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Episode 009: Elisa Watson - How a Better Understanding of Yourself Can Lead to Better Work
138 Plays7 years ago
Elisa loves studying personality and exploring the ways it impacts our lives personally, relationally, and professionally. She and a fellow personality-loving friend chat about that and other things on their podcast, SiNes of Life. She also loves to write, and (when time allows) her usual topic on her blog is life as a mom of four boys. She co-owns the drag-and-drop website company Showit with her husband Todd, who she has been married to for nearly seventeen years. They call the warm but wonderful town of Gilbert, AZ home.
For the show notes, go to https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-elisa-watson-episode-9/
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Transcript
Are sensors more common and how does this affect marketing strategies?
00:00:07
Speaker
With sensing and intuition, 70% of people are sensors and only 30% are intuitive. And this is interesting because if you think about marketing, most marketing is really geared towards pointing towards the future and wanting to help people think outside of the box. But when you recognize that 70% of a population are sensors, that means there's a majority of people who
00:00:32
Speaker
are kind of comfortable with the way things are and the way things have been or are maybe a little bit resistant to change.
Introduction to Brands at Book Show with Elisa Watson
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative businesses find more clients and build their brands. I'm your host, Davey Jones, and today we're chatting with Elisa Watson. She is the co-founder of the drag and drop website building platform Show It, and she's also a personality expert. Today she's chatting with us about the various personality types and how having an understanding of your personality can lead to better relationships. So let's get started. All right.
00:01:07
Speaker
Cool. All right. So to give people a little bit of background, I met Elisa at a giant retreat. And Giant puts on these, I don't even know how to explain it. How would I explain this? Leadership training retreats.
00:01:24
Speaker
Yeah, they do a leadership training program and it lasts over the course of a year and there's four retreats. And so when you go, you get put in different groups. And so me and you, we were put in a group together and that's when I met you for the first time and was able to get to know you through the course of the year.
00:01:42
Speaker
And one thing I noticed really quickly was that you were always so slow to speak. But every time you did speak, you were super articulate.
Elisa's expertise in personality and its impact on relationships
00:01:55
Speaker
And I always admired that about you. And I think that anybody who's been to a show at United in the last two years, you've given an opening talk. And I think that's something that other people realize right away is, oh, wow.
00:02:12
Speaker
Everything, even that talk, it's not super long, but it's jam-packed of just good stuff. And even beyond that,
00:02:23
Speaker
especially around personalities and personality tests and learning about oneself, you always seem to be able to take it that much deeper. So I'm excited to talk to you about all the different personality tests out there and pick your brain about a couple things. I've always been bad about trying to make that kind of stuff practical in my life. So I'm excited to explore some of that stuff with you.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for that intro. I'm really excited to be here and to talk about it. Yeah. So, um, you are a co-owner show it and you do a lot of this kind of stuff with, uh, the show it team, right? So kind of on, um, uh, maybe a monthly or quarterly basis, you meet with them and you kind of talk over, uh, you know, personality types and stuff. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think that personally, the personality stuff,
00:03:17
Speaker
I enjoy it most in terms of how it applies to relationships. So I think it has a lot of value for husbands and wives to know, for parents to know about their kids. But that definitely translates to the workplace also. I think it has a lot of application in our office interactions and relationships. And then even in terms of how people think about their job and their role and how that kind of fits into the bigger picture of a company.
00:03:46
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think it has a lot of application.
Origins of Elisa's interest in personality types
00:03:48
Speaker
How did you become interested in general? Because I feel like, I mean, it's always interesting to learn a little bit about yourself. And I always enjoy going and taking the personality types. But you always seem to be able to take it deeper. Whatever we were learning at Giant, you understood, I think, the different nuances between the different personality types. Yeah. Well, my parents have always really enjoyed
00:04:16
Speaker
these kinds of conversations and this topic. And I remember when I was in sixth grade, I took a Myers Briggs personality test at school. They had us all do it just kind of for fun. And that was the first time I'd ever heard about it. But when I brought my results home, my parents right away knew what I was talking about, and they both knew their personality type. And so over the years, we kind of would occasionally have conversations about this. And so it had always sort of been on the periphery for me, like something I was familiar or, you know, sort of,
00:04:45
Speaker
vaguely familiar with for a long time. And then in the months leading up to going to giant for the first time, Todd, my husband and I had been talking about that a little bit more and seeing the value possibly and sharing it with our team and kind of exploring it in the workplace too. So at that point I started studying it more in depth, but I feel like I've sort of grown up around conversations.
00:05:08
Speaker
about personality and self-assessment. And my sister's always been very knowledgeable about this stuff too, so we've had a lot of fun conversations. And I have a good friend who I actually do a podcast with, and we talk a lot about personality on there. It's always been sort of a hobby of hers too. So I've just been around it. I've always enjoyed it.
00:05:26
Speaker
Yeah, and we'll definitely link to that podcast in the show notes.
Challenges in self-assessment and the role of personality tools
00:05:30
Speaker
And a large part of that podcast is talking about personality types, signs of life, S-I-N-E-S, S-I-G-N-S. And we'll go into why here in a second. So what are the kinds of things that you do with the Show It team to help them work better together and relate better? Yeah, yeah.
00:05:55
Speaker
The fact of the matter is most people struggle when it comes to self-assessment. It's not something that comes super easily or naturally for most people. And so I think that one of the most valuable things about these personality tools is that it gives you sort of a framework for how to self-assess. And I think that's so important in terms of being successful. And so with a team,
00:06:25
Speaker
We've just kind of taken the Myers-Briggs mostly. We haven't talked about the other personality tests over in that context. But with Myers-Briggs, we've sort of looked at each piece of personality and what that means and what that looks like. And recently, we've been breaking into groups and having conversations about what it means to be an introvert, what it means to be an extrovert, and kind of having conversations with each other and helping each other understand what that looks like.
00:06:52
Speaker
We've had a few conversations over the years or over the months about, you know, how that can apply these concepts even to marketing mindsets and things like that too. But yeah, like you said, once a month. These days we're getting together and just kind of looking at a different piece of that.
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome.
The accuracy of personality tests and their impact on relationships
00:07:10
Speaker
So speaking of self-awareness and self-reporting, even with a personality test, one thing that I really struggle with is I think I project what I would rather be like, you know, so you get the scope, you know, on any given test, like, you know, I guess, which one do you relate to the best or which one describes you the best? You know, and I would love to be the early riser, you know, quick to work, you know, that sort of guy.
00:07:36
Speaker
And so sometimes I find myself a little bit, uh, you know, maybe almost cheating, like just projecting like, Hey, I wish I was this person. So I still have one. Yeah. Do you have any tips on like completing those kinds of tests? Uh, you know, more accurately, one thing, um, that I had, uh, Krista do actually is I had her take the test for me, right? We, you know, we do this occasionally if we're, we're into a couple of different ones, like, you know, the 16 personalities, one for Myers-Brigg, and then, um,
00:08:03
Speaker
There's a there's a couple other such as strength finders and so I've had her complete those for me before and it's interesting to see What results she gets completing it for me versus the results that I get for myself. Oh, yeah, have they been different?
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, so for Myers-Briggs, for instance, and I love to spend some time talking about the letters and the distinction between them with you, but I'm an ENFJ. When I take the test, I'm an ENFJ. When I take the test, or when she takes the test for me, I'm an ENFP. She is an ISTJ, and I 100% believe that. So the discrepancy is between the J and the P. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:46
Speaker
And, uh, I think maybe standing next to her, I'm definitely a P. Um, but, uh, you know, I think if you were to ask like my friends, like when I was in college and I was living with a bunch of other guys, I definitely behaved like a J for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, what you're describing about projecting who you want to be when you're taking the test or even having different results, depending on when you take it or who's taking it is really, really common.
00:09:14
Speaker
And speaking to what you just mentioned, the fact that she sees you as a P and you test as a J, which we can talk more about in a minute here. But anytime you're comparing yourself against somebody who's really strong in one of those letters, it can be easy to think, well, I'm not that strong, so I must be the opposite type. It's a continuum. So you may fall very close to the middle where she may fall much further to one side.
00:09:42
Speaker
but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're actually on the other side. And in terms of projecting, I think going back to that idea that self-assessment is hard, I think these tests really are most useful if you actually spend some time thinking about them and exploring what they mean, because just taking a test and moving on, you're gonna, that's not really getting into it deeply enough to understand what it all means, but I think the more you explore these ideas and the more you understand about them,
00:10:13
Speaker
accurately you can test and so a lot of people will test one way in the beginning and then as they start to study it and learn a little bit more about it they'll go back and take a closer look at all of those letters and realize where maybe one or two of them were off but that's kind of a process and sometimes it's a or often it can be a really humbling process because like you said you have a certain way that you would like to be but that doesn't necessarily reflect what your natural tendencies are.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I think through that process, I mean, it can be humbling at times, but it also can be, I think relieving, you know, just to realize, okay, maybe this is why I act this way, you know, for better or worse. And I do that for, Christo is able to join us for the last two retreats, sort of.
00:10:57
Speaker
She wasn't there for all four of them. My one regret there was that we didn't get her signed up to go through that together because I think those last two where she was starting to process this stuff too and we could talk about it made a huge difference in our marriage and we made some adjustments to how we work together. But before we get too far into that, I'd love to spend some time here on the Myers-Briggs test.
00:11:20
Speaker
And I know there's a ton other out there, and I do want to talk to about a couple other fun ones with you as well. But can you give us just an overview of the Myers-Brigg test and kind of like what the potential results could be?
Understanding Myers-Briggs personality types
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, sure. And if anyone's looking for a good one to take, online tests aren't always the most accurate, and yet the 16personalities.com, which is the one that you just mentioned a minute ago, is a pretty good one.
00:11:51
Speaker
So that's a good starting place if someone hasn't ever heard of this before and is interested in finding out what their type might be. And I feel like they have a lot of information too around what the results are too. Right, right. Yeah, so that's a pretty good starting point. Yeah, so with Myers-Briggs, when you take that test, your results will come back with a four-letter kind of code for who you are.
00:12:14
Speaker
Actually, at 16personalities.com, they tack on a fifth letter at the end. They're the only ones that do that, and you don't really have to worry too much about that fifth letter. The four letters are the ones that are significant here. And the first letter will come back as either an I or an E, which is for introversion or extroversion. And those words are really familiar to people, I think, right now. However, what they mean may be less so. I think
00:12:42
Speaker
there's sort of this general idea that introversion has to do with not really liking people or being social where extroversion has to do with always wanting to be sociable. And what it really comes down to isn't about being a people person or not, but where you're deriving your energy from. So an introvert and an extrovert can go to the same event or party and enjoy it just as much.
00:13:06
Speaker
But that event or party is going to be draining the battery of the introvert where it's going to be filling out the battery of the extrovert. So when it's done, somebody who's introverted is going to want to go home and decompress and have some alone time where the extrovert is going to be looking for the after party. So both people can enjoy social interactions, possibly just as much as each other. But while it's filling one up, it's draining the other. So introverts get their energy from being alone and extroverts get their energy from being with others.
00:13:35
Speaker
So where do you score on that ERI? I'm an introvert, although I do fall a little closer to the middle on it, but definitely an introvert. Yeah. And it's a 16 personalities. I remember correctly. They give you like a percentage, you know, from, from zero to a hundred essentially of where you fall within that letter. And I think that's super helpful too. I think we're not there yet, but Christa's like a hundred percent Jay. Talk about that. Yeah.
00:14:01
Speaker
Yeah. And, and extra, I mean, even things like this, I mean, uh, getting ready for this interview today. And I was just telling you, it's kind of, um, you know, rainy weather. Like I said, the, the kind of weather where you just want to curl up on the couch all day. Um, but Krista was like, you know, you're going to, you're going to get into those interviews and you're going to immediately, you know, find some energy. And so I definitely think that, uh, E is the, is the right letter, um, for me. So there, I don't think there's any, any confusion there with, uh, not
00:14:30
Speaker
Well, and this has some ramifications in the workplace in terms of those workplace interactions because extroverts tend to be verbal processors and are pretty comfortable talking through their ideas even before they're entirely sure of themselves where introverts prefer to work through everything in their own heads before piping up. And so when you have like group meetings and things like that,
00:14:54
Speaker
You may see a tendency for extroverts to kind of dominate the conversation, and that's a good thing to be aware of in those settings is to maybe provide the opportunity for introverts to speak first or to even allow some silences here and there and create that opportunity. For you and Todd, Todd's an E, right? Yes.
00:15:11
Speaker
Okay, so I don't know if you guys find this, but it's definitely true of me and Krista. And I tend to be more of the dreamer of the two of us. And so I'll just kind of spit things out. And like you said, part of it is just processing, you know, part of it's just, I know a lot of it terror probably just sounds like nonsense, but part of it is just processing and that's gonna be overwhelming for her. Because she's thinking like, oh, when he says, like when he comes up with an idea, she immediately takes it as me pitching it.
00:15:41
Speaker
Whereas I might not be like necessarily pitching it, I'm just talking through it. And a lot of times, by the time I get through it,
00:15:49
Speaker
you know, I've realized this is, this is a ridiculous idea. We're never ever going to do this. So that was it. I mean, that was eyeopening for us, just that she needs to sometimes let me, um, you know, talk through the idea completely. Um, and, uh, uh, likewise for her, you know, letting, like you said, letting her get a word in, uh, about that stuff. Yeah. Do you find that with Todd at all?
00:16:15
Speaker
Um, oh yes. And actually, as we talked through each of these letters, he and I are opposite on every one of them. So we're able to really kind of speak to both sides of all of these. Um, when it comes to the introversion extroversion, he and I both test a little closer to the middle. Uh, so he's less extroverted than some and I'm less introverted than some. So we're, we're opposites on that one, but not actually too far apart in terms of our styles. But yes, we do have that same, that same experience for sure.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah. And I actually, when I met Todd for the first time, thought he was an eye. Um, and really, you know, I got to know him through this, the same giant program that I got to know you at. Um, but again, I think that just speaks to, you know, both of you in, uh, in purposefulness of speaking, you know, like you guys really, I feel like think through the things that you say. Uh, and I could probably take a lesson, uh, in that case, so, but anyways, moving on to, uh, the next set of letters. Yeah. Yeah. So the next two are either going to be an S or an N.
Perception: Sensing vs. Intuition
00:17:14
Speaker
S is for sensing, and N is for intuition. The I was taken with introversion, so it's intuition, that's the N. And that has to do, it's referred to as our perceiving function, and it has to do with how you take information in. And so sensors take information in through their five senses, and intuitives take information in, of course, through their senses also, but there's also sort of an element of a gut instinct that intuitives are using also.
00:17:43
Speaker
Sensors are looking at what things are, and intuitives are looking at things and thinking about what could be. Sensors tend to focus a little more on where we've come from and place value on systems that are already in place, things that are already working, and intuitives are trying to think a little more outside of the box and move us forward. There's a little more innovation coming from intuitives, and there's a little more of holding onto tradition coming from sensors.
00:18:13
Speaker
And so how does that play out in, uh, in the workspace? Yeah. So this is an interesting one because there's a discrepancy, um, a percentage discrepancy on this one with the others. Um, the population is divided pretty evenly. Like, uh, introverts and extroverts are about 50 50 in a population, uh, with sensing and intuition, 70% of people are sensors and only 30% are intuitive.
00:18:39
Speaker
And this is interesting because if you think about marketing, most marketing is really geared towards pointing towards the future and wanting to help people think outside of the box. But when you recognize that 70% of the population are sensors. That means there's a majority of people who are kind of comfortable with the way things are and for the way things have been or are maybe a little bit resistant to change.
00:19:03
Speaker
And so that comes, I mean, certainly there's the element of the interpersonal relationships in the workplace also, but I think this one is really interesting when it comes to thinking about branding and marketing, because you have to think about how it's going to reflect who you are, but then also the audience that you're trying to appeal to and recognizing that sometimes as marketers with a product, you have to be helping people
00:19:29
Speaker
Willing to embrace that kind of change and not force it or make it feel scary, you know Yeah, do you find in the in the show at office specifically that there's like what's the is the breakdown about 7030? Do you find that there's more?
00:19:45
Speaker
Sensors then there are intuitives just I'm just thinking of like the like what the jobs that they're I mean the programming And I and I feel like Krista has that Similar mind, you know, she's definitely an S for sure. So how does that look in the showed office?
00:20:02
Speaker
Well, strangely, we actually just were looking at the statistic a couple of weeks ago and we're flipped in the show at office. We have a higher percentage of intuitives in the office than censors, but that's really unusual. And we were kind of debating why that may be. I mean, it's possible that there are people in our office who have mistight and are actually S's. That's possible. It's also possible that it's the industry that we're in and it's drawn people who love technology and are excited about, you know,
00:20:31
Speaker
where the software is headed, you know, that we may be attracting people that are kind of out of the box thinkers. So yeah, it's, it's flips in our office. And I think you may see that in different industries also, but in the population at large, it's, it's, uh, I would think, uh, just having a bunch of programmers, you know, um, and is it, is there, is there a discrepancy, um, between, uh, male, female as far as the breakdown?
Decision-making: Thinking vs. Feeling
00:20:57
Speaker
Not on this one. Not on this one. Yeah. Yeah. The next one there is. Yes.
00:21:01
Speaker
What about money? I would think that somebody who's managing money is more of an S instead of an N.
00:21:13
Speaker
The gal who takes care of that for us at Show It is also an ISTJ, like your wife. Yeah. And Krista takes care of it. I think that's the perfect personality to be looking at budgets and things like that. Yeah, because I'm getting sold on the marketing that's being put in front of me all the time. I have Krista to reel me in. Yeah. Well, that's a great example of how to balance because you've got
00:21:37
Speaker
You know, in your case, you have you that are, you know, you're excited about possibilities and sort of moving forward. And she's the one who's wisely pulling the reins in at times, you know, and you see that in a company also. I mean, you really need both. You need the out of the box thinkers and the ones who are making sure that everything's, you know, wise. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So moving on to the next letters. So we have, uh,
00:22:02
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:23:07
Speaker
You can even save 10% on an annual subscription by using the code BTBShow. For more information, check out the show notes. And now back to our episode. Yeah, for sure. So moving on to the next letters. So we have E versus I, S versus N. Now we have F versus T. That's right. And this is feeling versus thinking. And I don't like those words, because it feels like it feels like for a feeler.
00:23:38
Speaker
If you're not a thinker, that makes it sound like you're not a thinker. That's not, it doesn't mean that feelers aren't capable of thinking, but feeling and thinking is called our judging function and it has to do with how you make decisions. And so it, it really in a nutshell comes down to an ability to detach or not. And so a thinker can hold ideas off to the side of them and people can shoot holes in that idea.
00:24:06
Speaker
And it doesn't impact them personally because that idea is held safely out to the side. So if you don't like their idea, it doesn't reflect poorly on them. It doesn't mean you don't like them. It just means you don't like the idea. And they're able to look objectively at that idea and decide whether or not to salvage it or to ditch it and move on. And so thinkers are able to detach in terms of their own, like how things reflect on them personally. And they're also able to detach in terms of
00:24:35
Speaker
how things are going to affect others. Not that they don't take that into consideration, but their thought process is more logical, based more on data and statistics and logic. And so they're able to look at things a little more objectively. Meanwhile, feelers are much less detached. That's more of a difficulty for feelers. And so where the thinker has that idea safely out to the side of them, feelers hold it right in front of their heart. And so if you attack a feeler's idea,
00:25:05
Speaker
it feels to them as though you're attacking them, because they attach their ideas to their identity. And so in terms of how things reflect themselves, they are not detached. They're attached. And in terms of how things affect other people also, they may very well be logical in their thought processes also, but they are taking into account how other people are going to feel about a decision, how it's going to impact other people.
00:25:33
Speaker
they're much more aware of the personal impacts, um, where thinkers are focused more on whether something actually makes sense. So where do you fall on the last two? Um, so I'm not wanting to feel her and
00:25:49
Speaker
That was a harder one. Like I would like to be a thinker. Me too. Because I think again, that sums what you were saying about feelers holding ideas close to their heart. Definitely sums me up, I think. I would love to be able to take things less personally. Right. And I've grown in that. I can stay detached for much longer now than I used to be able to, but there always comes a point in any conversation that feels
00:26:18
Speaker
you know, touchy in some way where I start to take things personally. And I try not to, but it's, it's hard. Yeah. I mean, I think it's definitely harder. I think I probably score pretty high as far as a feeler goes. Yeah. And I always, you know, sometimes I lament that too depressed, you know, I wish that, I wish that, uh, nurture, you know, a lot of this is nature versus nurture. Um, you know, I wish I could nurture that, uh, that T a little bit.
00:26:46
Speaker
So I feel that too. And you know, one way that people talk about all of these dichotomies, they're called the two letters in each category, is comparing it to being right handed or left handed. And actually, I'm glad you just said nurture versus nature, because the theory behind Myers-Briggs is that this is part of our nature. We're born with it just as we're born to be right handed or left handed. But our nurture affects quite a bit.
00:27:13
Speaker
going back to the right-handed, left-handed thing, I will always be right-handed, but I can do things to strengthen my left hand, and so it's not that I'm all right-handed all the time. I'm not all feeler all the time. I can do things to strengthen that left hand, the thinking side, but it's not going to change the fact that I am a right-handed person.
00:27:34
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And for Chris and I, I mean, that's probably one of the biggest things I think we've had to work through working together on a daily basis. I mean, also just being married, right? Because even if we didn't work together, we're going to see each other often. But again, I mean, as an extrovert and as just kind of processing ideas verbally and throwing things out there, you know, as I come across them or learn them or whatnot, or come up with them.
00:27:59
Speaker
again, Krista is kind of, she'll start asking me questions about them, you know, and she's not, she's just trying to almost, she's vetting the idea, essentially, you know, she's wondering, okay, is this a, is this something we can actually implement or not? And I'll take that as, you know, a personal attack, like what, you know, and part of it, again, it's just that distinction between her needing to give me a little bit of time to process that stuff verbally, before piling on
00:28:27
Speaker
a million different questions about whether that's a good idea or not. So that's been something that we've had to work through. So where do you fall on S versus N? Oh, I'm an S. OK, so ISF. F. OK, so ISF so far. And then I am ENF so far. I think if there is one letter, though, that I wish I could change, it would be that one.
00:28:56
Speaker
You know, I don't I feel like I don't care as much about the other letters that I wish that I could switch a little bit. Yeah. Oh well Again, is there a you know in the office is there? What's the breakdown look like and and how do you what are some of the ramifications for you know? Working with others who are the opposite of you. Yeah. Yeah Again in our office. It's our the statistics are a little surprising We have a higher number of F's than I would anticipate especially
00:29:26
Speaker
You had asked about gender breakdown, and on this one, thinking versus feeling, the population at large is divided 50-50, but 70% of women are feelers and only 30% are thinkers, and then it's switched for men. 70% of men are thinkers and 30% are feelers. And so we have a higher percentage of men in the show at office, and so it's kind of surprising that we have a higher percentage of feelers also.
00:29:53
Speaker
And I'm not really sure why that is. I would assume it'd have to at least a little bit to do with the industry. You know, I mean, I think the industry is predominantly women, you know, it would make sense for, you know, a company like show it that does really well and serves that community really well to be more in jive, I guess. Yeah, you know, we're like, even if you look at our support team, I mean, they have to,
00:30:19
Speaker
understand all the technology and stuff and yet there are also a lot of it that the majority of support is interpersonal and they're interacting with people all day every day and that that F is able to sort of help create connections.
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm sure that's a huge strength, uh, you know, for the, for the team or to a certain extent, also maybe hard for us. I mean, I could imagine it also being a little hard for sport too, you know, taking ideas personally and things like that, especially when you, if you have a frustrated, uh, if you have a frustrated client or customer, but, uh, moving on to now J versus P. Yeah. So figure out what you are.
00:30:58
Speaker
Yeah, so I am um, like I said, I I think I mean I test as a jay I chris is still to this day swears that i'm of a p I'm not quite as organized as her but like, you know, if if it were up to me, uh to clean the house, you know, I would do that Once a week probably whereas krista wants to krista, you know before we had a rimbo which is the greatest
00:31:22
Speaker
I mean, it's the greatest invention of all time because Chris and we have dogs too. So she would vacuum every single day. We don't have to do that because we have the Roomba. But, you know, like, I'm just happy like vacuuming once or twice a week, you know, but she would want to vacuum every single day. You know, like I kind of know where everything is on my desk here, but it's not as necessarily clean, you know, as as her desk is. Yeah.
00:31:50
Speaker
Uh, well, and so you're talking about your physical environment, which is a big part of this J versus P thing. And it's the way that it's most apparent. Uh, so J and P stem from judging and perceiving, and it has to do with how we order our worlds, whether or not we like things to be decided and structured or whether we like things to be open. Um, and there's more adaptability coming from P's and more structure coming from J's.
00:32:17
Speaker
And so we see that most in our environments. And so what you're describing about Krista loving for things to be tidy and clean, and I can super resonate with that, except I have four boys getting harder and harder to keep things clean. But there's also an element of scheduling too. And so for some J's, they can let some things go in their environment as long as they kind of know what to expect in their days. Like if their day is scheduled,
Structure preferences: Judging vs. Perceiving
00:32:48
Speaker
then maybe they're okay with a little clutter in their environment. And for P's, they may have a clean home but they really want to stay adaptable in their schedules and reserve the right or the ability to be spontaneous. And so you'll see that both in scheduling and in environment and it may show more in one way or the other. Is there any gender difference here? No, this is 50-50 across the board.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, and so again, I think maybe it has to do with my environment too. You know, in college, I was definitely,
00:33:25
Speaker
the J of the group, you know, the house being crazy drove me nuts. I would have a schedule every day, you know, in terms of like when I did my studying, when I did it, and when I was at class and so on and so forth. And then, you know, living with Krista, maybe, you know, I think part of it is just because I know, you know, she's going to do certain things. And so maybe I personally let some of those things go.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah, so that could be that could be it as well. But I do think I am pretty I'm pretty I stand firm against you know, Krista when she when she argues that I'm actually But it's probably close. You know, I'm probably yeah, I probably test, you know pretty close to the middle there Well, and I would say on this on this one I don't have a statistic to back back this up but it's my opinion that this one we're kind of
00:34:15
Speaker
we see more changes with this one maybe than with any of the others because like some people have a job that requires one or the other of them. Like maybe somebody is very much a P, but they work at a job that requires them to be very structured. And so they're operating as a J from nine to five every day, or maybe they're a J, but they have a job that's kind of always keeping them on their toes. And so they're operating as a P from nine to five. And I think if you see business partners working together or in the case of
00:34:44
Speaker
husband and wife, um, like what you just said, if you have two J's, one may relax a little bit to, to take sort of more of the spontaneous role. Or if you have two P's, one may become more structured because they realize that somebody has to be to keep life running smoothly. Um, and so I think a lot of people spend a lot of time behaving maybe slightly out of their type on this one for one reason or another.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, and that makes total sense. And I think when we were going through that program together, there were a couple business partners there. And, you know, one, it seemed like all the time would be act, even if there were two P's, let's say, one would be acting as the J just to keep this, you know, running and successful and moving forward. Really makes sense. So each of these four letters, so like for 16 personalities, for instance, will spit out like,
00:35:37
Speaker
The campaign or the protagonist and I think that's is that made up by 16 personalities? Yeah Every website every book who does these they all come up with their own names Yeah, and then they can't kind of give you the general gist of that specific Personality type and so we don't have time to talk about every single combination of each but just to review so you were I s f j That's right
00:36:04
Speaker
Okay, cool. And what's Todd just out of UNCP?
00:36:08
Speaker
ENTP. So across the board, opposite. Opposites, yep. Pretty much the same for Krista and I. Krista being an ISTJ. Jay is the only similarity, even though it's contested. So is there anything in particular that's come up in the show at office, like ramifications of working through this kind of stuff together? Yeah.
00:36:38
Speaker
I know for a fact because I've had conversations, like one-on-one conversations with a few people where I know that this has been beneficial in terms of understanding coworkers and kind of creating some smoothness in communication and even just understanding why they're so different in the way that they operate or the way they make decisions and think through things.
Improving relationships with Myers-Briggs insights
00:37:02
Speaker
And so I know that there's at least been some relational benefit to this.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's huge actually going through this stuff because we can make assumptions about, you know, one another and that was one of the rules while we were at this leadership program was don't assume somebody else's personality type because you're often wrong, you know, and but actually sitting down and working through this stuff together.
00:37:27
Speaker
I think it opens you up to other people. And so other people can see more clearly both blind spots for themselves, but then also how they need to communicate or interact with people around them. And for many people listening, they're probably not working within a team as big as show it. But I know personally, just for Chris and I, and I think even regardless of whether we were working together full time as a husband wife team, that would have been
00:37:55
Speaker
you know, we would have benefited just from doing this for our own marriage. Oh yeah.
00:38:02
Speaker
So what are some other, I mean, there's a million other tests out there. First of all, you know, I guess which ones are researched back, which ones are not? Because I have friends who are into the aninium gram. Okay, yeah, and I can never pronounce it. So I'm gonna try to pronounce it again during the show. But, you know, for instance, that one, you know, like which one's out there?
00:38:29
Speaker
actually have some research, you know, kind of backing up, you know, their testing methods and results and so on. Right.
Exploring Enneagram and its practical applications
00:38:37
Speaker
Are there other ones? Yeah, and I mean, I think that's kind of a debated concept out there, because I saw an article recently from a psychologist who was saying that Myers Briggs just has no substantial psychological backing for it. But then you can read plenty of other things that will cite many studies. And I mean, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so I don't
00:38:59
Speaker
You know, I'm not sure how they would describe one study over another as having more validity or not. But most people out there who are supporters of one of these methods for typing personality will say that they've got plenty of research to support it. And other people will say that it's garbage. The Enneagram, for instance, has been around for at least a couple thousand years.
00:39:25
Speaker
And so it has a lot of history to it and a lot of anecdotal support, but I don't think it has a whole lot of research behind it, even though it's been around so long. Same with the forced temperaments. That goes back to, what was it, the fifth century BC? Hippocrates was the one, the sanguine, caleric, phlegmatic, those four temperaments. So they've been around a really long time.
00:39:51
Speaker
But uh, that's something that you become that specific one is something you've become interested in recently, right? Um the four temperaments. Yep I I actually haven't spent a lot of time looking at that one. I mean it's a little more basic I would say and um And it's I've sort of been vaguely aware of it all along but I haven't spent a whole lot of time looking at it I think that strength finders book um and the strength finders uh program
00:40:17
Speaker
They definitely have a lot of research and statistics, again, maybe not psychological, but at least in terms of polling people and observing people. And they've got a lot of statistics backing the work that they're doing.
00:40:30
Speaker
And I feel like for that test, specifically, a lot of companies out there do that and provide that test for their employees. I know that Krista, when she first got out of college, she's working for a nonprofit, a big nonprofit, and they had everybody take the strength finders and go through that. And so that's something that she's had me go through since. So which ones are your favorite? Well, Maya's Rings for sure.
00:40:55
Speaker
I like it because I feel like it explains a lot about who we are and how we operate, but still leaves lots of room for nuance. I mean, you can, some try to get very much more specific and some try to stay much more vague. I feel like Meyers Briggs is specific enough to be useful without being so specific as to be confining. So you can have, you know, I'm an ISFJ,
00:41:23
Speaker
you can have another ISFJ who's maybe a little more melancholy or, you know, like, cause those are certain things that other tests might try to add in as further identifiers, but Myers Briggs sort of leaves room for those kinds of nuances within each personality type. Um, so that's, that's why I like it. And also the theory that it can't, that it doesn't change, that it's part of how you're wired. I agree with that theory, uh, that we're, we're born with not as blank slates, but wired to be a particular way.
00:41:52
Speaker
So Myers-Briggs is for sure my favorite. I have enjoyed reading about the Enneagram recently. And there's different opinions about the Enneagram in terms of whether it pairs well with Myers-Briggs or not. I happen to think it's a useful supplement to Myers-Briggs. For instance, my son, my oldest son, who's 13, is a very different personality type for me in terms of Myers-Briggs. He's an INTP.
00:42:20
Speaker
But I suspect that he and I are the same number on the Enneagram, which to me explains why he and I are similar in a lot of ways, even though our personalities are actually quite different. So I think it's useful for that. Can take this test online? There's somewhere that people can take the Enneagram. Did I say that right? Yeah, I think I might have sent you a link to one of them. I don't feel like there are any like excellent online Enneagram tests at this point.
00:42:49
Speaker
It's probably a little more helpful to just read about each of them and sort of self-assess, but that one that I sent you is a pretty decent one. All right. So I'll include, I'll go information about that for sure in the show notes so people can get to that. And with that test, right, there's a, there's a main number and then there's like a wing or something like that. Yeah. So you have your, there's nine numbers. You have your main number and then.
00:43:15
Speaker
they're written out in a circle, one through nine. And so every number has a number on either side of it. So I'm a nine, the number on either side for me is an eight and a one. And so for every number, you lean one way or the other to sort of add some depth to, so like as a nine, I don't lean towards the eight, I lean towards the one.
00:43:41
Speaker
but then you also have other numbers that you go to in stress and other numbers that you go to in health and it starts to get, um, you know, if you're not, if you're not paying close attention. So you hadn't mentioned, uh, that the, you got you and your son, you share, um, different personality types, but you probably share the same number on the Enneagram. So how has that helped you, um, maybe relate better to your son or understand him a little bit more?
00:44:08
Speaker
Yeah, well, so I said that he's an INTP, and INTPs are known for being much more introverted than some. They tend to be the most introverted of the introverts. Very analytical, they're observers, they're scientists types, or that's sort of the stereotype about them. And he is analytical, he is all of those things,
00:44:37
Speaker
But he also has a very good sense for how other people are feeling. He's very compassionate. And INTPs aren't necessarily always the most relational of the personality types. And I wouldn't say that he's super duper relational, but he definitely just has a lot of empathy. And I'm a nine on Enneagram, which is a peacemaker. And if he's a nine also, which I think that he is, that would kind of make sense that as
00:45:05
Speaker
as a peacemaker, as a nine on the Enneagram, he would sort of use that analytical side to be observing people and wanting to create peace between people. So his, his analysis of things, his logic isn't necessarily geared towards, you know, scientific things or projects like that, but maybe geared a little more towards people.
00:45:31
Speaker
And that's interesting because I think, again, just talking about how some of these other tests can round out the Myers-Brigg test, for instance, like that might be an insight that you skip over or don't realize just going off of the Myers-Brigg test where, you know, the stereotype for his personality is more of a scientific, which when you describe that personality type, it doesn't exactly scream empathy.
00:45:54
Speaker
you know but it turns out he has you know a ton of it so as far as personality types go and maybe it's because Myers Briggs is just everywhere you know it just seems like one of those things that's been developed.
00:46:09
Speaker
at least in modern times and with modern research and so on and so forth. If you started there and you really wanted to learn a little bit more about yourself and whatever practical implications are, which personality test would you recommend? After taking Myers-Briggs? Yup. Probably StrengthBinders or Enneagram. Okay. And what about chronotypes?
00:46:40
Speaker
Well, that was new for me. I've just came across it recently. And I think it's really interesting, but I don't have a whole lot of insight to add to it. But yeah, chronotypes has to do, I mean, chrono, that's time. It has to do with when you're at your best and when you're at your worst. And there's a fun quiz online called the power of one quiz.
00:47:00
Speaker
And it lets you know what your sleep schedule is like, whether you're someone who is up early in the morning, raring to go or somebody who likes to stay up late and get things done into the wee hours or somebody who needs a lot of sleep or has fit full sleep. So it starts with how you sleep and then kind of builds out a schedule of your day based on what your sleep style is like. So the best times of day to have coffee or the best times of day to schedule meetings or the best times of day to exercise based on what your chronotype is.
00:47:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that stuff especially has been fascinating. Learning about my personality and Chris's personality and how to work together was a huge eye opener. But lately, we've been talking a little bit more about that. Daniel Pink wrote a great book that's fairly new called When the Science of Time. I think that's the subtitle. I'll link to it in the show notes. But he talks a little bit about chronotypes. And he talks about it in terms of being a lark or an owl.
00:48:01
Speaker
He has a test that he links to and it's a little bit different. I like the one that you link to because I feel like maybe it's a little bit more developed and you get like each result is named after an animal, which I thought was super fun. But I think it's just eye-opening in terms of actually scheduling your day.
00:48:23
Speaker
And for somebody who runs their own business, so if you're working for yourself, I think it'd be especially valuable because you can set up your day so that when you're most productive is when you're doing your biggest and hardest tasks for the day. So I found that one super interesting in particular, especially for somebody who runs their own business and sets their own schedule. Yes, absolutely.
00:48:53
Speaker
Do you remember your result for that one? I am lying. And what is it? Do you, do you remember like kind of the background around being a lion? Well, so in terms of the sleep schedule, it is one who tends to be up earlier in the morning. Um, and then gives the bed a little bit earlier at night, which is accurate. Now he was, uh, sharing that the guy who developed that, that quiz and that book, he was sharing some observations as a sleep therapist that he had gained from
00:49:23
Speaker
talking to sleep patients over the years. And for people who are lions, they also have a tendency to be sort of type A, go getter types. And the way he described it was in extreme enough terms that I didn't feel like I really fell into that category. And yet the way he broke down the daily schedule, I definitely related to as I looked at where he had placed things in the day for lion
00:49:51
Speaker
lion types, it all definitely made sense. And so the way he extrapolated personality from that didn't strike quite as close to home for me, but the actual scheduling component of it did.
Chronotypes and productivity
00:50:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think the same was pretty much true of me. I think I identified more, less with kind of the anecdotal stuff that he included around the results and more with the daily schedule and when to, you know, when's best. I even came across an article and my result was a bear.
00:50:23
Speaker
he had put together for the person who was writing this article, who was also a bear, an ideal schedule for her. So it was interesting reading through that article and seeing what he recommended, the activities that you do at certain times during the day. And that was something that I really identified with. But I think that
00:50:40
Speaker
What's interesting about going down the rabbit hole of personality types is even as you come across maybe something like the Enneagram, which who knows how much scientific evidence necessarily research backs up the results that you see? I think there's still value in processing this stuff, just becoming a little bit more self-aware so that you can understand your own blind spots and relate to others better. Yes.
00:51:09
Speaker
There's a book about the Enneagram called The Road Back to You by Ian Crone and Suzanne Staville. And in the introduction to that, Ian Crone was saying, he was sort of defending the Enneagram against those who would say it doesn't have enough scientific backing. And he said that his concern isn't so much about whether it's all been scientifically validated, so much as whether it's useful. And he believes very strongly that it's useful. And so he wants to keep sharing about it and helping people with it.
00:51:37
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense, especially for something that's been around for as long as it's been around. If it wasn't useful, it wouldn't have stood the test of time for sure.
Five Voices framework and its enhancement to Myers-Briggs
00:51:48
Speaker
All right, so one of my favorite extensions of the Myers-Briggs test, and this was one of my favorite parts of the leadership program, and this is their language, I think, right? Giants language. It's the five voices. And the five voices are, let me see if I can remember these, pioneer, creative, connector, nurturer, and guardian.
00:52:10
Speaker
And so depending on what your personality type is, generally one of those five voices correspond with your personality type. But like I said, there's, um, and like you mentioned earlier, you know, it's like being right hand and left handed. You probably have all five voices, but a couple of them are more dominant than the others. Um, and again, just one of those, one of those things, and this is a book that you can go check out. Um, Krista being a guardian, you know, somebody that,
00:52:36
Speaker
stereotypically tends to be a little bit better with with money. Ask those questions, you know, so when I come up with ideas, she's she's gonna ask those questions and kind of vet that out before ever like really committing to it and getting before she gets excited about it. Whereas I tend to be a pioneer. And you know, for better or worse, sometimes tend to be the loudest voice in the room, you know, and kind of always pushing us forward. Yeah. So where do you where would you fall on those five voices?
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah, so I am a nurturer. That's my first one. And Guardian is second for me. And they base that around what your middle two letters are of your Myers-Briggs personality type, which as a side note is my favorite way to sort of group personality types together. There's some different theories on the best way to kind of group them together. But I think personalities that share the middle two letters tends to be the most similar to each other.
00:53:34
Speaker
Um, not always, of course, but, um, you definitely see some, some patterns there. And so generally speaking, other people with SF in the middle are nurturers like me, um, with, uh, it may depend what second, but in my case, guardian is second. So nurturing is caring for people and making sure that people in relationships are running smoothly. Guardian is making sure that systems are running smoothly.
00:53:59
Speaker
Yeah. And that makes sense that Krista then would be a guardian. She's an ST, but her second one is nurture. Um, and you know, it's funny. She, I think she's actually kind of surprised, uh, getting that, you know? Um, but it didn't surprise me at all. I mean, she's always, you know, just in different ways, um, maybe a different way than the stereotypical way of just looking out for somebody. But if somebody tells her, you know, if we're hosting somebody, she can remember things in conversations.
00:54:24
Speaker
You know years before that they mentioned and she'll account for those things whether it be like a food allergy or like oh I remember they really liked this meal, you know, I think that I would just have never remembered But yeah, so this stuff is all this stuff is all super interesting now if we wanted to learn more and explore more of this kind of stuff Where should we go?
00:54:46
Speaker
You can check out signs of life.com or signs of life on iTunes. And like you said earlier, it's S I N E S signs of life, which is sort of an inside personality joke the way we came up with that title. But we talk all about personality there and we will frequently reference other resources as well on our podcast.
00:55:10
Speaker
But yeah, my friend Jen and I, we just explore personality and the ramifications of understanding who you are and how you're wired.
00:55:18
Speaker
And something else that people should visit is ElisaJoyful.com, for sure. You also are a very talented writer. And even, and a lot of things that you write about, wouldn't necessarily be things that I am like by nature drawn to. You know, a lot of what you write about is motherhood and being, and fostering. Yeah.
00:55:40
Speaker
you know, different anecdotes there, but I really enjoy it. So I just again speaks to, I think, you know, how I think about you as a writer. So people should totally check out alisojoyful.com. And I will also link to, you know, the other places that people will be able to find you. Thanks. Thank you. All right, well, that's all.
00:56:06
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Brands That Book Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast on iTunes and leaving a review so that others are more likely to find it. For show notes and other resources, visit davianchrista.com.