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Ep 28: From Law Partner to Top Recruiter: Richard Hsu, Managing Director at Major, Lindsey & Africa
85 Plays10 months ago
How do executive recruiters take legal careers to the next level? What do you need to handle the transition from big-name law firm partner to a role helping people build careers of their own? How can you distinguish a good interview from a bad interview? Richard Hsu, Managing Director at Major, Lindsey & Africa and host of the Hsu Untied podcast, has expert advice to share about how to ace the job interview for executive legal roles and the podcast interview with influential thinkers like Mark Cuban and Tony Robbins. Going deep on legal and podcasting, Richard shares essential tips on how to project confidence and say the right things when you’re face to face with a hiring manager (or celebrity) who can take your career to the next level.
Listen to an episode of Richard’s Hsu Untied podcast: https://hsuuntied.com/mcuban/
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-28
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Finding your path to becoming a law firm partner: 4:07
Dealing with the stress of a big law partnership: 6:46
Making the transition from law firm partner to executive recruiter: 8:45
Unpacking the responsibilities of an executive recruiter: 12:25
Tactical tips for legal career searchers: 16:13
Interviewing legal leaders like Mark Cuban on the Hsu Untied podcast: 18:32
Helping your professional development by making a podcast: 24:14
Advice to lawyers who want to start a podcast: 26:56
Book recommendations: 29:57
What you wish you’d known as a starting lawyer: 32:29
Outro:33:54
Connect with us:
Richard Hsu - https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardhsu/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
A Humorous Incident with Mark Cuban
00:00:00
Speaker
And my secretary answered the phone when he announced who he was. She had no idea it was the Mark Cuban. So she called, she patching me through and says, oh, I just want to let you know there's somebody named Mark Cuban on the phone for you. So it was just hilarious.
Spotdraft Introduction
00:00:26
Speaker
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00:00:47
Speaker
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Richard Chu's Career Overview
00:01:15
Speaker
What do you need to know about working with executive recruiters? And what advice might one of them have about how he found a fulfilling life after big law, including through his own much longer-running podcast? Today, we have Richard Chu joining us, a managing director at Major Lindsay in Africa, a legal-focused executive recruitment agency.
00:01:37
Speaker
He's also been the host of his own podcast shoe on tide. It's a good pun for nearly 10 years and was previously a partner and the global head of IP transactions at Sherman and Sterling Richard. Thanks so much for joining me today on the abstract. Well, thank you, Tyler. It's very nice to be invited. As you know, I usually in your seat asking the questions and not in this seat. So I hopefully I can be okay in answering your questions.
00:02:07
Speaker
You're going to do great. I think, you know, I've done an episode or two of other folks podcasts and having done that recording, it gives me some empathy for, for this seat that my guests are in. Uh, I think asking the questions is a little easier, but talking about yourself and your experiences is fun too.
Favorite Places in San Francisco
00:02:26
Speaker
So before we get to chatting about careers in legal and whether starting a podcast might be a good idea for some of our listeners, I know you moved from the South Bay up to San Francisco a couple of years ago. You're living in the city. I grew up down on the peninsula as well. I think SF is due for a rebound. So I wanted to start by just asking you, is there a place in San Francisco, coffee shop, restaurant, that's really special to you?
00:02:54
Speaker
Yeah well there's a lot I mean and I do agree with your comment the city I think is poised for a rebound and I think it's already kind of rebounding but one spot that I recently found that I really have fallen in love with is an area in in the northeast northwest corner of the city called the Presidio Tunnel Tops it's near the Presidio Park it's a newly developed urban parkway
00:03:17
Speaker
And it's just this gorgeous grassy area, a completely hidden gem. And while you're standing in the Presidio Tunnel Tops, you literally have on one side a gorgeous view of the Golden Gate Bridge, and then you turn around to the other side and you see the entire skyline, including Salesforce Tower and the Palace of Fine Arts. And right in the center, in between these two things, you have this great view of Alcatraz. So it's just this glorious thing. And, you know, on a clear day, which is kind of where you're in a city,
00:03:47
Speaker
It's a wonderful place to just hang out and have lunch and we go out there as much as we can.
00:03:53
Speaker
That is great. I have not been there. And the next time I'm in San Francisco in late February, I will definitely go out and go for a jog or a walk. That sounds awesome. Yeah. Check it out. Thanks for that, Richard.
Career Transition from Engineering to Law
00:04:07
Speaker
So before becoming an executive recruiter, you had a long career as a law firm partner, big law firm. I want to start back sort of at the beginning. What inspired you to get into the law in the first place and was a partnership at a firm like that where you thought that you'd end up?
00:04:22
Speaker
So I think the answer to both those questions is no. I was an engineer out of college. And in fact, if you had told me I'd be a lawyer, I probably would have shot you. That's how far from law I was thinking. I had never considered it as a career. None of my family members are lawyers. I mean, really, it was never even on my radar. And after I graduated from college, I actually went to work as an engineer for a couple of years in Silicon Valley, Oracle.
00:04:49
Speaker
And I was thinking about what else I wanted to do because I wasn't someone who loved programming all day long. And so I did want to do something else. And I was thinking about maybe business school or other things. And somebody I knew came up to me and said something like, well, you're an engineer. You should go become an intellectual property lawyer. And to show you how little I knew at that time, I barely even knew what a patent was. I mean, literally.
00:05:12
Speaker
No, I was just like, really? And the only reason that I even considered going to law school, because I did a little bit of research after this, is that, as you know, law school is one of the few professional schools in which has no undergraduate requirements at all. So unlike, say, medical school or something like that, the last thing I was going to do is go back to college and take a bunch of classes to go to law school.
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, there are no requirements whatsoever. And all you have to take is the LSAT. That's all you have to do is just take that test. I thought, well, what the hell? I mean, that that's not a big deal. So I took the LSAT and I got a chance to go to I got into Columbia Law School and it was a chance to live in New York City. So I thought, you know, hey, why not live in New York City? But even after going to law school, I actually thought my chances of actually practicing were probably 50 50 because I figured
00:06:03
Speaker
You know, the law degree might be useful for something else. I could always go back and be an engineer. So I never felt the real pressure in law school to absolutely had to get a job. I mean, you know, I enjoyed law school fine. I thought it was interesting, but I just didn't have that pressure because I figured I could always go back and be an engineer if I didn't like law school. Turns out, you know, I obviously ended up practicing a lawyer and, you know, 25 years later, here I am. But yeah, so it was really not something that was in any way a childhood dream of any kind.
00:06:32
Speaker
That's interesting. I feel like on this podcast, it's probably more common that people stumble into the career, but you do have folks who knew, you know, I wanted to be a prosecutor or I wanted to, you know, do appellate work from a very young age. The partnership, of course, comes along with a good comp, but some heavy stress, I think you might agree. Those are high stakes gigs.
00:06:55
Speaker
How did you know that it was time to move away from Big Law, move on to something different?
The Pressures of Big Law
00:07:01
Speaker
And I'm also curious if you've gotten any advice for folks who might be feeling a little bit burned out right now themselves. Yeah. Well, there's no question being a partner at Big Law firm is definitely stressful. I think the stress seems like it increases year after year after year.
00:07:16
Speaker
I don't know that I have any advice on when is the right time to step out. This recruiting opportunity presented itself. But I will say, just as anecdotally, we often joke around the fact that big law firm partners are pressured every day by GCs and clients,
00:07:35
Speaker
on bills and billing rates and yet they're expected to miss their daughter's wedding when they're needed. It is just a really, really high stress job. And even though I'm not in it right now, I'm talking to big law firm partners every single day. So I hear about it and honestly, I'm pretty grateful I'm not doing it.
00:07:54
Speaker
What I would say, though, is that the ones I think that survive best in it really are the ones that really love being a big law firm partner. I mean, that's really the best thing to put in because if you don't really love it, then the stress is going to really wear at you and really eat at you. If you really love it, and some people really do, it's obviously not going to be as bad.
00:08:15
Speaker
My advice, you know, now to lawyers who, you know, there are so many other, there are so many alternatives to big law. I mean, I mean, obviously there's always been in house law lawyers. That's obviously been always an optional alternative, but you know, there's now a lot of smaller law firms. There are firms, there are these virtual firms. There's a lot of ways to practice law that doesn't have the pressures of being a big law firm partner. So fortunately, there are a lot of options out there. For many people, that's just a much better answer to what they want to have in life.
00:08:44
Speaker
When you were thinking of leaving Big Law behind and maybe not behind because you still talk to partners all the time, but thinking of making that transition to being an exec recruiter, you're a really successful partner, you're almost leaving a little aspect of your identity behind. I got to ask you, was that a scary transition for you or were you so ready for it? Yeah, what was that like?
Executive Recruiting Journey
00:09:07
Speaker
Well, I think there are two stages I question, I think, and this will be kind of a funny answer because it did take a little while for me to give up, you know, the title and everything like that and the idea of becoming a recruiter. But funnily enough, I actually, when I first started, I didn't think it was going to be scary. I thought, oh, wow, you know, this
00:09:26
Speaker
this is
00:09:43
Speaker
What you realize when you start this job is that you think you know all these law firms because you've heard of them or no lawyers there, but that's nothing compared to the depth and knowledge you've got to acquire in order to become a recruiter. You've got to understand the whole firm and the management and the strategy and what they're doing.
00:10:02
Speaker
Completely different knowing five lawyers at that firm doesn't give you any Visibility into what the firm is about or what it's doing and certainly to talk about it with another candidate So really that was a much deeper learning curve than I really ever dreamed. I just thought oh, I already know these firms
00:10:18
Speaker
And similarly, I would say knowing the local culture is very important as well. And that's also something that you don't know as a law firm because they're your competitors. You're not going to know the personalities and who's in that law firm. But when you're a recruiter, that's something you've got to explain to somebody. And that takes time. That takes
00:10:39
Speaker
a lot of meetings that takes understanding what the firm office is doing locally. Anyway, it was scary, but it happened after I took the job and started getting into it. That's interesting. As you were ramping up on that, is that a lot of relationships that you really need to build across the different front? Is it really just conversations? How did you go about that?
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And that's another area that I think I also underestimated is that, you know, when you're working as a lawyer, you kind of think, wow, I know a lot of lawyers, I kind of know everybody, you know, I've been, I grew up in Silicon Valley, I worked my entire practice in the Valley. But what you realize is that your network is much smaller than you realize, because you don't really know who's outside your network, you know, your network, you think it's big, tons of lawyers. And even today, I've been doing this business for five or six years. Every day I get calls from a
00:11:31
Speaker
firm, whatever, saying, have you heard of this person? And no, I haven't, you know, and they're right here in my backyard. So, you know, it seems like, you know, I mean, I know that it's a finite number of, you know, law firm lawyers in the Bay Area, but even in the Bay Area, which is the area that I focus on, you know, there's there's a ton of people I don't know. And yes, I'm constantly, you know, networking and trying to get to know more lawyers.
00:11:53
Speaker
That's really interesting. And maybe a good reminder for all of us that the world is much bigger than we might think on a day-to-day basis. Totally. Totally. Yeah, for sure.
00:12:04
Speaker
I've interviewed one other exec recruiter on an earlier season of the podcast, and I think that your role, that of executive recruiter, is one that executives don't fully understand often or don't quite know how to work with. I've got a few questions here for you. Maybe to start with, in your own words, what does an executive recruiter do and who do you serve?
Role of Executive Recruiters
00:12:31
Speaker
Well, in that way, in that sense, there was actually kind of two worlds in the executive recruiter world and I'll limit it to lawyers since that's the area that I was.
00:12:40
Speaker
But the two ways that recruiters work, one is the retained search model, where basically you are retained by the client or the company to go out and find somebody. And so they're the recruiters very much working for the company, for the client. And so they're out, you know, trying to find a person for that role. The other way that executive recruiters work or legal search recruiters work is what we call the sports agents, the sports talent or the sports
00:13:08
Speaker
of sports agency or talent agency model. And that's where you're really representing the candidate. You're focused on the candidate and you're trying to find the best opportunity for them, much like a baseball agent would try to find the best team for a player. But the sports agency, the sports agency model is the model that I happen to work in. In the law firm model, that's pretty common. So I go out and try to represent a candidate and try to find the best opportunity for him or her. If you were to put yourself
00:13:38
Speaker
in the shoes of a candidate who's looking for an opportunity. And maybe you can talk about both the sports agent model versus the retained search model and how their relationship with you might look a little different. What's advice you would have for them as they think about their relationship with someone like you and also other exec recruiters out there? What should they be doing to position themselves best with recruiters?
00:14:03
Speaker
Well, I would say, I mean, in the routine search model, you know, there's probably not a lot because if you are interested in the job, you kind of have to work with that recruiter because that recruiter is representing the job opening. So, you know, there it's pretty much said. But if you're going to, if you're more in the sports agency talent model and you're trying to select a recruiter to work with you, there are a couple of things that I think are really important. You know, one of them, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, is one of them is,
00:14:30
Speaker
You know, who really knows the market and the law firms best. I mean, that's so important because the recruiters can be the one that's making recommendations. The recruiters can be one that's representing you, trying to pitch you the best.
00:14:42
Speaker
You know, if that person doesn't really know all the firms really in depth, they can't really provide an honest, biased, unbiased, you know, answer for you. So that's really important. But even beyond that, I would say in the legal recruiting world, it's very much like real estate in the sense that somebody who knows the local market is very important because you've ever done real estate, you've ever sold or bought a house. You want the agent who knows that neighborhood really well, the nooks and the crannies.
00:15:11
Speaker
you know, where the noisy spots are, where the schools are, what, you know, what are the local restaurants that people go to? I mean, it's so important once you know the area that a real estate agent knows that area. And in the same way, a legal recruiter, it's so important for them to know the local market because any recruiter or many recruiters can talk about the national firms or what their reputation is, the brand. I mean, law firms, lawyers know kind of
00:15:33
Speaker
what that firm is about. But who are the local personalities? Who's running the office there? What kind of practices are they really focused on? How are you going to fit in with the partners that are down the hall from you and the associates that they've hired? That's really, really important. And only somebody who has been in the local market and knows the personalities can really help you with that.
00:15:55
Speaker
That's really interesting. As we think about maybe transitioning to some advice for career searchers, whether or not they have an executive recruiter helping them, your role is part coach too. You see a lot of people going through interview processes.
00:16:12
Speaker
any truly tactical tips that you might have, especially in this era where norms and processes are shifting quite a bit because so much is happening in a remote way for how to succeed at interviewing today.
Job Interview Tips
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I've got a long list, Tyler. I won't give you enough time for my entire list. But let me just tell you a couple that I think are super crucial and also in light of the Zoom thing. My first tip, and I give this to almost every candidate interview, is when you're answering a question, the first 90 seconds are so crucial. It's not about the five minute or 15 minute or longer answer. It's the first 90 seconds. And that's your opportunity to set the tone
00:16:55
Speaker
go ahead and that allows you to set the tone, use a strong voice. That's a chance for you to really look the person in the eye. And in the age of Zoom, that's even more important because you can't communicate that. You almost have to exaggerate a little bit your energy and enthusiasm. And so that is just super important.
00:17:15
Speaker
And that's what we really recommend. The other one that I say is the most important, like I said, I've got a long list, but what I always tell candidates is look out for body language that you're getting. And if you say something that seems like it really resonates, write that down and use it again, you know, because the reason that resonated is probably going to be true, not just for that person in your room, but for the other people in that company. So make a note of it, pay attention, write it down, use it again.
00:17:46
Speaker
If folks want to see the whole list, should they reach out to you? I don't want to slug your inbox. Yes, I have a whole job interviewing tips that I give mainly to law students, but if anyone is interested, definitely reach out to me and I'm happy to share with them. That's fantastic.
00:18:05
Speaker
Quick announcement before I let you get back to the episode. Spotdraft just released our annual compensation report for in-house legal professionals. If you're wondering how your compensation compares to your peers across industries, years of experience, and more, make sure to check it out. Find it at salary-report.spotdraft.com or head to the link in the description. Now, let's get back to the episode.
Launching 'Shoo Untied' Podcast
00:18:32
Speaker
I think many of our guests may know that you're the host of your own podcast. That was actually how we got connected as I listened to a number of episodes and you were kind enough to join the abstract. It's called Shoo Untied, as I said, and you've interviewed a whole host of
00:18:49
Speaker
legal leaders. You've also brought on a couple of famous folks. I think people might have heard of like Tony Robbins and Mark Cuban and something for me to aspire to as I grow the abstract over time. Tell us how the podcast got started. What kicked it off? Yeah. Well,
00:19:09
Speaker
Funnily, the podcast was just, that was sort of like my childhood dream. I had always grown up listening to Terry Gross and Charlie Rose, and I just loved the idea of what they did. And I thought, if I could ever have a job where I just got to spend every day interviewing interesting people, that would be like my dream job. And of course, I never was able to have that dream job, but
00:19:30
Speaker
When the technology allowed, you know, the whole podcast thing came about, I thought, wow, this is a great opportunity to basically fulfill my childhood dream and ask people questions. So when I started that podcast, I literally just interviewed my friends. I mean, I would get my college friends, my law school friends, and I would interview them about their hobbies or whatever. And I, you know, it was, that's all it was. And when I started that podcast, I thought, you know, if I can, if I could find 10 people to interview, I would be thrilled. And that was literally my goal.
00:20:00
Speaker
And I think now I'm probably close to 300 now, something like that. So it is just, it has exceeded my expectations. But the funny thing is, is that if you look at the list of my guests and a lot of people ask me this question, as you noted, I've interviewed, you know, Tony Robbins and Mark Cuban and, you know, many sort of celebrities.
00:20:20
Speaker
People always ask me, did you know them? Did you have a contact that made the introductions? And almost every guest on my podcast, I did not know. I just cold emailed them. And Mark Cuban was a good example. I heard something that he talked about. I emailed them and asked if he could be on a podcast. And he amazingly responded directly to me.
00:20:41
Speaker
he emailed me back and he said, you know, I'm happy to talk to you. And not only that, when he when we did the podcast, he was actually on vacation at the time, which is, but he did the interview. And the one of the funny things that happened was is that this was done, you know, this is back in the old days when we were just interviewed by the telephone.
00:21:01
Speaker
And he was telling me from a cell phone, and his cell phone dropped. And he called me back because he got cut off. And my secretary answered the phone when he announced who he was. She had no idea it was the Mark Cuban. So she called me. She patching me through and says, oh, I just want to let you know there's somebody named Mark Cuban on the phone for you. So it was just hilarious. It was hilarious. Lucky that she didn't hang up and say that's an impersonator.
00:21:29
Speaker
So it's been, it's been a funny thing. Another one, Tony Robbins, which you mentioned, you know, I'd been emailing Tony Robbins for probably the better part of a year and a half. And, you know, every time his assistant kept saying, you know, he's way too busy, he's way too busy. And I would just keep saying, look, if he ever has time, I'd love to have him. I understand. And one day, one morning I woke up like 7.30 in the morning and I got this email saying, Tony Robbins can talk to you in 45 minutes if you're available.
00:21:55
Speaker
You know, it's a podcast. I don't have to get dressed. I can do it in my living room. And I'm like, yeah, sure. That'll be great. So I
Securing High-Profile Guests
00:22:01
Speaker
got him. Apparently he had some random opening that just opened up in 45 minutes. And it was one of those lucky things where I just happened to be in town. I saw the email. I was on right away and got a chance to chat with him.
00:22:14
Speaker
Passion projects really can kind of blossom into something pretty cool. I mean, another lesson there is like, you know, persistence pays off or don't be afraid of the cold email. Especially if you're not really asking for too much from someone, just a little bit of their time and their wisdom. That's great. And maybe one day I can get Mark Cuban to come on here or I think his brother was a lawyer once upon a time, maybe his brother. Yeah, for sure.
00:22:42
Speaker
Okay, I know it's hard to pick favorites. I wouldn't pick favorite episodes, but if you had to pick one or two that you think folks should go and listen to or that were particularly fun to create, what are a couple of your best? Yeah. Well, two that I really liked that just warmed my heart. And again, I'm not saying these are the two best, but two that I really love. One was Carol Spinney who played Big Bird and
00:23:07
Speaker
You know, it was thrilled to get him. He's actually passed away since I've done the interview, but it was just a thrill to get him. I did not even know this at the time, but he actually played Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch on Sesame Street. And he did, when I did the interview, he did both voices. He sang for me. I mean, it was just, it was just really thrilling and exciting. So, you know, Big Bird was one that I just really enjoyed doing.
00:23:29
Speaker
The other interview that was just super fun, kind of along the same line, but just super fun was Burt Ward, who played Robin in the 1960s television Batman series. And again, cold email, never known him or anything like that. But he was just an amazingly sharp guy.
00:23:46
Speaker
who just remembered every detail about the Batman TV series like it was yesterday. He was just brilliant. It was just amazing to talk to him. And just to talk to somebody that you had obviously watched on TV as a kid is always super fun.
00:24:01
Speaker
That's really cool. Those are almost bucket list experiences that you were able to create through your desire just to, you know, have some conversations and be a quasi journalist. That's fantastic. I know it wasn't the intention at first, but I've got to ask if you feel like the podcast has helped you in your work as well, helped build a sort of personal brand for you.
00:24:25
Speaker
You know, yes, it has helped me, but in a way that actually is probably not in the way you think. You know, when I started this recruiting job, I got a lot of advice saying not to take this job. And one of the reasons that people advise me not to take the job is they said, do you realize how much rejection you're going to get? Do you realize how many people are going to hang up on the phone on you? Do you realize how many candidates you're going to pitch and law firms are going to say no? It'll be no, no, no, and no.
00:24:51
Speaker
And the funny thing is, is that when I heard this, I was like, you know what? I'm actually totally used to this because in building that podcast, that's basically what I get all the time is nose. I mean, that's the reality. I mean, you know, you see the people that I do get, you know this, but you get a lot more nose or no responses. I mean, I get that all the time. So I was totally used to that. And I felt like in a completely
00:25:12
Speaker
random way, which was not the intention, the podcast, that aspect of the podcast training really prepared me well for the recruiting. Now, rejections don't bother me because that's basically how, if rejection was going to stop me from building up, stop me from doing the podcast, I would have never even got that thing off the ground. I mean, that's how it was done. And so I was kind of used to that. And I was also kind of accepted to the fact that getting rejections is part of the process.
00:25:41
Speaker
for building something. And I had done that through the podcast. So recruiting, I was already used to that. That really resonates. And it's a muscle that I think people who have more traditional sort of sales roles, build very early on. And then, I mean, I'm sure you actually probably coach this with some of the law firm partners and others who you work with, which is, okay, if you're going to take it to the next level, your practice, you got to become a lot more comfortable with that type of rejection, even from me, not even
00:26:11
Speaker
A lot of people say, yes, I'm very lucky. Uh, you know, but, but I even have friends who say it's just not the right time or I don't want to tell those stories right now or, and those are totally valid, good reasons. Like at least they got back to me. Right. But, but you got to become comfortable with the idea that, okay, maybe only 40%, 50% are going to be yeses. And the others, it's not quite going to work out for whatever reason. Totally, totally. Yeah.
00:26:39
Speaker
I've had a couple of people who are interested in starting podcasts, one at least who's actually gone and done
Advice for Aspiring Podcasters
00:26:45
Speaker
it. Reach out to me for advice. I feel like I'm like 20 episodes in or so. I feel like I'm really still learning. So maybe both for my benefit and also for those who are out there who might be interested in starting a podcast or something like this, a newsletter, even a stub stack, any advice you've got?
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I have a couple of thoughts on that. I would say, I think to make something like a podcast sustainable is that you really got to focus on the interview and how much you enjoy doing the interview. Because as opposed to being concerned about the metrics and stuff like that, because if you're focused on that or overly focused on that, it will just drive you crazy. And I don't think it'll be a very fun thing.
00:27:31
Speaker
I frequently tell my guests, because I get this question a lot, I frequently tell my guests that if the only two people that listen to this podcast are you and your mother, it's totally fine with me. So I really, that's how I've been able to sustain my podcast. And I realize not everybody can do this because, you know, people, the metrics are important and, you know, if you need to sell advertising, I get all that. But I do think that you've really got to enjoy the process and the interview. That's the only way to make it sustainable.
00:28:00
Speaker
The second piece of advice I'll give you, and I think you can relate to this as well, is that in order to figure out what's a good interview or what's a bad interview, you've got to do a lot of them. There's an old saying about how can you tell the difference between good wine and bad wine, and the answer is drink a lot of bad wine.
00:28:19
Speaker
Really interviewing and the podcast is the same thing is that you really can't tell in interview is which ones are good or which is bad until you've just done a lot of them because you're gonna have ones and you're gonna have not so good ones and once you've kind of done a lot of them then you can start to realize oh wow that was a really good interview and and that's how you start to really know when you're hitting your stride or what you know what it feels like to have a really good interview.
00:28:43
Speaker
I think the other other interesting thing there, I'm just going to build on that, which is that it's actually surprising to me sometimes which ones perform really, really, really well. And it's not always the ones that I would expect. It may not be the ones with the most controversial story or I mean, I don't have so many episodes that I'm going to tell you which ones are really good.
00:29:04
Speaker
right? Because I really appreciate all the guests who have come on and spent time preparing and are putting themselves out there and telling their stories. I mean, I was interested in all their stories. But it's actually interesting to me to see which ones perform well. Sometimes it might just be it's that time of year and people have a little extra time or
00:29:24
Speaker
For some reason, the LinkedIn algorithm liked it more. But I think sometimes there are topics around personal branding or how you position yourself with other execs in the team. Some of those things I've found are really resonating. And that's been a learning experience for me, too. Interesting. Yeah, those are good. Where can folks find your episodes if they want to give it a listen?
Book Recommendation: 'Magic Words'
00:29:50
Speaker
If they do, it's on my website, shoeuntied.com.
00:29:54
Speaker
Fantastic. I've got just a couple more questions for you, Richard. I'm a big reader. I travel all the time for work. I'm always looking for books to read when I'm in the air. What's a good book that you've read recently? And you were, I think, just on a vacation, so I hope you were able to read a book. You were able to relax a little and maybe open a book.
00:30:19
Speaker
Well, most of the non-fiction books that I've read actually are from my podcast. So to plug my own podcast, you're welcome to go and listen to some of my, yes. But one that I recently read and had a really fascinating interview with is Jonah Berger, who's written a book called Magic Words.
00:30:37
Speaker
And the thesis of what he says is that there's a very powerful difference between using the noun form of a verb versus the adjective. And so let me give you for just an example. If I tell you there are two individuals and I tell you that one is a runner and the other person does running, which one are you going to
00:30:59
Speaker
gravitate towards one, which one are you going to associate really good qualities? And that's probably the runner because you're going to think that person is motivated, that person is disciplined, that person is well trained. You know, you're going to associate this entire suite of characteristics around somebody who's a runner than somebody who says they just run.
00:31:18
Speaker
And so the whole book is building around, I mean, between run and runner is three letters. So it can really characterize someone in a much more positive way. And if you're conscious of that, you can use that to create a certain sense of, you know, you can create your persona, you can communicate more effectively by just doing that.
00:31:40
Speaker
And the negative is also true, too. Like, for example, there's a big difference between someone who has cheated and someone who's a cheater, right? Someone who's habitually a cheater. You associate all kinds of negative things. Somebody who has cheated once or whatever, it's a different kind of thing. So, I won't belive with the point. You should go and read the book. He talked about it in my podcast. I was really moved by his interview, read the book. It's really great. I think that's one that could really help you in what you do, because you're talking to people all the time, and you'll have a certain image of you, Jonah,
00:32:10
Speaker
In the world, it might be something interesting for you. Fantastic. We will also definitely link to that in the show notes so that way other folks can find the episode and find the book as well.
Understanding Law as a Client Service
00:32:25
Speaker
As we start to wrap up, I like to ask this question to most of our guests. Sometimes there's a little bit of a change, but if you could look back on the days of being a young lawyer when you were just getting started, what's something that you know now that you wish you'd known back then?
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah. I think the one thing that I wish I had known that someone had explained to me is that being a lawyer is a client service business.
00:32:50
Speaker
And that the most important thing about being a lawyer in order to be successful and happy is that you've got to get real enjoyment from serving other people. Because that's kind of the fundamental core of being a lawyer. And if that's not something that you really enjoy or are willing to make that the centerpiece of how you're going to be successful and happy, you're probably not going to be really happy or successful as a lawyer. And, you know, that's something that I kind of learned to appreciate over the years. And if somebody kind of explained that to me at the very beginning, I think it would have been really helpful.
00:33:21
Speaker
This has been a lot of fun for me, Richard, and it's been great to get to know you after I've been able to see you sort of on my computer screen before on your own podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time to come and share some of some of your wisdom with our audience. Well, Tyler, it's been a real pleasure. As I said, I usually don't get interviewed. I'm usually the interviewer, but it was really nice talking to you.
00:33:45
Speaker
Thanks so much. And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for listening to this episode of The Abstract, and we hope to see you next time.
00:33:57
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in today. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd recommend that you give my interview in season two with Mark Khan, GC at the Oakland Ballers a listen. We talk about how he transitioned from being a GC to being an executive recruiter and what his fellow GC should know about working with exec recruiters. You can also subscribe so you get notified as soon as we post a new episode. And if you liked this one, I'd really love to hear your thoughts. So leave a rating or a comment.
00:34:25
Speaker
If you'd like to reach out to us, our LinkedIn profiles are in the description. See you all next week.