Transcript
Speaker: Hi friends, before we begin, we want to offer a brief word of care. This episode includes reflections on immigration detention in the United States, including descriptions of harm, injustice, and forms of violence experienced by individuals and families.
Speaker: These realities are not abstract, they are personal, and they can be difficult to hear. We share this conversation because these stories matter and also want you to be mindful as you listen.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the CCDA podcast. My name is Christina For and I'm the Director of Engagement and Mobilization here at CCDA. And over the last year, CCDA has been a part of the Faithful Witness campaign, working alongside MICA Catalyst in our local communities.
Speaker: The Faithful Witness campaign is a shared evangelical initiative committed to forming the church for courageous, nonviolent, gospel-rooted engagement around immigration at this moment.
Speaker: Inspired by the witness of the early church, we seek to discern and move together to be faithful witnesses to what we have seen and heard. it is a joint effort between CCDA, the National Association of Latino Evangelicals, World Relief, and Undivided.
Speaker: and today I'm really privileged to be joined by a special guest, Pastor Wilbur Marenko, who is here to share a little bit about who he is, his story around his recent detainment,
Speaker: and what he wants us as the church to hear today. Thank you, Wilbur, for being here with us today. Will you share a little bit about your background and story with us? Thank you.
Speaker: Yes, thank you for the invitation. I would say that I'm privileged to be here and share my story with many people and also with ah churches' communities.
Speaker: So my name is Wilbur Marenko. I am married to Raquel Obando, my wife, and I have two kids, a boy and a girl. My son is 16 and my daughter is 12.
Speaker: And also we are all Nicaraguans. I was a church planter in Nicaragua and also a business owner, same in Nicaragua. At the same time, both working bi-vocational as a church planter and a business owner.
Speaker: We left Nicaragua in 2018 and we moved in Florida in 2019. There is a lapse where we lived in different countries, but we moved in Florida in 2019. And since then, we're here living and plugged into our community.
Speaker: I am an elder pastor with Church for the Beach in Indian Harbor Beach. And also, I am a pastor for the same church for the Hispanic group.
Speaker: Thanks for sharing. And I wanted to hear a little bit more, too, about just your time in Nicaragua. I and know you had to leave under very hard circumstances. Do you mind sharing a little bit of your story there?
Speaker: Yes, of course. Nicaragua, I'm going to say in 2018, there was change in the government. So the government wanted to increase the taxes and all that is stuff that is happening politically. and Once that happened in Nicaragua, there were some people affected because of the changes in the tax reform. And there were some businesses and companies protesting against the taxation because we were all affected.
Speaker: We were, you know, want to be heard. And that's why we went out to protest against the government and all the rules being imposed. Everybody was kind of like seeing the injustice of the government, ah disproportionately force from the police officers attacking people on the protests.
Speaker: and on the streets. And when that happened, many people outside on the streets, they joined to the protest from every city in Icarawa because they saw the the injustices outside.
Speaker: And the country was in a very difficult position because the the government didn't want to concede the, you know, the demands of the people, the population.
Speaker: So that's when everybody was kind of like in disagreement and requesting their resignation from the president. In my personal experience, the vice president of the retired police officers that got into my home just requesting a service because we ah usually provide services for them.
Speaker: And once he was requesting na service, he was kind of like telling a so a a story saying, all my dad was part of the Contras when their revolution was happening in the eighty s And if I saw my dad fighting against their revolution, what I defend, I i was going to shoot my dad in his head. Oh my gosh.
Speaker: And then when he said that, I was, wow, that's crazy. And he asked me about if I was kind of like protesting against the government.
Speaker: And because of the fear, i said, no, I lie. But then he was kind of like, okay, if I see somebody that I know protesting against the government, so then I'm going to shoot him on his head.
Speaker: And that was a real threat direct for me and for my family. So that's when I was kind of like, okay, that is clear for me, a clear message.
Speaker: He left my business, my business location. And then... My wife and thought about it and we thought that we couldn't stay in a safe situation in Nicaragua.
Speaker: So that's what we were thinking about to leave. There is a long story behind that. i get I got the visa approval in El Salvador because the embassy in Nicaragua was closed. in there were some friends in Ohio that they were inviting us to stay safe at least for a month or two.
Speaker: And we went to Ohio. We flew from Nicaragua to Ohio for a month. But my business was still operating by my assistant secretary.
Speaker: And she told me that this guy came to the business and she didn't know the details. And he was asking about what I was doing and where I was. And she said that I was in the US visiting some friends. And he was really mad, really mad.
Speaker: He was just trying to push, get information from from my secretary. And then he was, okay, I will come back and see him. That's when I told my secretary, okay, we're going to shut down the business. We're not going to operate anymore.
Speaker: And we don't have we don't want him close to the business because I i feel like he's going to see me as a threat for his revolution. He can do something against me.
Speaker: on December 10th, 2018, we left the country, my wife and my kids. We we left Nicaragua and we lived in in Guatemala for three months.
Speaker: And then we flew from Guatemala to Costa Rica. And in Costa Rica, we lived there for two months. and that's when, okay, we decided to come back to the U.S. But this time, our destination was in Ohio, but Florida.
Speaker: Since I do have friends in Florida, so my friend from here introduced me to the church where I a pastor now.
Speaker: That's the long story short. Thank you for joining. I know that's a several years condensed to one, but yeah, i hear a lot of just transition and movement and just figuring out like kind of leaving what it means to leave behind. I'm sure there's a lot of loss in that experience, but also like looking forward and trying to figure out what your like kind of purpose and what God is leading you and your family toward as you were moving from country to country and then eventually coming to the U.S. Yeah.
Speaker: It's also beautiful that you're able to get connected right away to your church currently. Yes. It was beautiful. It was a very welcoming church. And we felt like like family. Very warm. I love that. I love that hospitality and generosity from your church.
Speaker: Yes. I'd love to hear just kind of like what the life you've built over the last seven-ish, eight years and your involvement in your church and what that's looked like, your community rebuilding, you know, after leaving so much behind.
Speaker: It's really amazing because since we felt Church of the Beach as our family, We never had this experience before. We were visiting different countries like Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica.
Speaker: And we had so much people to know, to get to get together. And it was it was amazing. It was incredible. But nothing like nothing compared like when went to the beach.
Speaker: Everybody was like, if we know each other for the whole life, like if we were very close. That was the experience that we felt when the first worship service. And then we built community, we built relationships.
Speaker: One of the the vision statements of our church is connecting, building and transforming. And that is what we practically do on a daily basis, connecting, building, and transforming people or transform transforming life.
Speaker: That's what I feel like. Our church is our family, and we cannot left behind it. you know Now we are, since I started here, they recognize the ministry that i had.
Speaker: and in Nicaragua. So they were kind of like thinking, okay, if you want to plug in ministry here, you can serve with us. And as I was doing ministry with people, the Hispanic people outside of our church, they decided to explore the options for me to be an elder pastor.
Speaker: and That's why I was under the application to be an elder pastor. And I was ordained as an elder in 2021. Okay. And and I was ordained as a pastor in 2024 for my church. Okay.
Speaker: from my church Wow, congratulations. and It's beautiful, too, to see that. and i met even when you moved you and you were part of that church, you didn't fully expect to become an elder pastor, you know, and that's really neat. and They saw your giftings and I'm sure your love also for the Hispanic community that you were working with as well.
Speaker: Today, there is kind of like 19 Hispanics working in our church, and they plugged in into their service, the worship service and the structures of the church.
Speaker: there are people working There are Hispanic people working media. with their worship team the av media and kids' ministry and all all the ah structure of our church, is they are they are like, okay, this is part of our DNA right now, so we're going to work with our church.
Speaker: They basically felt the need to learn the language. They did it. and and also our church is kind of like, okay, we need to learn the Spanish and try to understand from your hard language.
Speaker: And that's why when I open a Spanish classes, They were joining, was like ah huge group of the first class.
Speaker: They were trying to learn Spanish, all of them. wow was amazing because they they felt moved by the need of speaking in our mother tongue. And they were kind of like, okay, if you did learn English, so we want to learn also Spanish, being committed with you. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker: I love the way that your church is able to identify that kind of mutuality piece of it and how do you identify the gifts and the things that matter for each community that are part of our church and how do we like share generously with one another right that's really neat around even just the language piece because i know even from my background like just there's things you can communicate in your own language that just can't be communicated in other ways in english and so i think that's so meaningful that your church was willing to take spanish classes with you all and learn
Speaker: that together yes how has it been for your wife and kids kind of building community in florida and in the church and how's that experience been like for them since they've been here It was good. It was really smooth.
Speaker: My wife didn't know any English when we came here. That was like the first difficult thing that we faced, the language barrier. I did learn English in Nicaragua and I could speak, at least communicate it at certain level.
Speaker: And there was still language barrier in certain level levels of the communication, but I was getting by. but Since the community, since our church was very helpful and there were some people in our church that they could speak a certain level, both languages like Spanish and English, Spanish at least, and English, their native language.
Speaker: They could relate on what what Raquel was struggling. And the she learned English by immersion, which is the best way I feel.
Speaker: So she did. She is doing great. Once I was detention, Raquel was coming up from the church in front of the people and speaking.
Speaker: And my kids, it wasn't difficult for them Just, I would say in the first couple of weeks when they started school, it was so many struggles for them, mostly for my son, since he was like and nine years old.
Speaker: he was trying to engage with his little friends, but he couldn't speak any English. But six months after, they were just, wow, that was amazing. I think they were speaking better than me.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, it's amazing what they can pick up. I have a nine-year-old too. I'm like, wow, you learned this so fast. Well, thanks for sharing a little bit about your life. I was curious too about, did you come in on asylum?
Speaker: Yeah, when we came here, we were exploring the options. What options could we have to stay safe in the country? We never thought about doing anything illegally.
Speaker: We, based on my convictions in the God's Word, we wanted to live by the law and doing everything right. So that's why we went to a lawyer. Our church helped us with that. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: One of our church leaders or or members is connected with law firm. And we went to Orlando to see this lawyer.
Speaker: And he was like basically studying our situation. and he presented the options that we could have.
Speaker: And i think the only option viable for us was the asylum because of the persecution and the threat that we lived in Nicaragua and that we couldn't go back to Nicaragua. yeah So that's why before our visa expired, so, you know, i know if you know that when any any person outside of the country apply for a visa, if they are granted for a 10 years visa, they have multiple entries.
Speaker: And once they come to the country, the CVP officer can stamp the visa for, or the passport for a month or for six months.
Speaker: And my passport was stamped for six months to stay in the country. So my lawyer was, okay, we're going to submit the asylum before the expiration of your visa stay here.
Speaker: And we came on April 24th, 2019, we submitted the asylum application before October, prior to the expiration of the visa.
Speaker: Yeah, thanks. That's helpful. Because a lot of people, I think, don't realize the nuances of both the ways that you can enter the country legally and just the nuances of like how many different qualifications you have to have to be able to enter in, as well as like it's actually not as open as people assume right to come across the border. Yeah.
Speaker: Thanks for sharing a little bit about your process in that. I know that today, too, a lot of what you wanted to raise awareness around was kind of around your recent detainment, Alligator Alcatraz. And so we'd really love to hear first just a little bit of kind of the circumstances that led to your detainment. um And then we can share some more, too, just what the experience ah itself was like.
Speaker: Well, first of all, I'm going to start that... When my lawyer submitted asylum for us, that asylum is called a affirmative because because that asylum is submitted to the USCIS office.
Speaker: So the next step is, the next step in the after the application being submitted is the interview. That is the next step. That interview never happened.
Speaker: big Never happened yet because we are still waiting for our interview to be scheduled. So we submitted as asylum in 2019, the affirmative asylum,
Speaker: and on February 11th this year, so last month, no, two months ago, we're on April right now. Yeah.
Speaker: Yes. I was driving and i saw a sheriff officer that pulled behind my car and he was following me till I get to a gas station pretty close that area when I was driving.
Speaker: And the officer pulled me over once I get to the gas station. Well, I was thinking about this as a regular traffic stop. And he came to me asking for my license plate or claiming that my license plate was kind of like canceled. I was saying, well, that couldn't be true because these these are the paperwork that we just got this license plate.
Speaker: And then he was saying, oh I didn't see a proof of insurance in your records. So do you have one? Yes, I do have one. Oh, see that you have a proof of insurance, he says.
Speaker: And then asked for my driver's license. I gave it to him. First of all, he didn't tell me what was the reason why he pulled me over. Mm-hmm. Suspicion was that my license plate was canceled.
Speaker: But at the end, he was kind of like guessing. So when he come back to my door, to my car door, he was saying, okay, step out of the car. I will tell you why I...
Speaker: did pull you over. so I did with no resistance. And then he put me against the car and handcuffed me. I said, officer, why are you arresting me?
Speaker: And he said, well, we are cooperating with ICE and this is a nice operation. So you were being detained by ICE. ah no And so I said, but officer, I have an asylum claim pending.
Speaker: And he said, if you have a pending asylum, that is nothing. So you are illegally in the country. I said, well, I have my I-797, which is my notice of receipt for my asylum claim.
Speaker: And it says I may remain in the country while while my asylum claim is being decided. And he didn't care about that. And he said, okay whether you stay here or being deported, that's going to be decided by ICE. So that's why you have to be detained.
Speaker: And that's why he took me to the Brevard County jail. And once I was there, I, let me tell you, I never been arrested before in my life. Yeah.
Speaker: So when I was arrested, for me, was really hard situation. And I would say my blood pressure and my heart rate was not normal levels. Yes.
Speaker: can imagine. And when I got into the Brevard County jail, trying to be admitted, the nurse just checked my vitals and she said, we can't admit him because his heart rate is so high and his blood pressure is so high also.
Speaker: So you have to take him to the hospital for medical clearance. And the officer was kind of like resisting the instruction of the nurse. And he didn't want to.
Speaker: But then a supervisor, nurse supervisor, came to him and and she said, these are the procedures. We're not going to admit him. He's not going to be in detention for the Brevard County jails. He's a nice hold. So you have to take him ah to the hospital for medical clearance.
Speaker: So that's when he decided, okay, I'm gonna take him to the hospital. And he took me to the hospital and in the hospital, I was like five hours being checked and I was handcuffed at the hospital. wow Okay. That was my health issues once I was detained, but what put me in humiliation and also in a bad or emotional situation was when I was walking out of the hospital.
Speaker: being escorted by by these sheriff officers. The people at the lobby, they were clapping their hands so and cheering the sheriff officers saying, thank you, sheriff. Thank you, officers.
Speaker: And I was feeling like, oh, goodness, I am kind of like the worst criminal right now. Handcuffed and also shackles on my feet.
Speaker: feeling like I am the worst criminal, that they are kind of like clapping their hands and cheering these officers. yeah So I felt so bad emotionally and when I was getting into the car. So one of the officers asked me, are you okay?
Speaker: Yes, I'm okay because tears were coming out of my eyes and I was just crying, just devastated, you know, for what was happening. And I said, they don't know me. They don't know who I am.
Speaker: If they know me, they wouldn't do that. Yeah. I was just trying to say, help me. But seeing that, it was kind of like a shocking for me, you know?
Speaker: Oh man, thanks for sharing that. I think that's just that last story I'm still sitting with of just how the appearance of you looking like a criminal being escorted by the police and and the ICE agents and just what that like communicates to people, but them not knowing who you are or your story or what you've gone through. Yeah, I can't imagine what it was like to hold both of those things of like How do i help? Like, I can see why you want to raise awareness. You know, like, this is not that my story. This isn't the story of a lot of people that are being detained right now.
Speaker: But yeah, and it's really interesting just to hear just the process of it, of you being pulled over, what appeared to be like a traffic violation, but then and escalating into this detainment situation, you know, and Even when you're there, probably talking to them, just like, here's all my stuff. Here's my insurance. Here's my driver's license. i'm I'm like doing the procedure correctly you know and to only end up in this quick situation where you don't know where you're going or what's happening and why.
Speaker: do they give you in that process any ability to communicate with anybody? Before I answered that question, i heard the sheriff officer on a phone call with a nice officer and the ICE officer was asking about if I had a ticket or an unlawful driving. And he said, no.
Speaker: And he asked, does he have any crimes? No, not in his records. There's no crimes on his records. And then he said, okay, we're going to pick him up.
Speaker: So they picked me up. My detention happened on Wednesday that week. and they transported me from the Brevard County jail and sheriff officer to the Orlando detention center. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So once I was in Brevard County Jail, it was a very hard experience for me. When I was in the cell, I requested four times a phone call combined with a Bible.
Speaker: And the last time I just requested a Bible because they said that I'm not allowed to phone call my family from Brevard County Jail because I was an ice hold.
Speaker: So that's why I was kind of like giving up on the phone call. But the four times that i requested a Bible, the first four times requesting a Bible and a phone call, there were four different answers.
Speaker: One of them was ignoring me, an officer ignored me. And the other one was, we don't have Bibles. And the other one was, yeah, let me see what I can do for you. And they did nothing.
Speaker: And the fifth officer said, that I interjected and say officer, sir can you bring me a Bible? Was an officer with a compassion, I would say. saw my struggles. She saw my cry. And then she preached a Bible from her desk and brought it to me.
Speaker: Wow. That was when the situation was different for me. I needed that because in my mind, I had so many thoughts and so many feelings in my heart, like bitterness, sent resentment.
Speaker: And i was also mad or angry because what happened to me. and I was thinking about the officer was very unjust. And when I got my Bible,
Speaker: It's kind of like God started speaking to me through this process that I i think about God bringing me a relief through the injustice.
Speaker: Wow. I stayed on Friday. Okay, that was Thursday, right? I was admitted Wednesday. Thursday, I was all day long trying to get a Bible and a phone call.
Speaker: The phone call never happened, but the Bible, I got the Bible. really close to dinner time, 5, 6 p.m. And next day on Friday, i was taken out of the cell, handcuffed and shackles on my feet.
Speaker: And the transportation officer said, you cannot bring this Bible with you. god And i said, okay. And he grabbed my Bible and he put it on a stack of Bibles. Oh, wow.
Speaker: on their desk. And I said, these Bibles were here all the time. <unk> It was kind of like injustice, you know, and they, whether be they didn't want me to have a Bible or they didn't want want to help me in the struggles that I have.
Speaker: it's hard tonight That's my con conclusion.
Speaker: And how was your, do do you know or did your wife and you talk about like how, what were they thinking from that Wednesday to Friday? did they know, did they have an idea that maybe you were detained or were they just were worried about where you were?
Speaker: Well, I share location with my wife and my kids and I didn't turn my cell phone off. So they saw my location.
Speaker: Well, they saw me when I was being transported to the hospital. She was thinking many things like what happened to him? Is he you know, hurt or what is going on with his health?
Speaker: And then they saw when they were all the time tracking me. And they saw when i went back to the Brevard County jail and At the end, they were kind of like waiting on God.
Speaker: But also my pastor, the the lead pastor Turfley Beach, he was kind of like moving in the earth and the heaven, trying to get me out of this detention center.
Speaker: He went to speak to Wayne Ivey, the Brevard County Sheriff. And he went, he he brought all the paperwork to the officers.
Speaker: to He went to the Brevard County Jail and they never let him in. He was calling a chaplain for me to get like a spiritual assistance.
Speaker: And they were doing all possible in their hands to take me out of Brevard County Jail or the detention. And my wife was in communication with them all the time, with my pastor and another friend that he was helping also in my case.
Speaker: Oh, wow. Yeah, I think those are some of the other like realities that we don't often think about when it comes to being detained in general, just like the families that are affected, the communities that are affected and how even though they don't know like so much of the process of the information or you know, I'm so glad that your location was shared because how would they know where you are?
Speaker: what is happening. So I love to hear this theme again of how your church showed up, how your past students show up and you're there talking with your wife and coming, wrapping around your family in this season too. And I'm sure that's, there's more of that because we'd love to hear a little bit more too. I know you wanted to share some about your actual experience b being in the detention center and what that was like.
Speaker: Well, that is, that is nothing fun, I would say. And every time that we were transported from detention, from any jail to a detention center or vice versa, we were going through the whole process of being admitted.
Speaker: Like I was admitted Brevard County jail first. And then I was transported to the Orlando detention centers where ICE is just reviewing the files.
Speaker: From that place, they took me to the Orange County jail. And was the same thing, you know, changing uniforms, taking pictures, and giving the information that we need to give.
Speaker: And... I was only 72 hours there, three days. That was the time when i when I could speak to my wife on a phone call. where her Her words were kind of like giving me a relief in my heart because I was worried about how was she and how my kids were doing, thinking emotionally, spiritually.
Speaker: And the one that was a struggling so hard was me and myself thinking so many things, you know. And my wife was giving me words of hope.
Speaker: And and i believe that this is happening because of the church surrounding my my family and loving unto them and helping them in and in any way possible.
Speaker: So that helped me and gave me a relief. yeah After my phone call, I was in that detention center three days, and then I was taken back to the Orlando facility, the Orlando ICE facility.
Speaker: And down there, they finally review my files. And let me tell you this, and I want to be clear on this. I found on the file many mistakes, inaccuracies.
Speaker: So, and I was thinking, how can they have so many mistakes in one file? And was able to read because I speak English and I can read English. But how about how about people that cannot read English at all and they cannot review and then sign anything? Yeah.
Speaker: on their files. So how is that possible, you know, for them to be hopeless in that way, you know, like, they need to at least have somebody like translating, or they need to at least know what they are signing, or they need to know what they are doing when they are reviewing their are files.
Speaker: The first mistake that I found in my files was that I had two entries to US. One was in 2018 from September to October.
Speaker: And the next one was the second one when i just sub submitted asylum and I never left. But my first entry was recorded in my file, but not the second one.
Speaker: And that was when, ah this is wrong. And top of this, they accused me of overstaying my visa. This is interesting because how can I overstay my visa?
Speaker: If I apply for asylum, because the asylum override any overstay because the asylum application is ongoing. And they said, well, this is the DHS charges against you that you overstay your visa.
Speaker: And I believe, okay, you could say that I overstayed my visa if you only recorded my first entry to the country. But I had a second entry and I submitted asylum before my visa expiration. So I should never overstay my visa because I am staying in the country, not on my visa, but on an asylum application.
Speaker: So he said, I'm going to check that. And then the second mistake in my file was that I was a Colombian national. It was like, I'm not a Colombian Nicaraguan.
Speaker: And he said, oh, but it looks like you are also Colombian. you you do Do you have a dual citizenship? I do not. That was the second one. The third one was the picture in my file.
Speaker: I said, I'm not the one on the picture. Wow. Well, is that true? Yes, I'm not the one on the picture. Can you look at me?
Speaker: And he took the files to another officer. And the other officer was kind of like mad, pointing his finger at me saying, all this is you.
Speaker: i can see it. This is you. this is looking like you. is That is not me. I know myself. And that is not me. Might look like me, but it's not me. I'm not that person in that picture.
Speaker: And there was another officer, a third officer coming in and reviewing my file and saying, oh I know where is the mistake.
Speaker: My alien number, my last three alien number is A72. And the last two numbers were transposed. So instead of being A72, was a twenty seven But how two files can be combined in one.
Speaker: yeah And i was, this is crazy. They said, oh, this never happened before. Well, how can I? Be assured that this never happened before.
Speaker: So at this point, I cannot trust anything. you know There was something in my file that I couldn't read it at the end because once I found those errors, I'm going to say, so then what's the matter with this? I cannot keep going.
Speaker: And they just like, okay, we're going to redo the file. They did it. And that's when they asked me if I was going to sign.
Speaker: Well, before they asked me to sign the file, I said, per my lawyer instructions, I am able to say, I refuse to sign. and That's okay.
Speaker: We can put that in your file that you refuse to sign. The officer was telling me, do you want to request asylum? said, Officer, I'm telling you that I applied for asylum six years ago yeah or seven years ago.
Speaker: I applied for asylum. How am I going to request asylum again? And if I, were if I, do agree about checking that box on requesting asylum, that means my asylum is going to be defensive. There are two types of asylum, the affirmative and the defensive one.
Speaker: And the defensive one is going through a court. But they anyway said, so you are going to appear before the judge because the DHS is charging you on an overstayed visa.
Speaker: With this accusation, you should go before a judge. That's okay. I'm going to talk to my lawyer and my lawyer will decide anything after this and he will check on on on my case.
Speaker: So they said, okay. They refused to stay put they refused to sign stamped on the file and they transported me with another group to... They said first that they were going to transport me to CROM, detention facility in Miami.
Speaker: But they lied to us. They sent Alligator Alcatraz. Wow. Yes. There was one guy that while we were on the trip, he was saying, we're not going to crumb because i've I know that we already passed.
Speaker: that location and that was ah during the night we saw nothing just darkness and on on on the sides through the windows and that that was when I understood that we were going straight to Alligator Alcatraz.
Speaker: That's crazy. We said, I mean, they, they said that we were going to Crumb, but they didn't send us to Crumb. They sent us to Alligator Alcatraz. In Alligator Alcatraz, we have to go through the process of being admitted. We got there to Alligator Alcatraz to midnight on that day.
Speaker: 3 a.m. we went to our final enclosures and I'm saying enclosures because I don't think those are cells. They are just enclosures.
Speaker: I don't think I realized just so much movement even within the detention system going between jails and various centers. Okay, so now we're in the point of your story where you're actually in Alligator Alcatraz. And I was wondering before you share a little bit more of just what it was like and obviously share whatever's comfortable with you in that experience. But Did you also have an idea before you went there of like, you knew about it and you're like, oh, this is what I think it is. And then and ended up what you ended up experiencing, how that matched or did it?
Speaker: Well, I, I didn't have any idea. i i I heard that that is not a good place. And of course it it is not. I'm going to compare Alligator Alcatraz to the Orange County Jail.
Speaker: and In Orange County Jail, there was some privacy on the toilets, some privacy i on on un the showers. Every inmate could take a shower anytime they want.
Speaker: And we had tables, chairs, TV, tablets. The phones were not close to the toilets. And I'm saying this because Alligator Alcatraz is the opposite of that.
Speaker: so in Alligator Alcatraz, inside the enclosure, there are three toilets and the toilets have no privacy. well No privacy at all.
Speaker: So the phones are next to the toilets. That is so crazy. 34 inmates in Isleigator Alcatraz are making a line and making turns to speak over the phone.
Speaker: And there are only three phones available. So it is kind of like 11...
Speaker: ah people making a line on each phone and the calls are on average 15 minutes. So think about this, people are just standing on the four foot wall where is a toilet, you know, inside of that four foot wall and they are making phone calls and people have to go to do their basic needs there.
Speaker: That is so crazy. it is just unclean and unsafe. It's not healthy. It's not it's not good. And the showers are not inside of the enclosure, so they have to take us to another section.
Speaker: And there was not consistency on the time. Sometimes we were taken 6 a.m. in the morning and some other times 9 p.m.
Speaker: So there was not consistency. And i believe the first week I went to take a shower only three times because they were not like willing to take us.
Speaker: The other immigrants there, they were telling me, there are some times that we didn't take a shower. And there are some times that we take a shower like twice a week or three times a week.
Speaker: Inside of that enclosure, how can I describe it? It is a big, big, big tent with eight enclosures. And each enclosure is kind of like 34 people inside.
Speaker: And we couldn't see the sun during the day. ah Neither when we took showers. And we only... could have the right to go once to play football or do another outside activity. And it is not outside.
Speaker: It's inside of another enclosure that have a chain-leaf fence. And you can see through the fence, but you know, you're not taking son It's, it's just like that.
Speaker: It is crazy. After each meal, after each meal, we were just searched from head to toes. Wow.
Speaker: Like we cannot take any food the enclosure. We were calling those enclosure chicken cages because it's literally like a chicken cage.
Speaker: It is so crazy. It is not humane. Every time that we were trying to see the doctor, we were requesting the cold sick form. And they took us like two or three days after our symptoms.
Speaker: wow And there were some people that were having health issues like back pain, cold and flu. There were so many people.
Speaker: having this like a virus everywhere. It's cold and flu. And they didn't have any medication for that. They took me to medical like two days after I requested it because I suffered gastritis.
Speaker: When they took me to medical, they handcuffed me and they put me shackles on my feet. Nobody's going to escape that place. Nobody. There are like eight Eight checkpoints before we got there and been admitted.
Speaker: That's the first. Second is there are officers and guards everywhere, everywhere. So nobody could like escape, but they are taking us anyway.
Speaker: Shackles and handcuffs. That's for medical. And also when anybody is having like lawyer visit, on Zoom or a court with a judge. well I was taken twice, one for medical and the second one was to to have my bone hearing.
Speaker: And i was taken outside with my hands handcuffed and my feet shackles. It was so crazy.
Speaker: That's so crazy. oh man. I'm just kind of sitting with all those details. And like, you know, there's a little bit we can picture based on some of the things we've heard or seen. But it's just like, yeah, no human, not even the worst criminal on earth should be treated in these kind of conditions. And i think, yeah, I'm really sorry that you had to go through that.
Speaker: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. So let me tell you, I have seen documentaries about criminals being arrested and having better treatment than the treatment that we were having in those detention centers or alligator Alcatraz.
Speaker: I believe alligator Alcatraz is not a place for any human being, for any human being. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And definitely based on just even your own sharing, I'm, yeah, I agree with you on that for sure. What about, what was it like getting to know the other people in the community inside there with you?
Speaker: It was good to learn about their experiences. And I'm going to say this, many of the people there in Alligator Actress and Orange County Jail Many of them, they didn't have any any criminal record.
Speaker: It was kind of like the same story behind their detention, a traffic stop. I remember one guy that he said that he was pulled over because his license plate was dirty. Oh my gosh.
Speaker: And I was, what? That was the reason why you were pulled over? Yes. They said, my license plate was dirty. But he said, my last name is on my license plate or my registration.
Speaker: So it is that was the excuse for me to being pulled over. they They should have said, okay, I am detaining you or pulling you over because of your last name.
Speaker: that was That would be better understandable or yeah more truthful. Oh my gosh. So, so many stories the same. They were like the same, just a traffic is stop or somebody detained unjustly.
Speaker: And I'm going to say also this, there was one guy with a VAWA application And he was detained for no reason.
Speaker: He was parked. They saw him brown skin and they just detained him. And I have VAWA approved, or you are illegally here in the country.
Speaker: No, I have VAWA approved. i he he He went to his country twice and he came back to US with no problem. But they said, you are illegally here in the country. If he is illegally here in the country, he couldn't come back to the country.
Speaker: And there were there there was some other guy, there there was Guatemalan that he went, he didn't have a driver's license, and I understand that.
Speaker: But his detention didn't start like that. He went to the Walgreens on his city, and he was buying some of stuff for his workmates that was during the night.
Speaker: And there were two kids. like es stealing or shoplifting from Walgreens. And there was this cashier saying somebody is shoplifting.
Speaker: She called the police officer and he said, he saw the police, the the police officer saw the two kids with their handfuls of these things from the store and he never stopped them, but he has stopped me.
Speaker: And he said, open your bag. And I opened my bag, he said, and I give him the receipt. I pay for this, officer. It's good.
Speaker: i I am not shoplifting. And he was trying to find something in him. he said, well, why are you were here? Well, because I was shopping for my staff.
Speaker: So then he followed him when he was walking down to his car. Oh, you're driving? Yes, I'm driving, he said. Give me your driver's license and your paperwork.
Speaker: And that was when, wow, he said, i have no driver's license. And the officer was like, yes, yes, I knew it, I knew it, I was gonna get it.
Speaker: And I was, oh goodness. So he was expecting him to, for him to be caught like this? So it wasn't a reasonable detention.
Speaker: it was just like he was searching through him that he had like this lack enough documentation for him to drive. And he just like was celebrating that, you know, it is crazy.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm really intrigued by just the various like responses of the people and the story that you're sharing and just like the like just based on just kind of assumptions, you know, and how important it is for us to examine those things in our hearts. Like what are the intentions or the assumptions we have about what's like criminal, about immigrants, about like detention or whatever it is, like about law enforcement and how that really can contribute to how we interact with one another, right? And we can dehumanize and not see the dignity of one another.
Speaker: I think you shared that in so many ways, right, across. And we can always choose, right? We can choose, like, a path of life or a path that is, like, destructive and destroys ourselves and our relationships with others. Right.
Speaker: what what is the How was your kind of faith experience during this time while you were detained? I know you shared a little bit of just wanting the Bible to help you sit and like have true narratives that would combat those false lies and narratives you were feeling, which are totally legitimate. Like when you were saying like the anger and the bitterness or something, I was like, I would be that like times 10 if i was in your situation, you know.
Speaker: But what was your faith experience like as you were going through this journey? Yeah. Well, first of all, I was thinking that why I was detained.
Speaker: Am I a criminal? And this guilt in my heart and thinking about, i made poor poor decisions when I just applied for asylum.
Speaker: When I was thinking, I put my my family in danger. and In Nicaragua, we were like afraid of police officers.
Speaker: And now I said, we are also here afraid of police officers. So once I was processing all the thoughts, I am praying God that God help me and do something good out ah out out of this or through this.
Speaker: And of course, he was He was working in my heart. He was healing my heart because I was resentful, bitter, and anger with anger. And i was also like ashamed in a detention center because i didn't want to be called a pastor.
Speaker: Once I was in Orange County Jail, I saw Guatemalan young probably 22 years old or 24. I don't remember it exactly.
Speaker: But he was sharing the word with everybody, and I didn't want to join to them. and But at the end, when I was reading a book about relinquishing or surrender to God, so I was trying just to give words of encouragement.
Speaker: I said, okay, I don't want to teach, preach, or share the the message, but I'm just going to translate this from English to Spanish. And I did that.
Speaker: And there were two guys from France that they were identifying that I am a pastor. Well, what why are you saying that? Because you speak like a pastor.
Speaker: And well, since then, I didn't stop like sharing the word because I think God was kind of like bringing beauty out of this and saying, okay, this is an opportunity for you to do to be on mission and to bring hope.
Speaker: And that's what I would do. you know Like, okay, there is nothing else that I can do. There is no way that we can do something else in here because we are you know arrested.
Speaker: i shared the gospel in Alcatraz with so many nations, so many people from Russia, a guy from Russia, from UK, another one from Egypt, Brazilian guy, the Cubans and all not Latin American nations.
Speaker: I was sharing the gospel with them. And I never saw many people very receptive before in my life to hear the God's Word.
Speaker: even Even people that they were considering themselves atheists or that they don't want to know or believe about any God, they were saying, so this is bringing us hope. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And we had access to Bibles in Alcatraz. They were giving us Bible, if per request. And it was good to see these many people have reading their Bibles and and listening to the God's Word through my teaching and others teaching.
Speaker: That was a good outcome, out good a good spiritual experience in that, in that place. Yeah. Man, I think I just really am admire your willingness to even get to that place of like, you know what, I'm going to like use this experience for good and, you know, share about my faith and Jesus with others. And it's, Really beautiful how, like you said earlier in your story, how your church identified that leadership in you and even people behind bars or in in these enclosures and Alcatraz could see that in you too.
Speaker: Well, let's share a little bit about kind of how you were able to get out. I think it's really helpful. I'm thinking about kind of our audiences. They're trying to understand the process. And I think you've done a great job sharing how, you know, the process of getting to being there. And then what was it like coming out of it? And then...
Speaker: We can share a little bit about later about kind of your church and their response as well. I think that would be great to hear. Our church was behind the scenes working so hard for my release, and they hired this lawyer for my bond hearing.
Speaker: i have i had a bond hearing on, let me see the date, I think it was February the 27th, And I was released on Wednesday 4th.
Speaker: The experience of the release is connected to what is what it is happening in Alcatraz. We built a community.
Speaker: We built like friendship with all these people. and I think my release was being pushed by church members and some other people that I know in Melbourne with some other pastors that they were calling to they the alligator or agatress facility or the ICE detention facilities to expedite my release.
Speaker: And so I was on that Wednesday after the launch, 1 p.m., they banged the door and asked for my name. And I think these guys said, you're out, you're out. And the other ones, I mean,
Speaker: My fellow inmates, they were just celebrating that I was being released and they just want to hug me and you know, giving me good wishes and all that stuff.
Speaker: But they were so in a rush saying, you don't have time for that. You don't have time for that. But I was like so happy to hug them and celebrate with them and they celebrating with me that that I was released.
Speaker: and trying to get their contact information. Well, after that was very, very good, a good moment, a good time of saying goodbye or see you later.
Speaker: i was transported to CROM. And at CROM, I was waiting like five hours to be released because the ICE officers decided to put me an ankle bracelet.
Speaker: And that was an order by the judge. The judge didn't order me to be released on a bond. The george judge ordered also only, i'm I'm going to say, just to be released on a bond.
Speaker: But the ICE officers decided to put me an ankle bracelet. That's why i where I was kind of like waiting five hours. And once I got the ankle bracelet, they let me out.
Speaker: But when I was checking my belongings, I didn't see my work authorization. And I was kind of like trying to find that first because, so I heard so many stories that they lost their work authorization or they were they Their work authorization were held by ICE people before.
Speaker: And that was like my first search. Okay, I need to find my work authorization. that Maybe that's not gonna happen to me, but that did happen to me. They didn't give my work authorization back.
Speaker: And yeah I was, these two guys from our church, they went to pick me up and they have started a trip, you know, to, from Crome, Miami to Melbourne, like close to three hours.
Speaker: And they they said, the first thing that we're going to do is just taking you to a restaurant for to eat real food. and that's what we did. We ate in our restaurant good food. And that's why we... I was released 9 p.m.
Speaker: and I got home 1.30 a.m. because of the, you know, the stops that we made for the for the food, for the dinner. But then...
Speaker: I got home 1.30. My wife welcomed me at home. my kids wear ah were sleeping. And i could see my kids the same day, Thursday afternoon, because ICE told me that I had to go to ISAP office.
Speaker: ISAP stands for Intensive super Supervision Alien Program. And they were kind of like reading the rules for my ankle bracelet and the restrictions that I have with the ankles monitor.
Speaker: So I had to show up for an appointment the same day at 9 a.m. So I just came, had some sleep, and at 7 another guy from the church took me on a trip because I didn't have also driver's license.
Speaker: They took my driver's license at Brevard County, county jail. They kept it, or they they just said, we lost it. We don't know what it is. So they they took the ability, they took me the ability for me to drive. So they took me, so that's why guy from the church took me to Orlando to have the ASAP appointment with isap It took like three hours.
Speaker: So when we came back, I came back at 1 p.m. on Thursday after my release, and i saw I finally saw my kids. It was very, very nice to see my so my kids and hug them.
Speaker: My daughter is not is not a hugger, but when she saw me, she hugged me twice. It was a very nice moment. Yeah, I can imagine that reunion must have been so like healing in so many ways with your family. and And I love, again, your church showing up, you know, like coming. and even with I think I'm so struck by how much you are trying to...
Speaker: do the right thing along the way right and but then there's constantly like new obstacles like i don't have a driver's license and now i don't have this work other days you have this ankle bracelet and consistently hitting these obstacles but the church is your the members and your community is filling in these gaps like we will drive you we will pick you up we will feed you um And I think that's that story of kind of the mutuality and generosity between you and your church is just really evident through all of this experience, them especially for one that's so, like, very traumatizing in so many ways, you know, and dehumanizing, like you mentioned
Speaker: right, Wilbur, what do you want the church at large to know just kind of about your city? yeah i know you wanted to raise awareness around what's happening to immigrants around the country.
Speaker: And how do you want the church to act? Well, I'm going to say that if the church is wrapping around immigrants like my church did, that'll be good.
Speaker: I believe that the church is called to be like the early church to breaking of the bread and also prayers and also the the the teachings of the apostles.
Speaker: Those things were happening in community. And I believe that if the church is committed to the real gospel and is committed to to love each other, to love their neighbors, they will of they will also love the immigrants but because the immigrants are also neighbors to to communities, to everybody.
Speaker: And it's very distinctively that our church is not thinking about me or my Hispanic community about aliens.
Speaker: They are thinking of of us as a family. And that is not... a separation between us. It's we are together and we have things in common, like, like the early church.
Speaker: yeah We are breaking, we are doing the breaking of the bread. in common. We are praying together. We are teaching God's Word together.
Speaker: i would like to encourage their churches to explore the beauty and find the beauty in this community, in these relationships, that it can be enriching the gospel and also how churches are going to love or show love if they are not reaching out others in this time of vulnerabilities, you know? This is a vulnerable time for immigrants.
Speaker: So that's what I feel like. Whether be the churches trying to obey their authorities, as immigrants, we try to do it also.
Speaker: We try to abide by the law. So we also see a system that is sometimes unjust and with no compassion.
Speaker: So the church can do that, can fill that gap. where they can show compassion and justice through the love that God has you know put in our hearts. and I remember about what ga the God's command that we should care for sojourner, which is the immigrant, and the widow, and the orphans.
Speaker: So these three things can be evident in one person. An immigrant can be a widow, and an immigrant can be an orphan also. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So there are so many cases like that. yeah and immigrants can be lonely living their life with no help. But as soon as they have a community, they will do better. And I feel like churches can can fulfill their missions doing that.
Speaker: That's what God has called us to do. Mm-hmm. Thank you. And this time i'm going to call you Pastor Wilberg because you gave us a a little sermon there. I think of our call to love the sojourner, call to be in community, or call to break bread and know and be part of each other's lives, not just know about each other.
Speaker: I think that was so obvious, too, with you the way Church at the Beach and you as y'all were journeying in this moment together. is like the only way you know someone doesn't have a driver's license is you're in relationship with them, right, in some way or the only way.
Speaker: you know that therere they would like a good meal is in relationship with them. And so I think I'm just really grateful for that example of you and your church and that relationship.
Speaker: Because you're not just telling us to go do this, you've been living it, you know, as well. And so thank you for that. Yes, that's awesome. Yeah. Well, I'd love to just close in a prayer for you and your family and the and your church, if that's okay with you. Yes. Yes. Thank you.
Speaker: hu Jesus, I thank you for Pastor Wilbur. I thank you for his family and for his kids. God, and even as we lament the situation that He had to go through and the injustice that was very present throughout the process, i'm not just overall, but in a lot of even little ways, Lord, and all the ways I'm sure he's still processing what that meant and what that looks like and why and how it kind of intersected parts of his identity and his spiritual walk. Lord, I pray that you would continue to be gracious to him and
Speaker: to heal the parts that are still wounded or still processing, Lord, and that you would give him the faith and the peace and the healing that he needs, Lord, as he goes through that process. I pray that you'd be with his wife and his kids.
Speaker: Lord God, who are also going through their own processes and that um and dealing with that and learning what it means to advocate and learning what it means to depend on others. I know there's so much um that could come in a situation that happened so quickly to their family.
Speaker: I pray that you would continue to knit them together and help them too find just joy and hospitality and love and deeply together as a family.
Speaker: God, I pray that you would be with Church at the Beach. Thank you for their example and for the ways that they come alongside Pastor Wilburn and his family. And I pray that you would continue to be with them as they process this experience of one of their beloved church members and pastors and as they kind of figure out what it looks like to advocate for the people in their community and what it looks like to wrap around other immigrants in their community and in their church. I thank you for their example, and I pray that you would continue to bless them and give their church and their members all that they need in this season. Lord, we pray for all of the people that are in the various detention centers that Wilbur mentioned, and especially those at Alligator Alcatraz.
Speaker: and We just pray for justice, God, and we pray that the things that are dehumanizing and wrong in these places that are not treating people the way that you would treat people, Lord God, that those things would be torn down. and we pray that these processes will be just, Lord Jesus, and that we can see one another as humans, as people um who love and care for one another. And even in the processes and the legal pathways, Lord God, that you'd help us to come up with more restorative ways of doing that, Lord God.
Speaker: And Lord, we just pray that the story today that was shared, Lord, that you'd you'd use it for your glory, that it would be a way for us to ex examine, and like we said, our own kind of biases and assumptions and figure out what it looks like to love one another, to love the foreigner, to love others.
Speaker: the immigrant, to love our neighbors. Lord God, you even call us to go as far as to love our enemies and help us as we even explore what those who those people might be in our hearts.
Speaker: And I pray that you would. I thank you for your the example of even just going through Easter of what it means to like ah truly love Lord Jesus and to see life that comes after that. We pray this in your name. Amen.
Speaker: Amen. Thank you for that prayer. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for listening to the CCDA podcast. And thank you, Pastor Wilbur Marenko, for joining us today.
Speaker: One practical way that you can take a next step is by joining the Faithful Witness campaign. In a season marked by fear and polarization and deep uncertainty around immigration, many Christians are asking, how do we follow Jesus faithfully when fear touches our own churches and families?
Speaker: Or how do we love our neighbors when the stakes feel personal and complex? How do we seek justice without becoming captive to partisanship? And how do we listen well to those navigating immigration realities every day and allow their lived experience to shape a more faithful response?
Speaker: I believe Pastor Marinko gave us some great insight into that today. So if you want to learn more about the Faithful Witness campaign and the organizations involved, check out the show notes of this episode.
Speaker: Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is produced by Sarah Callen in association with me, Christina Forth.
Speaker: We will be back soon with another episode featuring CCD practitioners who are committed to seeing people and communities experience God's Shalom. We'll see you then.
