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TSW* S1E8 - Patrick Murphy - University of Alabama at Birmingham
37 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of "This Should Work", host Jay Margalus sits down with Dr. Patrick Murphy, a distinguished figure in entrepreneurship education and research. As the Goodrich Chair of the J. Frank Barefield Jr. Entrepreneurship Program at UAB, Dr. Murphy shares insights from his transition from DePaul University and his unique approach to entrepreneurship education.
The conversation delves into Murphy's influential work in social entrepreneurship, exploring how this field has evolved since his highly-cited paper on social entrepreneurial discovery. Drawing from his international experience, including time spent in Beijing, Murphy offers a global perspective on entrepreneurship.
Throughout the episode, Murphy addresses critical issues in entrepreneurship, including:
- Building sustainable entreprepenruship programs and businesses
- Common pitfalls for new entrepreneurs and how to avoid them
- The importance of mentorship and building strong company cultures
- The future of entrepreneurship education and the role of technology
Murphy also shares his insights on the evolving entrepreneurial ecosystem and highlights crucial areas for future research in the field. This wide-ranging conversation offers valuable takeaways for aspiring entrepreneurs, seasoned business owners, and anyone interested in the cutting edge of entrepreneurship theory and practice.
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Transcript
Introduction and Background of Patrick Murphy
00:00:01
margalus
Okay, so i am I'm here with Patrick Murphy, the Goodrich Chair and Head of the J. Frank Barefield Jr. Entrepreneurship Program at UAB.
00:00:11
margalus
Patrick, I know you from DePaul University before that, where we both worked, also my alma mater, and or one of my alma maters. And Patrick has also given me very generously a lot of
00:00:20
Patrick
this
00:00:23
margalus
um you know advice is as we've talked briefly over social media and and phone as I've kind of transitioned my way into
Teaching Philosophy and Non-Traditional Methods
00:00:30
margalus
into entrepreneurship here at W and L.
00:00:30
Patrick
Thank you very much.
00:00:33
margalus
But we're here to talk about Patrick, not about me, and and to hear for all of his great advice. um so So Patrick, you're running an entrepreneurship program at at UAB for the last four or five years.
00:00:45
margalus
You're doing all this great stuff. You've got a lot of great papers out there. What did I miss? What else what what other titles? but Horse owner, what other titles have I missed that that people should know about?
00:00:57
Patrick
I'm trying to make the titles fewer. um I'm trying to simplify and streamline a lot of things. it was um It was quite a grind the first four or five years building the program. And we're we're at a stage now where I'm trying to offload a bunch of stuff. So I'm i'm a chair and professor. um I've dabbled in entrepreneurship, which we can talk about if you want. But um that's about it. I don't want to be a dean. I don't want to run a small college or anything like that. I'm very happy as an endowed chair um in entrepreneurship and running the program. And it's been quite an adventure and I can talk about any aspect that you'd that you'd like.
Engagement through Diverse Talents and Methods
00:01:36
margalus
Well, I've got all sorts of aspects that we can talk about, but I think the first one, and I'm thinking of a video that I watched where you were, what was it? Your student was judo kicking or karate chopping. So there was some kind of wood in a classroom. And this is not your primary role, I would assume. at UAB is facilitating martial arts. To talk a bit a little bit about that and I'd love to hear like your philosophy towards towards your program and your classes and what your what your mission and goals are with how how you operate at UAB.
00:02:08
Patrick
I view it through a pretty strong generational lens. The the board breaking was something that we did. what It was related to confidence, maybe comfort zone things. it was I think that was in our social enterprise class, but we have a module in there where we talk about just breaking through and taking bold action. And we happened to have a... he He's a black belt. he's he he He trains. I think he actually has a school or a program now. He graduated from our program, but he was an expert in all of that. So we were doing a session and he facilitated it. But yeah, we were breaking boards in the in the class and that's why we did that. and
00:02:51
Patrick
it To me, any any chance we get to draw from the unique talent that's in the room, like in this case, ah third degree black belt, but it but it could be a magician or it could be a a baker or a cook or somebody who makes clothes or whatever or whatnot. We try really hard to draw from what's in the room because, well, the concepts we teach are applicable to many different domains. And so we can use third degree Taekwondo to talk about confidence, but we can also use something like statistical operations and probability, or we can use magic, or we can use other types of things based on who's in the room. So that that's what you saw there. And it is a philosophy of education for for me. In our program, we don't use textbooks and we don't administer traditional exams.
00:03:47
Patrick
We have other gradable elements, and the content comes directly out of the research journals, and it's the professor's job to make that content intelligible to the audience, the students. ah But because it's research and theories and frameworks, you can you can accommodate, you can appropriate you can tailor that material to relate really well to who's in the room if you take time to really get to know them. And it does take time to get to know them. so rather than making the content intelligible in the textbook that they read, and it's one size fits all, we do it in a little bit more dynamic way where we take frameworks and we get to know who's in the room, and then we use their language and their preferences to the degree that we can. So that theme permeates pretty much everything that we do here curricularly. um And we've gotten a lot of traction there, and it's a different way to run a program, and we we can dig into that if you want, but that if that's my philosophy as much as anything.
Global Thinking and Local Application in Education
00:04:44
margalus
I'd love to dig into that. It reminds me of kind of, there's the the educational theory of, and I may have mentioned this in previous episodes of zone of proximal development, where there's like three circles. You've got the inner circle, what you're comfortable with, the outer, the the circle right outside of that, which is what you can do with mentorship or with help. And then the circle outside of that, which is like, you're not gonna, there's no mentor who's gonna teach me Latin in a day, you know, there's gonna need to be some studying or something like that.
00:05:11
margalus
um I really like that you're meeting the students where they're at and then that brings them out into kind of these areas of curiosity. um I'm thinking back to you know my days at DePaul where we had um we had somebody touring our space from England. It was one of the the the big universities over there and she asked me,
00:05:33
margalus
what how do you How do you get your students to commercialize their ideas? I was giving her a tour of one of the labs that I ran there and I said, I don't care if they're commercializing things. I just want them to be doing what's what they're interested in and then maybe they will get to commercialization or maybe they they won't. It sounds like there's something there. like How do you balance that?
00:05:53
margalus
the the creative interests of your students and what they're enthusiastic about, and and how do you use that to bring them into kind of that next outside place? What are what are some tech, I'm not even thinking, maybe maybe it's tactical, maybe there are like tactical things that you do, but it sounds like you're thinking more like a higher level about this as well.
00:06:15
Patrick
We believe deeply in this principle of think global act local or think globally act locally. So the thinking should draw widely um the the rings and the or the realms or the domains that you just talked about. Thinking should be unbounded in terms of even disciplinary boundaries, especially in entrepreneurship. We can draw a lot from philosophy or the sciences and even English or music, you you name it, the thinking can go just that far. And there are lessons and concepts from far-flung domains that we can bring into the lessons. um For example, we we read a Portuguese poem in the entrepreneurial mindset class and I bring in a native speaker of Portuguese
00:07:07
Patrick
Um, actually she just walked through the room earlier. or She was in that group. She was facilitating that tour that, um, you saw before we started the show. Um, so we do that. And then I, I lived, as you know, I lived in China in the nineties and I can speak the Mandarin Chinese language. And so we will, we have a lecture that deals only in Chinese characters and it's not, and these are the best ways to convey the particular lessons that we're dealing with. Um,
00:07:38
Patrick
and And that's why we use those particular modes. But the thinking can be very, very broad and you can bring in a lot of different concepts and logics and approaches. But but the challenge is you have to turn it into local action. and And to me, that means it has to be made intelligible in a way that's direct and inspiring to the particular individuals in the room. So what that means is if there were ever a reason why I shouldn't use one of those examples I just talked about, I wouldn't do it. I'd find another way. I mean, they usually always apply and they work, but we we take it very seriously. The think global part is important, but the act local part is just as important. If you can't boil down these um very open, creative,
00:08:29
Patrick
ideas into something that makes local sense in terms of local currency and local meaning, then you got to draw from different sources. So I think that deals with, and it helps us navigate the the context that you just described. um So a textbook won't work, a traditional exam won it won't work, because the gradable element may need to change dramatically based on who's in the room, but the underlying concept um is is always the same. We we we we just draw from different ah domains, different disciplines to get the same concept across if someone in the room would be maybe well versed in music or they knew something about building furniture. um And then, yeah, so we we kind of navigate it that way. If you try to act globally, and by that I mean
00:09:22
Patrick
you you You bring in any example and you don't really care if it makes local sense or if you're a business, if you just take money from any anybody and you don't recognize that not all money is the same. When you start that global, you squeeze out the minority elements. You you gentrify communities and the people who aren't well-resourced, they tend to get left behind if you start acting in that way and in classrooms today.
00:09:46
Patrick
There's a lot of, I guess I'm metaphorically speaking at this point, but there's a lot of learners who fall into that category and we want to be as inclusive as we can without watering down the hard hitting nature of authentic content.
00:10:01
margalus
So man, so this is a, it seems to me like this is a much harder way to teach than traditional, not just in academia, but just K-12, than traditional, to you've got slides, you have books, you have kind of a linear progression of content where you're scaffolding on top of it. And you know, you mentioned metaphor, and as you were talking about your process of teaching,
00:10:26
margalus
It seemed like metaphor was involved a lot too. Metaphor is really useful because it takes something abstract and then people can kind of make it their own because it's abstract and they can make their own meaning out of that metaphor. And from that, they can then move into kind of that that local that local action.
00:10:45
margalus
right um but But that seems like such a much more difficult way to teach when you have to meet students
00:10:46
Patrick
That's right.
00:10:52
margalus
where they're at. And it's like it seems like playing like you're playing jazz where there's you're you're playing around the notes, you know, and and you've got something that you want to get to. But then also there's there's this wide range where you can play on your own and you have to you have to do it like you're you're performing every time you're in the classroom. How do you how do you sustain that? How do you and and and keep students engaged with that kind of ah of a process that's got to be intense?
00:11:23
Patrick
Yeah, my approach is not plug and play for sure. I don't reuse notes. There aren't a lot of notes. If you were to look at a the visuals that we use in the class, it is one large Prezi canvas, but it's almost all visuals. It's all like conceptual frameworks and diagrams and graphic depictions of of meaning.
00:11:48
Patrick
that you can talk about in a bunch of different ways to connect with the people who are in the class. But you're right. To get to know them, we do take it takes about two weeks to really build a little sense of community. um And you know it'd be better if we could take longer, but we have a 14 week semester and we we have to get to all the content. So it is a lot more work and you you don't like have notes that you use and reuse. Everything is reinvented in terms of what you talk about and so forth. But the content is the same, which which is which is good. um It's probably easier for me now that I've been doing this for 24 years than it was in the early days. I do remember notes and
00:12:39
Patrick
scripted and more formal materials that I would draw from every single time. But over time, and this may have been as I got better at getting no though diverse individuals in the room, I would find that I would need to change the way I talked about concepts, especially in entrepreneurship, where we're talking about like uncertainty or being different or unique and not average and managing growth and failing and many very culturally laden things that can be interpreted differently by different people. There's no script, I don't think, to teaching that. there's There's a concept and you just know it well enough to talk about it to whomever you meet. And based on who they are, you'll talk about it in a slightly different way.
00:13:30
Patrick
Like a grandparent knows their grandchildren really well. You don't need to prepare to tell somebody about your grandchild if you know them and love them really, really well. um It'll just, based on who you're talking to, the type of examples you share and the way you explain that grandchild is going to be a little bit different so you can meet the person where they are. I think of the content as very much like that. I do believe it's a different way of teaching.
00:13:57
Patrick
I am a believer in the need to refresh higher education. Like I said, it is generational, in my opinion, the way folks learn now because of how they use and consume information and information technology.
00:14:13
margalus
Yeah.
00:14:14
Patrick
I believe it must evolve in order to be effective. So we're trying really hard to do that. It's led me to teaching in this way.
00:14:21
margalus
And you're I think you're being, if I could say, too humble. And and you you mentioned 24 years you've been teaching and it's gotten easier over time. And there are, it seems to me, I'm sure there are multiple, but I'm thinking of two paths right now.
00:14:35
margalus
And the one easy path is the one I'm thinking of where you're 24, 30 years in, and you're still using the same slides you were 20 years ago. And so it's easy because you're just doing, it's it's just the same thing and And then there's the other easy where you learn how to work. It's almost like being a stand-up comedian or doing some other performance where you just feel more comfortable with it. But it's still it's still got to be a challenge. And you you mentioned something like a grandparent. And that rung with me because I i do. i feel
00:15:10
margalus
Teaching is a passion to me. i i do know I try to get to know and love my students and understand them so that I can teach them better. But that's not easy either because you're developing these bonds and connections and you mentioned developing community. And that's not that that's not that's not something everybody's thinking about.
Building Community and Encouraging Boldness
00:15:28
margalus
How do you develop community within the classroom? How do you know and love your students?
00:15:32
margalus
what What do you do to develop that kind of community, those kinds of systems, those kinds of um
00:15:43
margalus
I'm using my hands right now because this means something to me that I don't know what words can, you know, like this holistic you know feeling within your classroom. What what are you doing? You're martial arts, you're meeting students where they're at, but then you've got to connect them all to each other too, right? Because it's not just about their interests, it's about how their interests kind of weave into each other. how ah what What are you doing there?
00:16:06
Patrick
That's right, yeah. And um the the two paths that you mentioned, I think the first one where you use and reuse content is it makes it easier earlier, but it'll make it harder later because that content will become stale and you'll you'll stop connecting at the level that you did.
00:16:20
margalus
Yes.
00:16:24
Patrick
um And you kind of evolve into irrelevance or your class does. um the The second path may be a little bit harder in the beginning, but it If you really get good at building community and bringing people together, um it you get more traction over time and you get better at it later.
00:16:43
Patrick
because you know Believe it or not, the theories don't change all that much. like A good theory will last for a long time. um It's the examples and the language that you use to talk about that theory that has a shelf life a shorter shelf life.
00:16:58
margalus
Thanks.
00:16:59
Patrick
um If you know a theory very deeply, you know it tends to keep showing up as the world of business evolves eventually it'll become irrelevant, but a good theory sticks around for 20 or 30 years um in the business world. if It's a really good theory. So we, you know, just in terms of um how I deliver the content, I think longer term, it's ah it's a much better way to do it. And then building community around the content and in the classroom, what I'm doing there,
00:17:29
Patrick
um theres there's There's a lot of introductions. There's a lot of different ways to do the introductions. what What we do pretty early on in the entrepreneurship program is exactly what we want them to do when they network later on in their careers, and that is to introduce themselves to others in a way that makes them memorable.
00:17:53
Patrick
And the way to make one yourself memorable to another person is to share something unique about yourself with that other person. So they don't meet anyone else that has that same unique thing, whatever it may be.
00:18:01
margalus
Yeah.
00:18:07
Patrick
And therefore you don't get confused with anybody else. People will remember you far longer if if they know something unique about you, like a unique hobby or a unique experience that you had that maybe nobody else had.
00:18:22
Patrick
so There's an early exercise that we do where we we do introductions in the room um along those lines. And yeah there's ah is these ah it's a teachable moment already, because not only is that what I want them to do later um when they network, because you know you want people to remember you. So when they go on to meet others, and you're not there, and you need to meet the person they just ran into because something that person said to them.
00:18:47
Patrick
triggers a memory of you and they only remember you because you're unique, then you get an unexpected introduction and it's you know entrepreneurship runs in large part in those types of connections. But there's other teachable aspects of it too. For example, making yourself vulnerable, which I believe is required for intelligent, bold risk taking. It's a way to incur risk and ah and you have to incur risk in order to get a reward in my opinion. You don't, you don't get reward without taking risk. And you know, we want students and learners to come out of our program being intrigued by opportunities to make themselves vulnerable or to take a risk or to kind of put themselves out there and maybe look goofy for a moment. It's okay because nine times out of 10, you'll be wrong and you might look a little bit foolish, but if you build this into your life and into your decision-making one time out of 10,
00:19:47
Patrick
it'll hit and there'll be an unexpected hit that's good and successful and the positive value generated from that one hit will outweigh the negative value generated from the nine misses and the nine misses kind of fall away by the wayside and the one hit is what you remember and what really makes up for everything. But if you don't do the nine, I believe you don't often, you don't usually get to the one. So making yourself vulnerable and showing the world, or in this case, in our class, showing the community, which in the world of the classroom, I often refer to them the universe of talent that's in the room. It's it's like a rich, diverse collection of,
00:20:33
Patrick
human capital and talent. I think of it as like ah like a universe, but just contributing to it, making yourself unique. So we do that and it's it's not judgmental. That's another teachable aspect here. you you You want to meet the people who are different from you. You want people who support different agenda or different political candidates or different values. You want that, even if you don't agree with them,
00:21:00
Patrick
The mature entrepreneurial mind is, you know, it doesn't mean I have to work with you, but it it it also doesn't mean I have to disrespect you if I learn what you're like and what you're into. um So we we spend a lot of time talking about that. So at the end of it, one should feel as comfortable as they might at a dinner table with a bunch of family or friends where they can just make a joke or weigh in or share something unfiltered.
00:21:25
Patrick
And then that is how we build community. So once you've established that in ah in a room of learners, it's almost hierarchical in terms of the the values hierarchy. once Once you have a strong sense of community, then the next level right above it would be esteem or individual action. You're much more likely to make a bold individual move if you feel like you're part of something larger than yourself, um whether it's your family or your organization or your community or your culture.
00:21:53
Patrick
It's like an agency theory perspective where you're you you have that sense and you kind of know people or others have your back, so to speak. If it doesn't work, you can kind of fall back on that. People won't act very boldly if they don't feel like they're part of some kind of community. that That's really why we do it and we want the individuals to learn how to build community. They're learning how to do this now and they're experiencing it, but when they go out and build organizations in the future and teams,
00:22:22
Patrick
I want them to do what I did with them in order to um create this kind of community that supports itself and shares knowledge and opportunities within itself um for the good of the community and for the good of the members of the community.
00:22:40
margalus
One of the things that I like to talk with my students about is, I'm going to say truth in a second here, but I don't mean capital T truth. Capital T truth, I think only accessible via metaphor and you can only see it out of the corner of your eye almost, right? Lowercase T truth, like the finding meaning.
00:23:02
margalus
um I tell my students can only be found in tension when there's tension the tension is where and by tension I don't mean negative tension I mean differences and differences of opinion or interests or whatever they are that when when you find things in tension when they're stretched thin, that's when you can see through them almost and see into something something else. um and and And so I like that idea of of of recognizing and and showing students interest or creating an interest in those differences. I think that um
00:23:37
margalus
all people. i don't um I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that one generation is dramatically different than another all of the time.
Cultural Adaptation and Communication in the South
00:23:44
margalus
Avoid uncertainty and tension because uncertainty creates risk. um i want I'm wondering as you're talking about you know finding out yeah the unique thing that you're going to tell somebody and taking chances. It seems to me you probably have a unique thing, one, and I don't know if this is a good segue into the second part, but it seems to me also like you took a really
00:24:10
margalus
big, not ah maybe not a big, but I mean moving from Chicago to the South, that's a chance. And I'm wondering how you thought about or what your decision making process was like in that move. So this is a two part question that might even be two different questions.
00:24:27
margalus
all together. What's your unique thing? And and you know that's ah ah you took a big chance too. And do you use that story ever to illustrate how you think through those kinds of risks and and and and make those kinds of decisions?
00:24:43
Patrick
Yeah, it was a big it was a big move. And um in terms of the sharing and the tension that you mentioned, yeah, you you run into that when you make moves. There's tension, because there's usually ah a difference between what you expect and what you experience. And that creates a form of tension. And it reminds me, um to me, it's a justice argument. And truth and justice are very much related. And in this case, it might be Social justice if we're talking about unique individuals sharing unique things about themselves in a in a community context there is a sense of social justice there because there are rules around just including people and not excluding them and there are rules around dignity and respect and When I moved here, um so I did a lot of research about the culture here. I'm in Birmingham, Alabama and um I
00:25:41
Patrick
very different culture from Chicago. And some of the key things that happened here in the late 1960s around um civil rights and movements and Martin Luther King letter from Birmingham jail, which for the record, I personally would put on par. I do put it on par with the apology of Socrates before his judges as a work of philosophy. I mean, they're both kind of short, um really, really amazing things. And one of the passages and letter from Birmingham jail says, well, it differentiates between a negative piece and a positive piece. Meaning a negative piece is the absence of tension, um which you're just talking about the value of tension. A negative piece is the absence of tension and a positive piece is the presence of justice. And so justice and truth, and it may be uncomfortable, but as long as there's some underlying ground rules, the truth can be
00:26:41
Patrick
set loose, so to speak. When we moved here, it was 2017-2018 in the University of Alabama at Birmingham, where I serve as the Goodrich Chair and Director of the Entrepreneurship Program, full professor. They were looking for somebody to build an entrepreneurship program. And I had i had done a lot of that work at DePaul. My my mentor had built that program.
00:27:10
Patrick
He was the Coleman chair of the entrepreneurship program at DePaul, a man named Harold Welch, who I worked with for 16 years there. um But I wasn't head of the program. I wasn't chair. he a I didn't want him to retire. it was you know I was perfectly happy there. But they contacted me and they had this interest in building a program and they had had searched for a while, and then they ended up hiring a search firm to comb the country. And that group reached out to me. And I had never heard of UAB, and I had never been to Birmingham. I may have driven through here when I was a junior and undergrad. We drove from Sioux City, Iowa to Panama City Beach. I don't know why we drove that far. It was a very long drive for spring break. And I think we may have driven through Birmingham, but I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm probably asleep.
00:28:07
Patrick
uh, uh, at the wheel or something. But it was, um, I didn't, I had never heard of UAB, but to your point, it was a risk. It was a big move. There was also uncertainty there. And I try to practice what I teach. I was therefore intrigued by it. And so I looked into it and talk with them about what they're looking for and what it's like here and visited and a lot of questions, a lot of interviews.
00:28:36
Patrick
um my My wife came down with me. They had a real estate tour for her. They helped her navigate the job market. They just made it really easy. I think they recognized what a big change it was because Chicago made me in terms of my professional style and my professional career. And so in coming down here, the Think Global Act local um logic kicked in.
00:29:02
Patrick
because I'm teaching the same concepts and I'm doing the same fundamental things that I did in Chicago. I'm developing curriculum, teaching students, working with entrepreneurs, conducting research, raising money, making local measurable impact. It all was the same activities, but the way they needed to be expressed and executed changed based on local differences, culturally laden local differences,
00:29:33
Patrick
And that took me about a year, quite frankly, to learn ah one year at least. And most of that was unlearning the Chicago way of doing things. And because the way things are done here, it's simpler than there. It's a little bit more in your face. It's a little bit more, it's slower. It's a little bit more polite. It's a little bit more,
00:29:59
Patrick
you know, comfort is like a cultural value here. If you don't, and like I've been in meetings down here and someone would say something to the effect of, I don't really feel like having this meeting today. And people will very quickly go, okay, you know, we can cancel it. That's fine. We don't have to. Whereas in Chicago, it might be like, well, who can sit in for you or we'll let you know what we talk about kind of a thing. We're still going to have the meeting. Um, yeah. So all these things, you kind of figure them out. And, um, I,
00:30:29
Patrick
i had ah I had nothing more than a hunch that it would work. um I learned the language. I curse a lot less down here. I ah use a lot of, I'm still very explicit in graphic a lot of times, more so than folks here, but I don't curse as much as I used to.
00:30:48
Patrick
And there's a, it's a pretty, you know, I said it,
00:30:52
margalus
No, go ahead go ahead go ahead
00:30:55
Patrick
I said it's simpler here, but in some ways it's more sophisticated in the weird, kid like the language, like we have phrases like like like bless your heart, whereas the Chicago version of that is G-F-Y, and we have, um like i'll if I say something that something happened surprising, and but it was really kind of shocking or we wish it didn't happen.
00:31:20
Patrick
If I share an event like that with a colleague down here, the reaction is usually something along the lines of, oh, whereas in Chicago it'd be like WTF, that would be the reaction.
00:31:31
margalus
Yeah.
00:31:32
Patrick
So it's sort of, everything's geared for a little bit more elegance and smooth like communication, which is nice, I'll be honest. It's kind of nice. It's a little bit more, a little bit more sophisticated. I'll be completely honest and just use that word. and But it's much slower and you can miss a lot of tension and uncomfortable t truths like we were talking about. You have to get at them in a different way. And that gets into raising money and building new things that people don't know what they're going to do and how you present those things. And I think I've got it now.
00:32:05
Patrick
um And I enjoy it very much, but yeah, it was a long shift in how I made sense out of work.
00:32:13
margalus
So you you mentioned having a mentor, at least one mentor in Chicago. Did you have anybody when you moved? Did you seek out mentorship to help with that transition or to help you figure out how to, I'm going to say work with this new material, but by material, I mean the mannerisms, the people, things like that. Or did you just kind of figure it out implicitly almost as you went along?
00:32:40
Patrick
I figured it out on the fly, um but folks recognized, folks would recognize the way that I would approach things and and they would coach and tell me, they really would proactively do that.
00:32:43
margalus
Yeah.
00:32:53
Patrick
I think it's a place where it's a strong culture and I think it's a place where they're used to folks from other places coming in and maybe not being in complete harmony with that culture and recognizing that quickly.
00:33:07
Patrick
Whereas in Chicago, you have It's like every culture is there. It's almost like white noise on the TV, all frequencies at once kind of a thing. um But here it's a little stronger in terms of the clarity of the ah shared values that define the culture. And so, yeah, there was a lot of proactive, yeah, I'm just thinking of early, like, folks coming up and offering a perspective and that sort of thing. And I had a really interesting conversation. There are some senior colleagues who are very helpful to me, who were born and raised here and built their careers here.
00:33:38
Patrick
And, um, you know, metaphors to your point, like the use of metaphors to explain, um, things to me. Uh, so one one of them, I'll just tell you like the disagreements around, uh, plans or programs that we're building. And you know, where I used to work, it would be like somebody would take a shot at the program and like criticize it and and you would need to defend it or argue or admit you're wrong and to be right out there.
00:34:07
Patrick
in the open, whereas here, it's not like that. And one of my senior colleagues was explaining, yeah, well, if someone throws a rock at you here, um maybe you're used to throwing a rock back at them, but that's not the way it works here. Here it's more like, if someone throws a rock at you, metaphorically speaking, if someone throws a rock at you, you might talk to somebody else who's near you to say, hey, did that individual throw a rock at me?
00:34:37
Patrick
And um the individual you ask that question of would respond and say, no, it wasn't a rock. It was more like a pebble. um So therefore, you kind of shouldn't really worry about it. That's that's more the cultural, um metaphorically speaking, the reaction here to criticism that comes from the outside. And there's there's some value in that, and I've learned to appreciate it. but um Yeah, so it's been very good for me to live here, work here, and learn these things. And and it has changed the way I need to get things done, because again, it's acting locally. um But doing that without giving up the broad consideration and the broad view and the broad perspective, which is easier today than before with information technology and everything, keeping the
00:35:31
Patrick
broad perspective as much as possible on how you make sense out of things. But then when it comes time to take action, you need to do it a little bit differently.
00:35:40
margalus
It strikes me that there should be an entrepreneurship class on how to how to run a business in different regions, how to how to work with people from different contexts. And you know if you're in Chicago, you're going to get right up on somebody. and And if you're in Birmingham or Lexington, Virginia, you're going to ask the person next to you if they threw a rock. or a you know there's and And if you're in Texas, then there's a whole different ballgame there too, right?
00:36:09
margalus
um Yeah, so how do you teach?
00:36:09
Patrick
Yeah.
00:36:12
margalus
so So maybe didn't look for mentorship, but definitely conveyed to people it sounds like when you when and you made your move that you're coachable. And I think that's a key key thing um for students as well is is to be able to, I don't know if it's to signal or just in the the mannerisms and the way you behave,
Mentorship: Knowledge vs. Wisdom
00:36:33
margalus
show people that you're coachable. You wrote a great piece for Techstars in July about mentorship and type 1, type 2 mentorship, um formal, informal, and how both of these modes are important for the development of a mentor. I know you're a a top Techstars mentor. For those who don't know, Techstars is a is a great national organization that that that gives startups and and people who run those startups, all sorts of resources, including mentorship. um So you've got a lot of experience with that. And I know mentorship is important to you. um how How do you approach that with your students? How do you how do you teach them to um to be coachable, to be malleable, and and to seek out those mentors as well?
00:37:22
Patrick
i A couple of different ways. um One of the ways is to, we spend a lot of time talking about the difference between knowledge and wisdom. um And I frame it sometimes in terms of text versus context.
00:37:38
Patrick
it Text without context is fundamentalism. That's how I think of it. You're you're a zealot. um you're You're just zeroed in and, you know, you take a risk or become a martyr or
00:37:44
margalus
Yeah.
00:37:51
Patrick
create damage. That's knowledge. That's pure knowledge and like information that's put into action without context. Wisdom is context. it You know, you've seen this before. The wise individual has seen something like this before and knows the maybe boundary conditions around that knowledge. And you know if you If you have no wisdom and you have a great tool, you'll think it can you can use it everywhere. But the wisdom will be, no, here's the context in which it won't work that well. i mean it's i mean A simple example would be, like if if you know a tomato is a fruit, that's knowledge. I guess the seeds are on the inside. okay it's kind of um But if you know not to put it in a fruit salad, that's wisdom.
00:38:47
Patrick
um Although in China, they do put tomatoes in fruit salad just for the record, but but here we generally don't, but that difference gets at it. So we spend a lot of time talking about that. And the mentoring function is about, you know you may know something like ah a tool or a framework or a platform or you know how something works or how to sell something or how to run something. but That's knowledge, that's cool. But if you really want it to be widely, more widely applicable into different domains, good coaching and mentoring from somebody on the outside who not only has more wisdom, but is a little bit farther away from the work, um you're going to have a lot of subjectivity in your thinking because you're close to the work and it may even be part of you. You can't separate the dancer from the dance, but the dancing coach or the audience member with a trained eye can see things
00:39:42
Patrick
in context that you can't see. So we use a lot of these metaphors to make sense out of mentoring. And the the coachability conversation comes in where we talk a lot about entrepreneurial superpowers and coachability is is one of them in my opinion. And it's also an indicator of a great entrepreneur. I believe great entrepreneurs are always very curious about alternative perspectives because it could bring forward a piece of information that they don't have yet that they need to do better work, to do a better job. So if someone comes forward to coach or offer perspective, the great disciplined entrepreneurial mind is going to show a lot of openness to that naturally and organically.
00:40:34
Patrick
So I've kind of simplified all of it. We, we have a lot of material related to that, but I, again, I do try to practice that. And when I, when I came here, I did have to lean in, uh, or lean on rather, I had to lean on some folks when I was trying to figure out certain things. Um, but yeah, it's, if you're not coachable, in my opinion, as an entrepreneur, you're, you're gonna severely limit your, your impact, maybe not your,
00:41:04
Patrick
operational success or performance in a narrow sense, but maybe the overall importance or the impact or the real robustness of what you're building, if you're not coachable, that's going to be curtailed, I think.
00:41:16
margalus
Yeah, you know that touches on, I'm going to put a pin in, think globally, act locally, because that's, I think, a thread that we've that's come through a lot in what we've been discussing. But before we we we move on to that or whatever else we move on to next, can can you talk a little bit? So you've got a great piece called Mentoring Entrepreneurs for Maximum Impact. For those you who are interested in finding it, just search for Techstars Mentoring and Entrepreneurship for Maximum stack Impact, Patrick Murphy. um It's a great piece.
00:41:44
margalus
Can you talk a little bit about the type two mentorship? Because I think, you know, we've we've talked a little bit about type one, but but the value, the the the greatest value I found when i when I find mentors is when we finally sit down and have that kind of type two mentorship conversation.
00:42:01
Patrick
Yeah, um so type one, type one mentoring would be what one thinks about normally as mentorship, maybe, you know, education or knowledge, experience, networking, you know, all the all the directly applicable relevant stuff. And that can include knowledge and wisdom, which we just talked about. But then this other kind of mentoring, which I call type two, um I just, I mean, it's probably the most uh, banal kind of boring name. I'm at type one and type two, you can't get less creative than that, I guess, but it it kind of categorized, um, nicely for me. And I think it is a nice way to refer to it. Type two mentoring involves the, maybe the everything that makes us implicitly human. So if you're going to work on something for a long time, it may take your perspective away from things that may be important in an indirect sense to your overall.
00:42:59
Patrick
health or energy, which can be directly relevant to the quality of your your work, or the um anxiety that can be produced by things not working out the way you want, or uncertainty and the the number it does on your mood throughout the day, or you know, anything that a talk with a trusted other or or a wise other who can share some perspective with you and make you feel better about what you're trying to work on or somebody who's done that before or something similar to that before so they know what it's like and they can share that knowledge with you. that's you know It's indirectly relevant to the business but I would suggest that this kind of
00:44:00
Patrick
mentorship, type 2 mentorship, it makes type 1 mentorship better. It makes the effect of type 1 mentorship um stronger.
00:44:11
Patrick
If you know what you need to do to close a deal, okay, fine, or how to structure a deal or what you need to say if you're negotiating, that's a lot of type 1 mentorship.
00:44:11
margalus
Yeah.
00:44:21
Patrick
but if your confidence around that or your belief in what needs to happen and your ability to make it happen is low, Type 2 mentoring can work on that belief and therefore the Type 1 mentoring will, it'll be more effective. So there's a relationship between the two, first of all, that I think is ah is a business case for why you should offer an expanded aye definition of mentoring for entrepreneurs. But the other side of it is, quite frankly, a lot of entrepreneurs just don't want it. They don't need you to make them feel better. They have other people that are already doing that or they're just robust enough where they don't want that. So I think it's important if you're designing a mentoring program or offering mentoring, make sure that the entrepreneur needs that they may not want you to try to make them feel better. I mean, that's pretty onerous and might even be a little annoying if you're
00:45:19
Patrick
you feel great and you're doing all this and somebody comes in and like, Oh, how do you feel? Are you stressed? Well, no, I'm not. Um, and why would you think that I, you know, just figure out if the entrepreneurs need that, um, maybe they need it and they don't want it or or maybe they don't want it and they really
Type 2 Mentorship and Resilience
00:45:37
Patrick
don't need it. So it has its place and it can be super important. And I don't think enough mentoring programs do it and i don't think there's I don't think there's a lot of mentors out there that are really ah aware that it can be useful and helpful. And so they don't think about offering it as much as they probably should. I actually spent a lot of time doing this just for the record, folks in my program. they There's a lot of life decisions that they're making. um I just talked with one recently and
00:46:16
Patrick
the individual was seeking perspective on some important life decisions involving where they live, involving a plan, involving a relationship with a significant other who they really liked and they wanted to try to make that fit into what they wanted to do. And also it involved their entrepreneurial project that they're trying to get off the ground. And the whole reason that the individual came to me was because They had this implicit human reaction to what was going on. They weren't comfortable with the whole situation. And they thought that maybe this older guy, who's my professor, might have some perspective on it. So I gave that individual type two mentoring. And everything that the individual learned in class with regard to their project and other things is going to be relevant. But now they can actually
00:47:16
Patrick
put that into practice a lot easier because they they got some what I call type two mentoring.
00:47:19
margalus
and
00:47:23
margalus
We should write. So this almost directly maps to, so and back I'm a backpacker. I do a lot of outdoor stuff. i'm ah ah ah I run the Midwest chapter for National Archives for the Sierra Club. I take people on volunteer backpack trips all the time. and Backpackers have all sorts of terms and language and slang that you don't hear outside of backpacking. um Like vitamin I is ibuprofen, right? And there's another term that's and perhaps not solely unique to backpacking, but you you hear a lot in backpacking, which is type one and type two fun. And type typed one fun in backpacking is it's fun because it's fun.
00:48:06
margalus
And type two backpacking is it's miserable when you're doing it, but then when you look back on it, it was a wonderful time. And so like, if I can give you a quick example, I led a backpacking trip a couple of years ago on this small island in the middle of Lake Superior called Isle Royale. Seven day backpack trip, first three days, beautiful weather, wonderful outside, type one fun. We're just hiking along, having a great time.
00:48:31
margalus
Fourth day hits, and we get 36 hours of rain. 36 hours of just getting poured on while you're backpacking, right? We had a woman almost go hypothermic. I had to take care of her. All sorts of challenges. And it creates a toughness. It creates kind of like a you know like when you're exercising and you realize you can push beyond where you think you're at and into some new place. It's like that that challenge is almost like your mentor. And it it shows you that you can move into something more challenging.
00:49:01
margalus
I think it gives you like a new mental model. And when when I look back on that trip, the first three days, fine, great. But it's the rain and the and that we made it through it and that you know you can do that. That is the type two fun. And then there's also a term type three fun, which is it's just not fun at all. um But we type two fun type two fun is is incredibly important because it creates those challenges and that toughness that that shows you you can that that you are much more than you think you you are, you can become much more than you think you are.
00:49:33
Patrick
You don't regret it, um but you wouldn't necessarily want to do it again, maybe. Glad you did it, maybe, but you wouldn't want to do it again.
00:49:40
margalus
Right.
00:49:42
Patrick
That's interesting.
00:49:45
margalus
Yeah, you don't seek it out. you don't Nobody wants to get rained on for 36 hours and and yet,
00:49:47
Patrick
Right. Right.
00:49:52
margalus
You know, that uncertainty creates something about you that, that helps. What advice do you give to people who, you know, do they know that they're getting into that, that those challenges? Do they know that they're getting into that uncertainty? How do you, when you're mentoring people through these kind of type two scenarios, is it, is it mental models? Is it like higher, higher order, you know, structures of thinking about the challenges? What is it that you're, how are you queuing them to work through these kinds of challenges?
00:50:20
Patrick
it's part of It's one part of the entrepreneurial mindset. It's a mental model, if you will. um We have a bunch of them. One of them that we talk about, it takes a while to instill this in learners' minds. And I don't think a lot of entrepreneurs think about this, but there's really two different ways to make a mistake. Um, if you're struggling with uncertainty or you're performing and you're trying to improve or grow and eventually you'll break through, but you don't know when and you're trying things that you've never done before and you don't know if they're going to work or not. There's, there's I think there's a really useful way to think about this. Um, like sort of like, think of it this way. There's two ways to be wrong about something. The first way is,
00:51:09
Patrick
You expect to be right. um And you're surprised by the fact that you're wrong. So you make a plan.
00:51:17
margalus
Okay.
00:51:17
Patrick
It doesn't work out. You thought it was going to work out, but it didn't. You learn from that. So when you try it again, at least you won't try that same approach, perhaps, because you learned it didn't work.
00:51:31
Patrick
But that learning is incremental. It's not transformational. The better type of learning And it is possible to put yourself into situations where this type of um error, which which I think of as learning, is more likely
Experiential Learning and Growth through Challenges
00:51:49
Patrick
to occur, is when you expect to be wrong, but you're surprised by the fact that you're right, which is the opposite of the first one in which you expect to be right. You're surprised by the fact that you're wrong. Here you expect or half expect the thing not to work, and then it does, and you're surprised
00:52:08
Patrick
by the fact that it does. but That's not incremental learning. That's breakthrough transformational learning. And it happens in more advanced um applications of systems of knowledge or wisdom. Like if you're learning a language, for example, a spoken language, let's say, and you're halfway good at it. And you I did this probably 100 times or or more in the 90s when I lived in China. But you're learning a language and you You don't know it very well and you go out and you're in an environment where you have to use it and then you'll try to use it, maybe a sentence, never use that sentence before. You maybe use words in that sentence you've never used before and you don't really expect it to come across. Um, and you just constructed the sentence on the spot based on your, your fragmented knowledge and you expect it not to work, but you use it and it works. And then you're surprised by the fact that it worked. That's like a breakthrough. Now you have a whole new option.
00:53:07
Patrick
that you never had before. And there are ways as an entrepreneur to enter a domain where you're not fully educated, and the the level of uncertainty is high with regard to what you know and don't know.
00:53:24
Patrick
um And you you you can experiment. It's it's ready fire aim. it's It's trial and error. And here again, knowing that nine times out of 10, it probably won't work.
00:53:34
margalus
Thank you.
00:53:36
Patrick
but the one time that it will, the positive value of the one hit will outweigh the negative value of the nine ah failures or mistakes, ah knowing that we have this great asymmetry that unbalance moves toward progress, not not away from progress. And so for an ah for an entrepreneur who's wanting to navigate uncertainty or or learn and grow,
00:54:03
Patrick
and think about the kinds of experiences where you expect the hike on the island in the middle of Lake Superior to be good weather. um And you're surprised by the fact that it's not, you know, it's one way to think about it. The other way is is to kind of enter that domain expecting it not to be perfect, but then maybe it's um type two fun. you you're you're surprised by the fact eventually that something about it worked in a way that you didn't quite expect.
00:54:31
Patrick
And that's probably where the type two fun concept, it kind of reflects that logic, um the whole concept does.
00:54:34
margalus
Yes.
00:54:37
Patrick
But yeah, so we we try to frame things that way. And this is hard to teach. I don't think you can get it from YouTube videos or books. I really don't. We spend a lot of time, I talk about it like I just did, but then like we were talking about earlier, we've by that point,
00:54:55
Patrick
built a community where, you you know, a bunch of different people are going to look at that in a bunch of different ways and have a bunch of different examples, which they share with me and with each other in, in the meeting, in the room, in the class. And it rounds out the understanding that everybody has. And it's different every single time. Like I said, that's local action, but it's the same concept over and over and over again, just because it's different people. The way it's talked about is different.
00:55:23
Patrick
So we we we frame it that way, typically, um with regard to that.
00:55:26
margalus
Yeah.
00:55:27
Patrick
And it cultivates the discipline of the entrepreneurial mindset. And I use that word discipline intentionally, because if it's a discipline, that means it can be learned.
00:55:39
Patrick
But it's not like a skill or or something you learn quickly. You learn it through experience plus understanding.
00:55:48
margalus
i've i've I've often heard 90% of learning is caught, not taught. And so ah you know you can you can talk in front of a classroom about dealing with uncertainty, but ultimately, like you said, you have to build those communities. And when I think of communities, I think of systems too. You have to build those systems, the sandbox.
00:56:11
margalus
you're constructing a sandbox more than you're giving information out, and you're creating a sandbox that encourages those kinds of opportunities. So that's really interesting. And I'm also, because I agree, you know, I was asked the other day, you know, how do you teach creativity? And I said, similarly, I'm not so certain I can teach creativity, but I am pretty sure I know how to create space. And I don't mean like a physical space, but the the room, the the the the metaphorical space where people can then feel free or can move into creativity.
00:56:47
margalus
So this is interesting.
00:56:48
Patrick
That's right.
00:56:49
margalus
You've talked a lot about doing this with students, but you of course are the head of a program as well, which is building a system, and you have faculty who are in this program, and you're trying to make this system, I would assume, sustainable.
Progressive Curriculum and Educational Trends
00:57:02
margalus
So how do you go about building these kind of sustainable sandboxes that encourage the kinds of uncertainty seeking and creativity that you're talking about?
00:57:19
Patrick
One is the curriculum. We have a really great broad-based, progressive, unique entrepreneurship undergraduate ah curriculum in our bachelor's degree, in our major, that gives incredible latitude to the instructors um to create space and deliver the material in a lot of different ways. Our curriculum is geared for what you're talking about. we We do tend to, ah we take a very deductive approach, I think, to um learning, not an inductive approach. we I can't tell you what will work. It'll be easier for me to tell you what won't, and then we kind of narrow the range around what might or what will. So the curriculum, which we put a lot of thought into, is one piece. The other piece is fundraising. we've
00:58:15
Patrick
We are very aggressive in terms of raising money um from the community here, external donors, fundraisers, our fundraising activity, my fundraising partners of the university. We always are looking for ah support and it varies from university to university, but here um we've we've raised almost $7 million dollars in the last five years. And these are endowed gift accounts that generate a return Um, and you know, we don't touch the principle and this is how we pay our bills. So that has been a very explicit strategy from the beginning to fund this new program through that kind of. Approach to making it sustainable for in a more robust way. And so now with that, you know, if we didn't have that, we would have to work off of operational money.
00:59:12
Patrick
that may or may not be allocated to us based on the operations of the larger structure. And then if we want to run, this really applies to our events and extracurricular programs. If we want to run them, ah we may or may not be able to run them based on the the argument or the proposal or what's going on operationally. Whereas with the endowed funds, it is exposed to the market, but it's it's not like wildcat oil wells we're talking about here. It's pretty reliable returns that we know will be there. And so again, the space around what we can do if we're supporting ourselves that way is much greater. um So conceptually with the curriculum, ontologically with the curriculum, but then in a very practical way with the way that we financed ourselves.
01:00:03
Patrick
um that's That's how we do that. So we we do offer a range of different programs and we change them a lot. we We have a lot of very different extracurricular programs all the time based on conversations we're having, based on what members of the community are have expressed interest in, and we were sensitive to receiving those signals and modifying what we do for the ecosystem accordingly.
01:00:15
margalus
in.
01:00:31
Patrick
And then with our financial model we're able to make that stuff happen.
01:00:38
margalus
So we're getting we're getting close here and I don't want to take up too much. This is like a really easy, fun conversation. i've I've thoroughly enjoyed this. But I think that what you just talked about leads perfectly into and the kind of ah you know and into something that that could tie a bow around some of this.
01:00:55
margalus
so So having the access to endowed funds, giving you the ability to kind of change the curriculum constantly, you're responding to both, I would assume, what you see in your students and what you see in your faculty, but also what you see like more broadly. It's that think global and then act local with within what's within your control almost. um what What are some trends or what are some things that you're paying attention to right now that has you rethinking or considering new courses for the for your entrepreneurship program. What should people be paying attention to you know at that global level?
01:01:33
Patrick
Social enterprise is a big one. Um, I don't mean nonprofit. I mean one operational model that generates more than one type of value, um, meaning economic plus social, plus perhaps ecological, like the triple bottom line.
01:01:49
Patrick
I believe entrepreneurship is downstream from culture, from local culture, pretty much everywhere you go.
01:01:54
margalus
Mm hmm.
01:01:55
Patrick
And so I view the Birmingham ecosystem as a kind of social enterprise hub, um, because of the. civil rights history here and because of the nature of the way the culture is defined in relation to historically excluded communities and things like that. I think there's a lot of um currency around generating that type of value and not just here. I think in a lot of places and it's going to be a little bit different based on the local demographics and the makeup. But with technology evolving in the way that it is, I
01:02:30
Patrick
I don't know that everybody's aware that technology and the social realm, they're converging. So if you think of all the leading edge, bleeding edge technologies, the, I don't know, like going to space, cryptocurrency, crowdfunding, decentralized autonomous organizations, pretty much all of them are, have a social purpose wrapped up in what they're trying to do, even
01:02:56
margalus
Okay.
01:02:58
Patrick
Space travel, why why would we want to go to Mars? as Well, to save humanity in case an asteroid hits or multi-planatories. There's a strong social argument there, and there is with I think all of them. So the technological realms and the social realms in my ah observation are converging, which leads entrepreneurship toward what I call social enterprise. And you can see it not just with technology and social purpose, but you can see it with generation in a generational sense. Like I mentioned, we're very generational. If I ask a room of Gen Z students and learners right now, how many of you like the idea of becoming an entrepreneur at some point in your future? I get about 80% raise their hand. And then of the 80%, 70% or 80% of those, when I ask them, do you have some social purpose embedded in what you want to do?
01:03:57
Patrick
um say yes. So it wasn't that way 10 years ago. And to me, there's a trend toward that kind of entrepreneurship. um And I think it's largely technologically driven, not just because of the business models you're able to create and form, but also because of what the technology has done for the current generation as they grow. um And mature and learn, these are the young people who, in my view, are the first native users of technology, meaning good technology that works ah from a young age, from the moment they started using it.
01:04:30
margalus
So.
01:04:40
Patrick
And that and there's it's powerful, it's affordable, there's a universe of content out there, and they're able to navigate that and ignore what they don't like and pay attention to what they do like.
01:04:52
Patrick
And that affordance creates a very strong sense of identity, which to me is just one step away from being an entrepreneur, because now you can bring the work closer to your heart and build something that expresses who you are uniquely. And that's what entrepreneurs do. And if you're building something that's personally meaningful, it usually gets down to your own personal values and your values, social purpose is embedded in those. And if those values are shared with other people, like
01:05:23
Patrick
somebody might care, for instance, a lot about animal welfare because of early experiences. So they research that online and then they share that with others. That leads very directly into a kind of social enterprise approach. And on top of that, I think the shared values that define um a problem, maybe if it's animal, you know, and the problems associated with animal welfare, the values associated with that, or any human values,
01:05:53
Patrick
To me, they have the characteristic of expectations about the future um because they give you a compass for how to act when the environment is uncertain. Well, we're charitable. So if I don't get any strong environmental cues, I'm going to try to do charitable things for whomever I can see. So it's very strategic, but it's culturally driven strategy, which outruns planning-based strategy, which as soon as the environment shifts unexpectedly, a plan becomes irrelevant, but values, you can find new ways to express them after the environment changes. So to me, that's social enterprise in a nutshell. And to me, that's the big trend that people aren't really doubling down on or learning deeply enough about right now.
01:06:34
margalus
I love it. It's like Mike Tyson's, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
01:06:38
Patrick
yeah
01:06:39
margalus
there's a
01:06:39
Patrick
Right.
01:06:41
margalus
That's fantastic. Fantastic. great Great way to kind of tie a bow around it all. and that ah the I should mention you've got a great paper on all of this from 2009, a model of social entrepreneurial discovery that people should check out that touches on some of these things too.
01:06:58
margalus
You've got all sorts of great things out there. um you know every Yeah.
01:07:00
Patrick
That paper, by the way, the one you just mentioned, um there was a study in France in 2021, some French scholars put it together. They put 500 social entrepreneurial research papers together and then narrowed that down to the top 100 and analyzed that top 100 very closely on like seven or eight different indicators. The paper you just cited was surprising to me.
01:07:22
Patrick
I mean, talk about things unexpected. Number six in that list of 100, number six most influential paper in the field of social enterprise.
01:07:26
margalus
Yes.
01:07:31
margalus
Yeah, yeah. fact I mean, you've you've got a lot of great stuff out there. I know I have, in my notes, ranked highly influential in the social entrepreneurship fields as well. So um everything you do, I think, is is pretty fantastic, and I appreciate any time that you give.
01:07:48
margalus
give me and and everybody who's listening because I think there's a lot to learn. um If people want to, well, it's it's also true.
01:07:53
Patrick
That's very kind of you. Thank you.
01:07:58
margalus
If people want to learn more about what you're doing or want to find other things that you're up to right now, where are they going to do that? Where can they find you?
01:08:06
Patrick
a I mean, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I usually put events and things up there. For right now, at least, that's ah that's a good platform to connect with me on so people can go there. on ah The Google Scholar page, if they're interested in my research, is pretty good for finding papers that I've written and published. um I post on Axe Twitter. that That's a little bit more um personal, interesting, just fun type of stuff. not i usually I post a little bit of work on there, but not not too much. But I think those ways, or they can just look me up and send me a note or something.
01:08:42
margalus
Cool, great. Thanks again, Patrick. I appreciate your time and you know yeah, I can't thank you enough. Appreciate it as always.
01:08:51
Patrick
very welcome. Thanks for having me.