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Empathy, Identity, and Collaboration with Zhou Fang
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Zhou Fang is the founder of Intersectional Group - a leadership, people and culture practice with a focus on intersectionality, empathy, compassion, intentionality, as well as curiosity.
Zhou is a passionate advocate for pay transparency and equity, mental wellbeing, immigration reform, and climate justice, as well as a committed ally for the LGBTQ+ and Indigenous communities.
Currently, Zhou serves on the board of Portland HR Management Association, as well as a thought leader for the Policy Committee at Women’s Foundation of Oregon. She is also the producer and host of The Intersection, a podcast program about intersectionality, identity, leadership, and personal journey.
Outside of work, Zhou is a proud dog and plant parent and a comedy and horror movie enthusiast. She appreciates good food and loves to travel.
LINKS
- Intersectional Group
- Zhou’s LinkedIn
- Instagram: @intersectionalliving
- Podcast: The Intersection
- Kimberlé Crenshaw - Wiki
HOSTS
- Andrea Goulet LinkedIn | andreagoulet.com
- Ray Myers LinkedIn | Craft vs Cruft on YouTube
ABOUT EMPATHY IN TECH
Empathy in Tech is on a mission to accelerate the responsible adoption of empathy in the tech industry by:
- Closing the empathy skills gap by treating empathy as a technical skill.
- Teaching technical empathy through accessible, affordable, actionable training.
- Building community and breaking down harmful stereotypes and tropes.
- Promoting technical empathy for ethics, equity, and social justice.
Learn more at empathyintech.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Empathy in Tech
00:00:02
Speaker
When we talk about intersectionality, talk about empathy and compassion, it doesn't mean we all have to be nice. It's about being kind. Being kind means you are true to yourself and to others, including when you need to hold someone accountable.
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to Empathy in Tech, where we explore the deeply technical side of empathy. And the critical need for empathy in technology.
Intersectionality and Empathy with Jo Fong
00:00:30
Speaker
Andrea Goulet. and today on the show we have joe fun show is the founder and principal consultant of intersectional group lc a leadership people and culture practice with a focus on intersectionality empathy compassion intentionality as well as curiosity joe is a passionate advocate for pay transparency and equity mental well-being, immigration reform, and climate justice, as well as a committed ally for the LGBTQ plus and indigenous communities. Currently, Jo serves on the board of Portland HR Management Association, as well as thought leader for the policy committee at Women's Foundation of Oregon. She's also the producer and host of The Intersection, a podcast program about intersectionality, identity, leadership, and personal journey. Thank you so much for being here, Jo.
00:01:17
Speaker
Thank you for having me. It's ah such a good day to be here. Happy Friday. Yeah, we're so glad you're here. And I'm excited to have this conversation about intersectionality and empathy and all of the great work that you do. To start things off, I'd like to kind of get everybody on the same page with some of the terminology, because I think sometimes it's like,
00:01:40
Speaker
especially now we have these ideas of what these things mean, but I want to make sure that we kind of approach it from a little bit of a technical standpoint. So how do you define intersectionality and why do you think it's important? And, you know, crime why did you choose to make this the central focus of your work?
00:01:58
Speaker
ah Thank you, Andrea. It's I think for me, when intersectionality came to my attention maybe five years ago, i was very surprised in a very good way that it resonated with me so much.
00:02:12
Speaker
I think intersectionality commonly understood as um there are a lot of intersections in our lives, in our identities. and Originally, when the framework was created by Professor Kimberley Crenshaw, um it basically represented how how lives can be different when our identities differ. For example, for a black woman, her life experience will be different ah from a black man, for example.
00:02:45
Speaker
and Of course, a black man's life experience will be different from a white man. When you combine those as a black person and a woman, a black woman's life experience will be very different from both a black man and a white man.
00:03:04
Speaker
so Initially, intersectionality was created to address like both racial and gender differences. And how could that impact one's life?
00:03:15
Speaker
And of course, right now, when we look at intersectionality, it goes beyond that. It goes beyond gender, ethnicity. It also addresses ah neurodiversity, for example, our ability status, our eco-socio-economic status as well, et cetera.
00:03:34
Speaker
And for me, ah my intersectional identity ah also includes immigrant. Right. So intersectionality very much is about how one's life, or how one's journey can be shaped by our own intersectional identities and how they change over
Evolving Intersectional Identities
00:03:57
Speaker
time as well. For example, as we age, we will become from kid to like young adults and then mid-age, and then eventually we become a senior. In that life journey, our interactions with the society will change.
00:04:13
Speaker
and how people treat us will change as well. So that is another layer to intersectionality is it changes and evolves as we grow. um So that's basically kind of my own interpretation and understanding of within intersectionality.
00:04:30
Speaker
And it resonates with me a lot um because back in, I think around 2017, 2018, I started to learn about diversity, equity, and inclusion.
00:04:42
Speaker
And I was very, ah again, ah found myself in a place where I felt like seen and heard. i'm like, of course, we should talk about diversity and inclusion. Why wouldn't we?
00:04:56
Speaker
And I realized a lot of my own experiences as an immigrant and as a woman of color um My experience is different from others because of um diversity, sometimes a lack of and inclusion and oftentimes the lack of them.
00:05:16
Speaker
So I had that realization around 2018. And then um going forward, entering 2019, 2020, we know you know the United States and also globally, we all experienced a lot of like sudden changes, like say, politically and also the pandemic, COVID pandemic. I think fortunately, that's when I came across the framework of intersectionality. And suddenly I felt like it all makes sense.
Diversity and Common Human Needs
00:05:47
Speaker
It helps me see the why. Because when we talk about diversity, people oftentimes will say, what do you mean? i You are just a person to me, I don't see color, right? Like that's a very common ah kind of response when people are reluctant about practicing diversity.
00:06:09
Speaker
But then if you tell them about intersectionality, you'll be like, oh, actually everyone is different. regardless of your gender, your race, your age, all the things, we all walk on different paths.
00:06:23
Speaker
And at the same time, our paths cross as well. There are a lot of overlaps in our path as a person. And Collectively, as humans, we are different and we are also very, very similar.
00:06:40
Speaker
The things we want and need to sustain our life are actually not that different from one to another. Like we want security, we want food on the table, we want health care, we want education. We don't want to end up in the street. Most of us don't.
00:06:58
Speaker
So like the basics in our lives, we all want the same things. So I think that's also why I feel intersectionality potentially has the ability to bring people together.
00:07:13
Speaker
And i think that goes to empathy. that's That's why I feel like empathy has to be connected to intersectionality.
00:07:24
Speaker
because empathy is about understanding. and ah Empathy is about feeling for other people. um ah Empathy is about being thoughtful communicators.
00:07:35
Speaker
And I think all those qualities about empathy is very, very relevant to the intersectionality framework. That is kind of like a long version of why I feel like I use intersectionality as the core framework ah at ah my practice and also why I highly, highly value and practice empathy um in my life as well.
00:08:01
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons that you and I bonded so quickly is, and one of the reasons that I really like your approach to intersectionality is that it's not just a about the intersectional pieces that we kind of can't control,
Complexity of Personal Stories
00:08:15
Speaker
right? The way that we're born, like, you know, here's how our brain works or here's, you know, what color my skin is or you know, here's the gender that I, you know, the particular skin I was born in body parts.
00:08:26
Speaker
um But it's also about your story. And, you know, when we were chatting, i was on your podcast and i talked about like a big piece of intersectionality for me is that I started in marketing, but then I moved into software. And then I had this like Am I technical? Am I non-technical? And there was like this struggle. So I love the way you're phrasing that around the stories. And I think it's also really about frame of reference because when I hear you talk, it's like,
00:08:56
Speaker
I almost envision like each of us has these own frames, like they're kind of like boxes above our heads, almost like kind of like puzzle pieces. And when I think of intersectionality, it's kind of this idea of, oh, you and I have a similar piece. So where does that fit in? or your pieces are different.
00:09:12
Speaker
And it's really less about who you are as a human and getting to understand the values, what's important, and then what kind of went into that. is that Am I phrasing that right? don't want to put words in your mouth, but when I hear you and you know know about your work, that's one of the things that deeply resonates with me.
00:09:29
Speaker
I feel that for sure. i feel what my understanding of what we just said is um we we can accommodate each other, right? Like when talk about the puzzles, it's like we are all pieces of a puzzle, of we are all pieces of different puzzles.
00:09:46
Speaker
And if we look at our ah individual, like individualism separately, then we are not going to be able to come together if we look at every everyone individually.
Intersectional Leadership and Collaboration
00:09:59
Speaker
But if we we put everyone in the big picture, then we all have a role in it and we can actually work together and become a whole piece, like a whole picture. Yeah.
00:10:10
Speaker
Yeah. So there is a lot going on in the world right now relating to DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion. As someone who's a practitioner in that space, what have you been experiencing with some of the the cultural shifts that have been happening?
00:10:27
Speaker
That's a really big and hard question, Ray. And um I think for better or worse, one, i never specifically positioned myself as a diversity, equity, inclusion practitioner.
00:10:41
Speaker
So like from the beginning, when I started intersectional group, I call myself intersectionality. Like this is my practice is intersectionality.
00:10:52
Speaker
And under intersectionality, there iss no way that we can do the work if we don't care about diversity, equity and inclusion and of course, justice, et cetera.
00:11:05
Speaker
So I think for me in my work, ah it's a it's something I have to practice and honor in order to stay true to what I say.
00:11:16
Speaker
So if I say I'm an intersectionality practitioner, then in my work and in my life, I need to respect and practice diversity, equity, and inclusion. Otherwise, it's not going to work. so For me personally and professionally, um the principles don't really change. like The values don't change.
00:11:37
Speaker
I still
Challenges in DEI and Empathy
00:11:38
Speaker
call myself a practitioner of intersectionality and i always try to be as inclusive and equitable as I can. And I think higher level, like if we look at the larger space, I think, yes, people are very afraid of using diversity, equity, inclusion, these words these days.
00:12:00
Speaker
i mean, The interesting thing really is it seems like today everyone is so afraid of using every word. Like, can I even say woman? Right. Can I even say woman's health?
00:12:13
Speaker
Can I even say spirituality oter without stirring, you know, like a side eye? Right. um So I think overall we are very afraid.
00:12:27
Speaker
um So I think that's the general energy here. And um I also think because of the anti, I'm going to use air quotes here, anti-DEI movement, because I think regardless of your stance, DEI doesn't really go away.
00:12:45
Speaker
Like you can't really avoid it. So in these anti-DEI movements, I also sense a movement of anti-empathy. Mm-hmm.
00:12:58
Speaker
if we If we don't pay attention, if we don't care about others, people, people who may be on a different path from us, people who may have different life experience, if we don't care about those folks and what they may be going through, then basically we're anti-empathy because we don't want to care anymore.
00:13:23
Speaker
So I think that is actually a more dangerous sign to me when we lose or start to lose the willingness and the ability to care, to empathize, to try to bridge or try to communicate. Like if I stop reaching out to people and want to understand, then that's the moment when I feel like I don't have a practice anymore.
00:13:50
Speaker
If I stop doing that, then the practice doesn't exist. um so i think you know talking about anti-dei really i think is uh anti-empathy and anti basically being human yeah i mean i think you're right with the anti-empathy i mean elon musk got on stage and was like yeah the problem with the world right now is empathy there's several books that have come out lately that like there's one called toxic empathy and it's basically like i know you know, how empathy is a liability and, you know, it's preventing us. So there there absolutely is a documented backlash for that.
00:14:27
Speaker
And, you know, I think the idea you know, like you were saying, it's almost like it's misunderstood. You know, I think that's the purpose of this podcast, too, is are we are we saying the same things? And when you actually get down to it, it's like,
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, of course we're going to run into people that we don't know and we have different life experiences. How do we interact with other people so that we can live good lives and solve problems.
00:14:53
Speaker
I'm curious that like, so one of the places that you work is intersectional leadership. So i want to touch on this a little bit. And I'm curious about like, what types of clients do you work with? And then what kind of outcomes are you looking to achieve? So when you work with a leader, like, what's the problem they come in with? And then like, how do you help them?
Goals of Intersectional Leadership
00:15:13
Speaker
you know, get to whatever place that they're looking to go? Yeah, thank you for that question, Andrea. I think intersectional leadership very much to break it down is to shift from traditional leadership to a more kind of collaborative, ah compassionate leadership.
00:15:31
Speaker
Because traditionally, when we talk about leadership, it feels very top down. um So when we consider someone as a leader, we oftentimes think about this stereotype, right? Like an older person, oftentimes a white man, or like, you know, wearing a suit. We think about people like that.
00:15:53
Speaker
And I think more and more these days, we are also so expanding our kind of stock photos, quote unquote, like what a leader looks like. They can be a woman, but oftentimes they are still older white woman. right We think about leaders in the nation, leaders at like ah higher level positions.
00:16:13
Speaker
um So we still have a um relatively limited understanding of what a leader looks like. And I think intersection leadership here is I want to expand folks' understanding of leader is you don't have to have a title. You don't have to be a CEO.
00:16:33
Speaker
You don't have to be an executive director to be considered a leader. If you want to lead a life that speaks to your value and ah speaks true to you, then you are a leader in your life because we are leading a life we want to live.
00:16:52
Speaker
And from there, we go into our professional world, right? Like if we show up in our life this way, how are we going to show up at work? How can we intersect our values life experience and the values we follow in personal life and intersect that with our work life when we show up in the professional world.
00:17:17
Speaker
So that's one thing. And another thing is being an intersectional leader means we understand the principles and we we understand the framework of intersectionality, again, is that we're all different and we're also very similar.
00:17:36
Speaker
We all have different life experiences and at the same time, our ah experiences overlap. And again, that's where empathy comes in is Like, for example, if I were leader of a team, say I lost someone in my family, and then ah coworker comes to me and tell me my dog died,
00:18:03
Speaker
and i would like to take some time off and process my grief. And I think traditionally, and especially in the States, right, because we don't have a lot of paid leave, you know, ah designated to ah organizations or persons, I might say, oh yeah, just take the day off, right? Because, yeah, your dog died, then, yeah, take the day off and then come back tomorrow.
00:18:28
Speaker
But if you are an intersectional leader, you might think, oh, when I lost a family member, this is how I felt. And I actually needed a lot of time and space to hold myself and process my grief.
00:18:44
Speaker
And then i will be able to empathize with this coworker who just lost a beloved family member. And in order to process their grief and emotion,
00:18:56
Speaker
They can't just be taking one day off. They might need more time. They might need the care and be asked, what can I do for you?
00:19:06
Speaker
How can I support you during this time? ah do you need anything from me or from the team? Can I take something off from your plate so that you can be with your own space and with your own grief and process your ah emotion?
00:19:24
Speaker
So I
Empathy vs. Niceness in Leadership
00:19:25
Speaker
would really, going back to empathy, I will be more thoughtful and empathetic. I would be able to lead with empathy and compassion instead of, you know, be compliant and say, take the day off and come back tomorrow.
00:19:40
Speaker
So that's kind of like a simple example of illustration of what intersectional leadership looks like. It really just means you care and you as a whole person instead of just a worker or just an employee.
00:19:56
Speaker
So there's a ah concept I wanted to ask you about that. I think a lot of people have this as a concept in their head, whether they use the jargon or not. But I think the jargon for it is the hierarchy of oppression.
00:20:09
Speaker
ah But basically what I observe is that people in marginalized groups sometimes act as though they are in competition with other marginalized groups for marginalized status, they will say things to the effect of this group has not had to struggle in the way that this group has, yeah you know, and so on. And I can't say I have no concept of that. Like I can't disavow that entirely because even for me to be able to say, as I believe that I'm not significantly a marginalized person, I have made some kind of assessment of that. Well, I am actually neurodiverse, but like,
00:20:49
Speaker
It doesn't really affect my life to the degree that i would I would even try to claim that status, right? So I have made some judgment about my ah marginalized status, you know, not not being um as significant as some other dimensions and what I
Abundance Mindset in Social Justice
00:21:04
Speaker
observed. So like, obviously, we're not going to get by like – thinking there is there is no greater and lesser marginalization.
00:21:13
Speaker
But I see it becoming this competitive thing where ah people are are trying to gatekeep status and making a statement like women are more oppressed than gay people or less oppressed than gay people, like as though it were some linear scale, seems like the opposite of of a productive dialogue. right like You see this in kind of in every...
00:21:37
Speaker
permutation, i would assume this is something that you think about a lot working on intersectionality. Like um i'd I'd love for you to, to let us know how you think of, of this. And if you've had conversations with people that were kind of approaching it that way.
00:21:53
Speaker
That's a very thoughtful question. Thank you, Ray. And it's a question that I think about often. And at times I feel like I need to do a lot of self-reflection as well. Like you already mentioned, like it's not linear, right? It's intersectional. Just because you are a member of one oppressed community doesn't mean you are suffering somehow.
00:22:16
Speaker
is greater than some other groups. Again, i think when we experience or witness ah situations like that, ah when we witness gatekeeping and ah protect protective behavior over resources, it is a demonstration of ah the scarcity mindset.
00:22:42
Speaker
If you are someone who practices empathy, intersectionality, and compassion, then you have an opportunity to practice the abundance mindset, which is like, for example, again, i am Chinese woman, I'm an immigrant, and maybe my friend is a Black person from the queer community.
00:23:09
Speaker
So we look pretty different. So if I am practicing my scarcity mindset, then will be like, I suffer so much, I deserve this.
00:23:22
Speaker
So I am going to take it and keep it. I'm not going to share it. And the other person may be thinking the same, right? So that's scarcity mindset. And at the end of the day, everyone kind of has less because we are all kind of afraid of losing.
00:23:40
Speaker
um So whatever we already have and trying to protect, that's it. That's all you get. However, if I, a a Chinese woman, an immigrant, practices the abundance mindset, and this Black person from the queer community also practices the abundance mindset, then it means Everyone is suffering.
00:24:04
Speaker
We are not having a competition here. This is what I have. And the other person thinks, this is what I have. Let's see what we have. And we can share resources.
00:24:15
Speaker
So when we open that abundance up, you can see our resources being multiplied. And just imagine if a third person comes into the chat, if another group of people come into the chat and we are all like, we are all suffering at the same time, we all have something others don't.
00:24:36
Speaker
So let's open up our resource. Let's, you know, accommodate each other and support each other and collaborate. And then our resources will multiply. So I think it is this ah so-called hierarchy of oppression It is based on and rooted in the scarcity mindset. And I think order to counter that or curb that, um we need more and more folks to join the abundance mindset practice.
Building Inclusive Communities
00:25:05
Speaker
So it sounds like that's a world in which we're just trying to create a world that you know that is systemically more equitable and not one that is actively trying to counter some perceived status by taking very specifically you know beneficial actions to to who we think has the status today.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, and I want to kind of circle back to the intersectional leadership question that Andrea had. I don't think I fully responded to the question, which is like what kind of outcome I would hope from the intersectional leadership practice really is to make our community And I believe a workplace is also a community. We oftentimes don't think that way.
00:25:53
Speaker
But our co-workers, our employees are actually our community members. So that's a note there. So the outcome of intersectional leadership really is leading to a more equitable space, ah more equitable community.
00:26:08
Speaker
And also for us all to have the capacity and ability to practice the abundance mindset. Like say, if I were a leader of my ah group, it can be at a workplace, it it can be in a community, then we should, intersectional leader, to be able to say, hey, let's share the abundance of our collective wisdom.
00:26:35
Speaker
instead of me making a decision, let's come together and kind of discuss this situation together. Also, so oh, maybe, you know, i didn't see this coming, um can someone share their insight or is there any feedback about the last quarter, how we did that I might have missed?
00:26:56
Speaker
So it's really about um have the abundance of our ah ideas, of our wisdom and kind of share them with each other.
00:27:08
Speaker
And together we ah we have more. Abundance is not about endless needs.
Empathy, Boundaries, and Accountability
00:27:15
Speaker
abundance is not about so much desire, right? Like it's not like wanting more and more and more.
00:27:22
Speaker
Abundance is about everyone can have a share, everyone can have enough resources, everyone has the space to grow. um So I wanted to just kind of link back to intersectional leadership a little bit. So the outcome will be, you know, a group of people with intersectional leadership can all thrive and have an equitable life and share the abundance together.
00:27:50
Speaker
I love that. And it also makes me think. So when I was leading my team, one of the big struggles that i had was kind of the balancing accountability with intersectionality. So recognizing that some people need additional resources, you know, compared to others. I think that's a great way to describe kind of the marginalization that you talked about was the access to resources and things like that.
00:28:12
Speaker
But then there is this idea that people are maybe getting special treatment or they're like, you know, taking more than they might need. And then it creates this kind of sense of jealousy.
00:28:23
Speaker
and I think what what I have learned in kind of the exploration around empathy is just how important boundaries are be able to have some of these things. So I'm curious if you could touch a little bit on kind of boundaries and accountability and how that also plays in. Because I think some of the backlash is that the idea that you know, to the DEI thing is like, oh, you're just talking about this ideal world where no problems ever happen. and It's this complete utopia. But there are like real needs where it's like, I'm sorry, I wish I could give you the time off to grieve for your pet. And we just can't right now because of this. Like, and you have to sometimes make those really hard decisions. So how do you use intersectionality and boundaries and accountability? How do you manage all of that when kind of the real world jumps in?
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good question, Andrea. So I think when we talk about intersectionality, talk about empathy and compassion, it doesn't mean we all have to be nice.
00:29:21
Speaker
out It's not about being friendly. It's not about being nice. It's not being about being a pushover. It's about being kind.
00:29:34
Speaker
And I think being kind... means you are true to yourself and to others, including when times when you need to hold someone accountable, including when you need to protect and respect boundaries, both people's boundary and your own boundaries.
00:29:57
Speaker
So I think there is a difference between being empathetic and being nice. So it's not about endlessly like give, give and give, but it's about um the fact that we are all smart enough um to understand, assess the situation, and then being able to make a decision that's based on the current situation.
00:30:28
Speaker
Say I'm a manager and this co-worker who's been in the organization for maybe a couple of years, so a junior person, and ah this year,
00:30:42
Speaker
for some reason, this person's performance slipped. So as their manager, I took notice. So at these kind of like quarterly check-in, et cetera, I will be like, hey, great you know work across the board. at the same time, i did notice Sometimes you you know things fall through the cracks or sometimes you are not as communicative or sometimes I notice you've had some delays on some certain projects.
00:31:19
Speaker
And I also notice that um maybe we could have a better communication or something more responsive. So I think that is one way to call people in.
00:31:32
Speaker
um with kindness and also with like um thoughtful communication. We can be like, hey, I noticed this is happening or this has happened. And this is actually very different from how you used to um work here.
00:31:49
Speaker
Is there something that we can help you with? Are you struggling with something? Or is there something I can help you or if I personally cannot, is there someone I can point to and maybe can support you during this time? Is there a problem?
00:32:07
Speaker
um What can we do to help you through this? We really value you. we appreciate you as a team member and we want you to continue to learn grow and thrive how can we help you to get through this barrier you are experiencing now trying to hold someone accountable and also acknowledge the challenges they may be facing right now and hopefully if this person is open enough they would share and then we'll be able to come up with a plan and help this person go through.
00:32:43
Speaker
So I think that's one way to use empathetic communication ah to hold someone accountable and see what they need ah in order to improve and continue to grow.
00:32:57
Speaker
And I think when it comes to boundaries, I think that's an interesting one because as leaders, it actually can be really hard to keep our boundaries.
00:33:09
Speaker
um So I think for leaders to practice and ah boundaries at first, you need to set the boundaries. Like you need to pay attention to those kind of like ah triggers.
00:33:24
Speaker
What sets you off? What kind of makes you ah aware like, oh, i I feel violated, but I need to figure out why or what.
00:33:38
Speaker
And i think that's also um where kind of a trauma informed leadership comes in, which I don't know if we can go much deeper today, but I think our trauma can inform our boundaries a lot. It's like if someone stepped on the boundary, ah we will notice because of previous experiences and sometimes unpleasant experiences.
00:34:05
Speaker
So I would invite people to pay attention to what makes them feel not great and what makes them burn out. Because sometimes when you receive the same kind of like boundary violation over and over, you get burnt out.
00:34:25
Speaker
um So I will start with paying attention to what violates you and what triggers you. and then set out boundaries accordingly. like For example, if you don't want to receive any work-related messages after five, then turn off your notifications. right I think that's a very basic thing to help with our mental well-being and also protect some boundaries.
00:34:53
Speaker
um and also you can be communicative about this to a team and say hey i would like to be as responsive as i can however i have these kind of windows like generally speaking after 7 pm please unless it's an emergency please let me be and so we can be clear about our boundaries and ask other people to respect it and ask other people to do the same, to set their own boundaries and actually practice them.
00:35:25
Speaker
Because oftentimes, and myself included, i will set some boundaries and I will break them. um So if we are not honoring or practicing respecting our own boundaries, it will be hard to ask others to do that as well.
00:35:42
Speaker
So the real hard task maybe here is to actually not break your own boundaries so that you can also honor and respect others' boundaries as well.
00:35:56
Speaker
Um, so i don't know if that properly addressed the question. Yeah, it's, ah it's so complex. I'll just add on real quick an insight that I had. I had, um you know, when I was first becoming more of a manager and a leader, I had a great employee who, you know, was honest and open and candid.
00:36:14
Speaker
And I learned to love that. And one of the things that she pointed out that I had a habit of doing was I would get sucked into one person's story. to the point where I would ignore the needs of the bigger group.
00:36:30
Speaker
And, you know, this is, you know, in the literature, the scientific literature, this is the identified victim effect. So if you have someone where it's like, oh my gosh, my dog died, I want to do everything for you. Like, please, you don't have to. But then it's like, wait, you know, I love the framing of like, okay, how can we figure out how to get the job done under these constraints? Mm-hmm.
00:36:54
Speaker
Like I'm thinking about the, you know, if your organization has a setup where one person has to be on call each weekend because sometimes production goes down. And so you have to have one person who is monitoring it. And that is like the norm of the group. And that's how you achieve your mission. And that is the shared expectation.
00:37:14
Speaker
If you then say, I'm not going to check my phone after five, that's actually... like That's problematic. But if in general, it's like there's not a lot of time sensitive things. you know and And so for me, that recognizing the group's boundaries and the group's behavioral norms and setting very clear expectations for the group, it then helps keep it about the work and less about the person. And that's kind of the way that...
00:37:45
Speaker
I've come to learn it, but yeah, that was a that was a hard pill to swallow. But it was really great. I got that feedback because I think it's made me a better person. so Yeah. I mean, we all learn from the hard things.
00:37:59
Speaker
And I agree. If there is a role that does require you know extended kind of hours on call, then we need to be clear about the expectations.
00:38:09
Speaker
and Because some people may not be able to do that really for various reasons. um So setting boundaries also means setting expectations so that we're able to ah realistically set the boundaries and actually practice them. So yeah, thank you for the chime in.
00:38:28
Speaker
So we have one final question that we ask everyone who comes on
Communication's Role in Empathy and Tech
00:38:32
Speaker
the show. And I'm really curious to hear your thoughts. What do you think is the most important thing that should happen at the intersection, since we're all talking about intersectionality, of empathy and technology?
00:38:44
Speaker
When we talk about empathy, we talk about it's human, right? Like as humans, we can learn and practice to be empathetic. And when it comes to technology, we think about how can we use technology to assist human beings?
00:39:02
Speaker
This is a interesting one because I think to connect our humanness with technology, we have to be able to talk to each other. So I think, ah I mean, both figuratively and ah realistically is how can we communicate better as humans with each other and also to communicate with the machine, right?
00:39:29
Speaker
Like how can we teach people technology so that it can actually serve humans and not just a certain group of humans.
00:39:40
Speaker
um We all know there's a lot of tech out there who says it's innovative, it's creative, it's a game changer, it can change your future. But really the question is to change whose future.
00:39:53
Speaker
We want technology to be empathetic. to everyone so that not just a certain group feeling heard, but really is our community members from different backgrounds can feel, oh, these ta be this piece of technology actually does help me.
00:40:16
Speaker
And I think that requires very thoughtful and empathetic communications when we humans create that piece of technology.
00:40:27
Speaker
So when when people who are creating the technology, first of all, they need to be from different backgrounds. Otherwise, we won't be able to create real inclusive technology that can actually be empathetic.
00:40:42
Speaker
So how can we create and bring people together and have like real conversations and doing real research and actually have representative data of the people we say we're going to serve.
00:40:59
Speaker
So that's one piece of the communication. And two, how do we actually communicate with each other either via a letter, email, chats, one-on-one conversations?
00:41:14
Speaker
How can we actually use empathy and to solve our problems as we create ah different technology to come back and support us I think that's another really um important piece to the puzzle is how can we communicate thoughtfully and empathetically.
00:41:38
Speaker
So I would say communication right now in my mind, i think is the most important thing in the intersection of empathy and technology.
Closing Remarks
00:41:48
Speaker
This has been amazing conversation. How can people get in touch with you and learn more about your work?
00:41:53
Speaker
Yeah, thank you all so much for having me. And i hope whatever I share today is ah least a little helpful and useful for your audience. And if folks want to learn more about intersectionality and of course empathy and intersectional leadership, um please go to intersectional.group.
00:42:13
Speaker
um So instead of.com is intersectional.group. That's the website and you can email me at joe, Z-H-O-U, at intersectional.group. My email is always welcome and open and please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn as well. My LinkedIn is the usual linkedin.com slash I-N slash joefong35. The best place really is go to the website, email me and LinkedIn.
00:42:45
Speaker
Awesome. Yay. and those links will be in the description. Okay. Thank you so much. Awesome. Thank you so much again, Joe, for coming on the show. And thanks to everyone who listened and participated in this conversation.
00:42:57
Speaker
Empathy in Tech is a nonprofit project of Superbloom. And together, we're on a mission to accelerate the responsible adoption of empathy in the tech industry by doing four things. Closing the empathy skills gap by treating empathy as a technical skill.
00:43:11
Speaker
Teaching technical empathy through accessible, affordable, and actionable training. Building community and breaking down harmful stereotypes and tropes. And promoting technical empathy for ethics, equity, and social justice.
00:43:23
Speaker
Head over to empathyintech.com to learn how you can get involved. And thanks again for listening. And we'll see you in the next episode.