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E240: Emanuela Orlandi
2.9k Plays3 months ago
She is Vatican City’s only missing person case. Fifteen-year-old Emanuela Orlandi was a typical teenage girl, until she went missing on June 22nd, 1983, and her disappearance was tied to theories of secrets within the Vatican, to international espionage, and to the Italian mafia. But why Emanuela? Who knew the truth behind her disappearance? And what secret was someone willing to go to every extreme to keep?
I urge you to view the docuseries Vatican Girl, which provides much needed insights from Emanuela's family and others involved in the case.
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Transcript
Perception vs. Reality of Safe Spaces
00:00:00
Speaker
There are certain places in this world that we like to believe are sacred, that they are the most safe places for our bodies and for our heart. Asked what those places are, we're likely to answer, many of us, the same. Places like the home, schools, and churches. However, with stories of abuse by parents and other family members, with stories of abuse and violence in schools, and with stories of abuse within various churches, we know that none of those places are truly safe.
00:00:30
Speaker
not for everyone.
The Enigma of Vatican City's Missing Person Case
00:00:32
Speaker
And our case this week takes us into one of those places, a sacred and holy place, Vatican city, to explore its only missing persons case. Where do the theories lead? Are there secrets that still remain? And will this deserving family ever find peace? This is a case of a Manuela or Lambie.
Engaging Listeners to Keep Cases Alive
00:01:31
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:02:08
Speaker
The only missing cousin. The only. And Maggie, I have got to warn you ahead of time that this case, which obviously is an international one since it said in Vatican City, has so many twists and turns that even doing the research, I found myself all turned around at times.
Emanuela Orlandi: A Family's Quest for Justice
00:02:28
Speaker
But because this family has never given up hope,
00:02:32
Speaker
I want to support them in the best way that I know how and that is by telling her story in hopes that people continue to pressure for answers. So I'll do my best to tell the case in the most streamlined way ok I can.
00:02:47
Speaker
I read many media accounts in my preparation, but I will tell you that a lot of the information I gained about this case actually came from the family and journalist interviews that were all contained in the Netflix docu-series called Vatican Girl. Oh, now I need to watch that after. You definitely do, yes. And I will urge all of our listeners to follow up by watching that documentary.
00:03:11
Speaker
And as we get going, i'll I'll use an example to show you why some of my information came from the docu-series versus some of the articles. But first, let's talk a little bit about Vatican City.
Understanding Vatican City's Unique Status
00:03:24
Speaker
I know that you and probably many of our listeners will likely know the common knowledge about Vatican City. It's home to the Pope. It is a country, a state, and a city all wrapped up in one. And it's situated in the center of Rome right in Italy.
00:03:39
Speaker
It is its own jurisdiction under its own law. I wonder how that happened. There is a history, but I'm not going to go. I feel like it would be very deep. Yes. It would be its own episode. Yes. But Vatican City is very tiny. It is only 121 acres in size, and that includes St. Peter's Basilica and St. Peter's Square.
00:04:01
Speaker
and a 57 acre garden that is called Vatican Gardens that was established during the Renaissance period. So what's the population of Vatican City? So that's one of the things I actually didn't know either. am It's around 700 And that includes those high up in the Catholic Church, namely Cardinals and other diplomats. But also of that 700 is around 100 lay people who work for the Pope or the Pope's household or those other individuals in the church. I'm so interested in this. Yes. Few of those people you can probably surmise are women. Right. Because the only ones would be families of those lay people.
00:04:47
Speaker
But these lay people who live there and work for the pope's household or other um individuals in the church, they actually live in Vatican City rent free in apartments inside the walls, because that's the other thing. There are walls surrounding Vatican City.
00:05:04
Speaker
and Vatican City is open to the public during the day, but at midnight each night, at least they did through 2013, they would lock the gates. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I don't know. what I couldn't find information on whether the gates are still locked, but I did find an article as recent as 2013 that said that they locked the gates at night. So I want you to keep all of this in mind when I tell you about this case, and I'll start with the day everything happened. Well, I can see why she's been the only Yeah, it seems pretty sick, right? Few people. It's mostly church officials and the gates get locked. But everything happened on June 22nd, 1983.
The Mysterious Disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi
00:05:45
Speaker
Okay. In the docuseries Vatican Girl, Emmanuela's brother, Pietro, remembers
00:05:51
Speaker
June 22nd as this sweltering day. His mother, Maria, was making pizza. I know. I thought the same thing. My mouth started watering. Their family of seven, which was Father Ercolay, Mother Maria,
00:06:07
Speaker
and siblings, which were brother Pietro and sisters Natalina, Frederica and Maria Cristina, were some of the lay people who lived in Vatican City since their family served in some capacity. One source said that their father was a Vatican usher. Others just said that he was a lay person in Vatican City for the Pope's household and that he had or his family had been a part of that service for decades.
00:06:37
Speaker
So if you're like one of these laymen, is this like something your grandfather did and then your dad did it and now you do it type thing? I don't know the answer to that. I do know that by the time the Orlandi father died in 2002, that it it said his family had served. So I don't know if that means him and his family, or like you're asking, was it kind of passed down, but had served under seven hopes. Wow. I can only imagine what this must have been like for the Orlandi children to grow up in this, basically what amounts to us
00:07:20
Speaker
an extremely small town where everybody knows everybody. And I mean, you're surrounded by church officials, so better not be caught doing anything bad. But at least they had some activities, including school that were in Rome, um right outside the walls. Because again, Vatican City is in the center of Rome. So you just walk out the gates and go to school or whatever.
00:07:42
Speaker
Emanuela was a young girl of 15 who loved music and she was actually very musically inclined. Maggie, she played the piano and the flute and she sang in the choir. yeah um her In fact, on the 22nd, she actually needed to go back to school because they were to be practicing for their end of year musical show.
00:08:05
Speaker
Before leaving her home, she asked her brother, Pietro, to drive her to practice, but he told her that he couldn't. And in hindsight, that was a decision that, to this day, he regrets. Yeah, I'll always feel so bad for her.
00:08:21
Speaker
siblings in these, or not necessarily siblings, but people in cases like this where you say, no, I can't do that because I feel like they carry so much guilt. when it Really, it's not their fault. And I wonder if that's part of the reason why he is one of the most vocal members of the family in this search for justice.
Strange Encounter: The Avon Job Offer
00:08:40
Speaker
We believe that Emanuela went to her flute lesson that day because she left with her flute case ok and her small bag. And she did actually call home just before leaving school to make the walk home after this flute lesson.
00:08:58
Speaker
She spoke with her sister, Fredrika, and told her that a man had come up to her outside of the school with a job opportunity to hand out leaflets and advertise for Avon, which Avon used to be.
00:09:13
Speaker
huge yeah like in my childhood I'll remember it anyway. My mom sold it at one point. I love looking through the books. Yeah. Emmanuela's plan was to I'm assuming stay in Rome just a bit because she did make further plans to meet up with several friends and her sister Maria Christina 7 p.m. Okay. So that phone call home had been sometime between 5 and 6. But she has to get home before they lock the gates? Yes, they guys at midnight. Yes. At 7 p.m., Emanuela's friends and her sister were at the meeting spot, but Emanuela never showed up. So do we know if she took that job from the man? We have some
00:09:53
Speaker
suspicions, witnesses that make us believe perhaps so. Okay. Her sister and friends waited about half an hour for Emanuela to show up, but when she didn't, they headed home thinking maybe she went home instead. Maybe she got caught up or forgot or whatever.
00:10:12
Speaker
When Maria Christina got home, she asked her parents if Emanuela had come home and they said no. Why? And this is when they find that Emanuela hadn't met her sister if she had arranged, nor had she come. So we have no idea where iss she is. Exactly.
00:10:28
Speaker
the family had luckily for us a family curfew of 9 30 so obviously long before the kids are going to be locked but that meant that not a huge amount of time had passed before they really grew concerned when she didn't show up at 9 30 right because she was supposed to meet them at seven okay So that's when they know something is wrong. They're thinking maybe she got hurt. So they call clinics, they call hospitals. Nobody was admitted under her name. They went to her school and made the walk along the route that she would have taken home. and No signs of her. So her father went to file a report with the Roman police because remember- Her school is in Rome, right? Exactly. Yes. And that's where she's supposed to meet her friends. They told him it was too soon, go home and wait.
00:11:17
Speaker
But remember, the gates of Vatican City close at midnight. So that would mean if she were not able to get inside Vatican City before midnight, she would effectively be locked outside of the walls all night long with nowhere to go. Okay, so that is the question ah then.
00:11:37
Speaker
Is there like a guard and you can be like, hey, I got stuck in traffic. Can you let me in? Are they just like, you're out of luck. See you in the morning. I don't know. I do not know the answer to that. I do know that fearful that what if she does show up after midnight, their father called some other family members. They called the family's uncle to come because he knew Rome well. And so they said, Emmanuela hasn't shown up. She's missing. Can you drive the streets of Rome?
00:12:07
Speaker
Looking for her site he he was actually out of town He drove back got some photos of a manual a drove around realm showing her photo No one recognizes her no And I'm going to stop here to tell you why, Mike, why, as to why I relied on the docuseries for a lot of information, especially as it pertains to details of the day or things that happened to the family or how the family reacted, because the extent of the information in most of the news articles was Emmanuela went into Rome for a flute lesson. She was supposed to meet up with her sister and didn't show up.
00:12:44
Speaker
The end. Yeah. So you can kind of see, you can see how much more detailed again by interviewing multiple members of the families. The docuseries fills in a lot of those details.
00:12:54
Speaker
But the docuseries also leaves a lot of gaps, too. In my opinion, at one point, for example, they conduct an interview where they find out from a retired police detective that the report of Emanuela being missing was unfortunately coming at a time when dozens of teenagers had disappeared in Rome only to show back up.
00:13:16
Speaker
shortly thereafter, so her disappearance wasn't taken as seriously, but then never in the docu-series do they explore whether there were any connections between those disappearances, in Wella's case, or is there a why? Is there an upsurge? Yeah, why are people going missing? Yeah, so they they never really explore any of those avenues.
00:13:38
Speaker
nor did they even address in that statement that there's really a key difference though between those teens and Emanuela, namely that those teens were citizens of Rome with a population of more than 2 million and Emanuela is a citizen of the Vatican, a city of only 700. Right, and she's the only one that went missing. But we never get any answers to those questions, nor are those questions even brought up in the docuseries.
00:14:05
Speaker
The next day, Emmanuela's family again went to police to file a report and they took a photo of her. And Maggie, here is that photo. Oh, she's precious. I know. She's beautiful. She's beautiful. She just looks so innocent. I mean.
00:14:21
Speaker
Just a young, fresh-faced girl. Emmanuela's sister, Natalina, recalled in the documentary that the police said to her, this is, oh my gosh, I've never been so angry watching a documentary. They said to her, and I quote,
Dismissal and Disregard: Initial Police Response
00:14:37
Speaker
don't worry, she's not really pretty, at least not pretty enough to be abducted and probably just left of her own accord, end quote.
00:14:44
Speaker
um Well, first of all, yeah, she is pretty punch this guy in the face. Well, why does it matter? Yeah, she's missing regardless of what you think she might have looked like. Yep. Oh my. But early reports, even though he's not willing to admit that she could have been abducted, early reports seem to contradict this fact.
00:15:06
Speaker
as they located two individuals who saw someone who looked like Emanuela being approached by a man driving a green BMW. So it could have been the man with the Avon. That's what we're thinking. He had parked his car and walked up to her. This is what the witnesses saw. The man looked to be between 35 and 40 years old and he was just under six feet tall. Now you're at least thinking, okay, was this her abductor? Was it the Avon man?
00:15:33
Speaker
Were those two different people? Are they the same? Exactly. Again, it seems that the family tried to get the Vatican involved in the search for Emanuela. Right, because they are like the government, the police. They're all within those walls. Yes, within those walls. But the message had always been to the family, well, this happened outside of our walls, so we don't have anything to do with it.
00:16:02
Speaker
So there wasn't really a push to help, even though it was one of their few citizens. Very few citizens. Exactly. They basically said the help is going to have to come from Rome. Well, the problem is the Roman police don't seem to be interested in doing much investigation. So the family did what, well, basically the only thing they knew to do, and that was to put an ad in the Il Tiempo paper on June 24th. So they wasted no time. She disappeared on June 22nd, the evening.
00:16:31
Speaker
They put an ad in the paper on June 24th with a picture of Emanuela, a short description of her disappearance, and the family's home phone number. Oh yeah, so they're wanting answers. Yes.
00:16:45
Speaker
tons of calls came pouring in. Unfortunately, and this makes me so sad for the family, many of those calls had to be weeded out because they were people who really had no information about the case, but were calling with details and leads that only caused the family more grief. But amongst all of those, there were some calls that stood out.
00:17:05
Speaker
One call was from a man who called himself Pierre Luigi, who said that he and a girlfriend had been in Rome at a place that was actually near where Emanuela attended school. He said they had seen a girl with a flute case. Oh, OK, promising. Who was selling Avon. Oh.
00:17:23
Speaker
So immediately the family thought of that call that Emmanuela had made home. And they're like, this is her. I do have to admit though, I don't know if in that ad they took out in the paper, if there were any mention of Avon. So could that have been a detail that. Like he would have only known because he was more involved. Right. yeah Because he actually saw her or.
00:17:46
Speaker
Is he just regurgitating what was my question? But if it were not in that article, I can imagine that that detail spoke volumes to her family. But the man said that the girl called herself Barbara, not Emanuela. And I couldn't find out whether the family were immediately providing all the information from these calls that came in to the police or whether they're just kind of sitting on the information. Right. I almost wonder if they were just sitting on it because of how poopy the police were. right There's probably a better word for that. but you know we go It's been a long day. It's been a long day. However, on July 26, two Secret Service agents came to the Orlando family home and they said they needed to install recording devices so that all incoming calls could be recorded.
Secret Surveillance: Monitoring Orlandi's Home
00:18:36
Speaker
Oh, in case they were like tips, I guess. Right. So maybe they had to let the police know that they'd received calls. On July 28, the family received another call that stood out to them. This one was from someone who called himself Mario, who told the family that he knew a man and his girlfriend who had two young girls staying with them. And these young girls were selling perfume.
00:18:59
Speaker
So again, there seems to be maybe that connection link. One of those girls who he said called herself Barbara. That's a very English name. Yeah. Said that she regretted being there because she was supposed to sing in an upcoming school performance. Now, as I mentioned, all the news articles mentioned Emanuela's flute because that's what the lesson she was going to that day.
00:19:24
Speaker
but a detail not published was that she wasn't supposed to play the flute at the end of the year show, she was actually supposed to sing. Oh, so this is like insider details. Yeah. So could this man know something about Emanuela, but unfortunately, that was really all of the information that they received from that call. I guess my hang up is she's approached by Avon Mann. Avon Mann says, hey, do you want to sell Avon?
00:19:54
Speaker
But if this is her though, why is she with him? Like, is this a long-term commitment that she made to so Avon? I guess I'm kind of confused as to how...
00:20:07
Speaker
that would have happened. Yeah, and her family definitely doesn't believe that she would have willingly gone with some stranger and then stayed with him and his girlfriend. Like if he was just said, hey, I'll pay you $10 to spend an hour passing out these avon flyers, then I could see right a kid being like, oh, yeah, sure. bill Hey, come home with me so you can sell perfume. right I just don't know. It doesn't sound But I think the family was at least thinking, okay, these people have insider information. right This is our only connection. We need to follow it wherever it goes. Since the family was getting much further than the Roman police were in the investigation, the family also decided to print these huge flyers and to hang them in rows around town, basically so no one would be able to overlook Emmanuela's face on them. And these people should know her.
00:21:00
Speaker
Well, they're putting these up in and Rome. Oh, yes. Because again, the belief is something happened to her in Rome and now you're in a city of two million. Right. Okay. Got it. Since police still seemed hyper focused on Emanuela leaving of her own accord,
00:21:17
Speaker
her family wanted someone to address the possibility of foul play. Because no matter what, Emanuela was missing, they needed to find her. And like I said, they did not believe these stories that she would have just left. Finally, someone addressed their deepest fears, couched in a call to action, but this public address actually started a new line of questioning oh about who was really involved here oh and who knew the truth. Oh, sounds juicy. Yes. Again, with a little background information that I need to give you first, when the Pope is at the Vatican, he will appear before a crowd
00:22:02
Speaker
sometime around midday. Right, at that little like window balcony thing? Yes, it at St. Peter's Square. Sometimes he actually comes among the crowd, sometimes he speaks from that balcony window that's overlooking the square. The Pope in 1983 was John Paul II. He was the first non-Italian Pope since the 1500s. He was actually from Poland.
00:22:23
Speaker
His papacy had begun in 1978, so he had held the position for several years by this point in 1983. And you're hoping till you step down and die, right? Right. He is the pope who, just a matter of years earlier, on May 13, 1981, had been speaking in the square among the crowd when 23-year-old Turkish citizen Ahmet Ali Agca had attempted to assassinate the pope and had managed to shoot him twice, once in the hand and once in the chest. um And Agca was a member of this ultra-nationalist terrorist group.
00:23:01
Speaker
On this particular day, Pope John Paul II was not among the proud but spoke from that balcony window, and he addressed Emanuela's disappearance, saying, quote, I would like to express the heartfelt feeling with which I join the Orlandi family, who suffer for their 15-year-old daughter, Emanuela,
00:23:22
Speaker
who has not returned home since Wednesday, 22nd of June.
Papal Involvement: Did the Pope Know More?
00:23:26
Speaker
I share the anxieties and the anguished trepidation of the parents. We will not lose hope in the spirit of humanity of those who are responsible in this case." well Yeah, it's the language that he used that led many people to question whether the Pope himself had insider information. Now, I will tell you this line of questioning, is it conspiracy theory-esque or is it logical? I'm not gonna answer that question. I will tell you the questions that okay that many people ask. So they said, is he merely expressing concern and care? right Or does he know
00:24:10
Speaker
that someone took Emanuella because the police are not willing to admit that. And that clearly insinuates that she was kidnapped. And even kidnapped by more than one individual. Exactly. I don't know. I kind of understand where their questions come from. And remember, the Vatican had for all intents and purposes said that they were going to stay out of it, that they weren't getting involved. But then here he is addressing the very issue. And this is Maybe what led to the swift and furiously growing belief that the Pope did know something is that during the investigation into Immanuelus disappearance, the Vatican refused to allow the Roman authorities to conduct any investigation nor questioning concerning Immanuelus disappearance within the walls of the Vatican.
00:25:01
Speaker
So, for example, if you and I lived in the Vatican and they wanted to question you, the Roman police wanted to question you or me, that would not happen unless we were like in Rome. They couldn't come into the Vatican and question you. I don't know if it goes even further than that, that they said you're not allowed to question any of our citizens.
00:25:22
Speaker
Yeah. But either way, it is fishy. Yeah, because not only are they saying, oh, what happened in Rome? We're out of it. But now they're basically putting up roadblocks to the very investigation.
00:25:45
Speaker
So others listening began to wonder if his words were a message to the people that he knew took Emmanuelah. Just two days after the Pope spoke those words in July, the family received another interesting call. This individual is one that we are going to come back to in the theories when we get there. The caller was a man who spoke Italian, but with a forum, perhaps an American accent, and he became known in this case as the American.
00:26:17
Speaker
But this man, unlike the other calls, said he had, quote unquote, proof of his link to Emanuela. He told the family that two of our men have already contacted you and he mentioned Pierre Luigi and Mario.
00:26:35
Speaker
the names of the ones that we know had previously called and seemed to have information about Emanuela. Okay, so this American man says, I've had two people that have already called you about her, these are their names, and none of that was published, right? Right. Yes. This American said that he spoke to Emanuela and he actually played for the family an audio of a young girl saying the name of her school and relating the details that the very next year she would be in the third year of basically high school. And her family swear that the voice of the audio played to them was indeed Emanuela. So why did the American man have access to her?
00:27:17
Speaker
We'll get to that. that's Okay. But the call didn't end with this information. It actually ended on a much more sinister note that if the Italian authorities did not release Ahmet Ali Aghja, yes, the man who had attempted to assassinate the Pope two years earlier by July 20th, that they were prepared to kill Emanuela. Okay, so I guess my hang up here.
00:27:43
Speaker
is for us yes and for her family. She is everything. To the Pope, she's another person. I don't want to use the word disposable, but I feel like they're not going to see the value in trading her for someone who tried to assassinate the Pope where we do. Right. And I think this is one of those hangups for me too, where I'm thinking,
00:28:08
Speaker
would this have, oh my gosh, the fear in her family have heightened it so much because now this isn't just, my daughter is missing, but now if there's a potential link to the assassination of the Pope, who are these people who have her and will I ever see them again or
00:28:29
Speaker
on the flip I don't want to say there's any relief. There's no relief. But now, at least, and this is sad to say, but because of that connection with the Pope, her story blows up. oh yeah I mean, it is an international story. But now we're questioning again, okay, if this really is linked to the Pope, does this guy seems to insinuate by that link to Ogja?
00:28:53
Speaker
Again, the questions, had the Pope known this already and that's why the language when he prayed that she would be returned? So how much do people know and when did they know it?
00:29:07
Speaker
Then, callers began going to the press rather than the Orlandi family at this point. Oh, and that's kind of bad too though because then everything is published and nothing is kept close. Right. They started these callers giving directions to places throughout Rome where packages would be left.
00:29:26
Speaker
And whenever those calls were received and the press followed up, there were indeed packages left there with ties to Emanuela. There were copies of report cards, a receipt for her school tuition. But how did they get that stuff? Unless it is somebody that's like,
00:29:44
Speaker
High up somewhere. Somewhere. And there was ah one little note that was handwritten that said, with much affection, you're Emmanuela. And there was even an audio tape in one of the packets of a girl saying, oh God, it hurts. Oh God, why? Oh. And she's saying that over and over again. And then the callers asked for a direct and confidential line to the Vatican to have negotiations.
00:30:14
Speaker
Y'all should see my face. During all of this time, Maggie, the days were passing and July 20th, the deadline was growing closer and closer. I can't imagine her family. Oh my gosh. Many people were, they were thinking, okay, all of this is a hoax, all these calls, all these packages. After all, it didn't seem well organized.
00:30:33
Speaker
It had taken so much time before really any do demands were related to Emmanuela's disappearance because at first you're getting these calls about her, but there's not any demands being made. So they're saying, okay, if this really were some international terrorist organization,
00:30:51
Speaker
wouldn't it have been better organized? Wouldn't they have announced who's responsible for it? Wouldn't they have made their demands from the beginning? And then why Emanuela in particular as a prime? That's what I'm saying. Yeah. She's not a cardinal. She herself is not somebody high up in the church. She's literally what? A 15 year old girl. Right. And then to support these hoax, the idea that it was a hoax,
00:31:15
Speaker
They're saying, okay, this one-line message that said, with much affection, you're Emanuela. They're like, that's not somebody writing in distress. And so they're saying, okay, these are things that might be linked to Emanuela, but they don't prove that she's still alive, nor do they prove that someone actually has her. Right. The thing with their report cards as well. On July 20th, the deadline. Yes, the deadline. Another call came from the American.
00:31:40
Speaker
to say that Emanuela was still alive, but they only had hours left to free Ogja. And again, I cannot fathom what was going through her family's mind when they're waiting for the deadline and then when the midnight deadline passed without the freeing of Ogja.
00:32:00
Speaker
So in this, this is happening. Okay. Like the Samara command is calling and he was like, Hey, we could really, yeah we could have your daughter released, but we need this auction doing released.
00:32:12
Speaker
Are they getting correspondence from the Pope? No. um There's no information that's being shared with the family at this point. And if, by the deadline passing, her family expected to have Emanuela's body returned to them, you know, as a sign that these kidnappers... Yeah, because I feel like this type of thing is like... we want this person released or we're killing this person. And they broadcast that right murder and in other situations. Yes, but that didn't happen. There wasn't just no more correspondence. It was radio silence. So then now people are probably, oh, that was... Well, they're thinking on one hand, was it a hoax? Or was something arranged on that confidential line with the Vatican that the family didn't know? Which of those is true?
00:33:04
Speaker
No one had either of those answers, or at least if they did, they weren't giving them to the family. At this point, according to an interview in the docu-series with Emanuela's brother, Pietro, the Secret Service stepped in to say, this is too much for one family to handle.
00:33:21
Speaker
And they said, how about from this point? poke secret service i It just said Secret Service. so So I don't know whether these officials were from Rome or from the Vatican. But they step in, they say this is too much for one family to handle. They suggest that all of the calls get forwarded to a lawyer from here on out who would represent the family. And their dad says, well, I can't afford to pay a lawyer to do all this. Also, I don't know that I trust these individuals to really vet these phone calls. But when he says, I can't afford it, they tell him, don't worry about it, it'll be taken care of.
00:33:59
Speaker
It's a little fishy. I know. In hindsight, all of this has to be very fishy, but I'm sure at the time they're still hopeful. They're like, oh, yeah, I work for you. How nice. Yes, yes. While there isn't a lot of information concerning other calls, I do know that the American called several more times after the deadline, including one call that insinuated that the group he was in had kidnapped not just Imanuella or Landy, a young girl of Vatican citizenship,
00:34:28
Speaker
But another young girl named Morella Grigori, who was of Roman citizenship, and this American caller said the reason that they had kidnapped both was to put pressure on the Roman government with Grigori's kidnapping because Actia was imprisoned in Rome under Roman authority and a Vatican girl because that crime had been committed against
Linking Cases: Emanuela and Mirella Gregori
00:34:54
Speaker
the Pope. So to try to put pressure on both places,
00:34:58
Speaker
Now, Marilla Grigori, she had disappeared just a few weeks before Emanuela on May 7th, 1983. She had been at home when somebody buzzed their apartment. Marilla had answered the buzz and told her family that it was a friend from school who was outside. She would be back in just a couple of minutes, but Maggie, she never came back. And we don't know if it was the friend? No. In fact, we believe it wasn't.
00:35:23
Speaker
This family, too, received a phone call at the bar that the family owned by someone who spoke Italian but with a foreign, perhaps American accent. who gave details of what Marilla had been wearing that day down to her undergarments. Oh, that's scary. But said nothing else. This phone call, though, came weeks after Marilla went missing. And unlike the Orlandi family, they did receive one other letter, but then no other communication with the family. So the question is, if the two cases were linked, then why wasn't the Grigori family also receiving continued calls? And did he say to them, we're going to kill her if you don't release No, there wasn't that communication with the Gregori family. So these are all questions that I have. And again, the docuseries doesn't explore that line of questioning. It just brings up that they could be connected. The final call from the American to the Orlandi family lawyer came on December 14th, 1983, and then nothing. No other calls from the American nor anyone else making demands ever came.
00:36:31
Speaker
Was there then really a link to Agchia and the use of the two girls to force authorities to release him? Or were these phone calls and all of the hoopla around some of the acts of international corruption just smoke and mirrors to distract from what was really going on?
00:36:47
Speaker
So we're going to talk about some of those theories because over the years, the family was taunted many times with false hopes, including one instance when they believed Emanuela could be in a convent in Luxembourg that flew there, wow only to discover that the possible match was not their Emanuela.
Conspiracy Theories and Political Intrigue
00:37:07
Speaker
but there are lots of potential things that could have happened to her that we're gonna explore. Okay, theory number one, I'll start with the Agcha connection because there are some who still believe that connection and because I've already kind of given you the background information on that one, even though in my mind,
00:37:24
Speaker
it can potentially be discounted. I'll tell you why. In 2013, remember this happened in 83, so we're talking 30 years later, a man came forward claiming to be the one who had kidnapped both Mirella Grigori and Emanuela Orlandi.
00:37:42
Speaker
I'm actually not going to use his name in this episode, though you can find it in the docu-series. And the reason I'm not going to use his name is because in my mind, he's not involved. And I don't want to give even more air time to this rather cocky man than is deserved, even though I will tell you what he claimed. Okay.
00:38:05
Speaker
Another clue came when this man came forward in 2013, in April 2013, and he told, I don't know if he told the news, I can't remember if he told the news or authorities, but he says, look in this storage warehouse.
00:38:21
Speaker
and you'll see something related to Emanuela. This man just calls authorities and says, go here and you'll see this? It was either journalists or authorities, but yes, yes. And he gives clues as to which warehouse it's in. In this particular warehouse, they discovered a flute case. ah Oh.
00:38:38
Speaker
So, asked if they could identify it, the family said, well, the velvet interior is the same color as Emanuela's, and how could somebody not associate it? right No. And the cleaning rod was missing, and the family said that makes sense to them.
00:38:53
Speaker
because one of Emanuela's other sisters always kept taking out the cleaning rod because she wanted to clean the instrument. So they're like, okay, this really does seem like it could be Emanuela's case. Unfortunately, DNA testing was not able to verify with 100% assurance that this were Emanuela's. And I do feel like her spit or something would have been in there. After the flute discovery, the man in question did come forward to claim his role in the kidnappings. And he says, I'm the American.
00:39:23
Speaker
I just don't understand why people be like, yep, it's me. I know. And I will tell you, there are parts of his story that held up and other parts that didn't. So I'll tell you both. Okay. Because obviously the theory.
00:39:37
Speaker
What held up, for example, at one point, the police had nearly caught the American. They very smartly had, they figured out that he was making these phone calls to the family and then to the lawyer using payphones. And they were able to deduce the common area of these payphones. They started disabling some of the phones. So now their search area is getting smaller and smaller.
00:40:02
Speaker
This man who came forward was able to describe that evening when he was almost caught and to explain how he had been able to exit and escape suspicion.
00:40:17
Speaker
Then you're like, okay, maybe he is telling the truth. He also said that he was responsible for kidnapping Marilla Grigori, which would explain why they also received a call from someone who spoke Italian, but with what seems like an American accent. There's clearly a connection there. And this was in the docu-series, Audio Analysts.
00:40:37
Speaker
go to the recordings of the phone calls because remember they were told to record the phone calls. They go to the recordings of the phone calls and then they go to audio of this man who's coming forward saying I'm the American so that they can compare them to see if the voice is really his. The analysts actually discover it's not him. There were two different Americans. There was one American voice who made the phone calls in July of 1983 and a different voice that made the phone calls from September through December of 1983. makes it eighty three seem like it is a group of people. But this man who came forward, his voice seemed to match.
00:41:21
Speaker
the recordings made from September through December. Again, you're like, okay, this is it. Maybe he's telling the truth. However, this man is actually a Roman photographer, not an American at all. Also, he agreed to an interview, a sit down interview with Emanuela's brother Pietro. I cannot imagine him sitting down across from the person that could be responsible. It takes a lot of willpower because I would think you'd want to Yes. But Pietro, seeing the cockiness of this guy and actually doubting his story, began asking him to recall something specific about Emanuela. Pietro says something like, the American told us something very specific about an injury that Emanuela had sustained, a detail that was never shared with the media. What happened to her? And this man,
00:42:20
Speaker
couldn't answer. um ah According to Emmanuela's brother, this was an injury, and they talk about it in the docuseries, that had been treated by doctors. So it's not exactly an injury that he could have just forgotten, yeah right? He says, if you're responsible for my sister's kidnapping, you would know this.
00:42:40
Speaker
The man though, he argues, just because I can't remember one small detail from one of the around 16 phone calls that I made, you know, up until December, it doesn't prove that I didn't commit the crime.
00:42:53
Speaker
Why is he so bent on wanting to be the one that did it? I don't know. At this point, because of the lack of those details, the family actually believe his name should be removed from the list of potential suspects in Emanuela's case. They do believe that he was responsible for the disappearance of Mirella Grigori. And this guy's just walking around free? Yes.
00:43:15
Speaker
Because again, there's no proof. Others do believe though that he is involved in both cases.
Mafia Connections: Claims of Involvement
00:43:23
Speaker
Theory number two, ok in 2006, all of these are fairly recent, years, and decades after the case, a woman named s Sabrina minority came forward.
00:43:35
Speaker
In 1983, she had been the girlfriend of the Italian crime boss, Enrico de Pedes, who was known as Renatino, who was the head of the banda della Magliana.
00:43:47
Speaker
this mafia. That's why Alison did this episode. I can't say anything. She said that she had played a role in the kidnapping of a man in 1983. She said June 22nd and the days around it, she admits this, are somewhat of a blur because she was heavily abusing drugs at the time. But she says she recalls being on a date with de Petis and his driver pulled alongside them with a girl in his car.
00:44:13
Speaker
The girl seemed, quote unquote, out of it. This young girl was transferred to the de Petis car and her boyfriend de Petis told Sabrina that they would need to take the girl to Sabrina's parents' home, which was about 30 minutes outside of Rome for two to three days.
00:44:30
Speaker
She's not asking questions yet, she will later. While at her parents' house, a woman named Adelaide came to, this is the story Sabrina is telling, came to care for the young girl. This is a young girl that s Sabrina is convinced was Emmanuel or Landy.
00:44:56
Speaker
Sabrina said that they cut the girl's hair so she wouldn't be recognized from all the posters that were now up and that this Adelaide was feeding her pills to keep her under control. Y'all.
00:45:09
Speaker
I can't. Ultimately, though, instead of staying at her parents' house for just a couple of days, she says that they held Emanuela for 10 days, locked up in a room where she was moaning, either in pain or in fear. Oh, which kind of fits the one audio. The audio. She stated on the documentary that she had asked the Pettus why he had involved her in this situation. What is the motivation here? And he said,
00:45:34
Speaker
power Oh. After the 10-day period, s Sabrina states that they move the girl to a house with a large basement, that they take her to this basement, and they leave her there. Oh. There was some follow-up with Sabrina's story, and looking for a house with a basement exactly as she described, and they talk about this, they show it in the docu-series. They actually found a house that fit her exact description of what this house looked like,
00:46:02
Speaker
And looking into the ownership, they found that the house that she had described belonged to a woman named Daniella, who was also linked to the to the band Adela Magliana to that to that group. Yes, that crime group. But I want to add here, though, that s Sabrina minority's testimony and recollections of details has shifted over the years. So there are some who question her testimony.
00:46:25
Speaker
The connections that go along with this theory line, again, are going to sound conspiracy theorists, but so do all of the likely possibilities, so this one is no different. Bear with me because this theory can actually go in one of two very different directions if it's linked to the mafia. okay The first direction is tied to money.
00:46:44
Speaker
why would the Pettis be linked to the kidnapping of a girl who's tied in some way to the Vatican? That's what we're asking, right? Well, here's the theory presented in the documentary. At least this is, I will go ahead and tell you, a nutshell of the argument that they provide. If you want to look at all the details, how they suggest, yeah, you watch the documentary. Basically, they say the mafia has ties to a lot of dirty money right that they still want to have access to.
00:47:13
Speaker
So they have to keep it, while they can't keep it in a traditional bang, they need to literally clean it first. That's where we get the term money laundering, right? They need to make it look clean in some way, having it linked to something that seems legitimate, like a company, even if it's a big company that looks legit on the surface, or to make it seem like the money belonged to somebody else so that it can then be filtered to them.
00:47:40
Speaker
The docu-series suggests, and again I do not know if there's a lot of church to this or it's conspiracy theorists, but they suggest that the bank associated with the Vatican was the ideal place because it doesn't follow the same regulations as a traditional bank.
00:47:56
Speaker
But they argue that the money could have ended up being used by the Vatican and then never filtering back to the mafia. So the Vatican owed the mafia men. Yes, and now they want their money back. So this argument is they kidnapped Emmanuelo Orlandi to use as a hostage to demand that money to be returned. And maybe that was the phone calls being made on the private Right. They argue in the film that the banker in this instance of the Vatican bank actually ran off after the bank declared bankruptcy. He ended up dead from an apparent suicide off of the Blackfriar Bridge in London.
00:48:40
Speaker
he was found with large rocks in his pocket, which were also filled with currency from at least four different countries that totaled around $16,000 in cash. There were some investigators actually in London who believed that his death was not a suicide. Right. Well, I feel like the mafia could make it look like a suicide if they wanted. Yeah. Well, they tried to do a recreation in London because he was the death was on the scaffold under the bridge, but every attempt they made at recreating it, every time they got rust or paint debris on them from the scaffold, but this banker didn't have any of that debris on him. That discrepancy led a lot of people to wonder, okay, were this banker killed by the banda della Magliani as a message to the Vatican? Hey, we mean it. Because they would see the end of a line message. Yeah. yeah
00:49:30
Speaker
But then, if that's true, why would they, if they want their money back, why would they leave all this money in his pockets? Like, that doesn't make any sense to me either. And that's, again, not a detail that's addressed in the documentary. But there was an anonymous call made in June 2011, according to an article in Il Secolo 19, I guess, or XIX,
00:49:55
Speaker
When Emmanuela's brother, Pietro, appeared on a television show, this caller said that he was a former SISMI agent. And he said that Emmanuela was alive and being held in a mental institution in London. That's random. And that the kidnapping occurred because Emmanuela's father had found out about money laundering between the mafia and the Vatican bank.
00:50:21
Speaker
But then I feel like her dad would have had to have been pretty high up in that the house of the pope. Right. Unless he overheard a conversation or something. Yeah. All kinds of questions here. The second direction that this theory with the mafia tie could go.
00:50:38
Speaker
leads us to sexual exploitation within the church. and So Sabrina, the girlfriend of Depetis, said that after they had taken the girl to the basement, several days passed when she wasn't around the girl. Then one night, she's again out with Depetis when she sees a BMW. Remember, there's that link to a green BMW, right? Of the Abraham man or whoever the witnesses saw.
00:51:01
Speaker
And this BMW, the girl, the young girl who she believes to be a Manuela is inside. The Pettis tells Sabrina that she has to drive the car to the Vatican petrol station and that there would be a car with a Vatican license plate there with someone who would take the girl.
00:51:19
Speaker
This gas station, Maggie, it is surrounded by a wall itself. So it's very private. But Sabrina said that she drove her there. She followed what the Pettis told her to do. There was a black car there and that when she pulled in, a man stepped out dressed like a priest who took the girl in his car.
00:51:40
Speaker
In the documentary, and I'll come back to that description, in the documentary, one of Emanuela's childhood friends is interviewed, and she revealed a memory that she has long held onto.
00:51:53
Speaker
About a week before Emanuela disappeared, this school friend received a call from Emanuela. She said, I've got a secret, I need to tell you, can we meet up? Her friend is thinking, oh my gosh, this is gonna be some exciting secret about a crush, right? She agrees to meet up. Her friend obviously thought this was gonna be something fun and exciting, but as soon as she saw the look on Emanuela's face and how rigid her body language was, she knew that the secret was not a good one.
00:52:20
Speaker
Instead, she said Emanuela told her that she had gone for a walk in the Vatican Gardens, and remember how fast that was. And that, quote, someone very close to the Pope, end quote, had quote,
00:52:35
Speaker
bothered her," end quote. The friend is asked in the documentary what she thinks Emanuela meant by those words and she responds, quote, bothered. Gosh, there wasn't a word. There wasn't to properly define this. It was enough for me, I swear, just to look at her to understand what she meant, end quote. And the interviewer says, did you know it had something to do with sexual advances?
00:53:03
Speaker
The friend says, absolutely, yes. But this friend says both she and Emanuela, they felt shame in a lot of ways for even talking about it. And Emanuela's friend is, she's still somewhat fearful of retaliation because she agreed. So she's still there? Yes. And she agreed to appear in this documentary, but only anonymously. Her face is pixelated. She's sitting in a darkened room. And it's obvious you can hear the pain in her voice that she feels guilt that she didn't tell this detail sooner because she wonders would things have been different just like her brother that same kind of guilt but she actually breaks down crying wondering actually even if she did who would have believed them to 15 year old girls anyway over someone with power in the church
00:53:57
Speaker
In the family's mind, at least for Emmanuela's brother, he recalls a time after Pope John Paul II passed and Pope Francis was elected. That Pope Francis would be speaking in a church near their home and he and his family decided to attend. Pietro remembers Pope Francis saying to his mother that, quote, Emmanuela is in heaven. oh And when Pietro says, well, I'm still holding out hope that she's alive, he says the Pope grabbed his hand and said,
00:54:26
Speaker
and Manuela is in heaven. and Like he knows something. Yeah. So is he just trying to give the family peace or does again, someone high up in the Vatican have some insider information. But Maggie, there are a few more details concerning the investigation into this disappearance that I need to share with you. And these could support any one of the theories a lot of ways.
00:54:50
Speaker
First, after John Paul II died in 2005, a new witness came forward in the case. There are all these witnesses like popping out of the woodwork years after. The message was left on an answering machine for an Italian newscaster. And it said, quote, regarding Emanuela Orlandi to find the solution to the case, investigate who is buried in the crypt of Sant Apollinaire Basilica and the favor Renatino and for Cardinal Piletti at the time." and quote This is the message. This particular basilica that's mentioned in the message is right beside Emmanuela's school. Aww. Okay, so that's weird. And the crypt that was found in that basilica was a grave for Enrico de Petis, the mafia mob boss linked to Sabrina.
Grave Discoveries: Mafia Boss and Missing Clues
00:55:44
Speaker
Y'all. I think my brain is going to explode. Yeah. For a tailspin, because the only people who are allowed to be buried in a Vatican owned church are people who have done something significant for the Vatican. Right. So why is this mob boss? Right. And that message that was left on the machine to Pettis's nickname was Renatino. So if this message were onto something, then what favor had he done for a Cardinal?
00:56:13
Speaker
And was this a cardinal somehow related to or with knowledge of the unwanted advances that Emanuela had mentioned to her friend? This theory.
00:56:28
Speaker
So we're saying he's going to be buried there because he kidnapped Emmanuela for this cardinal who made sexual advances towards her. To keep it a secret. Okay. That's this other branch of this theory. If not for money, it could also be for this reason. And if you are interested in learning more about this theory, I'm not going to go into it, but there was another church member, Father Gabriel Amorth.
00:56:51
Speaker
who was actually an exorcist for the church, but he intimated a similar line of accusations in a claim that he made in May of 2012 related to the theory. I'm going to have to watch this docu-series. There was a, this is the second thing I have to point out. There was a scandal in 2016 called the Vatican leaks when many documents that were previously kept hidden at the Vatican found themselves in the hands of journalists. um The story told to the journalists of how the documents were discovered was that someone went into the Vatican with a key and had used like a blowtorch to open one of the many safes from which a file was taken. And nobody knows how this crime was dealt with nor who was responsible because it was handled by the Vatican and has never been made public. But some of the documents were returned to the Vatican and some of them were not.
00:57:45
Speaker
So we know all of that to be true. One of the documents found was a dossier related to the Manuela Orlando. I cannot. her This was shocking for Emanuela's brother because, again, he stated that his family had always been told by the Vatican that there wasn't any investigation going on therein because they weren't involved since it happened on Romans. So then why do they have this file? Exactly. Eventually, one of the journalists who broke the story about the theft and some of the contents of the document was given a five page document from one of his sources.
Alleged Vatican Financial Cover-Ups
00:58:20
Speaker
It's the introduction to a much larger document and the title on this five pager that he received says, this is a list of the expenses sustained by the Vatican State for activities related to the citizen, Emanuela Orlandi. It lists expenses from 1983 up until 1997.
00:58:44
Speaker
So we think she was alive for that long? With everything, yes. With everything from expenses for food and lodging to medical like expenses and travel to a 176 Chapman Road in London, England. If this document is true, not only does it show that the Vatican knew for years where Immanuel had been, but that they themselves had funded it.
00:59:09
Speaker
and relocated her, right? Yes. When research showed that there was no 176 Chapman Road in London, those who believe this theory think that maybe the address had been a typo meant to be 176 Clapham Road, which is a Catholic owned hostel for young women.
00:59:28
Speaker
Okay, so if that's true, then you can imagine the records, they do a search, there's no girl there by the name of Emmanuela, but those who believe this theory argue that of course they wouldn't find somebody. Is there a Barbara? Yes, you right, I know. But they're saying if the church had taken precautions to remove Emmanuela from the country, she certainly wouldn't have been housed here under that name. That's what I mean. It would have been a different name if she's on the records.
00:59:53
Speaker
at all. And I'm wondering why she hasn't tried to get in touch with her family. Right. And that's the part that doesn't make any sense. The reason a lot of people, though, believe this document is real is because it also seems to support s Sabrina's story that she handed the young girl over to a man dressed as a priest. Yeah. Did they then transport her to London? You can see it again, how conspiracy theorist all of the sounds, but you've got but then you many moving pieces that seem to support it.
01:00:23
Speaker
Also, if this document were true, it would mean that Emanuela passed away in 1997 because the final line of the document mentions the cost covered by the Vatican for the final delivery and paperwork back to the Vatican. Is this why Pope Francis said to Pietro and his mother that Emanuela is in heaven?
01:00:46
Speaker
Did he know the truth? That's what obviously those who believe this theory believed to be so. And if it is true, that means her body was brought back to the Vatican. So where is it? Or is this document too far-fetched to be true?
01:01:00
Speaker
An article from Love Republica stated that Pietro revealed in April, 2023, oh, just last year, that he had copies of a letter that came it was written in 1993 between the Archbishop of Canterbury and Cardinal Paletti, the one who was mentioned in the notes between Renatino and Cardinal Paletti, that suggested that they meet at 170 Clapham Road, London.
01:01:29
Speaker
If that were true, it is just down the street from where um where she would have been yes from where she would have been. However, the archbishop publicly stated this letter arranging a meeting is false.
01:01:41
Speaker
Pietro obviously wants the truth, so he hired a lawyer, Laura Scro, to help him. In 2018, after taking on the Emanuela Orlando case, she received a letter in the mail. Again, this is all ongoing. It's not like this happened so many years ago, it's done. It contained a picture of an angel statue and one typed sentence, quote, if you want to find Emanuela, search for where the angel is watching.
01:02:08
Speaker
end quote. So it gives this picture of an angel statue and it says that while reasoning there are only two Vatican burial spots, she and Pietro start searching and they found the statue in one of them.
Empty Tomb Mystery
01:02:22
Speaker
She requested the exhumation of that tomb and to her surprise a few months later the Vatican agreed.
01:02:29
Speaker
They opened not only that tomb, but also the one next to it. However, the exhumation revealed, as Scrouse stated in a news interview, not only no signs of the remains of Emmanuelo. No signs, period. Yeah, the two team tombs are empty of the remains of the German princesses that they should have held. So who cleared them out? I don't know.
01:02:51
Speaker
Now we have an even greater mystery, but I will note here, some sources did say that while those tombs were empty during that search, and this is um mentioned in an article by Kelly Wynn from Newsweek, there were bones that were found.
01:03:06
Speaker
In a what Jonah McKeown of Catholic News Agency said were quote, previously unknown ossuaries nearby. Actually, there were two previously hidden crits in the ground under a secret door in the cemetery with the angel.
01:03:26
Speaker
Yes. But those bones were tested for age and they did not belong to Emanuela. But through this line of investigation, certain questions arise. Does the agreement to open the tobe the tombs show at this new understanding of willingness to investigate this decades old case? Or does it admit that someone in the Vatican could have been responsible? And were they who cleaned out the bones? Right. While there were Now, even more questions, at least people were again talking about Emanuela and what may have happened to her. And with that renewed interest came even more information in 2019, this time a Cardinal, Cardinal Vigano. He told Pietro's lawyer that on June 22nd, 1983, he was the Secretary of the State Secretariat. And then on that very evening at 8 p.m., the phone rang in the office.
01:04:22
Speaker
Cardinal Vigano said it was from the Vatican Press Office with a message that an anonymous man called with information that he was responsible for Emanuela's kidnapping. Though at this point, at 8 p.m., Emanuela hadn't even been reported missing by her family. It wasn't even the family's curfew yet.
01:04:42
Speaker
So why was this call made to the Vatican if the Vatican were not somehow linked to the disappearance? And so was this the mafia? Was it a link to Agja? Was it someone within the Vatican? And again, what did Emanuela know that would make her the perfect target? Was it because there was sexual abuse that she could expose? We don't know.
01:05:10
Speaker
I only pray that time will answer all of those questions. When Emanuela's father died in 2002, his son reported that he stated, quote, I was betrayed by those I served, end quote. There had been in my mind a longstanding hope that the Vatican would help the family find answers. Was her father finally speaking on the lack of aid, or did he believe their knowledge of what truly happened went much deeper? Emmanuela's mother, now 94, is still hoping for answers and is still praying for peace. In the final episode of the documentary, she states, quote, if you don't have prayer,
01:05:51
Speaker
then you have nothing in life." end quote I know that my prayer is that more people with information will come forward and that one small part of what Pope John Paul II said that day to the crowd in St. Peter's Square is true. That we will not lose hope in the spirit of humanity for those who are responsible in this case.
01:06:10
Speaker
and whether it is from guilt or from redemptive grace, that they confess the information they've held tight to all this time. Emanuela deserves it and her family desperately need to have their hope and humanity restored again, especially after so much deception and secrecy. To that end, articles have been published as recently as June of 2023.
New Investigative Freedom in the Vatican
01:06:32
Speaker
that the Vatican prosecutor has been granted the freedom, he said to Pietro, according to an article by Justin McClellan for America Magazine, quote, to investigate from the lowest to the highest up, end quote, in the Vatican, and said that much work already has been done since reopening the case in January, end quote. And that's January, 2023. And those interviews finally included some of those who are still alive, who are working in the Vatican at the time.
01:07:02
Speaker
And in an article by McClellan for America Magazine published on June 22nd, 2023, 40 years after Emanuela's disappearance, the prosecutors stated that they have, quote, found data that had never been worked with before and hoped. I hope that what he says is true and that archives of previously held information may be open. For Pietro, all the theories explored over the years as disparate as they may be lead to only one place.
01:07:31
Speaker
Let's also take it upon ourselves and speak Emanuela Orlandi's name loud and clear as well listeners by sharing her story. Because even if there aren't safe places in this world where no evil can enter, we as individuals can be safe harbors to pass along the torch in the search for justice wherever those searches may lead.
01:07:54
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:08:24
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.