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Chaos Magic and the Tongue of Angels: Discovering Leeds' Occult History
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Welcome to The Bell Witch Podcast- “Witching in the 21stCentury”
This episode is dedicated to my Mum-Alison Claire Swailes.
Episode 59 welcomes Moot Loot guest Doctor Phil, a senior lecturer at Leeds Beckett University to discusses his background in underground music and the occult, particularly chaos magic. Phil Legard is a musician and producer whose work spans classical, folk, electronic, and experimental music. As an academic, Phil studies the relationship between contemporary music and esotericism. They delve into the distinctions between high and low magic, the history of witchcraft in Leeds, and the interplay between music and spirituality. Doctor Phil shares his transformative mystical experiences and the influence of chaos magic on his music-making process. There is a deep dive into the rise of Occultisms in Leeds and the legendary ‘Sorcerer's Apprentice’ shop of Headingly where high magick zines created to spread joy and information amongst the witches and magicians of the pre internet time.
Follow Dr Phil Legard- Dr Phil Legard (@phil_legard) • Instagram photos and videos
Lamp of Goth (@larkfall.bsky.social) — Bluesky Phil Legard | Scarlet Imprint
Layla's blog post about chaos magick and cunning-folk in Leeds. includes a handy map - Wyrd England Gazetteer: Sorcerer’s Apprentices and Industrial Witches: The Urban Wyrd as Magick in Leeds, West Yorkshire
Dr Phil’s music- Music | Hawthonn Zine Collection- Home | Grimoire Silvanus Iglootree, the home of unusual books and games
Becoming The Forest Issue IV – Haus Nostromo
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Transcript
Dedication and Reflections on Motherhood
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode is dedicated to my mum, who I lost 20 years ago on the 2nd of June. Incidentally, it's Mother Day and Mother Shipton's Day.
00:00:13
Speaker
And I quote, sacred to Mother Earth in her fecund aspect. Mother Shipton was a famous seer Cambridge, which isn't right, England.
00:00:26
Speaker
and is a patron saint of women working in laundries. She's honoured on the Wednesday, immediately after Whitsunday. That's from a book called The Pagan Book of Days by Nigel Penick.
00:00:42
Speaker
And I thought that was quite uncanny and worth a mention on the podcast.
Introduction to The Bell Witch Podcast
00:00:50
Speaker
Darkcast Network, bringing our indie podcasts out of the shadows.
00:01:17
Speaker
you
00:01:30
Speaker
Now witches and beautiful souls, you are listening to at The Bell Witch Podcast with me, Swales, The Friendly Green Witch.
00:01:41
Speaker
A podcast that helps you to get witching in the 21st century. This is episode...
Preview of Interview with Dr. Phil Lagarde
00:01:49
Speaker
59 and it is a fantastic mootloo episode with an amazing guest dr phil who is an academic from harrigate based in leeds and has great insights into a culture zines music magic witchcraft and a really in-depth knowledge of the history of witchcraft and occultism
00:02:13
Speaker
occultism in Leeds and speaks to us about amazing happenings within like the rise of the occultists and all the crazy stuff that went on back then oh my god it was such a good good interview it was just like a feast for my ears side note low magic and high magic is of same value it's just the name that it's given which I'm learning about at the moment so people tend to think high magic is of higher stance but it isn't it's just not as accessible as low magic really that's the only difference they both are very powerful done with the right intentions there's more rules in higher magic there's more tradition and stuff whereas low magic it is pretty much how you're pulled to feel and move and create and ritualize
00:03:01
Speaker
You could say it's a lot more intuition-led than higher magic. It's a really interesting topic to talk about. And I probably will do an episode on that in the future. That is when my brain finally understands it completely. Because even I'm a bit like, what?
00:03:18
Speaker
But yeah, how are you? how are you, listener? I have had such a great couple of
Experience at the London Podcast Show
00:03:23
Speaker
weeks. I'm fresh back from the little half-term jaunt with my witchlings up in gorgeous Northumberland, where some of my family have moved to now, which is pretty special.
00:03:35
Speaker
Before that, I went to the podcast show in London. Oh my God, it was a big ass day. I learned loads. I met some other podcasters, including Natalie from Weird in the Wade that made me feel right at home because I felt like such a small fish in the bastard.
00:03:54
Speaker
And Weird in the Weird is such a good podcast listener. I do encourage you to go and check out Weird in the Weird. It's proper spooky. It's really well executed. And like me, Natalie does the whole thing from start to finish at home on a little computer, yes.
00:04:11
Speaker
I also met another fellow independent podcaster at the little podcast social after the second day, Luke from Impropod Podcasts.
00:04:22
Speaker
And it's such a nice podcast. I do recommend you go over there and have a listen. It's all about improvising music from stories and stuff. And I do sniff her collab on the horizon. So that'll be fun, won't it?
00:04:36
Speaker
But yes, it was an amazing day out at the London podcast show. I was amazingly gifted a ticket that a fellow listener and podcast manager had won.
00:04:49
Speaker
So that entitled me to go for the day and see all the workshops and do the social and stuff. I wouldn't have been able to go without being gifted it just because of all the finance of actually getting there from Leeds.
00:05:00
Speaker
And because it was very last minute, it was a bit of an expensive trip, but it was worth it. So massive thank you to Laeti. podcast manager who gifted me this ticket, although I didn't get to meet her actually at the event because it was so busy.
Patreon Acknowledgments and Personal Updates
00:05:14
Speaker
was messaging her and thanking her for the experience and I will link all these podcasts that I've mentioned in the description on this episode.
00:05:23
Speaker
Few new members to thank for joining at the Patreon. Deep Red Molly, Ashley Fisher, Sally Parkin and Kay Bishop.
00:05:35
Speaker
And Omayara Alvarado Jensen. Omayara Alvarado Jensen. Oh my God. I'm so Yorkshire. Sorry I butcher these names.
00:05:47
Speaker
Honestly, sometimes I don't know how you put up with me. LAUGHTER Thank you so much for joining the Patreon and I'm sorry it's been a bit quiet recently but I have been away for a week to try and recharge and entertain the little witchlings which have been very noisy in the room next to me so you'll probably hear them on
Dr. Phil's Musical and Occult Background
00:06:05
Speaker
this recording.
00:06:05
Speaker
Right that's your lot from me I'm gonna hit play now enjoy this amazing moot loot with Dr Phil of Leeds.
00:06:18
Speaker
Hello Phil, welcome to my Little Witchy podcast. So great to have you here, how are you doing? I'm doing really well, thank you. You know it's a pleasure to be here and thanks for inviting me.
00:06:29
Speaker
We're just winging it, we just had a little conversation before we hit record and i think we're going to talk mostly about magic history and everything it influences around Leeds which makes me just so excited.
00:06:41
Speaker
So if you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Okay, ah yeah, I'm while in Phil Lagarde. I'm a senior lecturer, actually, at Leeds Beckett University, specialising in music production and music technology.
00:06:56
Speaker
But I'm also a kind of long-time musician, particularly on the sort of underground, more experimental kind of scene. And a lot of my music making has been kind of tied in with...
00:07:08
Speaker
probably things quite relevant to to you you and your listeners, such as paganism, visionary experiences, and kind of imaginative engagements with the landscape and that sort of thing. So that's kind of really always informed what I've done.
00:07:24
Speaker
I guess I could briefly kind of mention a bit of that because I sort of started really my musical journey as a teenager, getting involved with ah sort of DIY recording, primarily kind of noise where, you know, yeah there's no kind of tune. It's more about the kind of feel.
00:07:42
Speaker
You just kind of use effects, pedals and amplifiers and feedback and whatever you can find to kind of create the sound. I often felt that, you know, that was a kind of a cathartic thing at the time that I needed as a teenager to kind of get some stuff, ah work through some stuff.
00:07:59
Speaker
But more and more I found sort of listening to kind of like drones and and kind of little snippets of kind of feedback and things that i was creating i had a kind of imaginative sort of quality.
00:08:11
Speaker
You know, would see quite vivid kind of visions and things when i was listening back to things or kind of deeply involved in recording and improvising.
00:08:24
Speaker
So that kind of became ah kind of mode of musical working.
Influences of Earth Energies on Music
00:08:29
Speaker
And I was also very interested in the occult at the time, particularly things like chaos magic and trying to work sigils into the music and and and all that kind of stuff.
00:08:41
Speaker
But things kind of really kind of changed onto a slightly different track when 2001, I went to i went to a place called Manantol in Cornwall on Penwithmoor. You've probably seen pictures of it It's a kind of stone ring, and then on either side it's got another stone, and it's possibly the kind of remnants of ah an ancient barrow or something you know that's just been plundered.
00:09:07
Speaker
dismantled over time. And, you know, it said that people, you know, the folklore tradition was to kind of pass children through it when they'd been born to, you know, protect them from harm.
00:09:17
Speaker
And for a bit of fun, I decided to kind of crawl through the stone. But it seemed like when I came out of the other side, something very magical had happened. it sort of... I like this, I like the story.
00:09:31
Speaker
It definitely kind of flipped the switch there ah because the rest of the day was just, you know, kind of a rapturous experience of wondering this more and everything felt like it was, you know, bathed in golden light and ah you know I was just feeling extremely kind of at one with the world. and you know It was a kind of yeah sort of mystical um experience, I suppose.
00:09:57
Speaker
So I'd already kind of flirted with sort of neo-paganism when I was first getting into my interest in the occult and stuff.
00:10:09
Speaker
And then I felt, oh, the real stuff. Well, then I'd kind of gone to a kind of chaos magic. And then I was kind of like, oh, no, the real the real stuff is like Renaissance or medieval kind of ritual magic. And that's kind of what I was really into.
00:10:24
Speaker
at that time. But I think that experience, you know, I was so focused on things beyond the earth because much sort of Renaissance magic, I was very into Cornelius Agrippa, for example.
00:10:37
Speaker
It's kind of like a top-down hierarchy. You've got God at the edge with, you know, the saints and all and the angels, and then their kind of influence passes down into the celestial spheres, and then the stars influence what's going on on earth. And in Renaissance magic, you're often trying to kind of climb back up that ladder or draw power down that sort of ladder.
00:10:59
Speaker
But this experience totally changed that
Childhood Influences on Phil's Mystical Journey
00:11:03
Speaker
for me. You know, I could feel the kind of powers of the earth, as well as, you know, their kind of unity with the the the heavens and things. And a lot of stuff that I previously had little interest in or dismissed as kind of hippy dippy sort of nonsense such as stone circles or earth energies and that sort of thing, you know, suddenly became actually quite kind of meaningful and vital to me. So a lot of my music then kind of departed from this kind of noise kind of area to trying to grasp something of that experience again.
00:11:40
Speaker
Obviously, that was kind of like quite a sort of I guess it's what has been called a kind of extroverted mystical experience where you you know you are kind of at one with the wider world.
00:11:52
Speaker
That's quite a hard thing to kind of trigger and re-engage with. It often only happens once in a lifetime, if that's for many people. And it's obviously something that when and if it happens to someone, it profoundly changes their kind of outlook on life.
00:12:09
Speaker
So because that was difficult thing to kind of recapture, um my engagement with kind of music making was it went a bit more kind of introverted. What I would be doing was going to places like Ilkley Moor and Wharfdale, particularly a place called Trollers Gill and that kind of area.
00:12:30
Speaker
and trying to sort of find something of that experience by sort of improvising in these places, ah these kind of rural places, and often seeing and a kind of call back to that sort of early stuff I was doing noise, seeing if um seeing what images would arise.
00:12:48
Speaker
but And I'd been particularly struck by this idea from Cornelius Agrippa, where he talks about what he calls the Tongue of Angels, And he says that angels and other spirits, the way they communicate with us is almost like light falling on it on a mirror.
00:13:03
Speaker
They don't speak in, well, they can be heard speaking in voices, but often what they say slides into the listeners kind of mind. and And he also talks about it being like language, but kind of also better, you know, I'm kind of thinking that felt that that was kind of hinting at the idea that they spoke in not only words, but imagery, impressions, and that sort of thing. So I'd feel that when I was in a particular state of intensity in my kind of involvement with making music, you know, sort of absorption, I guess we could call it, that that is when those kind of imageries, images and and thoughts and things and words and so on would kind of come to me. You know, I would feel that they were coming from the kind of spirits of the place.
00:13:52
Speaker
So... my gosh! Yeah, so that's that kind of became almost kind of, my you know, the way my music practice was sort of directed for about a decade, and ah ultimately, kind of became the the topic of my PhD study.
00:14:08
Speaker
It was started a few years after I kind of wrapped that project up because my wife, Layla and had a child and started our own musical project called Hawthorne, which still played with a lot of these ideas.
00:14:21
Speaker
But I felt that by that time i had a kind of enough distance between what I was doing then and the music I'd been doing between 2001 and 2010 to kind of step back. to kind of step back and analyse what had been going on. so those kind of practices ah formed the basis for my PhD.
00:14:40
Speaker
I think it's amazing that you found it so early on, like in your life. That is so incredibly lucky. Like I'm 40 odd and I'm only just getting it. So, you know, well done.
00:14:51
Speaker
Right place, right time. Yeah, I mean, I think, well, looking into my PhD, I kind of quickly realized because I was trying to construct a kind of or to earth and the graphic well autobiographical statement, which would become one of the data sources.
00:15:05
Speaker
as well as my kind of archives and things. I initially started trying to construct that from around, you know, the time of this event at Men on Tall. But then I found actually I had to go way, way back and ah kind of look look into kind of aspects of my childhood, because I think a lot of, you know, this kind of response to music and and so on.
00:15:28
Speaker
um aside from the, you know, rather strange, mystical occurrence at Mount Hall. I think a lot of the way I was responding to music, which ultimately I feel kind of led me to have a certain disposition, actually kind of was formed in my my childhood, because I remember sort of having this tape of The Hobbit.
00:15:46
Speaker
And, you know, I used to listen to it intently, like every night, you know, and just like, try and visualise in extreme detail, you know, everything that was happening.
00:15:58
Speaker
And it had this wonderful music by a guy called Bob Gilbert, plays Sultry, and that that was just kind of so enchanting. And every time I heard it, I'd been almost like an imaginative reverie.
00:16:09
Speaker
And it was quite interesting later to find out that... Bob Stewart also is a neo-pagan and he's he produced lots of sort of path working CDs and books on magic and music and all that kind of stuff so yeah it's really nice to kind of come full circle a bit later in my life with his work and who he was and who I'd become yeah I'll connect it and it's amazing are you looking for your next true crime podcast do you crave stories that have mystery and suspense Well, look no further.
Introduction to "Love and Murder" Podcast
00:16:42
Speaker
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00:16:48
Speaker
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00:17:01
Speaker
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00:17:16
Speaker
That's Love & Murder backwards, murderandlove.com. i See you soon.
00:17:23
Speaker
And you mentioned chaos magic. So do you actually practice chaos magic? I was really kind of involved in it in my late teens, particularly ah sort of online group called Z cluster, which was really interesting. And it had quite an interesting range of people on there.
00:17:42
Speaker
You know, you wouldn't really necessarily expect like Nima. the lady who kind of started this this sort of marked magic current. But yeah, I mean, it was a kind of fascinating, really creative time, you know, and I think that thing of anyone can do this, that that's what really pulled me in.
00:17:58
Speaker
Because, you know, was doing quite a lot of sort of smaller kind of neo pagan kind of rituals. But I think what I was really interested in was not necessarily the religious aspect the kind of magical aspect. So when I discovered chaos magic, which was actually pretty much through chance because found an issue of this magazine 14 times when it was much more obscure and, you know, i was kind of in my, I think I was about 17 and there was a copy of it in forbidden planet in New York and it kind looked fascinating.
00:18:30
Speaker
ah So I picked it up, but then I was reading through it and I saw in the back, there was these reviews. one of which was for a book called Pseudonomicon by a guy called Phil Hine. And it was a ah book about working magic with H.P. Lovecraft and the Cthulhu mythos.
00:18:47
Speaker
My dad had kind of read me some of these stories and I'd got his copies of the books. So I was kind of very fond of them. blew my mind that actually someone would use these fictional kind of constructs for creating magic. And, you know, was completely unaware of the way people like Kenneth Grant and things had talked about Lovecraft as a kind of unwitting prophet and and sort of ah someone who channeled these kind of forces from beyond.
00:19:12
Speaker
So I was kind of extremely intrigued by that. And ultimately, I managed to kind of get a copy. And I didn't really understand much of it. But I think what's interesting, actually, is Phil was very much involved in both chaos magic and this sort of neo-pagan scene.
00:19:28
Speaker
And he kind of really brought them together, almost in this book, in a quite a bleak way. You know, although he's talking about Cthulhu and Shub-Niggurath and all these kind of strange entities.
00:19:39
Speaker
Ultimately, though, he's talking about them almost as like forces of nature. And I guess if we talk about Oakley more, we'll probably get back onto that and and and Phil Hines' work.
00:19:51
Speaker
Basically, that book was my first introduction to Chaos Magic because it's written from that kind of perspective with those very fundamental techniques of things like pathworking and sigilisation.
00:20:04
Speaker
i Yeah, I kind of um was really kind of intrigued. I didn't understand it all. But then when Phil got on kind of online, he he actually put up books like Condensed Chaos and Aspects of Evocation as free PDFs.
Chaos Magic Practices in Daily Life and Music
00:20:20
Speaker
So they became kind of my initial sources for chaos magic. And then Yes, I joined this this group Z cluster, you know, had a great time thinking, oh yeah, anyone can can kind of do this. I can create my own rituals.
00:20:34
Speaker
The main thing is, you know, generating and enough energy or this kind of gnosis state that kind of is is often said to sort of be the way these things kind of function or are powered.
00:20:45
Speaker
And it became a huge yeah part of my life. And as I said, part of my kind of music making. at the time. And then I moved across to this Renaissance magic and then I kind of found my own kind of practice in sort of music making.
00:20:59
Speaker
But I think I probably would still count myself as a chaos magician in many ways, because I still kind of do a lot of those practices.
00:21:09
Speaker
I think sigilisation is actually ah really interesting, useful practice in some ways, regardless of if it's effective or not. I think it's quite good to sit down and and think about what you say want to achieve and and just get those things kind of almost out of your system in some ways. It's the whole kind of idea that you've then got to kind of forget.
00:21:32
Speaker
in order for the sigils to actually function is a kind of really interesting one to me. So often, Leila and I will sit down a few times a year and just create lots and lots of sigils.
00:21:45
Speaker
We like that kind of idea of shoaling where you create a huge range of sigils for, for various things that you kind of want to achieve or want to happen.
00:21:56
Speaker
And then you treat that almost like a shoal of fish, which is following ah leader. And then that leader is often active is, is something, you know, will happen. Often we're we're quite focused on the river wharf as well.
00:22:08
Speaker
That's become sacred river for us. And, you know, maybe I can talk about that shortly. But we'll often kind of tie that that leader of the shoal to things like the wharf. So when rain falls in the wharf or when a salmon leaps in the wharf or that kind of thing, you know, then it gives the other sigils a little kind of spark.
00:22:28
Speaker
So we'll do those and then periodically then burn them and start again. We do quite a lot of just low level, fairly practical stuff like that, as well as In our music making, often that's quite involved a lot of ways, you know, with doing things like scrying as ways to generate imagery and lyrics and and all that sort of stuff.
00:22:50
Speaker
I think I'd still say that that's probably the best tag for me now. I mean, I kind understand cast magic a little bit, but it does it does scare me quite a lot because it is about setting someone off in it and like letting it go do its own thing. And I think I'm just too much of a ah control witch to which. I mean, I'd love to get there and trust the process and stuff. it's funny you said about sigils. You create a sigil and then you don't see it again. You like release it.
00:23:18
Speaker
have My practice is very much create a sigil and I spend time with it and I speak to it and I meditate with it. And so it's just interesting now. I guess that's higher magic and lower magic in it and how different they are.
00:23:28
Speaker
I don't know if you can yeah I I feel kind of slightly uncomfortable making okay I mean I used to be very into like oh this is the real high magic and this is okay I'm just I'm just discovering it honestly yeah I mean I I feel that yeah it's quite hard isn't it I'm kind of generally against kind of hierarchies and and and you know that sort of thing because ah You even find, even in those kind of grimoires and stuff, lots of kind of smaller spells and little recipes and that kind of thing.
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, it feels kind of perhaps a little sort of ahistorical sometimes, or, you know, a bit, what's the word I'm looking for, anachronistic maybe to try and make those distinctions, because I don't know exactly how distinct they might have been ah in the past and things. Yeah.
00:24:15
Speaker
ah You know, I'm big fan of people like Paracelsus as well, who linked so-called folk magic and remedies with his hermetic philosophy and stuff. You know, think that's kind of really inspirational. You're really brainy, I can tell. You know a lot more than I have any clue about.
00:24:30
Speaker
Go through my life winging it, I tell you. I like that. I mean, I think I pretty much go through my life winging it as well. I know, it is. that's okay, that's okay. I think everybody probably does.
Leeds' Occult History
00:24:42
Speaker
So you're a Leeds lad. i'm I'm a bit ah ashamed to admit that I actually originally come from Harrogate. Oh, here we go. Harrogate.
00:24:52
Speaker
And you know stuff about Leeds and magic. It's kind of almost an extension, I guess, of um what was you know what I was kind of becoming interested in with the sort of rural stuff. I'd often kind of dig into the folklore of an area and that kind of thing.
00:25:07
Speaker
With regard to sort of Leeds itself, I moved here in about 2000. two thousand So I've been here 24 years, longer than I lived in Harrogate. And the first place I lived was on Woodsley Road in Hyde Park.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that kind of looks over a place called Back Burley Lodge Road, where the Sorcerer's Apprentice shop kind of still stands. And I kind of was quite interested in that because I'd ordered stuff from the Sorcerer's Apprentice in the past.
00:25:39
Speaker
And i kind of knew that it was very long-running occult shop, very much kind of at the centre of development of Chaos Magic in many ways. I kind of became really interested in that and, you know, the kind of feeling that maybe I'd arrived in Leeds just a bit too late because some of the key players like Phil Hine had moved to London and I just missed Jairus also moving to London, who became kind of really important to me, particularly about his work about Verbea as the goddess of Wharfdale.
00:26:13
Speaker
I think that's kind of where this kind of interest in the sort of occulture of Leeds really began. ah don't know if you've ever been to the site where The Sorcerer's Apprentice is? No.
00:26:24
Speaker
It's still pretty foreboding. It's a big kind of end terrace, and ah both sides of it are kind of occupied by what was once this shop, Social's Apprentice.
00:26:38
Speaker
And it's all painted black, And there's a kind of, you know, imposing door knocker on there. And if you look up at the windows, they're all kind of, they've all kind of got like mesh over them to prevent people breaking it in or whatever.
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, quite a kind of eerie little part of the street. But it was run by a guy called Chris Bray, who called himself Freyta Marabbas. And he was very much involved in...
00:27:03
Speaker
the kind of pagan scene in a lot of ways. You'll see him occasionally on old episodes of look north where, you know, they they say, oh And it happens to be Beltane today and here's some pagans doing their Beltane ritual.
00:27:16
Speaker
but You know, just those kind of little filler kind of sex. You know, he seemed to be an extremely kind of canny business person because in one form or another, Sorcerer's Apprentice has kind of persisted and until the the present.
00:27:30
Speaker
He's quite old now and it only really sells digital things like PDFs and and sound recordings. But at the time... It was a kind of total treasure trove.
00:27:41
Speaker
I remember sending off for a um ah pentacle, Solomonic pentacle. In fact, I'll just grab Have you got it? oh But it it came in like a massive envelope with tons and tons of catalogues and bits of paper, you know like lists of herbs and incenses and magical paraphernalia and Freta Morabas' own love potion that would make you irresistible to members of the opposite sex or whatever.
00:28:11
Speaker
He also did a ah homosexual one bit later, which was, you know, i think very kind of forward looking. Yeah, it was just a kind of amazing kind of wad of stuff that obviously was being sold there, including also things like amulets of the swastika stone from as found on Oakley Moor and other stuff that kind of also connected a bit with the kind of local landscape.
00:28:31
Speaker
But it seems like he kind of pretty much dedicated his entire life to the occult in the form of running this shop and a kind of shop on Hyde Park Corner called Astonishing Books, which is now a Greek restaurant.
00:28:44
Speaker
And he also published a magazine called Lamp of Thoth, which I think is kind of one of the most interesting of the zines of the sort of 1980s.
00:28:55
Speaker
He was kind of a figure who was really kind of central to this small but very enthusiastic occult and neo-pagan scene in the UK as well as in Leeds.
00:29:06
Speaker
I think, obviously, he was very kind of outspoken and, you know, i think quite hard-headed, which led the shop being becoming a sort of target for Christians during the sort of satanic panic era.
00:29:21
Speaker
And then his shop, Astonishing Books, was firebombed. So it was kind of raised to the ground. And in some ways, it feels like he didn't recover fully. yeah You know, obviously that's going to totally traumatize anyone.
00:29:35
Speaker
So but yeahd they'd founded something called the Sorcerer's Apprentice Fighting Fund, which then became the Subculture's Awareness Freedom Foundation, which still kind of has a presence and there's quite a lot of interesting stuff on their website.
00:29:48
Speaker
But yeah, it seems like that's when they kind of went dark, became mail order only, which is a shame because in the eighties that shop on back Burley Lodge road and astonishing books really had acted as a kind of hub for a lot of young magicians who had moved into the area.
Chaos Magic Community in Leeds
00:30:04
Speaker
Dave Lee. one of the kind of prominent chaos magicians had had moved to Leeds to study, as had Phil Hine. Ultimately, they kind of both met at these sorcerer's apprentice ah so-called coffee mornings because he'd opened the shop up on a Saturday and there's a little kind of lockup down down the road where he would have cups of instant coffee and things and After people had made their purchases, they'd kind of go out, go and kind of hang out there.
00:30:30
Speaker
And really, that's where it seems like the IOT, the Illuminates of Thanateros, one of the kind of most popular chaos magic groups, certainly the kind of original chaos magic sort of order.
00:30:43
Speaker
If you can have an order in chaos, did a lot of recruiting there because the guys who founded it, Ray Sherwin and Pete Carroll lived in a place called East Morton, just on the other side of Oakley Moor.
00:30:54
Speaker
And, uh, they would often attract, you know, nascent chaos magicians and things who were patronizing Sorcerer's apprentice and kind of bring them into their group. Lots of interesting things kind of happening around the area. And it became kind of a little hub, I guess, with Phil Hine, Dave Lee.
00:31:12
Speaker
a guy called P.D. Brown, who was very kind of much into things like the runes, and a guy called Rodney Orpheus, who left Northern Ireland almost on a whim, came to Leeds because he knew about The Sorcerer's Apprentice. Having visited it once, managed to find ah flat to sleep in at the coffee morning and become, you know, start working at The Sorcerer's Apprentice.
00:31:34
Speaker
So that little core of, I guess, like six people really kind of helped to stimulate chaos magic during that time. And The Sorcerer's Apprentice published some of the sort of early chaos magic texts and would promote them quite a lot in the magazine. So quite often, pretty much the first page in many issues is like an advert for Peter Carroll's Lieber Null.
00:31:58
Speaker
That's one of the sort of foundational texts of chaos magic or the follow-up Psychonaut. They often have quite incredible copies. You know, like ah your key to chaos magic, the terrible knowledge of the workings of chaos and the ultimate blasphemy and things. But, you know, sales pitches aside, I think he did a great job of promoting the sort of early chaos magic literature to to a readership that was quite wide.
00:32:24
Speaker
The Lamp of Thoth, he had a kind of open door policy, really. So. You've got everyone in there from ah various neo-pagans and people like, you know, so-called King of the Witches, Kevin Carlyon, to to um Chaos Magic by Phil Hine, to people like the Fraternitas Saturni in some issues, and even the notorious Order of Nine Angles, you know, comes up in there, as well as kind of a lot of Chaos Magic stuff, shamanism, runes, pretty much anything would go
00:32:58
Speaker
in these magazines. So he was cultivating quite a wide audience, many of whom were sort of receptive to the ideas of chaos magic as well. And there's a lot of gossip in these magazines. There's a column called Gollum's Gossip, which is basically takes everyone down a peg, ah particularly... ah love Particularly Chris Bray's enemies and things. So ultimately, this might kind of led to a bit of a schism, I think, between The Sorcerer's Apprentice and the kind of Chaos Magic set, because they they published a magazine called Chaos International, where they rubbished a Chaos Magic cassette that Chris Bray had released. Oh my God, is that handbags at dawn? Yeah, I mean, people sometimes seem to go on about like, like it as if this kind of backbiting and drama is kind of new, but obviously everyone's been at it for ages. You just have to look at Crowley and...
00:33:54
Speaker
and matters and all that stuff and even going thomas vaughan the alchemist you know the welsh alchemist he was always like laying into people so um so yeah it's been going on a long time but it it did kind of cause a schism because they also published a comic about a kind of like conman spiv type character that ran an occult shop called arthur arfinch and i think that was kind of too much and um Too far, too far. Yeah. Subsequent, in a subsequent issue of Lamp of Thoth, Chris Bray, basically, you know, any any book by Ray Sherwin that he reviews just gets slated. He has has a whole page dedicated to like a tirade against Ray Sherwin called Ray Smarmy and all that kind of stuff.
00:34:39
Speaker
But yeah, that kind of whole area around The Sorcerer's Apprentice became quite kind of populated by some of those early figures. So there's a place called Asheville Avenue where Rodney Orpheus lived, only a couple of doors down from Sisters of Mercy. Occasionally they'd kind of do rituals on places like wood park more Woodhouse Moor, you know, which I can't really imagine given that it's got... you know, major roads running past it.
00:35:03
Speaker
And there's a ah place called 179 Bellevue Road. It's quite interesting because it's also near a kind of little modern stone circle in Hyde Park. But that's where I think Rodney Orpheus started living there. Dave Lee, Phil Hine.
00:35:18
Speaker
were kind of practicing goetic magic in the attic in a kind of circle made of
Role of Leeds University Occult Society
00:35:23
Speaker
masking tape. and I think Dave Lee was doing kind of blacksmithing, making magical knives and things in the garden.
00:35:30
Speaker
So there was kind of, you know, lots of bits and pieces going on. And a lot of it also kind of clustered around the Leeds University Occult Society, which I think Rodney Orpheus may have had a hand in setting up.
00:35:43
Speaker
But, you know, basically they they wanted to use the student sort society system to kind of, yeah, get in touch with occultists and promote occult talks and that kind of things. You know, and it had quite a long run. I think it was still going in some form into the 2000s. And, you know, they had loads and loads of really interesting speakers from UK sort of scene come there. So that's really kind of cool and interesting.
00:36:06
Speaker
Wow, I had no idea that Leeds had so much. I mean, I've not even talked about i even talked about the yeah the cunning folk and and the witches and that sort of stuff, but that's more in the sort of city centre.
00:36:20
Speaker
But I'll send you a link because my wife, Leila, also wrote a really nice piece about the kind of chaos magic and ah earlier sort of cunning folk in Leeds. And it's got a little map as well that we put together. So you can include that if you want. Yeah.
00:36:37
Speaker
So the zines then, you create your own zine. I don't really make it and my own zine. I mean, I don't have time. have time. but In the past I have, in in the sort of early 2000s, I did a little kind of local music zine kind of about,
00:36:54
Speaker
primarily about the sort of Leeds underground. music scene, but also there was sort of quite a few kind of occult nicks and nacks in there. But with the scenes, because when I was doing my, my PhD, as I said, I was kind of really entranced by the Sorcerer's apprentice and this kind of milieu around it, who had kind of recently left.
Significance of Zines in Occult Networking
00:37:13
Speaker
So I was trying to find out everything I could about them, particularly things about how Ilkley Moor was used as a site of magical practice, because it had also become a site for my own practice. So that kind of led to me just trying to amass as many of these zines as I could, because I think more interesting than than the sort of articles is the stuff like the personals and the adverts and all that stuff that gives you a real kind of sense of the time.
00:37:39
Speaker
And I think I'll just mention one. Yeah, Lampethoth, you know, had lots of kind of really interesting material about kind of how people were networking. and who was kind of contributing to whose kind of zines and books and all that stuff.
00:37:54
Speaker
But some of the contacts and and personal ads are actually pretty amusing as well. I just wanted to read this one, which actually, i think this might have also been one that kind of led possibly to the Sorcerer's Apprentice getting into a lot of trouble with the Christians, because Roger Cook did a so-called expose on the the shop and Satanism and so on.
00:38:17
Speaker
And he mentions this advert, ah which says required gentlemen to assist and supply subjects for the study and practice of necromancy. Interests include morbid anatomy, the macabre cemetery memorabilia, coffin clothes, and every allied subject.
00:38:33
Speaker
Write to Pamela B, 171 Kimberley Road, Leicestershire. Obviously, someone wanted someone to do some grave robbing. That's amazing. You had to do that today. But yeah, that's kind of how kind of, you know, open door the policy was. And I think that worked well in some ways because it meant Lampetop had a huge range of articles and really kind of interconnected all sorts of people in the occult scene.
00:38:58
Speaker
But also maybe a little bit of editorial control might have...
00:39:04
Speaker
prevented quite a lot of trouble. But yeah, it's I think these scenes, they give such a good idea of what was going on at the time. And as I said, most of the kind of interesting stuff is for me personally beyond the articles and more about seeing who's connected to who and and kind of what's going on at the time.
00:39:20
Speaker
So I think one of the kind of big ones for me while I was sort of looking at what was going on in West Yorkshire was this one called Earth, which was published by a guy called Paul Bennett.
00:39:31
Speaker
And this magazine is kind of interesting because it kind of connects everything. It kind of makes you see how interconnected all kind of facets of this occultural world were at the time.
00:39:45
Speaker
because in earth you've not only got sort of neo-paganism and like earth mysteries, you know, this kind of alternate sort of ah alternative sort of archeology that entertains things like ley lines and, and so on and the earth energies, but you've also got UFOlogy because a lot of the people who moved into kind of interests in earth mysteries and, and also neo-paganism were also kind of interested in the UFO scene.
00:40:11
Speaker
People like, ah you know, I think a good example is Philip Heselton. who found out about ley lines from a book called the straight line mystery, which said that, you know, a UFOs move in straight lines and then became fascinated with that concept and then decided to kind of try and reform Alfred Watkins, lay hunters club. And that led to the formation of a magazine called the lay hunter. So that's kind of almost born out of the UFO scene.
00:40:37
Speaker
And then Philip Heselton also became a neo-pagan. and a Wiccan, you know, that was kind of under the surface for a long time. But then, you know, he's now kind of very public about it and has written things like biographies of Gerald Gardner and done a lot of kind of great research in that area.
00:40:54
Speaker
So there's all these kind of interconnections and people's biographies and interests, you know, I find very interesting how they sort of develop over time and move shift from one kind of area of the sort of esoteric or occult to another.
00:41:07
Speaker
And it also connects, yeah, there's articles by ritual magicians, such as Franz Bardenstern, articles on yoga by people like Phil Hine and also kind of chaos magic.
00:41:20
Speaker
And you've kind of pretty much got everything in there and a bit of psychic questing as well, which is a kind of practice that marries sort of earth mysteries and mediumship.
00:41:30
Speaker
you know It's this idea that you go out to a place and you kind of are guided by spirits and pretty much any object you find is treated as like an apport. Like it was put there by the spirits for you to find.
00:41:43
Speaker
So yeah, so much kind of interesting stuff. And that magazine Earth... very much connected with West Yorkshire and that kind of scene. And it has some really kind of interesting aspects to it. There's a particular one where they rediscover a lost stone circle called Backstone Circle.
00:41:58
Speaker
And they do these kind of vigils there where, which coincide with UFO sightings and they see cloaked figures, dancing around the circle and becoming a kind of vortex of energy and all this kind of stuff. Really kind of interesting and really interesting to think about what happened, we you know, how how that experience and experience narrative was formed. And, you know, I also kind of find find myself thinking often when I read these kind of narratives from the 80s, how much media might also kind of prime us for how we interpret experiences. You know, there's always a lot of kind of laser effects or
00:42:34
Speaker
energy lines and things that really remind me of 80s special effects, you know, which are perhaps not so present in earlier narratives and that kind of thing. So yeah, just really, really fascinating. So my friend Bob Clunas at the University of Iceland has also helped me collect these scenes because he's doing a PhD about esotericism and accelerationism, which also, i guess, has has a lot of roots in the kind of chaos magic sort of
Collecting Zines for Scholarly Preservation
00:43:04
Speaker
subculture as well. So we've been doing a lot of hunting for these scenes, and but unfortunately they don't come cheap.
00:43:09
Speaker
You know, they're usually see like 20 pounds up for a copy. Because I think they're so ephemeral, really. They get lost, damaged so easily. um so we're trying to make some movements also to preserve them for other scholars as well.
00:43:25
Speaker
Wow, you've got a lot, haven't you? You must have a huge collection. it's very impressive. laid it all out in front of me actually behind the computer as a kind of aid memoir. Is there anything like that today? I mean, do people still create these things?
00:43:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there's some there are some interesting zines, things like um Weird and Weird Walk and White and there's a zine called Occulture and they seem to actually have quite a kind of fairly wide sort of distribution and readership and even if you go into shops like colors may vary in the corn exchange you'll you'll find copies of that and of course there's northern earth which uh is a very long-running earth mysteries magazine which has been going since the 80s or possibly even even the late 70s recently passed into new editorial hands but again it's a kind of small format a five
00:44:16
Speaker
magazine that's still going uh which is great and there's a really good kind of animistic and kind of pagan one but i've totally forgotten who it's published by i should maybe i'll be able to put together a little list but uh yeah i've only got the vintage ones out now Actually, there's a couple of fairly new ones here. But I mean, I think the zine culture has really had a revival recently because I guess it feels possibly people were publishing a lot kind of like PDF zines and things kind of in 90s and
00:44:49
Speaker
ninety s and two thousand But I guess people are kind of get a little bit sick of social media and things as well and and the internet and like to have something physical.
00:45:00
Speaker
I've seen that zine almost seems to be used interchangeably with like the idea of a chapbook as well, you know, just cheap folded paper. But there's so much of that. I kind of moonlighted a little bit in the kind of role playing game scene, writing bits and pieces. You know, since kind of lockdown, the whole kind of idea of zines has changed.
00:45:18
Speaker
completely blossomed because it's they're cheap you know and they're accessible art exactly exactly so that's really great a couple of zines that have just dropped through my letterbox in the last couple of days that are kind of new is a ah really interesting looking one called means which is i think it's published in leeds but it's a kind of underground music magazine with kind of special kind of thematic issues this one on power privilege and politics got really interesting article about ukraine's underground and i've kind of become a bit of a fan of this one called nocturnal curse recently as well which is a kind of black metal and dungeon sin related scene i like the look of that one yeah i mean true to form with many of the kind of black metal zines everything's in a kind of black letter
00:46:07
Speaker
typeface. But I mean, I've kind of recently turned to that scene as a you know possible area of study as well, because I think of all kinds of contemporary music making, that's the sort of dungeon-sins genre is one that really puts imagination and discourses around the imagination at the centre of the kind of music making. So I'm kind of trying to put together a little bit of research about how artists in that engage with mental, musically evoked imagery, as well as world building.
Soundscapes of Chaos Magic and Music
00:46:36
Speaker
you talk at the um in the beehive in Bratford there's a moot in there yeah yeah it's a Shipley yeah I think I've only done one talk there which was about the soundscapes of chaos magic so it's looking at again a lot of the kind of resources came from zines looking at the record reviews and music, you know, musicians who'd contributed to them and, ah you know, trying to dig into what was on people's turntables at the time and how did the magic inform the music and the music inform the magic.
00:47:09
Speaker
So that was a really nice talk and very much looking forward to doing that kind of somewhere else as well. ah But it's a nice little crew at the Beehive. I've been there a couple of times. Darren, who runs it. is a very committed to it as well. You know, it's it's amazing that it it runs so regularly.
00:47:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's going to go from strength to strength, hopefully. And it's really great that they've also been using, got kind of a little ritual space going and and and doing some kind of practice as well. Yeah, it's lovely to see it flourish.
00:47:38
Speaker
Have you been down? No, just because like kids and life and it's Tuesday and there's brownies and rainbows and, you know, it's like I have to wait until they get all the knack and join in. But I know Hazel of X-Tarot who started it. Yeah.
00:47:53
Speaker
And I probably know quite a lot of people who go So what else would you like to mention? is it Would you like to talk about your band um and the magic of that? Yeah, i mean, I guess what it could kind of Talk a little
Hawthorne's Musical and Magical Fusion
00:48:06
Speaker
about that. Yeah. So, um yeah, when I i finished ah my kind of project with the the genius loci, it coincided with a little bit of a kind of creative sort of lull.
00:48:16
Speaker
But then Layla and I so started kind of, you know, making our own musical project called Hawthorne. And it was very much influenced by our love for a band called Coil, which is a kind of 80s post-industrial group that also in the later 90s and early 2000s turned towards this kind of genre of ambient music that they called moon music. they kind of turned kind of more towards paganism and and moved out to live by the sea at Western Supermare.
00:48:47
Speaker
The band initially started very influenced by that because, and and even the name is kind of derived from that kind of legacy because the singer was called John Balance and he spelt it in a very particular way, referencing the way we spell Hawthorne.
00:49:01
Speaker
And his ah ashes were scattered at a kind of Hawthorne in Bassanthwaite in Cumbria. The kind of music almost started initially as a ah way to commemorate his life and work, but also as a kind of seance to ask him to guide the project.
00:49:23
Speaker
That involved actually quite a lot of interesting work, I think, with one of the ways it started was by taking lots of interviews with John Balance.
00:49:34
Speaker
And then I wrote a computer program that would cut them into like half-second fragments. And then it would play one fragment and another fragment in each ear of the headphones.
00:49:46
Speaker
And then you'd listen to these repeating and they would seem to come together to form words. oh Oh. like hollow, moon, and all that kind of thing. So those words became lyrics, or they became things that like we could kind of string together into visualizations.
00:50:02
Speaker
which would then generate more lyrics and musical themes and that sort of thing. But one kind of really interesting thing that happened at the time was our son was only a few months old and we'd been kind of messing about with these so-called Spiricom frequencies.
00:50:19
Speaker
They're part of this kind of machine that was allegedly built to communicate with the dead. And I think the kind of rationale behind them is that they possibly mirror the harmonics of a human voice so that when another signal is kind of filtered through them, it resembles a vocalization.
00:50:38
Speaker
But we'd been kind of playing with these Spiricom frequencies and and keeping John Balance in mind. And then when we went to bed, we were co-sleeping with our son. And very early in the morning, he woke up and was sat up, brought up right in bed.
00:50:54
Speaker
just animatedly talking to thin air and then listening and then laughing so yeah there's definitely definitely something going on there and then yeah subsequently we often kind of work in kind of similar ways as well ah looking for kind of particularly strong themes or using dreams or other sorts of vision making in our process.
00:51:21
Speaker
So we had a whole album which was kind of dedicated to mugwort. You're quite into herbs and so you probably know about some of the properties of mugwort. um But particularly using it as a kind of dream inducing herb.
00:51:36
Speaker
I mean, I find it actually gives me really bad sort of almost like a hangover. um really? Yeah. But it it does, you know, often stimulate some quite interesting dreams. So that that was kind of one approach to to doing our album, which was called Red Goddess of This Men Shall Know Nothing.
00:51:52
Speaker
Our last album that we did Earth Mirror has, I think one particular track is called Odo Galsei, which is an Enochian phrase, but it basically came from, we did a ah ritual called Shaddai's Gate, where you draw a kind of talisman of a gate.
00:52:10
Speaker
And then you do your kind of opening rituals, whatever those might be for you. And then you visualize yourself approaching the gate and passing through it. And, you know, it's almost like one of those spirit vision exercises in the Golden Dawn, you know, where you visualize the tatvas on the doors or whatever, and then pass through, only just a little bit more involved.
00:52:32
Speaker
But Layla did that ritual and had this kind of vision of a sort of triangular, sorry, pyramid shaped hill. And it was surrounded by water.
00:52:43
Speaker
And then there was a kind of pear tree with a kind of golden pear or something on it that then dropped into the water, thinking about what that meant, and then translating it into the language of Enochian, this sort of and magical language developed by John Dean Edward Kelly in the 16th century, that kind of became the lyrics.
00:53:02
Speaker
We wrote down the the the vision, translated it into Inocion, and that kind of became ah the song, so to speak. So, yeah, we kind of do a lot of barely involved things to create the music. So deep, isn't it? there's so much layers.
00:53:19
Speaker
I mean, that means that means we're actually extremely slow at producing the material. I get that completely. I'm also really slow at producing stuff. And yeah, Leila's other band, Tristica Fenywod, is a kind of Welsh language goth band. And ah that's really kind of taken off and, you know, had quite a lot of kind of popular crossover. So she's quite busy with that, which is great.
00:53:42
Speaker
It's really, really, really, really cool to see this, how this kind of underground pagan group has been embraced by, know, so many people. So it might be a little while before... The next Hawthorne comes out. But yeah, we we've we still got quite a lot of ideas.
00:53:58
Speaker
We were very struck by a trip to Patern a few weeks ago after we played a show in London. And it's a kind of Neolithic midden. It's basically a field, farmer's field, but you just have to walk a lot on it.
00:54:12
Speaker
And you'll see fragments of ancient pottery. Leila found a fragment of human skull. because There's bones and and and buried there.
00:54:22
Speaker
And yeah, it's quite magical, you know, just seeing all this stuff kind churned 4,000 or more years old. more years old So I think that might be the kind of inspiration for some some future work.
00:54:35
Speaker
I think there's a really interesting thing about it. I think that only bones from the left-hand side of humans have been found there. Don't quote me on that, but you know there's definitely something something very strange going on. Yeah, that is weird.
00:54:51
Speaker
So yeah, I think this is this kind of churning up this ancient landscape and kind of looking at looking at it and interpreting it, I think is going to be the next project for Hawthorne. But we're also working with some friends on a ah project about Langdale Axe Factory as well, which we're hoping might secure some Arts Council funding.
00:55:08
Speaker
Manifest it, manifest it. Yes, got to get the signals going. Can people hear your band on Spotify? Are you on stuff like that? um We took most of our material off Spotify because we weren't very keen about how, you know, one of its major shareholders, Daniel Ek, is kind of investing his money in AI warfare systems and things like that. So, yeah, so it's not on Spotify, but we are on
Social Media and Closing Thanks
00:55:35
Speaker
Bandcamp.
00:55:35
Speaker
Yeah, and I'll link all that in the show notes. Right, well, this has been so good. I've been so enlightened and had my brain blown because you're a fountain of knowledge. You know a lot. I just can ramble, you know. It's great. That's what I need for a podcast.
00:55:54
Speaker
Where can we find you on the old social medias? I'm on Instagram as phil underscore Lagarde. And the band Hawthorne is also on there as Hawthorne, H-A-W-T-H-O-N-N.
00:56:09
Speaker
And I also have Beesky account, which is Larkful. Lovely. Well, thank you so very much for coming on, Phil. It's been an absolute pleasure.
00:56:20
Speaker
Oh, it's been great to chat. And, you know, hopefully we'll see each other in the flesh, maybe at the Beehive.
00:56:28
Speaker
You have been listening to the Bell Witch Podcast. Created with love and magic by me, Swales, the Friendly Green Witch. Big thank you to my lovely guest for this episode.
00:56:43
Speaker
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00:57:08
Speaker
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00:57:26
Speaker
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00:57:40
Speaker
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