Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Good GMs Podcast - 8 - The Devil Wears Plot Armour
14 Plays1 hour ago
Chuckie is off causing rambunction in Ann Arbor, so host James Austin Currie is joined by returning favourite and expert GM, James Gordon Ross, neither of whom, despite having three names, are serial killers.
In this episode, the bois dive deep into the machinations of the Big Bad. Whether you're running a globe-spanning cosmic horror campaign or a politically charged city-wide game, handling your main villain effectively is what separates a good game from an unforgettable one.
- Pacing and "Setting the Clock" Balancing urgency without driving your players into paralyzing paranoia is incredibly tough. Ross compares pacing to canoeing: it requires constant, subtle course corrections. If the players are dragging their feet, remind them of the time limit ; if they're rushing past great roleplaying opportunities, ease off the gas.
- Building a Skin-Crawling Villain The best villains are a dark mirror of your player characters. By letting a campaign "cook" for the first 15 to 20 sessions with low-level monster hunts , a GM can observe what the players truly care about and tailor the ultimate villain to target those specific moral values and vulnerabilities.
- The "Barely Succeeded" Illusion: Always make your players feel like they just scraped by. Spin the narrative so it feels like their clever tactics completely caught the villain off guard, even if you planned it that way.
- Poking the Party: Use dream sequences, bizarre realizations of cosmic horror, or eerie, untraceable telegrams to subtly pull your players back onto the main plot without heavy-handed railroading.
One of Us...One of Us....
- Slendermans? In MY walls? Our Discord can help 👉 www.patreon.com/GoodGMsPodcast/membership
- The true horror: Facebook www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61584454320344
- Perceive thyself and recoil on Instagram: www.instagram.com/goodgmspod/
- We all know what's wrong with YouTube: www.youtube.com/@GoodGMsPodcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'The Devil Wears Plot Armor'
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to the Good GM's Podcast. I'm E.E. Morris, and today's episode is The Devil Wears Plot Armor. And now here's James and James.
00:00:40
Speaker
Hello listeners and welcome to, and viewers, and welcome to another episode of Good GM's podcast. I'm James and I am not joined today by my my co-host Chuck, who is off trying to take over the world. What he's doing, we will never
Guest James Ross on Villains in Gaming
00:00:54
Speaker
know. But today's topic is actually similar to that. I'd like to introduce a guest. You've met him before, if you've been listening or watching the episode, well, I guess listening. I've brought back my friend and Good GM guest.
00:01:08
Speaker
James Ross to join us to talk about the big bad. Hello, James. Hello, James. um Before we get started, how you doing? Have you played anything fun lately? Is there any ah um any update on your on your game that you've been working on? or I'm pretty good. I've been working on my game and not playing games as much. Ah, yeah.
00:01:28
Speaker
Yeah, fair. It's it's funny, eh? Like, I've been working on the the game that I've been running is Mass Nile Lethotep, I haven't really had time to play anything, so I understand. um But, you know, we've got to make time for for fun as well, but this is this will be fun, I'm sure.
How Villains Drive Game Narratives
00:01:42
Speaker
So, you know, it's funny. ah The reason I thought of this topic, there's a few reasons, but one is because I'm running Mask of Nardolethotep, which is a huge game that spans time and the entire planet and beyond, if you really want to get into the details of where Azathoth is, um you you know, ah there is a lot of machinations. There's a lot of cult leaders in other countries working together right now, um you know, trying to trying to you know bring about whatever it is, and I won't spoil it for anybody, but That's part of it is like, how do i figure out what, you know, the leader of this cult is doing while the players are off, you know, Scooby doing it off to the library together?
00:02:21
Speaker
what are what What are these guys working on to foil their plans to stop the end of the world? um So, yeah, that's the topic. what do you What do you think? Well, I think to start with a summary, um I think Masks of Nyarlathotep is such a celebrated module.
00:02:39
Speaker
in the same way that Curse of Strahd is so celebrated in D&D, in that the villain creates the setting, the villain creates the entire at entire adventure, and is has such a strong personality that is affecting everything the players are doing.
00:02:56
Speaker
Even if they haven't met him yet. So many dungeons in this hobby, you know... whatever a dungeon is. Yeah. um There's a level 17, whatever at the end.
00:03:08
Speaker
And it's not compelling. And so we find that. Yeah. It's just sitting, it's just sitting in that room, right? Yeah. Waiting for you to walk into it. But what was it doing before you guys entered the dungeon? and What is it doing? Well, you, well, you're trying to jump over traps, right? Yeah, I get that. That's, you know, one of the other reasons that I thought of this topic is one of my first exposures to, role-playing games was Vampire the Masquerade. And that's a freaking crazy one as a as a GM storyteller in that case, where you have to know what, you know, 15 vampires are doing on any given night in the city so that when the player characters happen to walk into the the the blood hut or whatever the name of the bar that they hang out is, you know, who's sitting there and who are they talking to and what deals are they making? And you can either make it up as you go or you can spend time
00:03:59
Speaker
planning these things. So how every, say how every single person feels about the Prince and every other single fashion, right? It's a lot of work, but to make a really immersive, good feeling game, like my, my good GM who ran me through that was, was ah Jason um or Jason, as we called him. um He was phenomenal at that. Like he knew where every NPC was on any given night.
00:04:24
Speaker
And yet he did it while saving up his his Ritalin so that we could have it to hang out all night and play. um That never happened. Don't do that at home, kids. um But yeah, you you know, it was it's pretty wild when you have the capacity to do that. And unfortunately, i want to. I really want to. and And yeah, I'm using a module, but I'm also like thinking about like what the players affected while they were playing. How does that change the plans of the of the big bad?
00:04:54
Speaker
Like, what would you say is a good strategy as a way to sort of put your brain in order to do that between sessions? I think often for me, I, the way I keep track of it, I think of how the villain is getting their information.
00:05:09
Speaker
Hmm. there There's going to be actions by the players. They're going to notice. There's actions by the players they're not going to notice. There's actions or or just a happenstance in the world that is going to... The news is going to trickle to the players at about the same time as the villain. There's some things the villain's going to get first. And then, you know, the adventure's never quite on the rails on the rails, but you know the the players are going to go back to their home base eventually. They're going to attack a certain sub-villain eventually. And then you can highlight those being like, this would be important to the villain.
00:05:43
Speaker
These are linchpins of the big story. yeah And so on my normal adventure note page where it would just be like, this is their headquarters. I would take a pen of a different color, the villain color, and just like put a circle on it on the page itself being like, this is a villain spot.
00:05:59
Speaker
This is a part where where the villain is is noting, and this this will have some effect on the villain's attitude towards the party, some effect on their long-term plans.
Fairness in Villain Actions & Dice Rolls
00:06:11
Speaker
Right. Right. and Now, do you ever roll for that stuff? I know this is silly and it probably is a dumb question, but I remember times where the players would do something and I would have the the main villain had people following them and I would roll off camera, you know, to decide whether they caught those things that they did or if they if they happened to, you know, lose them or you know what i mean? Like, yeah.
00:06:35
Speaker
do do Do you let the the dice decide what's happening off camera? Or as a as good GM, do you think it's fair to do those things? Well, is off I have a whole philosophy statement for that. that's okay So, okay. one could imagine One could imagine that you create a birthday card for your mom right with random rolls.
00:06:57
Speaker
You could make a table. that said page one of birthday card, and they would have a list of graphics, like like puppy, duckling, roses, whatever, and then message. And you could roll out a birthday card for your mother, but it would be heartless. Right.
00:07:13
Speaker
How about you just write a nice note to your mother who is different than other mothers? Specific to your relationship with them, yes. At the same time, though, a randomly rolled birthday card for your mom is better than no birthday card. for your mom.
00:07:27
Speaker
Right. You know, I'm obsessed with the idea of being fair. And so unfortunately, sometimes when I'm doing these things, it's like, did the, the heroes like sneaking into this place? Like I had them roll and they did well. Do I need to also roll to see spot hidden on the big bad to see if they caught them? But the villain, the villain getting advantages over the party is the story is a good thing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:55
Speaker
It creates opportunities for them to play game. are unaware of won't not hurt them. Yeah, you're not being unfair. Because your job is to tell a good story. You're creating a crisis for them to solve. That's right. And making a no game possible. yes Smart. Smart. yeah Yes. If it was two players spying on each other, then that that element of fairness comes in. It's different because the villain is both an NPC in your head, but also the primary plot point for the whole thing. Yeah. If he misses the important details, then all of a sudden the players are running around without any...
00:08:29
Speaker
yeah What are we doing here? Yeah, exactly. No, that's fair. And I guess there would be times where I do it in times that I don't. And I think if it's on camera in the sense that if it's at the table, I'll roll because that's fair to say, did the guard see you? Did the, did the big bad, you know, happen to be watching at that time or whatever while you were breaking into his, his, his apartment? Yeah.
00:08:50
Speaker
That's fair. But when it's behind the scenes stuff, this is just us like, wait, are we the big bad? Wait, we are the big bad. We're the ones we're the machinations. We're the ones deciding how to ruin the lives of the player characters. I get it.
00:09:03
Speaker
Fair.
Creating Tension with Villain Plans
00:09:05
Speaker
So, yeah. the The best thing for the the villain to be doing is finding a the weak spots for the the players, the things that really hurt them.
00:09:16
Speaker
Character wise, not your not your players themselves. Don't make the people at the table cry, but no, it is important to their characters. Yeah. I get so many RPG horror stories of people being edgelords and like just trying to disturb the actual players at the table. No, they're consequential to the fictional characters. Exactly. To attack them there and just almost destroy them and then have the the narrative turn around and the players come back.
00:09:43
Speaker
Right. I think you said something last the time we we had you on ah we had you on the show. You said something along the lines of um always make your players think that they... did a bad job or, you know, so they barely succeeded. That always makes them think that they barely succeeded. Yeah.
00:09:59
Speaker
Yeah. And that's part of this topic, right? Like that's. Sell it a little bit. Just spin things a little bit. Like their, their most common attack, their, their biggest spell and stuff. Somehow you forgot about it.
00:10:14
Speaker
yeah They were so clever coming up to this. Why did I not think you'd use that? Oh, no, you used your longsword? guess he's dead. yeah yeah You can't oversell that. You can't get caught.
00:10:26
Speaker
Right. but Well, well like like that time when when you know I had this this you know hundreds of years old Chinese wizard... turn himself into a dragon at the Great Wall of China to ah to you know seize the power of an amulet. And I had a an eight-year-old or 10-year-old boy genius with ah with a slingshot. um you know That was pretty great. For the listener, that was that was a game I ran with, James. Savage Worlds has his exploding dice. Yeah, you can't do anything, but you got to be happy for when it happens because that was a great ending to that story. Like it could have gone on for another, well, Savage Worlds combat could have gone on for another several hours.
00:11:03
Speaker
But in that circumstance, I couldn't think of a better way for that to end. But we're getting off topic. um I just love that story. And it I think it was a good end to a big bad. But what I would like to do now is sort of like draw back a little and start from the beginning, right? the player characters aren't anything to the big bad until they're noticed. So at first the big bad is going to get away with everything, right? they're They've got this plan to turn, you know, the, whatever the let's use the King pin, you know, he wants to become mayor of New York and he's going to, you know, get rid of all the vigilantes or whatever. ah You know, he wants, he just wants the power. He just wants the, the on you know, nobody to stand in his way of making money and killing people and doing what he wants until Daredevil shows up. Right. And he, you know, he's not aware of Daredevil until
00:11:51
Speaker
Daredevil makes an appearance. So from that, that's one, that's one, I'd say there's, there's sort of three, three archetypes. Yeah, let's do it. So I think that's, that's the, I think that's the most reasonable one that that's how things happen in real life. Most of the time, somebody is trying to do something bad and you get in the way almost by accident.
00:12:08
Speaker
I think there's also this sort of, uh, Magneto, Charles x Xavier model. where their friends and, and the the tiny think disagreement that seems like it was tiny to begin with turns them apart and they become adversaries. So your big bad could start as your friend. Right. And then you slowly build a split.
00:12:25
Speaker
Like Clark and Lex in the show Smallville. Yeah. Just to, just to get off Marvel for a second. Anyway. And then, and then, um, there's there's there's the sort of dark mentor type thing. If you think of um Unbreakable, ah Mr. Glass sort of fosters a hero. Sometimes...
00:12:48
Speaker
um You'll see the villain sort of pumping up a hero at the beginning of the story, expecting them to just be a pawn in their big evil plan. And then the heroes find out. Yeah, and they pull out of that thing. So like the wizard coming into the bar to send them on the adventure could be big bad at the very of adventure. Could be bad,
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. that I like that. I like that. So, so let's, let's again, zoom, zoom out for a second and say, okay, so the villain has a plan from the start and you're the one creating that plan or it's in the book that you're using as a module, but that villain has a plan from the start.
00:13:22
Speaker
And until the player characters start interfering with that and changing that plan, having them come up with like, damn it, they foiled this thing, but I still have a plan. how How do you, like, how do you plan? Like, how do you work that? do you have, do you have an idea before you start the campaign, like a line that you've drawn or you know what I mean? Like what, what's your, what's your strategy before the, you've even had players come to the table.
00:13:50
Speaker
For me, when I want, I i love doing the the epic length campaigns, 100 sessions plus. So for for that, I let it cook for a good 15, 20 sessions. Mm-hmm.
00:14:03
Speaker
um Do you have them laying hooks unrelated things yeah with those? They're doing ground level basic, you know, ah save the little village from the monster. yeah And just in the way they interact with people in the world and stuff, I can start to to see the values of the party emerging, the things they care about, the things they don't care about.
00:14:29
Speaker
And then those values and those concerns show me, The villain. The villain is going to be the mirror image of that. So you didn't have the villain when you started the campaign? No.
00:14:41
Speaker
Okay. Interesting. now Interesting. Well, it depends on the campaign. Right. The Game of Thrones campaign, you kind of... That's so political that yeah it's going to be a political adversary from the beginning. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:54
Speaker
That's fair. I did a Fallout game and I had no idea. Right. That's fair. Yeah. So so that's more of a... You start the game with the... the genre in mind and then you go into the, you start creating your big old story arc. So yeah, I think, I think back and I like to talk about, um I mean, kids today, right? They don't understand what it was like to have 24 episodes of a TV series. in a season so you could have your you know let's go investigate the sasquatch in this town and let's go let's go fight the little little vampires that are attacking our our our our high school so that by episode four or five we get our first appearance of the big bad and we maybe realize or don't realize yet that that's going to be the big bad and then as the so it's like episode four or five we get the first appearance episode eight or nine we get his first intervention into trying to destroy the the party and then by episode like 12 13 we have a two episode arc with him as the her as the big bad so that by the time we get to episodes 20 to 24 know what we're up against and we've already had time to assemble our like forces yeah that one season and then in in further seasons you would only get that big bad three or four episodes
00:16:09
Speaker
yeah Until that final season arc, suddenly you're getting a lot of the villain. Well, I'm assuming they didn't get rid of that villain and have a new bag bad for every season, depending on the show. But yeah, no, exactly. And that was the joy of having the 22 episode series.
00:16:21
Speaker
um You know, the bad side to the 22, 24 episode series is a lot of garbage to slog through if you didn't watch it from the beginning. But um like, try watching Buffy now. I loved it, but you can't really, there's no going back. It's really hard to do. um But that said, yeah.
00:16:36
Speaker
in that, in that sort of way, I had something and I forgot, um, in that sort of way, like, so your style is start with the, the, the one shots, the one up, the one off episodes where they're just doing this and that. And then you come up with the, the big bad. How do you decide when they're intervening? Like, when do they make their first appearance? What's your, what's your ex example? Like, I think the first time they appear, they should kick that this snot out of the players, but they should barely escape and go, how are we going to do this?
Timing and Impact of Villain Appearances
00:17:07
Speaker
Right. Like that's to me the the if assuming you're going to do it in that format. Again, again, i believe in my colored markers, ah probably, you know, about session 15 or something when they they take out some villain, some sub villain, like some little little monster in a cave or something, I decide like, OK, this is finally related to the big bad.
00:17:29
Speaker
And even then I might not have formed like exactly what person it might just be the sort of faction or like right before they kill the, the, the, the minor villain. They're like, yeah you have, you have no idea. You have no idea what you're up against. so Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
yeah I love it. Yeah. And then I just, I just have that circled and then, and then the way that minor villain dies or, or is defeated or something like that gives me clues. Yeah. what What did the players like about defeating them? Like oftentimes players get these like ah trash talk moments, like when they finally beat some fun player and, you know, somebody does the the kill blow or something like that. And the types of things they say will tell you what they valued about overpowering this type of evil.
00:18:13
Speaker
And you can sort of see what the sensitivities are and you're like, oh, oh, oh, okay. they write a yeah You know, this, this group seems to, to, to be concerned about maybe sort of elitism and, and, and bullying and stuff like that, this group is more concerned with, with um different forms of evil.
00:18:32
Speaker
Right. And just like tailoring it in. No, I like it. I like that. That's smart. um I had a couple more questions in mind ah before we, you know, we've got some time here. I just want to make sure cover my bases here. um Let's start with how do you set the clock?
00:18:50
Speaker
so that the players know, like, this is part of what I, what I i wanted to talk about. Cause what i mentioned, mentioned in the, in the example with the 24 episode season, there's a big chunk of time where the players, the, the player characters have to amass the, their big like strategy or or get the, an army together to protect the village that's about to be attacked or, or find the magic MacGuffin. That's the the, the big bad's weakness. How how do you set a clock?
00:19:18
Speaker
Because like in Mass Submire Lethotep, they don't know there's a clock until a certain point. And all of a sudden they're like, oh this is a big conspiracy and there's a time frame. And oh my God, if we don't move quicker, we we're going to die. Like what what, how do you sort of instill in the players that they're starting to figure out that the clock is ticking and that they have to start working quickly?
00:19:43
Speaker
Or do you do you do that and just let them drive through? The speed of plot is is tough. It's one of the toughest aspects of of being a dungeon master is balancing the sense of um immediacy and importance and and keeping that energy and anxiety up to make it feel like what you're doing is both important and and has to keep moving.
00:20:09
Speaker
but at the same time, not pushing to paranoia. Right. And, and over planning and things like that. You want to engender both a sense of wonderment and a sense of pacing.
00:20:21
Speaker
Right. And it's, it's, it's constant, but it's both sides. you You have to correct like paddling a boat, a small boat canoeing where you're moving the paddle back and forth. So the the boat doesn't wiggle constant course corrections of like, When they are sitting around too much and not accomplishing things, then, oh, remember, there's a time limit.
00:20:46
Speaker
right When they are throwing away good gaming opportunities, thinking they have to pursue the time limit, suddenly you're you're you're emphasizing... that the time limit isn't real, but. Yeah, how do you think that's subtle? When you set when you set that that, when you light that fuse, yeah how do you get them to to stop for a moment and enjoy the one-off episode again, right? So I get that, that's that's tricky. um And would you, like, I mean, let's talk ah specifics. you Would you employ, like, in my mind, I'm thinking if I want to get the players back on track, I can utilize one of their beloved NPCs
00:21:25
Speaker
you know, not necessarily kill them off every time I need them to care, but like maybe they get a note that's like, I'm going to meet this person. I'll call you in an hour and then they never call back and you're like, oh, that's not right. You know, like we need to investigate now or you know what i mean?
Engaging Players with NPCs and Events
00:21:42
Speaker
Like how how yeah much of that do you, how many, how many, like how many times do you poke them and what are some subtle ways to do it so it doesn't feel the same every time like that you can no I'm asking tough ones. I'm sorry.
00:21:59
Speaker
You got to feel it out and yeah it's, it's gotta be,
00:22:06
Speaker
I mean, you always want to be reestablishing the theme mood and tone of the game you're playing. If you're playing masks of Naira Lothotep and it's, it's international, uh, pulp adventure, uh, with this dark cosmic horror thing.
00:22:20
Speaker
Um, I would actually, I like to throw in dream sequences to bring it back. Yes. up yeah Oh my God. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That one works for me. And, and also like including new NPCs that are, that are just like, you know, they've seen something and, you know, just to be like, you know, they, they run into them somewhere or whatever, like just, just to put them back there. Right. yeah Just a telegram. That's just like a very odd person was asking for you. Yeah. Mm hmm.
00:22:53
Speaker
dream sequences um you know there's the sanity mechanic if there's any sanity lost if not only does the character have the symptoms reported in the role you can be like you you see a little bit into into the eldritch workings of the universe host yeah and and maybe the the the tendrils of of naira photop or something you could just see them for a second like yeah Frodo putting the ring on and suddenly there's that eye again. like Right. Yeah, no, that's exactly it Yeah, no, like i had a player recently have a a mental break and we decided it was like he didn't understand or he he he had this bizarre realization of how time works, um ah you know, like because he saw somebody who had painted a picture of something that he had seen years earlier, but the painting happened years later. And it was like he was starting to have this slippage of of that. That's perfect. He can start having visions of the future or the past.
00:23:46
Speaker
You know, is it happening now? Is it you know what i mean? Like I can work time into it. And maybe he's watching, you know, when he closes his eyes, there's a clock ticking whenever every so often to say we're running out of time here. And it's ticking backwards or something, like counting down. or something like, yeah, that I like those things like using the stuff that's happened in the game to sort of remind them what's, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a creepy Egyptian clock that like, right. The theme of.
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um And then the last thing is what, what kind of things would you do to make sure like, so one of, one of the problems i have is, is I like to come up with good ideas for characters and we're going to do a whole episode, I'm sure on NPCs and how to make them unique and what, what kind of ideas
Developing Unique Villain Characteristics
00:24:30
Speaker
you'd have.
00:24:30
Speaker
um But in particular to the big bad, like I've got, you know, I've got this, you know, sometimes I want the guy that's just unfa ah unflappable. No, is that the right word? It's like he's on like he unshaken by anything like he's always, you know, like stoic and like It's like when you go into that boss's office and you're like, I hate this guy, but I understand why he's the boss, because he's he's got the authority and he knows how to wield it. You know, that idea or the absolute unhinged, like, you know, the Joker. Right. You've got your you've got your Joker and you've got your you know, you've got your your kingpin to like opposite types of bad guys.
00:25:09
Speaker
like in a way, I'm sure that it really delved into their characters. There's a lot of commonality, but like the Kingpin is always together and he's, he's like, go ahead and face me. And the Joker's just like, okay, well, this is fun, but let's blow something up instead. Right. Like, you know what sorts of, of characteristics do you like to give to your big beds or can you do to make them stand out from the the minor beds?
00:25:31
Speaker
I think there's, there's as many personalities for villains in, in, fiction as as as there are works of fiction okay there are villains uh you can can just take any person any any any personality any set of traits and then just say they do bad things sure fair and it works and it works and so the so the best villain the best villain uh characteristics are the one you invest in the one you're thinking about the one you're feeling the one you're you're like i mean i i i
00:26:04
Speaker
That's fair. There was too big. I'll sit there and talk in the mirror in, in a villain voice. Well, yeah. Okay. So there's, that's, that's what I'm asking for is what tips do you have? Especially ah a long-term villain, a long-term villain where like, they've been doing sort of off screen things that the the party has been discovering. You know, that you go to a village and something horrible has happened because this villain has ordered it. And if you finally get that point where you're face to face with a villain and you know, they're going to want to trash talk them and you know, there's going to be the standoff. You want it to be good.
00:26:35
Speaker
I'll sit there and and talk to myself in the mirror. Yeah. i vote When I'm going for long walks and stuff, I'll sit there and I'll do little bits of dialogue and stuff like that. And I think, It's not so much optimizing the perfect set of traits for a villain.
00:26:50
Speaker
it's It's once you've just decided anything, once you have a start, investing in it. Right. It's like act method acting in a way. It's like getting it in your head. What would this guy say if and when anything else is said? And how does he do it without giving away the, you know, like, you know, how how do i how do i have a character that will outsmart the player characters, but will eventually be outsmarted by them without practice? I guess that's yes and the thing. and the best villain is the one that makes your skin crawl.
00:27:17
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And that that can start anywhere. yeah Any person, at just just any personality personality type, and then they do bad things. Well, and in in a way, like as well, a lot of villains in in in the media, at least in the first, the first, you know, the sequels will change, but the idea that they're a mirror of the hero.
00:27:32
Speaker
So to to create to create a villain that that works for your party is think about the, like you said early on, what are the what are the traits, what are the the list of of of like moral like things that this party takes, like holds a lot of sway, like like the things that that they stand for.
00:27:53
Speaker
And then kind of mirror it for the villain to to not stand against, but the opposite things that they stand for. You know, not necessarily like the obvious like...
00:28:05
Speaker
the the you know the hero is just the same guy as the villain with a different outfit. Like, I mean, more just like like the Lex Luthor to the Superman or the or the you know the Joker to the Batman is a great example because the joke the Batman's like logical and all together and the Joker is just random so that nobody can predict what he's going to do next.
Villains as Mirrors to Heroes
00:28:25
Speaker
um Yeah, I definitely a lot to take out and a lot to to work with. And again, if anyone is you know listening who wants to join our Patreon and you know ask these questions in the Discord, ah you know join us at patreon.com forward slash goodgmspodcast. Don't forget you have to have a Patreon channel. account so when you sign up for your patreon account you're not actually signing up for us so do it's a two-step process uh but if you have a patreon account just join us um and then if you have questions i'll pass them along to james uh if you think he's got better answers than this james or chuck which is fine i brought him on as an expert because i know i've worked with him i played with him and i know he's really good at the big picture stuff that i'm i would love to learn more about because remember practice makes gooder
00:29:12
Speaker
So thanks for joining us. and Thank you. Thank you. And thanks for our listeners and viewers. We'll see you next week.
00:29:25
Speaker
Thank you for watching. If you like or dislike what you heard, let us know.
Episode Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:29:32
Speaker
If you want to suggest an idea for an episode, ask the host a question, or just tell Chuck and James what you really think of them, join our communities at patreon.com forward slash good GM's podcast, or find us on the usual social media platforms.
00:29:54
Speaker
For now, I'm E.E. Morris, and you're all good GMs.
00:30:12
Speaker
We are so grateful to all of our Patreon supporters. At the gooder level, Weird Candy.
00:30:29
Speaker
Yes, E.E. Morris. I put my own money to back our projects because we're all good GMs.