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Episode 013: Christina Scalera - Effective Client Contracts
145 Plays6 years ago
Christina Scalera, attorney and founder of The Contract Shop, joins Davey for a discussion on effective client contracts. We cover questions like who needs a contract, common contract mistakes, what needs to be in a contract, and how to work the contract into the client experience.
The highlights:
3:06 - From law school to yoga teacher to attorney for creatives
13:16 - Who needs a contract? And why is it such an afterthought for people?
21:52 - Why a contract benefits both parties.
24:58 - How can we make client contracts work for us in the client experience?
28:48 - Dealing with people asking to add or take things out of a contract.
35:48 - Why Davey & Krista never change their contract for anyone.
38:46 - The most common mistakes Christina sees people make with contracts.
44:12 - Who should sign the contract? Is it okay for the mother of the bride to sign the contract?
47:59 - Why you shouldn't be scared of getting specific in your contract?
Christina Scalera is the attorney and founder behind The Contract Shop, a contract template store for creative entrepreneurs, wedding professionals, and coaches.
Three years ago, Christina found herself dreaming of pursuing a more creative path, and she started to look for alternatives to her in-house legal job. She explored everything from teaching yoga to becoming a freelance graphic designer to opening an Etsy shop.
In the process, she ended up coming full circle by creating a business that brought the benefit of her legal training to help her fellow creatives.
When she’s not staring at a computer or awkwardly standing on cafe chairs for the perfect overhead latte photo, you can find her in the woods doing things that are sometimes dangerous but always fun, like riding horses, skiing and reluctantly camping.
For the show notes, go to https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-christina-scalera-episode-13/
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Transcript
Common Contract Mistakes
00:00:05
Speaker
Are there certain mistakes that you see over and over again that people make with contracts that they should absolutely avoid? Yeah, how much time do we have? Okay, so here's like some quick wins for you guys. The biggest mistakes that I see are around numbers.
Introduction to Guest: Christina Sclera
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome to The Brands That Book Show, where we help creative businesses find more clients and build their brains. I'm your host, Davy Jones. Today's guest is Christina Sclera.
Christina's Journey to Entrepreneurship
00:00:41
Speaker
Christina is the attorney and founder behind the contract shop
00:00:44
Speaker
a contract template store for creative entrepreneurs, wedding professionals, and coaches. Three years ago, Christina found herself dreaming of pursuing a more creative path, and she started to look for alternatives to her in-house legal job. She explored everything from teaching yoga, to becoming a freelance graphic designer, to opening an Etsy shop. And in the process, she ended up coming full circle by creating a business that brought the benefit of her legal training to help her fellow creatives.
00:01:17
Speaker
Alright, Christina, welcome to the Brands at Books show. I'm so happy that you're able to join us, in part because I've been on Creative Empire twice now and have had a blast being interviewed by you and Reyna. So I've been excited to have you on this show.
00:01:33
Speaker
and i'm not gonna lie it's actually been really difficult to prepare for this interview because the span of things the span of things that i want to talk to you about is pretty great you know like you could talk about e-commerce i mean just before this conversation started before we started recording here we are talking about affiliate marketing and we are talking about trademarks so there's so many things that we could talk about
00:01:58
Speaker
So it was really hard to say, OK, no, we're going to take this time. We're going to talk about contracts and everything that you need to know about contracts. So that was really difficult to narrow the conversation down just to that subject. And I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if we stray a little bit here. But you're in Colorado right now where you spend a lot of your winter, right? Yeah, that's correct. This is a new thing in the last two years.
00:02:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. Super jealous about that. So again, thank you for taking time out of skiing to join us here.
Transition from Law to Business
00:02:32
Speaker
We start with pretty much every episode just trying to get a sense for your background. And one thing that we found, one thing that I really enjoyed learning
00:02:41
Speaker
is that everybody's background is so varied. The journeys generally aren't in a straight line. A lot of people went to college for something completely different or had jobs and side hustles that were completely different than what they're doing now. I know that's the case for you because we've chatted before. Could you just tell us about how you got started?
00:03:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny to hear you asking that question because I feel like you're such a big part of my story So I graduated from law school got my dream job working in-house Just really really excited for that and for a lot of different reasons including some health related stuff I ended up quitting. I kind of had reached burnout. I was working full-time studying for the bar full-time Going to school full-time and then I take this full-time job. No breaks, right? I
00:03:33
Speaker
just straight through college to law school to full-time job and it was just also overwhelming and my health started to really deteriorate. So for a lot of reasons, health included, I left and I didn't really know what I was going to do and I'm not really someone who's good at moderation. So I went in the total opposite direction and became a yoga teacher because I had seen an attorney who had become a successful yoga teacher in DC. We became really good friends. She was a mentor of mine and
00:04:00
Speaker
She kind of helped me get this business started in Atlanta. The problem was I just was really, really bad at booking clients. I would get back to them late. I didn't have a contract to send them to them because when you graduate from law school, there's not like a bank of contracts or legal documents that gets handed to you. Just like everybody else, I had to go to legal zoom and the corners of the internet and try to pull something together because when you Google, you know, yoga teacher contract,
00:04:29
Speaker
unless you find it in my shop, you're probably not going to find it. I feel like that's so surprising here just because of, I mean, since I've known you. I mean, it's just shocking to me that you had trouble booking clients, you know, because I just think you're such a savvy business person. And then also just coming out of law school and having trouble with contracts. I think that says something about the complexity of this issue.
00:04:53
Speaker
I would agree with that. So I was really frustrated. And I will say that even though I'm really good at closing deals now and getting clients on board, and I have two businesses, one's a service-based business, one's a product-based business. So in my service-based business, we do have a really, really good conversion rate to the point where we keep putting our prices higher and higher. People keep saying yes. So that's a good problem to have. But back then, that was not what was happening. And small tip for you guys listening out there,
00:05:22
Speaker
Don't take two weeks to send someone a proposal when they say
Challenges in Proposal and Contract Delays
00:05:26
Speaker
they want to work with you. That was a big issue. I was taking a long time trying to find these contracts. And then I was trying to make them really beautiful in Photoshop with my incredibly limited, horrific graphic design skills. So adding florals to the outside and having this thing that they'd have to print and send back to me. It was just this horrible thing.
00:05:50
Speaker
What ended up happening is I took two weeks to put this thing together, put it into Photoshop. If you ever tried to write like a seven page document in Photoshop, it's just don't. It's a nightmare. That's what InDesign is for if you have to go that route, but I didn't know that at the time. And so finally this thing is done. It's horrifically pretty. Like in hindsight, it was not pretty, but at the time it was like, this is beautiful. I can't wait to send this. But then when it came time to send it,
00:06:17
Speaker
I'm like, wait, two weeks have passed. And I start doubting everything about me, right? So this is a situation that I find myself in. Also, like many of you, I'm like, but
00:06:27
Speaker
The possibilities are endless. I could be a calligrapher. Well, I have to shoot photography for my blog that I have for this yoga thing. So maybe I could be a photographer. Well, I have to design graphics for Pinterest. I'm actually a good graphic designer. I wasn't. But these were all the things that I'm like, well, yoga is not really making money. I don't know if I really want to work with clients one on one in that intimate kind of way.
00:06:49
Speaker
as a private yoga teacher, and so I'm like, oh, these other possibilities are now a thing because I started this blog and I've gotten experience there now. Fortunately, I went to a lot of different creative conferences. That was where I met you in the fall of 2015 at Creative at Heart. And Johnson, right? Yeah. Yeah. That was like, if you guys want to meet someone, this is probably not how you should do it. I messaged, so the rising tide had just started.
00:07:20
Speaker
and Krista, the co-founders, and I had messaged Krista, and I was like, hey, I know you're here. I want to talk to you about this idea that I have. Zero business experience, zero success, just a passion to do this thing. I messaged her, and I'm like, I think you need a podcast. That's where it's going. And she was like,
Founding The Contract Shop
00:07:40
Speaker
I love Krista. Well, you were right. You were right. That's where things were going. I wish I started this podcast three years ago. I just need everybody to get a three-year head start. But yeah, go ahead.
00:07:50
Speaker
No, I love it. So, you know, like here I am, all these like creative pursuits and passions and dabbling and all these things, not really making money, but except for working with a couple legal clients on the side, and then finally seeing the light and then coming to this creative conference where I'm like, business legal, it all makes sense, you know, all this stuff meshes together and then approaching Krista. And she's like, so polite about it. She's like, well, I think you should talk to Davey. And so I ended up talking to you there. And
00:08:18
Speaker
At the time, the contract shop, or what is now the contract shop, had been born. I put up a Squarespace website. I had this idea. I was trying to pre-sell the templates. I had a couple nibbles here and there, but not really like success, right? And you're like, well, I think a podcast is maybe a little far out right now from what we're doing, but we are doing this webinar series. And you are so kind to bring me on to this webinar series, which I had no idea what to expect.
00:08:46
Speaker
We didn't either. I'll let you in on a little secret. Webinars were a new world to us. And the podcast to me, it always sounded like a really great idea. I think we were just so busy at the time with so many different things going on with our own business and then with the Rising Tide Society growing. But whether you had realized it or not at the time, you were offering a ton of value to us because A, you were a lawyer. And I think one of the most
00:09:13
Speaker
One of the biggest questions we get are about contracts and trademarks and copyright law and so on and so forth. And we couldn't keep up with the amount of content that we wanted to create. So it was awesome that you came along and pitched that idea. Well, I am glad I asked. I was horrified on that first webinar. And then you were so kind also to let me pitch. And I think I put out the world's worst pitch
00:09:40
Speaker
to
First Webinar Experience
00:09:41
Speaker
this giant audience that you were so kind of put me in front of. And it was just kind of like, well, I have this website that it kind of has this stuff on it. If you want, you can go buy it. Like somewhere out there, someone has the recording. I hope it's been destroyed. I'm still proud of the content, actually. I still use the slides that I created. Like that's kind of my foundational content that I still use for some presentations. But yeah, that pitch was not good.
00:10:07
Speaker
But the important part was that you just got out there and you did it, you know, you just, I mean, all of that through all of that, you know, you just kept on you just kept going, you know, you, you went and pitched, even though maybe at the time, you didn't know really what that should look like, or you probably coach somebody a little bit differently than, you know, how you did it in the past, right. And the webinar was new, but you did it anyways, and you got out in front of people. And I think,
00:10:31
Speaker
I mean, I remember the webinar and I thought it was a great webinar. I mean, as far as the value goes, I mean, we could talk about the sales pitch at the end. But the content that you provided was incredible. And so I think a lot of people were blessed by that, you know, by getting on and watching that. Well, thanks. Yeah. So anyway, that was how the contract shop was founded. And it was just my name at the time. And it's since evolved into that.
00:10:57
Speaker
And so really it was at Creative of a Heart where you kind of realized, hey, I love this creative side because you have been exploring different things, whether it be yoga or calligraphy or photography. And then going to Creative you realized, oh wow, this legal stuff, like people need this legal stuff as well. Yeah, it was a culmination of a couple of different things. So it was a culmination of being a creative, having that reinforced because at the time I had already started the site.
00:11:25
Speaker
kind of to back up just a little bit I had as I was like seeking like what am I gonna do I don't know I'm in this place of really if you're there you know the frustration like you know how hard it is to be there where you're like I could do so many different things but I don't know which one is going to be like whatever you want your ticket to financial freedom or time freedom or whatever it is that you're looking for
00:11:46
Speaker
And so that's where I was. And I went to three conferences. I went to a loom with Bonnie Batiari. And that was where I met Jenna, Jenna Kutcher. So we're pretty good friends now. And she's a client and I'm in her mastermind, that kind of thing. So that was where that relationship started. And she just kind of pulled me aside that night at a loom. She hadn't talked at all. I had no idea who she was. I was the only person there that didn't know who she was. And she's like, you have to do this thing.
00:12:13
Speaker
Because I had come into that conference like, I'm a yoga teacher, but also a lawyer, and I don't know how those things go together. And she was like, this is the thing that you need to do. So I'm forever grateful to her for just pulling me aside in that moment, because that was what kicked off the website. And then getting that reinforce it, I went to making things happen and creative at heart as well. So those were the reinforcing aspects of this is something that people need. Because once I just kind of stuck my nose out there, and I was like, hey, I have this website, and I sell this thing.
00:12:44
Speaker
Once I started telling people about the website and the contract templates, everybody was like, Oh my gosh, I need to go find it immediately. And it was like this, I don't wanna say like craze, but it was like this very excited feeling that people would get. And that felt really, really good after two years, essentially of people being like, yoga, health, nah, I don't want like your, my blog had maybe 100 readers on it. And half of them were spam bots, but you know, to go from like 100 readers to like 600 readers a month, that was huge.
00:13:14
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And I think there's so many different people that have gone through a similar, similar journey.
Why Contracts Matter for Business?
00:13:20
Speaker
And certainly, I have in the last couple years, as we transitioned out of rising tide society, there are so it's so hard when there are so many different things you can do, and then also so many different things that you enjoy doing, you know, to figure out, okay, here, where do I where should I focus my time and energy. So I think that's a I think that's a journey that that will resonate with a lot of people.
00:13:43
Speaker
But shifting our attention towards contracts. I feel like it is an afterthought, even for somebody like you who was a lawyer at the time when you were doing this yoga studio. It's kind of an afterthought for people to say, okay, I need a contract. And even now, I kind of find myself
00:14:09
Speaker
interested in different people that I work with, especially like a lot of long care providers, just different different contractors that Chris and I have hired to do work around the house. Some of them, you know, require contracts, and some of them just kind of show up and do the work and get out. Like, why do you think it's such an afterthought for people? And then who needs a contract, you think? Yeah, great questions. I think it's an afterthought because it's scary. Most people tell they have the story in their head, right? Like, I have a story in my head that I'm bad at math.
00:14:40
Speaker
I'm probably not really bad at math, but I just don't try. I have the same story, but I'm actually bad at math. It's a true story. But think about the stories that we tell ourselves, the patterns that we put ourselves in. And I think one of them as business owners is that we tell ourselves legal is scary. And it doesn't help that there's a bunch of attorneys out there that are telling you that you can't do things yourself. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I had a professor in law school that just
00:15:07
Speaker
told us to make things complicated for people because that was how we were going to keep our jobs. That was how you stay in business as you make things hard and then they need you as the attorney, as the translator to help them with their stuff. And I don't believe in that. I think people are actually a lot smarter than we give them credit for. I think the people that are out there that are maybe just kind of getting their feet wet or kind of timid about business or
00:15:32
Speaker
making excuses as to I can't send that contract, it's too long, or I can't send that contract, it's too complicated, I don't understand it, I'm scared to send it. Those are all just stories that we have in our head. Because first of all, if it is truly an issue, like where you don't understand something, then it's your responsibility as the business owner to understand that fundamental core document, that's the foundation of your client service provider relationship. And so whether that means getting a new template,
00:16:00
Speaker
Or it means, you know, having an attorney or a friend or somebody like walk you through what your contract actually means. So our contracts come with hold my hand guides where we just like walk you through each provision. So you actually know what your contract is saying to you, because that's really important. When a client has a question about your contract, it doesn't look professional for you to go back and say, actually, I don't know. I didn't draft the saying. I have no idea. I just downloaded it from somebody on the internet here. It's like, figure it out.
00:16:27
Speaker
Or what often happens is you get scared, right? Like you're like, Oh, I'm not going to book this client anymore. So you pull that provision out. And that's, that's really important. Like everything that's in our templates, I can't speak for other attorneys, I'm sure it's the same. But at least in ours, I know that everything is there for a reason. And there's nothing that's repeated. There's nothing that's excessive. There's nothing that we've left out. Like it's it's all very specific. And so to take something out, just because you don't understand that provision can be really dangerous. So
00:16:57
Speaker
I think that's why contracts or just legal things in general with your business are scary. People just have this idea that they're going to go to jail. They're like, I just don't want to go to jail. Any kind of legal move that they make, whether that's registering an LLC or getting a contract or sending a contract, that that's something that could land them in jail or that they could get in trouble for.
00:17:23
Speaker
I get it because it's very permanent,
Fear of Legal Documents and Building Confidence
00:17:25
Speaker
right? Like when you sign up for an LLC, it's not just like you signing up for a 14-day trial. This is you committing to your state that you are in business now. And that's a really scary commitment for people to make. And then even further, when you work with clients, sending that contract that you know is a legally binding document, that can be really scary because you're like, what if I left something out? What if I left too much in? What if I said the wrong thing?
00:17:51
Speaker
And so you start to second guess and question yourself if you're not really confident in the document that you're sending. So there's two ways to get confidence in the document that you send. One is to have somebody else do it for you. And it's done, you know, that it's been, you know, through the ringer, vetted, tested, downloaded, or drafted by an attorney. So that's one way. And then the other way is just through experience. So that's kind of the school of hard knocks freeway.
00:18:18
Speaker
And it's just like anything else, right? You have an SEO course. People can spend 10 years trying to figure out SEO for themselves or they can just take the shortcut, grab your SEO course and they're done, right? Like they know what they're doing now and they're getting results in six months instead of six years.
00:18:32
Speaker
So, I mean, just like anything else that's available for them, that's the path. I am forgetting your second question. That was a follow-up. Oh, no. It was really who needs, but I mean, this is a good place to pause because what you're saying reminds me of something that it was either in one of his books, but Tim Ferriss, author of a four-hour workweek, right? It was either in one of his books or it was an interview that I was listening to.
00:18:55
Speaker
and he was talking about all these interviews he does with these crazy talented people and i think it was in the context was tools of titans which is one of his more recent books so one of the interviews he was doing and he was talking about how you know a real expert is that they can take what seems like a really complicated subject.
00:19:13
Speaker
and break it down into simple components that even he, as a novice to whatever that subject is, could understand. And that's something that really stuck with me, and I think it's awesome. And we have contracts of yours from the contract shop. And I just think it's awesome that you take the time to explain what those things mean, that you don't make it overly complicated just so that it seems like a subject that nobody else could possibly master or do on their own.
00:19:39
Speaker
So I think kudos to you for doing that. Yeah, trying and trying every day to make it easier, better, quicker, faster. And it's funny, Davey, because I had a lot of resistance to updating the templates, even though I was getting feedback and laws were changing, things were changing because I'm like, oh my gosh, what if our templates come with lifetime updates? And I'm like, what if they think that I forgot something?
00:20:07
Speaker
that something was wrong and that I'm this bad or imperfect person. I've just been updating them like crazy lately because I'm like, you know what? Maybe they would think that, but at the same time, the people that do make the changes and the updates that we're making, they're going to have a better, more solid contract. Not serving them, that wouldn't be having my best business or having my best foot forward with them.
00:20:35
Speaker
I think as far as who needs a contract, anybody that wants to have a business, this is the first investment that they should be making, arguably a website too. For anybody who has a business, because like I said, we actually had two different companies come and cut our yard for
00:20:53
Speaker
I mean, the months in which a yard needs to be cut, right? So, one company, they just show up. They show up, we stick money under the doormat, that's how they prefer to collect it, and that's great. The other company, they're a little bit more technologically advanced. They have assigned a contract online, and then they also just, it comes out of an account every month, it's auto pay.
00:21:19
Speaker
So even for a company like that where it's I think we pay like 35 to 45 dollars a week for that service. So even somebody like that should have a contract.
00:21:29
Speaker
Well, which one are you using now? Are you still using both of them? No, actually, we just we actually ended it this year. So it's something that I've done in the past and I actually like doing is just the last two years have been busy. So we had somebody else do it for us. Yeah, but the second company that we use the most recent company we use was the one that didn't have a contract, you know, just kind of preferred cash or check under the under the doormat or in the in the mailbox.
00:21:52
Speaker
Interesting, yeah, so I'm thinking about it and I'm kind of horrified. Just because, you know, what if they get hurt? Like lawnmowers have lots of crazy things happening. There's rocks that hurt windows and blades and like all this stuff, you know, and what if it happens on your property? If you have a contract, there's probably something in there, there should be something in there that is talking about if the care provider, if the lawnmower guy or, you know, any of his assigns, blah, blah, blah.
00:22:20
Speaker
Any of those contractors show up on your property, they get hurt, and it's because they were messing with the blade or whatever. It's the company's fault. So that's something that you could read into and see in the contract when you're working with that service provider. And it's no different in the businesses that are listening to this podcast either. So if you're a brand designer or you're a photographer and somebody gets hurt on your watch, whether that's physical hurt, you put
Dual Protection in Contracts
00:22:48
Speaker
them in a pose and they fell over, whatever.
00:22:50
Speaker
or intellectual property hurt where you are designing something, you don't realize that the design you created is actually like, you saw it four months ago somewhere and you internalized it, you didn't realize it, but you just spit out somebody's registered trademark as your client's design. So those are the kinds of things that if I were hiring a service provider, I would want them to take that professional step
00:23:14
Speaker
and have a contract that either tells me that they are liable if something like that happens. I'm not as the person using it out in the world. Or I would just make sure that they and or I would make sure that they have insurance to protect against things that happen because everybody knows like Murphy's law, whenever something can go wrong, it's going to. And so, you know, just having the contract, it's there for the service provider to make sure that they get paid.
00:23:41
Speaker
and to promise to the client what's actually going to be happening during the work together. And then also probably the section that everybody reads talk about how this agreement gets canceled or terminated eventually. And then also on the flip side, that contract is there for you as the client to make sure that the service provider is actually going to do what they said they were going to do so you know exactly what it is that they're providing. And then the manner like how they actually are going to be providing this. Is there insurance behind them?
00:24:09
Speaker
Do they guarantee results for 14 days or if you're not happy with your landscaping or your brand or your copywriting, do you get revisions or do you get somebody to come back and fix your landscaping? Those are the things that are protective for the client. It really works from both sides. I just think everybody needs a contract. Even if you're selling a product, your contract isn't necessarily a client service agreement, but you have a terms and conditions policy on your website.
00:24:39
Speaker
That outlines what people can and cannot do on your website and what they can and cannot do with the images, the blog posts, the intellectual property you create. So any kind of trademarks that you have, names, logos, course names, things like that.
00:24:56
Speaker
And it's interesting what you're saying about, because as a business owner, I'm always thinking, when I think about contracts, I think about it in terms of how it's going to protect me, you know, how it's going to protect my business. And so, you know, like thinking about somebody coming in and cutting your yard, I wasn't even thinking about like, oh, how is their contract going to protect me? I'm just, I was just kind of stunned. Oh, they don't have a contract, you know, so what kind of protection do they have?
00:25:19
Speaker
But it's so I think this is a good segue into talking about contracts in terms of the client experience because I think we get worried at least at least we did when we first started like sending over contracts and sending over proposals and kind of worrying about how is going to be received or even everybody I think at some point is going to get questions about their contracts.
00:25:40
Speaker
So how can we make a contract work for us in our client experience instead of being something that we were fearful over?
Educating Clients on Contract Terms
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah, great question. Part of it is downloading the things that you guys have in your shop, which Davey's not paying me to say this, guys. But downloading things like client magazines and having client-specific pages on your website, maybe that are password-protected to help them
00:26:11
Speaker
maybe elevate the experience, make them feel a little exclusive. And I really like those ancillary products that supplement the contract for two reasons. One, it really helps your clients to feel loved on because they're getting this thing that you very, it's obvious that you took care and dedicated your time and resources to creating this for their benefit, just solely for their benefit. I mean, you don't need to know what a wedding day timeline is. You've done this 50 million times.
00:26:39
Speaker
But they've never gotten married before so to have like a client magazine or a page on their website Just for them. That's like hey welcome Eric and Kayla like we're so excited to shoot your wedding And you know here's what you can expect if you don't have the money to print this off or you know you're all digital That's what you do otherwise you have like a client magazine that you can send with a little gift ribbon whatever you want to do
00:27:02
Speaker
and the reason the reason these two that that's important is not just for that elevated experience but also for the second reason that I hadn't gotten to yet which is that it helps explain the terms in your contracts that are really really really important like the cancellation provision like what they can and can't do with their images like the amount of time you're gonna be available to work with them and not anymore because they're paying you for just a certain amount it reinforces all those things that are really really important but kind of
00:27:32
Speaker
suck to point out in your contract. So it's not that they're not in the contract. They're still in the contract, but you're just highlighting those things for the client in multiple places that it's more likely that they're going to be compliant. And then if there's ever something that's a problem, you can say, well, it's in your contract, but it's also here and here and here and here. And then they can't scapegoat you. They can't be mad at you as a service provider because they just
00:27:59
Speaker
didn't pay attention. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. I think it provides a great way for you to educate people in a different context. So instead of sending the contract over and being like, hey, just so you know, my engagement session, it lasts two hours, and at two hours and one minute, I'm out. The way that would come off would be much more antagonistic than just explaining the length of the engagement session within an engagement session guide.
00:28:25
Speaker
that kind of goes over, oh, this is why we keep the, or this is why engagement sessions generally last this long, and this is what you can expect, and so on and so forth, and this is what we would do in the event of weather, instead of highlighting those things in the contract where it almost seems a little bit abrasive that way, probably.
00:28:46
Speaker
Definitely 100% so one of the things that I think we I mean I was always certainly Worried about was getting questions about the contract And having especially not even things a lot. It wasn't even
00:29:01
Speaker
I mean, we are certainly we've certainly been asked in the past to take certain things out, especially when it comes to like, copyrights and stuff like that. And I'm talking about this in more in the context of our photography business, Kristy Jones Photography. But we've also been asked to add things to the contract, like specifying exactly who's going to be there on the day or, you know, stuff like that. So when you get questions from your client about a contract, especially in regards to removing a clause or adding a clause,
00:29:32
Speaker
Do you have advice for people on how to handle that? Yeah. Well, I can give general scenarios. I'm not going to give advice because I just don't know everybody's specific scenarios. I'm happy to talk about this generally and just give some information and background on it. When you make a change to your contract, it's called an amendment.
00:29:54
Speaker
Most contracts have some kind of way that you can amend a contract. Probably the most common way is just to have everybody's contact information in the contract and say that any kind of written correspondence or acceptance is acceptable. That's my favorite way to do it. People are kind of surprised, I think, because I think this amendment needs to be this big deal where you have something new signed or whatever. But that's not convenient for you. It's not convenient for your clients. And email to your client saying, hey, you wanted this thing and this thing and this thing.
00:30:24
Speaker
but this is now a part of our agreement. And then the client writes back says, yes, I would love that. Done. Contracts have ended. And that's allowed for in my templates, if you don't change them. And most other templates that I've seen have or contracts that I've seen have some kind of amendment provision like this. So yeah, I mean, if you are looking at adding something, I would ask like, what is the purpose? And is this previously covered in the contract maybe in different language?
00:30:53
Speaker
some kind of clarity of language that needs to happen and what's already existing because one of the things that can happen if you're making additions to a contract is you introduce ambiguity and ambiguity is just a fancy word for saying like you don't know what is the right way to go forward in a situation. So what I mean by that is typically I will see a lot of service providers have
00:31:18
Speaker
three or four cancellation provisions, and they just need the one, right? So you can break it down into different sections, but like, you don't need to have how the client can or can't cancel four times in your agreement. Having it four times doesn't make it any more like... Clear. It doesn't make it any more, yeah, it muddies the water a lot because you're like, which one of these four is going to apply now that I do have to cancel this contract?
00:31:44
Speaker
So it doesn't make it any more potent to put it in four times. It's much better to have it in there once, see it really, really clearly. There's no confusion, you know exactly how to cancel the contract or whatever the provision is at stake. And then that's it. So if you're adding something, I would look and see if it's already there to reduce the chances that you're going to muddy the waters and introduce that ambiguity. And maybe it's just a matter of adding more specificity if that's something you're comfortable with. As far as taking
00:32:15
Speaker
things out it's the same thing you're asking like what is the consequence of taking this out if I take this out worst case scenario like we flood the hotel and people fall out of the second floor windows and like worst case scenario how does this affect our arrangement and so you know I don't think that all client demands are unreasonable I will say that the majority of requests that I've seen like this are just kind of
00:32:44
Speaker
clients that are, what's the best way to say this? I'm just going to say it. Clients or usually it's their significant others who are insecure and trying to assert their
00:32:56
Speaker
I don't know, superiority, knowledge level, especially if lawyers are the worst. They always give me the most anxiety, you know, whenever we work with lawyers or whenever I get the email back that's like, hey, we'll get you the contract back. I just need to send it to my mom who's an attorney, you know, and then I'm thinking, oh, this is going to be a nightmare. Usually it's not, though. Usually it's not.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah. So I mean, lawyers are like, just be aware that they will always want to make changes because if there's one thing that lawyers hate, it's other lawyers. So they want to like assert that they know more than whoever drafted this contract and they're looking for any kind of thing to change or, um, especially I'm sorry, Davey, but I have noticed this more with guys, right? Like this, the fiance is like really protective. Um, and he's a law student and he wants to change. So,
00:33:42
Speaker
or the father of the bride that's also who I usually see doing this. So I think it's important, more importantly than the legal stuff, I think it's important to validate your client's concerns and just say, like, even if it's a horrible idea, huh, that's interesting. I'll look at that and let me see what I can work out. I don't generally like to introduce that there is an attorney on the back end, you know, even if you're bluffing, just because I think that, I mean, unless it's really necessary, which in,
00:34:12
Speaker
Hopefully in a client booking situation, I would run from a client where an attorney becomes necessary. But in that kind of situation, it's just, it introduces like a level of distrust. So, you know, I think to answer your question as succinctly as possible, I think, you know, whenever you're adding or subtracting, look at what the consequences are.
00:34:36
Speaker
Take that story, even if you believe it wholeheartedly, take that story that you're not capable of understanding contracts or legal things just because it's legal stuff. Take that story out of your head, remove yourself from that situation, even for like an hour or 20 minutes or whatever you have. Go through your contract and just ask yourself what the consequences are. And then, I mean, if you are lucky enough to have an attorney in your back pocket, you're married to one, your friend's one, whatever, sure, like ask them for a second opinion. I mean, it can't hurt.
00:35:05
Speaker
Or if you hire somebody, if this is a really big deal, that might be worth it. But yeah, I think just asking yourself what the consequence of, what does this document now look like with or without this addition or subtraction is the best thing that you can do. And then validating that client's concern is the second part of that. So even if it's the dumbest request ever, you're saying, that's really interesting. Let me look into that. That might be a good suggestion. I'm never saying outright, that's a great suggestion. Let me make it right away. I'm saying, hmm.
00:35:35
Speaker
What can we do here to make you happy and feel validated and secure? Because usually it's an issue of security, not your contract. Having confidence in your contract goes a long way. Like you said at the beginning of this interview, how you get confidence in your contract.
00:35:52
Speaker
One way is having an attorney create it, whether it's a template that was created by an attorney or whether you actually went and sat down with the attorney and they drafted something specific to your needs. What we found in the past is we won't ever alter our contract for anybody because we have a contract that was created based on what we need. And so there's really no reason to alter that. Most of the questions we get are around sharing images and who owns the images.
00:36:19
Speaker
So there's a lot of confusion around like, you know, like we still we were the ones that shot the images and own the images you but you can share them, you know, wherever you want. So there's some confusion around that. And I think that most of the time when we get on the phone with people and we explain that, even if they insist, in their opinion, that's not what the contract says, you know, we can point to other clients and be like, Listen, you can you're more than welcome to reach out to other clients, but they'll tell you we've never told them they can't.
00:36:45
Speaker
Download or share or have access to their images you know it's it's it's generally stuff like that and If somebody comes back and insists that we make a change to our contract We just don't take the client you know because at the end of the day. I think that's like a that's a huge red flag to me Yeah, it sucks not booking a client
00:37:03
Speaker
But at the end of the day, they're going to be, I think, most likely so miserable down the line. They're going to make you so miserable down the line that that contract just wasn't worth it to begin with, especially as, and you mentioned this as well, if that distrust is already there, if before you've ever worked with the client, there's already this argument about what should and should not be in a contract.
00:37:27
Speaker
So, you know, ditto to everything you said, and I think it's just important to have confidence in your contract, and how do you do that? Go get a contract that an attorney created. Are there any things, and you might not be able to answer this question, but are there things that should be in every contract? And I know that's a, you can't answer specifically because- No, it's fine. I'm happy. I actually have a resource for this, so I don't know- Okay, perfect.
00:37:56
Speaker
if we can put it in your show notes or something, or if I'm allowed to shout it out there, but. Oh, shout it out. Okay, cool, so Rock Solid Contract or rocksolidcontracts.com, Rock Solid Blueprint, they're all gonna get you to the same place, and it's a checklist that walks you through how to have a Rock Solid Contract, because not everybody can afford our templates, I get that, but I still want people to have access to the resources that are helpful for them, that they can maybe go through a contract that they've created or gotten from a friend,
00:38:23
Speaker
as long as that friend didn't buy our contract. No, just kidding. So yeah, that's just a resource that we have that's free that people can grab. And honestly, I'll leave it up for you guys, but it's not something that I'm promoting in other channels because it's such a great resource that people aren't buying our templates. So I'm like, I need to take this thing down.
00:38:46
Speaker
So that will go over that kind of outline, you know, what you should be looking for in your contract or what you should be putting in your contract. All right. So that's definitely a resource that we will link to in the show notes. And I encourage people, if you have questions and you don't have confidence in your in your contract, go there, check your contract against this checklist and see, you know, and so next time somebody asks you questions, you don't have to meet that with fear or anxiety, but you can have peace about that. Are there
00:39:12
Speaker
Are there certain mistakes that you see over and over again that people make with contracts that they should absolutely avoid? Yeah, how much time do we have? Okay, so here's like some quick wins for you guys. The biggest mistakes that I see are around numbers. Everybody tends to start out with this like 30 days from this date we will, this will happen or like 30 days prior to the event your last payments do.
00:39:40
Speaker
Those are really bad numbers to have in a contract, in my opinion, because it's not clear what 30 days means. So your wedding's on March 15th, and the contract says 30 days before, and you're like, wait a second, is it a leap year? Where is that in February? What date is my last payment due? Oh, crap, I'm on vacation, and I forgot to pay. It's just much easier when you have a date in there.
00:40:07
Speaker
Every template of mine, and I'm sorry for keep reference, but I mean, this is my frame of reference, but in my templates, I make sure that I have an example of a table, right? And so it's like this payment in this exact amount is due on this exact date. So that's an easy way to just have a quick win in your contracts. All the 30 days from date, 30 days prior to date, 120 days prior. Nobody wants to calculate that out. Does that include business days, holidays?
00:40:34
Speaker
just have the exact dates and then there's no ambiguity. Remember what we talked about? Erase that. It's somewhere where it's just super easy to do that and you don't have to have it. And so, you know, and people are always like, oh, what if I don't know the date? Okay, to be determined by date. So you have like a deadline to determine that date, if that makes sense. So, you know, because not every, you don't know everything as you get closer and closer to the end of a project, maybe. Other big mistakes I see is,
00:41:03
Speaker
having the wrong person or entity sign the agreement. So I worked with a lot of contractors and every time they always send me an agreement and they're like, this agreement is between such and such LLC and Christina Scalera. And I have to go back to them and I have to say, no, no, no, no, no. I am not my company. My company has to sign this agreement. And this is something that a lot of business owners, even advanced business owners, they make the mistake of.
00:41:29
Speaker
They're just like, whatever, I'll just sign personally. Well, now you're saying that you personally are responsible for whatever is happening. So if you're the service provider and you don't make good on the promises in your contract, that person, like worst case scenario, sues you or is threatening litigation or something. You're personally liable to pay that person back or to issue them a refund. If you don't have the money, it's your car, it's your house that's getting a lien against it.
00:41:59
Speaker
you entering into contracts personally is just, it's a bad idea. Um, so signing as your, your business is actually really, really easy. It's like I said, the, the, the byline, the beginning of the contract is such and such LLC enters into this agreement with instead of Christina's Galera, Christina's Galera LLC, because I was very creative when I titled my LLC. And then at the bottom of the contract, I'm signing my name as me personally.
00:42:28
Speaker
Underneath that, it says owner or principal comma Christina Scalera LLC because I have the authority to sign on behalf of my company.
Signing Contracts as a Business Entity
00:42:37
Speaker
Just like anybody else who's a principal out there of their own LLC or if they're sole proprietor, it doesn't really matter because there is no LLC to help you. I know we've had this talk a lot. Krista is the president of ours. She likes to remind me of that every time we sign a contract.
00:42:53
Speaker
Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be just the president or the principal. It could be any like managing member. So if you have it, basically you just have to have the authority to sign. So you have to be at least 18 mentally competent and then, you know, of significance in the company that you're making those kinds of decisions and can enter into agreements or, you know, both of the names of the or all three or four or whatever, however business owners are that can be listed on there. But that's kind of overkill.
00:43:22
Speaker
especially if they're signing on behalf of the company. So those are the two biggest mistakes. I see people making other mistakes I see people making. Do we have time for this?
00:43:30
Speaker
Yeah, as far as entity goes, I have a quick question about that. One thing we occasionally get is, oh, I'm gonna send this over, and this especially, I'm talking about in the context of our wedding photography business, the mom or the bride or dad of the bride, whoever wants to sign instead of the couple. How important is it that the bride, we always thought it was important that the bride signed it because we wanted to work with her. At the end of the day, it was her and her husband or fiance,
00:43:59
Speaker
that needed to be happy with the pictures and they were the people we wanted to work with. Is that the right move? Should you be concerned when the person you're working with is like, hey, let me get my parents to sign this. I'm glad you brought this up. One thing that we didn't talk about earlier in the lawnmower situation you gave was if there is no written contract,
00:44:24
Speaker
The default contract is whatever common law contract law in your state is. So there actually is still rules governing your service agreement. They just aren't decided by you and they probably aren't very beneficial to you or the client because they've been made in favor of public policy, generally not your specific situation. So when it comes to a situation like this, which is really, really common, I'm glad you brought this up,
00:44:52
Speaker
where the bride is the one who is signing and then you know mom or dad also wants to get their signature on it or you know that mom or dad is paying and you even though the bride and groom have signed you still know that the check it has mom or dad's name that's another situation where if if their name isn't on the contract if they don't have if you don't have their signature it can it can get really hairy because there's still a contract that's formed you're accepting the money you're cashing into your account
00:45:18
Speaker
There's an acceptance of an offer. You've offered to do wedding services, or you've offered to do wedding photography services. They've offered to pay you. That's an agreement. It's valid. And there is no contract that's governing that situation. And so a lot of people are really unhappy with this answer. But I didn't make it up. Don't shoot the messenger. But if there is an agreement in place, and there are no rules governing that because you just had Bright or Groom sign it,
00:45:46
Speaker
It doesn't mean that there's no agreement. It just means that there's nothing that you've done to solidify what the terms of that agreement
Getting All Parties to Sign Contracts
00:45:53
Speaker
are. So they could just stop paying and that might be totally okay. There might not be any remedy for you in your state and there's no contract there to overrule and override the rules of the state. So that's why the contract's really important. And as an attorney, I'm trying to get everybody possible to sign because that means that
00:46:11
Speaker
for every single signature that I get, that's more likely that I'm gonna be getting money at the end of the day. When bride and groom run out of money and mom and dad run out of money and father of the groom is finally the last one left there, it means you're still getting paid at the end of the day. Now, the flip side of that that you noted is that you're responsible for providing the services you've listed in your contract to everybody who signs. And so that can get really problematic when you have a pushy mom, a pushy mother-in-law, that kind of thing.
00:46:40
Speaker
going that are in conflict with the bride and the groom. And so, honestly, I wish I had a better answer for that, but that's going to be more like you finessing the relationship with the bride and groom, maybe having something in the contract, even about how they're your main point of contact.
00:47:00
Speaker
and mom and dad are gonna be left off of the email, specifically stating that. So the great thing about writing your own contract and having a contract that you're giving to your clients is that you get to make up the rules. And as long as the rules aren't anything illegal, right, like you can't make a contract to punch someone in the face, or like allow them to punch you in the face, that's an illegal act, you can't make a contract for that. As long as the rules aren't something that leads to illegal activity, they're mostly allowed. So, you know, you could have something in there about how, yeah, like you guys are all signing,
00:47:29
Speaker
But as far as communications go, mom or dad, you're going to be left off of everything except financial stuff. So that's the good thing about having a contract and not just they send you a payment and you show up and provide the service because there's nothing there governing that relationship. Does that answer the question? Yeah, absolutely. I think that answers it really thoroughly. Are there any other mistakes that we definitely have to know before signing off here?
Specificity in Contract Services
00:47:59
Speaker
I think just not being afraid to get really specific. So I said be specific with numbers, being specific with the services that you provide is also crucial. And a good example of this is I hired somebody to do Facebook ads for me last summer. And I won't name the company because I was not impressed. But they had a contract and it had like four parts of the service they were providing and it was really ambiguous. And at the end of the day,
00:48:28
Speaker
People were saying our ads were creepy and just all this stuff. I was very dissatisfied. And I said, by the way, you didn't fulfill this last third of the agreement. So I want a refund for that. And they said they did. And so it ended up being this whole dispute back and forth. And I'm not perfect. I was really excited to work with this ads agency to get the results that they were claiming they were getting for clients. And I signed the agreement. And it wasn't very specific, but it ended up working out
00:48:56
Speaker
in my favor, mostly because I'm an attorney honestly, but just that they weren't specific because I was able to say, well, you didn't provide this and here's how I think you didn't provide this. But if they were really specific as a service provider, one, it would have been more clear to me if they had or had not gotten results in that area. So I would have been probably more satisfied as a client.
00:49:21
Speaker
they had a better argument that they had provided exactly what they said they were going to provide for me. So really quickly, as before we wrap up, here's a good example of what I see a lot in contracts, because people are scared to get specific, they will put things like, you know, services provided, and then the bullet point lists out the services provided wedding day of wedding photography or day of wedding coordination. Then after that, it's like one assistant on wedding day, and then it's like, you know,
00:49:48
Speaker
what else am I forgetting, like off the top of my head as I'm trying to think about this example. But anyway, you guys can kind of see like these are very general things. And for a lot of us, we're like, listening out there, we're like, no, that's really specific. You said you're going to show up on the wedding day and you're going to provide an assistant. But what would be like more specific and probably better off for for both parties is to have something in there that says wedding photographer will be present from like time to time or be
00:50:17
Speaker
probably just hours, right? Like wedding photographer will be present for six hours. That way, if you're going over, right, if they say I want you here at 10am, and you are still there at 8pm, you can say when you're about to hit your six hours, you can you can say to them, Hey, like, we're right at our six hours. Are you okay with me staying? I'll have to invoice you. Or however you want to leave, you can probably say in a better way than that. But however you want to just kindly remind the client that
00:50:46
Speaker
Like you've hit your threshold. They've no longer paid for your time past this point. Um, and that's only possible when you're specific, because if you just said you'd show up on the wedding day, they're like, what do you mean you're here? Um, but when you, you say six hours on the wedding day, like it's very clear that you have been there from 10 o'clock to four o'clock in the afternoon. And it's now eight o'clock in the afternoon.
00:51:08
Speaker
are in the evening yeah for sure and i think that's true for i mean we found that i mean definitely in wedding photography because there is a lot of ambiguous about okay is that eight continuous hours or can you can i add like when you go eat dinner does does that count towards your eight hours so there is a lot of confusion there especially um on you know in davy and krista.com where we're doing a lot of
00:51:29
Speaker
custom brand and design and logo, you know, development, things like that. It's easy for work to creep into the scope of the project, you know? And all of a sudden, it's like, well, can I, you know, I guess I can do that one more thing. And then one more thing turns into 10 more things and it looks like a completely different project than when you started out.
00:51:47
Speaker
So I think especially, and we learned a lot of that the hard way, you know? So speaking of that second way to gain confidence through experience, but that's a tough way to learn, you know? Yeah, so just listing out the number of revisions that a client gets, even if you have to define what a revision is, and then putting on your Spidey Sense client's goggles and saying, someone who has never booked this service before, how are they reading this? Because, you know,
00:52:16
Speaker
I know when I first started, I thought web development and web design and branding were all the same thing. So I hired a firm for my yoga business and I'm like, what do you mean? I have to give you colors for this thing? Like, I don't know. You're the expert. Just make a brand. I don't care. And they were like, no, no, no, no. We're designing your website. Like, where's your branding? And I was like, I don't, you're, you're with my branding person. It just, I mean, totally didn't get it. Totally clueless. And what would have really helped me in that contract is to say,
00:52:45
Speaker
You know, um, one logo with three rounds of revision will be provided or whatever. So just getting really specific in that way is also helpful. Um, but that's also where a client magazine or a client page on your website comes in handy to where you walk them through the process. If it's getting a little onerous, right? Like condensing it down to the most concise, like shortest, easiest way to say it in the contract.
00:53:08
Speaker
And then going bigger and explaining more in the non-legally binding document, like timelines are probably not a good idea to have in a contract. It might be a good idea to say you're providing one and it would be providing my date, but that might be something better suited for their specific client portal or website that you have where you can
00:53:31
Speaker
tweak it and you're not legally bound to it where they can't say like, you didn't show up exactly at four and start shooting at 415. Like you said you would on your contract timeline. Um, I was there for 20 cause you told me later. So that's the kind of stuff that is. And again, I'm not trying to like overwhelm people. I think, um, like if, if anybody takes anything away from, from contracts and this talk that we've had here today, I really hope it's that you get out there and you just start trying it.
00:53:57
Speaker
Because if you never get started, if you never start trying this stuff, you never will understand it. You never will feel confident with it. So, you know, even if some of this is like in over your head, listen to this interview again. Um, you know, keep, keep pursuing it for, for me, like contracts for most people, this is how I think they feel for me. That's like funnels, right? It's taken me two years to figure out how to make a stupid funnel.
00:54:21
Speaker
And I just kept at it. Even though they were intimidating and scary and I was messing up and nothing was working and I was making a fool of myself, I just kept at it. And now I feel like I have a really finely tuned process. So the same can be said for you with contracts.
00:54:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's great advice. I also think that our perception, we have a harder perception of ourself while we're going through things that we're not comfortable with than others actually do of ourself. And going back to that webinar that you did way back when it seems like for the Rising Tide Society on this same topic to us and to people listening, I'm sure we were taking notes the entire time.
Continuous Client Education on Contracts
00:55:00
Speaker
And you might have been thinking to yourself, man, my sales pitch was not very good.
00:55:04
Speaker
but but you're probably the only person thinking that maybe maybe there's one person out there but it's again I think our perception of ourselves especially when we're doing something uncomfortable is just a lot tougher than others so I think that's great advice and I also really you know just to reiterate what you're saying about educating your clients through things like client magazines and resources like that that your clients get and then don't feel like you said it once so you you can't say it again and
00:55:32
Speaker
I think that's something that I've been telling a lot of people we work with lately, which is, hey, if this is important for your clients to know, you can blog about it more than once in your life. Because that blog post you wrote three years ago, no one can find that unless they're searching specifically for it or its ranking or whatever in Google. But again, still, it's worth saying again, and it's worth saying in different ways just so that people get the point.
00:56:00
Speaker
It's so true. Can I tell a quick little story? Absolutely. We have time. Okay, cool. So in my my service based business is a law firm, spoiler alert. And anyway, so in my law firm, I do mostly just trademark trademark registrations, prosecution, that kind of thing. So anyway, when you register trademark, you get these crazy looking invoices that look very real. And they're all like, your foreign registration is pending, you just have to pay $900 and it'll be on your doorstep.
00:56:28
Speaker
They look super real and it's really funny because the government has zero sense of humor But the USPTO the United States patent trademark office actually made a video about these notices and they did it in like the onion style It's so it's actually funny. I'm like how what? They're also the only profitable government entity that I know of so anyway, that's probably how they did it but that's an aside anyway The story really is that I tell my clients when I before I register their trademark
00:56:58
Speaker
About these invoices that are coming these fake invoices. I tell them right after we have applied for their trademark I tell them in our monthly newsletter. I tell them when they call me I tell them when they you know on their initial client consult. This is a possibility I tell them in like four or five different places, and you know what email I get every single week. Oh my gosh Christina. I just got this invoices crazy I don't have $2,000 to spend on a foreign register. I'm like
00:57:23
Speaker
throw it out, it's spam, and it's just so true. People are not paying attention as closely as you think they are, even if you're putting it in bold, in orange highlighter text in front of their face, which I am doing. So, it's both encouraging and it can be a little bit discouraging, but I think the moral of the story is just keep, and for SEO purposes, keep putting it out there, jeez. Yeah, for sure, keep creating that content.
00:57:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, listen, rockstylecontracts.com, thecontractshop.com. And then where can we find you on social media and anywhere else you are outside of on the slopes out west? Yeah, you can't. No, I'm just kidding. I've been really bad at social media lately. But if you guys really want to follow me, it's at Christina Scalera on all the platforms or The Contract Shop on all the platforms.
00:58:14
Speaker
There's both so we would love it if you would just give the contract shop a little love on Facebook like our page Give us little comments something like that But but yeah, that's probably the the best way to interact with us or just write us a message We love talking to people. There's a big old chat box on the contract shop calm and it's for that purpose because I just I'm back there looking at everybody's questions comments concerns and creating content for for what they write in about so yeah, that's the best way to get in touch and
00:58:42
Speaker
and her newsletter via the contract shop. I don't know if you have any other newsletters, but the newsletter I enjoy. I feel like it usually comes out on Fridays, right? And they are, they're funny. I mean, they're great content too, but they're also enjoyable to read. Well, thank you.
00:59:00
Speaker
All right, well, like I said, we're going to have to have you get back because we have a thousand other things that I really want to ask you about. And as I say so many times to, you know, just one of the reasons I started a podcast is just a great excuse to sit down with people like yourself who I really enjoy learning from. So thank you for sharing your expertise and time with us today. And I hope to have you on again soon. Yeah, thanks, Davey.
00:59:28
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Brands That Book Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast on iTunes and leaving a review so that others are more likely to find it. For show notes and other resources, visit avianchrista.com.