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Hardcore Soft Skills with Yadi Caro
24 Plays15 hours ago
Yadi Caro, host of the Hardcore Soft Skills podcast joins us to discuss her experience cultivating high-performing teams and organizations, which she's developed through 15 years working with developers and engineers in the US Military.
LINKS
- Hardcore Soft Skills podcast
- Yadi's LinkedIn
- Yadi's courses
- Team of Teams by General Stanley McChrystal
- Turn The Ship Around by Captain David Marquet
HOSTS
- Andrea Goulet LinkedIn | andreagoulet.com
- Ray Myers LinkedIn | Craft vs Cruft on YouTube
ABOUT EMPATHY IN TECH
Empathy in Tech is on a mission to accelerate the responsible adoption of empathy in the tech industry by:
- Closing the empathy skills gap by treating empathy as a technical skill.
- Teaching technical empathy through accessible, affordable, actionable training.
- Building community and breaking down harmful stereotypes and tropes.
- Promoting technical empathy for ethics, equity, and social justice.
Learn more at empathyintech.com
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Transcript
Effective Team Collaboration
00:00:00
Speaker
So that's how I see like a high-performing team, not just that they are able to like meet the task in a fast way and they did the task, but also that they were able to collaborate together effectively. They enjoy working with each other and therefore have the good um results that regularly will meet the expectations from an end user.
Introduction to 'Empathy in Tech'
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to Empathy in Tech, where we explore the deeply technical side of empathy. And the critical need for empathy in technology I'm Andrea Goulet.
00:00:37
Speaker
of experience working with teams of developers and engineers in the US military. She's enthusiastic about launching high performing teams and transforming organizations to break silos, improve collaboration, of hardcore soft skills. Yadi, thanks for coming on the show.
00:01:00
Speaker
Thank you both. It's very exciting to be here. I love the mission that you have with this podcast.
Yadi's Career Transformation
00:01:06
Speaker
Awesome. so ah To kick things off, let's hear a little bit about you and how you got interested in helping your software teams improve their collaboration. What's the story there? so yeah so i yeah When I started, I worked a lot with the Department of Defense.
00:01:23
Speaker
um Basically, so back when I started school, it was like journalism, and then I switched into ah working with the Department of Defense as a consultant. And as I was ah with that particular company, I was at the time transitioning to working a lot with with software teams and tech teams. And I'm not a coder myself, but I was the person who will help the teams. I did different roles, either as a business analyst type person who will gather requirements or working a lot on the customer side of things.
00:01:59
Speaker
and helping. ah So I really enjoy working and and I was mostly fascinated by all the work that the software developers did and the engineers and all the people on the tech side that were working and as contractors or military as well in the Department of Defense.
Podcast Creation and Organizational Psychology
00:02:15
Speaker
So I always enjoy helping them make great stuff because I i see them as, you know, and all the people that know how to develop great things from coding, develop, a like engineer or something. I'm always fascinated by that. And I figure out with my skills in terms of.
00:02:32
Speaker
helping them um achieve that either through how to enable productivity within the team, give them tools to plan the work or how to help translate any needs from customers to the developer and vice versa and just bridge those gaps. So I really enjoy that part. And that's with the, as I work in in different organizations with the deputy department of defense, I work with ah the European command, I work with the um with the Southern command. I eventually recently, a few years ago, started more working into the coaching space, which as a, with agile frameworks, particularly, but more than frameworks, I was just ah very excited to work with the part of how to make a great team work together and not only among themselves, but also like with the other parts of the organization, which is something that we tend to forget. So, so yeah, I really enjoy that part of, of
00:03:26
Speaker
helping, and that's what I've been driving driving my education towards. That's why I started working with, first of all, creating the podcast because I wanted to work with that part of like the how do we master those non-technical skills to make stuff happen, like you know how to collaborate, communicate effectively as a team, and also the studying organizational psychology because of the aspect of how do people can work together effectively. so so yeah that's kind but That interest of my of of mine has been driving my decision into like how do i how do I help these teams work better because they make great stuff happen.
Empathy in Military Organizations
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. and I'm curious because
00:04:07
Speaker
you know Empathy is not the first thing that a lot of people associate with the military. And so I'm curious about how does this show up in your environment and why do you think that it's important? Yeah. And I know but when people think of the military as like, you know, tough guys, banging doors and things like that. And working with the military organizations, with all these people, like all the services like Navy and Marines and Army and and all the others,
00:04:37
Speaker
you realize that there's there's a whole lot of empathy involved in the work as they go to different, as they're deployed to different locations to be able to kind of like, they the one they standard they're sent with a particular mission, not necessarily like, hey, kill the bad guy, but it it's a a lot of the missions in the military is part of like humanitarian assistance, provide support, help different,
00:05:05
Speaker
help the local community in a lot of areas. So there's a lot of that. And even and there's a lot of leadership development within the military because as a person, like any soldier or any any individual comes in, no matter with the ranks on lower level, higher level, you have to learn how to integrate into a new team. You don't know where you're going to be sent to.
00:05:30
Speaker
So you're going to be sent to a new team. You're going to be sent to work. You have to learn how to work with people and make very complicated stuff happen. Either could it be like something engineering related or just like some ah logistics related or technical related. So they have to shift their mindset into like, what's the task at hand? Not only am I in a place that it's like completely foreign to me, whatever that may be, either in the States or elsewhere.
00:05:56
Speaker
but also have too much with a group of people, how to make things work together. So even if they don't, may not say it out loud in the sense of like be empathetic, it's more like there's a whole lot of empathy empathy required to to be able to to kind of ah blend in with the community, with their new team, and make stuff happen.
Decentralizing Decision-Making in the Military
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, so speaking of how people work together, there's a term I'd like to talk about a bit called command and control. And people use it to describe kind of an anti pattern about how and teams can be structured, but often they will ah refer to it in the sense that, well, that's not something we should be doing in in the corporate world. That's what they do in the military. But the people who who characterize it that way don't actually have experience working with people in the military as you do.
00:06:50
Speaker
So, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit, of if you've encountered that work style, what it means to you, and you know how does that relate to how the military operates?
00:07:02
Speaker
Well, yeah, absolutely. Because it's ah it's very, you know, military, it's very bureaucratic sort of environment. You have to know, like, the levels of who, you know, are you talking with? Or say it's Colonel, are you talking like, it's all very bureaucratic in that sense, but also command and control what you refer to. Yeah, it's, it's pretty much like the decision makers decisions make from above and you have to like everybody just have to kind of um adhere to those that decision-making process. What we've seen, and you know, there's books out there from the Journal of Sun and the Crystal and others like, that and ah me and myself i have talked with some folks who have been in the military and one is L. A. B. Marquet, who um who they they try, there's a lot of different efforts to try to integrate a more like um decentralized decision-making in the military organization to make it more effective too.
00:07:59
Speaker
So instead of that command and control approach for like the top down, just ah stick with the decision. And the last questions, it's inviting people to go ahead and and and the folks that are on the ground to be able to make those decisions themselves to be not independent, but I guess ah being able to make the decision themselves. And one concept that I'm remembering from um from L. Davey Marquette that he mentioned is like the as long as you, the instead of asking for permission to do something, you tell your intent to do something. I intend to sink the ship or I intend to do XYZ. So there's a lot of efforts right now, or not not right now, recently, but there's has been a lot of different efforts within the military to
00:08:45
Speaker
and which shows that there's ah ah guess flexibility in that command and control approach as well to be able to go ahead and and and decentralize decision making, allow the people in on the ground or elsewhere to make
Agile Transformation in the Military
00:09:01
Speaker
decisions. And even just recently when I was working with the military organization, um we were going through a agile transformation efforts, which was like, how do I was working closely with the general. He wanted to be able to implement a way of working, um of decentralized, like removing those silos because everybody, you know, within the big organization, everybody had their own like direct, like the branch and they all separated from each other.
00:09:28
Speaker
So um we did a lot of series of of learning sessions to show how to, you know, work in an agile way, meaning like, hey, you could reach out to the person next to you and ask questions, collaborate. And that we were not teaching specifically from or, you know, we were teaching that for the more the key aspect of what we were trying to ah two to to realize to make people realize was the ability to work together collaborate and kind of like break break those mental barriers um for folks so so there was a lot of openness and even that recent experience that I've had was a was very was a fun and yet challenging because some people were like used to like you know in order to like I have to talk to my manager in order to talk to you it's like no no no let's collaborate and make those
00:10:20
Speaker
things happen together. So so there's there's a command and control approach, of course, and depends on the mission as well. But also in terms of working, making a ah places that are um changing approaches is also welcome in the military organizations as well.
00:10:38
Speaker
That's really fascinating. You mentioned General McChrystal is the book Team of Teams. yeah I read that and I sometimes refer to it as the best book about agile that doesn't mention the word agile. like yeah I learned so much about how to lead software projects from thinking about that book and like there were some things in there about complicated versus complex systems. And I think you know like a complicated process is we've got X inputs, we run it through Y process and we get Z results. And there are situations where that can be efficient, but more and more we're getting to a place where, like you were saying, everything's really interconnected and like we need like it's more efficient to have a more decentralized. And I thought that book went through things really well. um ah I'm curious,
00:11:31
Speaker
What is your definition of kind of high performing? There's a lot of different ways that we can assess that. Do you have any like acceptance criteria or ways that you measure whether or not your teams are high performing? That's a great question. And and it e it makes me think that there should be, um that I should formulate more in terms of what that refers to or help the organization identify, hey, when we we're thinking We want to be high performing. What does that mean to you in the, in the organization? But for me as a whole, based on the experience of some of the teams that I've worked with is that it's a team that feels, well, it's the sack. They feel safe to work with each other. They feel able to bounce ideas back and forth.
00:12:16
Speaker
And therefore, the ability to work together effectively and being able to jump in and kind of be collaborated without even like, you know, making an extraneous effort to like, Oh, I have to collaborate with you. It's just like, it comes naturally and the coupons of ideas.
00:12:32
Speaker
that therefore they are able to come up with like experiments together and therefore not only provide results, by results meaning they will have to be whatever that ah state requirement, and like the request was to develop that product or create a new thing.
00:12:48
Speaker
that they're not only able to meet that, but also exceed those expectations for a customer. So that's how I see like a high-performing team, not just that they are able to like meet the task in a fast way and they did the task, but also that they were able to um collaborate together effectively. they they are They enjoy working with each other and therefore have the good results that ah regularly will meet the expectations from and and from an end user.
Launching 'Hardcore Soft Skills' During COVID
00:13:18
Speaker
A few years ago, you launched a podcast called Hardcore Soft Skills. Can you tell us a little bit ah more about that project and why you decided to launch it? Yes. yeah so that's ah I launched it in the middle of of COVID. and i guess I wonder if that was a ah time where people were like, I must launch the thing now or or it will never happen. like you know You have those realizations.
00:13:41
Speaker
So, and of course finding, well, a lot of more time at at home ah to do things. But as I was a journalist at my my back when I was in school, like 20 years ago, I wanted to was a journalist and I wanted to be a journalist. And I did journalism for a few years and and also as well in the military. I've always enjoyed asking questions and talking to people about different things, like making ideas available to people, like, okay, you know something,
00:14:07
Speaker
people must know about this thing. So just that concept of expanding knowledge I've always enjoyed. And for this particular reason before this podcast was the fact that because I was working with a lot of um of of engineers,
00:14:24
Speaker
and and developers, it just seemed that aside from the technical knowledge part, I started wanting to learn more about what makes them a successful team. Like you could have that bias of like, hey, um you know,
00:14:40
Speaker
developers. Oh, there's some difficult personalities here. How do we work together? There comes say the great manager that's going to save the day and make them work together. So I think like it's, so I wanted to understand in terms of how the the people themselves could just, we we should be able to to work together and also to master those skills. Like, for example, seeing great, super talented developers. But when it came time to showcase their their results, they just had difficulty like telling the story. So myself also being wanted to improve on on some skills. I thought about, like hey, it will be great. I want to delve into those um soft skills. And I try to look at the concept of soft. I don't necessarily agree with the term soft and because it sounds like, oh, good to have. and
00:15:32
Speaker
easy to acquire, et cetera. But those are hard skills. So I thought like I wanted to be able to delve into a specific skills. So I look for like a list of like soft skills. I have 100 right now. And I'm like, I want to talk to an expert on each specific skill, either being like productivity. So I reach out to David Allen of the Getting Things done book. I'm like, I want to talk to him. And and at the time, of people were easily accessible. so um But even now, it's like when I talk to people who are like high profile or anything,
00:16:03
Speaker
They they're very generous with their time. So the intent was to be able to 30 minute conversations with folks that have written literally have written the book about this skill and being able to extract those conversations and give it to the to people to be able to just by practicing at least one of the things they have learned on the podcast that they could be on the way to become better in
Podcast Highlights on Agility and Training
00:16:27
Speaker
that specific scale. So, and it's been very rewarding because of of the people I've been able to speak to and and all the lessons I have learned um having and and that the people have shared with me that they have learned. It's very fun.
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's certainly been our experience as well. And there's a lot of overlap between the the themes on our podcasts, respectively. Is there one specific episode that comes to mind you think that ah people who enjoy the empty and tech podcast here would want to start with to get into your your hardcore soft skills show? Yeah, and it's difficult to think. I'm like, there's so it's so many, but I did have, um talking of ah of agility, i've I've always kind of go back to that topic because I've i wanted to reach out to the folks who like either wrote the Agile Manifesto. So um I've talked to, I have a series of epi episodes on agility. So if people go to the website, you will see agility episodes and interviews with Jeff Sutherland.
00:17:29
Speaker
created Scrum, or Ariba Menekum, who was one of the scintatories of the Agile Manifesto, so so they could talk about what took about the part of create, getting together with different ideas. And as John Kern, another of the signatories said, like leave your ego at the door to be able to so create, um you know, to create a manifesto that it's all about the manifesto. It's all about soft skills. And so that, their series there, I've also have a great episode on negotiation, which was from one of my professors of mine in Harvard, which um Diana Butu,
00:18:06
Speaker
and she has been and an international negotiator, and um and we took I took a class with her that was all about like the the techniques for becoming a negotiator, and she created that class saying that you know they teach you in business school all these things, but they assume that people know how to be negotiators. um There's a formula for that, so here's the formula. And in that episode, we talk about that formula, and it's as you practice it, you realize like, hu this is this is something that I can implement to become a better negotiator. So so that's one, um there's so many, there's ah one as well talking with a Navy SEAL. And he talks a lot about the um its attributes, which is basically a lot of that aspects like empathy and others, like how those ah
00:18:55
Speaker
attributes is what he referred to is what makes the difference between when you go to the Navy SEAL training. um It's called ah a program, a specific program that they have, but that the reason people will pass that test and it's like only like 20% or something that go in like only 20% like graduate. um It's not because of like the toughest or um it's the people that have to those traits like you know in like resiliency or great or things like that so it's all about know the technical or the physical it's about like knowing how to use those kind of you know quote unquote soft skills too.
00:19:35
Speaker
So those are some examples there. So there's so many. And I think even if it's not specifically tech related, there always will take something away um to be able to implement um it' a technique. ah One more in regards of the listening episode, that was pretty fun because I talked to a listening as expert.
00:19:54
Speaker
And he described like the different types of listening. And as a scale, with a like we don't necessarily say, oh, I want to be a better listener. We say, I want to be a better speaker, or better um you give great presentations. But listening is so important. So he gives a lot of techniques on that. So just show some of the view. And I have like 100 plus episodes. So I've always think of of a different one that could apply to the situation. So yeah, it's ah's some of those that could be of interest.
00:20:21
Speaker
That's awesome. i can't like I love learning. I think that's the thing that I've learned the most about this topic is that we typically think of like software development like, oh, let me learn about a specific tech stack or something and it can go really deep.
00:20:38
Speaker
but even just one of you know the hundred different you know quote soft skills that you've listed, I think one of the things that's really fascinating is you can dive so, so, so deep into any one of those, which is why I say sometimes empathy is a technical skill to kind of reframe that a little bit. um I'm curious though, like so based on your experience, what do you think is one thing that people who create software could do to improve their communication and
Listening and Empathy in Software Development
00:21:10
Speaker
collaboration. We make this like actionable, the people who are listening. What's one thing you think that would be really salient for them to walk away with and start implementing?
00:21:19
Speaker
yeah yeah um and i And I think they oh a lot of the software developers that I've worked with are really good at this already. um Or at least they're like the good ones that a on listening because they trying to build on that, how to empathize with the customers, like understanding their pain points. So when they listen to the customer demands or they they are able to understand what where did they come from,
00:21:52
Speaker
and in terms of what is the pinpoint that they're trying to achieve. So I think if it's coming in with that intent to be a good listener, but also I would say in terms of of a kind of the beginner's mindset in the sense of how to approach a problem like coming in, even if you probably think you may have the solution in your head already, how to just try in and come in and approach with a beginner's mindset, listen, and then you might discover other things here and there that could help make the tweak ah to that a great solution.
00:22:28
Speaker
So i think that that's at least a skill to develop because it is a skill in terms of we want to we want to talk we want to express ourselves and tell them this is the way it should be or you know or or frustrated with with customers because they don't know how to use a tool or something like that but we need to be able to listen, to then empathize, and then being able to create like a good solution. But as I said, a lot of the ah people and in and software development could teach a lot of things ah to project managers about that in terms of the of being able to um to listen and empathize with the user.
00:23:07
Speaker
I'd actually like to dig a a little deeper on that one. Earlier you mentioned, ah you know, specifically, and I imagine you consider it its own challenge, ah since you mentioned it, is being and in charge of managing a software project while you're not yourself having a coding background. I wonder, I've usually been kind of on the the opposite seat, right?
00:23:34
Speaker
If I am working with a project manager that I know doesn't have that background, ah how can I act more helpfully there? How do I communicate when we don't have that you know kind of common ground? Yeah, that's a great question
Supporting Software Teams as Non-Coding Managers
00:23:50
Speaker
because it's that it's seeing yourself as ah either a project manager or as a scrum master. like You are the servant leader. You're there to help the team.
00:24:00
Speaker
So as long as as a manager, you ask them, like, but what do you need? This is what you show that um that you are there to help remove, you know, like scrummers, like blockers, like remove impediments. How can it help you to make the thing happen?
00:24:18
Speaker
I think if you come from with that approach, um they would respect you in the sense of of that it doesn't matter that Yari has no idea how I developed this code, but at least I know that she will help me or that the manager will help me to to make the thing happen, will give me the space I need, will make sure that I have the tools, but also the um the ability to, hey, if we need to talk directly directly with a customer instead of me trying to like serve as the middle person because I've seen that too with like with the good intent of managers thinking like no no no I'm going to protect the team you guys do your thing and I'll talk to the customer it's like well no necessarily a lot of the times we need to like remove ourselves and being able to enable that communication and that's the when the best stuff happens um because when we think I need to protect the team and then you realize like no no no I really want to talk to that customer
00:25:15
Speaker
So don't try to be like, I'm here to save the day, I'll protect you and and and ah block everything. Not necessarily you're removing impediments, but at the same time, you're making sure that they have direct communication to whatever they need. um If they need to be part of a meeting, is of that you know I know you want to protect ah people you came from the meetings, but at the same time, is this important and will they get a benefit? You could consult with the team and ask, hey, do I Could this be beneficial for you? Let's check it out. If not, then you can leave. So being a impediment remover, but also not trying to block the team too much that you remove, you know, like all external communication to the team that that they need to develop a better product.
00:25:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's something I've been thinking of lately is the gatekeeping pattern, which has been part of things for a while. And I think the way I've reframed it, because you're right, and I've seen this so much where people, like when it's a gatekeeping, it's like you become a bottleneck. like You're a single point of failure. like If you're not there, then information doesn't flow.
00:26:21
Speaker
And so I've been starting to think of that more as an advocacy role, where it's about advocating for the team and what they need. It's about advocating for you know the business use cases and like what people are, and then finding ways to you know get people to collaborate when they're when they're together too. That could definitely be a challenge of balancing all of those different needs. But that small reframing, I think, can help sometimes.
Integrating Empathy in Product Development
00:26:47
Speaker
Yeah. And now that you mentioned like acting as a bottleneck, maybe we should ask ourselves, like, are we being at a bottleneck or am I ever moving an impediment? Like you just approach the situation, no way to help make that decision. So so yeah, because yeah, it's it's it's it's not great to see when, oh, I'm protecting the team, but it's it's a disservice to the team. So we need to consider those things.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show. And I feel like that show forever here I do have, we have one final question that we ask everyone on the show and I'm really curious to hear what you think. What do you think is the most important thing that should be happening at the intersection of empathy and technology right now? Oh, intersection of empathy and technology. So.
00:27:36
Speaker
I think it's an interesting question because I think in terms of how to make it ingrained as part of like any development process. um And it will be interesting to figure out how like, for example, how do we have that always that empathy mindset like either as um the from the development of the product lifecycle, from starting with the part of you know understanding the customer, you know how to integrate empathy there to understand their pain points is is one ah aspect to do that.
00:28:09
Speaker
Then when we go ahead and take that and start the development aspect, not it's the em empathy empathy, not on the customer side now, but also as a team, like empathizing with the team, either with our, um with my, my coworker, meaning like, how do I empathize with them in terms of the, the approach of how to, how do we communicate with each other? How do we collaborate with each other? How do I let others?
00:28:32
Speaker
Let them shine in their expertise, but also understand how we work together. Like we have different styles of working. Not everybody is going to work just like me exactly. So how do we empathize with each other as a team? And also, um, and the part of like, you know, um, when we put the product out, then how do anything's not necessarily go well.
00:28:57
Speaker
Then continue with that empathy mindset of like, okay, I feeling it's something didn't work out, either terrible feedback from the user. I need to empathize with the user to understand why they don't like it. Instead of getting mad at them like hard, you know, you stupid users, et cetera, or something like that. So I think it's just building empathy as part, it is part of the, of the life cycle of product development.
00:29:18
Speaker
um We just don't necessarily express it that way, um but it's it's important to recognize that it is and and find ways as either managers or team leads to allow the team to cultivate that because it's not just about their um the shining superstars of a team that have the the greatest ah coding skills, it's about the how to make the team blend and work together and the foundation of that is empathy. Well, it's been a great
Connecting with Yadi and Podcast Mission
00:29:44
Speaker
conversation. How can people get in touch with you and learn more about your work?
00:29:48
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So they can go to the website, hardcoresoftskillspodcast.com, and there you'll see all the episodes, some courses, and get in touch with me, and also reach me via LinkedIn. i'm very I love connecting with people from all over the world via LinkedIn, and they can find me through YaviCaro. So yeah, and I look forward to learning from people. Thank you so much.
00:30:12
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah. And we'll have some links to that down in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Yadi. And thanks to all of you for listening. Empathy in Tech is on a mission to accelerate the responsible adoption of empathy in the tech industry by doing four things. Closing the empathy skills gap by treating empathy as a technical skill, teaching technical empathy through accessible, affordable, and actionable training.
00:30:36
Speaker
building community and breaking down harmful stereotypes and tropes, and promoting technical empathy empathy for ethics, equity, and social justice. So if you found this conversation interesting, head over to empathyintech.com. You can join our community, keep the conversation going, and connect with other people. Hear just as much about empathy and technology as you do. Thanks again for listening, and we will see you in the next episode.