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Stories of Migration with World Relief
0 Playsin 16 hours
Daniel Yang is joined by Liliana Reza to discuss their work at World Relief, share stories of migration, and reflect on walking alongside immigrants, refugees, and displaced people.
Learn more about World Relief and their work around the globe at worldrelief.org. And check out the Faithful Witness Campaign at faithfulwitness.us for ways that you can get involved in your community.
Daniel Yang serves as the National Director of Churches of Welcome for World Relief. Prior to that, he was the director of the Church Multiplication Institute at the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. Daniel has been a pastor, church planter, engineer, and technology consultant. He has planted churches in Detroit, Dallas, Toronto, and Chicago, either as the lead planter or through recruiting, training, assessing, and mentoring church planters. Daniel is a sought-after conference speaker, missional strategist, consultant, and co-author of Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save the American Church (InterVarsity, May 2022) and Becoming a Future-Ready Church: 8 Shifts to Encourage and Empower the Next Generation of Leaders (Zondervan, October 2024).
Liliana Reza is the Director of Border Engagement at World Relief, where she advocates alongside refugees, immigrants, and displaced communities. An ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene, she holds an M.A. in Intercultural Studies from Nazarene Theological Seminary. Based in the San Diego-Tijuana region, Liliana is passionate about building bridges through faith, justice and community — often found exploring the borderlands or training for her next marathon.
Learn more about CCDA and how you can get involved at ccda.org. Connect with CCDA on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Follow CCDA on YouTube.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:09
Speaker
Hey friends, welcome to the CCDA podcast. My name is Daniel Yang and I'm a CCDA member as the Senior Director of Global Mission and Church Movements at World Relief. And I get to host today's episode and I'm especially excited because even though i'm hosting, it'll just be a conversation with my friend and colleague Liliana Reza, the Director of Border Engagement and Public Witness at World Relief. So Liliana, super excited that you and I will be having this conversation today.
00:00:38
Speaker
with the CCDA members.
Church Engagement with Immigrant Issues
00:00:40
Speaker
We're going to be talking about some of our work, which is helping churches to engage the issues that really are relevant to immigrants and refugees and other vulnerable populations. And we'll get into a little bit more of how sometimes those labels are helpful and other times they're somewhat Not at or at least they categorize people we want to challenge the church. But Liliana, before we jump into any of that stuff, i know we're going to talk about some of your works and my work, but...
00:01:09
Speaker
Love to for you to share a little bit about sort of like how you came into this work with World Relief and then what your role is. I've been at World Relief, I believe, 2023. And it's been just a wonderful experience just being able to work alongside and in the advocacy and policy team. So my work meets at the intersection of advocacy policy or kind of overlaps.
00:01:32
Speaker
Advocacy and policy and church, the church engagement or church response, trying to answer the the question that the church has of what is our responsibility in the public square. So helping the church engage in that, whether that's a narrative change, education, as it relates to advocacy, and really focused on U.S. Southern border, but beyond that, just how they can engage in the larger conversation of So many policies that are rolling out, so many things that are happening and in and across our country. What is our role and what can the church do in that space? And so my role really is navigating that space, helping churches be equipped to navigate it well, have the right words and language, not even the right words. We just have words sometimes to help engage in wider and deeper conversation. Helping churches. And then, I mean, you've been super helpful in helping even just like church leaders and Christian leaders really understand the issues. And for at least for the CCDA community, I know that some of you have been a part of border work, but then also a part of interior work, meaning working with vulnerable populations
00:02:38
Speaker
in the city that you find yourself. And so a lot of, I mean, I know when when I first met you, Liliana, I think, I mean, it was probably through some world relief meetings. You and I weren't yet on the team. yeah I was leading something called Churches of Welcome. And then you took our office staff and a lot of our senior leaders. We were down in San Diego, Tijuana. That was super impactful for me because although...
00:03:01
Speaker
Like some of us who live far from the southern border, we can tend to see things through the lens of media and the news. And I just remember learning so much that week through your leadership and guidance. But we're going to get into all of that in just
Personal Stories of Resettlement Impact
00:03:15
Speaker
a second here. But I know that for CCDA members and those that we serve, so much of our work is like driven by our own life experience and our own stories. And we will we'll jump into the policies and we'll talk about ah what's affecting refugees and in things that are impacting border work. But I thought it would be a good place for us to maybe...
00:03:34
Speaker
for a few minutes, share our own stories and talk about how we've entered into this work. And I can sort of maybe set a table a little bit by sharing my own story. And then we can also hear from you as well.
00:03:47
Speaker
i know like sometimes when we share our stories, this is for anybody, but especially when we're talking about immigrants and refugees and migrants, I feel like I can feel a little bit of pressure. Like I need to share my story to help somebody understand like the larger situation. Yeah.
00:04:04
Speaker
I'm learning how to be okay with that, but learning how to protect that. Right. So important. I'm going to try to model that. But at the same time, part of me is like, I don't want to be so paranoid where I'm like overly sensitive, but at same time, want to be mindful that every time I tell my story, it impacts me. You know, so much of my story is rooted just sort of America's relationship with the rest the world. And yeah,
00:04:29
Speaker
ah Most people are familiar with the war that was fought in Vietnam. That same war was being fought in the country of Laos. The war in Vietnam was televised. The war in Laos was not televised. And so part of the reason why was America at didn't have boots on the ground in Laos. And so they recruited guerrilla fighters, my dad, my uncles, and allies to the U.S., so the CIA and the They recruited the guerrilla units to cut off the Ho Chi Minh Trail and the to rescue down American pilots. So like John McCain, the story John McCain being shot and had he landed in the Laos side of the border, then Hmong men would have been running after him to to rescue him. After America pulled out in 1975, remember that scene in Saigon where helicopters are coming and airlift? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:05:19
Speaker
Like that same exact scene was happening in an airstrip in Laos called Longtieng. who So my parents, they ran to the airstrip, but they were not among those who got airlifted. So that left them stranded as allies of America.
00:05:34
Speaker
So they tried to find place in country for about three years until they realized that they couldn't remain in country. It was not safe for them. As a matter of fact, they were nomadic. They just lived off the land jungles for about three years. Swim across the Mekong Delta in 1977, 78, and they lived in refugee camps for about two years.
00:05:52
Speaker
And then a little Lutheran church in the cornfields of Illinois, they sponsored our family. It would be equivalent to like World Relief's Good Neighbor team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They sponsored our family out of the refugee camp.
00:06:04
Speaker
My therapist reminds me that I have a utero experience in the refugee camp because my mom was six months pregnant with me. wow. Okay. Yeah. So she literally was carrying me ah three months after we landed. She gave birth to me and then she asked the lady that led their little team.
00:06:24
Speaker
ah Her name was Janet. They asked her to name me and she named me Daniel. Oh, wow. Actually, my parents had never read the Bible at that point. Like they weren't Christian. Okay.
00:06:35
Speaker
So before they ever became Christian, she gave me the Bible. It was actually through that church that my parents became followers of Jesus raised us that way. So coming into this particular conversation today, it's very, you know, it's personal.
00:06:49
Speaker
yeah Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know what's happened refugee resettlement. We'll talk about that a little bit later. But it was my family and families like ours that actually helped to justify refugee resettlement in the United States.
00:07:02
Speaker
But that's sort of how I'm entering into our conversation today. Yeah, yeah. If you're okay, I'd love to hear your story. Yeah, no, thank you so much for sharing that. i Actually, I think I've heard the story multiple times, but like, I don't think I knew the detail about the naming, like who named you. And so i just, I find that so powerful and also so like, just beautiful. Sorry, I'm just like overwhelmed by that just because it's it's just so telling of...
00:07:26
Speaker
and the type of people your parents are. I don't know them, but it just, it speaks so much about them. For me, this is something really personal as well, Daniel. I think, I think about my parents' story and my own, like, embracing of my identity and cultural background and how that's, that's, like, been ongoing since I can remember. I, I remember, like,
00:07:48
Speaker
Crossing the border as a child, I remember engaging in border-like conversations with my family and especially in my church, a church that formed and shaped me, predominantly an emig immigrant, actually fully an immigrant church. And just hearing the church grow talk about without even having perhaps I would say maybe like the the quote unquote right language, but preaching and teaching and practicing Christlike solidarity and and accompaniment with the people in the congregation and and praying for one another and praying for safety, for family reunification. And so when I think about this work,
00:08:27
Speaker
Totally.
00:08:31
Speaker
it's always been a part of me and it's now just come to be expressed in this particular way that i can i can invite other churches to practice things that i' been practicing my entire life or or have't been a part of me my entire life i hope that makes sense totally as My parents are from Mexico. They immigrated to the United States and i was born and raised in the United States. Like I mentioned before, I remember crossing the border back and forth as a child. My parents actually became naturalized citizens under the 1986 Act or Admonstee that a lot of people refer to, but under Ronald Reagan. And so I just
00:09:10
Speaker
I understand the the fluidity of the border in a way that many people might not experience it themselves that way or understand it that way. But that is something that is true for me. That's always been true for me. Not only the physicality of it, the fluidity in the movement, um but also just an identity form. like I take it with me. I take those experiences with me. I take the stories that I've encountered and people I've encountered with me all the time. And I remember them.
00:09:37
Speaker
and And I think about the church that raised me all the time and how that influence, like I mentioned before, deeply continues to influence and form the way that I engage in the world. And even my role just as disciple, like a Jesus follower, what, how do I respond to this, you know, and going back to those things.
00:09:55
Speaker
core values that my little small faithful little immigrant church taught me of prayer and abiding in scripture, but also abiding in Christ. And that means like living into the fullness of hospitality and and love and compassion towards others. You know, as you were just sharing all that, we work on our advocacy team at World Relief. And in some way, our lived experience helps us so much in our work because I mean, yeah i'm I'm sure you feel similar to this way. This isn't just a job for us. like we're we're We're actually trying to help people understand the stories of communities that we came from. it
00:10:32
Speaker
Part of me feels like it makes our job harder, but it makes it easier because we does a really real we can we can talk about it like it's a real thing for us. you know We're not having to. yeah But the other side of it is like, it's hard too because like... Let me give you example, because I do want to get into like you know policy and people.
Impact of Immigration Policies
00:10:49
Speaker
yeah absolutely. When refugee resettlement shut down last year, oh man United States been doing refugee resettlement for a long time. But back in 1980, it was federalized by Jimmy Carter.
00:11:02
Speaker
But when basically it shuttered last year, you know which is my whole entire lifetime, you know was this been you know in some ways has been one of America's most popular and most...
00:11:14
Speaker
I guess, quote unquote, successful immigration program. hu I remember having a moment last year where I was like, I know that's just a policy, but why does it feel so personal? You know, like I remember even feeling like disoriented. Like yeah I was like,
00:11:32
Speaker
Because I mean, and I could hear like rhetoric around immigrants and all that stuff on TV and I could see the headlines. It impacted me. And I didn't realize how much of my narrative was based on how this nation has shaped its its policies, you know. And I'm just, you know, we're just one stream. There's so many different things.
00:11:53
Speaker
And I'm curious how, like in the way that we talk about policy and people, how it hits you and how you feel impacted by it. Yeah, that's a that's a loaded question. but We're not one-dimensional people. like there're just I mean, there's just that reality that we're not. i you know we we kill We carry the fullness of who we are into every space that we're that we're in or any every place that we're at. And so I think i think what i'm I'm hearing, especially in the last year, in the last few years, even beyond that, of these policies that are are dehumanizing ourselves, that are literally so violently stealing people's humanity. To me, that is so heartbreaking. And so when I hear words like in policies or even in table conversations or even in
00:12:42
Speaker
passing at church lobbies, like when people are saying, hi, I'm Bayan. What are you reading about? Or what are you learning? Or did you hear the news? Or whatever. And I'm hearing words like, illegal or or alien, or you know we should be helping our own first, or like things like that. It just becomes a a difficult kind of space to navigate. But I do think that it's necessary for us to to enter enter into those conversations and spaces. And so I don't know that I'm answering your question yeah fully right now. It's sort of like...
00:13:12
Speaker
You can't treat the the policies without talking about the people. Absolutely. They're not separate. Yeah, they're not separate. If you really want to help people, because there's sort of that mind frame that like, I don't care about the politics. I just want to help people.
00:13:27
Speaker
And it's great. you You want to help people, but you also realize that for some people... And for a lot of people, especially vulnerable immigrants that have come to the United States, the reason why they came here is because of bad international policies. you know It's like this you know reciprocal thing. And we can't we we miss a lot when we only talk about the politics.
00:13:49
Speaker
We miss a lot if we only talk about helping people. And it's never less than that, but it's much more comprehensive than that. It is It is. And it's not just policies. I do want to mean make sure that we clarify that it's not just international policies that push people into circumstances. It's it's more than that. There's so many push and pull factors. And I think, you know, there's there is the reality of policies that are pushing and driving people. But there's also like, and then when I say policies, I mean like that connects with like political unrest or or just like... so
00:14:22
Speaker
economic things. But beyond that, there is the reality that there are people being displaced for things that are completely beyond out of their control, more than just policy. It's it's it's a greater scope of that.
00:14:36
Speaker
And so, yeah, I think that's important for us to name as we're having this conversation, because I don't want to just say it's within our control, because it really is. but it's It's more than just than just that.
00:14:48
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Well, this is probably good point to raise because, I mean, a lot of the work that you and I do is to help churches better understand like this healthy tension between engaging people and then also engaging those that can actually sort of bring systemic change. And the church doesn't always see themselves very clearly in that role. you know Our work is to not just advocate to our leaders, but we are advocating to the church. Yeah.
00:15:16
Speaker
Like your work has been largely ah like focus on the border and that's changed a little bit this past year as well. But share a little bit about world release work at the border and yeah sort of like why we engage there.
00:15:30
Speaker
Yeah, we have been engaging at the border since 2016, I believe. And really kudos to the Southern California office. and i There's a couple of people that are wholesale members that are part of that office. So shout out to them and the good work that they've been doing for such a long time, really commitment.
00:15:48
Speaker
And I think that that's really speaks to the mission and the vision of for World Relief is because we speak so so much and really our heart behind the work is like we do things differently.
00:15:58
Speaker
to, yes, respond to the world's greatest crisis in in the world, but we do that boldly and in partnership with the church. And so our presence at the border is because of a partnership with the local church there. And and that happened organically in 2016, just like churches,
00:16:15
Speaker
wanting to more deeply engage and respond to what was happening during that time in the and the borderlands in south and Southern California. And so the work actually there has looked different throughout the years. But most most recently, what that looks like is actually really leaning into...
00:16:31
Speaker
advocacy education through like experiential learning or immersive learning. And that means that we bring pastors to come in here from our local partners on the ground, spend time with them, hear about the things that they're navigating, i see a bit of the response work, but also learn a little bit about the history of the border and beyond that, the work and the commitment that we have to engage in policy in the public square. To be like more specific. Okay, so we're learning these things, but we're learning these things to want to engage in the public square and to do that through our church and equip our church to have the right words, to know how to vote, to know how to engage in conversations, to know how to
00:17:13
Speaker
read the news and understand it within context and and know
Church Leaders' Transformation Through Immersion
00:17:17
Speaker
what's going on. And so that's a little bit about the work that we've been doing, but that's also had other expressions like providing some programmatic support to our partners on both sides of the border um in their response to the humanitarian crisis there. And that could look like so many different things. And so there's been different iterations or expressions of the type of work that we have been doing so faithfully for such a long time that I wanted just to stick in and give you a little bit of a brief overview of the last almost 10 years now, actually, i just did the math really quickly in my head. I'm like, wait, that's almost 10 years of doing um doing that work. And honestly, we can't do that work without our local office and without our local church partners, because it's they're really the ones that are driving the work and being the faithful on the ground every single day, living into the invitation to be hospitable to neighbors and whatever expression that that comes out of. Yeah, I think yeah from from my experience and understanding,
00:18:13
Speaker
one of the the big sort of just like aha moments for some people. And it's sort of like, they kind of know this, but you know, when they see it, it's the fact that like the church is present, like, on both sides of the borders, the church is engaged, both sides of the borders.
00:18:27
Speaker
You know, as far as sort of their day-to-day concern, this is not a partisan thing for them. It's just a reality for them. Correct. Yeah. And they often are actually serving other sisters and brothers in Christ who are migrants, not all the time, but ah other migrants that are sisters and brothers in Christ. That's true. Yeah.
00:18:44
Speaker
i'm I'm curious, as you've been doing this work for some time, like what are the kinds of transformations that you've seen or those aha moments? Yeah. people or Or stories, yeah. There's been so many. And I think the reality is people arrive with a certain sort of uncertainty. you know is is it true what...
00:19:01
Speaker
what I've heard? Is it true what I've seen? Can it be true? what what you know So they arrive with a lot of questions, some uncertainty. And then in the midst of those you know and the midst of those days, we wrestle through those questions, hopefully providing some answers. And I feel like some some pastors and leaders that have attended or been a part of these team or cohorts have really been able to say, yes, this has helped me have a greater understanding.
00:19:31
Speaker
and now my church, and myself, my family, and my my church have been engaged not only in more deeper learning, but now we want to engage with our immigrant neighbors and our own community in this way. And so I think that that's been a beautiful sort of transformation you know that I've seen. and It's not immediate. It doesn't happen overnight. you know um i think that's really important to just say. it's ah It's a process for for them. It's a journey like it is for all of us. But but i I have i have um heard from pastors and from other leaders that are like, because of this or because of this encounter, I've been able to now have
00:20:11
Speaker
the words to call my representative and say, but this is what I, X, x y z So the transformations look so different. They're not all the same, and but they have, they all have impact. And I think that sometimes we, I don't want to say one is bigger than the other, one's more important than the other. I'm just giving you an expression, like variety of of of expressions of what transformation has looked like.
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. not Not speaking on behalf of world relief per se, but I know that and like those immersion experiences, you know it's it's made so that we can sort of reframe the conversation that people have handed to them you know especially when that conversation is already predetermined about who people are and their function in society. And I feel like this conversation is handed to people already sort of like predetermined and and not that these experiences are, i guess, a deep programming, you know, and I'm not talking about just our border work, but in general, yeah i find that like when you walk on the streets and when you sit in the rooms and when you hear the stories of the people that are most impacted,
00:21:26
Speaker
In our case, you know, impacted at what's happening at our border, but given any situation and, you know, any CCDA member that has been immersed in the work of CCDA, they know this, you know, presence based ministry, you know, those kinds of things like it's just so important to hear from those that are most impacted.
00:21:43
Speaker
And to be able to understand and give them agency in how decisions are being made. It's so easy to kind of like say that's happening over there. are they there and yeah Over there might mean, you know, people, you know, in downtown of your city or the people up the street from where you live. And I think things like immersive experiences kind of sort of mitigate some of that, you know.
00:22:05
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. i think it also helps us see, helps us see each other. and the hope is that when you go back home, you can begin to notice, you take notice, slow down and take notice of your neighbors and do what Jesus did, you know, like intentionally go through a place in your community or part of your city that you don't typically take that route so that you can come to encounter someone who, you know, is experiencing something like this, that's the hope that we begin to notice the things that we hear, that we see, both within ourselves and our families, but also in our in our cities and our
Lessons from Jesus's Ministry on Systemic Change
00:22:44
Speaker
communities. yeah It makes me think about like, you know, Jesus spent three years doing one huge immersive ah trip with his disciples. You know, he's like,
00:22:54
Speaker
I mean, you think about this, like this is probably I'm i'm not being far fetched. You know, you know, we've both done theological studies, so I'm not just kind of making this stuff like. But if you think, imagine being mapped with a tax collector in jesus and Jesus around and you're like, oh, wow.
00:23:11
Speaker
So my previous career, I was a part of like wreaking this kind of havoc on my own people. you know and ah And not necessarily Jesus, it certainly wasn't trying to shame Matthew, right? I think there was a level of transformation when he received his calling.
00:23:25
Speaker
But I do think that there was probably you know a sense in which like as he was moving along in this immersive experience with Jesus for three years that he began realizing, oh, well, I'm a part of something. I've cooperated with something that in some cases may have helped some people and lot of cases harmed a lot of people. you know And then i think you know there's other probably other characters you know that were walking along with Jesus and they had to grapple with not just what they have been a part of personally, but what
00:23:56
Speaker
the religious system that they're a part of. And then the, the Roman empire and what it was doing to get forces this maybe healthy tension, you know, and then Jesus brings in the message of the kingdom of God. It's this aspirational vision that is so on the mountain. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker
And then it's drawing you to a future, but it won't draw you into a future without forcing you to, to you know, reconcile with the the present, you know, in a big ways. like And I know that for you, you lead our emergence philosophically. It's kind of come and see. Can you talk a little bit about the philosophy behind that?
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, so I actually want to take a couple steps back and I want to make sure that I answer your question, Daniel. but By emphasizing that the come and seek kind of framework that we work out of with our immersions is really out of the mission and vision of the work that World Relief is doing. And so our commitment is here and there. And so what I mean by that is that Our commitment is here and the work that we're doing here in the United States, but it's also there, wherever there is around the world. And so what our commitment is through this framework of come and see is come and see the realities that there are push and pill factors that are displacing people from around the world.
00:25:10
Speaker
that are arriving to our doorstep. And it is our responsibility as followers of Jesus to consider what will our response be? How will we engage?
00:25:20
Speaker
And the hope is that they will engage, right? That they will find creative ways to engage and that the Spirit will help them understand what the expression of engagement will be. But it's really bringing to light what is happening here and there and how that the really migration has been happening.
00:25:36
Speaker
ah Since the beginning of time, I mean, you and I know this both like through the theological framework and just reading of scriptures where we're we're seeing people be on the move constantly, constantly. And so I think it's it's that framework that we're talking about when we're saying, come and see, come and see God on the move through his people that are on the move. Come and see how God is so faithful you.
00:25:58
Speaker
to walk alongside, to be with the church wherever the church is, because the church is on the move because you and I are the church. And so therefore we we go, we go where we are called to. And even when we think about push and pull factors, we see throughout scripture as well that push and pull factors are not just famine and political unrest. They're also sometimes even God's command of like, go, go to the nations and go and preach the good news. And so I think about the the frameworks or even the labels that we, you know,
00:26:27
Speaker
have for understanding migration, which can be helpful for us just as people because it is such ah an intense and large kind of system that we've created in regards to immigration policies and all the other stuff.
00:26:40
Speaker
But when we're speaking about refugee, asylum seeker, TPS or temporary protected status, when we're speaking about people that are displaced for a number, we're speaking about the people of God. And so i think it's so important for us to really come into these conversations recognizing God's movement in and through and through them.
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Especially now, I mean, I don't know if church leaders really understand like the magnitude of displacement now.
Global Displacement and Church Responsibility
00:27:12
Speaker
For decades, it's been growing exponentially. As matter of fact, if we were to look at a chart, like that that exponential curve has been continuing for the last 30 years.
00:27:23
Speaker
Since my parents were refugees, you know, I think numerically back in the early 80s, there was about 10 million displaced people. And today there are over 120 million displaced. And so maybe we can sort of pull back a little bit away from the border and just thinking about what's happening in the world. And yeah we we often experience and encounter people when they come to the United States as refugees After the displacement, after the conflict or the persecution or the you know climate catastrophe, yeah most most people may or may not be aware that June has been deemed Refugee Awareness Month. And this is a global thing. United Nations and other groups want to raise awareness of the plight of people who are displaced.
00:28:10
Speaker
120 million. I mean, that's one in 70 people on the planet. You talked about pushing pull factors and how that's you know not just one thing, it's many other things. And the church has always been sort of engaged. I know that we're in a cultural moment right now where some people feel a little bit gun shy or they don't know. Why why do you think Especially right now, you know given the increase of displaced people in the world, what's happening in the United States in particular, what do you think the churches should really kind of lean in and should care in this moment?
00:28:45
Speaker
I'll start with my Sunday school answer because Jesus would care. i think Jesus would absolutely be engaged and involved and and Jesus cares. Jesus cares about what is happening to our neighbor. Jesus cares about what is happening around us. and And when I say that around us, I don't just mean here within our boundaries of us, but beyond that. And so maybe that might sound like such an elementary sort of of response, but it's it's true. True. think you just mentioned it earlier in our conversation, you know, like Jesus's life was Emmanuel, like here with us, like wanting to be here with us. And so that kind of commitment is the type of commitment that we should have as disciples and as followers of Jesus. And so, yeah, for those of us that are are theologically like trained, you know, I think all
00:29:38
Speaker
incarnational kind of like lifestyle and beyond just ministry, really a lifestyle to say like, in what ways is God continually inviting me to live into the fullness of what is happening around me and and wanting to be light and and love in that space.
Service as Communion with Marginalized Communities
00:29:57
Speaker
And so I think that that's my My somewhat Sunday school answer. Well, and honestly, the Sunday school answer the most profound, you know, because I keep coming back to like Jesus's last words to his disciples, especially if we're looking at the book of Matthew 23. He's talking to the Pharisees there, but his disciples are listening, you know, the seven woes to the Pharisees. And eventually we get to Matthew 25.
00:30:24
Speaker
five And, know, oftentimes, you know, and we won't do it in exegesis or an exposition, but I know both of you and I, we could totally do that. Maybe we need to do a whole episode where we just do an exegesis on Matthew 25.
00:30:38
Speaker
But I was spending some time in that, you know, for for the book that you and I are writing. We're not trying to plug that right now, but you and I and Maya are writing a book right now. About some of these things, but I was spending some time in Matthew 25 and i was trying to, you know, oftentimes when you read that passage, you hear Jesus like lecturing his disciples. And I was like, well, maybe that's a little bit of an empire reading. Like, you know, like here's this, you know, guy scolding his people for.
00:31:07
Speaker
And I started thinking as he was talking about like the son of man, when the son man returns, you know he's talking and he he positions the son of man. Obviously he's talking about himself.
00:31:20
Speaker
King, you know, who basically king who hides himself among, you know, the hungry and the unclothed and the imprisoned and then the estranged, like he hides among them.
00:31:34
Speaker
yeah and and which is exactly your point. It's the incarnation, you know, it's eating God with us and not God with us, but God lower than us, which is like,
00:31:45
Speaker
don't think we understand like how he made himself, you know? And I know that resonates with CCVA audience because for many of us, that sort of is the incarnational ministry that you all have is a big part of your value system.
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah. And he he lowers himself to the point where he says that when you have done this, you know, when you've you you've fed, you've And you've clothed and you've welcomed and you've visited them in confinement.
00:32:15
Speaker
ah Or I would i'd say when you visit them when they're in detention. I don't think he's trying to create classes, you know. This is like the Dalit class in India in London, per se.
00:32:27
Speaker
a I think he's trying to say that if you would live my life, you actually would be identified yourself. you know, with, with the King and the King is among, you know, them.
00:32:38
Speaker
And I think, I feel like it's an invitation challenge in Matthew 25 it is not a call to charity. it is an invitation to communion you know with people.
00:32:50
Speaker
In some ways, when we think about the massive numbers of globally displaced people, this is not a call to charity. it is an invitation to to communion with those that Jesus calls his brothers.
00:33:05
Speaker
And so as we maybe wrap up our conversation here, i'd like to kind of come back to something that you were starting to kind of get at in that like sometimes displacement is way beyond anybody's control. no It is some policy. It is conflict. It is yeah persecution.
00:33:22
Speaker
It is catastrophe, climate, those kinds of things. But I would assume that you would think that like all those, this breaks God's heart. It doesn't faze him, you know, sure it moves him, but he's not caught of surprise. But what have you learned about God during this time?
00:33:39
Speaker
I don't know if power is the right word, but it's what I think about because I think about like, I mean, just just last week we were together at a detention center.
God's Presence in Darkness and Human Stories
00:33:47
Speaker
And I think about how and God is not beyond the darkest of places. Really, that's what I've learned about God. And i i to to an a certain extent, I mean, obviously, like i I feel like i've I've known that, but I've experienced that in a completely new way in this work.
00:34:04
Speaker
There is no darkness. There is no evil that God cannot fully penetrate. And I think about that because I i think a lot about our systems that we've created and how they in and many ways become so violent, not just in the way that they've been built, but also with their words. And and and I think about like,
00:34:22
Speaker
just years and centuries of creating things that have been harmful and continue to be harmful. And and a reminder of that God, God's love can work through that. God's love can work in the midst of that. God's love can break it. The fullness of God's love is available and working every single day in the midst of all of the darkness and all of the uncertainty that we are experiencing.
00:34:46
Speaker
The fullness and of who God is and God's love is is available and is with us. Yeah, I mean, as you were saying that, you you know you were quoting Psalm 139 where Bible writes, you know, even the darkness is not with you.
00:35:01
Speaker
The night is as bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you. And i think that it's easy to think about these contexts and just say, oh this is dark and horrendous. And to the degree in which people are intending harm or causing harm, that's true.
00:35:18
Speaker
But to the degree in which i God is present and he is present in, in along with those who are displaced and in our, in vulnerable situations that he's, he's there as light and the light different than the, maybe the, the manufactured light that, you know, we tend to bring as comfortable sort of middle-class people. Like the light of Jesus in the light of God is so much more profound and so much more transformative, you know? So, yeah.
00:35:48
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I really enjoyed the conversation. Yeah, me too. I feel like, you know, we're always talking about work in a more strategic way, which we need to. But I also think that this is like a really a good spot for you and i to have these kinds of conversations as well. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And so just a reminder to our listeners, you know, really what we hope that you kind of think through, especially during our cultural moment right now, is that before...
00:36:13
Speaker
is strictly about a political conversation. It's a human it's a human story. Yeah, absolutely. It is about people who have real lives. and so um And before their statistics, their families, and as followers of Jesus, you know we are called to see them the way that Jesus sees them. So yes, kudos to that Sunday school answer because way much more profound than anything.
00:36:36
Speaker
Well, hey, friends, thanks for listening to the CCDA podcast. Thanks for joining us. you want to learn more about CCDA, the Faithful Witness campaign, and the work that Liliana and I do at World Relief, check out the show notes for this episode. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.
00:36:53
Speaker
And this episode is produced by Sarah Cowlin in association with Christina Fore. And we'll be back soon with another episode featuring CCDA practitioners. who are committed to seeing people and communities experience God's shalom.
00:37:07
Speaker
We'll see then.