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S2:EP11: Winter Wellbeing with Tom Oxley & WoW
26 Plays5 months ago
Join us as we explore Winter Wellbeing with Tom Oxley, founder of Bamboo Mental Health and a leading expert in workplace mental health. Tom shares practical advice for managing winter’s unique challenges, including financial pressures, grief, and addiction, offering strategies to support ourselves and others during this demanding season.
Jo Woodward also joins us from WOW (Ways of Wellbeing), BaxterStorey's wellbeing ERG, who bravely shares her personal experiences of loss during the holidays, and Andy Aston, Head of Chef Partnerships & Communities, who highlights the power of connection and community for mental health. Whether spending the season alone or surrounded by family, this episode provides actionable insights for navigating winter with resilience and care.
Be sure to subscribe to our podcast to stay updated on future episodes, and check out the resources mentioned to access additional support.
Resources Mentioned:
- Alcohol Concern: Support and resources for managing alcohol use.
- A Christmas Against Poverty: Help for those experiencing financial struggles.
- Daddy Blackbird by Caroline Roodhouse: A powerful true story of a family navigating life after losing a loved one to suicide
- Resilient Grieving by Lucy Hone: A guide to navigating grief and building strength.
- Gabor Maté - In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: A deep dive into addiction and its roots.
- The Easy Way to Stop Drinking by Allen Carr: A resource for overcoming alcohol addiction.
- Money Saving Expert: Supporting with your financials
- The Man Cave UK: A safe space for men to talk, seek support, and address mental health challenges.
- My Black Dog: A peer-to-peer support service offering help for those struggling with their mental health.
- The Burnt Chef Project: A movement tackling mental health stigma within the hospitality industry.
- Kelly’s Cause: Mental health first aid training to support the hospitality industry.
Other Support:
- Samaritans: Free, 24/7 support for anyone in distress. Call 116 123 or email jo@samaritans.org.
- CALM: Preventing male suicide with a helpline at 0800 58 58 58 and webchat available 5 PM–midnight.
- Papyrus UK: Suicide prevention for young people via HOPELINEUK. Call 0800 068 41 41, text 07860 039967, or email pat@papyrus-uk.org.
- Shout 85258: Free, 24/7 text support. Text SHOUT to 85258.
- Rethink Mental Illness: Resources, advice, and support on mental health challenges.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Mental Health in Winter
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to this special episode of FYI, the Back to the Story podcast. I'm Sam Wacom, and I'm your host for today's episode, and we will be diving into some really important conversations around mental health, wellbeing, and the challenges that come with the winter season.
00:00:16
Speaker
Before we begin, we would like to advise our listeners that this episode includes discussions about sensitive topics and real life stories on suicide and addiction, which may be triggering to some. If these subjects are difficult for you, we encourage you to take care of yourself while listening.
00:00:33
Speaker
As always, the podcast description includes links to resources and support that we will be discussing today.
Meet the Experts
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm joined today by three incredible guests. Tom Oxley, a workplace mental health expert and founder of Bamboo Mental Health. Jo Woodward from our learning and development team and a member of our WoW.
00:00:51
Speaker
ways of wellbeing, employee resources group, and Andy Aston, our head of shared partners in communities, a new chair of WOW. We're so grateful to have them here today to share their stories, expertise and advice. We hope you enjoy the listen. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining our um winter wellbeing episode.
Workplace Mental Health Initiatives
00:01:12
Speaker
ah Tom, can you tell us a bit about yourself, Bamboo Mental Health, and what you do, please? Hi, Sam. Thanks for having me on. ah I set up bamboo mental health more than 10 years ago, because I thought mental health was a thing, obviously, but was beginning to become a thing in workplaces. And I reviewed as part of a bigger project with the Department of Health and Time to Change about 40 odd different workplaces. And I felt that there was a much needed conversation around supporting people. I think that organisations wanted to do the right thing, but didn't know what that was.
00:01:50
Speaker
And certainly mental health as a topic was rising to the surface. It had been in me and it had been in my family for many years, but it wasn't really part of that wider community conversation. So now these days I do talks, I do training and I review organizations. And I really believe that every organization can support every employee on mental health. It doesn't mean wrapping everybody up in cotton wool, but it does mean being there when life gives us a kicking from time to time. Thank you, Tom. Hey, Joe. Thanks for joining us. Joe is part of our learning and and development development team and a member of our backstory ERG Wow, which is ways of wellbeing.
Personal Wellbeing Journeys
00:02:32
Speaker
Can you tell us a bit about why you wanted to be part of this episode and also how are you found being part of Wow? Hi, Sam. Thank you. So yeah, I'm a learning and development trainer with the story. I joined our L and D team in April of this year.
00:02:46
Speaker
And it's been an amazing experience, but one of my favorite parts of that is being able to talk to so many of our people about all of the resources that we've got available for them within BaxterStory. And then a year and a half for ago as well, I also joined WoW. I've been on my own wellbeing journey for a long time. I've had a few very low moments and some were easier to move on from than others. So I really want to keep wellbeing at the top of the agenda for all of my personal and professional relationships.
00:03:16
Speaker
I think at this time of year, there's so many added pressures to our team members. It's super busy. You're working overtime for events. You might be out for Christmas parties and then catching up with friends in the evenings or the weekends. But when everything stops and those quiet days set in, those without support or people around them, they can feel quite lost. So I really want to shine a light on that and what we can be doing to supporting our teams, but also those conversations that we can be having around this as well. Thank you Jo and if this isn't your first time with us you've been on the podcast quite a few times now as our listeners I'm sure are aware you're our Head of Shared Partners and Communities and you're now the Chair of WoW. How are you and can you tell us about your journey becoming the Chairman of WoW as well? Hi Sam yeah thank well look thank firstly I wanted to be on here just to
00:04:08
Speaker
highlight the great information that we've got available to us, available to all our employees. We've got some great information. I want us to talk about that today and how we can signpost our team members to the right places. Personally, in a couple of weeks, it'll be nine years since I was hit hard, two years out of work from a breakdown, from a lot of mentally, I suffered quite badly, nine years in a couple of weeks. And I guess more than anything, it's about highlighting, it's okay to talk about it. I want our team members to feel from today, they can actually reach out and ask for help. That's the really most important thing. It's okay to talk about some of the tough subjects that we might hit on today. And I think when it comes to the ways of well-being group, it's been a journey. I was on it at the very beginning, three and a half, four years ago, and it started. And I recently come back into the fold and taken over as chairman. And why did I want to take over as chairman? Because i I guess, why not? You know, it's an opportunity to really change the culture within our organization, you know, make it a positive experience when talking about mental health, you know, talk about the hard hitting stuff that is is affecting all of us. We'll all go through challenging times, as Tom and mentioned. and
00:05:05
Speaker
I think I want the culture to be positive, mindful, you know, and inclusive. And I want everyone to feel that they've got someone to reach out to and they've got somewhere to go and they're signposted to the right stuff that that's available to them, you know, and they're not going to shy away from it. For me, it's personal, but it's also, it's like we can make a real difference. Myself and Joe recently just been working on a great project, which will be coming out soon and connect along with this podcast. And it's been great to have those conversations. And I think the WOW group as a whole,
00:05:31
Speaker
I did a fantastic job. It's a job that you volunteer for and so we appreciate everyone that's on it so yeah that's kind of why I'm here today and yes I've been on many podcasts so hopefully everyone doesn't get bored of hearing in my voice. No not at all Andy, you've got lots of good things to share and talk about so thank you for joining us again.
00:05:47
Speaker
I suppose our first topic that we talk about is mental health in the workplace and especially around winter wellbeing.
Winter Mental Health Challenges
00:05:54
Speaker
Tom, you've been in mental health um for over a decade, as you said, worked with 50 plus different businesses. From your perspective, what are the key mental health challenges employees and not just employees, anyone face during the winter seasons?
00:06:10
Speaker
Yeah, well, they've they've they've got all the ones that they have all year round, but they've got some special ones for Christmas. You know, if Christmas is your thing, right. And there's a narrative that this time of the year, December is exciting and it's full of light and festivities and it's magical. There's a sense that it's supposed to be perfect. And we bring a lot to that party.
00:06:38
Speaker
You know we we we make an effort for our kids and as kids we grow into adults and then try and do the same thing. And that's just not everybody's story. I mean it is magical in some ways but it's also not. It's also expensive and lonely and disruptive and overwhelming.
00:06:57
Speaker
And so you've got those two different forces but work at work and all that at the same time as concentrated deadlines around trying to take time off around new year. You've got the financial experiences of gifting and debt and all that. And you probably got extra work, particularly if you're in hospitality. You've also got this kind of idea that you're supposed to be having a wonderful time and out and partying and celebrating. That's a lot in the recipe.
00:07:24
Speaker
for people. And and it's not it's not a surprise. In fact, it's very reasonable that we're going to feel that there's a lot to take on. you We live a lot of our lives already 100%. So you asked me to work 10% more. You asked me to spend 20% more. You asked me to eat 15% more. Where are all these percentages coming from? At some point, stuff spills spills over. So there's quite an intense time for organizations you might have other things going on simultaneously like you know budget planning and that kind of thing. So just this as as Taylor Swift said, there's a lot going on at the moment and and that's just December. So we've also got January and February to come where we might have laid our own traps for our anxiety and depression because we might have overdone it on the booze and celebrating. So I've got that that anxiety that comes after a big vested period.
00:08:22
Speaker
I might be exhausted because I've been burning the candle at both ends. I might be in debt and it's going to be dark. And, you know, the hospitality kind of ask yourself questions. Joe said it being out and having all that festive stuff is great, but thereafter, that's what happens in those quieter moments. There's more lonely moments where I start to reflect and I start to look at myself in the mirror, like physically look at myself in the mirror, like my tummy and realize where all the meds by is.
00:08:53
Speaker
But also, I think, goodness me, you know, who are you? What are you doing? You said we ask ourselves questions like that. So I think there's a lot going on and all with a backdrop of it's supposed to be wonderful. That was intense. It's intense. It is intense. And I think you're right. I think when we talk about winter, we just assume, oh, it's up until Christmas. But it's that backlash of all of that spending, all of that indulging potentially, if you'd like to do so. So we spoke about what that looks like, but what can managers or businesses do during those months to help manage burnout or stress and help team members look after their wellbeing?
Supporting Employees in Winter
00:09:33
Speaker
Because it's quite a big one this, but I think the principles remain the same all year round. but I think during this period, like knowing it's going to be intense for people.
00:09:43
Speaker
knowing that things are going to be intensified. So for example, if I am separating or not in a relationship, for example, but I've experienced bereavement or I'm in grief at the moment, that's intensified. I think we've got to make sure that your team is a space or place or group where we have a safe space to be able to speak up and that that's actively managed away from the heat of a busy Friday, Saturday night or service or whatever it is. but That's a good theory, but it's about planning in, checking in with your people. It's about multiple opportunities to speak up. I might have five seconds with you behind the bar. I might have five seconds with you in the stock room to go, how are you doing out at 10? Where you are you at? How's it going? you know Just to be active about managing this stuff.
00:10:42
Speaker
in the knowledge that people are really going to be in in the red zone in a lot of ways. That's my first thing, I think, for managers and organizations, plan to have these conversations, lots of contact points, and make it clear that you've been there too. You've experienced some of this stuff. I'm not a big fan of people being vulnerable all the time, as in giving out all my medical notes, but you can let your team know. You've been there, you feel stuff, you're there,
00:11:10
Speaker
And if they need you, somebody's got their back. Yeah. Thank you. And I suppose if it was to be in that management position and someone comes to you with a problem, obviously empathy and listening is what you would recommend, but are there any other additional tools that you could like provide or or help? Yeah. so i mean There are a couple of like official tools that and people in mental health and workplaces like to use. One is an informal wellbeing action plan. That's something that's developed by Mind and other people, the charity. and And more formally, ah there's a something called a stress risk assessment, which is from the health and safety executive. But again, that's much more formal. I think one of the best things you can do today at zero cost is to ask your people what they need.
00:11:58
Speaker
What their needs are they are after all the expert in what they're going through so you can as a manager as an organization You don't have to have all the answers, but you can have some good questions such as What's your energy like for this time of year? What does good working look like for you? What are the signs? When you're not well, what do you want me to do when I see? those signs What's our safe word?
00:12:26
Speaker
when something's gone wrong and you need to take a timeout. What does that timeout look like? So I was working with a brick manufacturer and they have an expression ton of bricks. And all you need to do is send a picture of a ton of bricks or say ton of bricks to somebody. And one of the mental health first datas of champions will come and find you on a production line or in the factory environment, get you away for a few minutes and have a champion.
00:12:52
Speaker
It's a lovely little way of just building it into that working thing. so And I think that's something we can all do with this. We feel so intensely that we have to have all the answers. If I need 10 minutes sobbing somewhere quiet and then I'll redo my makeup and get back out again, then that's what I need. But if your manager doesn't know that, then I might be kind of like flustering around going, oh my God, how can I help? yeah So having that conversation in the cold light days, I think a really, really good way of yeah planning things. and to just give in your people the space to feel like they can communicate, however that is, if it's for a picture or in words. Yeah, and and on anything. So we're talking about mental health. If I'm in a point in my cycle where my energy is just low, or I've got excess energy, i then if we can have this conversation, then great, and we both know where we are. So I think when we get wellbeing right,
00:13:47
Speaker
It's not something we do after all the hard work and when things have gone wrong. It's actually wired into the working process. It's an outcome. Good work. Well-being. It's not just the thing I do with a yoga mat and a broccoli smoothie at the weekend. It's in my day-to-day work. Thank you, Tom. Andy Jo, as members of WOW, what are your experiences of working alongside people in hospitality specifically?
00:14:11
Speaker
for those experiencing mental health problems or what support managers on the floor be given to their teams? I think a lot of it, like Tom was saying, it's bringing that communication and that conversation into the daily working life. People need to feel safe, like we were saying. I think from my own experience, it's definitely admitting that you need help. That can feel like the hardest step. i was Years ago, I built up the courage to confide in a friend only to be dismissed until that her life had been harder than mine, and that her. But it did teach me that mental health isn't a competition. Everyone's experience is valid. And we must create spaces where people feel safe to share, where they're free from judgment, because we're all so different. Our experiences, our lives, what we've lived through, you can't comment and you can't judge. In Baxter's story, we support everyone.
00:15:05
Speaker
regardless of your title or your length of service with us. We have mental health first aiders and all members of WOW who are always open to conversations, to support with signposting you if you aren't comfortable with talking to your manager. We've got incredible resources. I always say Aviva Digicare is one of the best benefits I've ever heard of, yet alone used. I think our biggest problem there is just making it as visible as possible to every single member of our This benefit is available to everyone. So we just need to make sure that we're talking about it. Is it in your pre-shift briefs? Is it in your team meetings? Have you got notice on your notice boards? Just every day asking, how are you? I mean it, listen to the answers, but then pick up on it as well. Communication is vital and it's a free tool that we all have. Thank you, Joe. Oh, Joe, got all my words there.
00:15:59
Speaker
Again, I'll echo what both Tom and Joe have said, but for me, again, I heard it there, but listen, you've got to listen. Don't judge and show genuine empathy. we really got you know and If we do that, then it will give people the you know the courage to reach out. And I think when someone reached out for help, you know we have a responsibility to give them some time because this could be the first steps for them you know to get a bright future. And that's the one thing, when they reach out, if we turn it back, and and Joe mentioned there,
00:16:26
Speaker
then we're potentially sending someone down a very dark place. So, you know, I see it as a privilege if somebody reaches out to me and I've had many, um um I'm grateful that many people have reached out to me in our business and externally. And we've had some wonderful conversations and and that comes from me. My experience, as Joe mentioned, I reached out a long time ago to somebody.
00:16:42
Speaker
And the world wasn't ready. I just felt like we weren't ready for those kinds of conversations as we are now. And coaching my mentor did a lot coaching for me. So coaching for me is something that I use all the time because it it allows for vulnerability. Using my experiences that I've been through.
00:17:00
Speaker
and sharing up somebody else, that's where we can start to fully understand the needs of someone who may be going for a difficult moment. So coaching is really important, it's quite easy to do. Find a really quiet room, maybe go out of the office and go for that walk that you can try and make some time to do that yeah and then be vulnerable with somebody, don't be afraid to be vulnerable. And that comes through culture change. Thank you Andy. I've heard a lot of and comments around like give your team support and listen but what if you do what if you're an employer or anybody and you go to someone and you like Andrew you said the world wasn't ready for you when you had that conversation um all those years ago what advice would you give to someone if they go to a manager or go to a friend or a loved one and they can't give you that
00:17:45
Speaker
support that you're looking for, perhaps they're not in a place to offer support. What advice would you give to that person who's looking for support? Where else can they go? What else can they do?
Finding Support Beyond Family
00:17:56
Speaker
I'm just reflecting that sometimes the place you might most want to go for your support is not the place where you're going to get the right kind of care for you. And I include families in that. When we have people who are close to us and they care for us, it's inconvenient for them, for you to be stressed, anxious, depressed, low. So they might try and attempt some kind of corrective listening to you. So they'll say things like, oh, but you've got this. Oh, you know, but you were right because you've got this. They're not properly hearing you. A classic one that they'll say, if you rig them to tell them about a problem, it's like, so they'll end the conversation with, as long as you're all right. And you go, I literally just told you, I'm not all right.
00:18:43
Speaker
But I understand it's really hard for people to land that. So instead, you've got free, fast, confidential access to those listening lines through Viva Digicare. So I think that's very good. we We do have to understand that sometimes people don't like bringing an O-800 number. They don't know what's either on the other end of it, but they are there. We can also, if we need to tell somebody, a great tip is to bring somebody else with you.
00:19:12
Speaker
So there are three people in that conversation and it's much easier to have that adult conversation rather than entering into what can become more of a parent-child conversation. Bringing somebody else into the room with a manager, somebody who's good at advocating for you, good at just holding that in and people's behaviours are always better when there's somebody else in the room. So that can be a good technique as well. And then the other thing I'm a massive advocate for is ah paid for therapy. Now you probably get access to some short-term counselling through your employer system. to That is the absolute lifeboat and I have climbed into that lifeboat two or three times in my life so it's really worth it. But you can also access
00:19:54
Speaker
private therapeutic support on specific things. And you can get to choose what that alert looks like. It doesn't have to be kind of leather couch to tell me about the relationship with your mother and father type therapy. It can be coaching or mentoring or just somebody who's been there and done it a bit and has got some advice for you. It comes in many forms. Thank you. I suppose, yeah, youre you you've hit the nail on the head, having that extra support. If you go to someone, have an extra person there, but obviously we have the employee system program and we have a group of digital care but for listeners out there who aren't working for Back to the Story, paid therapy on it that they can reach out for and get additional support there as well. and and Andy and Joe, is there anything else you wanted to add to that? Yeah, I was just going to add in there, as Tom said, I think sometimes the person you want to reach out to might not be ready for that conversation either. I know it sounds a bit strange, but I talked to a stranger in the end, and it was somebody I'd heard of and knew, but I just approached them.
00:20:49
Speaker
And I think don't give up because somebody will listen to you. Just in that moment, and they might not be ready, but don't give up. I would say just look inside your organization or looking around your group and just, it could be a neighbor. It could be going into a church. It could be going to homeless shelter and having a conversation with somebody. Somebody will listen to you. You'll find and you'll find an ear. So don't give up. that They're trialing stuff in America sometimes where people just talk to bots. um So there isn't actually another human.
00:21:17
Speaker
But the act of finding your words, writing them out, messaging, you know, AI, you know, is going to be much more playing a role in this in years to come. That is quite a therapeutic to do that and it stops it being kind of all shameful and suppressed and on the inside and we can go and just get it out. And people also talk to their pets a lot. Dogs make very good therapists. They don't tell you what you should do. They love you just as much. They don't judge you like Andy said. They take you out for a walk.
00:21:48
Speaker
you out in the light. I think we could be more dog about this. I think there's also there's a part of some self-education as well of like really soul searching into yourself to try and work yourself out. and A really good book I read once was The Chimp Paradox and it's learning how your brain kind of works and then kind of almost taking back control of your own life and bits because that's what it's massively about when you're struggling with your mental health You don't feel in control of your emotions, your actions, or life. You're just along for the ride. And I think learning how to take back control is vital as well.
00:22:28
Speaker
and So we've unpacked quite a bit already and I want us to talk about the financial pressures that come during the holiday season.
Employer's Role in Financial Support
00:22:35
Speaker
Obviously with the time of the year there's an increase in bills, there's also the added pressure of gifting and spending money on presents, new outfits for Christmas parties and all these other things that can take the financial burden to not only our team members but outside of the workplace.
00:22:56
Speaker
So Tom, my question for you is do employers have a responsibility to support their team members during this time financially? Is it having extra grace in this time of year ah around Christmas parties and all of the stuff that comes around that time of year and do you think ah the employers take the responsibility of offering support and resources to help people manage their financial wellbeing? And I suppose also, what advice would you give to an individual who is seeking financial support this time of year? I don't think it's always the employer's responsibility to manage our personal finances.
00:23:47
Speaker
in the same way that I wouldn't want my employer to manage my personal relationship. Understanding that sometimes personal finance goes belly up and I get into actual debt. Again, we need to get talking about it. We need to get active on sharing support resources. There is financial support and information available through employee assistance programs and legal support. So it's not just mental health and few sessions counseling. There's other stuff in there. This is really good. And we can get curious about what people's needs are.
00:24:27
Speaker
So for example, I might ask my team, you know, who's up for more work? Who's up for the overtime? Who doesn't need the overtime? And then we can try and get that balance for some of the slightly absurd costs that happen around this time. Things like Secret Santas or expenses, you know, people being forced to buy posh frock for an event or something like that, perhaps even suggesting that rather than having an event that revolves around alcohol and nighttime,
00:24:56
Speaker
we might do a daytime activity type event. you know There are alternatives here and it's about offering choice within the organization so that people don't feel compelled to come and do what everyone else is doing. Plenty of people won't want to do that.
00:25:12
Speaker
They might be ah sober, teetotal, in recovery, we've got no idea. Or they might be, obviously, religiously excluded, for example, their spirituality might suggest that they don't want to do the booze thing. I just think I'm not a fan of snuffing out the candle on or or partying here. That's not what I'm saying at all, but I think you'll provide options for people. I think in that way,
00:25:35
Speaker
you just stop this conversation around money being something kind of hidden away and suppressed and shameful and humiliating and you can kind of more actively manage it, at least on the surface. price Yeah, given your team members the option to choose as well, what advice would you give to anyone who's struggling financially during in the winter months? What advice would you give them to seek support without feeling vulnerable?
00:26:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think get educated around where you can make your savings. Someone like Martin Lewis, our money savings expert, is just a such a great place to go for tips and tricks and that kind of thing. There's other charities, and this is quite an unusual sounding one, but bear with me. There's Christians Against Poverty. You do not have to be a Christian to access what is some excellent support and advice around finances. And the other thing is for you and your responsibilities here that you can say no to stuff. And what what we need with that is other people to go, oh Tom's just said no to that, that's fine. We're not going to have a go at Tom because he's not coming. We're not going to call Tom the mood hoover just because he doesn't do what we want to do. So I think there's there's a bit of active compassion there as well.
00:26:52
Speaker
I think you're right there. The peer pressure piece, Tom, can be quiet with most things really. you can be the The peer pressure that comes with the guilt, the, you know, the, the ribbing, whatever it might, you you feel you're right where you just sit there. It's okay to say no. And I've recently started saying no to stuff and it it does upset some people, but for the sake of my own wellbeing and my own mental health, I think it's okay to say no and and not, obviously not doing it in a way that is, you know, really, really rude and stuff, but doing away, do you know what? I'm okay. You know, but I think I'm just going to stay home with my dog and I'm just going to have a nice evening or whatever. that's It's okay to say, no, I really think that's an important message there as well. It's okay to say, no. And I think if if it's done in the right way, people will understand and we should be more understanding because we've all got different beliefs and we've all got different wants and needs now, especially as you get older, you you look for a bit more comfort, but no, I think you're right. I agree. Thank you. Andy, my next question is is for you. What and other advice and resources would you suggest to team members during this time?
00:27:47
Speaker
I think the challenging thing is, especially with anything, if you're on your own at this time is trying to make friends or trying to come out of your comfort zone, because I'm terrible at it. And, and I think I would suggest is first and foremost, to stay connected in some way or another. You got to stay connected. And how my nine years have been Andy today has been to come outside of my comfort zone, and be curious um and stay connected to people. And that's really tough.
00:28:11
Speaker
because you've got to push yourself to do things you don't feel comfortable doing. There's some great charities out there as well. The Bird Shaft Project, Kelly's Cores, My Black Dog. You can see their social media blog posts. You can contact them text messaging or you can give them a call. So there's some great charities out there doing some great stuff that you can get involved in. That's just free to name a few. And then internally for us, again, you know, we've got the manager support guide to managing mental health, which is a great piece around speaking and there around journaling, you know. i think I think stuff like journaling is really important, you know, you put your feelings down on paper. So there's some great stuff available to us, you know, on the vine as well. Thank you, Andy. A question for you. I think what Andy's touch on is really important about keeping connected, but for those who may be feeling a bit more introverted or may not want to get out there, what advice would you give them to try and overcome that or allow them to connect at home virtually, maybe? Yeah.
00:29:05
Speaker
So there's some really interesting research that suggests that social interaction and social connection has better long-term health outcomes than not smoking, believe it or not. So it's that important for us physiologically to feel connected. Right. So massive caveat coming in your way. I can be lonely in a room full of people.
00:29:32
Speaker
or in a team and or at a party. or they So it's about you understanding where you're at with this. And there's a big difference between choosing to be alone because I want to introvert, because I need quiet, because my autism is overwhelmed by light food, hecticness.
00:29:57
Speaker
for examples, and somebody who's gone, actually, I'm lonely and i I feel that I'm missing out and I'm unhappy about it and I want to change things. So if your truth, if your story is one where it's all too much for me, I need to ride out these dates and just do my own quiet thing, then that is okay. And it's all right for you to tell people, this is my plan, this is what I want to do,
00:30:25
Speaker
I really do want to see you, but please can I come to you on that? That's all right. the The other side of it is I'm lonely, I need people, and I end up, you know, in care-seeking, and withdrawal from hobbies and communities and groups and that that would would be a marker of of depression. so So just knowing where you're at and what you need is really important, and saying to people, I get really sad and lonely at this time.
00:30:53
Speaker
I need to be around people. It would be great if we could do something and invite me and that kind of thing. And I think it's all right to do that. And then people will be going, yeah, so great. Yeah, sure. Come along. And just to be able to allow somebody to choose the way they want to play this. I think it's big. And you have choice. We have agency with it, but I think we so often don't tell anybody that's our plan. And so people are making the assumption that we need to be included with everything all the time and they just don't.
00:31:22
Speaker
masked or unmasked then we've got to get a bit more intelligent a bit more nuanced about what people want and when they keep saying this but when they say I actually I really want to be quiet or I don't actually like having lots of presents because I find it really overwhelming and weird okay fine sure we can work with that rather than oh come on but you know great grandma is here and everything and you must do this can you just pretend to be happy and all that kind of stuff it's like god beam me up So yeah, we've got to just respect where people are at. But the first thing is you divide out where you were at and try and tell people. It can be hard to change that with people with family gatherings and they've always done things in a certain way. And you're suddenly saying, actually, I find it really difficult. And so people will sometimes react to that and go, oh, you got to come and they do that corrective listening thing. But again, have, you know, speak to somebody in the family who's on your side and
00:32:15
Speaker
try and tell people this is okay i'll I'll do this bit of it and then don't be surprised when I say goodbye at nine o'clock or ten o'clock because I'm not drinking and you guys all are or whatever it is but I just want to get me quiet. To Christmas Eve I have I've got a couple of invites which is really kind but I absolutely love going to bed. On Christmas Eve I'm a little bit excited and then waking up on Christmas morning, actually slightly on my own and go just taking it at my pace. And then I'll go to where my my kid is and and what is docking and all that kind of stuff. But I just need that time. i So that's okay. Thank you, Tom. I think, yeah, hit them out. Just make sure you do what you want to do sometimes as well. poton It's It is for you because your version of community is going to be different to mine. It might be your church, might be your football team. It might be your yoga group. It might be your mosque. Right. It it doesn't matter.
00:33:08
Speaker
your version of community is yours, that choir or peloton or even online communities. I do a lot for people, particularly younger people at the minute. Yeah, I was going to say I appreciate ah younger generations may have more of an online community than what we've seen in the past. So yes, it's important to remind people that you can still build those connections online if you're not feeling comfortable being out and about at the moment.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah, and lots of people are out there were ready to listen. I'm part of a group called The Man Cave, for example, and I get a posting on there, people just like, can I just get this off my chest? Can I just tell you this is happening to me? It's really, really powerful for them. Thank you, Tom. I wanted to move on to managing grief and loss um during the holiday season, which I appreciate is quite a difficult subject for a
Grief and Mental Health During Holidays
00:33:55
Speaker
lot of people. Yeah. A survey has found that Shockingly, 64% of people with mental health conditions report worsening symptoms during during the holiday season. And it can be especially tough for those going through a grief or experiencing loss of a loved one. And Joe, I know you had a story that you wanted to tell to talk to us about. So would you mind sharing that story if that's OK with you and what helped you get through that difficult time? So coming out of the pandemic,
00:34:27
Speaker
i I picked up some shifts in a local pub run by a friend. ah He needed extra hands and and I needed extra income because I was learning to drive, which is very expensive. But in late 2022, and it was just a couple of weeks before Christmas, I bumped into the manager, Sean, and he told me that Liam, his supervisor, his body had been found that morning by his flatmates when they returned from their late shift. Liam had taken his own life and then a few weeks later,
00:34:57
Speaker
Tom, who was another bartender in our community, also died by suicide. Liam was in his 30s and he nearly left behind two young daughters, and Tom was only in his 20s. Both men had struggled with their mental health. They were good at masking it, sometimes through alcohol and drugs as well, so the signs were quite easy to miss. I think their funerals was the hardest time, and not just because of their loss, it was because the churches were overflowing with people who cared for them.
00:35:28
Speaker
who would have helped them if they'd only asked. But for reasons that we'll never understand, they didn't. Weeks that followed brought more loss. and My nan passed away and my partner lost a friend and after a long battle with cancer. So the start of 2023 was incredibly tough. I'd never experienced as much grief and I knew I wasn't myself. So I had to tell my manager because I wasn't the person that he was used to working with. And saying it out loud was hard.
00:35:57
Speaker
I felt really guilty asking for the time off to attend the funerals as well. But when I did speak with Ryan, he was supportive. He understood. He asked what he could do. He asked if I needed time, which he didn't. Working was the best thing for me as well. That gave me the courage to speak to others. And that's when I don't know if I was surprised, but I just realized how many people around me had been affected by suicide as well. I read that a single suicide impacts up to 135 people. And then just this past weekend, I received another devastating message that Jojo, who is a waitress I worked with in a previous job, and we worked together for three years. and She died by suicide as well. and I have some great memories of her. But as I was preparing for this podcast on Friday, I didn't think that I'd have to be thinking about anything else to be adding into the story.
00:36:56
Speaker
The stigma surrounding mental health and suicide stops many people for asking for help. But talking about it and asking somebody directly, are you thinking of taking your own life? Doesn't plant the idea in their head. Instead, this can give them the permission to open up and share their feelings. So we need to fight the stigma. As I've said, we need to remind people that it's okay to not be okay. And it's okay to ask for help and support. Thank you, Jo.
00:37:26
Speaker
So sorry. It's all their friends and family as well going into this time of year. I always think of Liam's daughters for Christmas and I hope they're able to change their memories around it as well as they grow up. You mentioned work kept you, I assume, kept you busy, kept your mind on something else. What other sort of things did you kind of lean on during that time?
00:37:51
Speaker
it's fortunate in that sense that there was a lot of us that were in the same situation, so we did have a lot of us around that could support and each other. It wasn't a surprise if you found one person who was struggling a little bit more and there was a lot of us to lean on.
00:38:08
Speaker
but I've always found work as a distraction when I've struggled, which I know ah can be quite an abnormal thing. Lots of people are completely the other way round and can't quite function. Whereas for me, I need distractions. It gives me that reason to to keep going and that reminder that there are great parts of life and we need to share that. For me, sitting at home alone doesn't do me any favors when I'm struggling, being out there in the world. And even if that does mean that I might be upset and I might be visibly crying in front of other people. I don't mind because we'll all have our moments. Everybody has highs, everybody has lows. For me, it's been massively talking and supporting each other. Tom, I imagine this is a subject deal with quite a lot. What advice, if any, or support would you recommend those on either side of that story, those who are going through suicidal thoughts and those who have kind of experienced ah
00:39:07
Speaker
been through that grieving and loss during this time. Our job as a manager or as a mate or as a colleague is to keep sending out those little lifeboats to say that, you know, I'm there. I feel this stuff too. And I'm here if you want to talk. When you enter into that conversation, somebody comes to you, it's not likely that they're going to say,
00:39:34
Speaker
Oh, by the way, I'm just going to let you know I'm about to hurt myself. I mean, they might do. But as Joe said, thick sometimes your guts are churning because the stuff they're saying is is not right. It's a bit weird. Somebody's really smashing it, burning a candle at both ends, but not there. Or they might use quite self-loathing or catastrophic language about themselves. There's some swear words coming your way in it. So I hate my fucking knife. Well, no one would give a shit if I was it wasn't here in the morning.
00:40:01
Speaker
particularly burdened to others, I'd better off if I wasn't here, that kind of stuff. And that's your moment to go. Joe says, are you thinking about hurting yourself? but In the workplace, we need to establish what kind of conversation we are having. Is somebody telling me they might be at risk of hurting themselves?
00:40:22
Speaker
Because once we identify that, then we know what to do. They might be a bit shocked. They might say things like, how do you know? okay Well, the things you were saying were worrying me, or your behavior, some of your behavior is worrying me. And addictions, we might talk about later on. It's it's a form of self-harm in some ways. So it's all right for us to notice it and to say it. And if they do say, well, I'm experiencing this or I'm thinking about that, that's our moment to get them to the right place for support, which will be professional services and not you. And you do need to tell the organisation that you've had this conversation, even if it breaks your short-term relationship with the individual on confidentiality. So i I mean, if you've been on mental health first aid training, you'd probably ask another question, which is about, have you have you actually got a plan to do this? Are you thinking of hurting yourself you know today? And you could identify where that is. But if you haven't done that kind of training,
00:41:16
Speaker
Identify if they have thought about it and then pass this on to the right people and then that right person You can't find anybody else 999, but you know if your your local HR the employee assistants Shout Samaritans that that these are good places for us to to have that call and stay with them while you make that call That's the other good question to ask somebody is who would you like me to telephone about this now?
00:41:39
Speaker
And then they can play a part in saying, actually, I've got a, my GP knows about this or my partner is about this, or I've got a crisis response team, WhatsApp group or something. So you can do that for people who are thinking about this. Now we're not here on this podcast to try and persuade them away from their feelings. Cause if you'd start thinking about this kind of thing, you probably thought about everything else. You probably thought about all the other ways you can help yourself. You are.
00:42:07
Speaker
in this place, not through fault of your own, but because life has sort of dealt it out. There's nothing wrong with you. You're not broken, but there's something wrong in your world or your world is broken. And it's showing up through you and through these moods and behaviours and thoughts. but Some people, they are just thoughts. For other people, there's ah there's a logic to how I want to remove myself from a situation. I think the world might be better off without me in it. And I just want to say that people have had all these thoughts when they're going through it.
00:42:37
Speaker
It's not that somebody suddenly so decided to have a sequence of thoughts, leave a situation. There's often a big pathway towards it. So it's complex. It's really complex. It's just perhaps the thought that I want to leave people with if you're thinking around this kind of subject is that when people do hurt themselves or take their own lives, it's not their tragedy to hold. The tragedy comes with what's left behind and the fact that people do love them and they do matter.
00:43:02
Speaker
And that's what I i would think of. and And I'm going to be honest with this group of people and say, I thought about this from time to time in my life. and I haven't planned it, but I've thought about it. And when I started looking around this subject, I came across a page that came up and it just said something like, you just searched around this subject. We are here to tell you there's no such thing as a painless. And it just made me think in a slightly different way. If it's not your pain, it'll be somebody else's.
00:43:32
Speaker
And that's a really powerful thing to hear. On that subject, I'm going to recommend a book, if I may, and that's by Caroline Roodhouse, who you ought to have on at some stage. She is the wife of somebody who took his own life without any warning or any explanation to young children. And her book, Daddy Blackbird, is about her journey from horror to hope on this. so We'll get you in all the fields and it goes into detail about what happened in the process of her coming through this in all stages. So it's a big one. On the other side of it, how we work with grieving. Well, there aren't five stages. There's no how to guide. There is just, you know, it's yours. Grief is in the body of the beholder, basically, as a talker. It's not the incident itself. It's how it affects me. There is and an amazing book called Resilient Grieving.
00:44:30
Speaker
by Dr Lucy Hone, who's a practicing academic. So she draws on research and draws on her own extremely moving story about this. And I think sometimes just turning into this subject can help us understand how we can help ourselves, how we can help other people. Thank you, Tom. Thank you both of you really for sharing those difficult times. and Thank you. Tom, you touched on addiction and how that can look especially in holiday ah seasons can be particularly challenging for anyone.
Managing Addiction in Festive Times
00:45:04
Speaker
ah addictction from You know, not just drugs and alcohol, it could be anything from shopping, gambling, gaming, based on your experience. What support can you give or would you recommend to those struggling? Because this time of the year is one where I can have my addiction very publicly. and So if I'm overspending,
00:45:29
Speaker
I could do that because it's the festive season. If I'm drinking too much, I can do that. If I'm taking the drugs, I can do multiple relationships. I can do this all in the spirit of festivity. What that means is I'm doing it in the public area and I'm then probably doing it at home, depending on the level of my addiction. But I think we need to recognize this. The addiction is not about the poison. It's not the thing I'm doing. It's not the gamble. It's not the chase of a relationship. It's not the drug I take. It's about the chase and that feeling I get, like a dopamine hit. It's the hit of getting it. And so we recognise it's not about the poison, it's about the pain and that hit helps us manage pain. We are coping with something and it's therefore part of a process about
00:46:23
Speaker
me trying to mask and hide stuff. The thing that's making me feel this way is probably intensified and my ability to do it is enabled by the season. So it's really hard. It's sometimes not the season to say to Drunk and Uncle Tom, can you not drink anymore this afternoon, please? Because you're a bit, you know, you're a bit wrecked already. yeah That's not the moment for it. But we can say to people, I'm worried about you. I care about you. Try and connect with them.
00:46:53
Speaker
rather than trying to correct them. And if it's you, this is really hard, but you know, I've been through recovery in different ways. And one of the things that helped me are things like just remembering that I got a choice. I don't have to smash it every single night. I can set my intentions. Right. I want some big nights. Good. I'll do it that night and I'll do it that week. It doesn't have to be a kind of full on kind of rocket fueled month. I can choose my moment and Again, as we mentioned this earlier on, you know, just remember that you're probably laying a trap for January and February, where I'm doing it more and more and more in December. And then I try to gi dry January and I last till the first weekend, or I'm in debt. And that intensifies my anxiety and my depression about life, so I then go and do it more. Well, my unit count is really much higher and I'm going to need more to get the same hit. But you can plan it. And there's some other little, do you want to add a couple of little smart tricks from recovery? Eat early, eat carby.
00:47:51
Speaker
and your body won't be wanting carbs and sugar and that kind of stuff when you go out. Keep a litre or two of water in the fridge and glug it hard before you go out. It will fill you up, it will shrink your tummy, you won't feel like having the volume. And the other thing I always say is that if you know this is a thing for you,
00:48:12
Speaker
then there are groups, there is therapy, there is advice waiting for you. Those other people will have been there. I want to give up in the build up to Christmas and stop and have Christmases without alcohol. And I haven't had anything for eight years now. I did accidentally have a sip of somebody's Prosecco, which I had to spit. And I'm still all right with a little bit of alcohol cooking. So I'm not i'm never going to say no to a tiramisu and I'm Bolognese without red wine is just like a summer without sunshine. So so um'm I'm all right with it now. And a brilliant book for your Christmas list is Gabo Marte in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. All the trigger warnings. And the other one is The Easy Way to Stop Drinking. So it's the Alan Carr book, not the comedian Alan Carr. He's written a series of books but called Easy Way. There's one about smoking, there's one about drinking, and I think there are others as well. And it in it completely explodes all the self-justifying reasons as to why we do this stuff.
00:49:12
Speaker
There's nothing like good therapy on this to try and find out why. Thank you, Tom. I think, yeah, addiction can affect not just the person who's going through that, but people around you as well. Yeah. It's all legit. It's all legit. And the effect of this, as you say, this is not just about you, but it's really hard. If you've got a pain and you're trying to cope, it's really hard to shove that. And addiction is less about what you are doing.
00:49:39
Speaker
or even the amount that you are doing it. I'm doing this when I don't want to be doing it. Addiction is I can't say no and I'd like to. Addiction is doing it in secret. Addiction is doing it in the knowledge that it causes harm. That is where that's the problem end of it. So if you look at alcohol concern and other organizations,
00:50:07
Speaker
The bit where you're doing something because you're having a big night out and it's planned and it's your one or two times a year, whatever, do the that's not it. It's the effect of it. And would I rather not be doing this? That's where I learned that the choice to drink had stopped being my decision on a day to day basis. I knew that it wasn't right. I didn't want to do it, but I was doing it anyway. And that's the moment where I thought, hang on a minute.
00:50:36
Speaker
ah doesn't add up who's in control here and even after that point I couldn't just kind of click my fingers and go I i did have a bit of a revelation I was going out for a run one morning with a hangover and I just thought to myself what is your point do you want to be well do you not want to be well do you want your kid to be able to hang out with you when she's in her 30s because right now you're not on that right pass and I had this this sudden sort of who moaubertwa My body just realised that i my life would be better without booze and I knew that I had to get rid of it.
00:51:11
Speaker
And when I got rid of that, I got rid of a load of other stuff as well, because alcohol gets in the way of your decision-making executive functioning hippocampus prefrontal cortex stuff. So that's why we make bad decisions on it. And that's why we do more. That's why we can't say no. That's why we try the extra stuff on it. That's why but poor relationship decisions. And if I was to give any tips at all, it's about checking in with where you're at with this. You can slow it all down. You can go one on, one off. You can say no. You can set your intentions.
00:51:42
Speaker
and you can tell other people, and this is my advice to the other people, it's like, don't be that person who says, oh, come on, just have a beer, or if somebody says, yeah, I'll have a drink, and I go, just get him a double, you know, it's like, don't do that kind of shit, because you can really upset somebody very, very quickly, and it's spiking, and you know, it's a form of spiking, I think, which is the most common form, alcohol is the most common form of spiking in this country.
00:52:03
Speaker
and it can be very difficult. But to know where you are in there and to listen to your body's signals, there will be aches, there will be pains, there will be bank balance signals as well. I don't gaffer tape over these flashing lights. I tune into them. They are trying to tell you something. And one of the worst things you can do is when your body needs to rest and proper nutrition is to go again. So that's what it'll do. That's what it'll ask you to do.
00:52:27
Speaker
Thank you, Tom. Well, we've touched on deep topics and I'm hoping the next sort of area will be a little bit more lighthearted.
Mindful Cooking
00:52:35
Speaker
And it's actually around cooking. Cooking is a major part of the festive time. It can play a really huge role in mental wellbeing and fostering mindfulness and creativity and community.
00:52:47
Speaker
So it can be really positive, but it can also have a negative if you don't have those community, if you're potentially living alone and you might have that burden of, oh, I've got to cook for one. And that just probably doesn't feel particularly fun sometimes. So I suppose what would you say about the power of cooking and the importance of cooking in both situations? If you are potentially cooking for one, how can you make that feel a little bit more fun around the festive season?
00:53:15
Speaker
And if you are cooking for a big family and you're potentially worrying about financial struggles, what else can you do then um to make that easier for yourself? when it comes to cooking at this time of year i would refer back to memories um a mu used to cook on my grandparents she's to cook you know and how they used to put fun into it so they'd always have the radio one or but be singing but and it was terrible but ah they'd be singing and you know to be it be a whole occasion and matter what it it it's for christmas lunch sunday lunch wherever it might be so my advice is always to plan ahead, you know, make sure you plan ahead. If you're on your own or you've got a big family coming over, plan ahead, set yourself up for success. You know, make sure that you've got total control so that you can enjoy yourself as well, even if you're on your own. So make it an occasion and try cooking something different, maybe something you haven't done before. It's a time to really, like I'm going to go back to if you're on your own at the moment, maybe you've got a work colleague that's in a similar position to you and maybe just make a pack, you know, cook together.
00:54:11
Speaker
check in on a neighbour, you know, cook for them. That's a wonderful thing to do as well. Just knock on a door to see if somebody needs something or you can offer them something. Go to a local church, volunteer. Sometimes you don't always have to be at home, but you go go out and volunteer and have lunch somewhere else. There are places out there that that that kind of do this, soup kitchens, stuff like that. But again, I'll go back to the beginning. When you are cooking at home for yourself, do try and make an occasion. It might not seem glamorous, it might seem a bit lonely, but if you are on your own, really take yourself out of your comfort zone. Maybe make some bread. Maybe make a loaf of bread. Treat yourself. Be kind to yourself. Have a little treat. I know we're speaking here about addictions and stuff like that, but it's okay to have yourself a little treat on this this occasion, but set yourself up for success. Make sure you've got some stuff ready to go and and enjoy the process. Don't make it something you have to do because you have to eat. Really indulge in in terms of your preparation and play music, like I said. Thank you, Andy.
00:55:05
Speaker
I think that I spend a fair amount of time on my own, actually. I'm self-employed, I live at home, and I've got 50-50 childcare with my kid. So I like cooking for myself, and I actually run a ah supper club for strangers. So I have 12 people to dinner who don't know each other every other month, and I'm doing three courses, and they put a little donation in a pot. And but then other times, sometimes I set myself the challenge of going, how can I get the most nutrients in me for the lowest cost?
00:55:34
Speaker
and really kind of go out and shop. like Walk to the shop, buy your ingredients, prepare them properly, sort of put a bit of self care into the food that you eat. I think that's a really lovely thing. Sometimes I'll candle, sometimes I'll put music on, so you know. Maybe you want to take yourself out for dinner. How you treat yourself is really important in this. It's not like a toxic self care. It's how you think about yourself and how you respect yourself and the stuff that goes in your body.
00:56:01
Speaker
ah Alongside all the treats and the ultra process stuff, it's going to come your way to balance it out with some good, wholesome seasonal stuff. I think that's probably my best tip around it. Please don't put pressure on yourself. Nobody says you need a roast turkey with every single trimming for Christmas day. Personally, I think by the time we get to Christmas day, I'm sick of turkey.
00:56:24
Speaker
However, I'll always have space for pigs and blankets. But one of my favorite traditions that we have is we do Friends Christmas. ah So that's next weekend. And that has grown massively because there's now partners and children involved. But we all choose a dish we buy and bring along and then you're in charge of making it. So it is chaos because you've got 10 different groups around the kitchen. Everybody's making something else. But there's such a sense of fun and warmth there with Christmas songs. And then we'll sit down and present our offering on the table to each other. There's just that warmth of bringing everybody together and sharing a meal. There's so much power in it. And I get so much joy personally from food anyway. Tom, last one for
Wellbeing Tips for Winter
00:57:07
Speaker
you. If you could summarize kind of everything we've touched on into three really powerful wellbeing tips that you would like to share for our listeners to take away, what would they be? Oh,
00:57:20
Speaker
There's just three. If we look at the bringers of doom around this period, which is drink of drugs, debt, and darkness, I think that that that's a guide of what we should do. So set your intentions on the drink and the other stuff and check in with yourself and just recognize that you might be laying a trap for February. So just what, you know, the booze and the big nights have them, don't have them all day, every day. You know, don't wreck your relationships to say, give a couple of extra nights out.
00:57:50
Speaker
On the debt front, again, you can manage this. You definitely have choices. And it can be quite revealing about how how we work with money around this time. Again, there's advice, there's support out there. Light is very good for us. It really helps our sleep rhythms, our circadian rhythms. So to get outside in nature, you're you're likely to be moving. You're likely to be with other people. You're likely to be seeing kind of green and those are really good for us. So that's it's a very powerful antidote antioxidant to the kind of pressures and the intensity and the toxicities that we get around festive indulgence. So getting outside is really good, not at least because you're doing something positive, but because you're probably not doing the things that are causing you harm in the same way. The difference between you scrolling on your phone and finishing off the Baileys, you know, after you should be in bed, ah little things that you can do can make a big difference.
00:58:51
Speaker
make sure everyone takes their lunch breaks and go outside. Yeah, any time. Even on a gloomy day, the amount of light in the air is is enough to kind of wake you up properly. So particularly after you get up in the morning, try and get up at the same time, even if you're tired, have a tired day and then go to bed at the right time so you don't get out of rhythm. If you're not sleeping, don't do the not sleeping, scrolling, dealing and worrying in your bed. Go to a different room, do it when you feel tired, go back to your bed. Because bed should be a sleep cue for us.
00:59:20
Speaker
In fact, the only thing you should be doing in bed is sleeping, but to the wakeful stuff, isn't there? I'm still guilty of it. I need to be more disciplined. Yeah, best thing for your Christmas list is get an alarm clock so you don't sleep next to your phone. I always say this, but i'm going steady is remembering that winter is a good three months. So we think about our being well, is that I play the long game on this. I've chosen to eliminate and booze and the other stuff. That's not everybody's story. You are where you are for good reason. So don't beat yourself up about that. and then But if you need support, you want resources, you want information, there's lots of good places out there. There's people waiting for you right now.
01:00:05
Speaker
And we'll be sharing in our bio all the links to the books and the resources that you've shared with us. Thank you all so much for being with us and joining this really important conversation around mental wellbeing. A massive thank you to our special guest, Tom, Joe, and for sharing your own personal stories as well.