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Pepper spray for all!
97 Plays3 years ago
How do we fix decades of state-sponsored, systemic anti-Muslim hate? According to Alberta's Justice Minister Kaycee Madu all we need is pepper spray. Dr. Muna Saleh and Haiqa Cheema join us to discuss the Alberta's government’s incredibly inadequate response to an epidemic of violent hate crimes against visibly Muslim women.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:21
Speaker
Now, on to the show.
00:00:37
Speaker
Friends and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host, Duncan Kinney. We're recording today here in Amiskwetchu, Wisconsin, otherwise known as Edmonton, Alberta, here in Treaty 6 territory on the banks of the Kasis-Kasau, Mississippi, or the North Saskatchewan River. Joining us today to talk about how pepper spray is the solution to decades of state-sponsored systemic racism, we are joined by Haika Chima and Dr. Mana Saleh.
00:01:03
Speaker
Haika is a progress report contributor, very proud to say, as well as a community organizer who works closely with Muslim-led organizations. And Dr. Mana Saleh is an assistant professor at Concordia University of Edmonton in the Faculty of Education and the author of Stories We Live and Grow By, retelling our experiences as Muslim mothers and daughters. Haika and Mana, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So, yeah, I mean,
00:01:31
Speaker
The reason we're here today, I kind of teased it in the intro there.
Violence Against Muslim Women in Alberta
00:01:35
Speaker
Um, but it, and I'm trying to make light of it, but it is quite serious. We are seeing, you know, an incredibly disturbing epidemic of violence against visibly Muslim women or hijabis here in Alberta, and especially here in Edmonton, you know, since, uh,
00:01:53
Speaker
In December, there have been at least a dozen reported attacks against visibly Muslim women and most of them black, most of them wearing a hijab. And I think it's worth going into a little bit of detail about what Muslim women are facing in this epidemic, but just a content warning that I am gonna describe some of these attacks before we kind of get into the discussion.
00:02:18
Speaker
But in December, here in Edmonton, a man approached two black women wearing hijabs who were sitting in their cars. He approached them, started yelling racist obscenities. He punched the passenger window, breaking it. When a woman ran from the car, he ran after her, pushed her to the ground and assaulted her.
00:02:36
Speaker
Just recently here on June 29th in St. Albert, a knife welding man uttered racial slurs and attacked two Muslim women out for a walk. This man grabbed one of the women by her hijab and pushed her to the ground where she was knocked unconscious. You know, this also comes on the heels of, you know, the incredibly tragic hate motivated killing of a Muslim family in London, Ontario.
00:03:00
Speaker
I'm not gonna get into every single incident, but are there any details or incidents that either of you wanted to highlight or talk about? So yeah, thank you again, Duncan, for inviting me.
00:03:20
Speaker
and both of us actually, I'm honored to be here with Haika. But I just wanted to begin by acknowledging that I'm on Treaty 6 territory and acknowledge how I am complicit and implicated in the ongoing settler colonialism and injustices against peoples and communities, indigenous peoples and communities specifically on these lands.
00:03:44
Speaker
And I think it's really important to situate myself always in this work as I continue to advocate for a more just world. So one of the things that I've really noticed, I think many of us have really noticed is the lack of leadership at all levels of government in these attacks. I'm talking about municipal, provincial and federal here in Alberta.
00:04:11
Speaker
What I wanted to really bring forward was that most of these attacks are against black Muslim women in specific in Hijab.
Intersecting Issues: Racism, Sexism, and Islamophobia
00:04:21
Speaker
And I think that it's really important to highlight that. And as Haika and I, we're not Black Muslim women. I'm Palestinian. I do wear hijab. However, the intersectionality of anti-Black racism, misogyny, sexism, racism, and Islamophobia, which is a form of racism, and I'll delve into that. Many people refer to it as anti-Muslim hate as well, and we'll talk about the different terms. But what I really wanted to highlight is that this is,
00:04:50
Speaker
This has been an example of systemic failure at all levels of government. And I can delve into that later, but I'm going to give Haika a chance to speak as well. I think for me, it's just basically about how terrifying these attacks have been and how violent they've gotten over years. I think for the first time in my life, I'm seeing there's no fear.
00:05:19
Speaker
to be able to go up to a Muslim woman and hit her to the ground. And then half people that are standing around do nothing. That is just so terrifying. And for me, I don't know if there is an end in sight until there's a fundamental shift in our society.
00:05:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I bring it up talking about, you know, a regional issue here in Edmonton and Calgary and Alberta. But I mean, this is nationwide, right? Like, according to the NCCM, you know, more Muslims have been killed and targeted hate attacks in Canada than in any other G7 nation over the past five years.
Systemic Roots of Anti-Muslim Hate
00:05:54
Speaker
And you're absolutely right. Like, this is a systemic issue. And it's one that I think people struggle with to be like,
00:06:04
Speaker
How do we solve something that has literally baked into how Canada works? How did anti-Muslim hate become so ingrained into the Canadian political project that we are seeing these kinds of attacks so regularly? I think we can't talk about anti-Muslim hate or Islamophobia in Canada without acknowledging that Canada is built on white supremacy.
00:06:28
Speaker
And we can't talk about anti-Muslim hate without talking about the war on terror and the years of ongoing imperialism that Canada has been part of in countries like Afghanistan or Syria or Iraq. So over the years, especially after 9-11, we saw Canada become part of all these projects abroad, which really led to dehumanization of Muslims.
00:06:56
Speaker
So this is not something that is isolated that we're seeing all of a sudden in 2021. This has been going on for decades. And Muslims all around the world know this. And we have been heavily surveilled over and over again. So I'm just going to just mention some examples. Like I remember, I know people who have been heavily surveilled because they were part of the Muslim Student Association on different universities.
00:07:24
Speaker
They've had CSIS or the RCMP knock on their doors and ask very threatening questions or ask them to step outside to just have a walk and then try to get more information about the community through them, which has been so traumatic for so many young people in our community who have really distanced themselves from the greater community work because of the heavy surveillance that resulted from
00:07:54
Speaker
being part of organizations like the Muslim Students' Association. I remember I got super involved in politics. It's because of Bill C-51. We literally tried to pass legislation that would class Canadian Muslims as second-class citizens. The thing I'm remembering is the barbaric practices line where Muslims worked
00:08:21
Speaker
genuinely labeled as barbaric and that was normalized. So Duncan, these things are not happening in silos. These things are not happening out of nowhere, just like this hate on internet. This has been part of Canada and I think we need to acknowledge that. And I'll pass it on to Mona to add on more.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. So, exactly that everything that Haika said, I am 100% in agreement with. And so I really wanted to, to also highlight something that I think many people don't know or understand or don't recognize. But this has been an issue long before 9-11. And that's another part of the ongoing state sanctioned
00:09:17
Speaker
racism, Islamophobia, that really Canada has contributed to and actually perpetuated. And so I know that in 1978, I think many of the listeners will know that Edward Said in 1978 published his landmark book Orientalism. And it really detailed how Western governments have manufactured hate against Muslims or anybody perceived to be Muslim.
00:09:48
Speaker
And then after 9-11, of course, this intensified. And then of course, as Haika mentioned, we had the so-called, and I'm sorry, I'm laughing because it's not funny, but I think for me, it's just ridiculous. I still can't believe that it happened. So it was the 2015 federal zero tolerance for barbaric cultural practices act.
00:10:13
Speaker
where you had focus targeting, although the word Muslim is not in the act, and it was never really explicitly said that Muslims were being targeted, but it was 100%
Islamophobia and Gendered Stereotypes
00:10:28
Speaker
understood. This was a major dog whistle for racists and Islamophobes, and it was being perpetuated by our federal government.
00:10:37
Speaker
And so that alone, I remember I was researching alongside Canadian Muslim mothers and daughters at the time. So that was my book. It's actually a revised version of my dissertation. And I was in the process of engaging in conversation alongside many different youth. And it was
00:10:58
Speaker
all of them had something to say about this and about how they were disgusted and they were afraid of where this was headed and how this shapes lives at a way that people don't really understand. And so one of the things that have happened since 9-11 has been these constant like task force, listening sessions, all of these things. And I recently tweeted about this. I am sick of these listening sessions at all levels of government.
00:11:26
Speaker
I refuse to take part in them anymore. How much more evidence do you need that this isn't a problem? I mean, after the Quebec mosque shootings, and especially now with the killings of the Absal and Salomon families in London, you don't need, you know, not to mention the exponential rise in hate crimes. And these are just the third that are reported, by the way. And I'm going to be citing
00:11:54
Speaker
something right now, a document that I actually gave you the link. I don't know if you in your introduction Duncan or anything like that to this podcast, if you can share this link.
00:12:05
Speaker
But it's a special report submitted to the UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion and Relief. And it was submitted on November 30, 2020. And it was submitted by the International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group, Islamic Social Services Association, and Newark Cultural Center. And it's based on research by Aziza Khadji. And what it was is this very detailed, yet succinct,
00:12:32
Speaker
exploration of Islamophobia in Canada. And so I'm just going to give you a few of the details here of what she talked about. And sorry, they talked about, but it was based on research by Kanji, that Islamophobia is defined here as an unfounded or disproportionate fear and or hatred of Islam or Muslims or those perceived to be Muslim, leading to violence and systemic discrimination. Here's there. There is an acknowledgement that Islamophobia is gendered.
00:13:02
Speaker
so it operates according to quote unquote gendered stereotypes about Muslim men as violent terrorists and patriarchs and Muslim women as subjugated victims and dangerous cultural factors end quote and also details how Islamophobia intersects with other systems of racism including of course as we see here in Edmonton anti-black racism indigenous
00:13:24
Speaker
racism, black indigenous Muslims experience the compounding effects of these different systems. And so really what I wanted to highlight though here is even as we talk about Canada and so often this multicultural liberal view of Canada as an accepting tolerant nation.
00:13:44
Speaker
I wanna highlight the public perception of Islam and Muslims at this report document. So according to this recent survey findings, and more about the survey can be found on this document, 46% of Canadians have an unfavorable view of Islam, more than any other religious tradition. Fewer than half of Canadians would find it quote unquote acceptable for one of their children to marry a Muslim, lower than that of any other religious group. 56% of Canadians believe that Islam suppresses women's rights
00:14:15
Speaker
More than half of people living in Toronto feel mainstream Muslim doctrines promote violence. 52% of Canadians feel that Muslims can only be trusted, quote unquote, a little or not all. 42% of Canadians think discrimination against Muslim is, quote unquote, mainly their fault. 47% of Canadians support banning headscarves in public. Compared with 30% of Americans,
00:14:40
Speaker
51% support government surveillance of mosques, compared to 46% of Americans. And 55% of Canadians in the problem of Islamophobia is quote unquote, overblown by politicians and media. And only 29% supported a non-binding parliamentary motion, which was M103, to condemn and study Islamophobia.
00:15:03
Speaker
And so as much as we like to believe that we are a quote, quote, quote, tolerant, liberal, multicultural nation, there is Islamophobia rooted and embedded and has been manufactured in part by the Canadian government.
00:15:20
Speaker
Well, I mean, those stats are certainly very stark and certainly play into a narrative that we kind of hit on very commonly on the progress report, which is that the Canadian state is actually far more evil and worse than you think. Um, I mean, there's so much to dive in there there. I mean, M 103 was, was really like, when I think we saw conservative politicians flip the switch, right? It'd become.
00:15:48
Speaker
just straight up progenitors and purveyors of anti-Muslim hate. And we've even seen apologies from folks who were quasi apologizing for the role they played around M103, as well as some of the legislation you brought earlier, the barbaric cultural practices tip line. We've seen MP Tim Upple, MP Michelle Rempel-Garnell,
00:16:10
Speaker
Michelle Rempel Garner, Ken Bossenkuhl, high-level conservative strategist, quasi-apologize. But when it came to Jason Kenney and apologizing for all of the stuff he did, specifically around the kneecap ban, he very pointedly refused to even acknowledge that he ever supported a kneecap ban.
00:16:33
Speaker
I mean, this headline, this CBC headline is, is hilarious, right? Alberta Premier denies supporting the kebban despite past public statements. Um, you know, and I don't want to just paint this as a conservative party of Canada thing about the criminalization and the state sponsored systemic racism against Muslims. It was perpetrated under liberal governments as well. But, um, but it is, this is Canada, right?
00:17:00
Speaker
So, Manoj, you also bring up something that's really important as well, which is like the gendered nature of this violence we see against Muslims and specifically like how men and women are gendered as, you know, either subjugated by Muslim men or as these violent brutes. And this, we've seen kind of like the weaponization of white feminism by, you know, Canada and the United States.
00:17:25
Speaker
against Muslims, right? It's like how they justified their invasion of Afghanistan, right? And I think that that's an idea that's worth exploring further. And I don't know how you want to dive into it. I mean, we could maybe start with what's happening in France and how what happened in France then percolated down to Quebec with Bill 21.
Legislation and Its Impact on Muslim Communities
00:17:47
Speaker
Yeah, I really I thank you for bringing that forward, Duncan, because I think it's important to really when we talk about white feminism,
00:17:55
Speaker
and how we see it because a lot of people will call us racist for using the word white. But it is a very quote unquote colorblind approach to feminism. And so I really highly recommend for anybody who's really struggling with understanding what white feminism entails to read Sada Ahmed's work. She really delves into this idea of
00:18:23
Speaker
feminism and what does that look like when it's intersectional. And so I'll continue when you talk about the use of white feminism in invading Afghanistan. Actually, I wrote about this in my dissertation and how Laura Bush then
00:18:44
Speaker
First Lady, I guess, Laura Bush, talked about and brought forward this idea of we need to save these oppressed Muslim women by conversely basically bombing them. And so the. Yes, and I'm sorry, again, I laugh because it's ridiculous because, oh,
00:19:09
Speaker
This fight is also a fight for Muslim women and for women in Afghanistan. And as if war and raining bombs upon a people have ever provided the solution to anything. And so it's just this weaponization of the orientalist trope of the need to save us.
00:19:35
Speaker
which has been exponentially promoted by governments. And as Haika mentioned, imperialism, of course, and the media. Media is extremely complicit in this as well. And so when we talk about media, it's typically whenever you have any kind of article, it's gotten a little bit better, but it's still very much there of, you know, oh, Muslim women or Muslims. And you have this typically this image of this poor forsaken
00:20:05
Speaker
Muslim woman in a burqa niqab or hijab who looks just desolate as if we don't also have you know awful moments in our lives and it's just captured and it's just perpetuated as this incredibly reductive stereotype of us. And so this has also been perpetuated at different levels and this weaponization through now the state sanctioned racism
00:20:31
Speaker
of the inability to acknowledge that there are multiple scores majority of Muslim women who wear hijab have chosen to wear hijab. And so basically we're going to save you by not allowing you any choice about how to dress yourself, what clothes to wear, basically what to do with your own body. And this white liberal, quote unquote neoliberal actually feminism,
00:21:00
Speaker
is incredibly damaging and we now are seeing the effects of this in quebec and so as an educator as i read stories for example of other muslim educators who at this point basically because of the law they won't lose their job but they can't get promoted so basically if they complain about racism or samophobia
00:21:22
Speaker
they can easily get fired because it's de-sanctioned. And so they won't be able to get promoted and they don't really have legal recourses, sorry, recourses, of course you have legal recourses, but we know how this will work out. Basically, they won't be able to fulfill their path in their careers as they might see fit for themselves. So how is this freedom? And so I'll stop there.
00:21:50
Speaker
Yeah, the Bill 21 stuff really doesn't get enough play. And it's mostly because just English Canada doesn't really pay attention to Quebec, but it is shockingly authoritarian, what's happening there right now.
00:22:06
Speaker
And Haika, I know, and these are terms we've kind of used interchangeably over the course of how far the 20 minutes or 25 minutes we've done so far. But Haika, I know you've done a bit of thinking about this too, about Islamophobia versus the term Muslim hate, anti-Muslim hate. What do you think we should call it? And what's your preferred kind of nomenclature? My preferred one has to be anti-Muslim hate because it centers people.
00:22:36
Speaker
When I think about Islamophobia, the very term is about fear of Islam. But I think the attacks that happen towards us doesn't come from a fear, the fear of Islam or fear of just not understanding what Islam means. And you're just a little bit uneducated. It is pure meditated, premeditated hate. And I think we need to move beyond this idea that like people don't
00:23:03
Speaker
people don't understand you and your way of life. And that's why they fear you because that kind of fear leads to very violent hate towards us. And also I feel like the word Islamophobia leads us to these like very academic talks about Muslim experience. And I've been there, I've been in universities, sat on those round tables where whenever I would call something Islamophobic, the conversation would turn
00:23:32
Speaker
from your feelings versus my freedom of speech. And then it would go down that rabbit hole rather than talking about the impact so-and-so policy is having on real life people. So whenever I talk about other forms of racism like anti-Asian hate or anti-Semitism,
00:23:54
Speaker
Anything like that, it centers the people that are experiencing it. Whereas I find with Islamophobia, it becomes an academic discussion on people's experiences. And second, it puts the burden on the Muslim community to do more. You need to go out and have more interfaith dialogue. You need to do X, Y, and Z so people don't fear your existence.
00:24:20
Speaker
So that's why I think we have a chance right now to kind of shift the language about the hate that we as Muslims in Canada experience.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Like people aren't attacking Muslim was women because they're scared of them. They're doing it because they hate Muslim women. And like, you know, I'm, I'm, I was born in 1983. I'm 38 years old. I watched a movie called arachnophobia when I was a kid about, you know, scary spiders. Like it is, it's a very like psychological psych class term. Like anti Muslim hate is far more correct. Yeah.
00:25:00
Speaker
But I think there's also a divide in the community because, and obviously I don't speak for the full Muslim community, there's a growing sentiment that we need to reclaim this term because a lot of the hate that comes towards us does come from hatred of Islam. So where do we reconcile the two? But I think those are discussions that we as a community
00:25:24
Speaker
to have and shift the public dialogue on the Muslim experience in North America. Yeah. Can I also add something here too, please? Yeah, I agree 100% with Haika. I mean, even when I was in the process of beginning my research, I remember telling my supervisor, I don't like the term Islamophobia because it's so pathologizing and it is not accurate in my opinion about our experiences.
00:25:54
Speaker
And yeah, just like Haika, I feel this tension because it's also what has been, there's scores on scores of work that use the term, uses the term Islamophobia and scores upon scores of different bodies of literature that if we don't use the term that might get lost in the process, even from something as basic as an academic search. And so I've been trying to use both terms.
00:26:23
Speaker
like alongside each other in my work. And so and to make it clear that it's really okay, yes, the term is important, of course, how we name thing matters. But we have to move beyond really navel gazing about the term at this point and really get towards what are we gonna do about it? You know, and so that's where I feel a lot of tension because I agree 100% with Haika about it.
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah, what we do about it is is something we need to get to. And what the Alberta government has done about it is what spurred this podcast in the first place and me reaching out to both of you and setting this up because, you know, as we I stated off the top, all of this epidemic of violence against Muslim women, you know, the government of Alberta has noticed it, but they haven't really done
Critique of Government Responses
00:27:12
Speaker
very much. So I'll give a very kind of brief pricey of their response.
00:27:16
Speaker
So just after a Catholic Church burnt down in Morinville, Jason Kenney, the premier of our province, threw even more money at a program that had been targeted at mosques and synagogues that gave them money to put in.
00:27:26
Speaker
Things like cameras and fencing and security systems. In December, three Cabinet ministers put out a statement on the hate-motivated assaults of hijabis that were happening here in Edmonton. Justice Minister Casey Medue announced a plan to create a dedicated hate crime unit.
00:27:46
Speaker
which was essentially just building on something that was announced by the NDP but was never actually built. It never actually happened. Madhu also announced a new community liaison position that will connect directly with ethnic and religious groups that are affected by hate crimes. And finally, Casey Madhu really did this. He really wrote a letter to the federal government
00:28:10
Speaker
calling on them to amend the criminal code to allow for pepper spray as a means of self-defense, saying that the provincial government had, quote, done everything within provincial jurisdiction to deal with this issue. This issue being, of course, the epidemic of violence against Muslim women. What do you all? I don't know. Why don't I start with Hika? Hika, what do you think about the Alberta government's response to this epidemic of violence against Muslim women? Have they done everything within provincial jurisdiction to deal with the issue?
00:28:41
Speaker
Oh God, absolutely not. And I'm laughing because this is just ridiculous, Duncan. Like pepper spray, like, are we really going to encourage violence now? And I don't even know where they got that idea from, as if they don't have lists and lists of recommendations and all the people that come forward with these are these are the very tangible things that you can do. But instead, they went for something like a pepper spray that would require very little work on the provincial government's part.
00:29:11
Speaker
and just pass the buck off to the feds and be like, look, we did something. And I genuinely believe that they made that announcement on July 22nd, the same day as the Samophobia Summit was happening to try to steal the thunder from the federal liberal. So like we see these politicians playing games with our lives, trying to score political points for something as stupid as a pepper spray.
00:29:41
Speaker
I don't want to take this lightly because I was horrified too when I saw that that was an idea that they were presenting because A, it shows they're not listening to our communities. They recognize that something is happening, but that is a solution they're coming up with. And then second, my worry is that this sort of pepper spray, if it is legalized and hopefully it's not, could very much be used in turn
00:30:06
Speaker
as a violent tool against Muslim women, against black men and indigenous men. When, you know, a white woman could be in our downtown and even with the slight fear of her security, she could easily pepper spray a black or indigenous man. And that is very scary. And it shows that they haven't really thought this through. Like there was, I haven't heard from a single person.
00:30:31
Speaker
that is on board with this idea for pepper spray for all. It's just ridiculous. Mona, what are your thoughts on the Alberta government's reaction and the pepper spray for all idea from our justice minister? I agree with Haika again. It is absolutely ridiculous. Nobody asked for that. All of these listening sessions seems to underscore that nobody's listening.
00:31:02
Speaker
because I'm going to highlight, not only, you highlighted the NCM report, but I'm going to highlight something that is a group that is very much women-led and women-centered, Muslim women-led and Muslim women-centered. The Sisters Dialogue group, and they put out, and I sent you a screenshot of the recommendations that they put out for centering women's voices and anti-Muslim hate.
00:31:29
Speaker
because of course, you know, of course all Muslims should be, should be centered. Because these attacks have been specifically against Muslim women and specifically black Muslim women, this should be, they should be, you know, really centered in these discussions. And so when he comes out with this recommendation about pepper spray, honestly, again, I've been part of dozens of these listening sessions
00:31:58
Speaker
And that has never come out. So I honestly have no clue where he got that from. I think that it is absolutely short-sighted and characteristically, in all honesty, if I'm going to be completely honest. And Haika really brought that forward as well. Me and my sister, and I'm going to shout her out Fatima Saleh. And she's going to, because I need to shout her out, of course. She tweeted that what happens if people are assuming you're armed?
00:32:28
Speaker
even as they're trying to attack you, not to mention if they're better armed. And so it's just incredibly, honestly, it doesn't make any sense. And so that's my thoughts. Sounds like both of you have been a part of a lot of waste of time listening exercises. Way too many, way too many. Honestly, yes.
00:32:57
Speaker
Similar to Muna, I absolutely refuse to do them because I'm like, okay, these are some tangible things that you can do and you refuse to just waste our time and use listening sessions as a delayed task to take any tangible action. So I refuse to engage in them.
00:33:16
Speaker
Well, and many of us have been doing these kinds of things for several years now. It's not just these last few months, which have been really intense, because here's another thing that many people probably don't realize as well, is that you have people from municipal governments, you have people from different parties and provincial governments, and you have people from different parties and federal governments.
00:33:42
Speaker
You're just completely inundated with these constant requests to re-traumatize yourself because it is a for we, I'm, you know, people don't realize we have individual and collective trauma from these ongoing, this ongoing hate and violence against us. And so.
00:34:02
Speaker
You know, at first, when I first started getting asked, I was more than willing because I thought maybe, you know, maybe if we teach, maybe if people learn, maybe people understand. And honestly, several years later, I am so sick of it and cynical because really what it's become very clear to me is that it's a performative way of saying, we are here, we are listening. But listening to me implies doing something with what you're listening to.
00:34:28
Speaker
That's actively listening to people. And so I refuse to do them. I'm done. Yeah, very fair. And, you know, I mean, it's just classic where the government is wants to appear to be doing something. But, you know, they have a 60 billion dollar budget. You know, the government of Alberta, they have the ability to write laws and it's like, we'll listen to you and then not listen to you and then just ask for pepper spray.
00:34:57
Speaker
I do want to recognize here the special burden that we've put on Black women. I know when you brought up the idea of this podcast and you and I tried to find somebody for almost two months to be able to do this podcast with us and we weren't able to and it's because people like Hanan Mahmoud or Asma Ali or Tamir Mohammed are leading the work on the ground and have been burnt by these institutions. They've given so much of their time
00:35:26
Speaker
and have not been listened to both on the left and the center right. So I think the burden that we've placed on Black women is so huge and constantly expecting them to come and teach us and then completely dismissing them when it actually comes to taking some real action. Yes, and I want to also add and really highlight the work of Dunya Noor, who has been doing so much alongside all of these other amazing women that
00:35:57
Speaker
Haika mentioned, because if I feel so burnt out, if Haika feels so burnt out, I cannot imagine the layers of exhaustion when you're also dealing with anti-Black hate and the refusal to acknowledge it within and across different communities, Muslim communities and non-Muslim communities. And so I'm 100% in agreement.
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah, Dunya does amazing work and we tried to get her, but again, that didn't work out. But I think this leads us into, you know, you know, the classic what is to be done section of the progress report podcast. And this one I think is, you know, one of the trickier ones just because of how baked and ingrained into society, anti Muslim hate and Islamophobia is. And so I'll throw it out to whoever wants to go first, like,
00:36:56
Speaker
what are your top three kind of things you would recommend to kind of address the systemic issues behind this epidemic of violence against hijabis?
Calls for Systemic Change and Intersectional Approaches
00:37:10
Speaker
I can go first. And I think first thing I really want to reiterate is that we cannot legislate our way out of hate. We cannot just, you know, have a dedicated hate crimes unit and just pray that hate crimes will go away. We've tried that.
00:37:25
Speaker
We can't just, you know, be soft prosecutions and be like prosecute these people and make sure they're in jail because that's just not going to work. And Duncan, you and I were chatting about this before. I have been, you know, crafting the cases as they go through our legal system. And one thing that I've noticed is that a lot of the perpetrators of anti-Muslim hate are part of our unhoused population.
00:37:53
Speaker
who are having a mental health crisis, but the opioid crisis that is going on. Many of them are indigenous. And I think for me, I would not want a state to use my safety as an excuse to further prosecute the marginalized people of our society. That is just completely unacceptable to me. So when we're talking about safety of Muslim women, I am viewing it as how are we
00:38:23
Speaker
using practices of restorative justice as we move forward on these legal cases. And I would really encourage governments at all levels to take that approach, to invest in affordable housing, to change our curriculum. And I know Dr. Saleh can talk more about this, she's the expert, but to have, to address Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hate within our curriculum,
00:38:51
Speaker
that Alberta government has completely tarnished and to focus a lot on mental health support. There is an opioid crisis right now in Alberta and the fact that the government refuses to even acknowledge that is very concerning and it's putting all of our safety at risk. Yeah, thank you so much. And 100 again, I agree.
00:39:21
Speaker
100% with Haika and what she said. And I'm going to just really stress and highlight here that it's important to remember that this cannot be done in isolation. Our work is rooted in intersectionality or else it doesn't succeed. Because here I'm referring to the theory of intersectionality that legal scholar Kimberly Crenshaw conceptualized over 30 years ago. So at that time, Dr. Crenshaw discussed how black women in America face oppressive systems.
00:39:48
Speaker
of sexism and anti-Black racism and how they converge in unique ways. But more recently, she and others have discussed how violent systems of settler colonialism, anti-Black racism, anti-Indigenous racism, anti-Asian racism, anti-Palestinian racism, ableism, colorism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, poverty, classism, Islamophobia, and anti-Semitism among many other systems. So I really want to read what I'm going to say next in these. And when we're talking about
00:40:16
Speaker
anti-impressive education or anti-racist education, we have to continuously remember that that's what we're talking about, how it intersects, all these systems intersect and our systems are rooted in these systems. And so another thing that I really wanted to highlight is that we can't, Haika and I, as much as we try to bring forward the different considerations, we can't and there's just no way we can speak on behalf of all Muslim women.
00:40:47
Speaker
Um, and so I'm going to be highlighting some of the things that, um, sister Zylak has recommended. And so, so I'm just going to read a few out. So one of them is that province-wide public service announcements against Islamophobia that are proactive and internal anti-Islamophobia policy for all provincial agencies and institution.
00:41:12
Speaker
Zero tolerance approach for hate groups and commitment from the Ministry of Justice to hold law enforcement to their disbanding. And there should be designated Hate Crime Resource Council group that can advise current prosecutors. And we want an education curriculum that centers around equity, justice, and Indigenous, Black, and Muslim history. And I say that as I think about how I had a recent discussion with my dean, Dr. Edgar Schmidt,
00:41:41
Speaker
about these constant calls for anti-racist education. And of course it is important, but we cannot educate our way out of these things as well. Because the problem with trying to focus solely on education is that to forget all of these other systems that we are all embedded in and that shape our lives in different ways.
00:42:03
Speaker
And so yes, education, of course I'm 100%. And of course I agree with Haika that the proposed curriculum is absolute, I'm just gonna use this garbage, especially social studies proposed curriculum. And I can get into that because social studies is my area. But what we need more than anything is to stop playing politics with people's lives. And I know this is hard for people in politics to maybe understand in different ways. And I'm talking specifically about
00:42:32
Speaker
our politicians and leaders, so-called leaders here in Alberta. But we need people to stop playing politics with our lives because this is serious. People are literally facing violence on an everyday basis in different forms. And some, as has been highlighted, have lost their lives because of it. I'm sorry, I should not say lost their lives. I'm gonna bring that for, take that back. Their lives have been taken because of it.
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah, this is again, you're talking about transforming society right into one that doesn't demonize others and is welcoming and loving and takes care of people as opposed to the system we have now, which is like fundamentally inhuman and violent to so many people. Yeah, can I actually just also add to that? And that is something that a lot of people when they hear me talk, they just hear or they see my tweets, for example, and for many of us it's the same way, they just think that we are
00:43:34
Speaker
You know, angry, and I am angry, anger is a valid response and emotion to injustice. But really what we're calling for is a society that's rooted in what Audrey Lord and Bell Hoods conceptualize as radical love. That we can and should change systems. And what Dr. Dwayne Donald has conceptualized as relational, ethical relationality.
00:44:00
Speaker
There are different ways of being in this world and living and building and rooting our world, but are we brave enough to take it and to try to do things in more humane and just ways? Exactly. As Haika said, we're not going to be able to cop and prison and hate crime unit and security at mosques are way out of this problem, right?
00:44:25
Speaker
And it is foundational.
Imperialism and Systemic Issues
00:44:26
Speaker
And one thing that I think is that the point that I want to raise is that like pushing back against anti-Muslim hate necessarily, it involves a critique of imperialism, specifically like American and Canadian imperialism. And so, you know, how do we even start raising that? I think Munet, I think you said it so beautifully. The challenge here, I think Duncan, is that people are looking for a quite specific
00:44:54
Speaker
Our politicians are looking for low-hanging food, and I think that's where the pepper spray came about as well. Nobody wants to do the real work of fundamentally changing our systems so that we can fuel, save, and thrive in our society. And that's the biggest challenge. I know, Mona, you can probably relate to this, too, is I feel like every single solution that I've ever presented in Verna Politicians way with Community Roundtable
00:45:23
Speaker
has been dismissed because they, it's been, well, you know, I need something now because these attacks are happening now. So tell me something that I can do right now so people stop attacking Muslim women on the streets. And then I'm put in the position, I'm like, I don't have the answer for that because there is no answer for that. And I've sat and I've thought about it, but there isn't, there is no short term fix. We all have to step up and do the work. And I see, especially on social media, you know,
00:45:53
Speaker
A lot of people just passing the buck off to politicians. And I get it. Politicians and our leaders have the tools in all levels of government to implement change. But we all have to do the work as well. I see a lot of people who say that they're allies to the Muslim community. And their allyship just stops at criticizing
00:46:21
Speaker
politicians, but not carrying that work in their everyday lives and approving anti-Muslim hate and Islamophobia in the systems that they operate in. And I think that is the biggest challenge that it's all of us that have to do with work. I couldn't say it any more beautifully. Thank you, Haika. That's absolutely correct.
00:46:40
Speaker
I think that, you know, enough with trying to figure out how we can do things immediately and as low, like as low cost and as low effort as possible and really get to do, get to the work that needs to be done. Because I think everybody knows that it needs to be done. It's just who's going to actually take the lead and be courageous enough to just start. Hmm.
00:47:07
Speaker
And again, this is why this conversation is, I mean, it's good. I've learned a lot. You're both incredible guests.
00:47:17
Speaker
but it's like, okay, so all we got to do is just dismantle Canada and start from the
Conclusion and Farewell
00:47:21
Speaker
ground up. And like, I'm here for it. I want to do it. But like, it's like, it's just, uh, this is, we're just talking on a podcast right now. You know, it's not really, I mean, it's important. There's education. I mean, there's, there's, there's value to having this conversation, but like you, I want to move forward. I want to do the damn thing. And so, um, but I, I'm very grateful to have both of you on. I think this has been, um,
00:47:44
Speaker
very good conversation. I'm, again, very happy that both of you agreed to come on and talk about this issue. I think that is going to be it for this. How can people follow along with your work on the internet and keep in touch if that is a thing you want? We'll start with Dr. Mana. I'm so wary of putting my information out there. And I hate to say it's because of Gendered,
00:48:10
Speaker
Islamophobia and anti Muslim hate I've gotten a lot but so I'll just say that maybe they can follow along by following me on Twitter at Dr. Mona Saleh is my handle. Don't follow me if you're if you're racist. But also, hopefully through first future podcasts.
00:48:34
Speaker
Very similarly to Dr. Saleh, I actually recently changed my handle on Twitter because the amount of hate that I was getting for my whole Palestine attacks and the surveillance I was getting. So my Twitter account is actually at ruaqsa, so it's R-O-O-H-A-F-VED, so like five A's at the end to make it really hard for people to find me.
00:48:57
Speaker
And whoops, that is a really sweet bakusan drink. So that's why I decided to name it that. So you can follow me along on Twitter as I tweet random stuff all the time. Same.
00:49:16
Speaker
Don't expect hot takes, you know what I mean? Like, it's going to be some jokes, some really weird memes, but also some critiques on the face. I know, that's so funny. It's just, it's a mixed bag, which is important because we're not all, any one of us, all about any one thing.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me, Duncan. It's always a pleasure. And thank you to Dr. Muner Saleh for coming on with me. I learned so much from you and you're such an asset to our community, Dr. Saleh. My social media is, you can just search me on Twitter, HiKachima, H-A-I-Q-A-C-H-E-E-M. And yeah, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
00:50:04
Speaker
If you like this podcast and want to join the 500-some other folks who help keep this independent media project going, it's a very easy thing to do. You can go to theprogressreport.ca slash patrons, put in your credit card, become a monthly contributor. We'd really appreciate it. There's also a link in the show notes. Also, if you have any thoughts, notes, comments, things you think I need to hear, things you think I screwed up on, I'm very easy to get a hold of as well. You can reach my email at dunkingkatprogressalberta.ca or on Twitter at
00:50:32
Speaker
at Dunkin' Kinney. Thanks so much to Cosmic Family Communist for our amazing theme, thanks again to our wonderful guests, thank you for listening, and goodbye.