Transcript
Speaker: My point is, no matter what I do, it is never enough and you should all be ashamed of yourself. Welcome to Empathy in Tech, where we explore the deeply technical side of empathy.
Speaker: And the critical need for empathy in technology. I'm Andrea Goulet. And I'm Ray Myers. So, Andrea, I am ambushing you today. you are.
Speaker: I have no idea what's coming. Even the name of the room, you were like, mystery episode. Mystery episode. I wouldn't even put it in the title. So... um We've been talking about like some heavy stuff lately, you know? Yeah.
Speaker: We've been talking, um you know, to to each other and maybe on air about various political turmoil. We're going to do a piece on the ends of programming. Many people believe my entire profession will ah go up in smoke in the next few years.
Speaker: Heavy stuff. So I thought maybe a palate cleanser today. ok We have a surprise topic today. His name is John Cena!
Speaker: John Cena! Okay. Andrea, how familiar are you with professional wrestling? ah Not very much. i know like the i mean i know who John Cena is because he has done acting in different movies. i kind of know the names of folks who have made it into...
Speaker: mainstream pop culture. but other than that, I do not watch it. I'm not familiar with it. So okay I'm scared. yeah Perfect. Perfect.
Speaker: So I ah you know. So in this particular episode, i guess I will play the reluctant role of the of the, you know, wrestling aficionado. okay bring you up to speed on that. I'm not really that either.
Speaker: I didn't even watch it when I was a kid, but like of late, I've developed a little bit more appreciation and respect for what's actually going on here. Okay. This at its best is a deeper form of entertainment. Okay. Then I appreciate it I can't wait to hear the link between professional wrestling, empathy and technology. I'm, I'm not finding it right now. So I'm really excited Figure out what you've got here. We might need to punt on the technology part. Okay. But I do think that in the example I'm going to provide, which is relating to the John Cena heel turn.
Speaker: We're going to explain what that is. Okay. um Which is an event that's in progress right now. is at the center of of of the wrestling world. I believe that empathy is just deeply ingrained in this. Really? But I'm going to demonstrate it. you knowm I'm going to give you some some clips. Okay. And it's actually just, you know, I'll pressure on you here.
Speaker: Okay. I don't have a punchline here. This is all going to be like, you're going to have to react to how empathy. Like spot the and empathy. How empathy being used here. I will set it up. Okay.
Speaker: Let me introduce some terms to kind of bring you into the wrestling world. I think that would be helpful for the audience, too. Now, are you familiar with the term kayfabe? Nope. All right.
Speaker: this is This is peak podcaster mansplaining going on. All right. So... i don't know if it's mansplaining if I don't have an understanding of the topic. Yeah. And I checked in with you. i don't think mansplaining. checked in with you beforehand.
Speaker: um Yeah. whether you Because you could have been. Ray, I know all about kayfabe. But kayfabe is the suspension of disbelief that occurs within professional wrestling. Okay. So people say things like wrestling's fake. I mean, that's like saying Casablanca is fake. It's I mean, I've always understood it more as theater.
Speaker: Yeah, right. It is theater. And there is, ah you know, kind of a blurry line between, you know, increasingly blurry at various times between, you know, so sort of what real behind the scenes and what is in the storyline. But in terms of the storyline that there're they're faking, that's kayfabe. And it's a willful to the suspension of disbelief. that that that Does it stand for anything?
Speaker: No, i'm I'm diving too deep. i'm yeah I'm wanting to follow all the side, all the side quests. so yeah Yeah, the etymology, the word origins actually unknown, but it is not an abbreviation or anything. It's just kind of a funny word. K-A-Y-F-A-B-E.
Speaker: is how it's spelled and that is just this mythology that ah must be kept up the the storyline as as it is presented okay the discipline of only revealing the things that are a part of that storyline is is keeping kayfabe right but sometimes real life situations do bleed over into what's presented and that is called a shoot Okay.
Speaker: So a shoot is the real life situation and the kayfabe is the fictional narrative. That's right. Exactly. And we're going to see kind of a blend of both. Okay. Then we have something that's going to be central to this is the term baby face or simply face, which is the hero, the good guy that you're supposed to root for.
Speaker: Historically and famously, John Cena has almost always been the good guy. Okay. almost like Superman, like portrayed positively almost to a fault. Some people even got sick of this.
Speaker: Okay. And he was kind of the face of the company for some years, you know? So, so, many saw him as being like overexposed. He's in all the matches. He's winning all the time. You know, it's just kind of one note and, and people started some of them to root against him.
Speaker: And this is where you wonder, can you capitalize on that? Can you turn him into a villain in the storyline? Yeah. or as it's called a heel, you know, um and and go let the people who want to root against him be vindicated and and and kind of be in the spotlight.
Speaker: It could be a really interesting thing to do. So a lot of people have wanted that to happen, but it never, never did. But now in his retirement here, they are finally doing the John Cena heel turn. OK, so that means he's moving into so this actually sounds like Captain America.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, that's a good comparison. know, it was the one-note Superman, and and now it's becoming a more complex, nebulous character. Then it's like, no, I'm going to move into situation where I know people aren't going to like me.
Speaker: Got all these terms correct. Okay. So a kayfabe is the like fictional narrative that's created for entertainment. The shoot is the like actual real life. You've got the face, which is the good guy, the heel that is a bad guy.
Speaker: And so a heel turn, which John Cena is doing, is like moving from the face to the bad guy. And then you just said another term.
Speaker: Yes. Heat. OK, you're doing brilliantly, by the way. And kind know this is the last term. So heat is that energy that the crowd gives off when they're rooting against someone, when they're really angry at them. And and we we take advantage of of that heat to to try and entertain them.
Speaker: And largely what we're gonna look at today is just what is John Cena's approach to generating that heel heat and really bring it to fruition. Does that have to do like, I know the Rock, it's like, do you smell what the Rock is cooking? Does that have to relate to heat?
Speaker: Oh, that's an interesting question. I don't believe that it does, although The Rock was frequently a heel and and was a genius at generating this heat. um But he does factor into the storyline, actually. we We've got, you know, multiple ah movie stars, you know, that that are that are part of this. Yeah, my kids love Moana. So...
Speaker: he's He's come a long way from the Scorpion King. So even though in real life we have a very positive feeling generally about The Rock, within this storyline, he's the bad guy because he's the figurehead of the company.
Speaker: And as people will remember from our episode, Who is the Business? ah People don't always have good feelings toward the business. Yeah. Oh, now I see how we're integrating it into tech.
Speaker: Yeah. And one of the interesting plot devices that they use is they will have someone in storyline portraying the face of the the business who actually behind the scenes is one of the people who is in charge of the company. That was true of The Rock. was true of of other people.
Speaker: who and And, you know, so they will be in storyline, be like, you're fired, throwing their weight around, making these decisions. um And that they are also actually the person who would be making that kind of decision. and only thing you compare to is like when Lorne Michaels is in a a sketch ok in Saturday Night Live, maybe.
Speaker: all right, so we're gonna see the exact moment of John Cena's heel turn. Now, just to check in with you here, there's not gonna be much violence in the clips that I'm gonna show, but there is at least like one move that happens if if that's all right. I'll be okay. I do tend to like have a really strong mirror neuron. So like when I see something like blooper reels or something, my body is just like, ah, like I kind of feel that pain for a little bit, but I think I'll be okay.
Speaker: All right. So to set the scene here right now, the rock in his role as the business is propositioning the the current champ, Cody Rhodes.
Speaker: Okay. And this kind of dark deal, like I want you to sell me your soul, know, in order for us to like push you as our champion. And the guy the other guy's like wearing a suit and tie and the rock is wearing like leather studded with like rhinestones on there.
Speaker: John Cena's in the background. Yeah, as we come in, the crowd's in heavy anticipation. They don't want Cody to side with The Rock. You know, they want him to be independent and and show backbone. Okay. You know, but but what's he going to do? You know, the the pressure's on.
Speaker: I gave my soul to this ring and these people long time ago. He looks like a Ken doll. Blonde hair, everything. like he As he should. He's the baby face right now.
Speaker: Hey, Rock! Go yourself!
Speaker: And the crowd goes wild! They're basically a proxy for everyone who's wanted to say that to their boss's boss. And you'll you'll see here John Cena in the background, you know, about to turn from the light side to the dark side.
Speaker: Ah! All right, now Cena is congratulating Cody on standing up to the man. And oh no! He just kicked him in a place where men don't want to be kicked.
Speaker: Indeed, we do not. So what's just happened here is Cody has, you know, triumphantly turned down this deal with the devil, as has stood up to The Rock and said, no, my soul belongs to these fans and and not you.
Speaker: and And John Cena, under the guise of congratulating Cody, you know, in gaining his confidence, yeah suddenly kicks him in the groin and Brock and Cena proceed to just beat the crap out of him.
Speaker: I mean, they're beating Cody with like his own watch used as a brass knuckle. It's ugly. Right. And now this is not something you would normally see from John Cena. wrestle and stuff, but you wouldn't as the the hero character be doing dirty moves like this, be doing these underhanded techniques. Right. So it's not enough just to tell you that someone's the bad guy. They have to show you heels have heel behaviors.
Speaker: They do dishonorable things. They are lazier. They cut corners. You know, they will engage in dirty fighting tactics like this. So we're already seeing two elements of a heel turn, which is that moment of betrayal and a behavior change.
Speaker: We also need to see the motivation. And since people have wanted to see this happen for so long, there's a lot of pressure on what that's going to be. Did people know it was coming or was this a surprise to people? Well, this moment was a complete surprise. It was a shock.
Speaker: you know, even though this was an element, yeah you know, we'd hoped would happen. and And there's a lot of pressure on it now that it is. You know, he better sell this. John better sell this. Right. Right. I mean, I can see some tie ins a little bit with tech because there is very much this.
Speaker: And we've we've gone over this in another show where there is this resentment for the business. And i think developers a lot of times you know feel really righteous when it's like, no, I'm standing up to the business. So i would imagine...
Speaker: as a developer, especially, or anyone who takes a lot of pride in their work, like they're thinking about maybe the people who are using the software. So I think that's the what Cody has done is like, no, i'm I'm thinking about the people out there who are watching.
Speaker: So I can see a little bit of an allegory there. Yeah, exactly. You've laid out from Cody's point of view how he is establishing himself as the hero, the face in this storyline. And it does tap into, you know, it's kind of an unfortunate reality that ah we have these these feelings where we perceive other parts of the company as this faceless enemy. Well, I mean, if your boss literally says sell your soul to the company, i think, yeah, that's.
Speaker: Yeah. And even if they they say something and what you feel like you're hearing is sell me your soul. Yeah. Something has gone terribly wrong there. So now we're going to go over to John Cena establishing himself as the the heel here okay in his first major, you know, promo speech after this betrayal moment.
Speaker: Now he's got to explain himself. Okay, so after he's been like, great job, you kept with the crowd, and then ha ha ha, now I'm going to beat you up, and him and The Rock beat this guy, Kendall, up.
Speaker: Exactly. So it's his first appearance after that, and John Cena comes out, his music is playing, the same triumphant horns, but instead of cheering him, they're booing him now, right?
Speaker: Okay. His usual smile is gone, his eyes are dead, and he proceeds to go on this riveting emotional tirade. You take and you take and you only care about yourselves!
Speaker: Now this isn't really what we were expecting. I mean, a lot of anticipation, as I mentioned, is is here. And what we're thinking is he would come out here, he'll have a new costume, you know, he makes music. So like, of course, he's going to have a new song. Like, these are the things we would normally expect to see, a whole motif.
Speaker: But he's not going to do any of that. He's going to start berating us for having expectations. I put my values on the line to make a very important choice in my life.
Speaker: And all you could think was, what do we get? What do we get? You get nothing.
Speaker: You get what you have earned. And what you have earned nothing. Nothing. You know, I think there's real emotion in this. Like, I don't think this is a performance. im I mean, I'm reading it as like, this is some pent up stuff that he has personally experienced.
Speaker: I know, right? I mean, obviously he's using it narratively, but you can't help but feel like there's something ah authentic about this. Like, these are...
Speaker: some of the feelings he was having when people you know were supposed to be cheering him and they were booing him, all the you know fan reactions over the years, are various other stresses of the business, right? he is ah He is channeling that into this performance.
Speaker: Yeah. My point is, no matter what I do, it is never enough and you should all be ashamed of yourself. um I don't know that I would have ever like sought out learning about professional wrestling.
Speaker: And it all, it's one of these things, it almost reminds me a little bit of empathy where it's like, people think it's one thing, but then it's like, no, there's a lot of technical nuance here when you, when you really dig in. And I think that's just another example of, you know, any skill, any any sport, any, you know, craft, any, like, there's so much hidden technical,
Speaker: ability and knowledge that's required to execute it. um Yeah. So this is interesting. Yeah. Obviously there's a physical aspect to it, but it's on some level more about how they make the story resonate and how they get you invested into the soap opera.
Speaker: And i I guess he knows what he's doing because i find myself very invested in this one. Yeah, there's definitely a bitterness, a resentment, a, like, objectification, i think, of, like, you're only seeing me as this character.
Speaker: and so that would be the... Kayfabe. Kayfabe. So that would be the kayfabe of, like, I'm this character, but he's shifting it into, the like, no, I'm a real person. So that, I think, is an interesting thing, too.
Speaker: But i um I would never expect a professional wrestler to say... You've never asked me how I feel. Yeah, I was struck by that yeah as well. And it's just a really compelling ah performance of of a kind of a hurt, bitter person lashing out. You have this therapy jargon being used throughout, ah you know, or misused as as people honestly do. Yeah, and I think this is something like, to bring it back to empathy on kind of a technical level, this is something that I think relates to people who give and give and give.
Speaker: um Adam Grant has a great book called Give and Take, where um people who have a like propensity for just being generous and being generous and giving and giving and giving, they are both the bottom performers and the top performers. And the difference is whether or not you have good boundaries.
Speaker: And, you know, I think what he's expressing and this this is burnout, right? This is like, I have given you everything. It's never good enough. And I think that a lot of people who identify as empaths or try to be empaths, like,
Speaker: Sometimes we don't take care of ourselves, right? And we don't say what we need. Like, I'm imagining if this is the first time he's he's ever said, you've never asked how I feel. People are like, i was supposed to, what? Right? And it can come off as like, I didn't know that's what I needed.
Speaker: I know that's all for the theater of it and everything. But I think this really speaks to me personally. I've been there. And then it does seem like I'm just kind of changing on a dime where like personality wise, where it's like, I've given, I've given, I've given, I've given. it I'm nice. I'm nice. I'm nice. I'm nice. I'm generous. I'm generous. I'm generous. And you don't.
Speaker: freaking care like and then i get angry and people are like whoa where'd that come from so i think that this is a very common experience for people who are very generous and kind of in life would identify with the face right instead of the heel um The in um give and take and Adam Grant's work, there were takers, which was the other side where it's like, I just expect people to give to me.
Speaker: Right. And I don't expect to have to give anything return. And then there was another one where it's matchers. um So it's like I give and then you give and then it's kind of like more of a tit for tat. So that's kind of what I'm seeing the dynamic play out here.
Speaker: And, you know, I'm curious to see what the crowd's reaction is after this. Yeah, and and you can already hear how intense, but it it just, it gets very intense. I mean, if you watch the entire 30 minute thing, ah you know, it's mostly crowd reaction.
Speaker: But in this next clip, like you just heard him a little bit ah tear into the people who, you know, weren't supporting him enough. So-called the Cena sucks people, but there's also the let's go Cena people, the people that were supporting him. He's going to turn on them too.
Speaker: And this is where it gets into like a more nefarious weaponization of empathy where it's like, I understand how you think and feel and I'm going to use that against you.
Speaker: Yeah. And we see this a lot. Like empathy can be absolutely used in it is an important ingredient in propaganda, in, you know, uh,
Speaker: It can be used for manipulation. i think that's one of the things in all the research I've done around empathy is just how much it can be weaponized. And so I think this is a really interesting example, because how much of it is John Cena like trying to manipulate the crowd?
Speaker: And how much is it of just like, I am so freaking frustrated that I don't feel understood. And that can sometimes come across as you're trying to manipulate me, especially if it's such a big personality shift.
Speaker: And I think that's one of the challenges with empathy is that elements of it can be used, it's especially that emotional connection and also that cognitive piece of knowing how somebody is likely to react.
Speaker: But I think what I'm hearing him say in this moment of bitterness is like, you don't have any compassion for me. That's the thing that's lacking. I don't feel a sense of belonging I've given and it hasn't been good enough. i imagine You know what? I sometimes feel like this with my kids.
Speaker: I think I've actually like, and we we describe it sometimes as the momster. I'm like, do you want the momster to come out? Because I just go like, I have had it.
Speaker: I do so much for you and you don't appreciate it. i think that any parent ah probably has gotten to that point at some point, of course, of their kids growing up.
Speaker: So, yeah, I think that this is a very relatable experience, even if you've never watched professional like wrestling. Yeah, it's that's a great point. And all right, so here we are turning on the supporters.
Speaker: You hear that world? The Sina sucks jack offs. They've already proven themselves awful people. I am about to tell you why the let's go Sina people are just as awful.
Speaker: um you You claim to support me? What have you Ever done? You. What have you?
Speaker: You. You. What have you ever done to support me, huh? Pointing at specific people in the crowd. And that person's like waving a sign like, I heart you.
Speaker: I know. He bought the merch and everything. What have you ever done for me? All you ever do is steal from me. You steal!
Speaker: You steal my personal moments! You steal my time! You have made me your friggin' toy! I am an object to you! You have made me the butt of a stupid invisible joke for 15 years and you still think it's funny! It is not funny!
Speaker: You know, just for the record, the Cena invisible joke absolutely is funny. It is pathetic! You... are pathetic. I'm not pathetic.
Speaker: I would say that's ah not how you win friends and influence people is by telling everyone. But I think it is relatable that when you're so emotionally dysregulated, this was another piece with empathy that I was really surprised at is that emotional regulation is such an important part of being able to empathize.
Speaker: And so if you are so angry or so betrayed where it's like, you're just spouting off your anger because you have to have this emotional release.
Speaker: You can't even see, like, you are doing something for me. yeah You are waving a, like, I heart you. i care about you. Like you're literally doing the thing that you, that he said he wasn't doing.
Speaker: But, you know, from his perspective, if he's that, ah if he's feeling that betrayed, that can be a really real feeling. an example of sentiment override.
Speaker: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because then, and this is another thing I'm guilty of, like emotional dysregulation is the hardest. know, we've talked about how there's kind of, in John Deesity's work on empathy, um he's got four different kind of elements that all work together in our bodies. So there's um emotions, there's reasoning, cognition, there's regulation. So being able to regulate like our physical state, but also our emotions. And then there's compassion, which is the motivation to actually care about somebody and help them.
Speaker: And so, you know, all of us, I think have ah different like empathy profile, right? For me, I tend to get very drawn in on the compassion side, but then I really struggle with the emotional regulation. Like I feel slighted very easily, like I'm super sensitive.
Speaker: And um when I feel like I'm in that state, even something that somebody says that's nice, I just am like, you're just saying that because blah, blah, blah. And like, we'll twist it. So, yeah, I think that negative sentiment override is is definitely important here.
Speaker: And just, you know, to point out, like, if he's feeling this angry and this betrayed, like, His cognition isn't able to kick in where he can then rationalize and and reason and say, oh, no, you do care about me. You do.
Speaker: You are focusing on my feelings like just anything that he observes is going to be through the lens of his betrayal. Yeah, kind of the opposite of assume positive intent, where yeah even if there are demonstrably positive things that that someone is doing, you're only able to see negativity in it.
Speaker: yeah And he's gonna dial it up a notch now. Okay. You use me as an excuse for your pathetic failure of a life.
Speaker: but Oh, wow. Now he's hurling insults, not just like you've hurt me, but it's now an us versus them thing. Yeah. And imagine, you know, you paid good money for tickets and yeah now you're being called a pathetic loser.
Speaker: I mean, I'm imagining in the K-fabe, K-fabe. This can be a really powerful point in the story because then it's like by...
Speaker: insulting all of the people who like him. There is no more factions. It's just everybody hates him. Right, right. He's uniting people by giving them a common enemy. Yeah. Which is him.
Speaker: And, you know, they were split on him. Now it's just going to be everyone against me. Yeah. But even that is in service to a larger narrative because they need to be against him in order to be, you know, for the person who is going to come and try to defeat him.
Speaker: Mm, which is the Cody person who was wearing the business suit and had the like Ken doll look. Right, Cody Rhodes the Ken doll. So at the end of the day, we're selling the match. We need to care very much yeah about whether Cody Rhodes is gonna defeat John Cena at WrestleMania for the championship. And, you know, it's just this this really deep emotional play that leads to pushing that. I mean, I came into this not invested at all. Yeah.
Speaker: I had seen very little wrestling in my life and i Yeah. barely have been able to tell you who Cody Rhodes was. But I find myself caring very much now about whether he's able to defend his title because John Cena is out here talking crazy about all of us.
Speaker: I think especially going back to the earlier scene, Cody stood up and was like, I'm not selling my soul because I've sold my soul to all of the people here.
Speaker: And including and so that's the everyone. There is no faction. It's not just the John Cena pro versus against. So now you've got this like. you know very clear ah emotional tie in with the audience.
Speaker: um This also makes me think of Emil Bruno's work on the empathy gap. With his work, the idea of rivalries was really important. So his work was around like, how do we get global peace.
Speaker: Right. And so how do we get Israeli and Palestinians to like have actual conversations with each other where they can listen? Right. And he did this was he's he's since passed away, which is very sad. He was very talented researcher.
Speaker: So this work, you know, it was about 10, 15 years old. But he talks very much like the research shows that if you pit people as rivals, as the us versus them,
Speaker: What happens is that empathy for the people who you resonate with, you're like, this person's like me, skyrockets. But people who are like them plummets.
Speaker: So you still have empathy. It's just not balanced. And so then that way, it you ah This happens in intense rivalries.
Speaker: And so what you have to do then is, you know, kind of transcend it and say, okay, well, we're all part of the same team. And what's interesting is that this ah kind of rivalry ah mentality in the lab, like when they've when they've researched this in the lab, it happens so quickly Where it's like you just assign somebody to a red or a blue team arbitrarily, then they feel this sense of like affinity. And you can observe this really quickly.
Speaker: But the other thing is that you can override it. So, you know, some people, the argument is, well, we're just made this way. And this is just how we think this is our default.
Speaker: But this is where the cognition and the emotional regulation side of things come in. Because if you're able to regulate, if you're able to have compassion and recognize the humanity in everyone, you know, those other important aspects of empathy are required, but they can happen. they these This is where it's the skill. This is where it's more learned behavior. So we're not...
Speaker: um We're not beholden to our like animal instincts, but it is very powerful in storytelling. And so that's what I see kind of narratively happening here is, you know, clearly defining the audience so that everyone's on the same page of who is with us, the audience, and who is against us.
Speaker: And then it's like you want to root. And I think the the technical aspect of empathy there would be the empathy gap. Yeah. And you're doing great, by the way. You know, and no idea. I won't say you'll never see this coming, but um you have no idea what you're going listening to.
Speaker: You've got to come up with your interpretations. And let's do ah one more and have Cena wrap it
Speaker: up. all you've ever done there for 25 years is sit on your ass and watch me be great. No more!
Speaker: This, this, everybody, including that one kid right there, it is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship. Ooh, now he's bringing like that kid, that innocent child.
Speaker: He's awful. Aw, dude, his face. Oh, that poor kid. This poor little adorable kid sitting there in a John Cena shirt and hat, minding his own business, singles him out, he says, you are a toxic relationship. Oh, my goodness. I hope afterwards he went up to and was like, it was just a joke.
Speaker: Like, I don't you're not really a toxic, horrible person. And this kid became like a huge meme. Actually, instantly there there were all these like viral graphics of that freeze frame, you know, but um the kid did make a video. OK. And he said it's not in English, but the translations roughly, you know,
Speaker: um John Cena will always be a hero to me. I was proud when he pointed at me. I didn't know he was going to crap on me, but I i understand he was in character.
Speaker: Okay. That is some really good emotional intelligence for who looks like maybe 10, 11? Right, something like that. And it really makes you reconsider, you know, what the the emotional sophistication is of the fan base.
Speaker: when yeah they're able to, you know, keep the the the different levels at which this is supposed to resonate straight, yeah yeah even if they're being pulled into it kind of unfairly. I'm curious if because there is such a clear delineation to the point where there's even terminology around it of like, this is real life and this is play acting. Yeah.
Speaker: Um, if having that very stark and clearly defined divide, I would imagine makes it easier to be like, oh yeah, he had to do that. That was part of the story. I wasn't taking it personally. Yeah. I kind of, because I know there is a lot of times where you suspend your disbelief, but to the point where you get so sucked in.
Speaker: And you get so sucked into one person's story. You like aren't able to differentiate your own sense of self. This is um some other ah research around empathy where the the way that like a really important aspect of being able to empathize is to have a clear sense of self and a clear self concept and recognizing other people's behavior is not necessarily my fault or like a reflection on me, like I am a different person than, know, and when you get to the point of enmeshment where it's, that can really um be challenging. and I think in a lot of storytelling, especially in movies, the idea is to blur that sense of belief, that sense of disbelief,
Speaker: really hard so that you feel like you're actually part of the story um but it seems like in professional wrestling that's a very clear like that's a part of the kind of program is yeah this is fake we all know it's fake and it's kind of funny and we go we know it's entertainment like we're not going to get so caught up in it i'm not ah i don't know if i'm ah hypotheses incorrectly around that. But you're probably true in some capacity. There's a whole spectrum like Kayfabe used to be treated as a more strict separation.
Speaker: And there was actually an event called the Montreal Screwjob, which There is Radiolab episode about that. It is quite good. Might be good listen after this one here. Basically, certain events have made the stage nature of it kind of undeniable. And so they have had to acknowledge that.
Speaker: an interplay in between, you know, real life and what we're presenting. and And hence now there's a more complex level of yeah storytelling where we're wondering what parts of it are inspired by real life.
Speaker: Well, I imagine too, like John Cena is like, look, I'm still going to do my make a wish stuff. I can't be perceived like I would have to change my entire personality and everything that I stand for, know, but I'm happy to play along in this narrative because in order for that to be really bought in, there would have to be even more substantive change behind the scenes.
Speaker: Well, I think some people would say he does have to go to that extent. know, I don't know if he's he's going to. he He is the person who has done the most make a wish, you know, interventions as as anyone has. so you know, over 600.
Speaker: Some people would say that he has to let someone else do that okay now while he's in this space. um Kayfabe is something that, you know, kind of is kept at all times, at least traditionally. and That is relaxed a little bit. But yeah if you were an enemy of someone in like the storyline, that would mean you're not seen with them in public.
Speaker: It's um you know, you you act differently when fans approach you and and so forth. So there's this paradoxical nature of it where even though we're acknowledging the scripted nature of it,
Speaker: maintaining that illusion, at least the plausibility, the believability of the illusion is still very precious. And certain, you know, events have made that interplay with real life undeniable.
Speaker: But then we take that dynamic and and use it. Like if we need to turn someone heel here, let's look at using the pieces on the board. yeah Let's take what people know about the situation and ah try to make that part of the dynamic. Yeah.
Speaker: This was really fun. This was super creative, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and hopefully this was entertaining. I like the idea of a palate cleanser. I never would have thought of using professional wrestling as a way to explore concepts of empathy, but I think it was really great. I learned a lot, and I think really what it comes down to is that empathy is such an important part of the human experience, regardless of what domain it's in. So we tend to talk about it in terms of like how it exists in the tech industry, right?
Speaker: But that doesn't mean it's only in the tech industry. It doesn't mean it's only in the helping professions like teaching or nursing or therapists, right? It's present in places that you wouldn't necessarily think of like professional wrestling. So...
Speaker: This was a really neat exploration. I don't know if I'm going to like watch professional wrestling after this, but I am glad that I've learned more. I have a friend who's really into it and has tried to describe some of these things and it hasn't really landed. So now that I know some of the more details, you did a great job of explaining ah kind of the framework of everything.
Speaker: Well, thank you. I'll let you know what happens at WrestleMania. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You can just give me the highlights. I'll be happy with that. Yeah. I was just watching these promos getting sucked in. was like, I've got to text Andrea. That was my first thought for whatever reason. Yeah. And you're like, I've got a podcast and I'm not going to tell you anything about it I was like, okay.
Speaker: All right. Should we play out? Yeah, I think so. i mean get why don't you do the outro? Okay. Okay, that's only fair, i guess. Empathy in Tech is a fiscally sponsored project to Superbloom Design, a US 501c3 nonprofit.
Speaker: Together, we're on a mission to accelerate the responsible adoption of empathy in the tech industry by closing the empathy skills gap by treating empathy as a technical skill, teaching technical empathy through accessible, affordable, and actionable training, building community and breaking down harmful stereotypes and tropes, and promoting technical empathy for ethics, equity, and social justice.
Speaker: Learn more at empathyandtech.com. Thank you for listening. we'll see you in the next episode. Bye.
