport that they played their whole life and and it's not it's not just a fun topic to have a chat about like it's it's really it can have such a big impact or like washrooms that affects your day-to-day life like you even now are not able to really take part in public life because of this issue and so how can HR or managers or the organization more widely support trans employees
Speaker: without putting the burden on them, the burden falls on the trans person to explain all the time. And it's exhausting when you're already dealing with all of this. And so was wondering about, yeah, about what your thoughts are on, on how HR and managers can kind of think about that address it. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Absolutely. It's kind of talking about the hidden cost of being hyper visible, right? So if somebody is out as trans or non-binary in the workplace, um that's great because they assess some sort of safety in the organization. So that's yay for the organization or also yay for the individual for having the strength and care.
Speaker: ability capacity to do that um but then sometimes what happens is the dynamic you were describing of people then reaching out to that person and kind of over relying on them to provide direction give thoughts considerations solve things for cis people that are kind of their own mental blocks rather than something from the trans or non-binary person And i think especially ah HR and leaders can kind of put this unintended pressure on these these staff who are just trying to do their job and kind of survive to this difficult political environment. And then on top of that, they also the need to or sometimes feel the need to take that on because they don't want other trans people having the experiences they're having. So it's almost done out of a duty to others.
Speaker: um It's coming from a community minded perspective, but it's kind of being over leveraged um and underappreciated just how much that is for folks. And so they become educators, spokespersons, defenders, um even put into harm's way to be like, can you go talk to this person who's having an issue with a trans person in the washroom? Like, ah, that's right the very problematic.
Speaker: And so, or even to speak on the issues that are coming up in the media, it's just a lot. And that's where, It's important for HR and leaders to avoid that. Obviously, if somebody who is trans or non-binary is super keen and wants to be involved, we don't want to limit that involvement. um But if they're just going about their business and not raising their hand, we shouldn't turn to them, especially over and over for that. Instead,
Speaker: There are other places to get that information, whether online or Transfocus. We're definitely a resource to to support folks through these kinds of conversations set up, especially with experiences across organizations that can help provide those. cause Just because a trans person has an experience doesn't mean necessarily they have the solution often yeah to the issues too. So those are some of the things and just take anything to take off loads from the backs of trans and non-binary people so much the better.
Speaker: Yeah, we're already dealing with enough. I guess to to close up then I wanted to ask just if if somebody who works in HR or as a manager and, you know, has trans employees or might in the future have trans employees, what is something that you would want them to focus on sort of given the current climate right now?
Speaker: it Just, I don't know, in the next year, just something that they could bring into that? role to support Johnson & Binary people. hey Yeah, I mean, there's quite a few things to choose from. What I encourage is, you know, choosing one aspect to focus on and then deliver on, you know, because I think sometimes people can scatter their attention to so many different avenues and then kind of half do all of them. but never to to complete them. I think it's so valiant. I totally appreciate that desire to want to address all the things because often they can be urgent. And sometimes people are like, hey, when is this going to be done? I'm having a hard time, right? So ah get it. And then also, if the thing that can be completed, that can give momentum to the next thing. So it's not to say that that's the end of the story. It just keeps going. And it's also more sustainable from a financial perspective if there are costs involved. um So one thing, do it really well and then keep going. And think, too, is having conversations. I know it's hard and maybe people don't feel like they know everything. But i think just sharing from what you do know is very powerful and shouldn't stop somebody from stepping up to be like, this is my understanding of the issue. I'm sure there's more to know. um
Speaker: And this is important for you to know. And this how it applies to your job and kind of helping translate those things into the organization itself. you know, without having it to be a big to do.
Speaker: But it sometimes does require those repeat um conversations or, you know, with several people over time. So just encouraging you to have those conversations so that, you know, this is an active thing in the organization. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Kai. I hope that will be helpful to people trying to navigate this at work.
Speaker: hello Absolutely. Thanks for asking all the questions and yeah exploring the topic with me. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.
