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Empathy and Logic: Facing Fears
65 Plays16 days ago
In this vulnerable impromptu session, Andrea examines the roots of discomfort she experiences trying to absorb mathematical jargon. Ray rethinks his approach, emphasizing that the true role of logic should be to bring us together rather than push us apart.
LINKS
- First-order logic - Wikipedia
- Euclid's Proof that √2 is Irrational
- Types of Reasoning
- Legacy Code Rocks community and podcast
- Episode: Are GUIs Anti-social?!
- Episode: They Called Me a Turnip! With Jeremy Adamson
- Video by Ray on First-order Logic using Z3 prover
HOSTS
- Andrea Goulet LinkedIn | andreagoulet.com
- Ray Myers LinkedIn | Craft vs Cruft on YouTube
ABOUT EMPATHY IN TECH
Empathy in Tech is on a mission to accelerate the responsible adoption of empathy in the tech industry by:
- Closing the empathy skills gap by treating empathy as a technical skill.
- Teaching technical empathy through accessible, affordable, actionable training.
- Building community and breaking down harmful stereotypes and tropes.
- Promoting technical empathy for ethics, equity, and social justice.
Learn more at empathyintech.com
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Transcript
Logic as a Barrier
00:00:01
Speaker
I've never really felt comfortable around the people who I say use logic as a weapon.
00:00:13
Speaker
The purpose of logic in my eyes is to be able to bring us together. We want to be able to think clearly and to be able to clearly communicate those thoughts.
00:00:27
Speaker
If it ends up being used in a way that is building up walls, then something's gone wrong somewhere.
Introducing Empathy in Tech
00:00:38
Speaker
Welcome to Empathy in Tech, where we explore the deeply technical side of empathy. And the critical need for empathy in technology. I'm Andrea Goulet. And I'm Ray Myers.
00:00:50
Speaker
So, there's a conversation we were having, and you suggested ah to actually just make a little episode of it. Not normally yeah something that I would have broached on air right away. Yeah.
00:01:04
Speaker
And you were kind of unprepared for this, so this is going to be really interesting.
Empathy and Collaboration
00:01:08
Speaker
This is an opportunity to kind of take some of the abstract ideas that we talk about on this show and kind of demonstrate how it works in real life.
00:01:16
Speaker
Okay. First of all, like we've been working on this podcast. We've been meeting weekly, right? We've gotten to know each other as colleagues kind of over the past year or so. And what I think has really emerged from our you know collaboration is a really healthy demonstration of empathy, like in a workplace environment.
00:01:37
Speaker
The function of our role has been what kind of topics do we want to talk about? And you're very interested in formal logic. And so in the process of working with you, I have been exposed to more formal logic than I have in a long time.
00:01:54
Speaker
but yeah At one point, I think it was a couple weeks ago, you were explaining a proof to me and it had a lot of different steps. And halfway through, I was just like, Ray, I can't understand this. You lost me. can't understand this.
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, and I did that a little bit today too and Then you stopped me because I've always said you know, oh, it's the way my brain works You know, I have I have some memory disabilities that are challenging for me um So I think there is an aspect of truth to that but then you so In a way that was not offensive and was insightful Shared something about myself and I'm i'm curious I'd like for you to pick it up from here.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm glad that it worked out as well as I'd hoped, you know, because when you're going to be trying to like reach into someone's brain and suggesting this, this maybe is what's going on in your head. Like that, that's, ah you know, that's not always the nicest thing to do. You want to be able to read the room if you're going to do that.
00:02:54
Speaker
From my point of view, what happened was in our previous conversation, we were looking at something which is a relatively simple proof. It was the the proof that the square root of two is irrational and is ah a pretty good introductory example of understanding him of mathematical proof.
00:03:12
Speaker
um But it was using a notation that I knew you weren't familiar with, but it's actually like a very widely used and pretty simple
Simplifying Logic for Non-Experts
00:03:21
Speaker
notation. Like it's much simpler than the notation you've used before in math. Like you you've done calculus. Long time ago, but yes.
00:03:30
Speaker
Actually, all that's going on here is first order logic notation. And there's only like six symbols and they almost all of them point to concepts you already know. I tried to like, let me just walk you through line by line. Like these are all statements you would understand. Yeah. And I think I even stopped here. i was like, Ray, I don't even know what that you're talking about. yeah Yeah. And I just did not get very far.
00:03:51
Speaker
And i realized like, okay, this was the wrong place in time to do that. But, you know, you said something which you've said before, which kind of struck me because I just it just doesn't make sense to me, which is that you you think your your brain just doesn't work like this.
Trauma Responses to Logical Discourse
00:04:07
Speaker
And, you know, we've talked about this. You've done calculus. Yeah. And you you ran a software company for 10 years and such a small amount of unfamiliar symbols. Really, there's just no way you're not capable of doing it.
00:04:20
Speaker
And just sort of reading the way you're reacting and and comparing it to some experiences that I've had, you know, reactions that I've had. What I said was this seems less like a learning style issue and more like you're having a trauma response.
00:04:35
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. And because i trusted you, because we'd been in so many of those situations, I was able to go, oh my gosh, you're right Let's get the microphone and we can process some trauma on air.
00:04:51
Speaker
set Which is not really where I thought that was going to go. No, I think I think think some of this is that this is an OK trauma to process.
Emotions vs. Logic in Understanding
00:04:58
Speaker
We'll just set it that way where this is like a micro trauma. It's something that comes up a lot. But, you know, I have been working on processing this a lot, you know, kind of in my own life.
00:05:09
Speaker
And so I think it's well scoped to talk through some of the reactive feelings that we can have around communication and empathy.
00:05:20
Speaker
And for me, I think I really struggle when people use very formal logic to communicate their ideas.
00:05:35
Speaker
There is an element of I have memory disabilities. I have like legitimate challenges where it is harder for me, I think, to keep that information in my mind while I'm navigating through this.
00:05:51
Speaker
So I think like hearing you walk through kind of all of the step by step, I do think that was a little bit of that where it's like my working my my cognitive load is at capacity. I can no longer absorb more information in that moment.
00:06:04
Speaker
But I have made comments of, i this isn't how my brain works. I just can't understand this. My feelings about myself and my ability to understand things that are written in logical proofs is an impediment to our ability to collaborate.
00:06:23
Speaker
And so it's something that, you know, this is an example of like the emotions within myself. They're an impediment. And so having the empathy and building the empathy, it's like, oh let's actually address that and maybe we can resolve it.
00:06:37
Speaker
And even if we can't resolve how I understand things, we can get to know each other and then adapt our communication or maybe, you know,
00:06:48
Speaker
figure out like this is what could work and we might even create something new and amazing like this podcast right so um yeah I think you are right in terms of it's a trauma response and I think that this really heavily relates to the cultural idea of empathy is a soft skill and math is a hard skill and logic is a hard skill.
Empathy vs. Logic in Society
00:07:12
Speaker
Right. And I grew up with, oh, you're so good at empathy, right? You're like Deanna Troy. You can just read people's emotions and, you know, was kind of socialized that way. I was good at math, you know, and all the tests I've taken. It's like, yeah, I'm i'm good to both.
00:07:29
Speaker
But I've never really felt comfortable around the people
00:07:38
Speaker
I say use logic as a weapon. And I've been in many situations where I feel I feel like I'm trying to communicate an idea and then I'm just constantly told I'm wrong, but I don't understand why I'm wrong.
00:08:00
Speaker
And then It's basically like, well, you have no proof because it's just feelings so they don't count. and And it literally has just felt like i'm I'm being cut down and told that I'm not smart, that I don't know what I'm talking about, and that the way that I view the world and the way I interact with the world is wrong or inferior. Right.
Strengths in Logic and Empathy
00:08:28
Speaker
um Yeah, and that's that's traumatizing. And I also know that this goes the other way. So my partner Scott, we've talked about this a lot. He had the other side where he feels socially he's been told, you know, he he's somebody who really understands the proof and like computer scientist, but he's been told, oh, you don't have social skills.
00:08:50
Speaker
And things like, you knew what I meant. And he's like, no, literally, I didn't know what you meant. That's why I asked follow up question. Right. Or, you know, you know, things like read between the lines and and things like that, he felt has been used as a weapon for him. Like, it's just semantics.
00:09:08
Speaker
He's like, no, I really care about precision. Right. And I've learned over the years how harmful some of those statements can be when I don't mean them at all. And I think that, you know, that idea of like we're unintentionally continuing to draw these lines is important.
00:09:24
Speaker
um So, yeah, I think that's kind of where I came from. um interested to hear your thoughts. Well, there's an irony here because the purpose of logic in my eyes is to be able to bring us together.
00:09:42
Speaker
is is a communication tool as well as a thinking tool. We want to be able to think clearly and to be able to clearly communicate those thoughts.
00:09:53
Speaker
That is the purpose of this endeavor. So if it ends up being used in a way that is building up walls, then something's gone wrong somewhere, you know? And when you take a step back and say like, so it wasn't why we had logic so we could just throw something in people's face.
00:10:12
Speaker
And I think you probably encounter situations where you were presenting something that was just like, it was something that they didn't want to accept. And so they were giving it a higher burden of proof all of a sudden.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah. Or a lot times, like, I'm an external processor. I like to, like, talk about ideas out loud before they're fully formed. Like, hearing myself say something really helps me um understand my ideas better.
00:10:39
Speaker
yeah. So a lot times when I talk about things, they're totally half-baked and, like, don't... Yeah. I haven't done the thorough research. It's more just, like, I'm exploring these ideas and maybe a lot of other people do that in their head.
00:10:51
Speaker
And when it gets, like, really critical in that stage, it's like, but wait, wait, I... I don't know. i don't know if that's okay. Instead of it being like an inquiry of here's something to consider. It's no, here's why that's wrong.
00:11:03
Speaker
And that feels disorienting. And I think that would be an example where maybe logic isn't the right tool for that conversation is what I'm hearing you say.
Collaborative Logical Discussions
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, um well, you know, we're not always ready to state the maximally clear, well-defined version of what we're trying to say. We're trying, you know, if you're in a conversation, you should be willing to like go on ah on a journey with someone. and And sometimes I will see someone.
00:11:28
Speaker
I mean, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So I see people say ridiculous things all the time. And I have actually like tried to coach myself on, you know, if I see something that I specifically want to engage in, where I feel something ridiculous has been said, like, how would I approach that?
00:11:43
Speaker
um And so I usually i am. Hey, let's go on the journey. Let me take this seriously. What you're trying to say. You think you're saying something true of something clearly.
00:11:55
Speaker
Like, yeah, what do you mean by that? Do you think that means that, like, you know, start asking them some questions, even if my visceral reaction was, okay you're you're completely out of pocket right now. Like if I'm going to engage at all, like, um you know, you you want to be in a place where you can you can be having a conversation.
00:12:15
Speaker
If someone's not trying to state a proof, then, you know, treating them as though they've stated an incorrect one, you know, it's not going to help anything. Yeah, and I think like I just kind of wanted to talk through what what conditions needed to occur in our professional relationship in order for me to feel comfortable.
Trust and Communication
00:12:36
Speaker
and even like seeing that you're not critique, but Scott and I when we were in couples counseling, um which is a very highly recommended thing. That's the highest thing that we recommend anybody who's a business partner like – so couples counseling Because you learn so much about communication.
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah, we were business partners first and then got married. And so we were in ah counseling. And the description of that was I'm holding up a mirror. So that was sometimes used as a I i just want to hold up a mirror because I see something about you and I'm meaning to be objective. This is not meaning to be a criticism. I just want to reflect back what I see and just inform you about it.
00:13:18
Speaker
So I think that was one way, the way that you approached it, you didn't say the words, let me hold up a mirror. But that was, you're like, you said something similar. It's like, do you mind if you know, give you an insight of your behavior and kind of something and that created the space for me to listen and go, and okay, yeah, I'm interested in what you have to say.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah, so um a couple other things I tried to do there, right? Like, i I'm pretty sure I couched it as, you know, what what it struck me as, like, you're saying that this is the explanation for it, is that your brain just doesn't work that way. but What it struck me is it might be, you know, and so I'm i'm making it, you know, about I'm not making an ah unequivocal statement.
00:13:59
Speaker
You know, um i i know you, but don't tell me about you. I know, you know, that's that's not a great thing to do. But also, um I didn't say it in the moment, like even if I had had that that thought at the time, which I probably didn't right away, i i think I needed to, you know, step back and unpack like.
00:14:19
Speaker
I kind of wound her up there. I didn't, you know, like what would happen there? Cause that's not how I wanted that to go. ah But yeah even if I had thought of that in the moment, um it wouldn't have been the right moment.
00:14:30
Speaker
Like, but neither of us were feeling the way we needed to, in order to have that conversation at that point. So coming back and, you know, like, okay, we, we both seem to be in a good mood today and pretty relaxed.
00:14:43
Speaker
um You know, it was also, I think a good ah move there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's another thing, too. So when we were in the moment and you were like, here's this proof. And I'm like, oh, like.
00:14:56
Speaker
it felt very intimidating. The hardest thing for me to do is just listen to a list. I have to engage at least two senses in order to process any new information.
00:15:07
Speaker
So just hearing it, it was like, I became, it got to the point where all I was hearing were like mom, mom, kind of like yeah Charlie Brown. Like I literally could not process any meaning behind the words you were saying. And so when I noticed it at that point, know,
00:15:25
Speaker
I felt comfortable enough to not have to hide pretend like I knew what you were saying. I felt comfortable enough to interrupt you and say, Ray, I don't understand this.
00:15:37
Speaker
Right. And I think I tried to say, this isn't you. This isn't how you're presenting it. This is something that is going on with me that I am struggling to internally process. And you were like, I could tell that surprised you and maybe offended you little because I did like it was a hard interrupt. It was not like, can I get it? Well, you know, I thought I was being all relatable and, you know, I had to realize how much I was failing at what I was trying to do.
00:16:06
Speaker
A number of things I thought of later that like, OK, if we were really going to step through this, this is what could have worked better. You know, like, OK, let's type. Let's type out instead of me just verbally. hmm. I'm very verbal.
00:16:18
Speaker
It's easy for me like, oh yeah, well, if we were to just read this giant equation out, it would be blah, blah, blah. That's not necessarily going to help. But if we just looked at it, you know, um but whatever, without dissecting how we could do that better. Just, it was a jarring moment that you're talking about me realize, oh yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm having the opposite effect I wanted to have.
00:16:39
Speaker
Did that internalize anything for you? Like in that moment? Yeah. Well, yeah, because I mean, I'm on a mission, you know, to ah try and help people think about software better.
00:16:50
Speaker
And ah this includes like getting, you know, ah programmers to look at formal methods and know, you know, they're accustomed to one set of symbols and this is just another set. ah You know, I, I was in that same position, like, Hey, we use ampersands for, and why are you using that carrot?
00:17:07
Speaker
I'm scared. I don't like this. i you know, like I was there, right? Like, um And it it makes me rethink, like, how should we even be approaching this, you know? who Yeah.
00:17:18
Speaker
And I think walking back even further, I think one of the reasons that we were able to successfully navigate these hard conversations that end up like this is where empathy can really be a collective superpower and help us, you know, create better processes, understand each other differently.
00:17:38
Speaker
But I think, too, there's shared history and there's respect. Like, you know, we've been following each other's work for a long time. We were participating in an online community, Legacy Code Rocks, together for several years prior to this.
00:17:50
Speaker
um And so, you know, a little bit about my background, definitely professionally, not as much personally, but we've been able to share some tidbits here and there. And you know about some, you know, personal things that have been really, have really affected my life as, you know, we've, we've gone through this. And so, you know, I think that ah me being comfortable, because I don't share that with everybody that, right.
00:18:17
Speaker
But me feeling comfortable enough. And also, this is a relationship that I want to invest in. Because the more comfortable we are with each other, the better the podcast will be.
00:18:29
Speaker
So it's worth putting in the time to get to know each other. and you know, it's not a transactional relationship. So you also had that shared history. And there was a lot of trust in that, you know, situation that you could then draw on.
00:18:46
Speaker
So I think if If I had just met you.
Gendered Coding Experiences
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah. And you had told me that i maybe would have been offended. Right. So it's not his it's not just the words you say. It's also the context in which they are said.
00:19:00
Speaker
And if you had said that to me last week, I may have been offended. Right. I don't know. But yeah, today i was like, that's so good. I also probably wasn't in the headspace at the time, you know, to, to have, uh, to approach it very, very well. Right. Like, cause I, yeah, like you say, I was having that sort of jarring moment of like, oh yeah, this, this, I, I'm not, I'm not doing, I'm not doing good thing here. I thought, it's, um, yeah, but so something else you you mentioned earlier also strikes me then I know a lot to wrap up.
00:19:31
Speaker
um you talked about like a lot of your early coding experiences being really frustrating. You, you feeling really talked down to, and like, that's really unfortunate.
00:19:43
Speaker
And I, I realized that I have, um you know, we're really psychoanalyzing today. Like For me, it's like it's a parental relationship. Like I had a really um have still a really good relationship with my mother.
00:19:57
Speaker
And she was the first person to teach me to program. Like we had a PC junior in like the late 80s or something. I'm realizing like I have a lineage of very safe people. experiences when I'm seeing these new syntax error and, you know, PC junior basic and it doesn't say anything except syntax error, no context. It's just yelling at you in all caps that you're wrong. And now you got to figure out why.
00:20:22
Speaker
But like, you know, i'm I'm here with my mother and, you know, like yeah i'm I'm a kid playing with a toy and that's where it all all comes from me. it It takes a whole lot for me not to feel safe and OK and comfortable.
00:20:35
Speaker
in environment where there's code. Cause it's like, it's like a kid in my crib with my favorite toy almost, you know, it's a comfort space. yeah It's easy for me to forget that that's just not the grounding other people have with us.
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah. And I think like for me, we had of an episode about GUIs versus command line, like command line interfaces. And I, I went over that there where i grew up with Macintoshes in the eighties where you didn't have a command line.
00:21:06
Speaker
And all of my programming, because I used different systems where I was creating Boolean logic and using complex databases and doing all these queries and stuff.
00:21:17
Speaker
But I never had the, like, I was just doing the thing. I felt like I was a power user of a software tool. I did not at any point feel I was programming until I was in my late 20s. And Scott was like, oh, you're actually really good at this stuff. Well, you'd be the partner in my software company because, know,
00:21:34
Speaker
you have a business background and you can clearly learn this. And remember being like, I don't know how to code what that you're crazy. I, because every time I'd seen something, think there's also the cultural piece too, where I'm, you know, identify as a woman and the experience of growing up like that, you know,
00:21:57
Speaker
I didn't feel like it was a toy. I felt like it was something that it was like, you're not allowed to use, ah you know, the game, the war games movie. It's like girls aren't allowed in the computer lab because you're going to distract everybody. And that's like literally a line from the movie. So feeling like this is a culture where you are not welcome.
00:22:14
Speaker
And I definitely know women where it's like, but this is where I belong because I love math. I was never like that. was like, I'm ass good. Like it's useful. But I ended up going down the communication route. Have you ever experienced, um you know kind of a visceral response to how you
Perceptions of Intelligence
00:22:30
Speaker
communicate? And, you know, do you feel like you have any experiences or situations that feel particularly sensitive to you?
00:22:38
Speaker
Usually I'm the one putting my foot in my mouth. Like yeah i have mostly a reputation now for being very level headed and patient and clear. And, you know, someone even said I seem like an introvert ah recently and it's like, wow, that's just like my self restraint is working out.
00:22:54
Speaker
This is going, you know, because you know, just by by instinct, we're not bound to be who we start out. Right. Right. I tend to be very um impulsive and I have mood swings and I'm impatient and I ah love jargon.
00:23:09
Speaker
And i you know, I've just realized like, well, the result I want to have is, is that I relate to people differently. And so I've, I've just worked on it a lot. um I think something that comes to mind is sometimes i will,
00:23:23
Speaker
explain something and someone's reaction to it is simply to say that I seem really smart or that I'm, so I'm smarter than them. And I felt like that wasn't what I was trying to do.
00:23:38
Speaker
I have felt that. And I have said that, you know, I didn't talk about that to just make you feel that I'm smarter than you. You know, like I, I, I, I wanted to express an idea I was excited about. And so what did I do wrong? Where did I go wrong? That like the main thing someone takes away from it is this person is or thinks they are smarter than me, you know?
00:24:02
Speaker
That makes me think of our conversation with Jeremy Adamson in the episode, You Called Me a Turnip. And that was exactly his thing. He was like, this is great. I'm communicating so clearly. And the first thing was, he's a turnip. What he did was show that he was better at math than me.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, it can be really hard when you have this sense of inferiority. um And I do think a lot of this is cultural because empathy has generally been seen as irrelevant and soft skills, especially in the computer science industry.
Reasoning Types and Applications
00:24:34
Speaker
like, eh.
00:24:35
Speaker
like ah No one needs that. It's now just starting to change. um But there has been, like Richard Feynman had a thing in the 1980s, and it's like, no, it's it is about proofs, right?
00:24:48
Speaker
One thing that has helped me as I navigate kind of a lot of these things is recognizing that there are different types of reasoning and that there are different types of logic. Mm-hmm.
00:25:01
Speaker
And I didn't know this, but this nuance really helped me. um So the first one is deductive, which is when you see a lot of the proofs. It's like you're trying to get something to be provable, like a true or a false, right?
00:25:14
Speaker
And that's deductive. Inductive is, hey, i have a lot of little data sets, like data points here. I want to extract a pattern out of them. And then there's abductive, which is essentially scientific discovery, which is the process of developing new questions.
00:25:31
Speaker
You're testing hypotheses and eliminating possibilities and then going, well, that wasn't it, so maybe it's this. And this is the type of reasoning that doctors use when they're trying to diagnose something that's complex.
00:25:45
Speaker
And just knowing, oh, I feel super comfortable in the abduct. Like that is the way I navigate the world. But it's seen sometimes as just intuition or just a, you know, like what's that based on? And abductive, you can't.
00:26:02
Speaker
Like by definition, you can't create it as a as a provable thing. And knowing that distinction has really helped me because then it's like, oh, I'm i'm not being irrational.
00:26:13
Speaker
It's just the type of logic that I feel really comfortable with is a different type of logic than other people feel comfortable with. And there's no good or better. It's just about the situation. All to say, yeah, there there are lots of different kinds of of thinking. And sometimes people learn a couple of them and believe they've learned them all.
00:26:32
Speaker
But really, it's like it's it's a good thing to learn a wide variety of types of thinking and then to be comfortable switching between them. This is what ah this is what the situation calls for.
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and I think this gets back to like the places when I was first learning how to code, I remember i was taking a bootcamp class or something.
Challenges in Coding Education
00:26:52
Speaker
And I was trying to form associations because I was an adult learner. And like, you know, I think it was, you know, they were talking about the MVC, right? Model view controller. And I was like, I, what is this thing? I don't like, this makes no sense to me. I can't, it doesn't anchor to anything I already know because I haven't been coding since I was five.
00:27:10
Speaker
So when I was asking about it, The instructor got really impatient. I have had so many teachers just get really impatient with the number of questions I had, right?
00:27:21
Speaker
But it was like, just do the exercises and eventually you'll figure it out. I get like, we don't want to be disruptive, but it just felt really like this is the only way to learn.
00:27:33
Speaker
And I remember Scott, too, like because I kept asking um all of these different questions because I'm trying to form associations. And he made a comment, watch which actually I found this one really funny. He's like, Andrea, I think what you're trying to do is understand the entire history of computer science so that you can write a method.
00:27:57
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, that's kind of how I like to learn. But also recognizing that's terribly inefficient. and And sometimes you do. But I think that's some of it too, is like, if I if i feel like I don't have the space for exploration, i can feel really, really boxed in and very threatened. So that's why I think that your comment about, you know, it being a trauma response felt like that's That's what it feels like sometimes like when people are logicking me.
00:28:28
Speaker
And I think there's other times where like people feel like, oh, you're intuiting me and saying, well, why can't you just believe this? And there's no evidence. And it's that can feel threatening.
00:28:40
Speaker
This was great.
Closing the Empathy Skills Gap
00:28:41
Speaker
Thank you, Ray, for just being an awesome person and an awesome collaborator. And I'm glad that we got to share with our listeners a little bit behind the scenes today and hopefully folks learn something. And if this was an interesting conversation, let us know.
00:28:56
Speaker
We absolutely are interested in producing content that you find helpful. valuable and you know finding new ways to express the things that are our goals here at empathy in tech any last words you want to say ray you know despite what some people say not everyone does need code in their life but if people do need code in their life i think we should help them along yeah you want to play us out Thanks so much for listening, everyone. This is, I'm glad that I got to process this a little bit. And Ray, I'm really glad that we got to have this insight. And I'm glad that we got to share this with you. And just as a reminder, Empathy in Tech is on a mission to accelerate the responsible adoption of empathy in the tech industry by doing four things. Closing the empathy skills gap by treating empathy as a technical skill.
00:29:45
Speaker
Teaching technical empathy through accessible, affordable, and actionable training. Building community and breaking down harmful stereotypes and tropes. and promoting technical empathy for ethics, equity, and social justice. So if you found this conversation interesting, head over to empathyintech.com to keep the conversation going and join our community of compassionate technologists. Thanks again for listening, and we will see you in the next episode.