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S2:EP3 Women in the helm of Hospitality with Natalie Mainwaring, Louise Denton and Nicola Pearce
106 Plays1 year ago
Join FYI for our first ever LIVE episode in celebration of International Women's Day; Women at the Helm of Hospitality. In this episode host Sam Wakeham is joined by three out of the four female executive leaders at BaxterStorey: Natalie Mainwaring, Brand Experience Director; Louise Denton, Regional Managing Director for the Southwest; and Nicola Pearce, Head of Food, Health & Safety.
Together the group delve into their unique journeys within the hospitality and tackle pressing issues such as misconceptions, biases, imposter syndrome, and the importance of defining non-negotiables in achieving a healthy work-life balance.
Get ready for an enlightening and empowering discussion!
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Transcript
Introduction to FYI The Bats of Story
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to our first live FYI The Bats of Story podcast. The International Women's Day, Happy International Women's Day everyone. Thank you for everyone who is tuning in from around the business. Those who are listening back on Spotify and of course all of you here with
Meet the Female Leaders
00:00:17
Speaker
us today. I'm Sam Weickham, I will be your host for this episode, Women at the Helmet Hospitality. And I have the absolute pleasure of being joined by three of our four female executive leaders.
Paths of Female Leaders in Hospitality
00:00:28
Speaker
To be wearing our brand experience director Louise Denton regional manager director for the Southwest and Nicola Pierce head of food health and safety.
00:00:38
Speaker
Over the next 30 minutes we will be putting the spotlight on these women and delving to their unique paths through hospitality to the top. We'll be challenging and exploring the misconceptions, biases and the may face in hospitality and we will also be tackling other workplace issues such as managing imposter syndrome and the importance of defining non-negotiables in the workplace. I stop thank you ladies it's really great to have you all with us.
Louise Denton's Career Journey
00:01:04
Speaker
I want to start the beginning of your career and I think a question we're all witching to really know about is how did you get to where you are now and is there a secret recipe to success in hospitality?
00:01:17
Speaker
So Lou, your journey through hospitality is really intriguing and it began at the age of 50. You fell in love with hospitality and you went to university to study hospitality. Yeah, I did. That's right. Yeah. And then you worked up to your career ladder and joined Access Story 12 years ago. So can you share more information about your career journey and what you believe?
00:01:38
Speaker
contributed to your success in the hospitality industry? I'm trying to do this justice. Yeah, I mean, at 15, I think like a lot of people, I started waitressing actually in a local hotel. My dad worked there saying, I think he saw it as a means that I could earn my own cash and start to pay my rent.
00:01:54
Speaker
But I really loved it. I loved the kind of buzz of it, and particularly to events and that kind of stuff, which is where it sort of led me in time. So I've told this story, a few people have heard this story already, but I decided that I was able to go to university. I got the grade to go to uni, which was great. First person in my family to do that. So, you know, I was very excited.
Roles and Success in Hospitality
00:02:13
Speaker
And then I told my parents that I wanted to go and study hospitality and they were mortified because they just thought it was an industry that, you know, you do part time, which sadly is still the misconception, I think.
00:02:22
Speaker
But yeah, I said, well, I'll do hospitality with business and maybe that's a good compromise. So when, yes, spent four years at uni and sort of did that, and it was useful. It was a whole different experience, but left and still wanted to work in hotels and events. And that's what I did. And I did wedding planning for a long time, actually.
00:02:38
Speaker
which I think has been by default a quite predominantly female led part of the industry. But that does afford you an opportunity actually to get on quite quickly and probably get into a management role more quickly than you might otherwise find. So I think quite grateful of that. And I had a good boss at the time that sort of helped me step that way. And yeah, worked in hotels for a long time. I went and worked in theatre for a while as well.
00:03:01
Speaker
So I worked with Andrew Lloyd Webber for a few years, which is really interesting. Yeah, really fascinating world theatre, again, sort of in hospitality and events. So yeah, I guess a bit of a theme for me. And I always thought that's where I would stay. I worked at Twickenham Stadium for a little while as well. And then came back to theatre at the Coliseum on St. Martin's Lane, which at the time, well, it still is part of the WSH family as a venue. I'd never heard of this contract world. So I was delighted that I could still do what I loved, but nine to five.
00:03:30
Speaker
You know, as you said, that was 12 years ago. And I think, you know, that was the journey for me. And I'm quite mindful.
Female Support in Careers
00:03:38
Speaker
I think I've been quite fortunate in my career, actually, that I've had the support of a lot of good sort of leaders and bosses on that way. But you do question sometimes, actually, would I be further on perhaps if, you know, I perhaps haven't seen some of those barriers or sort of perceptions of me?
00:03:56
Speaker
And being in this role now, you feel a real responsibility of sort of making sure those doors are open for everybody else. So yeah, it's been a good journey for me, I think. Can I, as I say, perhaps have some blind spots to where some of those barriers were that you only see now sort of looking back on it, really?
00:04:13
Speaker
So you credit being around strong female leaders, but you're saying that they're potentially what that was causing a barrier for you in a way?
Nat and Nicola on Career Growth
00:04:20
Speaker
No, so I think actually what I was surrounded by when I was younger was a lot of female managers sort of similar level to me, who actually are people that are very close friends to me now, who are also very senior. I've got three very close friends that I worked with when I was 23, 24. We all started off at a hotel, not really knowing much of what we were doing.
00:04:38
Speaker
and are all in sort of similar senior roles. So I think we all grew up together in the way that I see that happening in Back to the Story actually. But to say it, I've worked for male bosses probably my entire career, and I would say not deliberately holding me back, but that may have been some of the sort of blocker. But where I've worked alongside women,
00:04:59
Speaker
Again, I've been really fortunate that generally we've sort of grown together and promoted one another along, sort of pushed one another and stretched. So that has been a real positive, but yeah, it was part of that journey, I guess. But, you know, I'd say I haven't worked for a lot of female leadership and that's probably a disappointment, I would say, to this point.
00:05:19
Speaker
Well, you're paving the way. Change that. Yeah, exactly. A change in that. Nat and Nicola, you both started your careers on the floor, but they took completely different pathways. Nat yours into sales and in conference marketing and Nicola yours health and safety, food health and safety. Did you always have this level of ambition or did you imagine or envision yourself being where you are now or did your careers just kind of grow organically along the way?
00:05:46
Speaker
So I've worked in the food industry since I was a teenager and then I went to university to do environmental health. I think the great thing about the hospitality industry is that you can progress your career in other areas, so it's not just locations or operations, there's also support services such as food health and safety. So it's great that I could use my degree and my experience in environmental health in backstory and in the hospitality industry.
00:06:12
Speaker
When I look at my team, we've got an absolutely brilliant team, but they all come from different backgrounds. So some of them have been chefs, some of them have been in operations, some of them have done degrees, graduates, master's degrees. But having that range of knowledge is really important because it makes a strong team. It means that we can share experiences. So I've always wanted to succeed, but it's great that there's opportunities to succeed in different ways.
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think if you are a 16 year old now, would she be on an executive team of a half a billion pound hospitality company? She probably really would have laughed at you because I definitely didn't think that this was going to be my journey. My dad had actually said that I needed to find myself a rich husband because I like the nice things in life. Success probably wasn't a setup for me doing it myself as I was growing up.
00:07:00
Speaker
But I definitely have always had a really good work ethic. And I think that sport was really important to me growing up, you know, from gymnastics to netball. And I got a flavour of what it was like to succeed and to win. So I always knew that I would have a career, I would have a career and I would take steps forward. Probably did I think I'd land where I am now? Probably not. But I think it's really incredible that we can do this. And actually I sat listening to something on Wednesday at the caterer.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so many people think the hospitality is an industry that you fall into. And the young lady Holly, who's running her own business, like unbelievable powerhouse said, actually, we need to change that narrative. And we need to consider the hospitality is actually really as a vocation and that we should actually be proud that we've landed in here. And I definitely am because I don't know how many businesses you can have whereby
00:07:49
Speaker
you know, half our board do not have degrees, you know, they haven't studied that level. Ronan went back to school last week, you know, for example, to kind of do some study. Hospitality really gives you an opportunity to have an absolutely thriving career. And I think we've just got to remember that sometimes. Now you hit the nail on the head there, really, didn't you?
00:08:07
Speaker
The next topic I wanted to talk about was biases in the workplace. You're probably aware, but only 30% of leaders in hospitality are women. And naturally, with a lack of female management comes challenges for progression and support for future females. So, Natalie, I suppose this is a question for you. You've been on the exec team for a year now, but before that, you were a leader in several roles throughout sales.
00:08:31
Speaker
and operations. Are there any challenges you faced as a leader due to your gender or maybe even your age? And if so, how did you overcome or approach those moments? I'm still experiencing some very young sounds, so as you
00:08:44
Speaker
That's what I mean. Have I experienced typical biases? Absolutely. You know, I've sat in a room. I've been asked to take notes. I've sat in a room and being used as a role model for being the secretary continuously. I've sat in a room with some senior male leaders. They didn't like the answer I gave them. So they turned around and said, now, now, come on, little girl, let's do get this right. So I've definitely experienced that. But actually, probably one of the most interesting experiences of bias that I've experienced was from a female leader.
00:09:13
Speaker
So I believe that the small things matter and I had a team member who loved stationery and she'd worked really hard for me so I thought the nice thing to do would be to buy her a really cute pencil case to put all the stationery in, really ridiculous I'd know. But at the time I had a really senior female manager who told me that actually being kind wasn't going to get me anywhere.
00:09:35
Speaker
which really I really struggle with because my mum 100% drummed kindness into me and it's my number one value and she absolutely believed that you need to have hyper masculine traits in order to be a senior leader and that really struggled. I really really struggle with that because I just don't believe it and my leadership is changing and everybody knows I love a pod so also appearing on one now even if I might be a bit shaky.
00:09:59
Speaker
But there's a really good podcast where Mo Gout, who was number two at Google, so drove Google X and is just a phenomenal, phenomenal human, really big thinker. And at the end of Stephen Bartner's podcast, they always say, you know, leave a question. So the person that was on the pod before asked questions to the next person. And the question for him was, what's your biggest failure that you cherish?
00:10:24
Speaker
And this guy who was an absolute genius said, I wish I'd empowered my feminine side more because he truly believed that feminine traits and feminine leadership skills are where the ward is going. So masculine behavior is all about doing, and I'm reciting him now, but feminine is about being. And actually, if we're all a bit more being, we will be a far stronger group of people as well. So I think that's something that kind of sat with me was that actually she was actually wrong.
00:10:52
Speaker
And I think that the way in which we all lead now moving forward, I think empathy, you know, and standing in care is really important. That's a really good point. Nicola and Louise, I suppose, put that to you. How do you feel about what Natalie said about having the ability to become a feminine leader? Do you have the confidence that you can do that in your spaces?
00:11:13
Speaker
I mean, yeah, definitely. I've been lucky to send female colleagues throughout my career, which has really helped me, although I do agree with Natalie. I think the times where it's been the hardest to take is when a female leader does make a comment. So it's really important to make sure that you do champion other females in the workplace.
00:11:34
Speaker
being a female or anyone, that everybody has different life challenges and it might be having a baby, raising a family, it might be looking after like parents, it might be health issues or the menopause. And what I think we need to be able to do is make sure that if people do want to progress their careers during those life circumstances, we give them the opportunity to do so. So I think that's really important. Yeah, thank you.
00:11:57
Speaker
I'd like to do a touch on imposter syndrome now and apparently 70% of people experience imposter syndrome at one point in their life and when you break that down in the workplace according to a recent study by KPMG they found that 57% of female participants experienced
00:12:15
Speaker
imposter syndrome in the workplace compared to 48. And while both stats I think are very high, you can see why women in leadership positions may suffer from imposter syndrome more and due to like potentially pressures to kind of fit into a male domain workspace. Naturally, what are your thoughts on imposter syndrome in the workplace, particularly for women and have you ever experienced self terrible imposter syndrome yourself?
00:12:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a really big conversation. I've been really fortunate the last year I've been involved in Whittle, which is women in tourism and leadership group. And I started a global women's program. And actually what I couldn't believe was every time we got into a breakout group, and I'm talking about talking to the CMO, you know, chief marketing officer of McDonald's in Madrid, you know, global officers of customer care, etc. The conversation always got back to imposter syndrome, which was actually quite frightening. Have I experienced it? Absolutely.
00:13:08
Speaker
And I think that it'd be really wrong for me to say that I hadn't, because I think we've got to all be really open and honest about that. And Sam, I definitely know having vulnerable conversations with you to say, geez, I've stepped into a role. And sometimes I do not know what I'm doing and do I deserve to be there. So I've definitely experienced it. I think for me, the interesting part that the bit that I'm
00:13:29
Speaker
frustrated about myself and the imposter syndrome that I probably experienced was, I questioned whether I should be the leader that I just spoke about. So for me, kindness and care is really, really important. And actually, if I was going to step onto this board of directors, did that mean I needed to change? Actually, you know, should I start to kind of be more hypermasculine, you know, be more direct, you know, lose that empathy that I think is really important?
00:13:53
Speaker
and after a lot of learning and unlearning, Lindsay, I've taken your statement there as well. I learnt there was actually really important, I kind of remain true to myself because I think that's what our business needs a little bit of as well. And a question for all of you, when you feel you're suffering from impostor syndrome or you've got any self-doubt,
00:14:13
Speaker
What do you do to try and overcome that, if you can? How do you detect it before it creeps off on you and you're like, I don't know what it should be. Maybe I'll just finish off now. I had to do a lot of unlearning, so I learned myself out of some of it. There's a really good book, and gosh, you can tell I read, called The Chimp Paradox. And actually as a human, we're three things. We're a computer, we're a human, and we're also a chimp.
00:14:37
Speaker
And actually what I realized in all those situations is your chimp is your emotional being. And actually I was being hyper emotional and I wasn't allowing my human, which is the rational in me to kind of catch up and provide some logic. And so I had to, I read a really good book. I learned that it was really important. I fed my chimp a banana. And actually that banana was a deep breath to allow myself to kind of catch up as a real rational person to say, stop being silly. You know, come on, catch yourself now.
00:15:07
Speaker
That's not a true feeling, that's just an emotional moment and reaction and that you then be able to kind of move forward. So you're all obviously very influential leaders in your respective roles and you have the power to promote more gender diverse workplaces as well as educating others on the importance of gender diversity. This is an open question to any of you. How do you permanently mentor your female, your future female leaders and your teens in the wider business about the importance of gender diversity?
00:15:35
Speaker
That's really, yeah, that's a good question. I think a lot of it is around making sure everybody's got the accessibility to be in their role. I think Nicola touched on it. I think, you know, to live their life around their work as well. I think we need to remind ourselves sometimes of that, that, you know, work is just work at the end of the day.
00:15:54
Speaker
You know, I mean, I think in my most recent experience, actually, it's interesting talking about imposter syndrome. I think I've had that probably my entire life till about five years ago. And I suddenly realised I was in quite a senior important role and had a lot of female leadership coming up to the team. And I think recognising that you are that figurehead actually, and you're setting the example, that's a huge responsibility. But I think equally, I'd always been
00:16:17
Speaker
a bit robotic and a bit cold and I think back to your point Natalie, as kind of you know I am a leader so therefore I must not show any emotion and actually what I learnt very quickly was by sharing that emotion and how I feel about things and actually that I don't have all the answers. It empowered everybody else to kind of be able to say that, to ask questions and I think for me that's about setting an example, whatever the gender or diversity sort of characteristic is.
00:16:40
Speaker
that it's just allowing people to feel comfortable and to know that they can ask questions and that it is a journey, you know, as you go on that leadership journey and sort of along that road, really, for me. Nicola, any questions you want to add to that? I think I mentioned it before. Everybody has different life challenges or circumstances. There's not a blanket approach that you can take as what I've learnt. You have to assess it individually and some person wants a sport isn't necessarily what somebody else wants, so it's important to
00:17:09
Speaker
take that into consideration and promote an open environment so people feel like they can talk to you about their life circumstances and you can move, you can support them in the right way. Nat, you spoke a lot about lots of resources that you look into. Is there anything else for our audience and everyone listening that you'd like to recommend to find some more information? Do you know what? I think the podcast is brilliant because there's a real opportunity to listen from different experiences and I think that I definitely, knowing that I wasn't alone, was a really powerful thing
00:17:38
Speaker
Lou sent me a podcast snippet the other day actually of this young lady speaking and she said that she'd met so many brilliant people throughout her life, brilliant men in really senior positions. Every time she met someone she thought, I could do your job and actually my girls could run rings around you. And actually I think sometimes hearing people that have achieved stuff is really important. So I definitely would say, look at some really good podcasts and try and find ones that might be relevant to you as well.
00:18:05
Speaker
Louise, you've mentioned being around lots of female teams and seeing them come up. What do you think you should be doing as leaders to help more women come up the ladder? And what can we all be doing here to try and progress as well in hospitality?
00:18:20
Speaker
Well, I think what our business has done recently, actually in the last year, I mean, you know, the team talked about it to open today. And I think the benefits and the right benefits and accessibility are the key thing to, you know, in back to Nicola's point, you know, it allows everybody the same opportunity then, you know, and I think sadly, I mean, we're market leading, which is brilliant, but sadly, there's very little of that still. There's not parity of that to allow everybody access. So for me, that's probably the first thing to level the playing field.
00:18:48
Speaker
I think for me, Lou, you talk about the benefits, I think you're really busy. We've got to tell more people about that, but it's something that's hard to also over the last kind of three, four months. And I asked the question all the time, who shared what we've done as a business with their teams. And I was really disappointed with the number of people put their hands up.
00:19:05
Speaker
And actually, it's the people that you should be sharing and have no conversation with that will make the biggest of impacts. I just think, you know, for a barista who might want to go on maternity leave, who's thinking, you know, probably lives a little bit more hand to mouth than some people, 24 weeks of mat pay is just incredible. That's life changing. And so I think from our perspective, I think there's a responsibility to make sure that we share some of that story.
00:19:30
Speaker
throughout because actually I think that will encourage people to have those life moments but also encourage them to come back to their business and have a career afterwards as well. It's interesting you speak about Maglie because that sort of leads nicely into my next question for you Nicola. You became a first-time mum in 2021 and then you joined Back to the Story in 2022 balancing the responsibilities of being a new parent and leading a new department. That's a lot of responsibility to take on in one year
00:19:57
Speaker
And in a society where there's pressure for women to have it all, can you share with us how you know all of these life changes and were there any sacrifices you heard of me? So this is a tough question. I think firstly because having it all means different things to different people.
00:20:14
Speaker
So I think the answer personally, my personal opinion is having it all is really old fashioned. I was speaking to someone yesterday and they said it puts pressure on you to want everything and once you realise you can't have everything that is a gift and I was like that's exactly like the
00:20:29
Speaker
the way to go, isn't it? But everybody's different. I think for me, I did. So this job did come up just after I came back off maternity leave. And at first I thought, ah, it's such big life changes. I don't think I'll go for it. But actually after a lot of encouragement, I did go for it. And it was the best decision because I did really nicely with the rebrand, with the setting up of the ERGs, including Rise. But that said, I didn't want to make it sound easy.
00:20:56
Speaker
any working parent will know it is tough and it can be incredibly tough at times and I think when I first started I was like right I really separate my home life and my work life and I'll just be at work and I don't want anyone to know that anything else is going on but actually you need to acknowledge that you do have a life outside of work, you do have responsibilities and once you get to that point and you start talking to people it's so comforting because you realise the more you talk to them
00:21:21
Speaker
They look like they're smashing it. And you're like, wow, look at these people. And then you talk to them and they're having the same challenges as you are. They might have a messy house or a messy car or, but it's just so reassuring. So I think one of the things that I'd really like to see is that would help me now and would have helped me previously is potentially a.
00:21:40
Speaker
ERG for working parents. With the ERGs we need to know there's enough demand for it and it is actually going to support people in the business. So we've got the brilliant diving group which is run by Charlotte and Alice. So I think it's really important to share experience with other parents, we can share tips and just knowing somebody's going through the same thing as you is really reassuring and comforting. So if anybody who's listening to this podcast does think that will help them or has any ideas about how to
00:22:07
Speaker
We could set it up and how it would support. Please do email Charlotte and Anna, Charlotte, Ralston, Alice and Gulp as part of Digen. They're here as well, so if you want to get them down in person. Did you have to set yourself any non-negotiables?
00:22:23
Speaker
Yeah, the non-negotiable things are really hard because things change all the time. So there's not really a hard, fast, non-negotiable. But I did get to a point where I realised people tend to ring me at like five, six o'clock when they finished, due to the nature of the role, when they finished a location visit. And I realised that was when I'm spending time with my family and when I'm doing the nighttime routine.
00:22:44
Speaker
so we just had a really good chat as a team and just spoke about boundaries and what we what would benefit us and I said to the team if it's not urgent it's just to catch up could we do it earlier in the day or do it the next morning and everybody was absolutely fine with that so I think it's important to share those boundaries with people and the other thing I find that really helps is
00:23:03
Speaker
how vocal my colleagues and counterparts are about their parental responsibilities, not just females, but also males, because that takes the pressure off and it normalises it and that people, children are going to get sick, they do need to be looked after, they do need to be picked up. So that's really helpful. Did you have any pushback from anyone when you were trying to set those boundaries? No, not at all. It was really good. But actually, we all spoke about different types of boundaries because they're different for everybody. So it was just good to be open about it and see how we can help each other. Thank you.
00:23:33
Speaker
Nat and Louise, you're giving your experience as leaders for a very long time. Are there any other tips or advice you'd like to give to our audience on achieving a healthy or balanced life balance? I don't know. I think it comes down to you, essentially. So we can create the environment, but it's got to be you that makes the decision that you want to kind of prioritise that as well.
00:23:56
Speaker
So I think that's really important. I'm probably not the best example of a work-life balance and that I've got a responsibility to make sure for my team that I do create one as well. And that's from learnings from my perspective, but you have to make that happen. Nobody else is going to make it happen for you. So if you need to go for a walk, go take that walk, you know. I think that's really important is that you work out what works for you, that you feel empowered.
00:24:24
Speaker
You know, if any of my teams, say actually I need half an hour because I've just, I've just not been creative. Creative is a really hard job, you know, the expectation you sit down for nine to five and in those nine to five hours, I look at Sophie and Emily, I'm going to write really brilliantly. You know, sometimes you don't have those juices, you know, Eddie, I've got to write some marketing captions. It can be quite hard and actually sometimes just feeling empowered to say, I'm going to get off my seat. I'm going to go and get some fresh air. I'm going to go and kind of reset myself. I think it's important from a wellbeing perspective.
00:24:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'd agree. I think it is down to you ultimately. I think what I found quite interesting, moving into leadership roles, is that I don't have any children and I have a lot of female team around me that do and have families and have responsibility.
00:25:11
Speaker
I think it's quite easy when you don't have those commitments to kind of go, well, I know the team need that time. So actually I'll do it. I'll do that because I've got more capacity and so it becomes a different dynamic in you that you, you sort of own all that responsibility as you say now, as you then don't balance yourself and you come to a point and realize actually, I may not have those things, but I have other things in my life that I need to balance in order to be creative and
00:25:35
Speaker
stimulated and, you know, be able to lead. And it is a real responsibility that you're setting that right example as well. And I think that's, you do have to remind yourself every so often about that, you know, it's not just you and you've got that responsibility.
00:25:48
Speaker
That's really interesting because as a working parent, it puts pressure when people do have, if you're seeing somebody, put that extra in and you can't. So to step back is quite a strong message to send out, I think. Do you know what somebody said to me recently that somebody in the business is a new father?
00:26:05
Speaker
and there was some stuff going on at home, baby was on well and a couple of comments where I don't know why the mum's not doing something, why the mum's not picking up the baby and actually it blew my mind that whilst we think we're all progressive as well actually we didn't consider actually that there's an equal playing field here right now and like hell yeah to dad who was picking up the pace and you know kind of picking up slack and doing stuff as well
00:26:28
Speaker
So I think it's also, whilst we sit in a room full of females and women, you know, in all of our empowerment, we've got to also consider that equity that kind of happens and actually it's not equal for everybody. So that work-life balance can come in different spaces for different people. So we've touched on a lot and we've talked about the challenge and the stigma of women in the workplace, but how else do you imagine the future of gender diversity in the workplace?
00:26:54
Speaker
Hey, we're going to move into the topic. Do you know what I was saying earlier? I read a really interesting thing about how the business review did some research, et cetera. And one of the things that they found was that a woman in the workspace who had a really good network, a close group of people that hyped them up and moved them forward, had more chance of developing and would definitely go further, get paid more money, et cetera. And the same research said that that wasn't the case for males actually, which is really, really, really interesting.
00:27:24
Speaker
And I think things like this are only going to drive more women on boards in leadership positions, et cetera, as well. So I only see those numbers growing and I look forward to the WSH targets moving from 40 to 50, you know, to kind of to really being at that kind of equal stage.
00:27:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I had one of my team actually, when this opportunity came along for me to move into this role and sort of at Christmas time last year. And one of my team, we sort of went out for a few drinks and she said to me, you know, I've realized, I said, I just had never thought that maybe I could keep going, which it kind of saddens me a little bit. There's some, you know, wherever you want to go, you know, the opportunity should be there. She said, but I realized actually when you're doing this, actually like you can just keep going. Can't you can go anywhere, you know? And for me, that's as much as you need as feedback. If somebody can see that now, then
00:28:13
Speaker
We're doing the right thing, right? Yeah, we can see you can be it. Yeah. I mean, I'm quite fortunate and that's my boss. And just seeing how far she's come, he's been really inspiring. So I totally agree with that statement. So this has been a really great conversation and we've actually done it all within half an hour, like we had hoped. So yeah, this has been really great. Are there any final thoughts that you want to just have before we pass it over to the audience?
00:28:41
Speaker
Anything you'd like to add? God, I'm a good one. Stick on. I suppose for me is that women alone can have power, but together you can have impact. And actually I think that's really important that what we've got to remember is it's great we get to sit here today and it's lovely and it's great to celebrate our journeys, but every single person in this room is asked to somebody else. And so how we behave and how we leave this room will really leave that ladder and legacy for us to kind of move on.
00:29:09
Speaker
And a second thing for me, if you're ever struggling with imposter syndrome, find yourself a theme tune. I don't know who remembers Ally McBeal. Amazing. So an amazing lawyer, kick-ass lawyer who has some struggles and she had theme tunes that kind of always caught herself out of it. And I genuinely, I've got a song country music. I'm going to concerts this afternoon, but there's a country music artist called Jade Helliwell. And she's got a song called Woman I Am. And I 100% recommend going to do it. So when I was going through my moment of being like,
00:29:39
Speaker
I've said I wouldn't swear. Oh God. I have this song that every time I'd go for a walk for 10, 15 minutes and I knew the spot of my road that I had to put this song on. And honestly, I would walk in that room and it was my height shoe that I knew I would turn up to work that morning ready to go. So I would 100% reckon I'm getting that piece of shoe. So I need a theme tune, okay. Theme tune is a really good way of sometimes kind of just giving you that energy and that little reminder.
00:30:08
Speaker
I think I'd just endorse what Nat said really about that sort of leaving the latter and the legacy. I think that's so, so important that we change that direction, that narrative and hopefully, yeah, opportunities like this just go to serve that really, but yeah, fully agree with that statement. I think for me it's about having that open environment and if people do want to progress supporting them with it because there's so many different ways that we can with qualifications or
00:30:32
Speaker
or I don't know, not everybody needs flexible working, but we can look at all of that. So don't be afraid, don't feel there's barriers up, please have those conversations, it's really important. And do you feel that open enough to have those conversations at your board level as well? Yeah, I think I just recently on a Monday I got a phone call that something was happening in my family.
00:30:52
Speaker
and I walked into a room with Rowan and I'm sad to meet him within a couple of hours time and I said I'm really sorry I need to get on a plane to Amsterdam and explained and his response was what are you doing talking to me just go and let me know what you need and I genuinely have never felt more supported by my team that are in the room now but also by the board in terms of you know that leave her alone kind of moment so
00:31:15
Speaker
I think we've come a really long way as a business. I think we should be really, really proud of that. But I definitely feel that I do. And now for me, having more women to kind of share, it's just a really happy experience, I think. Thank you. Well, I hope you've all enjoyed this conversation or actually passing the mic over to the audience. So are there any questions?
00:31:37
Speaker
Thank you for that. I thought it was really brilliant. And we've obviously got some allies sitting in the room today and I was wondering what would it be that you would ask from them in terms of supporting you? Especially if you're a parent. I'd be open minded. Yeah.
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah. Can you go? Yeah. Well, I think it's, I think it's conversation as well. It's just talking about stuff and getting it out. And, you know, I mean, Lindsay regularly uses the phrase of messy conversations. And I think within that ally community is just talking about the things that affect you. And actually sometimes we're all prone to assumption, actually, you know, whatever that may be about. And I think it's easy to do that in those communities. So I think don't presume and assume and be talking about people.
00:32:20
Speaker
Turn up and support. I absolutely credit, you know, representation in the room because we can all moan and say we want change, but actually change happens when we do stuff together. So turn up. Lindsay stole my question, but I also would like to know how would the panel encourage or influence humans to get more in touch with females?
00:32:42
Speaker
bit of that is probably research and kind of self-motivation to find out that information because I don't think it's something you can just sort of kind of plant in front of somebody and teach so that you've got to have the desire and the want to kind of do that first and as Nat said a lot so I think it's a lot of means of doing that now whether it's podcasts or whether it's reading. I think it's seeking out how you can do that you know and again making it an obvious thing that it's okay to go and do that as well
00:33:08
Speaker
I think learning about each other's behaviours I think is a really good thing and actually learning what those behaviours actually are and having some conversation actually with somebody that you might feel really represents those actually having a conversation about how they kind of empower themselves and those they hate.
00:33:38
Speaker
I think the story that you told about the industry leader who that they wish they had, that should be heard by all people.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yeah, Mogao, honestly, I 100% recommend going to listen to that podcast that he does for Stephen Bartender, but he's got his own. He's got an amazing story to share. He lost his son very young and he just speaks a lot of brilliant truth. I think a lot you can learn from. And if you've got somebody who's been so hyper-masculine and their reflection on their career is...
00:34:13
Speaker
I wish I was more feminine. And that's not talking about male and female traits, that's talking about masculine and feminine traits, that's just to be clear. I think that's unbelievably powerful. Okay. I was at an event the other day and I had massive imposter syndrome. So I'm on Instagram and I'm very vocal on Instagram, but when I actually get to these events, I just get it so bad. And I was wondering how you guys, obviously you deal with it before and after, but when you're actually in that situation,
00:34:43
Speaker
What do you do to help you to like actually talk to these people and not get all shy and stuff? I think actually it's natural that there is a lot to be said for the deep breath moment. That sounds a bit flippant, but I think if you can really consciously think about in that moment how you're feeling, just take that breath in that few seconds. It's incredibly powerful.
00:35:05
Speaker
But equally, I think we all work in that space that you kind of fake it till you make it and you're trying to, yeah, Rebecca's smart. So I think it is experience that helps you kind of lean into that feeling and not be so afraid of it. I think I say to Lou all the time, Dr. Pepper, what's the worst that can happen? We all watch those. They open the fridge and everything falls on in the supermarket. What's the worst that's going to happen if you're going to walk up to somebody and say, hey,
00:35:33
Speaker
They're all in that room in the same situation as you, you know, they've all come together and I'm pretty damn sure that they're also feeling the same way. So actually why not just start with that vulnerable piece and say, look, this is a big deal for me to kind of be here and have that conversation. So I think that's when you get to have some really open and vulnerable, you know, and someone else is probably feeling the same way.
00:35:55
Speaker
I think Rebecca you tell a really beautiful point sometimes and that is actually you just can't presume because actually I watched your Instagram and I said I thought you're an influencer when you came today. People wouldn't believe that of you and so you saying that today would only have connected you to more people in this room who are now going to come and have that conversation with you.
00:36:15
Speaker
I think being open and honest is really, really important about how you feel. I know that you deserve it as well. And all chef men. I was the only woman in there, so that obviously made it. Well done you. Yeah, I was the only one, so. Got a prayer though, it was all right. Last one quick question to the panel, probably the room. Third and foremost, what an amazing day and congratulations to everyone, it is brilliant. From my, it's probably a plea really, and a call to the room to help me and the UK food team.
00:36:44
Speaker
One of the things that I've really noticed since I've been in Israel over the last couple of years is I just haven't got a female inspirational leader in Chef White's and I need your help to find and unlock that. We've got fantastic female ambassadors around that UK food table but not necessarily in Chef White's and I'd like to maybe ask the floor about what's your fault and
00:37:08
Speaker
potentially opening that pathway. And if there is talent out there, AKA some of these people in the room, what do we need to do as a business to open that and get a female inspirational leader sitting in that, on that table? You know, we've got good chef partners, aren't we? You know, Ruth and Bettina and Twi, but what else does the panel think we need to do?
00:37:30
Speaker
Can I answer that question? Yeah. For me, Greg, I think that for a female to be on the boot team will be absolutely amazing and be able to inspire a lot of young female chefs within our business. And I think they need that. I think they need someone to look up to. From a confidence point of view, from my personal point of view and be quiet open, I would not have a confidence to do that role.
00:37:50
Speaker
I don't know how anyone else feels about the chef that's in the room, but I think such a big role is about imposter syndrome again. That's about having the confidence. So I think there's definitely some talent within Bats of Story. It's just about finding that and giving them the support and the growth and the leadership and the skills to be able to come up from wherever they are within our business. So I think from
00:38:14
Speaker
Getting someone into that role that you're looking for, they're definitely in there. They just need the growth to flourish and support from their managers. And I think that's key as well. I think sometimes that gets missed from a chef's point of view. It definitely does. So, you know, there's a lot of talent in our business. They're definitely out there.
00:38:31
Speaker
I suppose my question as well is how do you help that step to get there as well? So if it does feel too big, okay, so is there not three or four of you that could tackle that there's a regional person that kind of said, actually, do you know what, together? And I said earlier, you know, one woman has power, together you have impact, actually, how do you maybe kind of say, we're going to take a slightly different route to this? We're not just going to go for one job. So, you know, how do you all come together and say actually collectively, how can we influence and how can we have that impact?
00:38:57
Speaker
rather than just say actually there's one role, why can't you think about another step in between before you kind of, somebody gets that. And we've definitely got an opportunity with what Rise are focusing in on and the Chef Academy as well was part of that kitchen, that whole piece around.
00:39:13
Speaker
Kitchen culture is all inclusive, as you know, in terms of the areas that we're touching on. And progression has to be part of that. I see the talent. I see no reason why there can't be someone already within the best story of business to fulfill that. And we can make it happen through that project that we're looking at.
00:39:31
Speaker
First on that with the chef cadmé, obviously I look after the chef cadmé. This year, interestingly, actually we had 25 applicants for level five, which is our senior level. And of that we had two females apply and one made it on to the program out of the 25 of 14 places.
00:39:51
Speaker
forward I think we need to discover why people are not putting themselves forward or not being encouraged or what's blocking them from coming forward because like Greg said we're not seeing that talent at the top so maybe people that are not quite there in their career and not seeing that they can be there that there's a place for them I don't know it's something that I really want to kind of work on
00:40:14
Speaker
Maybe we should take a bit of a reality TV approach rather than wait for people to apply. You go and head hunt. So I think that's something that we've got to do. And that's where there's a lot of people here that know some really serious talent. It's like start nominating, but I wouldn't sit there and wait for them to come to you. You know this business. So go and tap them up and tell them the benefits and have that conversation. I think we've got to look at that.
00:40:39
Speaker
So please, please reach out and talk to us because I know how much talent's out there and when the opportunity's come, go back to your point, Jeremy, which is a really valid point and it's something for us to look at is that confidence for some reason is stopping someone going through that door because that door's been open a few times over the last 18 months to find that superstar. We know they're in our business. I just need that help and I need all of your help in that room to encourage
00:41:07
Speaker
call someone through that door because the chairs there, you know, and we want them there. So yeah, definitely. I think the thing that I've seen in the business is that when we're recruiting chefs into our chef teams, obviously kitchen culture, traditionally the leaders of the kitchen have been men in the past. And I know there's a lot of unconscious bias.
00:41:29
Speaker
happening we all do it in the room but maybe we need to look at how we're interviewing those chefs and making sure that on the panel or on the interview you've got both genders or you know a range of people interviewing that person because
00:41:45
Speaker
We all do unconscious bias and we're all trying to undo it. And that might then help getting more women into the kitchen, which will then help more women get on the chef academy. And it will all roll up into more women. My question is we've got some amazing up and coming talent in this room and in our business, some force to be reckoned with. So if you were to give them or give yourself piece of advice, just one piece of advice each of the younger you, what would it be?
00:42:13
Speaker
I think if you can manage to be confident and go to a meeting and just have that confidence, don't doubt that you can do it, then what if you get to that bit? Go in, do it, and what's the work? Yeah, that's totally it. I think for me, what would I say, a younger set?
00:42:40
Speaker
It's a really good question. I think I would probably say be curious. I think a lot of my career has driven out of probably being helpful, being nosy, wanting to get stuck in. So I definitely think that be curious and go and try and help other people because actually I think that's kind of really helped me move my career on. It's getting a wider experience and like just don't stay in your name, get out of it.
00:43:07
Speaker
I think we also need to remember at the beginning of the journey, a lot of stuff that's happening across the board. So I see my role as an ally to any of the groups or anything that we have is spreading the word about all the great stuff we're doing, not just rise, but the other committees that we have.
00:43:23
Speaker
the fact that we have a head of ed and i know that we've never had before the fact that we've got the training courses that we're doing and thinking about it from the shop floor upwards so i think all of those things will then start to see the traction then we start to see the results so i think it's more than we see the direction going in that way if that will come out naturally i think that's what we'll get to.
00:43:43
Speaker
And if I can, the plea that Gemma obviously said at the beginning in terms of take that mind map and take it out into your teams and ask the questions as to what is kitchen culture and how can it be more inclusive for everybody about gender. It's all gender, not just male, female. Like if we only speak about male, female, there's no room for people who are non-binary or gender fluid or anything like that. So how do we get the data? Because if we get the data,
00:44:11
Speaker
If there's one thing that joining this company has proved to me is that Baxter Story do actually deliver and are actually committed to the journey. So the fact that Rise were able to challenge and to get an increase in maternity adoption and surrogacy leave, the business is committed to it, but we need to know what we're doing. And can I just say, and I think you,
00:44:31
Speaker
Elizabeth, Charlie and Gemma, you stood up, you didn't do some credit, you know, the businesses made some choices around what they were going to do for benefits and they were going to sit ahead of this level. You know, these three incredible women sat on the call, poor Aaron knew what was coming for him. And they went hard. And what that meant was that benefit didn't sit for 300, it now sits for 8,000 people. And that only happened
00:44:55
Speaker
because they were willing to speak up and have that conversation. And Lindsay, I think you're absolutely right in that. There's so much change that's happening in the business, et cetera. But you genuinely have to say thank you to you and to Rise because two years ago, Rise didn't exist. And the change that's made in those two years is just absolutely incredible.
00:45:16
Speaker
So I think you just deserve to share. Thank you all for asking some really great questions and we got the conversation between everyone going on, which is really great to see. Thank you to our amazing panel. That's a round of applause to them as well. Thank you. Please don't forget to subscribe to FYI. If you've enjoyed this conversation, there's loads already on Spotify and there will be more to come. If you subscribe, you'll get notifications. Thank you all for coming.