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Allen Eskens
172 Plays5 years ago
Mystery/Thriller Writer ALLEN ESKENS!
Allen Eskens is the bestselling author of The Life We Bury, The Guise of Another, The Heavens May Fall, The Deep Dark Descending, The Shadows We Hide, and Nothing More Dangerous.
He is the recipient of the Barry Award, Minnesota Book Award, Rosebud Award (Left Coast Crime), and Silver Falchion Award and has been a finalist for the Edgar Award, Thriller Award, and Anthony Award. His books have been translated into 26 languages and his novel, The Life We Bury is in development for a feature film.
Allen has a journalism degree from the University of Minnesota and a law degree from Hamline University. After law school, he studied creative writing in the M.F.A. program at Minnesota State University-Mankato, as well as the Loft Literary Center and the Iowa Summer Writer’s Festival. Allen grew up on the hills of central Missouri. He now lives with his wife, Joely, in greater Minnesota where he recently retired after practicing criminal law for 25 years.
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Transcript
Introduction of Podcast and Guests
00:00:01
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host, Dan Vellante. Editor and producer, Peter Bauer. Yeah, Alan. Thank you so much. So much for joining something rather than nothing. This is a podcast I've been doing since July.
00:00:29
Speaker
And as you might have seen with some of the questions, we kind of look into more of the creative components of creating a piece of art. And I am a lover of literature, and I found it extremely curious that I really haven't had any writers on the program yet.
00:00:52
Speaker
Uh, was listening to your, um, to your new, um, book, which is, I'm actually listening to it on audio book, um, nothing more dangerous. And, uh, uh, like all, all your books, it starts out, um, and just, it just pulls you right
Writing Journey and Transition from Law
00:01:06
Speaker
in. So, um, uh, I want to thank you for, um, accepting an invitation to join, uh, to join the podcast and, uh, wanted to welcome you to something rather than nothing. I'm glad to be here. And, um,
00:01:21
Speaker
I think your story is an interesting one, at least from components that I've read about you and about your process. And when I looked at your list of books, I started listening with your first one, which is The Life We Bury. That was followed by The Guys of Another. After that was The Heavens May Fall, The Deep Dark Descending, The Shadows We Hide, and what I had just mentioned, Nothing More Dangerous.
00:01:51
Speaker
I was rather surprised that you were already up to six books. How's that feel to you? It went rather quickly. I didn't step into this thinking I was going to do a book a year, but it's worked out that way. Yeah, I think you've had basically a new volume come out in the fall pretty consistently, is that correct, October and November?
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, and prior to that, part of your story is that you were practicing legal counsel, and fair to say, had always thought, or there was this seed of you looking into and wanting to write creatively, but you started to develop that way towards the end of your legal career. Is that how it worked?
00:02:45
Speaker
Actually, to go back a ways, I was kind of a ne'er-do-well in high school. I started high school as someone who hated school and just wanted to be done. But I got involved in theater my freshman year and just fell in love with it, found something I was passionate about. And it was theater that led me to even consider going to college. And I went to college, got a degree in journalism, and then just for no good reason got a law degree.
00:03:15
Speaker
And that's when I got out of law school and started practicing law as a criminal defense attorney, that I began to miss that creative side that I fell in love with in theater. And so I started looking around when it was 1992. I started looking around for something I could do that would spark that creativity and turn to writing. And so I wrote a short story in 1992, began reading books on writing,
00:03:45
Speaker
craft and technique to try and make that story better. And that blossomed until 2014 when I published my first novel. And so in your professional work, and I think a lot of workers can encounter this, given that you obviously had that kind of creative need and creative side that you wanted to develop more.
00:04:09
Speaker
Did you find yourself within your work trying to bring that out or did you feel that you needed just another outlet?
Love for Theater and Art's Emotional Impact
00:04:20
Speaker
I felt I needed another outlet. The legal profession has some creativity to it, especially when you're a criminal defense attorney, but it is limited. Also, you're given parameters of how creative you can be where
00:04:38
Speaker
As a writer, I can be creative. I can do whatever I want. I have free reign. So it really was a need to be more creative than what I was doing as an attorney. Yeah. And so for you, you had mentioned theater as an influence probably on your creative development. Are there any other art forms that you
00:05:03
Speaker
that you enjoy or participate in that inform your writing? I enjoy most forms of art. I participate in only writing because that's the only thing I have a desire to develop. But again, you know, back when I was in theater, I love going to the place. I love theater. It always impresses me how
00:05:31
Speaker
especially in theater more than movies, how moving it can be, how emotional you can get watching a good play. And thinking about, you know, what's really happening is a playwright writes these words on a page, these actors take these words and they perform this. And what they're doing is they are unlocking the emotion inside the audience. And, and that is actually that, that is something that I think is important to all art
Character Emotions and Moral Storytelling
00:06:00
Speaker
forms.
00:06:00
Speaker
Leo Tolstoy once wrote that the purpose of art is to communicate to others the deepest feelings of humankind. And as a writer, I like that notion that what I'm really doing isn't trying to tell a story, but I'm trying to unlock emotion, trying to evoke something and engage someone in a way that makes them feel something.
00:06:25
Speaker
The two art forms that really do it for me are writing and are reading and theater, but all art forms interest me. Yeah, and I think I mean in talking about your book specifically they they they they Revolve around some main characters and if you know some of the listeners have a listener or read your books There's Joel Talbert character
00:06:55
Speaker
Bodhi Sandin, who is the main character in your newest novel, Max Rupert and Lila Nash. For those who have listened or read your books, they'll have more of a connection to these characters. But one of the things I found in having read each of your works is that they really evoke a lot of emotion and a lot of where you place yourself in the mind of these characters.
00:07:24
Speaker
And I found this at first to be curious for me because some of the situations that are within the typical mystery or thriller genre seem kind of not of the norm. And that drives the drama. But when you mention that quote by Tolstoy in speaking about plays,
00:07:47
Speaker
Your characters really do bring that up and I've actually felt that really deeply as your characters struggle with kind of like moral and ethical questions about how to act and whether they're good, whether they're bad people. So the stories, they have this feeling that they come out in your work of really a story that needs to be told although they're creative.
Unique Writing Process and Creative Freedom
00:08:18
Speaker
So that leads to, why do you create, I mean, did some of the forms of these characters and the situations that they faced, did it really just kind of well up as a natural process for you? Like, as far as your creative process, what really launched you into having to write these stories and creating these characters? Okay. Well, to begin with, I do not write
00:08:46
Speaker
a series. Most mystery writers write a mystery series with one protagonist going from book to book. I don't do that for a couple of reasons. Number one, my first protagonist was a college student and I didn't want to have him tripping over dead bodies and solving crimes. So what I did was I wrote about the community of people I created in the life of Barry. So the life of Barry, my debut novel has Joe Talbert, a college student as a protagonist. The next three books,
00:09:17
Speaker
They are, well, they're a three-book story arc for Max Rupert. He's not the sole protagonist until the third book of the series of the arc, but it shows him going from being this man who follows the rules and is a boy scout to questioning that in the heavens may fall to facing his darkest nature in the deep art descending. And so I like writing character arcs, whether that happens in a single book or in a
00:09:46
Speaker
you know, three books or more. I like that journey that the character takes and the crucible that changes the protagonist from seeing himself, herself, the world a certain way at the beginning of the novel and seeing themselves differently at the end. So because I love that arc, I am focused on changing the character. And to change the character in a mystery novel, you're not going to change the character by having really good twists and turns.
00:10:15
Speaker
It's important to have that. I outlined that to the nth degree to make sure that, that I have a really solid mystery that is compelling and twisty and interesting. And when I'm finished with that, I look at it and say, now I could write this novel and it will be a mystery novel and that would be it. But I start another outline and this is the personal character, the character drive, the character plot.
00:10:41
Speaker
What is it that this character is going to go through over the course of this novel? And it's got to be a personal story. And so I read a whole second plot line that focuses on deeper themes, deeper relationships, and this is what changes the protagonist over the course of the novel. And I think it's that second outline that has been the key to my success. I see that external plot solving the mystery as being the vehicle that moves the story forward, but
00:11:10
Speaker
It's the character relationships that bring readers in deeper into the story and make them feel the emotion to make them think. Um, and I, I, that part of that process has worked out very well for me. And so the, the, the books you have start to, and I, I appreciate the way you described that and talk about, um, you know, your deliberate approach, um, in interacting with these characters and telling these stories.
00:11:43
Speaker
Do you feel any external pressure from people who enjoy these characters that maybe want to want you to keep writing about these characters? Do you have any tension as far as if you wanted to break off as a writer to create something new? As you interact with your fans and people who love these characters, do you feel any tension in that regard?
00:12:09
Speaker
I don't. I'm in a very good place as a writer in that because I write about a community, I don't have to have my stories conform to a specific narrative voice or narrative style. So if I wrote about a single protagonist, I think my readers would want to see that same story form in each novel. But because I write about a community, I can switch it up.
00:12:36
Speaker
I have written in first person. I've written in third person. I've had single protagonists. I've had multiple protagonists. I've gone back and forth in time. I've written about the present day. Nothing more dangerous. It takes place in the past. It's actually prequel. I have a great deal of freedom to write differently using different protagonists as I go forward. Also, I started this journey with the belief that you should, as Tony Morrison said, write the book you want to read.
00:13:06
Speaker
And I always have, I've always written the book that I would like to read and I've never felt pressure to write a certain type of book or use a certain protagonist. Um, I have two books in my head. One I'm writing the next, the other one I'm outlining that involved these characters going forward.
Weather as an Antagonistic Force in Novels
00:13:25
Speaker
But I have a third book in my head that has nothing to do with any of this stuff. I will write that book someday because I like writing. Um, if it doesn't get published, it doesn't get published, but I'm going to write it because that's what I enjoy doing.
00:13:36
Speaker
So I've been very lucky in that I have never felt any pressure to write a certain way. I just sit down and write what I think interests me. And so far that's translated to a readership. There's a character we haven't talked about, but I have lived in
00:14:01
Speaker
the midwest and uh... wisconsin and uh... a lot of your uh... the settings are rather cold uh... what's what's what's the role of uh... you know that kind of midwest winter uh... minnesota uh... you know the the the woods but also the city uh... in the winter uh...
00:14:27
Speaker
How do you think how do you I mean, is it deliberate that you bring that out? Because I feel it is a character. I mentioned it as a character. I'm not sure if you have in any spots, but it feels like an entity you have to deal with. And I really think it informs your novels. You want to mention a little bit about the role of Minnesota in the winter. Yeah. And from a foundational standpoint, when I sat down to try and learn the craft of writing,
00:14:56
Speaker
The first thing I had read was Joseph Campbell's A Hero with a Thousand Faces because I want to understand the very fundamentals of storytelling. And so as I go forward and I'm writing, I will use weather as a character. For example, in The Life We Bury, there's a scene where my protagonist, Joe, is running away into the woods and it's right at the beginning of a snowstorm. Now, the blizzard that comes
00:15:26
Speaker
is what's called a threshold guardian. A threshold guardian is a antagonist that the hero has to overcome before he can continue his journey to confront the main antagonist. And oftentimes when the hero overcomes the threshold guardian, the threshold guardian becomes an ally to the protagonist. So Joe runs into the woods, the blizzard is just starting
00:15:54
Speaker
And he has to fight through this blizzard and survive it. And when he does, the blizzard then becomes an ally by hiding him in the woods from the guy he's running from. So he's a threshold guardian. In the deep dark descending, the weather, the cold is a serious antagonist. I mean, that is one of the antagonistic forces that Max has to battle to have his journey.
00:16:24
Speaker
Uh, so yeah, when I'm, when I'm writing, I will often use weather as an antagonistic force or like I said, threshold guardian, um, force because, uh, it's here.
Art's Purpose and Emotional Resonance
00:16:37
Speaker
I mean, living in Minnesota, you understand how, how deathly important it is to understand the winters and the cold and the weather. Um, you know, you go out driving at the wrong time and they can be a life or death decision. So yeah, I, uh, I love using
00:16:54
Speaker
the weather when i can i'd like the um... and i really thank you for that i mean i really appreciate the description on the connection of threshold guardian guardian cuz you know when i first ask that question i just you know that there's there's this kind of blunt aspect of the weather makes you feel you know that it's it feels almost always as the antagonist right uh... but of course in um... uh... in in your work that's the fact that it can cover and it can hide uh...
00:17:24
Speaker
that can help or hinder and I think bringing in that dynamic is really helpful actually for understanding its role in your work. As I mentioned, I've read and listened to each of your books and I look forward to every time one comes out.
00:17:51
Speaker
incredible works of art, and some of your references and descriptions, say Tolstoy and Campbell, I mean, I think there's kind of stronger universal elements to what you're doing. So I view these, your works as pieces of literary art. For you, in interacting with the question of art is, what is art to you?
Reading and Themes from 'Nothing More Dangerous'
00:18:24
Speaker
I will go back to Tolstoy. I want to make people feel something, whether it's enjoyment, just because they found the twists and turns of a novel interesting. That's fine, but what I'd prefer to do is get down deeper. When I have someone write me an email saying, I just finished your novel, there are still tears on my cheeks, that is the most heartwarming message I can receive because
00:18:54
Speaker
I know I've touched somebody, that I make them feel emotion. And really, that's why I'm a writer. That's really what I want to do, is I want to make people think and feel things. So when I go to the same museum and there's a photographer that's on display, sometimes you look at the pictures and they're just pictures. Other times, you look at a picture and you can feel something. You see something deeper and there's
00:19:23
Speaker
You can't always describe it, but there's an emotive feeling inside of you that something stirred by this picture. That's art. You know, when, when I, when I look at, um, paintings, um, if it's a bowl of fruit, probably doesn't do much for me, but if it's, if it's something that makes me feel something that's important. So, and again, art is, I believe in the eye of the beholder, if,
00:19:50
Speaker
you like comic books and that's what makes you feel the graphic novels that that's what makes you feel that's your art uh... as long as it does something inside view that that moves you that's that's what i think the whole term artist for very much agree with the whole story i wanted to um... i'd said sent sent you a message alan uh... about uh... whether you could read a passage which you've been volunteered uh...
00:20:20
Speaker
To do I was wondering if you could um give the listeners a little bit of a set up to that passage and And and and to perform that that that part for us if you could sure This passage happens about two-thirds of the way through nothing more dangerous The protagonist in nothing more dangerous is Bodhi Sandin He is 15 years old The the novel takes place back in 1976
00:20:51
Speaker
And it's a story that has a lot of different moving parts to it. But the one moving part that really compelled me to want to write this novel is the journey that Bode will take to understand his own subconscious prejudices. So he starts the novel out by saying very clearly that he has no prejudices. And he firmly believes that. He really believes he has no prejudice whatsoever, yet he will say things throughout the novel where the reader knows
00:21:22
Speaker
that this kid has subconscious prejudices. And so in this scene, Bodhi has befriended a young man named Thomas, who is black. And before this scene takes place, Thomas and Bodhi were walking down a dirt road and this pickup truck comes flying up out of the dust. As it drives past them, a man reaches out with a broomstick and swings at them and tries to hit them and actually hits Bodhi. And so Bodhi has a neighbor named Hope Gardner,
00:21:51
Speaker
And Hulk Gardner is the mentor in the story. He's an older man. He's a man with a dark past that Bodhi comes to understand over the course of the summer. But in this scene, he just told Hulk about this attack. And in response, Hulk has told Bodhi the story of Emmett Till. And this picks up the conversation after that story.
00:22:19
Speaker
Three days later, they found the boy's body in a river with a cotton gin fan tied around his neck. Jesus. And all because they didn't like the way he talked to a white woman. But that was a long time ago before he was even born. They put a stop to all that because they passed those civil rights laws. Bodhi, the men who beat and murdered those folks for all those years. You think they simply disappeared because someone passed the law? Quite sadness wrapped around hoax words as he spoke.
00:22:50
Speaker
as though he held himself responsible for the sins of people who came before him. Do you think those folks just figured out they'd been wrong and went home? No, but things are different now, ain't they? I wish to God they were, but that stuff still happens. Maybe not in the same way it happened to Emmett Till, but it's out there. Always will be. Not always. People change. People change if they want to, but the sad truth is
00:23:19
Speaker
Humans are hardwired to be prejudiced. It's passed down from ancestors who were just trying to figure out what to fear and what to hunt. We learn to separate things into good and bad, and that particular human frailty is alive and well in every one of us. It's not a matter of if we have prejudices. We do. It's a matter of understanding those instincts and fighting against them. Oh, pulled out his pipe and worked through the ritual of packing tobacco into it.
00:23:47
Speaker
I wanted to argue against what he'd said, but frankly, his story about Emmett Till scared the crap out of me, and I began to contemplate this short walk between getting hit with a broom handle and getting beat to death with it. After he lit his pipe, he took a deep draw off the pipe and let the smoke roll out between his lips. Once it cleared away, he said, you'll never change what a person thinks in their head or what they feel in their heart by passing a law. If a man doesn't want to look at who he is deep down,
00:24:16
Speaker
He's not going to much care what the law says about it. And that's the end of the passage. Thank you. What was it like for you to go back in time with your most recent novel and the change in location and kind of the delve into the
00:24:47
Speaker
the heart of of of Bodhi, I mean Is it was was it a difficult process? To unravel, you know what's in this what's in his heart and how he's feeling or what you know What might be subconscious unconscious prejudices? How was that process? I'm writing that it was both difficult and easy I grew up in Missouri in the 1970s. So Bodhi is really based on who I was and
00:25:16
Speaker
and that society in the 1970s. And readers of my other books will know that in the current day, Bodhi Sandin grows up to be a law professor. So he's a law professor in the life of Barry and in the heavens may fall. And Bodhi has always been kind of my alter ego. He is kind of who I was at 15. He is kind of who I became after law school. So it was easy to go back and get inside
00:25:46
Speaker
the shoes of that character because I was that character. There's a lot of racial slurs and comments in this novel, and every one of them is one that I either heard or possibly said when I was in my youth. And so in that way, it was easy to understand who Bodhi was. The hard part was getting it on the page. I started writing about Bodhi in 1992. So that short story that I began writing
00:26:16
Speaker
when I first got out of law school. That was nothing more dangerous. That was the story of Bodhi Sandin. So I actually wrote that youth version of Bodhi before I made him a law professor in my debut novel. But it took me 20 years of studying and practicing and working to try and get this story where I wanted it to be, and it wasn't ready after 20 years. So I set it aside, wrote the life for Barry, wrote
00:26:45
Speaker
the three-book arc for Max, wrote the sequel to The Life of Barry, and then finally came back and rewrote Nothing More Dangerous. And after writing those other five novels, I had grown as a writer in terms of my understanding of what was missing in that first manuscript. And so when I went back to rewrite it, I outlined it from beginning to end as if I'd never written a previous draft of it, and I wrote it
00:27:11
Speaker
from beginning to end, only looking at the old manuscript on occasion when I knew that there was a specific paragraph or a description that I liked from the old manuscript. I would pull that forward, but I wrote basically the whole thing from scratch. Maybe 15% of the original manuscript made it into the final piece. So it took 27 years to get this book to a place where I knew it was ready to go.
00:27:36
Speaker
And this is literally the book I became a writer to write. This is the story that I became a writer to tell. So that part was difficult, but I'm very pleased with how it turned out.
Daydreaming to Tangible Stories
00:27:45
Speaker
Yeah, congratulations, Alan. I mean, it is it is quite incredible. And I think I can connect to, you know,
00:27:54
Speaker
It's just such a long time I've read some bits and pieces about how long that story was there and for you know to to accomplish You know to accomplish this must be a great feeling and I'm sure is a long time in coming For you know for it to to be realized in the way that it is it was Yeah, I'm sure I don't Last week was released last Tuesday. Is that correct?
00:28:22
Speaker
Tuesday the 12th. So there's a big question as part of the show. And the question I ask is, why is there something rather than nothing? And I always pose it in two ways. One is that, as an artist, as a creator, why is there something rather than nothing as far as what you create, or when does something
00:28:52
Speaker
When does you know nothing becomes something as far as its genesis, but the question is For you Alan is why is there something rather than nothing? Yeah, I saw that in your email and I gotta confess I still don't quite understand the question Why is there something rather than nothing in terms of my creating? As far as when I speak with creators There's there's this usual
00:29:22
Speaker
piece where in the act of creating it becomes something, you know, like it was nothing or it was an idea, it wasn't manifest before. But you know, like it's essentially at what point do you feel that your ideas and your efforts, you know, have become something for you as a creator?
Learning and Improving Writing Craft
00:29:44
Speaker
Okay. Like you, I listened to most of my books, as opposed to reading them, I've never been
00:29:51
Speaker
a good reader. So I don't come to the world of writing novels as someone who has read a lot of novels. What I come to this from is a world of daydreaming. I have always been a huge daydreamer. That was my favorite part of school. And so when I decided to write novels, it wasn't so much, you know, let's try something fun, write a novel. It was more
00:30:18
Speaker
I'm always thinking about stories. I'm always thinking about, you know, I'm creating stories in my head constantly. Let's write one down just for the fun of it. And really that's how it all started was I just wanted to write something down that was in my head. And it was the story of this young boy. And it evolved over that first two decades. But the nature of it was I just wanted to take this daydream and try and put it on paper in a way
00:30:49
Speaker
that communicated these daydreams I was having. And then the more I learned about the art and the craft of writing, the more I became enamored with that process. And so that's how my nothing became something. It just goes from my daydreams to let's see if I can communicate that daydream. Yeah.
00:31:14
Speaker
Read or seen a short video you talking about that that daydream component, of course, which is kind of the creativity or the ideas or the imagination that you felt. Did you reach a threshold where you really just became comfortable with the fact that those daydreams were legitimate? I mean, you know, as a student, when you're younger, it's like, oh, you know, you're staring out the window, you're staring up in the clouds, you're dreaming.
00:31:41
Speaker
When did you feel really comfortable saying, hey, those daydreams are my things and I'm going to create from them? When did that happen? It was an evolution that started when, like I said, when I got out of law school and started studying writing and started learning the depth of the craft. I mean, the craft of writing is really something that I didn't expect. I expected writing was, here's how you tell a good story.
00:32:10
Speaker
I understood that pacing was going to be an issue, how to do dialogue, those mechanical things. But then there was a whole different level, a layer of the psychological impact of how you write. When I have someone, like I said, email me saying that they were crying, they're crying because I know if I put these words in a certain way, it's going to have an impact.
00:32:39
Speaker
That became the joy of writing, is constantly understanding more and more about how to do that. To this day, I listen to podcasts on writing technique and screenwriting more now than before. And every time I listen to one, there's always a new tidbit. It's like, oh, that's brilliant. I can add that to my quiver of craft and ideas.
Connecting with Readers and Future Projects
00:33:02
Speaker
There's a joy to it now. It's not just about me communicating, here's a time I fell out of a tree.
00:33:10
Speaker
But making that mean something more than just me falling out of a tree. Yeah, Alan, as part of this towards the end of the podcast, one of the things I like to extend to my guests is I think, as I mentioned, I think your books are fantastic and they really pull you in.
00:33:39
Speaker
And I wanna share that, part of this is sharing kind of your thoughts on the process and your answers to these questions. But if folks listen and wanna connect more to what you do and what you write, what's their best avenues to just encounter your work? Well, of course they can find my books just about every bookstore and library in the country, or you can order them online. I always strongly,
00:34:09
Speaker
recommend people to to avail themselves of their local bookstores if they have one. Local bookstores are a treasure and if you have one in your community, support it. Beyond that, I have a web page, alanescans.com. I do have a blog there, but I honestly am not very good at writing on it. I haven't put stuff on it for a couple of years now. But there's some videos on there and interviews that I've done.
00:34:38
Speaker
But I'm on Twitter and I got an author Facebook page and I'm new to Instagram, but I'm on Instagram. So I always post little things that are new in those social media outlets as well. Alan, it's been a great pleasure chatting with you and I want to personally thank you for all the hard work that I know you put in
00:35:06
Speaker
in creating these books. They're eminently enjoyable and I think maybe I almost got into this automatic thing in the fall when it starts to get a little bit chillier to be like, I think there should be a new Eskins novel coming out and I just want to let you know that I really appreciate everything you do. And for also taking the time
00:35:30
Speaker
to join the podcast here. It's been a great pleasure to talk to you and also to learn about your process and about some of the impacts on your life that have led you to write and to create art. So again, I want to extend a deep thanks to you, Alan. Well, I want to thank you for having me on. And I do want to give a heads up.
00:35:58
Speaker
I've done a book a year, but in 2020, I will not have a book out. My next one will be on 2021. I've taken some time off to do some screenplay work. And that put me behind my year book a year schedule. Yeah, that'll that'll that'll I mean, you deserve to do that. It's also good to know. So to calibrate calibrate expectations.
00:36:22
Speaker
Again, thank you so much, Alan Eskins, author and writer, and thanks for joining something rather than nothing podcast. Thank you for having me, Ken. Take care, Alan. You are listening to something rather than nothing.