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Benjamin Gorman
189 Plays5 years ago
Benjamin Gorman is the author of The Sum of Our Gods (2013, Not a Pipe Publishing), Corporate High School (2015, Not a Pipe Publishing), and The Digital Storm: A Science Fiction Reimagining of William Shakespeare's The Tempest (2017, Not a Pipe Publishing), and Don’t Read This Book (2019, Not a Pipe Publishing). Corporate High School became an Amazon bestseller in 2016, and The Digital Storm was named a “Top Five Book Pick” by the San Diego Union Tribune. Benjamin is a high school English teacher. He lives in Independence, Oregon with his son, Noah. Benjamin believes in human beings and the power of their stories. He places his confidence in his students and the world they will choose to create if given the chance.
Benjamin was born in Michigan, grew up in Illinois, California, and Ohio, and graduated with a BA from Whitworth University in Washington before moving to Oregon to get an MAT at George Fox University. He teaches at Central High School and loves his job. He’s passionate about the classes he teaches, like Creative Writing and Science Fiction Literature, but he enjoys the students even more than the content.
He is a strong advocate for public education and for elevating and honoring the profession of teaching, so he served as the president of his local teachers’ union and now serves on the board of the Oregon Education Association. He has also been named to the National Writing Project's Writer's Council.
Meanwhile, he writes every chance he gets. In 2013, he decided to start his own publishing company, Not a Pipe Publishing, and venture into the exciting and growing independent publishing industry. “I’m luckier than a lot of writers who slog their way through day jobs they hate. I get to work on my craft with the help of my students at a job I love, and as we learn together, I get better. I hope that shows in The Sum of Our Gods, Corporate High School, The Digital Storm, and Don’t Read This Book. Like much of the union work I’ve done at the bargaining table, the meaning of a novel is a negotiation between the reader and the writer. I hope I’ve brought my readers a fair offer, something they’ll be pleased to accept.”
http://www.notapipepublishing.com/benjamin-gorman
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host Dan Vellante. Editor and producer Peter Bauer.
00:00:18
Speaker
This is Ken Volante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast. And for this episode, we have Benjamin Gorman, who is a friend of mine and somebody that I know. He's an author, a teacher in Oregon. His books that he's written works, you know, publishing books, but also his own books are entitled The Sum of Our Gods, Corporate High School, The Digital Storm,
Early Writing Experiences and Philosophical Reflections
00:00:45
Speaker
and the last one entitled Don't Read This Book. Ben wanted to welcome you to the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast. Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited. Yeah, it's a real pleasure to get you on the show here, Ben, and just kind of chat a bit about the craft of writing and some of our mutual interests around
00:01:13
Speaker
public education and things like that. But prior to getting into some of the bigger issues about art and writing and such, what were you like when you were younger as a young child?
00:01:25
Speaker
As a writer, I was spoiled in that my upbringing is a writer's upbringing. My folks are both ministers, so writing was part of their job. My first writing experience was my mom taking dictation before I could even write because I would tell these stories and she was like, you should write these down.
00:01:48
Speaker
And so right away that was encouraged, that was fostered in my household. And I was a weird little kid who like very much saw things in a way that lent itself toward later becoming a philosophy major in college. Like even when I was little, I can remember walking around the elementary school playground saying things to myself like, in 200 years, is any of this going to
Writing as Emotional Processing
00:02:10
Speaker
matter?
00:02:10
Speaker
Which is a bizarre thing for a child to be thinking about. Or thinking, what if this were a movie? And narrating what was going on to myself, kind of Truman Show-esque.
00:02:24
Speaker
So already I was thinking very much in terms of narrative and storytelling, and that's always been really comfortable for me. So then my family, when I was in middle school, moved across the country from San Diego to Cincinnati, Ohio. And no knock on Cincinnati, but it is not culturally like San Diego at all. And so I showed up as this guy who had
00:02:51
Speaker
you know, surfer clothes and stuff like that. There's no surfing in Cincinnati. Like I did not fit in at all. And so I kind of retreated into myself very much during high school and became really introverted and hid in my writing. And so I read voraciously and wrote, you know, I would write all night long.
00:03:13
Speaker
And that was my way of kind of coping. And it wasn't until I went to college that I went, oh, I can be an extrovert. I can choose where I live and I can, you know, befriend people and kind of be an extrovert. But I had to go through my time in the wilderness in Cincinnati and discover my writing voice to some extent there.
Balancing Solitude and Social Connection in Art
00:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, and a lot of times I talk in particular with authors and writers, there is that ability to process some of those complicated things unto yourself in a solitary fashion that really can help during that time.
00:03:55
Speaker
So for you, I mean, was it primarily was it primarily about, you know, about developing, you know, as a writer, when you saw yourself as an artist, as you develop and as you got older, you pretty much probably started to see yourself or define yourself as a writer. Is that safe to say? Yeah, I think all the going all the way back to, you know, that that right around the time of that move. So like eighth grade, I remember a teacher saying, OK, here's your writing prompt and I want you to go home and write a story.
00:04:23
Speaker
And I went home and wrote 60 pages, which, you know, now as a teacher, I know what she did with that. She looked at it and went, oh, my gosh, I have to read 60 pages. Sure. But but at the time I thought, oh, wow, there's something here I really can produce a lot. And I was really escaping. I mean, I didn't it wasn't it was far from high art at that point. It was these escapist sci-fi stories. It was a way for me to, you know,
00:04:49
Speaker
dodge what was going on in my life and my own feelings to a large degree, and then it became a way to process. And one of the weird things about writing is it is both solitary and social. You're using this art form that you do in isolation in an attempt to reach out to the world. So there's that constant tension of
00:05:08
Speaker
Am I spending too much time in the world and trying to get this out there, trying to meet people, trying to connect, and I'm not devoting myself to this craft, which is solitary, or am I devoting myself so entirely to the craft that I'm losing touch with the reason that I'm writing in the first place, which is to connect with other people?
00:05:27
Speaker
And so that it wasn't until college that I really started to think about who is my audience? What am I saying to that audience? Is this, you know, this is for their benefit and not just selfish. So that that was that was a process, you know, important turning point in the process for me as well. Yeah, I really like what you had to say there and basically about the ways of communicating that there of course is that solitary process.
00:05:52
Speaker
Of course, with words you are trying to get across, that is beyond you or to a lot of people, maybe millions of people, it matters what your intent is.
Philosophical Influences and Accessible Writing
00:06:05
Speaker
I was wondering if you had a thought on this question, having studied philosophy myself, and you had mentioned you had studied philosophy. One of the difficulties I find with philosophers is that they tend to have those thoughts, those very
00:06:22
Speaker
intricate, sophisticated, important thoughts, but they're not always the best at the kind of artistic side of conveying those thoughts. Do you have a philosopher too that when you look at them as a writer, you say, whoa, not only is this, you know, this
00:06:42
Speaker
philosopher, you know, a philosopher, but they're a writer as well. Any, any philosophy? So sometimes it kind of works backwards. Sometimes I'll read a novelist and think this person really should be taken more seriously as a philosopher. So like Frank Herbert, when you read Frank Herbert's Dune, he's got these epigraphs at the beginning of each chapter and I'm reading them going,
00:07:01
Speaker
This is a series of really coherent philosophies that he's attributed to these various characters and groups that really should be taken very seriously philosophically.
00:07:16
Speaker
I'll top my head. Oh, gosh, now I'm blanking on Ursula K. Le Guin. Ursula K. Le Guin should be definitely treated as a philosopher. There was a movement in the, I'm thinking late 90s when philosophy started to recognize exactly what you're pointing out, which is that they were getting so into the weeds, into these questions that had no bearing on the society in which they lived. And so I think one of the people who made a real positive contribution in that area was Richard Wardy.
00:07:44
Speaker
And Rorty kind of said, if we're writing stuff that no one can read, that is filled with so much terminology that is not helpful to the general public, then we're wasting our time. So his writing style is far more readable. And then Cornel West does a good job of writing. I agree with him on a lot of things, but he is very readable.
00:08:06
Speaker
And so those two kind of jump to mind as people who really write their kind of public intellectuals. And then I would say that my favorite right now is Ta-Nehisi Coates. Now, I don't know that he would consider himself a philosopher, but I think he really is doing a lot of kind of public intellectual kind of work.
00:08:26
Speaker
And his writing is amazing. And I read his fiction as well. I was actually nervous when he recently had a novel come out. And I was nervous because I was going, this guy, I know he can write. I've read his and I know he can write fiction. He's he wrote Black Panther, the comic books for a while. So we can write. But I was like, a novel is a different kind of creature. And is he going to be able to pull this off? And oh, boy, can he? His book, The Water Dancer is astounding.
00:08:54
Speaker
But all of his writing is that kind of philosophical writing that is accessible and at the same time shows a great deal of care for the craft. Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning that too, because I hadn't read that book, but I was wondering that myself. I was certainly open-minded and being like, well, let's see how this is.
00:09:15
Speaker
It's it's it's good to hear about the the quality of that fiction. I'm definitely so good Well, if you're like me like it's it's the you know kind of perfect melding of all these things that I'm really interested in because you know racial justice is something that really animates a lot of my Work and a lot of my life in fact I've been protesting about every night for the last few weeks So it's something that is you know, really important to me and at the same time I'm a comic book geek and so he tells a slave narrative but
00:09:43
Speaker
kind of has the twist of what if there was a person in the, you know, who was a slave who had the ability to teleport. And so, you know, logically, the first thing you do is you figure out how to teleport out of there. But then to ask the much more challenging question, both of the character and of the reader, would you teleport back and take on the role of a slave again as part of the Underground Railroad to try and free slaves?
00:10:12
Speaker
And so it's intense. And his description of slavery is harrowing and works all the more effectively because then when the character is wrestling with that question of do I dare to go back into that, you know what he's considering returning to. But the way that it presents the white characters, even those involved in the abolition movement is so important for us to read today because
00:10:37
Speaker
So often you will see people who are involved in racial justice work and white people are saying, I am willing to sacrifice even the black people involved in this work for a my white agenda.
00:10:49
Speaker
And so, you know, really he is wrestling with that in a really deep, rich way and making you feel, hey, it's very hard for white people to take a backseat on this issue and, you know, and really work for justice in a way that doesn't involve more white supremacy within the movement itself. So it's it is absolutely worth your time.
Art's Role in Racism and Diversity in Publishing
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, and thanks for that. I appreciate your thoughts on that. I want to connect that to a question which is a little bit up ahead, but I'm going to ask you now, in the discussion on the podcast and some important questions around
00:11:30
Speaker
You know, just the role of art, you know, what what, you know, how does it how does it serve? Does it serve an agenda? Does it reinforce, you know, ideologies? How does it do that? But what you just I was wondering if you had some comments as far as what you see is the role of art in either disrupting or dismantling or interrogating the the issue of in particular within the American society, American racism, what's the role of art?
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, it's so incredibly important and so complex because, you know, historically art has been the means by which a lot of racism has been reinforced, whether that was through, I mean, one of the first black poets was a poet who was brought in to, you know, share her poetry with George Washington. But the poetry is all saying racism is great. It's been so nice that white people have brought us white culture.
00:12:28
Speaker
And so, you know, even then there was this recognition of Black art had its place as long as it reinforced the status quo.
00:12:35
Speaker
And then, you know, throughout our history, the history of minstrelry and, you know, black music being used merely as entertainment and the people producing that music having to make those incredibly difficult decisions where they're saying, on the one hand, I get to be involved in the production of art. I get to be an artist. On the other hand, I have to sacrifice the dignity of doing this work at the behest of people who don't treat me as fully human.
00:13:00
Speaker
art is incredibly important in both maintaining our racism and challenging our racism. And I think one of the things that white artists really need to think about very carefully is in what ways are we participating in both
00:13:17
Speaker
In what ways are we making things normative? Beyond race, it goes to all kinds of things. In what ways am I reinforcing sexism by describing the world that I'm in and making that normative? In what ways am I reinforcing homophobia if I am describing gender identity as I understand it right now?
00:13:38
Speaker
which 50 years from now will look archaic. Those kinds of questions, I wrestle a lot with those. I think a lot about what in my work is challenging our current understandings of race, what in my work is reinforcing those, what is merely describing the way that the world works right now, especially in the United States.
00:14:06
Speaker
It is really tricky. I think artists absolutely have a responsibility to be engaged in shaking up their society in every way. I mean, that's a part of what art does. Art should be rebellious at some really fundamental level. We describe the world and comment on it, which means we are saying, I'm not merely accepting this. This is the way things are and this is the way things should be. And there should be attention there.
00:14:35
Speaker
That being said, just the act of describing the world is normative. And so we need to really be thoughtful about the ways that we describe the world. The other thing that I run into personally all the time is that as a white male, just speaking, might be crowding out other voices. And so I'm really cognizant of that. I do my best to make sure that I am spending a lot of energy promoting voices other than my own.
00:15:03
Speaker
Because if I'm saying, read my books, read my books, read my books, and somebody decides to invest their time to read my books, during that time, they are not reading a black author. I would feel terrible if I were responsible for other voices being pushed out, because the world has heard far too much from old white men.
00:15:24
Speaker
I own a small press and we really have made a very intentional concerted effort to publish more women, more LGBTQ folks, more people of color so that I am investing my time and energy in promoting voices other than my own. I think that's a key part of kind of changing the, not just the publishing industry, but changing the voices that people are exposed to.
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, and I see that within, and I certainly appreciate your comments, I see that within your publishing too, and it's noticeable, and it's important just to point out, and just as far as, you know, about what we consider, you know, what is published, what is seen, and a lot that isn't seen. And publishing has always been vitally important in making those choices.
00:16:19
Speaker
i appreciate your comments uh... around that uh... well i mean i was saying historically because publishing is this intersection of art and commerce it's inherently conservative publishers are always thinking to themselves okay well we we also need to make money so we want to put art out into the world but we need to pay the bills and then what they do is they look back and they say well what paid the bills last year what worked and what worked the year before that and what worked the year before that and so there's always this
00:16:47
Speaker
looking backwards, and by its nature, if everybody does that, they end up going, well, I guess we're just going to keep putting out Shakespeare and Homer. It's all going to be dead white guys, because that's what worked in the past. It really takes people who are brave, who will say, this didn't sell last year, but maybe it will next year.
00:17:07
Speaker
And I believe it should. This is art that the world needs rather than art that is a guaranteed, you know, it'll keep the lights on. And the biggest publishing companies, unfortunately, are the least likely to do that because they've got the most in the way of bills to pay. And so they are always going to be, you know,
00:17:26
Speaker
looking backwards. Even this next year, we're going to see a lot more interest in black authors because black authors had a moment where they totally swept the New York Times bestseller list. It was so wonderful to see. It absolutely made my day. I guarantee next year, those publishing companies are going to go, that worked.
00:17:46
Speaker
What they're not going to do is say, oh, okay, that worked. So what pushes beyond that? We need more Latinx authors. We need to hear more from Asian Americans. We need to hear more from, you know, we need different voices. They're going to always go what worked in the past. And so a real small press like mine can be nimble enough because we don't have to make money. In many years we don't.
00:18:08
Speaker
So I can say this might not be something that will be financially successful, but I think this is a voice that really needs to get out there.
Art's Role During COVID-19
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah. And I appreciate your thoughts on the background as far as just what you're trying to do with opening up that space. I have another question, Ben, about the role of art. What's the role of art?
00:18:39
Speaker
in a pandemic. What's the role of art now? Have you as an artist, related to this, found yourself questioning this area or trying to figure out what to do or what not to do as an artist?
00:18:55
Speaker
Yeah, no. Yeah. And you know, I think many artists like me are finding the same thing where they're struggling to say, how do I create art in this time? And at the same time, they're saying, but I can't not because I'm I'm an artist. It's become part of my identity and it's a compulsion. So I'm going to create art, but I'm not sure how it fits in this world. And maybe that's actually ideal because so much of what this covid has presented us with is just, you know, a mountain of uncertainty.
00:19:24
Speaker
And so even reflecting that in our art, it might be entirely appropriate to say, we are not sure how to reflect this world, how to engage with this world right now, because
00:19:36
Speaker
I am describing a world of uncertainty. For me, what I started doing, I started writing a novel. For the first time in my life, I'm writing multiple books at the same time, which is one of those things that lots of authors recommended to me. They said, oh yeah, never just work on one at a time. And I dismissed it. I just went, oh no, that's not my process. That's fine that that works for you, but I need to focus on one at a time.
00:20:00
Speaker
And now I'm trying it, I'm going, oh, yeah, it turns out those folks really know what they're talking about, because it's really nice to be able to go, I'm not feeling this one today. I'm hopping to this other project. Oh, I'm not feeling this one.
Science Fiction and Cultural Themes
00:20:10
Speaker
I'm hopping to this other. So that has made me more productive. And, you know, and so I'm cranking out three books at a time. But one of them is
00:20:19
Speaker
about a guy who is on a spaceship. I'm a sci-fi author. He's on a spaceship. There is a virus that is loose on this giant ship, and he is quarantined to his cabin. And so it reflects how it feels to be stuck
00:20:38
Speaker
and just resets it in a new space. And then there's the plot. He does get out and it gets into some deeper things. There are folks on the ship who are saying the virus isn't real. And so it allows me to really play with this idea of propaganda and how deadly that propaganda is in a time of a pandemic. And at the same time, it's on a spaceship. So it provides that remove. We can go, oh, this is a story.
00:21:08
Speaker
a video of somebody not wearing a mask and screaming strange conspiracy theories in our world. And it's not a huge leap for a reader to easily make that connection. So that's one that I'm really enjoying playing with right now. Well, and on that too, I want to jump in a tiny bit on the science fiction. I know you brought up
00:21:30
Speaker
in both you as a science fiction writer and Ursula Legan that you had mentioned. I'm a big science fiction fan myself, also comic books. And one of the things I find is that those who are into the genres know that some of the more controversial or difficult themes around race or environmental issues, things like that,
00:21:59
Speaker
You know, sometimes I've had more fertile ground in science fiction for a longer amount of time. You know, it's just been that space for it develop. And I think one of the things and I'd like to hear your comments. I think sometimes when you know, I don't know, almost these secrets or you encounter these type of texts and you tell others about it.
00:22:20
Speaker
Um, you sometimes wonder is like, you know, Hey, don't, you know, what's happening? You know, we're also, you know, again, was talking about, like, for the right. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Many people who will say like, Oh, I don't like science fiction. And then you'll start to kind of interrogate that a little bit and they'll go and you'll find out, Oh, they did read 1984 and they read Brave New World and they read the road and they're okay. You've read a lot of science fiction, you know?
00:22:46
Speaker
So I think part of it is people have a perception of what science fiction is that is not necessarily connected to the actual experience of reading science fiction. And the same thing with comic books. They'll go, oh, I don't like comic books. And then you find out that, yeah, they've seen every comic book movie.
00:23:03
Speaker
They know the characters backwards and forwards. They're so ingrained in our culture. They can make Batman and Bane jokes. They just don't realize they are comic book fans, too, because they're not engaging with comic books, you know, in print form. So I think that the comic books and comic books are, to some extent, our national religion. They are the way that we have processed in the way that lots of other cultures had a pantheon of gods.
00:23:33
Speaker
We have comic book characters and they allow us to explore a lot of things that ancient religions explored through their pantheon of gods. And then science fiction allows us to do futurism in a comfortable way. It allows us to say, what if? And that's really vital. If we're going to be a thoughtful people, we're going to be a people who imagine what the world could be like.
00:23:55
Speaker
And often those kinds of things get dismissed. People will just go, oh, science fiction, comic books, those are for kids. I'm like, really? Thinking about the way the world should be absolutely needs to be an adult endeavor. We need to be thinking about the kind of world we might like to create. And thinking about how we feel, and one of the things comic books allow us to do is to think about how we feel about really huge questions, especially identity.
Comic Books as Modern Mythology
00:24:22
Speaker
so much of comic books are about, who is this person versus who are they really? Who is the hero underneath the mask? How does the character present themselves? And so it's a great opportunity for metaphors about race, about sexual identity. Not revealing who you really are is a lot of what LGBTQ folks wrestle with, especially in their younger lives. And so comic books offer really fertile ground for
00:24:51
Speaker
asking really difficult questions about how do we feel about those kinds of questions? Yeah, I really like your comments there. And I've, you know, I've definitely felt that dynamic. And, you know, you see, you see it, I think, within comic books, there's the typical narrative with Marvel Comics, you know, that that's been, you know, around with being more maybe cutting edge in the
00:25:16
Speaker
the typology of, you know, who heroes are, right, within Marvel computer to old DC ones. But you see a lot of independent comics publishers now really just trying to just really change what comics look like and the type of discussions that they're going to get into. And again, it's a small publisher. Sometimes it's a small publisher dynamic that helps create that. It doesn't always come from, you know, or sometimes rarely comes from the
00:25:46
Speaker
your standard media, right? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, Marvel and DC are both so big that they have to, you know, employ a lot of people and pay the bills. And so they're what they'll often do is something will come out in an indie form that's really edgy. And then Marvel and DC will wait until they know it's a safe bet and then they'll buy it. And so that's where some of the coolest stuff that's coming out from them comes from is it started off as an indie or the artist really got their start doing indie work. And then once Marvel was pretty sure that
00:26:15
Speaker
Instead of a comic book about a muscle-bound hero who goes around punching muscle-bound bad guys, what about a little girl who has a pet Tyrannosaurus? In a way, that's going to fly and then once they see, oh, people love this artist to work, now let's go pick that artist up.
00:26:36
Speaker
That's how a lot of that kind of stuff gets into those. And even there, they're looking for edgy stuff, but they've got to make sure that it kind of fits in the brand a little bit. But yeah, comics, Marvel's been asking difficult questions about race and X-Men and Black Panther and going back to the 60s.
Excerpt from 'Corporate High School'
00:26:57
Speaker
So they they've you know, really been pushing and they were able to do so because a lot of adults kind of weren't paying attention and so they were able to get kids to To you know back when they were more for kids to really think about some things And and you know, I their their parents may have been really disturbed By what their kids were contemplating, but they didn't take it seriously enough to find out so good for them. I
00:27:23
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate your comics there and you know definitely share a lot of the joy of that of that art form. Hey, Ben, I wanted to ask you, I'd ask you if you could
00:27:38
Speaker
Maybe give a little bit of a background to a piece, if you could read, as part of the program, a piece of yours that you've written. I was wondering if you could take a few minutes to do that, kind of tell us a little bit of the background, and just give us a little bit of your writing.
00:27:58
Speaker
Absolutely. So the piece I'm going to read, I went back and forth. A lot of the work that I've got doesn't fit into, you know, a short reading. And so I was looking for an excerpt that would fit timewise. And I think that the best one that kind of stands alone and gives folks a good feel
00:28:14
Speaker
is from corporate high school. Now the trick here for your listeners is my voice does not fit.
Art as Community Building
00:28:19
Speaker
So the protagonist of this story is 17. She's female. She's black. She's very, very different from me. So you have to use your imagination a little bit and imagine that this is coming to you in a voice other than that of a 43-year-old white guy.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah, so this is radio, this is radio, so yeah, absolutely. Right. So people can use their imaginations here a little bit, but the premise here, this is very near the beginning of corporate high school, and the character Harriet is about to, she's about to start at a new corporate high school. She's had to travel across the country.
00:28:53
Speaker
because her mother has been arrested and they are moving to be nearer to the corporate jail. Everything is run by the same corporation and so they're moving nearer to mom and therefore she has to start at a new school. So this is the night before she starts the school.
00:29:12
Speaker
Tomorrow is my first day at a new school, so of course I'm nervous. I'm a wreck. It affects everything I do. Like, I want to eat, but when I think about grabbing one of the cookies we bought on the train, then I think about not fitting into my jeans for the first day, and I walk around the kitchen in a little circle three times like a nervous dog, and then I give up on the cookies, come back to my suitcase, and try to pick out my clothes again. And that's a whole other nightmare. But I've taken a break from that task for too long now, so I'm diving in again. Okay, I think I've got my outfit picked out.
00:29:41
Speaker
I think it's a lot harder for girls than for guys. It's 21-14, so you'd think we'd be past that kind of sexism, but it's still there. When guys go clothes shopping, CorpMart basically gives them three choices of looks. They can get sports clothes, hunting clothes, and rock and roll clothes. The sports clothes are sweatpants or athletic shorts and t-shirts with the logos of sports teams on them. The hunting clothes are camo jeans and camo shirts or t-shirts with pictures of animals on them. The rock and roll clothes are black or blue jeans and t-shirts with the logos of bands on them.
00:30:11
Speaker
Those are the options. Guys can be jocks or hunters or musicians. If they want to be interesting, they can mix and match. Their outfits can say, I like this band, but my camo pants tell you I'm a really aggressive fan. Or these sweatpants tell you I like sports, but the animals on my shirt tell you I mostly play hunting video games. Or I'm wearing this team shirt because I like to watch football on TV, but these baggy jeans tell you I'm a cool, casual fan. There are maybe nine other combinations, but that's basically it.
00:30:40
Speaker
Girls' clothes are so much more difficult because even though the corporation wants to put us into three groups, they all get complicated by the sizes we can buy. The Young Women's Department has clothes for girls who want to look sexy fashionable, sexy athletic, and not sexy religious. But if you mix and match those, there are millions of messages you can send.
00:31:00
Speaker
Plus, it's totally okay for a girl to buy stuff in the young men's department, but if a guy does that, even in 2114, people are not cool with that. I don't think it's homophobia as much as a kind of horrified reaction that a guy doesn't want to fit in. But if a girl goes into the young men's department, it's like she's just looking for a new way to fit in. And people are okay with that. Which is unfair. It also means girls have even more choices to make when they're trying to decide what kind of messages to send.
00:31:26
Speaker
Like, if I got boys' genes that were really loose, that could mean I'm really casual about things, or it could mean I'm trying to rebel against gender stereotypes, or maybe that I like video games and don't play sports. If I paired them with a tight athletic top over a sports bra, it could mean I'm athletic, but also really conservative, and I'm hiding some tight athletic shorts underneath. Or it could mean I'm athletic, but I'm interested in guys who aren't. Or a dozen other things.
00:31:49
Speaker
Or I could get really tight white jeans in the sexy fashionable part of the young women's section, and then pair them with a loose rock and roll t-shirt from the young men's section, and that could mean I'm on the cutting edge of fashion, and I'm artistic, or that I'm a band groupie turbo slut, or if it's a Christian band, that I'm one of those sexy-for-Jesus girls, and the white is a sign of purity and the tight is a sign of sexy. Of course, white jeans would also send the message
00:32:12
Speaker
that I'm the kind of girl who never spills anything and doesn't ever feel nervous about getting her period, and that is definitely not me because I'm anxious about everything all the time, which is why I don't own any white jeans. So here's what I picked. For a top, I'm gonna wear a t-shirt from a band in Illinois. The band is called Go Go Dr. Claw, a reference to a cartoon show from the last century that I've never seen before, but the shirt is black and tight but not too tight, with a little cut at the neckline that's long but not too long, so it hints at the cleavage I don't really have, but doesn't actually show that I don't have any.
00:32:42
Speaker
Besides the cut, I like the shirt because it's rock and roll, but they don't have it at Corp Mart, which pretty much sums up my taste in music. For pants, I'm wearing these black and gray camo cargos that are too big for me. I'm skinny, so they ride low on my hips, showing off my best feature, my waistline, and hiding the fact that I don't have much in the way of hips or ass. Plus, because they're so loose, it might look like I'm the kind of person who doesn't really care what she wears and just grabbed something crumpled up next to the bed she rolled out of in the morning.
00:33:10
Speaker
I would like to pretend to be her, rather than the person who spent more than an hour trying to figure out what to wear tomorrow. Come to think of it, I'm going to throw them in a pile next to my bed right now so they have the right wrinkles and not the ones from the suitcase. Probably no one would notice that, but I would spend all day imagining that they were all noticing. Done. Bald up and crumpled on the far side of one of the hotel room's beds. I have to share a room with my dad until he gets us an apartment, and that could take a few days.
00:33:36
Speaker
He wouldn't like me tossing my clothes on the floor. He'd probably accept it if I explained why, or he'd grumble about how crazy teenage girls are and let me leave them there, but it's not worth trying to explain it. It's better if he just doesn't notice them. The most important part of the outfit is the part no one will see. It's the necklace that Selena gave me. She's my best friend in Illinois. They have a machine at CorpMart that will print military-style dog tags with whatever you want on them. She got me one that says, Love you, hermanita negrita, Selena.
00:34:04
Speaker
That's what she has called me since we became friends in first grade because I have dark skin and she speaks Spanish. Selena's fourth generation American. Or as she likes to say, my people came here as illegal immigrants back when Americans were treating illegals like shit. Back before Americans were illegal immigrants in Canada. That's how she talks. I miss her.
00:34:23
Speaker
It's only been a couple of days, but I wish she were here so bad. I wish she could go to the new school with me tomorrow. She'd protect me. She's shorter than I am now, but she's so ballsy that if anybody looked at me sideways, she'd get right up in their face and use every word in the corporate school's forbidden word list in two languages. And it's a long list of words. Instead, if anybody looks at me sideways, I'll just touch the necklace and know she's got my back. Maybe that will give me a little bit of courage. Right now, I need it.
00:34:56
Speaker
Thanks, Ben. And that was from corporate high school. Yes. So that's from corporate high school novel about a world where one corporation has taken over all of the schools and by taking over the schools has taken over the world. Because if you can train all the kids to believe that corporations should run everything, then you run everything.
Existential Questions in Artistry
00:35:17
Speaker
Thanks. Thanks for being that. I enjoyed that. And
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah, I just love to have a lot more lately where authors and singers and such can share kind of directly the stuff that you're working on. Share those art pieces. I want to move to a big question, Ben, which as a philosopher, you'll be OK. You'll be OK with. What is art?
00:35:45
Speaker
I love this question. It is huge. So I think for me, and I know there are very different opinions about this, but for me, art is the communicative exercise by which we create community. So we are trying to communicate with other people in order to create a shared experience and that we create a community around. And so that has a lot of component parts. Like art does have to be, to some extent, entertaining.
00:36:15
Speaker
Even the kind of art that is aggressive and that is trying to be objectionable tries to be objectionable in such a way as to include at least some people into it. So if I'm screaming at one group, I am saying to another group, join me in screaming at that other group.
00:36:33
Speaker
So there is something about it that is always supposed to be entertaining. We are trying to welcome people in to create a community. And then we've got to have something to say. We're saying, OK, now that we are joined in this way, this is something that bonds us. And that could be ideas. And that could be just the entertainment experience. But in some way, we're creating a shared experience. And I think that
00:36:59
Speaker
And then once we've created that experience, art serves the function of joining us towards some kind of common purpose. And that can be wonderful. I don't want to be hyperbolic, but I think anything people do together, art can do, if that makes sense. Art is what joins us so that we can accomplish the things that human beings in concert can accomplish. And so, you know, we have put human beings on the moon.
00:37:26
Speaker
very much hope we will put people on Mars. It is not an exaggeration to say art played a big role in that, in making people believe that was possible, in bringing together the people who did that. Art may also bring together the people who literally will destroy this world.
00:37:46
Speaker
collective action by human beings is not always good. And art can definitely participate in the worst of human action as well. But art is the thing that joins us. Yeah, and listening to your definition, I definitely thought about a lot of the implications for art through politics.
00:38:12
Speaker
art, ability to organize, express. And like you said, the kind of there's a popular element, you know, to your definition that you have to be communicating something to somebody in making some connection that way. And that connection can go in different directions to put it in. Well, and I come across, I have come across artists who don't want to
00:38:38
Speaker
think about audience at all who do not really have any, they will say, I don't care if this, you know, if anybody reads what I write. And I'll say, well, then write, keep it hiring. Like, you do need to be thinking about your audience. You do need to care enough. And one of the things I tell my students is, if somebody chooses to read your writing, they are giving you the single most valuable thing they can ever possibly possess, time.
00:39:02
Speaker
and you owe them to do all the legwork to give them something that is worthy of that time. I do think that artists have a real giant responsibility, not just socially, not just to say this is
00:39:17
Speaker
the way the world should be, even if we're writing something that's really light or, you know, creating something, you know, creating a dance or music that's merely for, you know, entertainment, we still have a responsibility to do it in such a way that it is worthy of the time of the people who watch that dance or listen to that song. Like we have to be worth that. Yeah. And taking the audience into consideration, that brings up that whole, you know, that whole other dynamic. And I think you're right. I think there's strong views around
00:39:47
Speaker
You know, I think you could easily talk to an artist that does express the strong view of saying, I don't know what's out there in the world. This came from me and receive it as you will. Right. Versus the fact that you do have to consider a lot of times that you're trying to do or say something with what you're what you're what you're creating. One of the just a couple more questions, Ben, but related to that,
00:40:17
Speaker
is the question of why do you create art, right? And I found that recently asking this question, you know, within the pandemic, that general question of what you do with your time. Do you ever step back and say, you know, why am I writing this book or what am I trying to express with this? The general question of why you're trying to create the art that you do.
00:40:43
Speaker
Oh, gosh, yes. Well, I am kind of a rolling ball of anxiety. So I'm constantly second guessing myself. And I think like so many artists, I really struggle with imposter syndrome. You know, I think as soon as as soon as I turn my back, everybody goes, that guy actually thinks he's an artist like he thinks he thinks he's a writer. So I think I expect that there are a lot of artists who really struggle with that.
00:41:07
Speaker
So yeah, I'm constantly thinking, is this worthwhile? Am I wasting my time? And I'll revert back to that second grader who's wandering around the playground saying, is any of this going to matter in 200 years? I can easily fall into that trap. It's very natural for me to go, maybe none of this matters. And then I have to remind myself,
00:41:28
Speaker
Actually, remind myself might not even be the right way to say it, because maybe it's justifying to myself. I'm not sure, in all honesty, if I write out of a sense of compulsion, if I write because I'm a writer and I love it and it's what I do and therefore I would do it anyway, and then I justify it to myself that I'm trying to do something valuable with that writing, or if it's the other way around.
00:41:52
Speaker
Is it that I want to do something in the world that's positive and because I'm a writer, that becomes my outlet? I don't know which way it goes. And it could be that I can't consciously know. It could be that I am justifying the inverse to myself. But I do try and think about how could this be received? How could this be valuable?
00:42:16
Speaker
Uh to to readers, you know and and engage in a larger conversation And it depends on the art that i'm working with right now i'm working on a book of poetry and it's very intimate kind of uh work in terms of This this is the kind of work that I want somebody to pick up the book of poetry and go I feel a one-on-one connection with this poet. This is somebody I know And so it's a lot of social themes. It's very very personal uh, whereas, you know some of my uh
00:42:44
Speaker
My larger works, my most recent novel that came out, Don't Read This Book, is absolutely about asking some of the absolute biggest questions I could think of. It's a book about, essentially about death and identity. Can people who have been, can specifically straight white males who have been told that what we do always wins, possibly comprehend death? Or if we actually thought about death, would it paralyze us?
00:43:13
Speaker
And so it's asking some big questions in the context of a book about vampires and werewolves and a golem and you know Yeah, but that's I love the these funny character. The king of trolls is absolutely fucking hysterical Like I love these kind of fun characters But the questions that they're posing are really big ones in some cases and then in some cases like the book of poetry I'm just saying like hey, I'm here. Does anybody else feel that you know? I
00:43:42
Speaker
Right, right. Well, speaking of big questions, how about this one? Why is there something rather than nothing? The biggest question, and like a good philosopher, I would break that down, right? So the presupposition there is that there is something rather than nothing, and I will stipulate that. I do believe that.
00:44:08
Speaker
conception of the fact that there is something rather than nothing, though, is pretty limited. So I'm deeply agnostic. And so I do not know what the nature of the reality that I inhabit even is. I don't pretend that I do not feign certainty. So I I think even like the cogito is fundamentally bullshit. Like, you know, I think therefore I am. No, that's not logical. I think therefore there's a thinker is probably as
00:44:38
Speaker
as far as we can go from there, or I think therefore I think. So is there an experience that there is someone having? Yes, that is the experience that I am conscious of. What is the nature of that reality?
00:44:57
Speaker
I am not 100% confident that there is a material world. I think that is beyond what is knowable. That's numinal and not phenomenal. In the phenomena that I experience, let's say there is something, but I can't tell you what it is. Then the question is, why does that exist? Within the sphere of the phenomena,
00:45:23
Speaker
So within what I have experienced, what justifies the existence within this sphere, I do not know. There very well could be something outside of my experience that says this is why we created this, but I am somebody who, you know, used to have a deep religious faith and totally lost it. And so I don't know why this existence persists.
00:45:51
Speaker
why I'm experiencing what I'm experiencing. Within this sphere, I am trying to make this world as good a place as I can make it. If I presuppose that other people exist, then from there, I wanted them to have the best experience they can have. But for me, there's a lot of unknowns. I am learning on a day-to-day basis how to make choices without certainty.
00:46:21
Speaker
So without knowing that other people exist, how can I make their experience as good as possible? Without knowing that this universe exists beyond the phenomena that I'm experiencing, how can I make it the best universe for my son to live in that I possibly can? Assuming he is experiencing the same phenomena, I want his to be a real positive experience. But it's not based on some kind of concrete material certainty for me.
00:46:47
Speaker
Yeah, and you view it, even within that, and listening to your explanation, and you look at it in a very moral way, which brings in a very interesting dimension to it. It's kind of like, how do I exist here? And how do I interact with others? Which definitely connects back to the discussion we talked about within politics and art.
Exploring Gorman's Work and Listener Engagement
00:47:12
Speaker
Hey, Ben.
00:47:14
Speaker
Can you let the listeners know the best way to connect with you in your art and your publishing company so they can find you in the other works that you support? Sure. So the best way, the way that I wish everybody would do it is
00:47:35
Speaker
through your local independent bookstore. Independent bookstores are really hurting right now. And so if you've got a local independent bookstore that is advertising that they are doing deliveries, some of them are doing deliveries, a lot of them are doing, you know, like outside the door contactless pickup.
00:47:50
Speaker
Please give them a call, order my books, they'll set them out in front of the building and you can go get them and you can keep those places alive. Also, if you're like me and you're buying a lot of stuff on Amazon, no judgment, all my books are on Amazon.
00:48:10
Speaker
you know, Powell's, Barnes and Noble. So whatever is your online bookstore of choice. But I do encourage folks to check out. You will probably pay a premium because you are helping that independent bookstore live, but that's a good thing to have in your community. So if you've got one, go that way. In terms of just other stuff that I'm up to, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. Both of my handles are at teacher Gorman, all one word. So teacher Gorman,
00:48:38
Speaker
Instagram and Twitter and I'm on, you know, I got an author page on Facebook and I'm real active there. But Twitter tends to be my favorite lately because that's where I'm getting the most up to the minute news on the world falling apart. Yeah, right. I'm paying a lot of attention to Twitter lately. Oh, man. Hey, Ben, I got I just want to let you know, I appreciate your work as a public school teacher working in the labor movement.
00:49:03
Speaker
you know, working in important ways and advocating for folks. I just want to let you know, I appreciate that. I really enjoyed spending the time and getting to know a little bit more about your thoughts on some big questions. So thanks so much. Thank you for all the help you gave to all of us in the labor movement with your work in the labor movement. That's absolutely vital.
00:49:29
Speaker
You know, that's we are we are it's an uphill battle a lot of the time, but we're fighting for not just workers, but for everyone that those workers serves. And for us, that's our kids. So I feel very inspired by the work that we get to do. We're lucky. It's an honor to get to serve the next generation. Yeah, I appreciate that. Hey, you know, the thing is to Ben, we're going to win. I'll tell you that too. We're going to win.
Mutual Appreciation and Conclusion
00:49:56
Speaker
Yeah, well, in the long run, you know, the arc of history, you know, it does bend toward justice. A society cannot persist that doesn't take care of its children. And so we'll either figure that out or we won't be here. We win or we perish. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, thanks, Ben Gorman. Thanks for your time on the podcast and hope to hear from you soon. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for giving me the opportunity. All right. Bye now.
00:50:28
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing.