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E191: Charlie Brandt
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Even veteran law enforcement were both shocked and disgusted by the gruesome sight of the three bodies discovered on September 13, 2004 in the home of Michelle Jones in Maitland, Florida. Despite the bloodiness of the scene, it was clear who the perpetrator was. What is unclear is whether the crime could have been prevented had different actions been taken years prior.
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Transcript
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Join Patreon for Exclusive Content
00:01:31
Speaker
Happy Thursday, Sleuthhounds. Allison here. You know, Maggie and I talk a lot on the show about our Patreon and the bonus content that you can find there.
00:01:41
Speaker
but it's hard to know if something's worth paying for if you don't know what it's like. So even though you can join our Patreon for only $5 a month, we wanted to share a small taste of the episodes that are found there.
Introduction to 'Coffee and Cases' Podcast
00:01:53
Speaker
That way, if you like what you hear, you can head on over to join at patreon.com forward slash coffee and cases. So without further ado, here is our full Patreon episode from last December.
00:02:41
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams.
Debate on the Death Penalty
00:02:48
Speaker
And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:02:50
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:03:19
Speaker
Obviously with the nature of the show, we talk a lot about murderers and even at times, three named serial killers. We also talk a lot about
Recidivism and Imprisonment Effectiveness
00:03:33
Speaker
justice and punishment. And I'll be honest, I'm personally quite torn on the topic of the death penalty. Oh, me too. Yeah.
00:03:44
Speaker
I understand that the cost of life imprisonment is high, like the logical part of me understands that. On the ethical side, I personally question whether it's right to take a life just based on whether I feel it's justified. As a religious person, does that make me a murderer too? And then I also think this is kind of like a little cynical, but I also think
00:04:16
Speaker
Are we better to, like, do they pay more if they have to live their life thinking about what they did? Oh, right, as a punishment? Is that worse? Yeah, than the chair.
00:04:31
Speaker
the rhyme of the ancient mariner. Did you ever have to read that in any of your English classes? It's a Samuel Taylor Coleridge poem, and this mariner shoots an albatross and he has to wear it around his neck.
00:04:47
Speaker
Anyway, all the other people on the ship are taken by death, but he has life in death, meaning he feels like death, but he can never die.
The Case of Charlie Brandt Begins
00:05:00
Speaker
And so that's, I guess, what you were kind of getting at, which is worse. And, you know, the emotional side of me too, I understand that if somebody hurt my little sleuth hound, some part of me would want them to suffer. Oh, yeah.
00:05:14
Speaker
And so I think that's why I'm really torn. So I see all sides of it. But in terms of the topic of this Patreon case, I actually got a little curious and I looked up some statistics that I actually, when I looked them up, found quite shocking.
00:05:32
Speaker
So I wanted to find what the recidivism rate is on murderers. So how likely is it that someone who has previously committed first degree murder will go on to murder again if they were released?
00:05:51
Speaker
Right, so if they didn't face the death penalty, if they were released back into society, how likely is this? The social sounds, recidivism, the recidivism is that Alison just said, literally means the tendency of a convicted criminal to reoffend. So for those of us that don't know big words like she does, that's what. So yeah, I was curious, how likely is it that if they were released,
00:06:19
Speaker
that they would murder again. And the statistics from the United States show that murderers actually have the lowest rate of recidivism of all released offenders at less than 2%. OK. I found that shocking. But then I was thinking, OK, this is my logical brain. I'm thinking, is there a reason? So I think to myself, well,
00:06:48
Speaker
maybe that number is skewed because maybe the ones who get released are the ones who killed because of negligence, like drunk driving or something like that, and not premeditated murder, right? So then I was thinking, okay, that would make the percentage small. Or maybe those who were released were accessories, but not the main offender.
00:07:11
Speaker
Those are the things that are going through my mind, because I was trying to explain to myself why it would be so low. But then I actually found some statistics from the US Department of Justice, the Bureau of Justice Statistics from 2016, that states the following two pieces of information. Number one, quote, 96% of violent offenders released in 2016, including 70%
00:07:37
Speaker
of those sentenced for murder or non negligent manslaughter served less than 20 years before initial release from state prison.
00:07:49
Speaker
So it's not just the negligent murderers, those who murder by drunk driving or something like that, who are getting released, who are then going on to only recommit a crime or murder again at that less than 2%. These are people who premeditated. Like hard criminals. Yeah, they're murder and 70%
00:08:17
Speaker
are serving less than 20 years before an initial release. But this will be like not people that, cause sometimes the judge can say like you have no possibility of parole. So not those people, right? Apparently those are few and far between because the second piece of information I found was it said that persons who were sentenced for murder, for murder,
00:08:47
Speaker
serve an average of 15 years before their first release. Okay. Part of me is like, excuse me. That's insane to me. But then another part of me is like, I guess that's the whole debate of, you know, are we there to rehabilitate? Yeah.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, it said that only 30% of murderers actually served 20 years or longer. So apparently that 2% statistic should be reassuring, right? Because apparently it includes almost all murderers, you know, 70% of them.
00:09:30
Speaker
But scared because I feel like your case is going to be about somebody who killed someone, went to jail, got out and killed somebody again. Okay. So we are going to talk about somebody who would fit into
Charlie's Violent Acts Revealed
00:09:45
Speaker
that 2%. Oh, so buckle up. We are going to be in for a long ride that actually spans more than 30. Wow. This is the story of Carl who went by Charlie Brandt.
00:10:00
Speaker
And due to the gruesome details and crimes in this case, listener discretion is strongly advised. This is not the episode to listen to with children around.
00:10:14
Speaker
I'm going to be honest with you. My brain today is so fried. We just recorded one of my regular episodes on coffee and cases. And Alison's got about a million and 50 edits to make because my brain is so fried. I literally read his name as Charlie Brandon. Yeah, no, it's B-R-A-N-D-T. It's fine Maggie. It'll be okay. Okay.
00:10:43
Speaker
So it was late August, early September, 2004 in Big Pine Key, Florida, which is an island that is part of the Florida Keys. Sounds so good. I know. It sounds amazing right now. It's nearly all the way down to Key West.
00:11:02
Speaker
which is the southernmost point of the United States. So it was only about, Big Pine Key is about a 40 minute drive north of Key West. That's awesome. But one of the dangers of living in the Florida Keys and on an island is the weather. And the news was filled with reports of the incoming Hurricane Ivan that was to hit where Charlie Brandt and his wife Terry lived.
00:11:32
Speaker
So, I do not do hurricanes. That, mmm, mmm. What's the hurricane? I've been a big hurricane. Oh yeah, it was.
00:11:41
Speaker
So Charlie and Terry, they made preparations to stay safe from the storm. Charlie meticulously cut boards for the windows and doors to protect the home. We've all seen the pictures right of the boarded up homes. And when I say meticulous, I mean that each individual board was cut precisely to the size that it needed to be with perfect circles going around the doorknobs.
00:12:08
Speaker
Wow, so this wasn't a hurried, you know, let's bang up some boards overlapping each other meticulous Charlie and Terry had already packed some clothes and they had made plans to make the drive to Orlando or the Orlando area.
00:12:25
Speaker
where they would stay with Terry's niece, Michelle Lynn Jones, for a few days. Let's go to Disney Disney, see Mickey Minnie. Have you seen that TikTok? No. Oh, OK. I was going to say, I do not even know what that is. Yeah.
00:12:42
Speaker
But maybe our listeners do. So they were going to stay with Terry's niece, Michelle, for a few days to kind of ride out the storm. And Terry was actually extremely close to her niece, Michelle. They visited with each other often with either Charlie and Terry going to Michelle, Michelle coming to see them. So Michelle was quick to open her home to her family. Michelle, a single 37-year-old executive with the Golf Channel,
00:13:10
Speaker
was also extremely close with her mother, who was Terry's sister, Mary Lou. And she was very, I know, it is very cute. And Michelle was very close to her friends. So she would talk on the phone with her mom and her friends every day or nearly every day.
00:13:30
Speaker
And Charlie and Terry, who again, all of Michelle's friends were familiar with because of previous visits, arrived on September 2nd and had stayed several days with Michelle.
00:13:45
Speaker
Charlie initially hadn't wanted to stay very long. He just wanted to, you know, stay long enough until Hurricane Ivan had passed. There was no longer any potential danger and then was wanting to kind of get back and see what, if any, damage had been done to their home. However, on September 13, 2004,
00:14:08
Speaker
Charlie had insisted that the two of them stay just one more night with Michelle before heading home.
00:14:16
Speaker
Oh no, I don't feel like this is going to end very good for Michelle. It's not. Their bags, which were already packed, were placed by the door for the next morning. On that evening of the 13th, one of Michelle's friends, Lisa Emmons, was going to come over and visit with all of them. So she had already planned on coming over, but Michelle called her
Family Secrets and Violent Past
00:14:37
Speaker
to say, I don't know if it's going to be such a good idea, because Charlie and Terry are still here. They've had too much to drink.
00:14:45
Speaker
And they were arguing. So this is probably not the best atmosphere to enter into. That's so awkward too. That's awkward for Michelle. Right. So her friend Lisa agrees and didn't come over. It was also that evening that Michelle stopped answering her phone.
00:15:07
Speaker
After two days had passed with no communication from Michelle, her friends were obviously worried. But it was when they heard from Michelle's mom Mary Lou that she too hadn't heard from her daughter.
00:15:22
Speaker
That Michelle's friend, oh yeah, Michelle's friend Debbie Knight said, you know what, I'm going to go to Michelle's home to check. And Michelle and her friends, you know, I said they were extremely close. They had actually exchanged house keys with one another. So Debbie came armed with a key.
00:15:39
Speaker
And she was actually on the phone with Michelle's mom, Mary Lou, when she arrived. But for some reason, the key that Debbie had, it wasn't working on the front door. So Debbie went around to the garage door and the garage door was almost all glass. So she was able to see into the garage. However, what she saw Maggie was an image that would
00:16:07
Speaker
she would never be able to erase from her mind. There in the garage, between the vehicles, was Charlie Brandt hanging from the rafters. Okay, not really how I thought this was gonna go. Well, it gets worse. Since there was a ladder nearby, it looked like Charlie had used a bed sheet to commit suicide.
00:16:34
Speaker
So obviously Debbie is traumatized. So she immediately calls law enforcement and obviously she didn't take a foot, take another step into the house. And Maggie, it was a good thing that she didn't because what she saw was nothing compared to what was inside the home.
00:16:55
Speaker
What was inside was even enough to make seasoned law enforcement officers run back outside to vomit. Oh no. After seeing, just as Debbie had, Charlie Brandt's decomposing body, they entered, law enforcement did, to next see Terry Brandt's body slumped over. And this is the ant, right?
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, this is Charlie's wife, Terry. It's Michelle's aunt. Her body slumped over on the couch. Terry had been stabbed in the chest seven times. Terry had some defensive wounds on her left hand that made it appear as though she had fought with her killer, according to the sheriff's report. But it was Michelle's murder that was unlike anything officers had ever seen.
00:17:51
Speaker
Michelle had one stab wound to the chest. Then, based on the evidence, her clothing had been removed and placed in the bathroom sink. Okay, so she's been stabbed in the chest, then shook her naked, and put her clothes in the bathroom sink. Correct. Was she dead from the one stab wound? Yes, she was.
00:18:16
Speaker
Then the killer took time dismembering Michelle's body. She had been decapitated and her head placed beside of her body with her hair having been brushed away from her face. Her breasts had been cut off.
00:18:39
Speaker
Her chest had been cut open with meticulous precision and her heart had been cut out. Well, I already know, even if I didn't know that this is a solved case so we know who did this, I already know it was Charlie because you said meticulous precision. And that's the same thing he did with the boards on their house.
00:19:03
Speaker
So her heart had been meticulously cut out, she had additionally been disemboweled, and her left leg had been cut off.
00:19:16
Speaker
oddly also cut were all of Michelle's Victoria's Secret bras and panties, and they were strewn across the floor of her bedroom. But the house had been locked from the inside. And other than the cut up underwear on the floor of Michelle's bedroom, there was no indication of a struggle.
00:19:37
Speaker
When Michelle's mom and Terry's sister, Mary Lou, first heard of the crime and the belief that Charlie could have been responsible, she actually found it hard to fathom. She had known him for 17 years. So she's thinking, wouldn't there have been some sort of indication that he was capable of this? I'm kind of anxious to see
00:20:02
Speaker
where this 2% thing comes in. Yeah, but for all intents and purposes, the people who knew Charlie, they were like, okay, he's eccentric, he's quirky, but nobody could believe what they were being told. Wasn't he super close to Michelle? Oh, yeah. He was extremely close, and his wife was, so they were visited all the time.
00:20:31
Speaker
So even though friends and family were like, there's no possibility that Charlie could have done this, law enforcement lead investigator Rob Hemmert believed right away that Charlie had committed the murders and then committed suicide. And he believes that Charlie actually killed his wife first so he could kind of
00:20:53
Speaker
remove her from the equation, kind of get her out of the way so he could take time in the murder and dismemberment of his niece, Michelle. When Harry's murder was super Oh, yeah, sevens bad boys. Yeah. Yeah. When he finished the mutilation of Michelle, which again, took some time, he had changed his own clothes, leaving the bloody ones on the floor by the bed in Michelle's bedroom. And according to one source had even showered
00:21:23
Speaker
before hanging himself in the garage. And isn't murder, suicide really rare? Yeah. And that act, it's almost like he's cleansing himself first. He feels like he is. It's really bizarre. But based upon the crime scene and the bags that were sitting in the front hall,
00:21:44
Speaker
Because remember, they had planned on leaving the next morning. Yeah, and he said, let's stay one more night. Right. Yeah, along with that news from a friend that they had decided to stay that one additional night at Charlie's insistence, that's what led that investigator Hemmert to comment, quote, there was no reason for them to stay behind. The hurricane had passed, so he chose to stay for a reason.
00:22:09
Speaker
I think that was because he knew what he was going to do. So they don't think that he got drunk and did it? They think that he had planned on doing it before getting drunk with Terry? Correct. Just because of that news that they got that he insisted that they stay another night. And even though she said that they were drunk and arguing,
00:22:33
Speaker
I think maybe the detective is thrown off by how meticulous that dismemberment was to think maybe he wasn't as drunk as it appeared.
Charlie's Violent Teenage Years
00:22:47
Speaker
But here's where we're going to get into that 2%. It was when someone very specific showed up at the police station that law enforcement began to understand that their hunch that it was Charlie was right.
00:23:04
Speaker
That person was Charlie's sister, Angela, who told law enforcement that she was terrified of her brother. And boy, did she have a story to tell. So let me tell a little bit of the background. Charlie was born in 1957.
00:23:23
Speaker
to Herbert and Ilse Brandt, who were both German immigrants. His parents had actually originally moved to Texas when they came to the US. They later moved the growing family to Connecticut. Charlie's father worked for international harvester. And as he kind of worked his way up from laborer to project engineer, as a result of those position changes up the career ladder, the Brandt family ended up moving more than once.
00:23:52
Speaker
So it was almost as though every time he got a promotion, they had to move. They moved. Yeah. And that caused the two oldest children, Angela, who was the oldest child, and Charlie, the second child, to frequently have to change schools. By September 1968, the family had moved again to Fort Wayne, Indiana, when Herbert was actually transferred to a plant there for his job.
00:24:19
Speaker
So by 1971, Angela and Charlie actually had two younger sisters and their mom was eight months pregnant with child number five. That was due in February of 1971. So we're in January 1971 at this story that Angela is telling them.
00:24:42
Speaker
The family had just returned from a trip to Florida, which was a favorite vacation spot of theirs. And they had a wonderful time other than the one unfortunate incident during a hunting trip when Charlie's dad had shot the family dog. I know. Well, one source made it seem as though the death of the dog was a hunting accident. Like the dog was in a thicket and he shot into the thicket and it hit the dog.
00:25:10
Speaker
But another source claimed that the dog was extremely ill and was suffering and that his father Herbert had killed the dog to put it out of its misery.
00:25:23
Speaker
Other way, traumatizing. Yeah, difficult event to process. Yeah. Charlie, who was 13 at the time, was a quiet kid. He had some trouble adjusting, obviously, with all these moves. And as a result, he was very shy. But he always did well in school. He was known as a mama's boy. He was very close to her. And he would often be put in charge of babysitting his two younger sisters because he was pretty responsible.
00:25:52
Speaker
On January 3rd, 1971, something seemed to snap in Charlie, however. Okay, so we're at the age of 13. At the age of 13. We have a change, a shift. Yes. January 3rd had been an uneventful day. The family had gotten home and all of them were getting ready for bed. It was around 9 or 10 PM.
00:26:17
Speaker
The two youngest girls were actually already fast asleep. 15 year old Angela was in her room reading a book.
00:26:26
Speaker
and Herbert and Ilse were in the bathroom. Herbert was shaving. One source said he was actually reading Shakespeare to his wife, which sounds super romantic to me. While Ilse was actually taking a nice long soak in the bath, which I'm sure was nice at eight months pregnant to get that soak in. But there was a knock at the bathroom door. It was Charlie.
00:26:49
Speaker
Oh God. Angela heard her father's voice say something like, Charlie don't or Charlie stop before hearing a gunshot. Angela then heard her mother yell, Angela call the police before hearing several shots. Before she knew it, her brother Charlie was standing in her bedroom doorway.
00:27:16
Speaker
Gun now pointed straight at Angela. She heard the click as he pulled the trigger, but the gun was out of ammunition.
Psychiatric Evaluation Challenges
00:27:29
Speaker
Charlie then came into the room and attempted to strangle Angela. Oh no. She was begging him to stop. She said that he seemed almost to be in a trance- Yeah, I think he was possessed.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yeah, she kept trying to calm Charlie down and saying like, let me help you figure out what to do. And she was continually repeating, don't you know how much I love you? I love you, Charlie. And she said, eventually his eyes looked normal to her again, as though the trance had been broken. Did she get in the 911 call or did he come in before she called 911? He came in before she called 911. But now she's thinking, okay, I've broken this trance, but obviously,
00:28:13
Speaker
you know, he just shot our parents. Yeah. So she's thinking, okay, I've got to get him off of me. So she manages to get him off of her. And then she's thinking, okay, I've got to distract him. Like I need to, you know, be able to escape. So she tells him to go get some blankets.
00:28:29
Speaker
Right. So she says like, and I'm sure he's not thinking at this point. So she says, Charlie, go get some blankets. And while he was distracted with that task, she ran. She ran down the stairs. She ran out the door. She ran to the first house that she came to banging on the door, ringing the doorbell, trying to get help.
00:28:49
Speaker
And when that door wasn't opened immediately, she looked back at her house and saw that Charlie had come out of the house and was coming toward her. So she ran to the next house. So as she's knocking on the door of that second house, Charlie actually went to that first house and also knocked on the door. And at about the same time, the door Angela was knocking on opened and the door that Charlie knocked on opened.
00:29:19
Speaker
Angela told that neighbor what had happened and Charlie actually admitted to the first neighbor, quote, I just shot my mom and dad. So of course the neighbors called the police and what they came to find out was that Charlie had taken the revolver from his parents dresser and had shot his father in the back.
00:29:46
Speaker
before turning the gun and unloading the rest of the ammunition on his mother. Instantly killing, yeah, both his mother and the unborn fetus. And which is also kind of crazy because he was a mama's boy, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. My daughter and I love smoothies, but what we don't love are smoothie bar prices. With our Blenja 2 Portable Blender, we can make smoothie bar quality drinks for a fraction of the price.
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00:34:06
Speaker
Charlie's father was still alive. He had shot his father in the back, but it wasn't a fatal shot. And on the way to the hospital, Herbert kept repeating, quote, I don't know why my son did this. I have no idea as to why my son did this, end quote. So those statements confirmed everything that the police needed to know. 13-year-old Charlie Brandt had
00:34:29
Speaker
killed his mom and the baby she carried and had attempted to murder his father and his sister.
00:34:38
Speaker
But he didn't even do anything to the two younger ones, right? Correct. Correct. And I don't know if that's just because Angela was able to kind of break the trance. You know what I mean? Like, had there been ammunition and he killed Angela, would he have gone after them next? I feel like this was who Michael Myers was based off of and I want to Google it now.
00:35:00
Speaker
I know. So after the shooting and with no doubt that Charlie had committed the crime, now was the time to determine obviously what punishment would be appropriate. Right. Yeah. Charlie actually told his sister Angela that he had no memory of what he had done.
00:35:20
Speaker
And he told evaluators that, quote, everything sort of snapped in my mind. I felt like I never felt before, end quote. Charlie even told a judge, quote, I didn't really want to. It was like I was sort of programmed. I hesitated. But the next thing I knew, I'd shot them. Yeah, he was possessed.
00:35:43
Speaker
So here's what's crazy to me and scary. Charlie underwent three separate psychiatric evaluations and none of them, none could determine what had triggered him to commit such an act. He was possessed by the devil. Yeah, because they weren't able to diagnose
00:36:03
Speaker
anything wrong with Charlie. He needed some holy water. Yeah, that's exactly what he needed. And they were not able to come up with any motivation to explain the murders. One psychiatrist, Ronald Penkner, stated, quote, basically, I was looking for mental illness, and he wasn't showing the signs and symptoms of serious mental illness, which I thought was what the court wanted to know, end quote.
00:36:27
Speaker
He went on to say, quote, this kid did well in school. He didn't get into any trouble. He loved his family, he said. And the family said that he was a loving kid, you know? So there wasn't anything to diagnose. We found no psychosis, no distorted thinking that would basically be a reason for this crime to be done, end quote.
00:36:50
Speaker
Wow. And when this doctor was asked what potentially could have caused Charlie to snap and become murderous, Pankner said, quote, we don't know. End quote.
00:37:05
Speaker
that is scary. Wow. Yeah. Just like a light switch. And since at 13, he was too young to be charged and tried for murder under Indiana state law, he was sent to a psychiatric hospital to continue treatment and investigation into the case while it deemed that Charlie couldn't be tried for it or shouldn't be tried for it. That was a ruling
00:37:30
Speaker
be a grand jury, that grand jury who said, no, he's too young to be tried for this murder. They did add a written and extremely ominous warning to their ruling saying that Charlie should seek help because this type of behavior could repeat itself in the future. And it turns out, as we know, they were right.
Did Terry Know Charlie's History?
00:37:56
Speaker
So did Terry, Michelle, Michelle's mom, they didn't know this about him. Okay. So here is where probably what came next would be one of the most controversial acts of everything that I'm going to talk about. So after spending only one year psychiatric hospital, Charlie Brandt was released back into his father's custody.
00:38:24
Speaker
in June, 1972, but like, I mean, I don't, I don't have kids. So I don't know, but I think I would be like, I don't want, like, I don't know. Is your love that unconditional for your kid?
00:38:42
Speaker
Right. But if you know that they've killed your wife. Yeah. And they tried to kill you. And your daughter. I know. Unless you truly believe that, you know, it was something like a possession or something like, you know what I mean? And that you can get help, but then you would think you would go ahead and continue to seek help. But once Charlie's father got him back in his custody from there, the Brandt family never again even spoke
00:39:11
Speaker
of what happened that night, nor Charlie's role in it. He never received treatment. He didn't go to counseling. He didn't see a therapist. Nope. And they didn't talk about it ever.
00:39:28
Speaker
Soon after Charlie went back into his father's care, the family moved to Ormond Beach, Florida to a place where no one would know what had happened in their family nor judge Charlie for that crime. And based on, yeah. Which I know this is a different time and Google wasn't a thing, but you better believe like when I talked to a guy, I Googled them.
00:39:59
Speaker
Well, herein lies the problem. So based on the jury's words, obviously, Charlie should have been under intense supervision and have had continued mental health supports. But in 1973, Charlie's father, who had remarried by that point, moved back to Indiana with the two youngest children and left Angela and Charlie in the care of their grandparents.
00:40:24
Speaker
Okay, well, even more trauma. That's great. And yeah, when I say that the family kept the secret of that night. Are you telling me his grandparents didn't know? I don't know if the grandparents didn't know.
00:40:38
Speaker
But I do know that the two youngest siblings, the two daughters who were asleep that night, did not know what had happened. They believed as they had been told by their father that their mother had died in a car accident.
00:40:57
Speaker
instead of telling them the truth. And of course, here's the problem. You were talking about searching people, but because of Charlie's age and back with trial, those records of that January 9th, 1971 were sealed. So no one would ever know. Oh my, that's so scary. So, and here's the thing. It seemed,
00:41:21
Speaker
as though maybe Charlie's crime had been just a temporary snap. You know, how many of us right now are sitting here listening to this thinking, how well do I know? Yeah. Yeah. Because so after that initial crime, you know, it, it almost seemed as though, you know, maybe this was just a, a collapse and he's better.
00:41:49
Speaker
because Angela and Charlie's time with her grandparents seemed typical. Angela's first husband, Jim, actually spent lots of time with Charlie in the 1980s. And even though Angela had told Jim of the murder,
00:42:03
Speaker
Charlie, to him, also seemed to have adjusted. Jim went so far as to say of Charlie that, quote, he was so gentle that when there was a bug in the house, he would refuse to step on it and carry it outside, end quote. Wow. That was the Charlie that Jim came to know. And again, I said he was considered quirky by a lot of people who knew him, but most people shared that he was this really likable guy.
00:42:33
Speaker
In 1984, Charlie got a degree in electronics. He was a radar specialist. And in 1986, he married his then girlfriend Teresa, who went by Terry.
00:42:45
Speaker
And Jim, by this point, he was no longer married to Angela, had actually been the one who introduced Charlie and Terry because Charlie had asked Jim if he knew of any women to set him up on a date with and about the same time Jim's then girlfriend mentioned she had a friend named Terry who was looking to be set up on a date. So they were like, what a coincidence, let's do this. And Charlie and Terry's relationship actually developed quickly and they soon decided to get married.
00:43:14
Speaker
Both Angela and Jim urged Charlie to tell Terry about his past before they got married that she deserved to know.
Links to Unsolved Murders
00:43:24
Speaker
And he told them that he had let Terry know of his past, but we don't know if he actually ever did. No family members were invited to the wedding.
00:43:39
Speaker
Jim believed himself that Charlie did confide in Terry because he had asked Terry at one point when he said, you know, when are you and Charlie going to have kids? And that Terry made a comment like considering everything, I don't think that that's a good idea. So Jim assumed by that comment that she knew that she knew. But in hindsight, I mean, that comment could have been about anything like, well, considering how much he works,
00:44:08
Speaker
or considering our financial situation. I mean, it could be anything.
00:44:13
Speaker
A few years after they were married, Charlie and Terry moved to their beach home in Big Pine Key, Florida in 1989. And by all accounts, their marriage seemed to have been a strong one, even the envy of others. Terry's best friend, Melanie Fisher, even noted, quote, if my husband could love me one third the amount that Charlie loved Terry, I'd be the luckiest woman in the whole world, end quote.
00:44:40
Speaker
except she ended up dead, so. Yeah, the two were never known to argue or to get angry with one another. Basically, people were like, neither one of them have a temper. They held hands always. Alice Francis, who lived across the street from Charlie and Terry, she said of Charlie, quote, he not only loved that woman, he worshiped her, end quote. And her husband added, quote, anything she wanted done, it was done, end quote.
00:45:10
Speaker
They seemed so in love to those who were looking at their marriage that it was almost sickening Maggie. Like they even made each other's lunch every day because they said it tasted better when it was made by someone who loves you. Wow. There was only one indication of trouble in their relationship. And it happened in 1989, right after a local woman had been killed.
00:45:36
Speaker
Charlie had come home that evening late with blood on his clothes. Oh no. Terry had confided in Jim that she wondered whether Charlie was involved. Of course, this conversation is per Jim's recollection. He remembers Terry wondering if she should call the sheriff.
00:45:56
Speaker
However, Charlie, when he was asked about the blood, had told her that he had gotten bloody from filleting the fish that he caught, because he would go out fishing all the time. But here's the thing, if Terry did actually suspect Charlie of being capable of committing the crime, she never brought it up again, nor gave any indication to anybody else. Was that crime solved? Well, we're going to get to that crime.
00:46:21
Speaker
So it seems as though his explanation calmed her fears. And it actually wasn't until the murder-suicide in 2004 that Charlie was even on anybody's radar, save for his own sisters. Because she and her dad and Jim are the only ones who know what happened.
00:46:44
Speaker
So when she came to police, when Angela did, she let them know that she still feared for her own life with Charlie. She later confided to Michelle's mother, Mary Lou, that she had been so afraid of Charlie that for more than 20 years after that first murder, she wouldn't go to bed with the air conditioner on. Because then it might be too loud and she wouldn't be able to hear him coming.
00:47:12
Speaker
She wouldn't go to bed with the windows open and would religiously check that all doors and windows were locked because she was afraid that Charlie would come and kill again. I wouldn't tell them where I lived. I mean, that is fear right there. And it turns out that gut feeling that he would kill again was correct because he had.
00:47:36
Speaker
And because of the details of the crime and the precision of the cuts and the mutilation on Michelle's body, law enforcement didn't believe that this was his first time committing a crime just like this one. So they went to investigate Charlie's home to see what they could find and what they found.
00:47:54
Speaker
was disturbing. First, he had a subscription to Victoria's Secret catalog. So not his wife, he did. So could that explain a secret obsession with his niece, Michelle? And why he cut up all of her underwear? Yep, because it was all Victoria's Secret stuff. And law enforcement did find out from interviewing a coworker of Charlie's that he always referred to Michelle as Victoria's Secret. And he would make inappropriate comments about her appearance.
00:48:26
Speaker
Mm hmm. Charlie also had newspaper clippings and books about surgery. It was a radio technician. Well, you know, we talk about that. We're teachers.
00:48:39
Speaker
And like, look at our surgery. I mean, that's true. But he's got books about surgery. And behind his bedroom door, he had a full sized poster. And you've seen them of those like, it's half a skeleton, half muscle, but it's of a woman with her hair in a bun.
00:49:00
Speaker
on this poster. The search of his web history showed him regularly visiting websites about necrophilia, violence against women, and autopsy photos. So our searches are weird, but they are not.
00:49:17
Speaker
that weird. Right. We're just Googling serial killers. Right. That's it. Yeah. They found Terry's diary as well, though it it like actually never exposed any dark secrets about Charlie. In fact, most of the entries were about the two going fishing together having a nice dinner when they bought to make for dinner or
00:49:38
Speaker
taking a boat ride and a boat running out of the gas. There were a few entries that had odd comments that said things like Charlie had a quote unquote weird day or that he had been out fishing all night.
00:49:54
Speaker
I think she's a serial killer. Yeah, that's as specific as her entries got. It was only later that Jim admitted to law enforcement of an off-putting conversation that he had once had with Charlie, a conversation that, by the way, he had failed to share with Terry.
00:50:13
Speaker
His wife? Yeah. Jim and Angela had just divorced and Jim had gone fishing with Charlie. They'd been drinking and fishing all day when the two of them somehow began talking about revenge. Jim recalled of that memory quote, well, you know, you get your feelings hurt and want to lash out. I believe he looked at me and said, well, if you really want to get revenge,
00:50:41
Speaker
you should kill somebody and cut their heart out. Michelle's parents are irate that the Brandt family had kept Charlie's past such a secret. They argue that had the records not been sealed and no treatment mandated, they might have at least known of potential trouble.
00:51:06
Speaker
And as for the belief that Terry knew Charlie's past before marrying him, they disagree completely. Michelle's father Bill said, quote, I don't think she would have married him period at all had she known, end quote. Yeah, I would hope one. I mean, again, I know we go to like the
00:51:29
Speaker
rehabilitation thing, but like one, was he really rehabilitated? Right. No. And then like, I know people deserve second chances and like, we shouldn't be judgmental. But I feel like there should have been mandated, you know, mental health treatment or follow ups or something.
00:51:49
Speaker
And even Michelle's friends are irate. Michelle's friend Debbie wants Charlie's father to be punished for keeping the secret. She argued, quote, Charlie's father should be exposed. He knew what his son did. He knew the crimes he did. I would love to see him sit right next to me because I find him guilty, end quote.
00:52:12
Speaker
Wow. And Maggie, there are so many other murders that could be linked with Charlie because they have a similar MO.
Uncovering Possible Serial Killer Evidence
00:52:22
Speaker
And Charlie was known to travel for his job, not only across the country, but also internationally. What? Yes. Now, the good news for law enforcement is that Charlie's MO is very specific.
00:52:38
Speaker
And for some cases, that makes it easy to link Charlie to the crime. For others, there's a trail, right? There's a potential. So you remember the precision with which Charlie cut the boards for Hurricane Ivan. It was also meticulous. Yes, he was also meticulous in keeping track of mileage on driving for his company.
00:53:03
Speaker
So as a result, it was very easy to see if Charlie were in a particular area of the country and how much he traveled around that area while there to potentially link him to other crimes. Okay, I'm going to pause because I want to know and I'm going to make a note. I want to know how our sleuth hounds spell the word traveled.
00:53:31
Speaker
Because Allison and I spell it the same, but not everybody spells it this way. And I want to know how you all spell it. Interesting. Yeah. Side, side combo. We'll find out. So the following are the crimes also believed to have been committed by Charlie.
00:53:55
Speaker
Number one, the December 1988 murder of Lisa Saunders, age 20. She had been stabbed and pulled from her car in Big Pine Key, where Charlie lived. When she was found, her heart was missing.
00:54:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah. However, law enforcement cannot be certain whether her killer had removed it or whether it was gone as a result of vultures. So obviously, I mean, if the attacker had cut open her chest cavity, then birds of prey would have descended and caused more damage. So that is what makes the determination unclear. But in my mind, that makes sense to be Charlie.
00:54:37
Speaker
Number two, the 1989 murder of Sherry Parisho. Sherry was 38, homeless, and lived in a dinghy in the North Pine Channel in Big Pine Key.
00:54:50
Speaker
When her partially clothed body was discovered on July 16th, 1989, floating in the water, her throat had been cut so severely that her head was nearly severed. Her chest cavity had been opened and her heart removed. So many similarities. One of the divers who retrieved her body, Sergeant Darryl Hull, said of the mutilation that it was, quote unquote, surgical.
00:55:18
Speaker
There were cut marks on the bottom of the dinghy as though the boat itself had served as a cutting board. Her body was found only a thousand feet away from Charlie's house.
00:55:34
Speaker
And in hindsight, Charlie matched a sketch from an eyewitness of a man seen crossing the road right near where the body was discovered. And the night that she was killed was the very night that Charlie had come home with blood on his clothes. The one that made Terry suspect that he had something to do with the death. The night that he told her that the blood was from filleting fish.
00:56:02
Speaker
Now, based upon all the evidence that's been collected, law enforcement in Monroe County, where the murder occurred, claim that Charlie Brandt committed the murder and they closed the case in 2006. In 1995, there was the murder of Darlene Tolar, also aged 38. She was found missing her head and her heart.
00:56:29
Speaker
With what remained of her body wrapped in plastic and then in blankets and dumped along the highway near Miami, her head and heart were never discovered. But this highway where her body was found was one that Charlie frequently traveled for work. And on the day of her murder, Charlie had logged that he drove around 100 miles, roughly the same mileage as a trip would be from Big Pine Key.
00:56:59
Speaker
to where her body was discovered near Miami. So those are the three main ones, but there are other murders potentially perpetrated by Charlie Brandt as well, including the 1978 murder of 12-year-old Carol Sullivan. She had been abducted from her bus stop on September 20th, 1978 in this one county in Florida. And it was a county where 20-year-old Charlie Brandt lived at the time.
00:57:29
Speaker
By the time Carol's body was discovered, she was merely a skeleton, and all that they found was her skull in a bucket. And so that led many people to believe that she had been decapitated. And we don't know if the rest of her body had been mutilated, because it wasn't found. But the problem is, other than living in the same county as the crime, there aren't additional details to link Charlie Brandt to that murder.
00:58:00
Speaker
We know the crime he committed in 1971, and we know the crime he committed in 2004. And now we have other cases dating in the middle from at least 1989 and 1995. So how many more could there be, especially given how much he traveled? There were no fewer than 26
00:58:25
Speaker
unsolved murder cases just in Florida in the time Charlie Brandt was a resident that shared some similarity to his M.O. So how many more people had trusted him?
00:58:40
Speaker
Lead investigator Hemmert hit on that saying, quote, that's the sad part about this. These people were completely misled. They knew Charlie Brant to be this guy that they could rely on. That was the friend who was there when they needed
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00:58:56
Speaker
him. We knew Charlie. They knew the work, Charlie. They knew the go out on the boat fishing, Charlie. They didn't know the true Charlie. We do.
00:59:09
Speaker
and quote Michelle's mother, Mary Lou agreed, quote, I believe he had a covert evil nature and I believe he was able to control it and cover it. He was an invisible criminal walking around and quote. And if that statement doesn't put fear in us all, I don't know what will.
00:59:36
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:00:05
Speaker
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01:00:27
Speaker
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01:00:54
Speaker
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Speaker
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