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Senior Leadership on the Price Writers Podcast Episode 43
31 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of the Price Writer Podcast, Jeremy Keating and Catrin Townsend discuss Senior Leadership: An Essential Guide for Actuaries by Julia Lessing.
This is a leadership book designed to be worked through rather than skimmed, using practical exercises, reflections, and prompts drawn from real leadership situations. We explore what changes as you move from management into senior leadership, why leadership becomes less technical and more people-focused, and how often our stated values differ from how we actually spend our time.
The conversation also touches on the importance of thinking deeply rather than reacting quickly, and whether senior leadership is something you truly want or simply the next step you have been aiming for.
This episode is for actuaries and pricing professionals who are stepping into senior roles, aspiring to them, or already there and reflecting on how leadership works in practice.
Price Writers transforms pricing professionals into the most respected leaders in insurance.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Price Writer Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
it not just a book. It's an M&S book.
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Price Writer podcast with Jeremy Keating and me, Katrin Townsend. Join us as we explore and discuss the world of insurance-related books, offering our insights and recommendations.
Exploring 'Senior Leadership' by Julia Lessing
00:00:20
Speaker
And today we're talking about Senior Leadership, an essential guide for actuaries by the fabulous and wise Julia Lessing. Jeremy, the title sounds pretty straightforward and kind of does what it says in the tin, but give us a quick summary of the book and its features.
00:00:38
Speaker
ah So this is Julia's second book, and in some way it's a sequel to the first book. This one looks at an actually taking a senior leadership role. So the first book looked at moving into a management role, and this book looks at going up to the next level from that. As I've said before, a lot of us are taught to a very high level, our technical side, but sometimes our management, our leadership education has been close to zero, actually. And this is filling that gap. So if you're about to become a senior leader or you want to do that and you want to find out what it might be like, this is a book for you.
00:01:16
Speaker
What I really liked about this book compared to her previous one is this is not just a book. This has links. It has worksheets. has links to Julia's podcast and lots of interactive content. and I read it on an e-book. So for me, this was as simple as clicking on a link.
00:01:35
Speaker
And I really liked that because it actually encouraged me to slow down and do the exercises as I was reading. This book is not a long book. You can read it in couple of days, maybe. But if you take each of the worksheets and really think through them, then there is so much here.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely, Katrin. It's a book that you work through. Similar to the first book, it's an activity rather than something you just read. and I think that's great because you can, as say, read it fairly swiftly. But working through all the material, that's something you can do at work.
00:02:11
Speaker
in real situations and learn from and develop as you go. And it is being interactive with multimedia. So there are plenty of interviews in there, including your own interview with Julia on her podcast, where you talk about your experience as a leader.
00:02:27
Speaker
I don't think there are enough activity books for adults, are there? There are loads activity books for kids. But what I loved about that is that it's not necessarily all about having the right answer.
00:02:41
Speaker
Julia uses this learn, apply, reflect model throughout the book. She used it in her previous book as well. But she gives you a bit of content, then really encourages you to work through it yourself, to sit in the struggle and the thinking it through.
00:02:58
Speaker
And I think that in itself is a leadership skill. Not, I know the right answer from a textbook, from my exams, but how to create space to think things through really deeply and how to use that to create not just short-term knee-jerk reactions, but to really navigate difficult situations proactively and strategically for the good of a whole team, not just yourself.
00:03:29
Speaker
I actually think that's the leadership skill that she's really bringing out in this book, even more so than the first. more In the interest of full disclosure, I did review the book before it came out and both of us have contributed quotes to the text and it does a link to the podcast we've done with Julia in the past. But you know, Arcee, especially me, I have no poker face, so you will be getting absolute honest opinions in this podcast.
Leadership and People Management
00:03:56
Speaker
um But before we get to that, Jeremy, you were head of pricing for a big team at a global insurer for for quite a few years. How do you think that senior leadership is different to lower levels of management in terms of skills and in terms of the day-to-day?
00:04:15
Speaker
The really big difference is that most of your day becomes much more focused on people. And that's really a way in which the roles change the more senior you go. So particularly for people like us who are technical, what's interesting about leadership roles is how much it becomes more about the people. So I referenced a book and just the last time were on the podcast called The Score Takes Care of Itself. And again, it's a bit like that. You have to put in place the structures in order that the prices take care of themselves. And the more into leadership you get, the more it feels like that. You're responsible for something that you cannot physically work yourself because there's just too many moving parts to a big pricing process. to really expect one person to actually have that ability to know all the details about it. So you become more and more reliant on other people and you become more and and more and reliant on your own skills to put the right people and processes in place so that you can rely on the people and processes around you.
00:05:19
Speaker
One metaphor I've used a lot is the idea of like rowing really hard. I to use a lot of work. And I see management as, you know, sometimes you're rowing in the boat really hard yourself. Sometimes you're the, I'm not a rower.
00:05:33
Speaker
I want to say coxswain. don't know. The one who sits and is directing and shouts instructions within the boat. Yeah, but like that's the cox. Excellent. Okay. And um see, who says we can't do sports metaphors at price riding?
00:05:47
Speaker
There's probably at least somebody somewhere saying, it's not, it's somebody, you've got the name wrong. You pronounced it wrong. Let us know in the comments, you know what this sports thing is. Okay.
00:05:58
Speaker
But the point is, is that I feel like senior managers are more like the people who build the boat in the first base. Obviously that's what's critical parts of being the fastest.
00:06:10
Speaker
But you're not actually in the boat itself, so you kind of set it going, but you actually have to let it go and let someone else then power it necessarily. And I think for me, that's the difference between manager and director
Aligning Personal Values with Leadership
00:06:27
Speaker
or above. So, Katrin, you are in many ways the target market for a book like this. What did you particularly like about it?
00:06:36
Speaker
but Lots of things that I really liked about this. So one of the things was that it started with values. I think that was so important. And I liked that it started with the idea of not just like, what are your values? Because everyone has values that we might just go to, or maybe their company values or whatever.
00:06:54
Speaker
But I liked how Julia framed it as how do you spend your time and money Because both at work and in our personal lives, we often, or I often feel like sometimes I don't spend my time how I want to be spending my time, how it aligns with what I say my values are. We've all had times like this, right?
00:07:15
Speaker
When your condor is just meeting back to back and you're like, I'm not getting done. The things that I say are important because I'm doing so much of other stuff. So I love that she really highlighted that our sense of self doesn't always align to our reality on the ground.
00:07:34
Speaker
And i think that creates a lot of guilt and also a bit of shame. Like, you know, if you say that you're an environmentalist, but actually... This is the thing for me, you're actually not very good at taking your reusable cup everywhere with you.
00:07:49
Speaker
it can create a real sense of guilt. And if you that constantly happens systematically in your job, you're going to find a real dissonance and sense of discomfort in your job, I think. So I thought that was firstly a really super strong start. I loved it.
00:08:06
Speaker
What about unpacking the thought leadership side and the approach that are available for that? Yeah, I like the thought leadership chapter because I feel like thought leadership is something we say quite a lot or you hear a lot on LinkedIn or at conferences.
00:08:20
Speaker
But what exactly is a thought leader? And that also really taps into the idea of like, if you want to start showing some higher level leadership... but you're not currently in that role. you know If you're reading this book with an aspiration to be promoted rather than already being in that position, i really liked how she gave some very clear examples of how you can use thought leadership to increase your chances of being promoted, but also do so in a way that doesn't make you seem...
00:08:50
Speaker
a bit rogue, yeah but actually really taps into your company's values and objectives. I thought that worked really well. And I thought just generally, on't everyone is going to get some really great ideas for wording things from this book. Everyone, even if...
00:09:06
Speaker
you've been a CEO far for decades, you know, there's so many great phrases that as I was reading through, i was like, oh, I'm going to have make a note of that. One of them was if you're dealing with people above you, if you're trying to manage upwards maybe,
00:09:22
Speaker
And you can see someone struggling saying, what help do you need that perhaps I can do for you? ah really like that phrasing, having seen that situation a few times. So there's lots of little things like that, that you'll just want to keep a pen and paper for nearby to write down some of these great phrases.
Negotiation and Resources in Leadership
00:09:39
Speaker
I also thought the negotiation chapter is excellent. Honestly, I think that's, it's such a strong chapter because again, it's something that I always felt like wasn't really my job, but i ended up doing something.
00:09:52
Speaker
untrained and probably a bit badly so i think that is really well done I think it's something that is not taught to people in any way and in a sort of British culture we have a habit of wanting to avoid any negotiating or it's something that some people do and we don't really know how to deal with it and how to do and things but actually kind of what what we might term trading is is quite a common way of behaving actually. And usually if we take a win-win attitude to these things, then it's a good good way of behaving.
00:10:25
Speaker
I also really like the links and the activities. I like that it was a clicking link in the ebook because, you know, i am no patient for going to computer and to type in a URL. Like that just, that just isn't going happen.
00:10:41
Speaker
So I quite like that Junia has got you covered and she's made it easy for you to do the work. She just really deeply understands our work.
00:10:52
Speaker
all of her examples, all of her case studies, you're like, oh yeah, I i know. that I've seen that happen before. Everything she writes is so relatable because she's been there.
00:11:03
Speaker
And yeah, i I love that this is just another way that she's like, I know you're busy. Let's give you some links, you know, of stuff that's really relevant. She doesn't overwhelm you with extra content.
00:11:15
Speaker
She manages to integrate it really seamlessly within the book. So I... Yeah, I love it Okay, was there anything you felt was missing from the book, Katrin? Anything you're hoping is going to be in in Julia's third book?
00:11:31
Speaker
One thing that I thought would be a really nice addition, although I see that it's probably not quite in scope, is do you actually really want to be a senior leader?
00:11:45
Speaker
You see, I thought that as well. I think the book's useful for showing you if you are in management, what your job might be like if you do just decide to go into senior leadership. And as an aside, do you think it's a real thing? Because I think people used to in the past, it was like, if you're not aiming to be CEO, you're failing, basically. Where people do seem to be a bit more nail-like. do you know what? actually don't want promotion.
00:12:07
Speaker
I remember when I started my career thinking i would really like to be an M3. That was the, you know, all the companies on different levels. like but It was senior actuary. I was in a reserving team. started out, so it was like a senior actuary level. So not the chief actuary, because I thought, wow, well that would be a lot of pressure.
00:12:27
Speaker
But I thought senior actuary, that might be the sweet spot. You know, work life balance-wise, et cetera. I remember thinking that, and I think I said it to a few people, it's But I do think that that discussion is missing in this book just because...
00:12:45
Speaker
Actories in particular, I mean, I know this is true for all pricing professionals as well, but particularly actories, because there is a set exam course. and You're so used to following the instructions. You're so used to following the path.
00:13:01
Speaker
You do this exam, then you do these exams. then once you've done these exams, you do the next thing. And then you're a qualified actuary. And then you just go up, up, up. And it's just a very linear career. written yeah o But for a lot of us,
00:13:14
Speaker
It's the technical challenge and the doing cool stuff that excites us and is actually what we would want to spend our time doing.
00:13:26
Speaker
And as you've said, that doesn't really chime with senior leadership, which is a lot more people focused. Having to deal with people constantly being responsible for a really large team. Wow, that that feels like a lot.
00:13:40
Speaker
I do wonder whether that could have been brought out a little bit more explicitly. I mean, she does go into the idea of personal values that you bring to leadership at the beginning of the book.
00:13:52
Speaker
But I think that first question, which is, why do you want senior leadership? It's something we don't talk about enough. Is it just status or power? Or to say that you have been civil rights officer, or is it the money? or is it something else? You want more control over other people's decisions? I don't know.
00:14:13
Speaker
I think that this is really missing, and I think that's why a lot of people... feel unfulfilled by the job that they really want. Like, you know, you set yourself a goal to be at whatever level and then once you've achieved you're like, actually this isn't doing doing the spot. Yeah, yeah. You set yourself a goal to be a certain level and then when you get there, you're like, oh, this actually isn't fulfilling.
00:14:34
Speaker
or as fulfilling as I thought it was. It's sometimes because we were so set on that linear path. I think, interestingly, so I know you've heard this before, but there's a concept that people often reach the level where they are at their most incompetent.
00:14:48
Speaker
sagging you like this phone i nothing yeah So you reach the level where nobody would promote you any higher. So therefore that must be the point at which you you are unable to do anything else. So it's like your point of least competence.
00:15:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's, I can't remember. I think it's part of the Dunning-Kruger analysis of workplaces, actually. i actually don't think that's right, but I do think people tend to reach a level where they're at the point where they don't want to be any less happy.
00:15:14
Speaker
Does that make sense? So it's like, I know if I go and manage a bigger team, I'm not going to enjoy that, but I'm currently paid this amount, which is the most I can get out of this without being unhappy. So they don't want to move higher for that reason.
00:15:29
Speaker
I'm not saying everyone, but I'm saying there's definitely a certain number of people I think reach that level of like kind of minimum acceptable unhappiness in their roles. Wow. We are optimistic today. Um,
00:15:43
Speaker
you know what yeah the gt The really good news is that as because the book has all these interactive links, it gives the opportunity for the book to grow, as it were. um Yeah. Whether that's a third book, fingers crossed, or whether it's just some links to explore this idea a bit more. I think that would be something really valuable.
00:16:06
Speaker
Which Junior's books do you
Managing Upwards and Long-term Vision
00:16:08
Speaker
prefer? This is a hard question. Because obviously they're for slightly different levels of experience. But would do you recommend one over the other? oh Well, think it's difficult to choose one you prefer. But probably this one, i think I can see more parallels to how I would find it useful. Particularly managing upwards can be quite difficult, especially more senior you you get. And dealing with the fact that you don't have your hands on a lot of the levers... So the interesting thing is you were talking about how people accumulate power is they go upwards and maybe that's true, but you you lose day to day power, you gain long term power and you kind of have to have a long term vision to go with that.
00:16:46
Speaker
Otherwise, like you said, people might not enjoy the role because often what you're implementing is something that you know is going to be months in the making. So you don't have that instant feedback of, yes, I achieved this and that today. you You might achieve a small part of that. Like I discussed this thing and got it signed off and agreed. And almost in a way, that instant feedback is smaller.
00:17:12
Speaker
But over the long term, what you see you've achieved is bigger. So, so I'm just saying that different mindsets of people, I think. So in that way, I find the second book more speaks more to me as to where I am in my life.
00:17:26
Speaker
and That's a really interesting concept because in a previous role, we had like a team totalizer. great idea. to To monitor like our quick wins and how much we were adding to the profitability.
00:17:43
Speaker
And this was just another thing that I was doing in my team just to motivate the team. So whenever we did a quick bit of analysis, it would come up with an anonymized profit and attach to it. We topped those up. And I remember thinking like,
00:17:56
Speaker
Feeling a little bit sad that I wasn't on the totalizer. I always have like the worst score on the totalizer because as a manager, you have the least time to get it done. ah do see that there is a slight difference, isn't there, between, yes, you have more power in some ways. like In some ways, I think actually...
00:18:15
Speaker
Pricing managers and probably senior analysts probably have the most power in terms of tooling decisions, model methodology decisions, it kind of stuff. Like they're probably going to have the biggest sway on that. Like even if you told everyone that they've got to code up stuff in R, they might not do it.
00:18:34
Speaker
and You can't really force people to do that. Whereas, yeah, it is slightly different. I think i like that perspective.
Transitioning to Managerial Roles
00:18:43
Speaker
For me, I think the first book is a total must read.
00:18:46
Speaker
really She does reference for the first book a few times in this one. But the reason I think the first book is a must read is because I think the step up from mostly technical work to mostly managerial work is huge.
00:19:00
Speaker
And most people are totally unprepared for it. So but that I would probably say that book. I also feel like there's quite a lot of books out there that are about senior leadership, like CEO types, duh.
00:19:16
Speaker
Whereas there aren't many books that really understand the nuance of actuarial work, that it's both technical and innovative, but also highly regulated.
00:19:27
Speaker
And, you know, we want to be innovative, but we also have to be quite prudent in a lot of our assumptions and explain those. So I thought her first book really hit the difficulty that, you know, i in terms of like,
00:19:46
Speaker
It is kind of a, maybe not unique, but it's definitely a difficult situation. I pondered this myself. I suppose it can't be unique because there's so many other things. But I would say even in a lot of technical roles like maths or engineering or things, you know if the thing you've made works or doesn't.
00:20:06
Speaker
But actually it was quite hard because... Somebody can always come along and say, well, I think this assumption could be that assumption. that You could change this or change that. and And those are entirely reasonable challenges that you do have to talk through.
00:20:20
Speaker
So I think in that way, it's actually really is very different to other words. And so often time is the only test for us. Whereas I suppose for engineering, if you build a bridge and then you stress test it, whether that's simulated or not, you're going to know literally the next day if that bridge is...
00:20:44
Speaker
sturdy i' but with creating ultimates or pricing there's nothing I can do to speed up the the final verdict here can't speed up time and get to the ultimate position quicker So, yeah I think for me, it is it is unique. That's kind of what we're in my book, right? Like, we are very special, Jeremy.
00:21:11
Speaker
But yeah, what i love about this book, though, is like this book has so many additional resources, extra links. It's going to be a book that you come back to again and again.
00:21:22
Speaker
i think if you read this book, the second book, if you read it in one sitting or even one week, I think you kind of missed the point of it. Yeah, I agree. I felt like you could read her first book in a shorter time frame, but felt like this one you really need to go through it slowly. It's when you combine the reading with the learn, apply, reflect model that she uses.
00:21:44
Speaker
Like that is where the insight is going to reveal itself. And I thought like even in the wellness chapter, up fatie i love that she has a wellness chapter even, you know, that was great.
00:21:55
Speaker
But in terms of the content, it was like, well, we all know we should eat well and move more. Like that's not you. But what Julia does is by implementing that learn, apply, reflect model, it's like, well, what stops you from eating well?
00:22:11
Speaker
What do you even mean by eating well? And she encourages you to really unpack that for yourself. And that is just where the magic really happened.
00:22:24
Speaker
Like for me, I love veggies and salads and stuff like that. Like if I had a personal chef, that would be amazing. But my kids aren't always a fan of that kind of... and I personally don't like making two meals or...
00:22:39
Speaker
more meals than that every night, you know? But that might not be the answer for everyone. Like, it might be that you don't think healthy food is flavorful or you prefer social eating out or you need a meal it's ready in 20 minutes or go, whenever it is, right?
00:22:53
Speaker
But each of those has a different answer. And... Just because it's your answer now, you might have a different answer in the future. So I felt like the first book was a little bit more prescriptive in that I felt like it gave you more answers.
00:23:12
Speaker
But the second book, it really gives you the right questions and then leaves you to think through it yourself.
00:23:23
Speaker
They're both really, really good.
Previewing 'Quiet' by Susan Cain
00:23:25
Speaker
So it's a definite recommend from us for people that are thinking about moving into senior leadership or if they've been in senior leadership, even for a while to develop their skills. Definitely.
00:23:35
Speaker
Yeah. and like you say, senior leadership in is super people focused. That can be pretty tough for us introverts. So we're going to be building on this idea next time by talking about Quiet by Susan Cain. And it's all about the power of introverts.
00:23:56
Speaker
Now, before we go, we have one very special thing to do. It's the first ever Price Writers Podcast shout out. It's to my brother, Ed, and my nephew, Hector. So it's just to say hello. Thanks a lot for supporting the show. I know that they listen to every episode and I just wanted to say hello to them live for everyone. There you go. Senior leadership books for actors. That's exactly what young family members want to listen to.
00:24:22
Speaker
Definitely. Thanks for joining us today and we hope to see you next time.
00:24:36
Speaker
Pricewriters transforms pricing professionals into the most respected leaders in insurance. Find out more about Pricewriters Pro by visiting pricewriters.com.