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E232: Jaidyn Leskie (Part 2)
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In 1998, the entire country of Australia seemed gripped by the unfolding court case concerning a child who had gone missing the year prior. In 1997, nearly 14-month-old Jaidyn Leskie had gone missing while in the supervision of his mother’s boyfriend. In a case with criss-crossing plot lines, twists and turns, and a cast of complex characters, many wondered whether justice for Jaidyn were even a remote possibility.
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The Jaidyn Leskie Murder by Michael Gleeson: https://www.amazon.com/Jaidyn-Leskie-Murder-Michael-Gleeson-ebook/dp/B003TQLOX4
Inquest Transcript:
https://www.bioforensics.com/app/download/5286326/Leskie_decision.pdf
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Transcript
The Disappearance and Discovery of Jaden Leske
00:00:00
Speaker
Last week, we talked about the disappearance of 14-month-old Jaden Liski, the fears of his mother, Belinda Murphy, and the subsequent arrest of Belinda's boyfriend, Greg Domashevich. But was the evidence enough to prove guilt? Was it enough to prove anything? Before those questions could be answered, one question was,
00:00:29
Speaker
what had happened to Jaden Leske.
Introduction to Coffee and Cases Podcast
00:01:06
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:01:26
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:01:43
Speaker
Now, before we jump into the rest of the case, this week, obviously, if you have not listened to last week's episode. Yeah, you gotta go back. You got to go back. There is a lot. This is not one to just jump right into in part two. No. And figure it out. There is a lot of information in part one and a lot of complexities. It's a nice way to say it. Yeah.
00:02:11
Speaker
So here we are in part two. Again, like part one, I would like to give a stern, strong warning that the content of this case last week and this week is not for the faint of heart. So listener discretion is strongly advised.
The Crime Scene and Investigation Begins
00:02:33
Speaker
Maggie, on January 1, 1998, a family was visiting Blue Rock Dam when 14-year-old Sam Payne decided to walk the dam wall. That was when he spotted it. Something in the water. Looking closer, he saw it was the body of a very young child with a gash in its side.
00:03:03
Speaker
and a broken arm. Sam ran to tell his family who saw for themselves that this wasn't some cruel joke that the teenager Sam was making up. The family called the police immediately and stayed near the body until police arrived. As you've likely guessed,
00:03:26
Speaker
It was indeed the body of little Jaden Leske. Makes me want to go help my baby. I know. The temperature of the waters below had preserved the body enough that despite decomposition, because we're talking from June until January, identification was still visibly possible.
00:03:51
Speaker
After divers explored the area in search of additional clues, they discovered that Jaden's body had been placed inside a sleeping bag they found submerged. Inside the sleeping bag was also a plastic bag containing items like his bottle that had been zipped up and weighed down with a crowbar before having been thrown into the dam.
00:04:20
Speaker
Though the zipper had held on the sleeping bag, the seams of the sleeping bag had finally burst open to send the truth of Jaden Lesky's fate to the surface. So sad. So sad. One of the many watching the news unfold upon Jaden's discovery made a different discovery. Well, potentially anyway.
00:04:48
Speaker
This person recognized that an item could be something of theirs. Paul, a friend of Greg's. I swear to God. What are you thinking?
00:05:05
Speaker
I'm sure something that is probably like the crowbar or the sleeping bag is not Greg's and it was probably this friends and he's like, Oh, this is mine. But then now I'm wondering why we're talking about this because if it's still unsolved. So we know Craig didn't go to jail. So right. Yeah. So Paul, a friend of Greg's had misplaced his crowbar.
00:05:33
Speaker
several months earlier after gardening at Greg's house in early June. So he's wondering, is this his missing crowbar that was tied to the sleeping bag? He obviously wasn't sure, but he wanted to report the possibility.
00:05:53
Speaker
Well, at least he reported it, so good job, Paul.
Doubt Over Greg Domashevich's Guilt
00:05:56
Speaker
Yes, even with the trial about to start and with the discovery of Jayden's body, Belinda continued to waffle in her feelings towards Greg's guilt just as before. And that's mostly because his friends
00:06:13
Speaker
continued to believe that Greg was not capable of such a horrendous crime, right? They're saying he's capable of a lot of things. We've seen it, but murder? Plus, the whole time, Maggie, Greg kept repeating that he didn't do it.
00:06:34
Speaker
And maybe he didn't do it intentionally, but maybe we'll talk about that. Yeah, we will. We will. Belinda wanted to attempt a trick to see if Greg maintained his innocence, which I think is pretty smart. She offered to lie for him at the trial if he wanted it. So she's wanting to see his reaction. She goes in and she says, listen, if you want me to lie for you at the trial, I'll lie for you.
00:07:04
Speaker
But Greg told Belinda that she needed to tell the truth if they were ever going to know who really hurt Jaden. Well, that response, of course, for the controlling Greg made Belinda wonder if he really were innocent because that seemed the response of an innocent man.
00:07:25
Speaker
Or it could seem the response of a manipulative man the same as in last week's episode when he was like, Oh, you can go ahead and tell police like that. I lost it. And then right. I did. Well, yeah.
00:07:41
Speaker
But, and you're right. And there was also the nagging recollection that Greg had items that police said were drenched. And so with the discovery of Jayden in the water, that detail seemed a dangerous red flag.
00:08:00
Speaker
Plus, Belinda knew that when Greg went fishing, like that time with Jayden, when Jayden got hurt, it was at Blue Rock Dam. And you mentioned this at the end of last week, Maggie, if you remember way back in the last episode, it was Blue Rock Dam where Greg had threatened to throw the body of his ex-Yavon's friend after he threatened to kill her.
00:08:27
Speaker
But then, if Greg had been responsible for Jaden's death and it happened at his home, why had no one heard a child scream? Why had no one heard a child cry? Where was the blood? Why was there not more evidence? Well, I mean, it could have happened somewhere else though. But where?
00:08:50
Speaker
I don't know. By the time the trial began, Greg had been in jail for 14 months, the entirety of Jayden Lesky's life. Greg was pleading not guilty.
00:09:03
Speaker
and his defense were not short on pointing fingers at other potential perpetrators to create reasonable doubt. There was the group with Greg's ex and the pig's head who were linked to a biker gang. There was even someone else, a man not yet introduced in our story, a man named Tubby Hopkinson linked with Yvonne's brother with a long history of violence
00:09:32
Speaker
that made Greg look like a choir boy. And Greg's defense, again, was ready to point the finger. One thing the defense wasn't sure about was whether to put Greg on the stand. Maybe it would be good to show that his manner was to be vague and squirrely all the time. Right?
00:09:58
Speaker
But it was a gamble to put him on the sand. Yeah, risky. Yeah. They were thinking, well, maybe if we can prove that evasiveness is a character trait for him in his taped interview, the jurors would see maybe wouldn't be so off-putting. But Greg's defense team, they were prepared. They had other suspects, they had
00:10:25
Speaker
a lack of evidence that they could prove. They had a string of unanswered questions and they began with one key question. When Jaden's body was found, he had been wearing plastic pants that Belinda had not sent with Jaden. So why was he wearing them? These were pants that Greg- Plastic pants. Yeah. That's what it said in the research. Interesting. I don't know if it's more like,
00:10:55
Speaker
like windbreakers, do you remember those, like a tracksuit? I don't know. But these were pants that Greg didn't have in his possession. And if not the two of them, who could be linked to the pants, then who had been caring for Jayden before his death who had put those on him?
00:11:14
Speaker
On the stand, Belinda, who was, remember, drunk the night when details were of utmost importance, sadly couldn't remember how many calls she had made to Greg, whether she thought she heard Jaden in the background before or after Greg told her that he had taken Jaden to the hospital for burns. And she also noted on the stand, as damning as it sounded, that she herself struggled mentally
00:11:44
Speaker
with Jayden's constant crying. Belinda's sister Katie testified to say that Belinda had wanted badly to go home, but everyone had convinced her that Jayden was fine. And to her recollection, Katie only remembered three calls to Greg that night. When Belinda heard about the burn, when Katie called as a follow up, and when Katie called to tell Greg to pick Belinda up.
00:12:12
Speaker
she, Katie, couldn't remember the 15 to 20 missed calls. And so her testimony at least made people wonder, had Greg dodged all those phone calls like we previously thought and was unaccounted for for a stretch of time that evening or was Belinda mistaken?
00:12:32
Speaker
The prosecution called to the stand the officer who had pulled Greg over in the wee morning hours before Jayden's disappearance was reported. The cop who had pulled Greg over at 3.35 AM, testified that Greg's demeanor changed between the stop and when he came in with Belinda to report Jayden missing, but why?
00:12:58
Speaker
According to Greg, it could have been that, well, when he gets pulled over, he still thinks that Jaden is alive. And so he's going back to check to try to find him. And then when he can't find him later, when he reports a missing, he's frantic. Or on the other hand, is it because Greg hadn't yet disposed of Jaden's body yet, and therefore didn't bring it up?
00:13:26
Speaker
One of the pig head group, as I will call them, with Yvonne, was her new partner, Darren. He took the stand, but said that all the fiasco at Gregg's was Yvonne's brother Kenny's doing, and that he didn't even know about the missing Jayden until he saw it on the news.
00:13:50
Speaker
He also said that Tubby Hopkins, Kenny's roommate, who we will talk about in a second, who the defense would try to implicate later, was not involved at all. You see, the prosecution called the whole pighead group, for better or for worse, as you will soon see. So they called every single one of them to the stand because the defense planned to show that any one of them could have taken Jay
00:14:19
Speaker
So the prosecution is like, you know what, let's get this, just get the jump on it. We'll call all of them to the stand and try to prove that they didn't do it. So we take away the reasonable doubt.
00:14:31
Speaker
especially since, again, Greg said that he had left Jaden at home when he went to pick up Belinda.
Alternative Suspects and Defense Strategy
00:14:40
Speaker
And we know that the pig head group was at Greg's home before Jaden was reported missing. Right, because they admitted that. Right. So they're arguing, the defense says, it's awfully coincidental
00:14:55
Speaker
that they just happened to come by Greg's home, vandalize it, and leave a severed pig's head on the very night that a toddler disappeared, but they have no idea how the toddler disappeared? But then again, I mean, you could say it's exactly that. It is just a coincidence. Right. And that is what the prosecution wanted to prove.
00:15:19
Speaker
So Yvonne's brother Kenny took the stand also and he admitted the pig head was his idea as a way to make a statement to Greg to not keep harassing his sister. Prosecution emphasized that Kenny was admitting to these crimes and to being at Greg's house. If he were trying to hide something, why would he have even admitted that?
00:15:44
Speaker
But in cross-examination, the defense said Kenny was seen alongside another man and a small child in the days after Jayden went missing. They were seen near where Kenny's dad lived. Well, Kenny said, yeah, that was likely my two-year-old sister. But of course, he couldn't prove that.
00:16:12
Speaker
Author Michael Gleason, who was a journalist for the Herald Sun, who wrote the book that I read, could account for Kenny's movements, even if Kenny himself couldn't, because he had actually interviewed Kenny on both of the two days in question for Kenny's movements when he was seen with a child. Then came the new focus for the defense, Tubby Hopkinson.
00:16:38
Speaker
When Kenny was on the stand, the defense questioned why someone like Tubby, remember I said he makes Greg look like a choir boy, who wanted to be involved in all ruckus and revenge imaginable, like wouldn't pass it up if his life depended on it, would have been the only one to turn down the opportunity in the house to go get revenge on Greg.
00:17:07
Speaker
Okay so Tubby wasn't at the house when they left the pigs head and smashed all the windows and they're like why would he not be there? Right because at Kenny's
00:17:17
Speaker
house, which Tubby's a roommate. There was Kenny. Tubby was there. Yvonne was there. Yvonne's boyfriend. Deering was there. And another man was there. And they said, listen, we're going. We're getting revenge on Greg. I've got this severed pig's head. We're going to throw rocks. We're going to smash his car windows. And all of them got into the car, except the one who would never turn down the opportunity to do something like that.
00:17:46
Speaker
The defense is like, doesn't really add up to us. Why would he be the only one who knew about the plan? Who was like, you know what, I'm just going to stay in sleep. I guess my question is because I'm sure the defense is going to say while they were doing all of that, Tubby goes in and kidnaps Jayden. That's precisely what they argued.
00:18:11
Speaker
Which I guess my question here is, I don't know Tubby's background, things that he did or whatever, but was kidnapping a likely thing he would have done? Also, is it just me and you, I'm sure, and the people listening to this episode that think, you know, getting revenge
00:18:36
Speaker
And you kidnap a baby. Yeah. Maybe a little step too far in revenge. Right. Yeah. That doesn't smack of revenge to me as much as a severed pig's head. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And open windows. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But to your first question, I'll try to answer it.
00:18:59
Speaker
With the accusations already launched at him, when Tubby took the stand at trial, he was angry. He cursed at the lawyers. His voice rose to a loud pitch. Meanwhile, quiet, small stature Greg sat quietly, which is exactly what the defense wanted. The defense actually presented Tubby as a potential cop killer.
00:19:30
Speaker
as a man who had beheaded a friend's dog and as someone who had kidnapped his own family. If there were a man capable of kidnapping and killing a child, Tubby was presented by the defense as the type of person who could. But there were problems with this theory, Maggie.
00:19:55
Speaker
If Tubby came in Greg's home through the back, like you so astutely guessed, how? Because not only was the back door locked and no windows broken there in the back of the house, but all three of Greg's dogs were loose in the backyard. And he had what kind of dogs?
00:20:19
Speaker
They were bull terriers. Bull terriers? Yeah. They're not very big though, are they? I don't know. But still, you would have at least commotion. But the dogs would be barking because rocks are being thrown through the windows in the front at the same time. They weigh between 45 and 80 pounds. Oh, so they can be pretty big. Completing the pig head group.
00:20:49
Speaker
Greg's ex Yvonne also took the stand to explain the harassment she faced not only from Greg, but also from Belinda. The prosecution had done their job with Yvonne's testimony of making them, Greg and Belinda, also be seen as potential bad characters as well.
00:21:12
Speaker
in order to poke holes in the theory presented by the defense, prosecution outlined that when the police examined Greg's place after the vandalism, they determined that the holes in the windows were too small, like I mentioned before, for anybody to climb through them. And there was no evidence inside the home of intruders.
00:21:37
Speaker
So this theory that it happened after Greg left with the vandalism, the police are saying, I don't see how. They did also find in the home on the heater, a small piece of skin tissue that was Jaden's though.
00:21:58
Speaker
Oh, so to back up the burn. Yeah. Had Jaden burned himself earlier in the night, every small piece of evidence like this one made those hearings the trial question Greg's guilt, just like Belinda did, right? Remember, she said, well, what he says, it adds up. And so if I'm going to believe that, at what point do I stop believing? Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, a complete forensic workup of Greg's car
00:22:26
Speaker
by this point was complicated because it had been driven by an officer after Greg came in to report the disappearance. But they did say that there was not any human blood found in Greg's car. But there were other issues if Greg were guilty. For example,
00:22:51
Speaker
a luminal test was conducted in Greg's garage and even in the backyard. And the only blood found belonged to the dogs. So Jaden's arm is broken. Correct. When we say broken, is it like compound fracture? It would have bled. Both bones were broken in his lower arm.
00:23:15
Speaker
Yes. I'm almost wondering if that was like, remember the incident when he was screaming? I wonder if it could have been related to that. Like I'm thinking, could there be two different, if we're saying it is Greg, which I mean, even now, some of the stuff that they're presenting, you're like, maybe it isn't. And in the first episode, I feel like almost everybody that was listening was probably like, maybe it is.
00:23:44
Speaker
But I'm almost wondering if there could have been two different incidents like he breaks the arm, he has one of those things where he like loses it, drives Jaden off, something else happens and that's how Jaden ends up in the dam. I don't know though. I know.
00:24:00
Speaker
Well, and going back to Jaden's arm, his arm had been broken, but there has also been a piece of gauze put on it and secured with medical fibrous tape that couldn't be conclusively linked to Greg. If his arm is somehow patched, who did it?
00:24:23
Speaker
And obviously you're not going to do that if there's a plan to kill. And finally, DNA samples were taken from Jaden's pants and bib that belonged to a female other than Belinda that were not yet identified. So had someone else taken Jaden? Had he lived several days after having been kidnapped?
00:24:49
Speaker
Next, the medical examiner took the stand. The defense focused on her mention of those plastic pants, something not in Greg's possession that had to have come from somewhere else. Well, on the stand, the examiner wavered on that detail, now saying maybe she was mistaken since nobody else mentioned seeing the plastic pants.
00:25:16
Speaker
She then described Jaden's injuries. She noted the broken left arm. There was also a Y-shaped fracture on the right occipital bone found right at the base of the skull where it meets the neck. There was also a drug found in Jaden's liver. One used to treat Parkinson's disease
00:25:41
Speaker
and also used in the past, not anymore, to counteract side effects of drugs used to treat schizophrenia, which was something that was suffered by several in the pig head group, but not by Greg. And the drug, this drug, would it have like, what would it have done to him? Just, I guess, made him, like, loopy?
00:26:09
Speaker
perhaps because we don't know, because of decomposition, exactly how much of the drug Jaden had ingested. One would think that, you know, science from the medical examiner, we would be able to answer more questions than would be left open-ended. But unfortunately, that was not so in Jaden Lesky's case.
00:26:36
Speaker
because the body had been preserved by the cold temperatures of the water, it could not be conclusively determined whether Jaden's body had been in the water for two months or six months before it was discovered. So they're saying, listen, we've got six months that passed, but had his body been in the water for six months? We don't know. It could have been in there for two months.
00:27:07
Speaker
Wow. Jaden's hair also appeared visibly to have been grown out from its shaven state that Greg had done remember. And while the medical examiner said hair can look longer after death because your skin shrinks back, she was forced to admit that it wasn't possible to prove conclusively
00:27:34
Speaker
that it hadn't grown out from living longer after he went missing. I don't know why, but for some reason, the thoughts of him being kept alive makes this even more sad. But then I keep going to for what purpose? I mean, it's not like there was
00:28:01
Speaker
A ransom. Yeah, or anything like that. So I don't understand if he were kept alive. Why? Unless they just had intended it as a type of revenge. Oh, we'll take them and scare them for a couple of days. And then they were like, oh, we could really get trouble for this. And then they. Maybe. Well, then there's the fact that the defense pointed out, obviously they're honing in on the kidnapping theory, the potential.
00:28:30
Speaker
of life after the day Jayden went missing, that while Greg and Belinda's homes had been searched, Greg's ex Yvonne's house had not. Interesting. And she was rumored to be in some sort of a relationship with a local cop. Oh, even more interesting. So Greg's defense team argued this was all a cover up. They said that's another possibility.
00:29:00
Speaker
But I will say that the officer in question had recused himself from the investigation because he felt he was too close to the people involved. But it also came to light during trial that the police had planted several listening devices to gain information related to Greg.
Controversial Evidence and Trial Arguments
00:29:21
Speaker
They had police listening devices in his car, in his home, and in congregating places within the jail. They even put one in the office, and I didn't read whether this is verified or the defense tried to argue this, but they said in the office of his psychiatrist's consultation room. Is that legal? I do not think so.
00:29:45
Speaker
But police got the most information from a jailhouse informant. This man used by the police to know what Greg's defense was planning, what they were going to argue because Greg had told other people in his cell block so that the prosecution could prep for it. This informant said that Greg admitted to killing Jayden and had given details about the crime.
00:30:15
Speaker
So here's what he said he overheard Greg admit. He said that Greg said he had been working on a car when a jack fell and the car had rolled on Jaden's arm, like falling off the jack onto Jaden's arm. He said that he had bandaged it and then given Jaden a drug for pain, which had knocked him out.
00:30:45
Speaker
This jailhouse informant said Greg told others that he had been playing Nintendo when Jaden woke back up screaming from pain again. That's when Greg picked him up to shake him and either accidentally dropped or threw him and his head hit the fireplace. The informant said he also overheard Greg say something like,
00:31:15
Speaker
quote, I should never have tied the kid to the crowbar, end quote. But they also said Greg mentioned something vague about a female helping him. In total, by the end, there was not just one jailhouse informant, but three separate informants who told police that Greg had confessed or indicated guilt.
00:31:42
Speaker
though none of these quote-unquote confessions were captured on the listening devices and these statements were never presented to the jury, mostly because there were inconsistencies
00:32:00
Speaker
because much of what they brought up had been published in newspapers. And the prosecution worried that with all of those factors, bringing them into trial would just muddy their case. They thought they had enough to convict Greg without them. So the three confessions that we have
00:32:23
Speaker
have information that was public or, and or, I guess, details weren't exactly the same. Correct. So prosecution says we're not going to use them. We're not going to use them. We've got enough. Officers were convinced that Greg was responsible. After all,
00:32:41
Speaker
why hadn't he mentioned Jayden was missing when he got pulled over around 3.30 a.m. Right? They're saying if he were truly worried and he had nothing to do with it and he knows that someone has vandalized his home and he doesn't immediately see Jayden, why wouldn't he have said something that
00:33:01
Speaker
One officer openly voiced his belief that Greg hadn't yet placed Jaden's body in the dam, and that's why he believed Greg didn't mention it.
00:33:13
Speaker
The prosecution also pointed out that all the items put into the sleeping bag with Jaden were items previously described by Belinda as associated with Jaden, items that would remove all traces in a way that an outsider wouldn't have known, only Greg. So an outsider wouldn't have been like, oh, this is Jaden's, I better put it in a bag. This is Jaden's, I better put it in a bag. Only Greg would have known what items were Jaden's.
00:33:44
Speaker
So that's what prosecution is saying. So it proves that it was Greg. When it was their turn, the defense only called a few witnesses.
00:33:55
Speaker
But one argued that in the background of one of the police photos was an item that could arguably be the crowbar still in the yard when police were investigating, which would have meant it would be impossible for Greg to have gotten it for use and disposal before the investigation began and it's in this picture.
00:34:20
Speaker
Did we ever follow up with the friend to see if it was his crowbar? Well, it was one of those things. That's why I kept saying potentially, I mean a crowbar, there's nothing really distinctive about it. Yeah. To prove that it's his or not. Another
00:34:37
Speaker
expert witness said that the knots that were tied in the rope on the sleeping bag were too intricate for someone like Greg to have tied, who per another friend's testimony was not good at tying knots.
00:34:52
Speaker
Another woman testified that she saw the officer rumored to be in a relationship with Yvonne coming from Greg's house with two other officers and carrying what she initially thought was a golf club. But in hindsight, she said it could have been a crowbar.
00:35:11
Speaker
The defense, in other words, focused on continuing to create reasonable doubt. I mean, they're doing a good job though. Yeah. After the jury deliberated for more than three days, they actually came back to ask for a more detailed definition of reasonable doubt.
00:35:31
Speaker
I mean, I feel like it's kind of self-explanatory in the words there, but I can't. Right. As potential charges, they were offered both a murder charge or manslaughter, meaning a belief that Jayden's death was accidental. On day four, the jury had reached a verdict.
Verdict and Unresolved Mysteries
00:35:52
Speaker
They filed in not looking at Greg, which made everyone guess at their decision, but they would have been wrong.
00:36:00
Speaker
It was the moment of truth. On the count of murder, the jury found Greg not guilty. On the count of manslaughter, again, not guilty.
00:36:17
Speaker
Greg was relieved, his mother ecstatic. Belinda, continually on the fence in terms of her convictions, now believed the jury's verdict. She stated, quote, I'm the victim of my own mistakes and will continue to live with them for the rest of my life. But I realize I cannot change them. I believe I will go through my life never knowing the truth, but will continue to be strong for my children, end quote.
00:36:45
Speaker
Thus, the case of Jayden Leskemag is considered closed at the same time it is unsolved. Even after the trial, Belinda and all the others involved fought for the investigation to continue and to find the killer who might still be out there.
00:37:06
Speaker
Greg said he knows who committed the crime. Well, he says the three people anyway with what he says is 100% certainty. Is it the pig people? Well, he never named. He never comes out and says. The people, right. But it makes us wonder, is there still an opportunity for justice? On September 26, 2003, the coroner announced new evidence
00:37:35
Speaker
that meant they wanted a new public inquest for answers. I was like, ooh, 2003's not that long ago, but then yes it is. 21 years, yeah. Author Michael Gleason actually explained that in an inquest, as opposed to a trial, the burden of proof is on probabilities, meaning you don't need beyond a reasonable doubt to prove something.
00:38:02
Speaker
But it does have to be more than a gut feeling, especially with a serious allegation like murder. So we're talking, can I prove with 60% certainty? There can be some doubt. In the upcoming inquest, they were to look again at the statements made by the jailhouse informants, were to explore the undetermined female DNA,
Public Inquest and New Evidence
00:38:25
Speaker
were to investigate whether Jayden had lived several more days after he went missing, were to do more testing on the drug in Jayden's system and had new witnesses. One was a caseworker who had witnessed abuse of Jayden. And one was a person who said they saw Greg's car at the dam on the night of the disappearance. Now again, Maggie, just like the trial,
00:38:54
Speaker
There were problems with the elements of the case against Greg. For example, the witness to Greg being at the dam had holes in his testimony like said he saw something but when
00:39:09
Speaker
investigation was done and somebody put themselves in the exact same spot, they couldn't have seen what he said he saw. And then the caseworker said that she had told supervisors of what she had witnessed in terms of abuse of Jayden by Greg and had kept documentation for proof of the abuse, but in the inquest failed to produce any documents and none of her supervisors could corroborate that she had
00:39:39
Speaker
shared that information. The informant's stories, for the most part, stayed the same, but now one of them said that after the drugging, that Greg told him that he had put a pillow over Jaden's head and had hit him with a crowbar until he felt no pulse.
00:40:03
Speaker
Well, I mean, I feel like we would have evidence of that though. Right. I feel like there would be blood and I feel like there would have been more than the one. Like fracture in the skull area. Yeah. So again, things are changing. And defense argued that, okay, you're telling me that three informants innocently contacted police to make statements within four days of one another?
00:40:32
Speaker
Defense was basically implying this is too coincidental to believe it's innocent. And maybe they came forward because they'd been coerced into their statements. That was the implication that the defense was making.
00:40:46
Speaker
Plus, even in relating what they said Greg had admitted to them, it was all over the place, Maggie. It was an admission at one point of borrowing a friend's boat in order to take Jaden's body out, to another instant saying that Jaden's death was accidental, to another instant Greg maintaining that he wasn't guilty at all. So it's everywhere.
00:41:12
Speaker
And we know from other cases that a lot of the times inmates will come forward with information, hoping to lighten their sentence or for the attention and things like that. So they're not always the most reliable. And even scientists couldn't provide more clarity to the case in the inquest. For example, Jaden's broken arm. Like I said before, both the bones in the lower arm
00:41:39
Speaker
had been broken, but one of them, one of the bones, showed potential signs of healing when the body was examined. And scientists couldn't say whether that happened as part of natural decomposition, which they said could mimic the healing, but if it's part of the decomposition, then why did one bone show it and not the other? And not the other.
00:42:04
Speaker
Then they're saying, we don't know if it's natural decomposition or if the break had happened in the days before Jaden's death and just wasn't reported. Or if Jaden had been kept alive. Exactly. If he had been kept alive for several days after the break-in before his death because they said the growth that they saw in their estimation was the healing of four to six days worth.
00:42:30
Speaker
And what's more, the break in both of the bones, according to orthopedic surgeon, Dr. David Bainbridge, was not likely to have been caused by being crushed by a falling car, right? This was more a snap versus crushed. Yeah. So they also couldn't rule out, like we mentioned before, that the drug that was given to Jayden,
00:42:57
Speaker
wasn't the cause of death because again, due to time and decomposition, it wasn't possible to fully determine how much Jaden had been given. So science, we're still not able to answer anything. They did determine that Jaden's hair, the growth of which had been a focus in the trial was a non-factor.
00:43:20
Speaker
They said, hair doesn't grow after death, but the skin around the follicle shrinks back and makes it appear to have grown. Same with fingernails and toenails. They said, this is the moderate growth that could be explained by that. And you know what? That gives me some like peace of mind because here I was thinking when I die, my toenails and fingernails are just going to grow and like be really weird and nasty and curl around each other. No, you're good.
00:43:50
Speaker
Also, if Jayden had been alive for days after he was reported missing, it wasn't, most people agreed, Greg, who had killed him. Oh, you know what? I hadn't thought about that because everybody would have been looking at Greg. Exactly. Especially after he reports him missing. So if he had been alive after he was kidnapped, most people say it wasn't Greg.
00:44:17
Speaker
In relation to Greg and his quote unquote confessions, there are also problems here. They wondered, okay, if he did borrow a boat because he had recently sold his own, then number one, why were there all of those personal items that were wet? You don't get wet if you're in the boat. And number two, if he's in a boat, like one of the jailhouse informants had said,
00:44:44
Speaker
Then why dump Jaden's body by the wall of the dam and not in the deepest water further out? Well, yes, with the boat. Why do that? But then we could explain by the wall of the dam.
00:45:02
Speaker
with his clothes being wet or his wallet and whatever. Cause he could have walked out there, but with the boat. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. So yeah, right. What would have been consistent with the wet items and with where Jayden's body was found would have been for the killer to wade waste deep in the water and then throw the sleeping bag from there. But then if that, if that is what he did, which would explain the wet items, then that means this jail house informants story of what Greg told is wrong. Right.
00:45:32
Speaker
As for the female DNA, that was likely cross-contamination in the forensic lab because what they found is that it didn't match any of the women known to have been in contact with Jaden, but it did match a 22 year old rape victim whose DNA arrived to the lab around the same time as Jaden's and it was tested by the same scientist.
00:45:58
Speaker
Well, I mean that to me, I think you lose credibility as a scientist. Yes. Yeah. And on this item, the reason why they really said, okay, it's most likely cross-contamination is because it was only this woman's DNA that was on the item and not even Jayden's that was on it.
Belinda Murphy's Reflections and Call for Justice
00:46:18
Speaker
Again, in the inquest, Greg did not take the stand. Both Greg's general practitioner and his psychologist said Greg Demashevich
00:46:29
Speaker
was not fit to testify because of his health. So basically like PTSD, anxiety, they said it's not in your best interest. In fact, they said if you put him on the stand, he might not even answer truthfully. He's just going to answer whatever you want him to say so he could quickly get off the stand. So if you want the truth, don't put him on it.
00:46:52
Speaker
Regardless, the finding of the inquest was to find that Greg was responsible, they ruled, for disposing of Jaden's body in Blue Rock Dam, even though it could not be proven that he had killed Jaden. And so this is mostly because
00:47:18
Speaker
the reason why they made this ruling. So again, you don't have to have even reasonable doubt. We can still have doubt for an inquest and then make this ruling. Okay. Cause again, it had like, okay, are we 60% sure? That just seems kind of weird to me. I agree. I agree. So this inquest where they said he was responsible for disposing of the body was based in my opinion, mostly on the fact that there is a roughly two hour time period
00:47:47
Speaker
when Greg couldn't fully account for where he was between the time when he took Belinda home and when he returns to wake her up to go to the police station. He could not satisfactorily explain all of the wet items other than saying maybe they got wet in a puddle or the rain while he was working on a car.
00:48:12
Speaker
And so those factors plus the evidence we heard in trial add up to enough probability that he had at least some involvement at some level. But then like nothing results of this in the quest though, right? It does not. Other than to say he maybe had some involvement. And that is unfortunately all the quote unquote justice
00:48:41
Speaker
little Jayden Leskey received. So Maggie, what are your thoughts? Well, like I said, I feel like I've been kind of quiet through this one and last week's just because there's so much to take in. There is. And I feel like in the first half,
00:49:03
Speaker
Well, I'll say this. I feel that Greg's lawyers did a very good job of putting that reasonable doubt in the minds of listeners of this case and obviously the jury, because they did bring up a lot of good points. Um, because even I find myself thinking, okay, well, who could this have been then?
00:49:28
Speaker
The inquest thing kind of confuses me because what's the purpose if it has no legality or consequence to the ruling, I guess. I guess other than make people feel better. Maybe. Because at least someone is... Is saying what you want them to say, potentially. Maybe. Maybe.
00:49:49
Speaker
I don't know. I think they presented some really good information about the pig head group. I myself keep going back to the wet clothes, which again, isn't enough to say that it was him. I don't know. I kind of agree with Belinda. I think we may never know. And this is why I brought up the magic in the beginning of the first episode.
00:50:14
Speaker
because it's almost like both sides are trying to use misdirection. Like look over here and then you're not seeing this other thing. Right. But which version is the truth? Right. In 2005, Belinda Murphy exchanged a series of emails
00:50:32
Speaker
with Detective Senior Sergeant of the Homicide Squad Violent Crimes Investigation Division, Roland Legg. I'm going to read you portions of one of those emails. Quote, I know it was a handful in 1997. I look back now and I'm sorry, not only to the police and the Homicide Squad, but to a lot of people that I hurt by believing in Greg and giving up on everything. Sadly, even my own daughter, because of my belief.
00:51:01
Speaker
My biggest hurt is that you were all telling me Jaden was dead and there was no proof. To this day, I still haven't received a death certificate. I don't know if one exists. I fought you all and I wouldn't listen because I didn't want to believe you. I had in my head that Jaden would come home and prove you all wrong.
00:51:22
Speaker
One thing my mother told me from the start was, the police are usually right, Belinda. It's not very often they get it wrong. And even though all these years later, it's still extremely hard, even trying to come to terms with the fact that he will never come home. I still hope with my heart that he may walk through the door someday, but I know in my head that he won't. Nobody would let me see him and hold him.
00:51:48
Speaker
And that's what upset me the most. Nobody can even tell me what date his death occurred. I never did get to say goodbye. In a way, I still haven't. I see now that the truth was in front of me all along. I just didn't want to believe that someone I trusted with my child's life went and took that life and dumped him like he was nothing.
00:52:11
Speaker
I made a mistake with Jayden. I look back now and this is something I've never told anyone but as much as I thought Greg was good to Jayden and from what I saw he was he really was I was unaware of what was going on when my back was turned but that day
00:52:28
Speaker
The day I kissed Jaden goodbye, I saw in his eyes and I felt that Jaden didn't want to go. I know that sounds silly, but my little boy did not want to go with Greg and I have lived with that all these years. And just with that thought alone, I still struggle to understand why I believed in his innocence, but I did and I cannot change that.
00:52:54
Speaker
It's funny because everyone thinks it's because I had a lot of people in my head. And thinking back now, I know I did listen to a lot of garbage. And I know now that Greg lied to me over and over and over. But at the end of the day, it was me who made the decision. And it was me who believed in every word that he, Greg said to me. And it was me who should apologize for my actions. And when I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong.
00:53:20
Speaker
In a way, I guess it's a little easier to talk about it now, but knowing that my son was murdered and dumped in a dam and I never got to see him again, I don't think will ever be easy. And I know it's something I'll never get over, but I feel like I can move on from it now. I feel Jaden was the only victim in all of this. And it just kills me to know that when whatever Greg did to hurt him was probably wanting, he was probably wanting his mommy.
00:53:49
Speaker
and I wasn't there." You see, Belinda has done a lot of reflection. In fact, she also wrote an open letter to the Herald Sun on what would have been Jaden's 18th birthday. The following is her letter, her reflection, and her plea. Quote, soon it should be Jaden's 18th birthday. I've been thinking about it for weeks.
00:54:16
Speaker
What would I do on the day he was born 18 years later without him here? What would I do on this day to remember my son and to do something in his memory? What I wouldn't give to have him here in the morning when he wakes up, spoil him with presents and be able to wish him a happy 18th birthday. Instead, it will be a day of no presents and no presents.
00:54:40
Speaker
Instead, I write this letter to you, Greg Domashevich. I have already pressed delete a million times while typing this because really, what do I say to you? There isn't a day that passes in my life that I don't say good morning or good night to Jaden. I don't always say it out loud and mostly keep my thoughts in my own head.
00:55:03
Speaker
What I can't understand is how you can look into that mirror each day and know what you did to my whole entire family. At first, when all this happened, it was all a bit of a blur. I never imagined in my wildest dreams that I would ever wake up to the nightmare that this has been and probably will be until my last breath. I'm now 38 years old. I still wake up every day and go to bed every night. I cry in silence. I think.
00:55:30
Speaker
in silence and I am somewhat trapped in my own mind because I don't want to burden anyone with what I feel or what I go through each and every single day. I've lost friends and my entire family because of the bitter and untrusting person I have become today. I take my children to school and every single day a part of me is scared they won't be there when I go pick them up.
00:55:54
Speaker
I rarely let them stay over at friend's houses in case something happens and in a way I spoil them so they have everything they need at home and won't want to go to friend's houses. I'll be making my children's school lunches in the morning and a part of me feels guilty that when I'm buttering that bread that I'm not making his lunch for him. I can be brushing my hair and wonder what his hair would be like. What would he look like? What would he smell like?
00:56:23
Speaker
I will be in the laundry, folding the washing and wondering what he would be wearing today. Where's his pile of clothes? I pretend he's sitting on the end of my bed in the middle of the night and I stare at the end of the bed hoping that this could all just be a nightmare from which I will someday wake up from. When Daniel Markham's killer was sentenced recently, a part of me was happy to see that pig rot in jail for the rest of his life. Yet a part of me was a little jealous that Jaden's case is still a mystery.
00:56:51
Speaker
You will never ever even come close to what a mother goes through when her child is taken from her. When Jaden was missing, I kept telling myself that he would turn 18 someday and find me. I honestly believed that, but he will be turning 18 soon and I know there will be no knock at the door. When Michael Roberts came up to the top of the hill at Blue Rock Dam that day, he was found.
00:57:16
Speaker
He sat me in his car and explained to me that it was Jaden's body that was found. I can't even begin to explain what hearing those words were like to a parent. When I lost Jaden, I lost myself.
00:57:29
Speaker
I have no real friends. I have no family left. I push people away because I find it extremely hard to trust anyone. Now, near my children. As soon as people get close to me, I start panicking and find reasons to eliminate them from my life rather than them hurt me or my children. I was asked recently how I would celebrate Jaden's birthday. Celebrate is used for happy times, happy memories, and I won't celebrate Jaden's birthday.
00:57:59
Speaker
because I can't. Please, before you die, write down what happened and store it somewhere. But please, if anything, for Jayden, let the truth be known to all. I know nothing that ever happens in the future. Nothing will ever bring him back to me, but we deserve to know what happened. So please, before your own life ends, please just tell the truth.
00:58:28
Speaker
Jaden deserves that much," end quote. And the author of the book is right. Throughout the entire trial, sadly, it seemed the focus was on anything and everything but the loss of an innocent child and honoring his memory. Everything instead became a spectacle, a circus. Author Michael Gleason wrote, quote, Jaden disappeared again.
00:58:57
Speaker
For a third time, the toddler had vanished, not from a couch in a lounge room, but as at the trial, lost in a fog of deceit, self-interest, and self-importance. Nothing else should have mattered more during the inquest than the toddler himself. For once, in his miserable life and awful, painful death, it should have only been about him.
00:59:24
Speaker
But Jaden had rarely been the central concern. His mother chose partying over childcare. Greg, at best, chose convenience over common sense. The public and media opted for the soap opera, over crushing tragedy." And I couldn't agree more. No one looked out for Jaden. No one stepped in to protect him.
00:59:53
Speaker
He seemed forgotten in the entire process. But we can work together to change that. While we can't go back in time and save Jayden, we can report when we see things. And we can make a vow to be the voice for those who do not have one. And let's raise those voices loudly.
01:00:16
Speaker
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01:00:46
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.